IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-17
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00:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> Supercheese: If GSes are allowed to construct NewObjects and identify specific objects from specific NewGRFs, then *someone* could maintain a GS library which contain code for using specific NewObjects of specific NewGRFs. This library could then expose a public interface that allows "build station eye candy near station X", "build windmills near X,Y" etc. <-- sounds rather like an AI-Callback use
00:26:06 <Superuser> so I'm thinking of buying a higher-end Android phone. How is OpenTTD for Android? I hope it uses a UI that scales a bit better to a touchscreen? (the buttons on the window decoration are a tad small)
00:27:15 <NGC3982> Does it really exist in an official version?
00:27:39 <NGC3982> It doesn't work at all on my Galaxy S2, but i can't say if that's the phone or me making trouble.
00:27:51 <Superuser> I don't think it's official, but it exists.
00:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no special code to handle UI scaling, just use BigGUI grf and adjust font size
00:30:56 <Superuser> have you tried it on an Android phone though? Maybe it scales better than expected Eddi?
00:31:16 * NGC3982 is trying it out right now.
00:31:26 <NGC3982> It doesn't scale anything
00:31:45 <NGC3982> Maximum resolution creates a square around the mouse pointer, following you on the screen.
00:31:51 <NGC3982> At least that's what i recon so far.
00:32:25 <NGC3982> Ok, i got it to scale
00:32:37 <NGC3982> 4:3 ratio, and the graphics are flickering like crazy
00:32:42 <NGC3982> And the MIDI music sounds like someone died.
00:33:23 <NGC3982> I actually got it to work
00:33:37 <NGC3982> Superuser: Are you able to try right now?
00:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i do not have such a phone
00:34:38 <Superuser> I have a fucking shit phone
00:34:50 <Superuser> HTC Wildfire, the original. Cheapest Android phone ever released to my knowledge
00:34:57 <Superuser> Fucking sucks balls
00:35:09 <NGC3982> My word, it actually works
00:35:28 <NGC3982> