IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-20
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00:00:40 <Supercheese> Hmm, didn't they have armed guards?
00:01:53 <peter1138> will probably have security stepped up a bit now
00:04:48 <FLHerne> Pokka: Multiplayer, with big computers and long games :P
00:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: a "gas pistol" is usually a device that propells its projectiles by gas pressure instead of a small explosion
00:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i played a game on 2048x1024 with very few towns once
00:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> on daylength 4 or 8
00:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i managed a line all the way through
00:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but probably around half the map i still never touched
00:18:33 <peter1138> how do water industries even work?
00:24:26 <Supercheese> it seems it does use powder explosives from that description, though, as opposed to a compressed air pistol
00:36:52 <planetmaker> good night here, too
00:37:09 <Supercheese> Valete, dormituri
01:04:06 <peter1138> oh, maybe this is it
01:04:08 <peter1138> in which case... grrr
01:04:32 <peter1138> yes, fixed it.grrr.
01:13:09 <Supercheese> Fixed is good, no?
01:31:17 <peter1138> yes but i wasted time :p
01:34:10 <Supercheese> Pathfinding weirdness, yeah
01:34:34 <peter1138> for all other types, vehicles stop directly on a station tile
01:34:47 <peter1138> for ships, they stop on a water tile near the station
01:35:24 <peter1138> therefore instead of just checking that the current tile is a station tile it needs to check if the tiles adjacent to the current tile are station tiles
01:36:02 <peter1138> except then there's always 8 to check
01:36:31 <peter1138> so instead it goes through the list of docks for the target station and checks if the tile is the docking tile for that dock
01:37:39 <peter1138> that list will usually be 1 item, so in theory it's only checking 1 instead of 8 tiles
01:38:14 <peter1138> it needs to do that for every tile the pathfinder follows :S
01:39:59 <peter1138> possibly way to simplify it is to add a 3rd invisible dock tile at the docking point that allows ships on it
01:41:09 <peter1138> oh and every step the ship takes it has to check too :S
01:42:22 <Supercheese> Ship pathfinding has always seemed ridiculous...
01:42:56 <Supercheese> When you force them into areas with little room to maneuver, they tend to trigger the "ship is lost" message
01:43:07 <Supercheese> but then they magically fix themselves and are not lost
01:43:25 <peter1138> well give them room then :p
01:43:58 <Supercheese> and ships always no-clip through everything
01:44:09 <Supercheese> other ship in the way? just clip right through...
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01:59:49 <drac_boy> how doing supercheese? and still got any seagulls? :)
02:00:15 <Supercheese> Yep, my object set now has seagulls, ice / ice floes, a shipwreck, and lots of rocks
02:00:27 <Supercheese> next I'm working in frozen rivers/riverbanks
02:02:15 <drac_boy> hope thats only on arctic maps :P
02:02:30 <Supercheese> They're just objects, you can place them or not place them :)
02:03:53 <Supercheese> If/when I get a GameScript able to place objects, though, then yeah, Ice will probably only be for arctic
02:03:56 <drac_boy> well ice != hot weather = tropical
02:04:22 <drac_boy> that aside, how're you Supercheese?
02:04:37 <Supercheese> Hungry, at the moment
02:06:13 <Supercheese> "Food transported this hour: 0. User needs food to grow." :P
02:06:38 <Supercheese> well, growth may not be as desirable in my case ;)
02:07:04 <Supercheese> horizontal rather than vertical :S
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09:13:43 <peter1138> hmmm, i wonder if...
09:27:11 <planetmaker> hm, I should go vote... let's check wahl-o-mat whom to vote for :D
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09:33:21 <Rubidium> planetmaker: if you're conservative, vote for the Fyra. That won't move for a long time ;)
09:33:56 <V453000> if you want to have good fun voting, come to czech republic
09:34:33 <peter1138> hmm, yeah, that works but looks uuuuugly
09:34:56 <planetmaker> fyra? Sounds like a train project in the Netherlands? Not that I really heard much of it... but there's a question about whether the harbours should get better train connectivity here. Which they imho should
09:35:10 <planetmaker> not passenger, but cargo
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09:35:39 <V453000> more beer, less passengers
09:36:03 <planetmaker> less passengers by more beer is also feasible :D
09:37:27 <Rubidium> planetmaker: so how's the third track from Zevenaar towards the Ruhr area going?
