IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-19
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00:12:46 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Is the new airport in Berlin finally done?
00:19:32 <peter1138> but gfxfillrect only takes colours, not palettes
00:41:08 <peter1138> it works for trains
00:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> just remove the other vehicle types :p
00:42:47 <peter1138> it works for planes too
00:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planes are useless
00:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> ships are too slow
00:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> RVs are too small
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00:48:10 <peter1138> just not for egrvts
00:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> they use custom recolour maps?
00:54:11 <peter1138> can't grfcodec -d it :S
00:54:28 <peter1138> it decoded up to 51000 nfo sprites so far
00:54:50 <peter1138> Error while decoding sprite, got 3, wanted 4, at 8499854: Success
00:55:20 <peter1138> 8499854 is the end of the fie
00:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "Error: Success" these are the greatest of them all :p
00:58:36 <peter1138> Error while decoding sprite, got 3, wanted 4, at 8499854: No such file or directory
00:58:43 <peter1138> it says that on first try
00:58:47 <peter1138> and Success on the second try
00:58:55 <peter1138> so it's using an invalid errno
00:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe your grfcodec is outdated?
01:01:57 <Pokka> this sounds like a bad idea
01:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> can't be worse than ice trains :p
01:03:37 <peter1138> oh well, it's an 8MB newgrf
01:03:51 <peter1138> i'll assume it contains a local copy of the 2cc recolour maps :S
01:04:30 <peter1138> mahoooosive newgrf which doesn't decode properly
01:04:36 <Pokka> why would it contain a local copy of the 2cc recolour maps?
01:05:27 * Supercheese 's NewObject set includes ice objects...
01:05:41 <peter1138> cos it has recolouring options
01:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about egrvts, but GermanRV has autogenerated recolourmaps for 2cc+cargo recolouring (around 1000 in total)
01:06:15 <peter1138> then i've just done all this for no reason!
01:07:23 <Supercheese> it doesn't have 32bpp or extra zoom gfx does it?
01:07:39 <Supercheese> sheesh, how'd it get 8 MB
01:08:54 <peter1138> it's got 51000 nfo lins
01:09:45 <Supercheese> No sources available... :S
01:09:54 <Supercheese> None I've found anyway
01:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (wc -l, that is)
01:10:56 <Supercheese> Hmm, I wonder how many .nfo lines my grfs have, I never look at the nfo
01:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> nml doesn't generate the nfo by default ;)
01:12:05 <Supercheese> that's including all the translations I got
01:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> are we in court?
01:12:59 <Supercheese> Good lord, NFO is atrocious
01:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that bad, if it's commented :p
01:13:43 <Supercheese> It... is that bad
01:13:49 <Supercheese> but that's a matter of opinion
01:14:26 <Supercheese> Well, Pikka-code is likely superior code :P
01:14:33 <peter1138> just egrvts2 smells!
01:15:04 <Pokka> how does it have 51000 lines?
01:15:14 <Pokka> it doesn't have /that/ many vehicles, and they don't do that much.
01:15:28 <peter1138> lots of action 9/D lines
01:15:36 <Supercheese> sound effects? are those encoded directly in the nfo?
01:15:45 <Supercheese> no, they're waved
01:17:08 <Supercheese> there are two egrvts2s, IIRC
01:17:11 <Supercheese> which are you decoding?
01:17:29 <peter1138> r181 it says in game
01:17:35 <peter1138> 175 it says in the directory
01:17:58 <Supercheese> There's also eGRVTS2_WIP2.grf
01:18:05 <Supercheese> which is older and less complete
01:18:19 <Supercheese> eGRSTS2-nml.grf is the newest methinks
01:18:32 <Supercheese> heh, with that typo? or did I somehow make that...
01:20:27 <Supercheese> No, typo was Zephyris'
01:21:08 <Supercheese> does that one, perchance, decompile?
01:21:46 <Supercheese> nope, errored out
01:22:12 <peter1138> Error while decoding sprite, got 3, wanted 4, at 8499844: No such file or directory
01:22:53 <Supercheese> eGRVTS2_WIP2.grf decompiles
01:23:04 <Supercheese> but as I said, it's much older :S
01:24:06 <Supercheese> what is needing to be extracted?
01:24:35 <Pokka> you're also not wrong about all the action 9s, Ds, and sheesh, 6s.
01:27:49 <Pokka> it appears grfcodec can't manage to generate the png, presumably because it's too big
01:29:46 <Pokka> or it's the sounds it trips over on?
01:34:56 <Pokka> it seems to break after the first wav sprite
01:35:15 <Pokka> and fails to output the wav
01:35:45 <peter1138> that's the only wav in the grf
01:35:46 <Supercheese> You can extract spritesheets
01:36:13 <Supercheese> Hmm, grfcodec picks wrong palette by default
01:37:06 <Pokka> well, it's the only one in the outputted nfo
01:38:07 <Pokka> 11 01 00, okay, it's the only one then
01:38:41 <peter1138> rather a lot of cargo variants
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08:37:08 <Supercheese> Ok, just installed MinGW, modified my system Path variable; what's the syntax to preprocess a .pnml file?
