IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-08
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00:04:40 <Bad_Brett> hmm... these animation mechanisms are really confusing
00:04:51 <Supercheese> are you animating industries? objects?
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00:06:20 <Bad_Brett> houses and industries right now
00:07:18 <Supercheese> I've not worked on those
00:07:22 <Supercheese> just objects
00:07:40 * Supercheese learns what makefiles are
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00:08:19 <Bad_Brett> is there any difference?
00:08:46 <Bad_Brett> seems to be very simular
00:08:54 <Bad_Brett> maybe you can help :)
00:09:01 <Supercheese> whatcha tryin' ta do?
00:10:24 <Bad_Brett> Just randomly start and stop the animation... basic stuff
00:13:25 <Supercheese> I guess for that I'd just have a switch that checks extra_callback_info1 (random bits) and returns an animation frame if the random value is Foo
00:14:12 <Supercheese> and then another switch that check animation_frame and tells the animation to advance from Foo to Bar, and stop when Bar is reached
00:14:30 <Supercheese> then it'll remain stopped until the random is triggered again
00:14:39 <Supercheese> in which case it goes back to Foo
00:15:04 <Supercheese> sorry, I used variable names badly there
00:15:14 <Supercheese> I said Foo twice
00:15:20 <Supercheese> Foo_1 and Foo_2, if you will :P
00:15:25 <Bad_Brett> yeah thanks
00:16:38 * Supercheese does not understand makefiles
00:17:38 <Bad_Brett> then the question is... when the animation isn't active... should I use an empty sprite or is there any way i can use hide_sprite?
00:18:20 <Supercheese> hide_sprite: (anim_frame = stopped_frame)
00:18:31 <Supercheese> it'll return 1 if the frame is the stopped frame
00:18:40 <Supercheese> and zero for the other frames (which show the anim)
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00:19:47 * Zuu hands Supercheese automake aka autohell :-p
00:20:07 <Supercheese> Well, I've never used makefiles before venturing into the world of compiling OTTD
00:20:32 <Supercheese> now I'm trying to make a bundle so I can distribute a compiled win32 binary of New_map_features
00:20:47 <Supercheese> I'm conjecturing there's a way to have a makefile do that for me
00:20:56 <Supercheese> but not sure how to do that
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00:21:02 <Zuu> Well, as long as you don't have to write the makefile you don't need to really understand their syntax.
00:21:12 <Supercheese> I have to call it, though
00:21:18 <Supercheese> that's what I'm trying to figure out
00:21:30 <Zuu> I never got the win32 bundle makefile to work in Cygwin, so I've made bundles manually or using a python script.
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00:22:43 <Zuu> And I'm to found of cygwin to switch to msys and do not feel like having both of them in PATH.
00:23:09 <Supercheese> mingw32-make: Nothing to be done for ''
00:23:12 <Supercheese> :|
00:23:22 <Zuu> make --help
00:23:35 <Zuu> look for the parameter to specify the bundle makefile.
00:23:53 <Zuu> Makefile.bundle is probably the one you want and not
00:24:14 <Zuu> If you don't have Makefile.bundle, then you need to generate it first.
00:24:21 <Supercheese> Hmm
00:24:31 <Zuu> try ./configure
00:25:14 <Zuu> There is also a vbs to generate project files, but it might be that it only chreates the MSVS project files but not the win32 bundle makefile.
00:26:02 <Supercheese> well, what do I need to bundle manually so I can distribute the package?
00:26:09 <Supercheese> Probably a wiki article on that...
00:26:39 <Zuu> Most importantly you need to remember the license file + readme.
00:27:02 <Zuu> Other than that its ./bin and copy ./objs/.../openttd.exe to ./bin
00:27:40 <Supercheese> Makes sense
00:27:43 <Bad_Brett> woah! stopped_frame exists? that will make things much easier
00:27:47 <Supercheese> no no
00:27:54 <Supercheese> insert your frame there
00:27:59 <Zuu> You can also get a zip of a recent nightly to see what it include and compare to see if you forgot some file.
00:28:24 <Supercheese> You have your anim run from some frame to some other frame and stop at the final frame
00:28:36 <Supercheese> put the number of the stopped frame in that pseudocode
00:28:48 <Bad_Brett> ah ok
00:30:59 <Supercheese> Seems strange that the GPL is thrown in a file called COPYING, with no file extension
00:31:12 <Supercheese> probably some carryover from a decades-old practice or whatnot
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00:34:24 <Supercheese> .7z can conpress the bundle to 4.15 MB, whereas .zip only gets to 6.30 BM
00:34:42 <Supercheese> I wonder if other exotic algorithms can do better...
00:35:39 <Supercheese> Oh, LPAQ8 gets to 3.83 MB
00:35:51 <Supercheese> almost half the size of .zip
00:36:19 <Supercheese> of course, nobody has a decompressor for LPAQ8 :P
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00:37:29 <Bad_Brett> yippiekayey! it works!
00:37:36 <Supercheese> Huzzah!
00:38:37 <Bad_Brett> all thanks to supercheese!
00:38:49 <Supercheese> (and the devs who wrote NML, of course :P )
00:40:23 <Bad_Brett> um yeah... those guys :)
00:43:06 <Supercheese> Ok, hopefully I did this bundle properly:
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00:48:54 <Supercheese> So much for makefiles :S
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00:51:29 <Bad_Brett> I just discovered your new objects
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00:51:51 <Bad_Brett> quite awesome if you ask me
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00:52:50 <Supercheese> thanks :) I figured I just had to port the seagulls for OTTD, and in the process had lots more ideas, so I figured an object set was in order
00:53:16 <Supercheese> of course I am working on far too many projects at once, not to mention my university coursework :S
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00:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> university is overrated
00:56:13 <Supercheese> and that's why you have to do it
00:56:18 <Supercheese> people over-value it
00:56:26 <Supercheese> esp. employers
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00:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you know, we have a huge debate here over politicians and their doctor's degrees, after numerous cases of plagiarizing
00:59:16 <Bad_Brett> no company has asked for my degree... i'ts quite depressing actually
00:59:40 <Bad_Brett> cause now it feels like it was a waste of time
01:00:09 <Supercheese> Well, we do a lot of preparation for the professional Engineer's exam
01:00:23 <Supercheese> which you apparently must take if you want to be a proper Engineer
01:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> most cases it was in "talkative" sciences like politics, law, etc.
01:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> almost no cases of plagiarizing have become known in natural sciences
01:00:58 <Supercheese> Mechanical Engineer, not locomotive engineer :P
01:01:09 <Supercheese> although that would be cool
01:01:24 <Supercheese> I'd rather be a pilot though, much faster
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01:18:53 * Supercheese wonders if UKRS2, Av8, and the like will go open-source, but doubts it
01:19:04 <Supercheese> after all, they have successors planned
01:19:34 <Supercheese> oh wait, they're NFO, I wouldn't be able to do anything with the source anyway :P
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01:43:14 <Bad_Brett> the seagulls... can ships pass under them?
01:44:38 <Supercheese> Not directly under the tile they're placed on
01:44:52 <Supercheese> seagulls take up one tile that becomes impassible to ships
01:45:06 <Supercheese> they may fly over adjacent tiles, in which case ships can pass "under" them
01:45:48 <Supercheese> but the whole "flying outside the tile" thing introduces glitches
01:46:23 <Bad_Brett> tell me about it :P
01:46:44 <Bad_Brett> i hate when my nice shadows suddenly disappear
01:46:45 <Supercheese> I could just code them as ships, that way they woudlnt block shipping :P
01:46:56 <Supercheese> wouldn't*
01:47:37 <Bad_Brett> can you make objects become auto-doze:able?
01:47:53 <Supercheese> Like building something on them auto-removes them?
01:47:58 <Bad_Brett> yes
01:47:59 <Supercheese> Yeah, there's a flag for that
01:48:07 <Supercheese> I guess I didn't set it
01:48:11 <Bad_Brett> great
01:48:20 <Supercheese> OBJ_FLAG_ANYTHING_REMOVE
01:48:38 <Bad_Brett> can you make them appear randomly during the game?