09:37:39 <V453000> anything around more beer is very feasible, especially when improved by less people
09:39:57 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's outside the authority which is up to vote by me today
09:40:20 <planetmaker> it's just lower Saxony parliament voting time. Not federal government
09:41:17 <planetmaker> (and honestly, I don't know how it's going)
09:41:53 <peter1138> so multistop docks work
09:42:06 <peter1138> but i don't like the amount of searching it needs :(
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09:47:03 <peter1138> maybe it would be beneficial to test if the current tile is within the area of the docks
09:49:54 <andythenorth> ro-ro all the things
09:50:00 * andythenorth refers to stations
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10:29:43 * FLHerne has only just got past 'drink tea' :P
10:30:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not presently. Is an interesting MP game currently in existence?
10:30:59 <andythenorth> FLHerne: it's on peter1138's server
10:31:06 <andythenorth> we're all paused and waiting for you :P
10:31:23 <FLHerne> What's the IP/server name?
10:31:35 * FLHerne is a bit asleep still
10:32:50 <andythenorth> peter1138's nightly
10:32:59 <FLHerne> Ah, found it. Now I need different NewStats :-/
10:33:09 <FLHerne> Stupid non-Bananas things...
10:33:24 <FLHerne> Nice grf, irritatating distribution policy :D
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10:43:32 * andythenorth needs multi-docks :(
10:43:59 <peter1138> trying to recreate that pbs bug
10:50:08 * andythenorth has livestock issues
10:51:53 <andythenorth> maybe farms should have a lower requirement for supplies than extractive industry
10:52:00 * peter1138 blames it on andythenorth for deliberately crashing his trains in a station
10:52:06 <andythenorth> 'deliberately' :)
11:00:18 <peter1138> new favourite way to play: enable colouring of dirty blocks and hold ctrl-B
11:01:24 <peter1138> industry tiles update a lot
11:01:51 <planetmaker> hm, no supercheese here
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11:29:25 * andythenorth tries to figure out a way to prioritise cargo for some routes
11:29:39 <andythenorth> only loading vehicles for other routes when there's surplus
11:38:10 <Alberth> I was wondering about a distributed approach
11:38:56 <Alberth> each cargo has a destination. A train asks whether it wants to travel along, and the cargo can decide "yeah, you're going in the right direction", and hop on
11:40:08 <Alberth> where the simplest form of 'right direction' is distance to the target from the current location and from the next stop of the train
11:41:01 <Alberth> that might cost virtually no cpu time at all
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11:43:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: manhattan / pythag distance, or pathfinder?
11:44:27 <Alberth> in the first implementation, manhattan would be fine
11:44:59 <andythenorth> so don't bother building the link graph/
11:45:13 <Alberth> the tricky bit where I am still stuck is how to decide the cargo won't get any further, so it is time to do final cost calculations
11:45:59 <planetmaker> Alberth, but that might lead to quite bad results, depending on the topology of the network
11:46:00 <Alberth> link graph is a more advanced form of deciding 'right direction'
11:47:22 <Alberth> planetmaker: I know, but we clearly don't yet understand how to do it efficiently enough when doing it centrally, so it needs a different approach
11:52:21 <fonsinchen> Is that approach n+3 to cargo destinations?
11:52:35 <fonsinchen> I'd say distance to destination is too simple.
11:53:13 <andythenorth> I did once figure out the concept
11:53:14 <Alberth> it is, no doubt about it
11:53:22 <andythenorth> but the implementation was beyond me, even a test :P
11:53:52 <Alberth> but if you start from "we need optimal central path finding", you're never going to find a cheaper alternative
11:54:26 <andythenorth> my concept wasn't guaranteed optimal
11:54:38 <andythenorth> it was shown that it could trivially be 'odd'
11:54:48 <andythenorth> but it was simple
11:55:37 <andythenorth> key thing was that it didn't need a source-destination-cargo triple
11:55:44 <andythenorth> just a destination-cargo pair
11:56:25 <fonsinchen> Why destination? In my experience the most common pitfall is routing each cargo packet individually
11:56:31 <fonsinchen> that is expensive.
11:56:51 <fonsinchen> Cargodist just saves general directions for each source of cargo at each intermediary hop
11:57:06 <andythenorth> idea was to work back from the destination
11:57:07 <fonsinchen> That avoids routing calculations in the game loop.