08:38:30 <planetmaker> depends. Usually all projects which I'm involved, you just call make to do all things for you
08:38:46 <planetmaker> then you don't need to remember any syntax. Nor which files
08:39:32 <planetmaker> mingw should also come with a flavour of make. So just try 'make' in the main checkout dir of a project you might have gotten
08:39:53 <Supercheese> Was trying things with one of my own project to start
08:40:00 <Supercheese> I'll check out an existing makefile
08:42:05 <planetmaker> that is a dummy newgrf itself and easily adopted (all you usually should need to adopt is directly in the Makefile)
08:42:26 <Supercheese> Yeah, first repo I browsed to uses that template f
08:48:51 <planetmaker> otherwise... gcc -C -E - < file.pnml > file.nml
08:52:08 <Supercheese> Huh, weird syntax
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08:57:21 * Alberth is pondering to start a newgrf translation webservice project
08:57:32 <Alberth> nice scrabble word :p
08:58:24 <planetmaker> do cookies help in the decision? :D
08:59:00 <Alberth> I was going to try doing it without cookies :)
08:59:23 <Alberth> do you know any existing attempts?
09:00:22 <planetmaker> not of a web service kind. You know all wrt translations which I do.
09:01:05 <planetmaker> but I wonder whether that'll not need some more string abstraction on the newgrf side
09:01:33 <planetmaker> similar to the container format which now splits data; so that strings are split from data
09:01:34 <Alberth> what's "string abstraction" ?
09:01:53 <planetmaker> though... maybe the action4 can just be placed trailing to the grf
09:02:05 <planetmaker> but they then shouldn't change the NewGRF grfID
09:02:18 <planetmaker> though... that's separate.
09:02:35 <planetmaker> bah. /me is now confused
09:02:46 <Alberth> please translate to english?
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09:03:36 <Alberth> what is the problem with strings in newgrfs?
09:03:48 <planetmaker> Alberth, I think the biggest decision which needs be made is / are
09:03:56 <planetmaker> - how do you obtain the (English) strings?
09:04:05 <planetmaker> - how do you provide the translated strings?
09:04:15 <planetmaker> - how are the translated strings supplied to the authors or users
09:04:29 <planetmaker> and... I'm not clear on any of these three fundamental questions
09:05:08 <Supercheese> Now, to separate and #include, I should have done this before my .nml file reached 1040 lines...
09:05:48 <Alberth> only 1040 lines? I have seen Java code of 3000 lines :)
09:05:57 <planetmaker> 1000 lines is still managable. FIRS has 25k+ lines ;-)
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09:06:24 <Supercheese> Surely FIRS is separated and #included, no?
09:06:41 <planetmaker> yes... it's even meta-programmed
09:06:57 <Supercheese> .py -> .nml -> .grf or so, eh
09:08:05 <Supercheese> Yo dawg, I heard you like abstraction, so we put abstraction in your abstraction...
09:08:23 <Supercheese> or abstracted your abstraction, I guess :)
09:10:06 <Alberth> I see two kinds of users for such a service; at the newgrf-side, you have complete files that you can exchange; at the translator side you have sets of strings
09:11:20 <Alberth> the only thing specific to newgrf, is the syntax of the files (meta-data mostly) and the strings, so you can verify correctness
09:13:18 <Alberth> that's easy to abstract away in a separate module, so you can also handle other syntax, eg AIs or GSes
09:13:28 <planetmaker> lol... if I concatenate all Makefile parts... it ends up already at 456 lines :D
09:14:15 <Alberth> perhaps throw away all comments? :D
09:15:30 <Alberth> hmm, I think you have too many variables in your Makefile then :p
09:15:41 <planetmaker> re translations: so you get the translation files delivered from the authors?
09:15:56 <planetmaker> or via an URL or alike?
09:16:40 <Alberth> definitely an URL, you can build a form-like web-page, or have a upload/download page
09:17:26 <Alberth> you just need to define the syntax of such a file
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09:28:59 <planetmaker> Alberth, so... if I provide an URL it will automatically retrieve it regularily (and discard translations of strings not present there anymore)?
09:30:16 <Alberth> At the moment, I assume you bring updates to the application, and pull updates when you see fit
09:30:34 <Alberth> but of course these things are easy to arrange in anyway you like
09:30:55 <Supercheese> So, grf authors upload their english.lngs in need of translating, translators see the strings needed, they submit and then... I guess other.lngs are returned to the grf authors somehow?
09:32:46 <Alberth> grf authors also upload translations
09:33:05 <Supercheese> should stuff other than english exist, yeah
09:33:06 <Alberth> and download all those files again
09:34:13 <Alberth> a translation with 0 translated strings is also a translation, just a very empty one ;)
09:35:41 <Supercheese> Heh, well it sure sounds like a great idea :D
09:37:56 <Alberth> the general idea is easy, the problems come when you try to realize it ;)
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09:45:06 <V453000> I did some more fiddling and discovered more of my issues, http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2055/ //BORK does not randomize with the power, BUT the 2 visual random_switches do ... which leads me to believe that it is something related to randomizing train stats and making them dependent ... which I do not see why is not working, but is there any way to overcome this?
09:56:04 <planetmaker> Supercheese, can you remind me: what for is TILE_CLASS_VOID needed?
09:56:18 <planetmaker> could it be instead like INVALID_TILE?
09:56:46 <Supercheese> the name of the named constant can be whatever, it just seems TILE_CLASS_VOID is consistent with the other tile classes
09:57:30 <planetmaker> yes... I guess there won't be other invalid tiles
09:59:03 <planetmaker> yes. pull NML tip :D
09:59:37 <Supercheese> changing code now...
10:00:13 <Supercheese> Oh hmm, now that I have MinGW, I wonder if that Notepad++ syntax-highlighter-autogen script will work...
10:10:59 <Supercheese> It's a very neat feature, whoever first came up with syntax highlighting for programming languages was a genius
10:11:08 <peter1138> newgrf.cpp is 9179 lines
10:11:38 <peter1138> newgrf* is 25k lines
10:12:11 <Supercheese> or, well, a new addition rather
10:12:56 <planetmaker> yes... *someone*, you know. Someone who uses notepad++ even
10:13:11 <V453000> you have a NML syntax highlighter for np++?