01:48:42 <Supercheese> If you want a version with that flag set I can do that
01:48:51 <Supercheese> appearing randomly would require an addon Gamescript
01:48:58 <Supercheese> which I have yet to code :P
01:49:17 <Supercheese> also, I think Gamescripts need to support objects first, which I don't think they do
01:49:24 <Bad_Brett> it's should be okay since they're mean to be used near the water
01:50:09 <Supercheese> also: what do you think of the seagull sound effects? Too much, too frequent, not often enough, just right?
01:50:46 <Bad_Brett> i've had the sound turned off... let me check
01:54:04 <Supercheese> Yeah, I think I'll set the anything_remove flag for some objects
01:54:11 <Supercheese> small rocks, for example
01:54:21 <Supercheese> default rocks anything removes, I should keep that consistent
01:55:19 <Bad_Brett> i think the sound effects are good... i added like 15 of them and it's still not that disturbing :P
01:55:45 <Supercheese> Good, I was hoping I had the randomness adjusted well enough
01:56:11 <Bad_Brett> when i see this...
01:56:16 <Supercheese> I had to decrease the probability of sfx-generation so much :P
01:56:30 <Bad_Brett> i realise that openttd deserves a more advanced map editor that can handle these things
01:56:52 <Supercheese> Gamescripts can do a lot of neat stuff with the map, I think
01:57:13 <Supercheese> and the expanded scenario format coming Sometime™ should be helpful too
01:58:15 <Supercheese> Which objects should have the anything_remove flag set? Seagulls too?
01:58:56 <Bad_Brett> yeah, why not?
01:59:14 <Bad_Brett> it would be weird if they could be used as obstacles :P
01:59:23 <Supercheese> They already can in multiplayer
01:59:42 <Supercheese> Other companies can't remove other companies' objects, IIRC
01:59:58 <Supercheese> the anything_remove flag only applies to owner company
02:00:12 <Bad_Brett> haha
02:00:28 <Supercheese> that's why I included the parameter to have them only buildable in Scenario editor
02:01:04 <Supercheese> although there's not much difference between these objects and owned land...
02:01:21 <Supercheese> might as well set the flag, make it easier :)
02:01:22 <Bad_Brett> the name of the grf could be Supercheese' Birdemic - Shock and Terror :P
02:01:36 <Supercheese> Alfred Hitchcock all over again O_o
02:01:44 <Bad_Brett> :)
02:01:53 <Supercheese> btw I used to live a few miles from where they filmed The Birds
02:01:58 <Supercheese> Bodega Bay
02:02:23 <Supercheese> was before my time, though
02:02:24 <Bad_Brett> oh... so that's where you get your inspiration from?
02:02:37 <Supercheese> No, I was inspired by other computer games of the 1990s :P
02:02:42 <Supercheese> Isometric <3
02:02:49 <Supercheese> (well, dimetric, close enough)
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02:03:34 <Bad_Brett> yeah those were the days
02:04:55 <Supercheese> I'll keep the shipwreck non-auto-remove
02:05:14 <Supercheese> don't want to accidentally bulldoze some unsuspecting divers :P
02:07:06 <Bad_Brett> :D
02:08:36 <Supercheese> I should code a circling shark. Gotta add the music, too: dun dun..... dun dun....
02:09:00 <Supercheese> matter of fact, think I even promised to code that on Simuscape forums
02:09:05 <Bad_Brett> haha
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02:20:16 <Bad_Brett> hmmm... maybe i should OBJ_FLAG_ANYTHING_REMOVE on indian villages... because that's basically what happened :p
02:23:11 <Bad_Brett> though it might be politically incorrect
02:23:57 <Supercheese> XD
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03:47:34 <Flygon> Bad_Brett: It seems more profitable to just run a railway to the villages and build a station
03:47:42 <Flygon> Because apperantly in OpenTTD, everyone uses the same currency
04:20:56 <__ln__> GOOD MOR/EVENING
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04:33:02 <Flygon> __ln__: HYVAA HUOMENTA/YOTA
04:33:18 <Flygon> Or something like that
04:33:54 <__ln__> except for the missing umlauts, precisely like that
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08:05:23 <Supercheese> Anyone on here that has played with my Eyecandy Road vehicles grf, specifically the Horse & Rider?
08:05:31 <Supercheese> I'm looking for some feedback
08:05:51 * peter1138 puts a microphone in front of Supercheese' speakers
08:06:03 <Supercheese> External feedback. Also, ow, my ears.
08:06:39 <Supercheese> Hmm, adjective "external" still insufficient
08:06:45 <Supercheese> Y'all know what I mean
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08:41:38 <Supercheese> No 1.3.0-beta2 announce yet?
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08:52:46 <andythenorth> wot no pikka pokka?
08:52:47 <andythenorth> meh
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11:16:31 <peter1138> quiet
11:17:24 <SpComb> QUIET
11:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> QUIETSCH!
11:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (i somehow doubt these words are etymologically related this time :P)
11:45:36 <planetmaker> :-)
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12:18:47 <planetmaker> hm... openttd bootstrap seems to download zbase. I thought it would download OpenGFX?
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12:19:19 <planetmaker> was that changed (current trunk checkout)?
12:24:29 <planetmaker> he, great. and after 275MB download I get a memory access failure...
12:24:50 <planetmaker> rather segfault
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12:39:26 <planetmaker> hm, only an issue with bootstrap. Subsequently it works just fine...
12:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how does the bootstrap work anyway? client says "i'm missing a baseset, bananas give me one" - and bananas says "hmm, today i'm feeling like zbase"?
12:43:49 <planetmaker> Honestly, I don't know
12:44:45 <planetmaker> But as it's afaik not explicitly specified... it might indeed work like that
12:50:05 <planetmaker> first entry in available content package seems to be selected. So it depends on what the bananas server sends
12:55:19 <planetmaker> same actually as OpenTTD selects a random one when no specific base set is specified... maybe it should check them for completeness of sprites. Big hassle though
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13:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "According to Fox news, solar energy works in Germany so much better than in America, because they get much more sun"
13:59:44 <fjb_mobile> The Fox News version of truth...
13:59:49 <Flygon> ...
13:59:49 <Flygon> What
13:59:52 <Flygon> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
13:59:57 <Flygon> Someone
14:00:00 <Flygon> Please, give me a brick
14:00:07 <Flygon> I want to commit suicide with a brick >_>
14:00:20 <Flygon> Because that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
14:05:42 <fjb_mobile>
14:07:13 <planetmaker> sounds totally convincing, Eddi|zuHause ;-) Especially when I look out of the window right now :D
14:07:29 <blathijs> I wanted to say that it's probably true for some parts of the US, but Google Maps tells me that all of the US is at the same longitude or lower than Germany, so that's not it :-)
14:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: germany has about the same input of direct solar energy as alaska
14:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause>
14:08:33 <planetmaker> you surely mean lattitude, not longitude ;-). And lattitude... has mostly an impact on the annular distribution
14:09:08 <planetmaker> barring weather, ofc
14:10:03 <fjb_mobile> There was a study some time ago that showed that people watching Fox News had less knowledge about the world than people who were watching no news at all.
14:10:25 <planetmaker> yup, read that :-) Amused me
14:10:41 <blathijs> planetmaker: Ah, I always confused the two
14:12:00 <Flygon> Eddi: I am disapppointed Australia isn't on that map :P
14:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody cares about australia :p
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14:23:08 <Flygon> Eddi: In this case, we have a fantastic sunlight map
14:23:19 <Flygon> 90% of the country is basically a giant Arizona
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14:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: we have such a thing much closer... it's called Sahara
14:27:58 <Flygon> It's not as politically suitable, either
14:28:10 <Flygon> Where would you rather build a gigantic mass of solar panels?