11:57:24 <andythenorth> just assign a weight to every node, in reverse, working outwards from destination
11:57:30 <andythenorth> destination gets weight 0
11:57:37 <andythenorth> each next link adds 1
11:57:56 <andythenorth> when routing a packet, take any valid route to a lower-weighted node
11:58:06 <fonsinchen> what about parallel routes?
11:58:28 <Alberth> the're both valid, I guess
11:59:04 <andythenorth> so one direct train, or a ship that goes halfway round the map (slowly) are both valid
11:59:11 <andythenorth> which is sub-optimal
11:59:13 <andythenorth> but who cares eh?
11:59:32 <andythenorth> the weightings only need recalculating when the topology changes
11:59:41 <fonsinchen> The who cares question is important.
11:59:56 <fonsinchen> Your algorithm does not take route capacities into account, either.
12:00:07 <andythenorth> oh, I think I decided that the graph was made up of vehicle orders
12:00:10 <fonsinchen> So you could run tons of cargo into a bottleneck.
12:00:20 <andythenorth> so build more vehicles
12:00:38 <andythenorth> or change the route
12:01:00 <andythenorth> it's sub-optimal
12:01:17 <andythenorth> doesn't try to be optimal :)
12:01:31 <fonsinchen> Well, sometimes you want something like a couple of helicopter connections to an oil rig but you don't want everyone traversing the oilrig to get from town A to town B...
12:01:32 <andythenorth> call it StupidDispatcher
12:02:25 <fonsinchen> I know that Cargodist is fairly complex in contrast with the scheme you're proposing. But it also does more.
12:02:32 <andythenorth> another / complementary option: player defines cargo route (is that how simutrans does it?)
12:03:14 <fonsinchen> Simutrans does routing on an individual packet level. That's part of the reason why it's so slow in contrast do openttd.
12:03:33 <fonsinchen> No, the player does not manually define the routes.
12:03:44 <fonsinchen> It's more like YACD.
12:04:11 <fonsinchen> Destinations are predetermined independent of links.
12:05:12 <andythenorth> idea: allow player to manipulate the weighting for a cargo-destination pair at a station :P
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12:05:34 <Alberth> haha, a good idea for total disaster :p
12:05:52 <fonsinchen> nasty micromanagement hassle. We have the same problems with timetables. I guess we don't want to repeat that.
12:10:59 <andythenorth> oil rig case is...intriguing
12:11:08 <andythenorth> because it's by no means the common case
12:11:28 <Wolf01> micromanagemente could be good, some people want it, but I think it should be bypassable, at least we can play OTTD also without using timetables :P
12:12:02 <andythenorth> I can't think of a way to handle special cases using generic methods
12:12:05 <fonsinchen> You can also take the example of local bus networks of two towns intersecting at some remote station where once a month a bus arrives.
12:12:32 <andythenorth> so that resolves to link capacity?
12:12:45 <andythenorth> (I think the oil rig case is best ignored, it's the helicopters that matter)
12:13:04 <Wolf01> you should be able to define some stations as hubs and don't let the cargo be transferred in non-hub stations
12:13:09 <drac_boy> Wolf01 I always play 'simple' anyway ... that mean skipping most of the extra features even schedulings too :)
12:13:13 <fonsinchen> Taking link capacity into account avoids sending too much cargo through that station.
12:13:30 <andythenorth> how is link capacity reliably calculated? Empirically?
12:13:41 <fonsinchen> Measured as a moving average.
12:13:57 <Wolf01> where "transferred" is not the transfer order but the destination handling
12:14:16 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I can't think of any other viable method ;)
12:14:30 <fonsinchen> Cargodist does it with moving averages.
12:14:31 <andythenorth> trying to predict link capacity from vehicle speed etc is....meh
12:14:43 <fonsinchen> I can think of a better method though.
12:15:45 <andythenorth> do you measure cargo transported, or actual capacity available?
12:16:05 <andythenorth> and what does auto-refit do to your stats?
12:16:25 <fonsinchen> There is a funny prediction mechanism for that
12:16:51 <fonsinchen> basically, if you do autorefit it does not work so accurately.
12:22:12 <andythenorth> my concept is screwed by auto-refit
12:22:27 <andythenorth> there's no way to calculate the cargo-destination pairs using orders
12:23:24 * andythenorth has a totally insane idea
12:23:25 <fonsinchen> Oh, you can get pretty far with orders. Cargodist actually does that when a vehicle does full load or similar.