10:13:20 <planetmaker> look at the link. Obviously :D
10:13:22 <Supercheese> See that link there
10:13:34 * planetmaker didn't know anymore either
10:14:26 <Supercheese> Hmm, I suppose fancy-colored highlighting wasn't invented at least until color computer displays were :P
10:14:58 <planetmaker> Supercheese, I'd not count on that... you can do stuff with the font type (italic, bold...)
10:15:25 <planetmaker> heffer, thanks for the pillow patch. Applied now to NML trunk. Will also be in next release
10:15:44 <heffer> planetmaker: great news! thank you for applying
10:16:36 <Supercheese> Pillow... you guys are making me sleepy :O
10:17:03 * Alberth makes a nice hot tea with honey for Supercheese
10:17:44 <Alberth> I already liked PIL, Pillow is even better?
10:18:07 <Supercheese> Hmm, I wonder if "zzzzzzz" is a universally-accepted colloquial-text-ism for sleeping
10:18:33 <Supercheese> text-colloquialism... texloquialism?
10:18:50 <Supercheese> I guess you could speak it, although it'd be a tad difficult
10:19:40 <heffer> Alberth: well it's 1. maintained and 2. heading for python 3 compatibility
10:20:03 <Alberth> that's 2 points ahead already :)
10:21:28 <heffer> the version that will be in the Fedora 19 branch shortly does have python 3 compatibility already
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10:41:15 <Alberth> nice, still running F17 here :)
10:46:24 <Supercheese> Good night; valete & estote laeti!
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10:55:32 <peter1138> still working on rgb recolours
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11:14:13 <peter1138> shame about egrvts2
11:16:49 <peter1138> egrvts2 provides its own copies of the cc recolouring maps
11:17:18 <peter1138> which overrides my ... beautiful non-hacky code
11:28:32 <andythedoom> now just make it apply to individual vehicles ;)
11:28:39 <andythedoom> then all the livery freaks will wet themselves :)
11:28:49 <andythedoom> just like my house
11:29:08 <peter1138> eh, it applies to liveries already
11:29:17 <andythedoom> I mean on a per-vehicle basis
11:29:25 <andythedoom> clickety on the vehicle
11:29:36 <peter1138> i keep considering group colours
11:29:42 <peter1138> but not per-vehicle
11:29:53 <andythedoom> oh the livery freaks will be sad
11:30:06 <andythedoom> how else will they construct a prototypical representation of the UK?
11:30:26 <peter1138> phasing out mercury!
11:31:02 <andythedoom> who's got my P60?
11:31:12 <andythedoom> I need it for tax return purposes
11:33:56 <peter1138> along with my homework :S
11:34:21 <peter1138> youtube has video effects and shit these days :S
11:34:36 <V453000> :D custom colours, awesome
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11:43:50 <andythedoom> this is an excellent troll of the v2.0 thread :)
11:44:15 <andythedoom> "better ratio between tiles/km" is a genius lol-wut
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11:48:17 <V453000> it is getting awesome
11:57:43 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: you do know that the last compile of Cargodist failed because you didn't rebase to a compilable version of trunk, right? :)
11:58:03 <TrueBrain> the CF did nothing wrong, for a change :P
12:01:19 <TrueBrain> no! IT IS NOT TRUE!
12:04:06 * fonsinchen tries to "make bundle" with that version now.
12:04:28 <andythedoom> skin Alberth's translator thingy?
12:04:38 <andythedoom> there is cake here
12:04:43 <TrueBrain> which translator thingy? :)
12:04:58 <andythedoom> a newgrf thingumy
12:05:08 <TrueBrain> awh, I was hoping he made WT4 :(
12:05:22 <andythedoom> Alberth: where is your thingummy?
12:07:16 <fonsinchen> Sorry TrueBrain, when it said "cp: target `/bamboo/bundle/game/' is not a directory" I was just automatically assuming it had some problem with disk space again.
12:07:31 <fonsinchen> Turns out I was wrong.
12:07:45 <TrueBrain> I know, because a nightly had the same issue P
12:07:52 <TrueBrain> I assumed someone had told you
12:08:21 <V453000> excellent my check came from NASA :DDDD
12:09:17 <fonsinchen> Well, the previous version is pretty stable and not much has been happening in trunk in the mean time. I'll concentrate on getting the reservation thing right before rebasing again.
12:10:49 <Alberth> TrueBrain: who knows what it might become :)
12:13:44 <Alberth> are there other differences than the number of languages and strings, and the syntax of the files?
12:16:37 <peter1138> woo, rgb remaps survive saveload
12:16:55 <TrueBrain> Alberth: depends .. do you support {P}, {G} and all that other shit?
12:17:01 <TrueBrain> do you validate parameter count and positioning?
12:17:14 <TrueBrain> (no clue what NewGRF supports :P)
12:17:29 <TrueBrain> and the main difference I guess would be that it has to read SVN diffs, and be able to make SVN commits ;)
12:17:41 <Alberth> eventually, yes, I do have plans to check sanity of strings in that area too
12:18:08 <TrueBrain> you do know where the source of WT3 is, right? Just so you can get an idea of how I solved those issues ... in 1 word: very ugly :P
12:18:56 <Alberth> for now, I assume I get complete files
12:19:29 <Alberth> and I have a separate part dealing with syntax issues and checking strings stuff
12:20:19 <Alberth> but for now, I assume just plain text as strings :)
12:23:10 <peter1138> i guess i need to free a memblock
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12:23:43 <peter1138> otherwise this is going to fill up the sprite cache with remaps :p
12:28:40 <peter1138> obnoxious colour scheme! :D
12:29:26 <Alberth> somewhat orange/yellow-ish :)
12:30:39 <V453000> is that in trunk now?