14:28:26 <Flygon> Across a zone that's split across lots of small poor politically questionable countries?
14:28:44 <Flygon> Or a giant island that's a single nation that has no real economic or social issues?
14:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the current idea is to spread out the solar plants across as many north african countries as possible, to make political impact lower
14:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and then draw the power cable through italy
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14:33:38 <Pinkbeast> Also if you split it between multiple countries they have to form a cartel to screw you on price.
14:35:38 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hi, I just installed 1.2.3 on a new machine and went looking for one of my favorite NewGRFs - NUTS Unrealistic Train Set. It is not downloadable in the Online Content screen, despite it being in BaNaNaS ( Does anyone know why this might happen?
14:37:41 <michi_cc> Install 1.3.0 beta, 1.2.3 is too old for NUTS.
14:40:18 <Flygon> Eddi: Oh. Right. I thought the power was being generated for local purposes...
14:40:30 <Endymion_Mallorn> How stable is it, all joking aside? I'm not looking to have the game crash on me. Like, ever.
14:40:31 <Flygon> Here, we forget there's such a thing as "International electricity trade"
14:40:44 <Flygon> Because it's impossible to perform in Australia, PNG exempted
14:41:53 <dihedral> oi
14:42:12 <michi_cc> Endymion_Mallorn: You won't get that guarantee for any version, but the beta shouldn't be any worse than 1.2.3.
14:43:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright. So it's either go to the Beta or just get to the old machine and pull the folder off there with my USB drive, basically. Thanks.
14:44:00 <michi_cc> Somebody forgot to update the topic... Let's see if I can remember the DorpsGek command ;)
14:44:36 <michi_cc> @topic get 1
14:44:36 <DorpsGek> michi_cc: 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta1
14:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Endymion_Mallorn: if you have an old savegame, you should be able to pull the appropriate version that savegame used from bananas
14:44:50 <michi_cc> @topic set 1 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta2
14:44:50 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
14:46:28 <Endymion_Mallorn> Eddi: Getting a savegame and getting the whole newGRF would involve the same sneakernet process.
14:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably true :)
14:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> on other notes: what's with the Brits' obsession with horse meat lately?
14:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> they should be glad there's any meat at all in these products :p
14:49:26 <Pinkbeast> It's only a matter of time before Dobbin starts turning up in veggieburgers
14:49:43 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hrm. I 'unno. Alright, thanks all. have a good day.
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15:48:43 <Belugas> hello
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17:26:57 <NGC3982> Evening.
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17:51:33 <Alberth> plopp
17:52:19 <planetmaker> hi Alberth
17:52:54 <Alberth> evenink
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18:06:39 <Alberth> I wonder whether I should tell about light not being visible like in the second picture :)
18:07:37 <planetmaker> he :-)
18:17:19 <Terkhen> hello
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18:18:21 <peter1138> ouch
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19:12:52 <Wolf01> hellol
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19:22:25 <Alberth> hi di hi!
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19:44:28 <Sacro> \o/
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19:50:55 * Sacro is saddened by Pikka
19:51:01 <Pikka> :D
19:51:22 <Sacro> :(
19:51:29 <Pikka> trust me, shami kebab.
19:51:40 <Pikka> I probably know what I'm doing!
19:51:41 <Wolf01> Sacro is saddled by Pikka
19:52:26 <Sacro> Pikka: probably?
19:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> *must*get*image*out*of*head*
19:53:10 <Sacro> I love UKRS :(
19:53:10 <Pikka> probably.
19:53:18 <Sacro> And TAI
19:53:19 <Pikka> well, UKRS will still be there :)
19:53:28 <Sacro> now i followed your naming conventions
19:54:17 <Sacro> just last weekend I went out on an EE 'AL6' and a 4-6-2
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19:55:34 <Pikka> lucky you :P
19:56:03 <Sacro> 60009
19:56:07 <Sacro> well nice
19:56:41 <Supercheese> Isn't the 75 year anniversary of the steam speed record this year?
19:57:34 <NGC3982> You don't celebrate records.
19:57:37 <NGC3982> You beat them.
19:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't there been like 75 different steam speed records?
19:58:02 <NGC3982> I was just reading up on my literature collecting, and i noticed something i laughed a fair bit at.
19:58:06 <Supercheese> I mean the British A4 125 mph record
19:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly we have the fastest operational steam engine over here
19:58:51 <NGC3982> Back in 1980, Bill Gates bought the original Codex Leicester by da Vinci, for 30.8 million US dollars.
19:58:53 <Supercheese> German record was basically the same, like 124 mph, and German steamers' average stop to stop speeds were higher IIRC
19:59:06 <NGC3982> He then scanned it and included it with Microsoft Plus! for Windows 95.
19:59:09 <NGC3982> Money well spent.
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19:59:20 <Pikka> onion of seth efrica, hm? :)
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20:02:34 <Pikka> there he is now
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20:16:20 <Pikka> or perhaps he isn't
20:16:57 <Supercheese> He may be only 10%
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20:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if only 10% of andythenorth were here, it would be an, or th
20:26:43 <andythenorth> Pikka ponk
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20:26:44 <andythenorth> hello
20:27:07 <Pikka> hello
20:27:42 <andythenorth> so onions?
20:27:54 <Supercheese> I think a better measuring metric for andythenorth presence is TFT [Time to First Troll]
20:27:54 <Pikka> very
20:28:04 <Supercheese> ;)
20:28:20 <andythenorth> Pikka: btw I don't like onions, but that's an aside
20:28:46 <Pikka> talk about 10CC then :)
20:28:51 <Pikka> do you like 10CC?
20:29:12 <Supercheese> 10 cm³ may be a tad small
20:29:23 <Supercheese> model trains?
20:29:41 <Supercheese> :P
20:29:51 <andythenorth> Pikka: yes I probly like 10CC
20:30:02 <andythenorth> 2 mins, food, wife sad if I don't eat it
20:30:19 <Pikka> dreadlock holiday and all that
20:30:34 <Pikka> I have to go, back in an hour or two
20:31:32 <andythenorth> :P
20:31:34 <andythenorth> k
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20:31:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24980 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-02-08 20:31:51 UTC)
20:31:58 <DorpsGek> -Fix: memory leak in corner case of handling encoded strings
20:32:54 <LordAro> evening all
20:33:02 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24981 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-02-08 20:32:56 UTC)
20:33:03 <DorpsGek> -Fix: handle corner case where an encoded string contains too many parameters more gracefully
20:34:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24982 /trunk/src/script/api (13 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-08 20:34:27 UTC)
20:34:34 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5465]: [Script] Crash when passing too many parameters
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20:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so that's like the reversal of my newgrf error :)
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20:52:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so vehicle R&D....?
20:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no way :p
20:53:16 <andythenorth> because...?
20:53:19 <Supercheese> implement in the newgrf..?
20:53:26 <Supercheese> Would be feasible-ish
20:53:28 <andythenorth> don't care about where to implement
20:53:30 <andythenorth> is it good?
20:53:40 <andythenorth> ;)
20:53:43 <Supercheese> More importantly, is anyone motivated to code it
20:53:47 <Supercheese> 'good' is relative
20:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i haven't seen any good concept yet
20:54:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: me neither
20:54:35 <andythenorth> is knowing the forthcoming vehicles a meta-sploit? :P
20:54:37 <Supercheese> Hmm, I think there's a lack of variables for an R&D implementation
20:54:46 <andythenorth> or is learning the game just 'learning the game'
20:54:55 <andythenorth> in can play without knowing the maps
20:54:57 <andythenorth> but you lose
20:54:59 <andythenorth> you learn the maps
20:55:01 <andythenorth> you win
20:55:20 <andythenorth> you have to know where the keys are, where the powerups are, where the monsters are
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21:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i was always running along the walls trying to find secret doors ;)
21:11:31 <LSky`> im trying to compile openttd using mingw, i intend to patch the client after i figure out how to, what method should i use to obtain the openttd source code?