12:23:41 <andythenorth> 'refit' stations to handle cargos
12:23:53 <andythenorth> station is either on the graph for a cargo, or not
12:24:27 <andythenorth> and vehicles are universal and auto-refit :P
12:24:44 <andythenorth> so routing is about nodes, and not the links
12:25:58 <fonsinchen> That would piss off quite a few grf authors designing specific vehicles for specific cargo ...
12:26:02 <andythenorth> currently nodes are transparent wrt cargo; the links specify what's transported :)
12:26:11 <andythenorth> fonsinchen it would turn the game on its head :P
12:26:24 <andythenorth> NUTS would be ideal for it though
12:27:01 <fonsinchen> Well, explain it Ammler and see what he says ...
12:27:44 <fonsinchen> I have to leave. Bye
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12:43:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24923 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-01-20 12:43:25 UTC)
12:43:32 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5441]: When an object built on a river is removed, restore the river, if possible also on slopes (based on patch by Supercheese)
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13:11:38 <juanjo> peter1138: is there any way to see how you deal with multidocks? i would like to see how you manage certain details i never could get through.
13:11:59 <peter1138> hmm, which details?
13:14:24 <juanjo> opf was the worse one. oil rigs were also troublesome for my implementation.
13:14:37 <peter1138> i didn't bother for opf
13:14:42 <peter1138> it just targets the first dock built
13:16:29 <juanjo> do ships select an empty dock?
13:16:44 <peter1138> i have not implemented that
13:16:47 <peter1138> they just go to the nearest
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13:19:03 <juanjo> so when they look for next destination, they choose the dock that is nearest, do they?
13:20:14 <peter1138> nope, they go the area the docks cover and find the docks from there
13:20:24 <peter1138> to be honest it's a bit magical for me :p#
13:20:46 <peter1138> i remember road vehicles used to pick a specific slot and then go to it, but that got changed at some point
13:24:03 <juanjo> so, you don't need to store a pool for docks. nice
13:24:38 <frosch123> rv still pick and reserve a specific stop
13:25:28 <frosch123> the sum of the length of rv having an reservation affects the pathfinder cost, so rv can balance between the stops
13:25:39 <frosch123> though i guess they only reserve when they are somewhat nearby
13:27:14 <juanjo> i'll have to check road vehicles then :-)
13:50:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24924 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-01-20 13:50:10 UTC)
13:50:17 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24923): Make sure that autoslope on steep coast tiles cannot not leave invalid canals
14:00:39 <peter1138> frosch123, afaik they don't reserve
14:00:58 <peter1138> frosch123, if a spot is marked as occupied the pathfinder will prefer a different spot
14:01:09 <andythenorth> diagonal tunnels anyone? :P
14:01:17 <andythenorth> for making tubes :P
14:01:31 <peter1138> the original version of the current version did reserve, but iirc led to some awkward situations
14:01:49 <peter1138> they reserved 16 tiles in advance
14:01:54 <peter1138> which is far for rvs
14:01:56 * FLHerne would love diagonal bridges and tunnels
14:02:09 <frosch123> ah, yeah, maybe it only considers vehicles already stopeed
14:02:46 <FLHerne> Presumably fancier bridgeheads/entrances (at least allowing diagonal track) would be needed for that?
14:03:11 <peter1138> there was an original-original version that was different again but you'd have to go back some revisions to find that
14:04:37 <peter1138> i could make multistop docks occupy slots
14:04:45 <peter1138> but it's rv-centric atm
14:05:05 <peter1138> was thinking of renaming RoadStop to MultiStop, heh
14:05:21 <peter1138> or... VehicleStop? who knows
14:05:51 <peter1138> cos they're off-map it would be possible to reference the fabled state machine in there too :p
14:36:04 <andythenorth> I would like to subscribe to your VehicleStop newsletter please
14:36:13 <andythenorth> anyone ever played FIRS?
14:42:31 <andythenorth> considering reducing the amount of supplies needed to boost farms
14:43:54 <NGC3982> Not that i know how that works, but i have observed that farm production doesnt increase with farm supplies, like mineral industries increases production with eng.supplies.
14:44:05 <NGC3982> Or is that just something in my head?