12:31:15 <peter1138> it's just a local save for the game we played
12:31:28 <peter1138> but look at egrvts2 being awkward on the right :p
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12:35:30 <Rubidium> peter1138: looks like that company was called Easy with its subsidiaries EasyBoat, EasyTrain, EasyBus, EasyTruck, EasyChopper and EasyJet ;)
12:37:29 <peter1138> i guess some of av8 uses custom remaps
13:02:44 <andythedoom> peter1138: nothing wrong with those colours
13:03:11 <andythedoom> whatever happened to a fixed palette though :(
13:03:21 <andythedoom> life only has 256 colours, who could ever need more?
13:04:21 <andythedoom> pay-to-play servers
13:05:38 <Terkhen> I hope we don't sink to that :P
13:07:32 <andythedoom> definitely wouldn't cause politics :P
13:26:36 <peter1138> andythedoom, what about a fixed palette?
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13:27:45 <andythenorth> peter1138: Simon Foster chose colours in 1994, why aren't they good enough forever more?
13:28:11 <peter1138> i thought people wanted more colours :S
13:28:19 <andythenorth> don't trust people
13:28:41 <andythenorth> more colours are good
13:29:10 <drac_boy> theres one problem as I've often noticed tho...
13:29:38 <drac_boy> too-similar colours ... kinda silly when a station look like its player #4's when its actually #6's
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13:35:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: this remap is player-owned stuff only? Or industries as well?
13:36:59 <peter1138> if you can provide a custom colour map in newgrf, then that should work
13:37:16 <peter1138> i extended the colour map "format"
13:38:08 <andythenorth> I don't actually want to change them :)
13:38:27 <andythenorth> but I had to prevent some company colours being used in FIRS
13:38:33 <andythenorth> for reasons of good taste
13:38:45 <andythenorth> wondered if it screws with that - doesn't, don't care :)
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13:39:15 <peter1138> only thing with providing custom remaps is you lose the any-colour ability
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14:11:48 <Pokka> av8 references the default 2cc maps, peter
14:16:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "Canada put a norwegian maple leaf on their new banknotes"
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14:17:22 <peter1138> Pokka, hmm, how is that even done?
14:18:09 <peter1138> ah the base is returned as a variable. cunning.
14:18:58 <Pokka> thanks to matchpan iirc
14:19:00 <peter1138> you refernece them directly so they're used
14:20:29 <peter1138> which is fine, just incompatible. hmm.
14:21:16 <peter1138> well you can do things like swap colour1 & colour2
14:21:25 <peter1138> gives you the same scheme but reversed
14:21:34 <peter1138> but that's not going to work with this
14:21:45 <Pokka> which is what I use it for
14:22:27 <Pokka> av8 aircraft refit into normal, reverse, alt and "blank" (either white or grey) colour schemes
14:26:21 <peter1138> yeah, only normal (and letting ottd add the offset) will work
14:41:06 <peter1138> yeah no way around that
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14:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> file not found: :S
15:59:04 <V453000> 500 Internal Server Error upon updating NUTS :d
16:08:31 <peter1138> dbg: [sprite] LoadNewGRF: Currently 71602 sprites are loaded
16:08:36 <peter1138> so much for 16384 sprites :p
16:08:56 <peter1138> and that's without multiple vehicle-of-the-same-class sets
16:09:39 <peter1138> yay, spritecache memory leak fixed
16:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> 16k sprites are enough for anybody
16:17:11 <peter1138> i wasted at least 200KB on remaps!
16:17:39 <peter1138> which is not unlikely as RGBA remaps are 1281 bytes
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16:22:58 <V453000> is something wrong on my end or is that bananas issue? :d
16:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it very well could be an aftershock of the recent server downtime
16:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in that case, you should talk to TrueBrain or Rubidium
16:27:15 <V453000> that is what I thought
16:27:38 <V453000> I guess you just highlighted them so I will see if I can catch them later :) thanks
16:29:05 <TrueBrain> Eddi: the services are online; I guess it is really an internal server error, as in: something is wrong with the upload
16:30:13 <TrueBrain> V453000: you can try musa; it might give you more clues about what goes wrong
16:30:49 <TrueBrain> its a command line utility to upload stuff to BaNaNaS
16:30:54 <frosch123> monkey upload service ape
16:31:08 <frosch123> TrueBrain: that's not what he asked :p
16:31:23 <V453000> im on windows mind you
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16:36:35 <pokkka> the v2.0 thread continues to attract very witty trolls
16:37:27 <frosch123> start a thread about firs 2
16:37:52 <pokkka> am I going to get moderatised for trolling?
16:38:16 <frosch123> maybe heqs heqs will feature witches riding vehicles
16:38:36 <Pokka> witches' riding vehicles?
16:38:54 <frosch123> "heqs heqs" sounds like something witches would say
16:39:26 <pokkka> that's just vapourware
16:39:35 <Pokka> I should do hoqvs as boxes
16:39:48 <Pokka> release first, draw later
16:40:50 <pokkka> is there a var that lets my newgrf know if date cheat was used?