21:12:03 <andythenorth> hmm
21:12:08 <andythenorth> any secret doors in ottd?
21:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> LSky`: svn if you don't want to program larger patches yourself, hg or git otherwise
21:12:57 <LSky`> 'program larger patches' meaning?
21:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does scenario_developer count? :)
21:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> LSky`: if you have to ask, then it's probably a "no" :p
21:14:03 <LSky`> so i should use tortoise svn, or something like that?
21:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that should work
21:14:16 <andythenorth> secret doors would be more like 'provide service for this town and unlock a new engine'
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21:36:47 <andythenorth> where is pikka to then?
21:37:32 <andythenorth> herp, what's that faster python called?
21:37:44 <Sacro> ctthon?
21:37:48 <andythenorth>
21:37:49 <Sacro> cython
21:38:00 <andythenorth> wonder if it makes nml faster
21:38:25 <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to get it and figure out how to virtualenv it
21:38:27 <andythenorth> but I should :P
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21:47:22 <andythenorth> meh, pypy buildout segfaults
21:47:34 <andythenorth> boring
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22:05:17 <frosch123> night
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22:07:34 <peter1138> python written in python?
22:08:49 <andythenorth> python written in 'faster' :P
22:11:07 <andythenorth> averaged across a number of programs, it benchmarks apparently at 5.6 times faster
22:11:40 * Pikka is back or so
22:11:43 <andythenorth> even 2x faster for nmlc would be a significant reduction in 'meh, waiting'
22:11:46 <andythenorth> hello or so
22:12:01 <Pikka> r&d is yuck
22:12:05 <andythenorth> so 10CC?
22:12:07 <Pikka> complexity is yuck
22:12:09 <Pikka> yes, 10CC
22:12:12 <andythenorth> hat
22:12:14 <andythenorth> that
22:12:25 <andythenorth> probably good right?
22:13:28 <Pikka> so what about 10CC? :P
22:14:00 <andythenorth> sounds ok
22:14:04 <andythenorth> I like most of your stuff
22:14:07 <andythenorth> so why not eh?
22:15:08 <andythenorth> there has been too much "more"
22:15:15 <andythenorth> there should be some "less"
22:18:48 <Pikka> :)
22:19:17 <andythenorth> maybe I should start BANDIT again
22:19:21 <Pikka> of course, I'll need peter1138 to write me a buy-menu-selection callback. ;)
22:19:23 <Pikka> maybe
22:19:25 <andythenorth> yes
22:19:36 <andythenorth> what for though?
22:19:45 <andythenorth> :P
22:19:54 <andythenorth> maybe we need less callbacks too
22:19:57 <andythenorth> or fewer
22:19:58 <Pikka> amongst other things, so we can play a game where you use british trains and I use american ones
22:20:02 <andythenorth> yeah that
22:20:11 <andythenorth> that's what I want to do with BANDIT
22:20:19 <andythenorth> it was an Original Goal For The Set
22:20:24 <Pikka> I can already make it so you can't start american trains and I can't start british ones, but removing them from the buylist altogether would be so much cleaner
22:21:04 <andythenorth> so is this what I get for asking for more diesels in UKRS 2? :P
22:21:07 <Pikka> and it's not as if different players having different buylists doesn't already exist in TTD, ie the prototype designs
22:21:10 <Pikka> :P maybe
22:21:23 <andythenorth> hey ho
22:21:45 <andythenorth> still, I think there's a game balance / boredom issue once we hit 200x
22:22:00 <andythenorth> HEQS has same, so will BANDIT
22:22:07 <Pikka> well, then you stop playing once you hit 200x. ;)
22:22:10 <andythenorth> yeah that
22:22:22 <andythenorth> play 1870-2010, then go to sleep
22:22:29 <Pikka> nope
22:22:35 <andythenorth> 1905-2005? :P
22:22:54 <Pikka> 10CC starts 1900, and even then you only get one loco per set
22:23:07 <andythenorth> orly
22:23:09 <andythenorth> how evil
22:23:18 <Pikka> 1920 to start with two
22:23:21 <Pikka> well
22:23:25 <Pikka> 19th century is boring
22:23:27 <Pikka> slow trains
22:23:27 <andythenorth> slow
22:23:29 <Pikka> no RVs
22:23:31 <Pikka> no aircraft
22:23:49 <andythenorth> trams?
22:23:57 <andythenorth> very slow ships
22:23:58 <Pikka> and to be "realistic" you have to start with half the industries missing
22:24:02 <Pikka> trams are yuck
22:24:06 <andythenorth> eek
22:24:10 <andythenorth> also the industry problem smells
22:24:13 <andythenorth> it smells in FIRS
22:24:24 <Pikka> well
22:24:32 <Pikka> I coded one industry for TaI/Gecko/whatever
22:24:53 <Pikka> and since I started testing it I've stripped out about 50% of the code as entirely unnecessary
22:25:03 <Pikka> I think I have about another 25% to go :)
22:25:10 <andythenorth> what's gone / what's left?
22:25:48 <Pikka> I had a whole thing where the industry had an internal "balance" and would shut down/upgrade depending on how much "money" it had
22:25:53 <andythenorth> oh yeah that
22:25:55 <andythenorth> you liked that
22:26:02 <Pikka> that's all gone
22:26:11 <andythenorth> probably for the best
22:26:15 <andythenorth> production change over time?
22:26:40 <Pikka> will possibly still be there, but a /lot/ simpler than I originally planned
22:26:44 <andythenorth> I'm stealing it
22:26:48 <andythenorth> so it might not be there :P
22:26:53 <andythenorth> if I've burgled it
22:27:00 <Pikka> also, starting in 1900 means
22:27:11 <Pikka> oil industries, indeed all industries, from the start
22:27:37 <andythenorth> easier right?
22:27:39 <Pikka> "gasworks" can go and just be a power station with earlier graphics
22:27:42 <andythenorth> no fucking around with broken chains
22:27:54 <andythenorth> no fucking around trying to figure out how to cripple some industries
22:28:43 <Pikka> all in all, I want to gamify and simplify
22:29:54 <andythenorth> no model trainset?
22:31:19 <Pikka> nope
22:31:52 <andythenorth> alright, so you have a trains plan, fine. Trains can have more or fewer wagons and crap, and you can build the route to suit performance and such
22:31:57 <andythenorth> RVs are simple
22:32:02 <andythenorth> I should just figure BANDIT out
22:32:04 <andythenorth> but planes and boats?
22:32:12 <andythenorth> what do you do with AV8?
22:32:17 <andythenorth> what do I do with FISH 2?
22:32:27 <Pikka> not quite worked that out yet
22:32:34 <andythenorth> nah me neither
22:33:06 <andythenorth> FIRS gives AV8 helicopters and small planes a cargo role
22:33:23 <andythenorth> but only one helicopter and 2 plane types are needed for that
22:33:29 <andythenorth> and how many big planes are useful?
22:33:39 <andythenorth> 737 / jumbo / concorde?
22:33:40 <Pikka> for av9, it's probably just a progression from little and slow to biggish and fast
22:33:59 <andythenorth> time progression, or model progression?
22:34:13 <Pikka> the decision is "aircraft" vs "train", an additional decision between "aircraft" is largely unnecessary
22:34:43 <Pikka> model progression, no generational stats :P
22:35:00 <andythenorth> so how many plane types in any given year?
22:35:04 <andythenorth> 2, 3?
22:35:05 <andythenorth> 1?
22:35:49 <Pikka> obviously the models have to overlap somewhat, but it will usually be the case that the newest is always the "best".