14:51:56 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24925 /trunk/src (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt) (2013-01-20 14:51:50 UTC)
14:51:57 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5395]: Add a tooltip to the mapsize selection mentioning possible deviations.
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15:02:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24926 trunk/src/stdafx.h (2013-01-20 15:02:28 UTC)
15:02:34 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5373]: Check integer min/max macros individually, and define them if missing.
15:03:38 <NGC3982> andythenorth: So, that notion is false?
15:06:01 <peter1138> andythenorth's losing!
15:11:21 <andythenorth> peter1138: baby minding here :(
15:15:03 <peter1138> naughty fishing harbour
15:15:12 <peter1138> extends past the tile edge :S
15:15:17 <andythenorth> I should fix that :P
15:29:35 <andythenorth> maybe the FIRS boost is a bit volative
15:31:23 <andythenorth> benefit of current method: simple
15:31:39 <andythenorth> disadvantage: production collapses easily if a vehicle jam happens
15:34:23 <peter1138> bah, renaming roadstops is way too much work :p
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15:38:17 <andythenorth> get NGC3982 to do it
15:40:02 <peter1138> plus they're saved with the chunk tag of "ROAD" :p
15:40:42 <andythenorth> it's all hopeless :P
15:41:01 <andythenorth> there's nothing left to do but
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15:41:44 <andythenorth> can't you see what I mean?
15:41:50 <andythenorth> might as well jump
15:43:41 <andythenorth> nobody answered my FIRS question
15:45:19 <V453000> is there any way how to make one vehicle introduce another?
15:45:34 <V453000> Like, I have wagons which fit to a vehicle, is it possible to unify their introduction date?
15:45:50 <V453000> because if I set the same value the game still randomizes it in the span of 2 years or whatnot
15:58:56 <Pokka> there was some talk at one point of a flag to not randomise the vehicle's intro date
15:59:34 <planetmaker> rather like a flag "introduction same as ID XY"
16:00:39 <V453000> would make some sense to have that I think, though not massively necessary, in my case I just have wagons arrive 2 years earlier. Does not hurt and when you see the vehicle being introduced in the news you know you can use it, so no harm anywhere
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16:17:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24927 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-01-20 16:17:24 UTC)
16:17:31 <DorpsGek> -Cleanup [FS#5440]: No need to check a positive value to be larger than 0
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16:31:21 <Hyperion> question from a beginner. How do I know whether I have too many vehicles picking up from a resource?
16:31:43 <Hyperion> I mean, is there an optimal way to do it?
16:32:02 <andythenorth> is there a big queue?
16:32:12 <andythenorth> big queue => too many
16:32:27 <planetmaker> Hyperion, there's too many when the entrance is jammed and vehicles wait on an empty station to pickup cargo
16:34:03 <Hyperion> What if I have 2 trucks in a loading bay, one is creeping up from 50% and the other is waiting at 0%
16:35:20 <Hyperion> ok, how about the idea of supply/demand - if I have one vehicle making trips and easily filling 100% and always a stockpile at the resource, is this worse than having the situation i just mentioned?
16:35:34 <Hyperion> in terms of the production increasing over time
16:35:45 <andythenorth> get more vehicles in that case
16:35:58 <planetmaker> one vehicle loading, the other already waiting to start loading is best in terms of increasing production on primary industries
16:37:58 <Hyperion> thanks guys. is the spacing between vehicles important, then?
16:38:10 <Hyperion> in terms of where they are on the route relative to eachother
16:38:28 <planetmaker> no. It only matters that you always load cargo
16:38:57 <Hyperion> right. so the resource should always be in the vehicles debt, not the reverse?
16:39:30 <Hyperion> ok. i was worried about wasting resources by having vehicles waiting at 0%, but that seems ok
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16:39:54 <Hyperion> i mean, wasting money
16:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have not enough money, you're probably doing something wrong :)
16:40:36 <planetmaker> Hyperion, "ok" is also a very relative thing :-) Depends on your goal. You might make more money, if you do not fulfill the goal to "always load" by a thin margin
16:41:09 <planetmaker> But long-term you get higher output by always fulfilling the condition to load continuously
16:41:19 <planetmaker> so the time horizon matters
16:41:44 <planetmaker> also the amount of micro-management you want to put in:
16:42:09 <planetmaker> like buy 4 vehicles for that station. Initially it will be crowded and unneeded. But it means it takes some time before you have to come back and add more vehicles
16:42:23 <planetmaker> Time which you could better spend on improving your company elsewhere
16:42:42 <peter1138> is that what i'm meant to be doing?
16:42:45 <planetmaker> As time to build is the limiting factor at a default game after ~10 ingame years worth of playing
16:42:53 <peter1138> i just end up watching trains moving along tracks :p
16:43:20 <Hyperion> will primary resource production move up naturally or does it depend on this situation of "always load" ?
16:43:27 <Pokka> that's why you're losing, peter1138
16:43:43 <planetmaker> Hyperion, it depends on the station rating...
16:44:10 <Hyperion> the % transported stat?
16:44:33 <peter1138> Pokka, it's your fault
16:44:53 <michi_cc> peter1138: That's the reason I want a daylength path for. How are you supposed to watch your nice vehicles if there's a new one all the time :p
16:45:17 <andythenorth> peter1138: you losing? o_O
16:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: +1 :p
16:45:39 <peter1138> actually yacd first ;)
16:45:58 <peter1138> pikka and andy are joint third losers
16:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "2nd is just the first loser"?
16:46:29 <peter1138> actually andy's got the most money
16:46:34 <andythenorth> I got bored of the silly FIRS production
16:46:37 <peter1138> but pikka's gonna catch him
16:46:50 <andythenorth> is my Toob not printing money?
16:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but no opengfx allowed :p
16:47:27 <peter1138> who uses opengfx anyway?
16:48:00 <Pokka> which is why it's odd you leave the track building tools for finescale tracks on openttd graphics ;)
16:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: all the newbies that don't know any better
16:48:46 <peter1138> you should label it opengfx not openttd
16:49:07 <peter1138> and make a new release just for that!
16:49:10 <Hyperion> whats wrong with opengfx?
16:49:27 <andythenorth> my zeps are simply Super!
16:49:53 <Pokka> they even make a profit
16:51:02 <Pokka> look at this filthy brarnpool to confingford railway
16:51:53 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: anyone was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 2 weeks, 2 days, 0 hours, 24 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <anyone> hi
16:55:03 <me> ok well i need info what did they use to develop TTD
16:55:35 <Pokka> a fork and a bag of string
16:55:37 <planetmaker> time, patience and many electrons
16:56:30 <peter1138> a text editor was probably involved
16:56:36 <Pokka> the money and experience from porting Frontier: Elite II to the PC?
16:57:05 <me> do you guy know how games are made
16:57:56 <Alberth> by designing them, and for computer games, followed by implementing them in a computer language
16:58:44 <planetmaker> me, you really want to consider your questions... a question like "how do you write a computer game" simply can't be answered...
16:59:08 <planetmaker> ... except by more or less lengthy articles
17:01:19 <me> Alberth nope first get a 3d modeler and the start programming in C++ make a game engine and more. im not DUm i am a game designer myself i thourt you may kome what TTd was made with becuse it's the same UI and land as roller coaster tycoon 2
17:02:10 <Alberth> me: right, that's a far more specific question
17:02:20 <Pokka> getting a 3d modeler is definitely the first stage in making a game...
17:02:34 <Alberth> me: 3d modelers didn't exist at the time TTD was created
17:02:38 <planetmaker> yes. a game. But we're playing THE game here ;-)
17:02:43 <peter1138> Alberth, bet they did :p
17:02:47 <andythenorth> isn't there a wiki page about how OpenTTD was reverse engineered?
17:02:53 <andythenorth> maybe even a wikipedia page
17:02:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, not even the question
17:03:08 <andythenorth> I am taking him at face value :P
17:03:20 <peter1138> ttd and rct were hand written assembly
17:03:25 <Alberth> me: Roller Coaster 2 is the TTD engine, 2 generations later
17:04:05 <peter1138> it was made ... by coding assembly instructions o_O
17:04:11 <me> andythenorth thats what im looking for. Alberth i got that one any idea of what it's called
17:05:32 <andythenorth> has background, not much detail
17:05:47 <Ammler> oh, rct has map rotation :-o
17:05:51 <andythenorth> Pikka: you haz a plane?
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17:06:08 <planetmaker> yes, seems like Ammler :-)
17:06:39 <Alberth> Ammler: yep, new engine feature in RCT (and quite needed imho)
17:07:06 <peter1138> anyone tried map rotation in ottd?