16:40:55 <pokkka> I want to make troll.grf
16:41:11 <pokkka> no vehicles available until 20k years after game start
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16:43:42 *** andyanorse is now known as andythenorth
16:44:09 *** andythenorth is now known as GladysPronck
16:45:00 <frosch123> you can change your nick, but you cannot change your colour
16:46:18 <GladysPronck> well said, Fred Gibson
16:46:32 <frosch123> i only know fred colon
16:46:40 <V453000> hmmm TrueBrain will I be able to do that? :D
16:47:04 <GladysPronck> do you only know fred colon?
16:47:15 <TrueBrain> I see no reason why not; but someoe should explain it to you I guess how it works :P
16:47:33 <GladysPronck> what about fred mercury, from the planet of the same name?
16:47:41 <TrueBrain> no clue where it ended, the project; I know musad (the services itself) is up and running ...
16:48:07 <TrueBrain> anyway, 90% of the time you get a 500 error, it is because you packed your tar wrong for one reason or the other
16:48:20 *** peter1139 is now known as frosch456
16:48:24 <TrueBrain> the other 10% means a system error :P
16:48:58 *** GladysPronck is now known as Pongo
16:49:18 <V453000> I think I packed the zip exactly the same way as I always do, but lets try again
16:49:46 <peter1138> hmm, i wonder if egrvts2 is broken, or grfcodec
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16:50:58 <frosch456> trying to decompile it?
16:51:10 <frosch123> frosch456: everything you say highlights me :s
16:51:27 <TrueBrain> I get this strange urge to start kicking people for all the names they take on
16:51:50 <frosch456> it's all andythenorth's fault
16:51:56 *** frosch456 is now known as gues
16:52:03 *** gues is now known as andythenorth
16:52:30 <andythenorth> what do we want in FIRS 2?
16:53:00 <frosch123> yeah, port it to gameboy generation 1
16:53:14 <andythenorth> certainly hadn't considered that
16:53:16 <Pongo> andy, I thought last night
16:53:27 <Pongo> ice industries for a 19th century D;
16:53:49 <Pongo> deliver to meat packing plants
16:53:56 <andythenorth> trying to make one grf that covers 200 years of gameplay is a bum-ache
16:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> make 2 grfs that each cover 100 years
16:54:26 <peter1138> difficult to split it out for industries
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16:55:01 <andythenorth> the blocker is usually industry closure
16:55:04 <andythenorth> it's unpleasant :P
16:55:31 <andythenorth> which leaves a 'realism' problem :P
16:55:55 <Pongo> industry closure is fun
16:56:36 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
17:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's easy: players have the choice, either "uniform" industry set without closure, or "timeline based" industry set with closure
17:01:01 <andythenorth> I think FIRS is the uniform set
17:01:07 <andythenorth> Pongo can make the other one
17:01:16 <V453000> TrueBrain: I am pretty confident I did everything exactly the same way as before, but somehow it worked now
17:01:22 <V453000> thank you anyway, sorry for the panic :)
17:01:28 <V453000> im good at making panic :)
17:01:39 <TrueBrain> panic? Didnt pick up on that :)
17:01:43 <frosch123> V453000: he had enough time to plug out the coffee machine
17:01:43 <TrueBrain> but glad you could upload it now :)
17:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: don't worry, computers are well known for doing different things every time you enter the same input
17:02:22 <TrueBrain> deterministic is not for computers
17:02:24 <V453000> I know Eddi I lost my faith in the hideous computers long time ago :P
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17:05:55 <peter1138> SpComb's run out of coal :S
17:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> switch to green energy!
17:10:02 <peter1138> silly steel mills want coal
17:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's all Pongo's fault
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17:17:41 <andythenorth> I am the passenger
17:28:49 <peter1138> nah nah nah nah nahnahnah naaaaah
17:30:53 <andythenorth> everybody's talking at me. Can't hear a word they're saying
17:32:31 <frosch123> andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy andy!
17:34:05 <Pongo> where's the new game then, peter?
17:35:32 <Pongo> unless anyone has better ideas
17:35:41 <Pongo> make sure inflation is off at the beginning this time :D
17:36:10 <peter1138> does that work? heh
17:39:38 <andythenorth> do a small FIRS?
17:40:19 <andythenorth> don't do the arctic economy, it needs improverising :P
17:44:25 <peter1138> hm, you can't independently allow ships/trains to make 90 deg turns
17:46:10 <andythenorth> then andythenorth whines that ships are broken :P
17:46:13 <peter1138> similar industries per town?
17:46:27 <andythenorth> the prevent 90' ships thing should be binned
17:47:42 <V453000> it is worthless for trains just as well, andy
17:47:50 <V453000> 90deg should always be off
17:47:59 <andythenorth> V453000: nah, for trains it's valid I reckon
17:48:12 <andythenorth> for hysterical raisins
17:48:18 <V453000> apart from the fact that it looks awful, also functionally it makes dead ends a lot harder to create, which can be very vital
17:48:49 <andythenorth> although Real Men Make Choices
17:48:53 <andythenorth> Parameters Are For Sissies
17:49:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nah. Parameterise everything, so your users can make choices :D
17:49:43 <andythenorth> because users know best :P
17:49:59 <Pongo> just make every property of every vehicle a parameter
17:50:04 <Pongo> set design made easy :D
17:50:08 <FLHerne> They think they do ;-)
17:50:24 <andythenorth> Pongo: did you miss my proposal to extend the spec?
17:50:32 <andythenorth> every sprite becomes a parameter
17:50:39 <andythenorth> player can enter arbitrary nfo to replace it
17:50:44 <FLHerne> Parameterise everything, and then make choices about the sane defaults :D
17:51:07 <andythenorth> Pongo: this way a player can have exactly what they want BUT they never have to code a grf
17:51:20 <andythenorth> so it's ideal for People Who Can't Code
17:51:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne: what's 16^2
17:54:36 <FLHerne> Or so my calculator widget tells me :D
17:54:46 * FLHerne is suffering from lack of geek-fu
17:55:28 <andythenorth> ok, so let's say you have 16 parameters
17:55:38 <andythenorth> how many combinations do you have to test before releasing a grf?
17:55:55 <andythenorth> 16? 16! ? 16^2 ?
17:56:34 <andythenorth> depends if the parameters are orthogonal or not
17:56:48 <andythenorth> if you can guarantee they're orthogonal, life got easier
18:06:02 <peter1138> andy always runs away
18:06:07 <peter1138> bathtime, what is he, 6?
18:06:39 <FLHerne> peter1138: His kids are (ish), aren't they?
18:06:59 * FLHerne probably missed some form of joke :P
18:15:50 <peter1138> guess i'll have to... play with... myself
18:17:12 <FLHerne> peter1138: I might. What trains/style?
18:17:44 <FLHerne> Ah. No idea what 'usual' is :P
18:18:04 <FLHerne> GS/competitive? Realisticish?
18:19:05 <FLHerne> Sounds interesting :-)
18:19:21 <peter1138> you need newstats.grf
18:19:37 <peter1138> all the rest is on banananananananas
18:19:44 <FLHerne> Current version, presumaby?
18:26:04 <TinoDidriksen> Was in reference to Pongo's line.
18:29:50 * FLHerne got lost in openttd.org and then forgot how to use tar :P
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24922 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-01-19 18:45:35 UTC)
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> hebrew - 14 changes by taleinat
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> serbian - 5 changes by SweetAbsinthe
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> swedish - 2 changes by spacejens
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 48 changes by Norby89
18:49:12 <Pongo> ho ho firs cheaty station ratings
18:49:17 <Pongo> too many passengers for peter1138
18:50:10 *** oskari892 has joined #openttd
18:51:29 <peter1138> platforms shouldn't be chockablock
19:10:46 *** skassem has joined #openttd
19:13:21 <frosch123> are you sure you were that single guy he meant?
19:17:44 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd
19:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> who else could he have meant?
19:26:22 <frosch123> someone slighty deaf maybe
19:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm clearly the most awesomest person in here
19:27:31 <frosch123> ah, so you claim to be a person
19:27:56 <frosch123> usually only non-persons emphasize it like that
19:28:13 <DorpsGek> i want to become a real boy
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19:42:45 <Pongo> how does an iron works make metal out of wood?
19:43:47 <andythenorth> where special folk live
19:44:20 <andythenorth> 'Who killed the bears?'
19:44:57 <andythenorth> I think it's a silly industry myself
19:55:09 <Pongo> where's this FLHerne then
19:57:29 <FLHerne> Pongo: Took a while to find the right OTTD version, then got distracted and didn't get around to joining ;-)
19:59:17 <frosch123> FLHerne: just use latest version
19:59:31 <FLHerne> frosch123: I found it now :P
19:59:39 <FLHerne> In fact, some time ago
19:59:58 <frosch123> yeah, latest from some time ago was the greatest
20:00:00 * FLHerne is now trying to install the wrong version of webkit :P
20:22:59 <peter1138> timetable ui is way too fiddly :(
20:26:57 *** apiecux has joined #openttd
20:27:55 <apiecux> I've created a scenario, and when I try to play with it, a crappy newgrf is selected, and I can deselect it
20:28:13 <apiecux> I don't find any way to edit the scenario to remove this newgrf from it
20:29:52 <FLHerne> apiecux: Removing NewGRFs from savegames can cause permanent damage to that savegame, or cause unpredictable crashes at any point in the future :-(
20:30:07 <FLHerne> (scenarios are a special form ov savegame)
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20:30:41 <FLHerne> It's possible to remove grf, but not supported, and the advisability of doing so depends massively on what the grf s
20:30:48 <apiecux> the grf introduces new trains, so I don't think it will break anything if I remove it from a scenario without anything else than cities
20:31:58 <FLHerne> apiecux: I think removing vehicle grfs is usually safe if none of those vehicles exist
20:32:15 <FLHerne> You might want to see if someone else has an opinion on it though ;-)
20:32:47 <apiecux> I'v found a way in the forum, by enabling scenario_develope
20:33:04 <apiecux> (and I've made a save of the scenario file before :) )
20:34:04 <FLHerne> apiecux: Well, give it a try then - but if your game crashes halfway through, don't pester the devs :P
20:34:31 <FLHerne> I think plans exist for a better scenario format at some point, which might help :-)
20:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be that removing a vehicle grf removed all trains, even the original ones
20:34:41 <apiecux> and it was clear that my scenario didn't depend on the newgrf
20:36:21 <apiecux> Eddi|zuHause: ok you are true, there is no any vehicles when I launch a game with that scenario :.)
20:38:16 <peter1138> it used to be that removing a vehicle grf didn't remove all trains
20:38:18 <peter1138> and then crashed :p
20:38:22 <FLHerne> Perhaps try adding another train grf?
20:38:40 <FLHerne> OpenGFX+ should do if you like the original vehicles
20:39:44 <peter1138> resetengines doesn't do the trick?
20:40:01 <frosch123> if you use the beta, it should reenable the vehicles when starting a scenario
20:40:20 <frosch123> in older versions you can try "resetenginepool"
20:40:34 <frosch123> it works as long as there are no vehicles :)
20:42:37 <Stimrol> Is it possible to ban ip range in the game, like 70.100.*.*
20:43:52 <Sacro> Stimrol: why not use a firewall?
20:44:16 <frosch123> yes, it is possible
20:44:29 <Stimrol> because I always have to call my IPS to make any changes to my router
20:45:51 <peter1138> Stimrol, CIDR notation is supported
20:46:13 *** oskari892 has joined #openttd
20:48:27 <Stimrol> so I could do like this banip 198.51.100.0/22 to ban what next 1024 ip (according to wiki)
20:48:58 <peter1138> it's changed a bit since i wrote it
20:49:04 <peter1138> and as usual i didn't document it properly
20:49:59 <Stimrol> It is anoying to have server, when all this funny griefers coma along and switch ips like there is no tomorrow
20:51:45 * andythenorth knows about them
20:51:52 <andythenorth> there is a bad one called pikka
20:53:03 <frosch123> yeah, and he hides behind varying vocals
20:53:43 <peter1138> or whatever they were
20:54:03 <frosch123> yeah, or he could figure out that there are more vocals to choose from when including other languages
20:54:51 <frosch123> oh, it's vowels apparently
20:54:57 <Stimrol> would be nice like to add to autopilot that same ip could mostly fund two companies and you have to use !resetme, then also force Player to change name to something else than player :)
20:57:07 <andythenorth> peter1138: gone away?
20:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't "w" a vowel in some language? :p
20:57:58 <peter1138> but nobody listens to the welsh
20:58:01 <peter1138> cos you can't understand them
20:58:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't even know how to pronounce that
20:58:57 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: are w and l vowels in german? :p
20:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes u is not a vowel in english
21:02:51 <Stimrol> maybe capital U then :)
21:08:58 <peter1138> w has the sound of OO as in boot and shoot, or of U as in pull. Note, however, that W can also be used as a consonant with the English W sound.
21:11:07 <peter1138> The landscape is always 2 squares smaller than the dimensions specified in the new game settings (for example, 64x64 is always 62x62).
21:11:11 <peter1138> is it always 2 now?
21:11:48 <Rubidium> peter1138: disable freeform map edges
21:12:00 <Rubidium> (in the advanced settings)
21:12:06 <frosch123> but i am not sure whether it should be fixed :p
21:12:57 <frosch123> selecting a 126x254 map size looks weird at most
21:13:16 <peter1138> "why can't i have 128x256 any more?"
21:15:20 <peter1138> frosch123, make it a patch option :p
21:16:04 <peter1138> call it realistic map size just to confuse everyone
21:16:11 <frosch123> i could also append a "-ish" to all numbers
21:16:55 <frosch123> unit system: imperial, metric, si, realistic ?
21:18:58 <__ln__> did you just say the r word
21:20:42 <frosch123> we said it twice, that makes it void
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21:47:52 <andythenorth> custom bridgeheads
21:47:58 <andythenorth> that or diagonal bridges
21:48:05 <andythenorth> but diagonal bridges smell of wee
21:48:37 <Supercheese> Digaonal everything
21:48:51 <Supercheese> Just rotate your monitor 45°
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21:50:02 <Supercheese> How would diagonal tunnels/bridges even work
21:50:15 <Supercheese> Start on two half-tiles? 0_o
21:50:18 <Maedhros> diagonal level crossings!
21:50:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause did that
21:50:46 <Supercheese> "there's a patch for that"
21:50:55 <Supercheese> even diagonal stations
21:51:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i butchered Maedhros' old patch
21:51:28 <Maedhros> heh, well you kept finding problems with my version
21:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i actually solved the most pressing one
21:52:50 <Maedhros> what happened to it all, then?
21:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> which is more flexible than the hacked two-tile-closing in the old diagonal crossing patch
21:55:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and then on top of that i tried to update the diagonal crossing patch, reshuffling some bits on the map array: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_and_adjacent_crossings_r22664.diff
21:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> all that's missing now is the drawing part
21:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> which i couldn't figure out since too much changed with railtypes and all
21:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_crossings_r5911_drawing_part.diff
22:00:42 <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause: nicely done! can't say i understand any of it any more though ;)
22:05:33 <Wolf01> I should update the sloped stations patch, but I forgot how to write code
22:06:16 <peter1138> i should update the curvy stations patch
22:06:22 <peter1138> but i forgot how to finish anything
22:07:03 <Supercheese> Errr, does the OBJ_FLAG_NOT_ON_LAND flag not work in the Scenario editor?
22:07:21 <Supercheese> or hmm, did I screw something up badly
22:07:51 <Supercheese> Yeah, haha, bad copypaste strikes yet again
22:08:47 <Wolf01> the hilarious thing is that I work as a software developer, but 2 weeks ago when I updated the local copy of OpenTTD and I gave a look to the code, the first thing which I sais was "WTF it's written here?"
22:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i never finished anything in my life
22:11:33 <andythenorth> I finished the first episode of Doom
22:13:04 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
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22:15:46 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: keep on going; if you stick to it you might manage immortality
22:16:10 <Supercheese> Must refrain... form trolling the version 2.0 thread
22:16:28 <frosch123> isn't that its only purpose?
22:19:49 <Terkhen> both trolling and making suggestions that would require a rewrite of OpenTTD
22:19:56 <Terkhen> although the frontier between those two is not very clear
22:20:04 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd
22:30:57 <andythenorth> peter1138: no more game?
22:31:01 * andythenorth could use bed tbh
22:33:41 <andythenorth> title was 're: FIRS etc'
22:39:19 <andythenorth> Johnnie says FIRS is too big
22:39:34 <andythenorth> but Zebedee says time for bed
22:39:44 * andythenorth is going to go and listen to people driving badly on snow
22:39:54 <andythenorth> on a blind corner
22:39:58 <oskari89> andythenorth: Played with FIRS, it's quite nice actually
22:40:18 <andythenorth> or just never release
22:41:19 <peter1138> land on dredging sites?
22:42:07 <oskari89> Eddi|zuhause: ^ there was talk of diagonal level crossings and stuff, I think that overlays could be rather easily implemented
22:42:26 <andythenorth> peter1138: that is a nice question
22:42:40 <oskari89> I do not know exactly, but i think so
22:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> knock yourself out
22:43:55 <peter1138> update the railtype specs
22:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> especially in a backwards-compatible way
22:44:34 <peter1138> level crossing sprites, 10 pieces, hmm
22:45:22 <peter1138> disallow diagonal crossings if the sprites are missing :p
22:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: nah, just use the fallback sprites should be fine
22:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> toyland monorail
22:46:43 <__ln__> when's DB going to start ICE traffic to london?
22:46:59 <peter1138> they should start ICE traffic on my local line
22:47:03 <peter1138> cos that's DB-owner
22:47:12 <peter1138> it's not electrified mind you
22:47:24 <__ln__> not all ICEs need electrification
22:47:46 <oskari89> peter1138: Yes, disallowing diagonal crossings if the sprites are missing, OR use those ones as default instead of missing ones
22:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> there are diesel ICEs :p
22:47:56 <peter1138> actually they own the TOC, probably not the actual line
22:48:01 <Maedhros> i don't think sending diesels through the tunnel would go so well...
22:48:46 <frosch123> Maedhros: london has experience with underground steam trains
22:48:52 <frosch123> so, diesel can't be that bad :p
22:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> they have trucks and cars in >8km long tunnels, why should trains be a problem?
22:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just they're too cheap to upgrade the ventilation
22:50:28 <peter1138> the diesels were for my line, not the tunnel :p
22:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: not every german branch line has an ICE either :p
22:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (although some politicians rather liked that)
22:52:56 <peter1138> i suppose 75mph DMUs are okay
22:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also, the train that "ran away" in sweden with the cleaning lady on board was owned by DB
22:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> allegedly it was parked without the brakes on so they wouldn't freeze
23:01:06 <peter1138> hmm, i guess multistop docks breaks oilrigs
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23:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: how so?
23:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> just have 4 "bays" at the sides of the oilrig station, and consider the ones blocked by non-water-tiles to be occupied
23:13:24 <peter1138> eh, no i mean my code breaks it, not a conceptual problem
23:14:13 <peter1138> i probably not ought to abuse roadstops for it either
23:14:40 <peter1138> it's just complicating things :p
23:14:51 <peter1138> seemed a reasonable idea originally
23:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, ideally all *stops should be the same conceptually
23:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> platforms, road bays, ship bays, airport bays
23:19:13 <peter1138> feel free to code that
23:19:55 <peter1138> it's just a little with docks cos the stop->xy isn't the place where ships stop
23:20:33 <peter1138> looking at my code i don't see why it's not working :p
23:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that problem :p
23:21:33 <peter1138> + if (IsTileType(tile, MP_WATER)) {
23:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have some code that, if you hit "print" once, it prints once, and if you hit "print" a second time, it prints four times
23:22:00 <peter1138> if the dock is surrounded by industry tiles
23:24:44 <peter1138> although looking at the code that change shouldn't be there
23:25:19 <peter1138> bet it no longer works at all now :p
23:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's an octomom?
23:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a bond villain
23:31:36 <Supercheese> Perhaps it was truncated, Octomom-something... Octomoment? Octomomentum?
23:31:45 <Supercheese> Octomoment of momentum?
23:38:52 <peter1138> but not for oil rigs :p
23:39:30 <peter1138> i changed the ship_station area from dock tile to docking location
23:39:46 <peter1138> means the stupid iteration in the pathfinder can go
23:39:58 <Pokka> duh @ the "severe performance problem" thread
23:40:22 <Pokka> can someone explain to me why people play 2048* maps
23:40:28 <Pokka> with high towns and high industries
23:41:35 <Pokka> after 240 years of playing the map he's only ever interacted with about 5% of the towns on the map. He could have played a 256*256 map and saved on processing all that map he's never going to use :)
23:44:24 <Supercheese> I suggested he use a smaller map
23:45:04 <Supercheese> I can't remember ever playing a game larger than 512x512
23:45:27 <peter1138> hmm, no, doesn't work. damn.
23:51:24 * Maedhros would sometimes like 384^2 maps
23:51:45 <Maedhros> 512^2 seems far too big, but sometimes i want more space than 256^2
23:51:47 <peter1138> blank half the map :)
23:52:11 <peter1138> well obviously not half
23:53:38 <Maedhros> yeah, it's a first-world problem, really :p
23:53:38 <Supercheese> 512x256 and 256x512 maps are nice
23:54:01 <Supercheese> or make a 512x512 with lots of water around the edges, effectively reducing the size
23:55:17 <peter1138> i hear simutrans allows it
23:55:33 <planetmaker> well. I played larger maps than 512^2. But... 1024^2 is not really playable till the end for many
23:55:52 <Supercheese> Did... did that assassin forget to chamber a round?
23:55:57 <Supercheese> What a colossal moron -_-
23:58:02 <Supercheese> Well, he thankfully failed
23:58:44 <peter1138> they're going into him somewhat
23:58:52 *** Celestar_ has joined #openttd
23:58:55 <Supercheese> He rather deserves it
continue to next day ⏵