22:36:07 <andythenorth> I think for planes capacity is a factor
22:36:25 <andythenorth> but only small | big
22:36:37 <andythenorth> 1 chopper, 2 planes, done
22:36:37 <Pikka> yes, perhaps late game there will be a turboprop for smaller routes or something, and helicopters of course
22:36:45 <Pikka> but overall, yep, that's about the size of it
22:36:51 <andythenorth> herp ships
22:37:03 <andythenorth> stupid autorefit :)
22:37:08 <Pikka> :)
22:37:17 <andythenorth> FISH was small
22:37:25 <andythenorth> FISH 2 got needlessly big
22:37:37 <andythenorth> due to Tankers Must Be Model Types
22:38:33 <andythenorth> so 29 ships in 1972
22:38:43 <Pikka> that's a few too many, I think
22:39:01 <andythenorth> about 20 too many
22:39:11 <Pikka> perhaps about 25 too many
22:39:20 <andythenorth> especially if I could figure out the player-gets-ship-types thing
22:39:28 <andythenorth> so player 1 gets canal boats
22:39:36 <andythenorth> player 2 gets sea ships
22:39:37 <andythenorth> etc
22:39:37 <Pikka> eh
22:39:45 <Pikka> does that even make sense?
22:40:05 <andythenorth> dunno, haven't tried it :)
22:40:21 <Pikka> anyway, I think whatever you do, FISH is going to be a larger set than I would design under my new regime ;)
22:40:33 <andythenorth> I am too sentimental
22:40:39 <andythenorth> I like the weird things like the log tug
22:40:46 <Pikka> :)
22:41:09 <andythenorth> otherwise it's all a bit...sterlie
22:41:13 <andythenorth> serilel?
22:41:14 <andythenorth> sterile :P
22:41:18 <andythenorth> fingers fingers
22:41:27 <Pikka> well, one thing I may not have mentioned, and may write another blog post about...
22:41:34 <andythenorth> orly?
22:41:58 <Pikka> aside from the lengthwise shortening, which is unavoidable
22:42:23 <Pikka> I'm abandoning TTD's crappy mis-shapen diagonals and drawing vehicles properly
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22:42:53 <andythenorth> interesting
22:43:00 <Pikka> which means that everything has to be drawn from scratch
22:43:06 <andythenorth> will they still be teeny-tiny?
22:43:11 <Pikka> a factor in not wanting to do many vehicles, you think? ;)
22:43:23 <andythenorth> :P
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22:43:32 <Pikka> the - and | views remain the same size
22:43:41 <Pikka> the diagonal views look bigger
22:43:54 <andythenorth> oh
22:44:02 <andythenorth> well if you're doing that, it saves me redrawing HEQS
22:44:07 <Pikka> :]
22:44:08 <andythenorth> which I drew wrong, from ignorance :P
22:44:18 <Pikka> you drew right, from ignorance? ;)
22:44:31 <andythenorth> I just drew how I thought it should be
22:44:40 <andythenorth> might be right or wrong :P
22:44:56 <andythenorth> no tankers gets FISH 2 down to 22
22:45:20 <andythenorth> ah
22:45:33 <andythenorth> ships have a capacity issue that I just can't get around
22:45:40 <andythenorth> and pax and freight ships are just different
22:45:46 <Pikka> what capacity issue?
22:46:02 <andythenorth> big ones and small ones are needed
22:46:08 <andythenorth> and running 10x small one is dull
22:46:21 <Pikka> if I were doing ships
22:46:25 <andythenorth> do mine
22:46:27 <andythenorth> I have the graphics :P
22:46:31 <andythenorth> and the code generator :P
22:46:39 <Pikka> you don't have sailing ships
22:46:41 <Pikka> :P
22:46:54 <andythenorth> they smell
22:46:58 <andythenorth> and are dead by 1900
22:47:16 <Pikka> except they aren't
22:47:26 <peter1138> just make them collide
22:47:28 <andythenorth> well someone was drawing sails
22:47:29 <peter1138> in newgrf
22:47:52 <Pikka> they were still building new pure-sail merchant ships in the 20th century
22:48:06 <Pikka> they were still running in commercial service up til the 1950s
22:48:13 <Pikka> anyway, who cares about realism? ;)
22:48:34 <andythenorth> drawing sails, meh
22:48:39 <andythenorth> assume no sails :P
22:48:40 <andythenorth> then what?
22:48:47 <Pikka> anyway, if I were doing ships, I'd have "ships" and "ferries"
22:48:57 <andythenorth> I have that, plus 'stuff'
22:49:11 <Pikka> ships are slow and big and carry stuff, ferries are small and fast and carry pax/mail (both would be nice, where's articulated ships?)
22:49:42 <andythenorth> k
22:50:16 <andythenorth> and you'd use same boats for canals / rivers, and for sea?
22:50:39 <Pikka> a sailing ship from 18whatever, steam from, eh, 1925, diesel from 1960, maybe a "modern" for 1990s or so, that's 4
22:50:54 <Pikka> yes
22:51:35 <andythenorth> too many ships in FISH 2 are there because of a nice photo
22:51:49 <andythenorth> or because it was easy to copy-paste-shorten something already drawn
22:52:18 <Pikka> ferries you've got a steamer from 19whatever, maybe another in the 30s, hovercraft, catermaran
22:52:31 <Pikka> maybe if you want a utility boat you can have one, steam early, diesel later, that's 2
22:52:38 <Pikka> 10 ships, do you need more?
22:52:43 <andythenorth> I probably do
22:52:45 <peter1138> 200 ships
22:52:51 <peter1138> with short lives
22:52:53 <andythenorth> I'm not ready to be that ruthless yet :)
22:52:56 <peter1138> cos they sink
22:53:02 <Pikka> I am :]
22:53:03 <andythenorth> sinking ftw
22:53:04 <andythenorth> I like editing stuff down
22:53:05 <Pikka> you sink, peter
22:53:08 <peter1138> YES
22:53:14 <andythenorth> FIRS Basic is kind of better than big FIRS
22:53:17 <Pikka> where's my buylist callback? ;)
22:53:22 <andythenorth> is it not done yet>
22:53:33 <andythenorth> Pikka: cbs are easy
22:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf does 10CC mean anyway?
22:53:36 <andythenorth> do it yourself
22:53:40 <Pikka> maybe I will
22:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds awfully confusable to 2CC
22:53:55 <andythenorth> just search for the climate availability stuff and mash it in there
22:53:57 <Pikka> I just figure peter could do it easier since he already has the knowhow and whatnot :)
22:54:08 <andythenorth> he just makes it up too
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22:54:28 <Pikka> 10CC UK buylist is
22:54:34 <Pikka> Victoria Crab Jubilee Class 37 Class 66 Class 86 Class 92 MetCam HST ElectroStar
22:54:39 <andythenorth> is the name a dirty joke?
22:54:48 <Pikka> not at all
22:54:48 <andythenorth> herp
22:54:52 <andythenorth> I'm going to make 5CC
22:54:59 <peter1138> 10 company colours?
22:55:14 <Pikka> 10 company coloured locos, or something
22:55:17 <andythenorth> Jinty, Pannier, Ivatt, Class 20, Class BLAH I DON'T KNOW
22:55:35 * andythenorth likes small trains
22:55:56 * Supercheese likes FISH with all its ships
22:55:56 <Pikka> well, the "flavour" of the UK trains is that they're fast but relatively unpowerful
22:56:10 <Pikka> if you want small and slow, there are other 10CC sets for that ;)
22:56:19 <andythenorth> SARS!
22:56:22 <andythenorth> and AUARS!
22:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: my point was for every fast expensive train there should be also a strong slow one and a slow cheap one
22:56:55 <Pikka> 10CC Pineapple is good
22:57:13 <Pikka> fastest non-electric is 60mph
22:57:19 <Pikka> fastest non-emu is 65 ;)
22:57:23 <Supercheese> I have FISH r953, year 1899 and I'm using 8/12 ship models available
22:58:11 <Supercheese> the diversity is desirable, IMO
22:58:20 <andythenorth> Supercheese: but by 2000, in FISH 2 there are 38 ships available
22:58:23 <andythenorth> all different
22:58:24 <andythenorth> but meh
22:58:51 <Pikka> Eddi: why?
22:59:01 <Supercheese> Well, the two hydrofoils are straight upgrades, and then the catamaran comes out and it's inferior in every way almost
22:59:10 <Supercheese> I dunno why you could use the catamaran...
22:59:13 <Supercheese> would*
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22:59:23 <Pikka> if every set has fast expensive and strong slow and slow cheap
22:59:31 <Supercheese> but I end most games before 1990 anyway :S
22:59:36 <andythenorth> Supercheese: cheaper, more pax, but yes
22:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: because you're going to have passenger service, freight service and feeder service in your game, and an engine suitible for one may not be suitible for the others
22:59:48 <andythenorth> the catamaran got drawn by a contributor, I had to fit it in
22:59:53 <Supercheese> well, that's fine then
22:59:54 <Pikka> then what's the difference between the sets?
23:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: they differ in how strong and how fast
23:00:11 <Supercheese> no work on your behalf to draw graphics = might as well include it
23:00:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: a big thing here is you're making n sets? to mix?
23:00:21 <andythenorth> ECS style?
23:00:22 <Supercheese> drawing graphics is, like, 98% of the time spent for me
23:00:24 <Pikka> well, not necessarily to mix
23:00:31 <Supercheese> code is cake
23:00:44 <andythenorth> Supercheese: you're doing objects right?
23:00:51 <Supercheese> I'm doing a few things at once
23:00:55 <Supercheese> objects being one
23:00:58 <andythenorth> objects: 98% drawing, 2% code
23:01:00 <Pikka> but to make the game more interesting. a game where the player has all the tools to do whatever they like perfectly optimally is a rather dull game. :)
23:01:07 <Supercheese> Eyecandy vehicles being another
23:01:24 <andythenorth> vehicle set: 60% drawing, 1% code, 39% being figuring out the fricking game balance, and endlessly shuffling crap around to make it make sense
23:01:35 <Supercheese> Well, no balancing needed for eyecandy vehicles :P
23:01:38 <andythenorth> :)
23:01:44 * Supercheese is sort of cheating in that regard
23:01:54 <Supercheese> Running costs? Purchase costs? Zero!
23:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: e.g. if i compare pre-WWII german engines to pre-WWII austrian engines, then the german version of the E18 (electric express engine) is slightly faster, but the austrian is slightly stronger
23:02:03 <andythenorth> Pikka: could you do this if you had contributors sending random graphics?
23:02:03 <Supercheese> reliability? who the fuck cares!
23:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but there is no reason why both sets couldn't offer a steam shunter at the same time
23:02:39 <Pikka> this is why I don't collaborate, andythenorth ;)
23:03:06 <andythenorth> herp
23:03:06 <Pikka> even UKRS2+ I regretted almost immediately :P
23:03:07 <andythenorth> yes
23:03:08 <Supercheese> Pikka: then what is UKRS2+?
23:03:10 <Supercheese> oh
23:03:13 <Supercheese> ninja'd
23:03:47 <andythenorth> I'm incredibly grateful for the help, but the game balance of FISH 2 and FIRS has been knocked out by contributions that I don't want to reject
23:03:53 <Pikka> yep
23:04:10 <Terkhen> good night
23:04:15 <andythenorth> if I reject them, I piss people off, and have to draw everything myself
23:04:15 <Supercheese> Honestly, if I had people submitting complete graphics and vehicle statistics, I'd code them into a vehicle set. I think I volunteered for just that with a train set but I've yet to hear from planetmaker
23:04:16 <Pikka> goodnight Terkhen
23:04:17 <andythenorth> bye Terkhen
23:04:30 <Pikka> but it's no fun coding stuff you're not interested in
23:04:49 <Supercheese> well, true enough
23:04:56 <andythenorth> time for SmallFISH
23:05:01 <Supercheese> FRY
23:05:07 <andythenorth> yeah
23:05:07 <Supercheese> :D
23:05:13 <andythenorth> I like CHIPS
23:05:20 <Supercheese> As do I
23:05:20 <andythenorth> I kept CHIPS pretty small
23:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: so if i select the german "theme" i get express engines that are better on flat land, if i select austrian then they're better on mountains/curves
23:05:31 <andythenorth> I don't need 1 bazillion stations
23:05:32 * Supercheese has too many station newgrfs
23:05:41 <Supercheese> although in this game let me see...
23:05:43 <Pikka> Eddi: the reason for restricting the buy menu so much is so that the differences are exaggerated. I wouldn't have "the german version of the E18" in one set and "the austrian version of the E18" in another.
23:06:12 <Pikka> I would include "whichever loco fits the caracature I'm trying to paint".
23:06:30 <andythenorth> otoh Pikka wants me to add lots of station tiles to CHIPS, due to 'the default stations smell'
23:06:37 <andythenorth> naughty pikka
23:06:41 <Pikka> no I don't
23:06:46 <andythenorth> :)
23:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: and i think this will make the game really boring
23:06:48 <Pikka> I just want you to stop building default stations :P
23:06:54 <andythenorth> I like them :P
23:07:07 * Pikka will do a base set
23:07:10 <Supercheese> I've built station tiles from 8/18 station grfs loaded (but some have date restrictions so I can't use them in 1899 yet)
23:07:12 <Pikka> then you can build default stations
23:07:15 <andythenorth> he
23:07:24 <Supercheese> others I should axe, I won't use them
23:07:38 <Supercheese> but meh, 127 grfs loadable
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23:07:47 <andythenorth> so CHIPS: 8 tiles for stations walking, 2 mineral loaders, sheep, pigs and cows
23:07:51 <Pikka> well, each to their own, Eddi :)
23:07:52 <andythenorth> what more could ever be needed?
23:07:58 <Pikka> nothing
23:08:11 <Supercheese> well, more cargo support perhaps
23:08:14 <andythenorth> meh
23:08:15 <andythenorth> maybe
23:08:19 <Supercheese> steal graphics from NUTS
23:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i don't see the point in a "you only have express engines" and a "you only have shunting engines" set
23:08:24 <Supercheese> or well, he's offering them
23:08:28 <Supercheese> no stealing necessary
23:09:06 <andythenorth> so BANDIT
23:09:10 <Pikka> yes
23:09:16 <andythenorth> 1 x small truck for town and farm stuff
23:09:22 <andythenorth> non-articulated
23:09:31 <andythenorth> 1 x articulated truck, refits anything anywhere
23:09:37 <Pikka> hmm, that's a good point
23:09:42 <andythenorth> and some randoms that I can't resist adding :P
23:09:50 <Pikka> I should knock out about half of the already tiny HOQVS buy list :D
23:10:00 <Supercheese> HOQVS?
23:10:01 <andythenorth> you really only need 2 trucks at any time
23:10:04 * Supercheese googles
23:10:06 <Pikka> yes
23:10:07 <andythenorth> 10t, 20t
23:10:21 <andythenorth> or if you have NA, or AU you get B doubles, so 40t
23:10:29 <andythenorth> end of, done done
23:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think trucks need exaggerated vehicle loads to be useful
23:10:35 <Supercheese> all the Google results are from this IRC channel
23:10:44 * Pikka considered learning to drive a B double, just for the fun of it
23:10:48 <Supercheese> HOQVS; what is
23:10:53 <andythenorth> Pikka: what's to learn?
23:10:55 <Pikka> or at least an HC semi
23:10:59 <Pikka> well
23:11:00 <andythenorth> get in, press go, try to avoid corners
23:11:12 <andythenorth> you don't need to worry much about brakes
23:11:13 <Pikka> "learn" == "get licence for"
23:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and park backwards? :p
23:11:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this is AU
23:11:28 <andythenorth> you just turn around and park forwards
23:11:34 <andythenorth> the parking lot is 4 miles wide
23:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: doesn't help you navigate to the loading bay
23:11:57 <andythenorth> and braking is a non issue, you can either drive through most stuff, or it's going to kill you
23:12:13 <Pikka> :)
23:12:27 * Pikka remembers riding around with heavy towtruck drivers
23:12:27 <andythenorth> meh, I can't bring myself to kill enough FISH
23:12:31 <Pikka> they don't wear seatbelts
23:12:31 <Supercheese> running over vermin might even be encouraged
23:12:39 <Supercheese> lessen the infestation eh
23:12:44 <Pikka> they don't need to, they could run over a house and not even feel it
23:13:03 <andythenorth> if they hit something big enough to stop the truck, they won't survive anyway
23:13:23 <Pikka> mmhm
23:13:27 <andythenorth> if I remove autorefit, FISH gets smaller
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23:13:43 <andythenorth> or if we 'fix' autorefit
23:14:27 <Supercheese> Oy vey, the daylength topic
23:14:33 <Supercheese> it's like the 2.0 thread all over again
23:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so trucks: one single box (piece), one single open (bulk) one single tank (liquid) and one articulated (everything), then have "generations" that get faster/stronger/cheaper?
23:15:05 <Pikka>
23:15:08 <Pikka> soon (tm)
23:15:14 <Supercheese> andythenorth: if you remove autorefit from FISH, I will forever use old versions
23:15:22 <andythenorth> gah, I forgot that I have to do different bodies for non-articulated trucks
23:15:23 <Supercheese> mandatory feature IMHO
23:15:29 <andythenorth> yeah, ok, screw BANDIT
23:15:33 <andythenorth> I cba with all that
23:15:39 <Supercheese> I can no longer use NARS due to no autorefir :(
23:15:44 <Supercheese> refit*
23:15:50 <andythenorth> Pikka: yeah those, that's what BANDIT was invented for
23:15:54 <andythenorth> that and small farm trucks
23:15:54 * Supercheese could code an addon grf but MEH
23:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those should really go into HEQS
23:16:47 <andythenorth> nah, AU parameter on BANDIT
23:17:06 <andythenorth> they're on-highway vehicles, HEQS is off-highway
23:17:30 <Supercheese> that silly hi-rail truck that nobody ever uses :P
23:17:48 <Pikka> you don't have quaddogs in the UK either, do you? standard construction trucks here.
23:18:03 <Pikka>
23:18:20 <andythenorth> same in canada
23:18:26 <andythenorth> but...they're not going in BANDIT :P
23:18:34 <Pikka> why not? :P
23:18:41 <andythenorth> because because
23:18:53 <andythenorth> how many truck types do you need? :P
23:18:59 <Pikka> two
23:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody built long-nosed trucks in europe for decades
23:19:06 <andythenorth> you get a B Double, and a delivery truck
23:19:07 <Pikka> b triples and quad dogs :P
23:19:17 <andythenorth> and they're different how? :P
23:19:27 <Pikka> good question
23:19:47 <andythenorth> faster / stronger / better?
23:19:51 <andythenorth> look different? :P
23:19:58 <Pikka> at least one of those
23:20:08 <andythenorth> lower capacity and slower than a B triple
23:20:10 <Pikka> see, I'm much more in favour of large sets
23:20:14 <Pikka> when I don't have to make them myself
23:20:16 <Pikka> :P
23:20:17 <andythenorth> it's a bad habit
23:20:22 <andythenorth> easily done
23:20:46 <andythenorth> I tried having a range of 'vocational' trucks in BANDIT
23:20:56 * Supercheese inspects FIRS translations
23:21:11 <andythenorth> i.e. construction / loggers, heavy chassis, high hp, lower speed
23:21:18 <andythenorth> but they have no gameplay purpose at all
23:21:32 <andythenorth> TTD trucks don't get bogged in mud and throw off their diffs or springs
23:21:57 <andythenorth> that daylength page is Wall Of Text, always a bad sign
23:22:04 <Pikka> yep
23:23:41 <Supercheese> Pikka's blog was Wall of Text-ish, what about that? :P
23:24:11 <Supercheese> Oh wait, it had pretty pictures
23:24:17 <Supercheese> Disregard :)
23:24:25 <andythenorth> Pikka: for BANDIT-AU you get one of these, and a B-triple
23:24:46 <andythenorth> and whatever is in HEQS
23:24:58 <Pikka> that's pretty small D:
23:25:02 <andythenorth> call it 10t
23:25:08 <andythenorth> maybe 15
23:25:23 <Pikka> more like 2 :P but yes, "realism(tm)"
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23:25:32 <andythenorth> the whole low capacity NARS thing has screwed up my perception of capacities :P
23:26:02 <Pikka> can you drive a truck like this on a normal car licence in the UK?
23:26:24 <Supercheese> andythenorth: FIRS strings of "Current production: blah", I am in favor of capitalizing the Blah, so Current production: Normal
23:26:35 <Supercheese> This is consistent with e.g. vehicle buy menu
23:26:37 <andythenorth> Pikka: dunno
23:26:44 <andythenorth> Supercheese: buy menu is wrong :(
23:26:49 <Pikka> you can in australia
23:26:51 <andythenorth> don't capitalise after a colon
23:26:56 <Pikka> which is why there are so many of them here
23:26:58 <Supercheese> "Refittable to: Passengers"
23:27:00 <Supercheese> capitalized
23:27:07 <andythenorth> someone should go up to chipping sodbury and sort out Microprose
23:27:12 <andythenorth> with a grammar lesson
23:27:16 <andythenorth> oh refittable :
23:27:19 <andythenorth> that's just wrong
23:27:26 <andythenorth> someone should call .lower() on it :P
23:27:40 <Supercheese> "Suitable for: Freight"
23:27:48 * Supercheese moves for capitalizing
23:27:50 <andythenorth> Pikka: oh, ok, this one then
23:28:14 <Pikka> neat
23:28:24 <andythenorth> still 5t irl
23:28:25 <Supercheese> I was dubbed official US English translator, no?
23:28:26 <andythenorth> trucks are crapy
23:28:45 * Supercheese capitalizes the stuff in US English .lng
23:28:51 <Pikka> 5t?
23:29:05 <andythenorth> payload apparently
23:29:09 <Pikka> yes
23:29:18 <Pikka> does nars have low capacity? :P
23:29:27 <andythenorth> a bethgon is about 70-100t irl
23:29:36 <andythenorth> Supercheese: ok, you win
23:29:41 <andythenorth> town rating is capitalised too
23:29:44 <andythenorth> wrong wrong, but meh
23:29:48 <Pikka> eh
23:29:52 <Supercheese> Consistency over correctness!
23:29:56 <Supercheese> :P
23:30:00 <Pikka> yes, but compared to the default TTD vehicles they're not low capacity
23:30:10 <Supercheese> I can do it for UK english too
23:30:30 <Pikka> you can have realistic capacity wagons like the japanset, then all your trains end up running around with 3 wagons
23:30:45 <andythenorth> Supercheese: ok, if it pleases you go ahead
23:30:54 <Supercheese> it verily doth
23:30:59 <andythenorth> so the question is, how much cap. for trucks?
23:31:05 <andythenorth> realism? or more? or less?
23:31:08 <Pikka> something game balanced
23:31:11 <Pikka> realism sucks
23:31:14 <andythenorth> I want a small truck with 15t, and a bigger truck with a lot more
23:31:25 <Pikka> that'll do then :P
23:32:30 <andythenorth> I need this views thingy frosch has threatened to do
23:32:36 <Supercheese> whoah, the English_AU.lng has all of two entries
23:32:38 <andythenorth> but it needs to sort out autorefit
23:32:42 <Supercheese> is that... legal?
23:32:51 <Supercheese> Just include the strings that are different? O_o
23:32:54 <andythenorth> yes
23:32:57 <andythenorth> don't replicate
23:33:03 * Supercheese was unaware
23:33:04 <andythenorth> changes in two places are silly
23:33:15 * Supercheese will remove unchanged strings
23:33:27 <andythenorth> would have been easier to start with an empty file :)
23:33:30 <andythenorth> but too late
23:33:39 <Supercheese> :S
23:33:50 <Supercheese> WinMerge ho
23:34:07 <Supercheese> inverse merge? subtract?