17:07:15 <peter1138> obviously ignoring the sprite issues
17:07:19 <planetmaker> with sprites all new, you can do that. As long as people here are like "TTD" it won't happen
17:07:35 <Ammler> planetmaker: you don't need that many new sprites, do you?
17:07:59 <planetmaker> depends. Not that many. Of the order of 1k ... 2k
17:08:18 <planetmaker> no new road/rail/bridge/landscape/vehicle sprites needed
17:08:19 <Ammler> many things you can rotate already
17:08:22 <planetmaker> only houses + industries
17:08:30 <Ammler> only non square houses
17:08:42 <planetmaker> well. All houses. Would look funky otherwise
17:08:46 <Ammler> many industries are also made with square support
17:09:03 <Ammler> you don't need to rotate a square house
17:09:09 <frosch123> planetmaker: depends whether you ignore light direction for landscape :p
17:09:09 <planetmaker> But most of base sets are landscape, vehicles + gui
17:09:21 <planetmaker> :-) yes, I do, frosch123
17:09:37 <Alberth> throw in some zbase render time? :p
17:10:20 <peter1138> planetmaker, anyway, i said ignoring the sprites
17:10:31 <Alberth> not sure whether it actually works, maybe Z didn't completely model all sides
17:10:33 <peter1138> planetmaker, i.e. actually done code changes to rotate it all
17:10:34 <planetmaker> that's a pointless pre-condition peter1138
17:11:03 <Ammler> but not reason not to try
17:11:47 <me> i see but also if you look at simcity 2000 and te sims 1 and simcity 3000 te terrain was te same
17:23:14 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24928 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp (2013-01-20 17:23:08 UTC)
17:23:15 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5408]: [Squirrel] Update line information before processing 'while' token of 'do'-'while' statement.
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17:51:50 <andythenorth> by FIRS supplies still
17:52:43 <andythenorth> production is 1x, 2x (boost), 4x (extra boost)
17:53:01 <andythenorth> this leads to wild fluctuations in available cargo
17:53:15 <andythenorth> which is useful in a cargo-goal challenge
17:53:19 <andythenorth> but not otherwise
17:53:24 <planetmaker> depends on the integration time really
17:53:41 <andythenorth> if you want a nice steady game, the 2x then 4x boost is a PITA
17:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mimic the behaviour of smooth economy :)
17:54:11 <andythenorth> it's very hard to tune
17:54:23 <andythenorth> the needs of a collaborative MP game with 7 year cargo goal
17:54:26 <andythenorth> are very different
17:54:28 <planetmaker> like 10% increases and 10% decreases
17:54:31 <andythenorth> to playing SP for 100 years
17:55:11 <planetmaker> so not 3 levels but... 10. With like every level requiring 3 supplies more or so
17:55:15 <andythenorth> the easy way is a parameter
17:55:24 <andythenorth> but that's Yet Another Fricking Parameter To Forget
17:55:28 <andythenorth> when setting up an MP game
17:55:50 <planetmaker> not as parameter. As change to existing
17:56:11 <planetmaker> i.e. make levels not *2 but +10 or so
17:56:37 <planetmaker> and needed supplies not *2 but +5. Or whatever
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18:23:34 <oskari89> Oh why there's no sorting of different types of locomotives and other rolling stock stuff in the rail vehicle replacement window?
18:24:09 <oskari89> I would like to arrange them by speed but can't
18:24:23 <oskari89> Those seem to be arranged by vehicle ID's
18:24:50 <planetmaker> unless the sorting is re-arranged by the NewGRF(s) :-)
18:25:05 <peter1138> planetmaker, internal detail ;)
18:25:31 <frosch123> i am quite sure that item is on the todo list :p
18:25:58 <peter1138> i think i saw it too
18:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: it shouldn't be too hard to copy the behaviour of the purchase window
18:29:37 <frosch123> "it shouldn't be too hard"... can we ban this sentence?
18:30:24 <Alberth> ask the bot that kicks !commands :p
18:31:27 <peter1138> "i'm not a programmer but this shouldn't be too hard"
18:32:42 <frosch123> yeah, just rotate the sprite
18:32:53 <frosch123> every graphics program can rotate sprites in 90° steps
18:34:14 <Zuu> Can't we just rotate the view 90 degreen as most graphics cards have a setting (to use when showing on a vertical monitor)
18:34:58 <Zuu> Then we can put a check for "can rotate the view" and everyone will be happy that we have "rotatable view" in the feature list?
18:43:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24929 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2013-01-20 18:43:49 UTC)
18:43:56 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5415]: Don't try to pause or unpause crashed scripts.
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24930 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-01-20 18:45:34 UTC)
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> french - 2 changes by glx
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> german - 3 changes by planetmaker
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> irish - 11 changes by ioo5
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 110 changes by Tucalipe
18:45:52 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:47:00 <frosch123> he, translators managed to get below 30k missing strings!
18:48:40 <planetmaker> nice. The call for translators really seems to work. We're still getting a somewhat steady stream of people who apply as new translators
18:49:33 <frosch123> i remember somewhat like a year ago, when i asked whether translators would first reach 25k or ottd would first reach r25k... but rb laughed me off like we would never reach r25 so fast :p
18:49:34 <oskari89> Someone could update that on the front page, which are already done, remove them completely from list
18:50:38 <planetmaker> well... I don't see hitting < 25k strings (if that was the direction the statement was intended)
18:51:17 <frosch123> yes, it was. translators slowed down just like the commits
18:52:03 <planetmaker> oskari89, the front page is up to date
18:56:56 <planetmaker> but we got in the last 7 days new translators for Urdu, Esperanto, Turkish, Irish, Hebrew, Simplified Chinese... half of those languages need a translator urgently
18:58:27 <frosch123> well, if ottd would be as popular in asia as in europe, it would be no issue at all to find an urdu translator :p
18:59:13 <planetmaker> I should bully my Pakistan collegue to translate ;-)
19:00:49 <joey8> can anyone tell me why when i buy a plane with a high percentage reliability crashes within one flight
19:01:35 <planetmaker> crashes are not related to reliability. But happen any case with low chance. Or high chance, if the aircraft is large and the airport small
19:01:36 <Zuu> reliability have nothing to do with the chance of crashes
19:01:48 <planetmaker> All on the condition that aircraft crashes are not switched off in the adv. settings
19:02:30 <joey8> planetmaker➤ Oh ok thanx mate
19:02:32 <Zuu> reliability only affect the chance of the aircraft to "break down" in the air. A broken down aircraft will emit smoke and fly slower than usual but not crash.
19:03:13 <joey8> i am very unlucky - they keep crashing
19:03:27 <planetmaker> large planes on small airport... :-)
19:03:54 <joey8> planetmaker➤ ok thanx i will build a bigger airport
19:04:16 <Zuu> Isn't the chance 1 in 5 or something like that for large planes or small airport. (with original chances)
19:04:16 <planetmaker> lists small and big planes
19:04:23 <planetmaker> yes, I think so, Zuu
19:05:14 <Zuu> The other probability with a large enough airport for the plane is something like 1 in 30. IIRC
19:05:44 <planetmaker> hm... the UI doesn't tell whether an aircraft is large or small?
19:06:06 <Zuu> No, only with certain plane sets
19:06:26 <Zuu> Eg. av8 have some GUI element that show this.
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19:06:54 <planetmaker> yes. as newgrf extra string. Thus you have to go a cetrain way as author to supply it.
19:06:54 <Zuu> For default aircraft, you will need to set a custom company colour for small or large aircraft to see which ones that are large/small in the buy menu.
19:07:55 <Zuu> Or you are an AI, and use the available API method. :-)
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19:30:52 <Rubidium> frosch123: so quickly dump something big into trunk so we are getting way about 30k again?
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19:35:57 <frosch123> new(maparray) or (newmap)array?
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19:40:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: FLHerne ^^
19:41:59 <andythenorth> conditional orders
19:42:03 <andythenorth> do people actually do that ?
19:42:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Muchly. Handy with autorefit
19:43:05 <FLHerne> Not yet in this game though
19:59:41 <planetmaker> you should like open your own server channel...
20:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. because we very much hate it when people talk about playing the game in here
20:16:53 <Rubidium> yeah, we should talk about colobot again ;)
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21:50:23 <andythenorth> peter1138: end of game?
21:50:33 <peter1138> carry on if you wish
21:50:45 <andythenorth> worky worky tomorrow
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22:46:06 <__ln__> why isn't there a translation in occitan?
22:48:02 <Supercheese> arctan only goes from -π/2 to π/2... oh wait-
22:49:05 <__ln__> no, no, other kind of tan
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