23:35:50 <andythenorth> diff
23:36:26 <andythenorth> Pikka: so now I have to go sleep and dream of which ships to delete :P
23:36:42 <andythenorth> I kind of like the continent / region thing
23:36:44 <Pikka> :) good luck
23:36:47 <andythenorth> dunno how to apply it to ships
23:37:28 <Pikka> I wouldn't try, it's not really applicable
23:37:44 <andythenorth> I still think sea vs. inland might work
23:37:57 <andythenorth> and each type is crippled for the other water type
23:38:10 <andythenorth> harsh
23:38:30 <Pikka> maybe
23:38:41 <andythenorth> or arbitrary nonsense
23:38:49 <andythenorth> like player 1 gets the 'big big coaster'
23:38:56 <andythenorth> and player 2 gets the 'small big coaster'
23:38:59 <Pikka> yuck :)
23:39:00 <Supercheese> no buy menu callbacks?
23:39:09 <Supercheese> or are we presuming they'll be added sometime?
23:39:18 <andythenorth> ach, it's not hard to do
23:39:21 <andythenorth> someone will do it
23:39:28 <Supercheese> famous last words :P
23:39:35 <andythenorth> unless they decide they hate all this and try to stop us :P
23:39:43 <andythenorth> so far that's looking possible :)
23:39:48 <Supercheese> all too possible
23:40:03 <Pikka>
23:40:05 <Supercheese> "ach, those newgrf people, there they go again"
23:40:12 <Pikka> there you go, that's how the new diagonals look
23:40:16 <Supercheese> "I should never have added multiple-vehicle-set support"
23:40:35 <Supercheese> "63 loaded grfs is more than anyone could ever need/want"
23:40:45 <andythenorth> herp yes, that's betterer
23:41:01 <Pikka> and a hell of a lot easier/more fun to draw
23:41:14 <Supercheese> Superior in every way then, no? :)
23:41:18 <andythenorth> daiagonals smell
23:41:21 <Pikka> with TTD-scale, basically you're trying to squash 8px of vertical information from the horizontal view
23:41:21 <andythenorth> hmm
23:41:27 <Pikka> into 7px in the diagonal
23:41:37 * Supercheese renders or borrows all his sprites
23:41:41 <Supercheese> I wouldn't know
23:41:49 <Pikka> there's no way anyone in their right mind would have drawn them like that, it's just another reason why I think the original sprites must be rendered :)
23:42:08 <andythenorth> I think I forgot to do that
23:42:19 <andythenorth> what would SF have rendered them in?
23:42:34 <andythenorth> I assumed he just sat and did a lot of deluxe paint on an amiga :P
23:42:38 <andythenorth> or corel draw :P
23:43:01 <Supercheese>
23:43:03 <Pikka> eh, rendering programs existed back then
23:43:04 <Supercheese> perhaps
23:43:17 <andythenorth> if you had time to wait :)
23:43:25 <andythenorth> probably not long for sprites
23:43:30 <andythenorth> I like the mining truck
23:43:35 <Pikka> after all, RCT is obviously rendered, and that was only a few years later
23:43:46 <andythenorth> it's one of the first sprites I drew, and it's also still one of my favourites :P
23:43:50 <Pikka> not long for sprites, and given the size they wouldn't have had to be complex models to begin with
23:44:28 <Supercheese> Poke poke
23:44:43 <andythenorth> fair point
23:45:07 <andythenorth> hmm
23:45:20 <andythenorth> one player could get packet ships (refittable any cargo)
23:45:32 <andythenorth> another gets mostly freight
23:45:36 <andythenorth> another gets mostly pax
23:45:50 <Pikka> but that's just strange
23:45:52 <andythenorth> if we're going to do this, let's screw players over a bit, no?
23:46:04 <andythenorth> so you have to adapt strategy to what you get
23:46:05 <Pikka> :P
23:46:11 <Pikka> we'll see
23:46:15 <Pikka> code it and we'll try it
23:46:20 <andythenorth> I've considered random vehicles before
23:46:28 <andythenorth> or at least random stats
23:46:52 <andythenorth> I'd like to stop saying, hey, it's 1970, the big log truck will be along soon
23:46:53 <andythenorth> in MP
23:47:03 <andythenorth> but then that's strategy, right?
23:47:11 <Pikka> yeah
23:47:30 <Pikka> I mean, random stats could be fun for the novelty
23:47:43 <Pikka> but as an actual set design, I think it has more drawbacks than advantages
23:47:49 <Supercheese> yeah, as long as the random magnitude isn't excessive
23:48:13 <Supercheese> ±10%? 20%? 25%?
23:48:17 <andythenorth> GS that unlocks vehicles for completing achievements :P
23:48:28 <Supercheese> cheevos for OTTD,
23:48:30 <Pikka> that could be interesting :P
23:48:31 <Supercheese> ignore comma
23:48:40 <Supercheese> GamerScores
23:48:41 <Pikka> it would mean cooperation between the GS and the grf, though
23:48:44 <andythenorth> yeah, that
23:48:49 <andythenorth> never happening
23:48:56 <Supercheese> GamerScore GameScript GSGS
23:49:20 <andythenorth> so I have to put a line through 60% of FISH 2
23:49:23 <andythenorth> some people will hate me
23:49:29 <andythenorth> mostly DanMacK and Coxx :(
23:49:34 <Supercheese> "have to"
23:49:48 <andythenorth> I need to lose these silly tankers too
23:49:57 <andythenorth> so either no tanker sprites, or no autorefit
23:50:12 <Pikka> eh
23:50:22 <Supercheese> You know my stance on autorefit
23:50:22 <Pikka> you know you can limit autorefit?
23:50:32 <andythenorth> ah
23:50:35 <Pikka> based on both the cargo from and the cargo to, for example?
23:50:38 <andythenorth> yes
23:50:47 <andythenorth> but you can create provably broken orders with it
23:50:52 <andythenorth> and there's no error message
23:50:52 <Pikka> true
23:50:54 <Supercheese> rather broken orders
23:50:57 <andythenorth> I have a savegame somewhere :(
23:51:10 <Pikka> maybe have seperate tankers then
23:51:14 <Pikka> but prune them down a bit ;)
23:51:17 <Supercheese> Filter-buy-list-by-cargo-type works well though
23:51:30 <Supercheese> Too many ships --> pick your cargo, boom fewer ships
23:51:35 <Pikka> shall I put buy menu callback on the frysplay?
23:51:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: how much of your goal is gameplay, and how much smaller buy menu?
23:51:57 <Supercheese> doesn't work with locomotives, obviously
23:51:59 <Pikka> well, smaller buy menu is gameplay ;)
23:52:01 <andythenorth> and how much not having to draw more stuff, or answer requests? :P
23:52:07 <Pikka> quite a bit
23:52:46 <Pikka> more limits hopefully means more productivity and releases :)
23:57:13 <andythenorth> Pikka
23:57:17 <andythenorth> could do that eh?
23:57:50 <Supercheese> Parameter
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23:57:54 <Pikka> hur hur bakewell 300
23:57:56 <Supercheese> Like Pikka did
23:57:56 <andythenorth> 13 from 30
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23:58:14 <Pikka> obviously you need some kind of ferry before the hydrofoil, though? :)
23:58:15 <Supercheese> Ship Selection: Standard/Extended/Whatever
23:58:25 <andythenorth> yeah
23:58:48 <andythenorth> that rosario ferry is fine
23:58:55 <andythenorth> just introduce it earlier and kill it earlier
23:58:57 <Pikka> dunno, it's hard to tell
23:59:16 <andythenorth> the Rockall freighter can go too
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23:59:26 <Pikka> it might be worth making a list from scratch (again), rather than working from what you've got already :)
23:59:41 <andythenorth> that's not hard
23:59:50 <andythenorth> but...
23:59:54 <andythenorth> not today ;)
23:59:55 <andythenorth> bed time
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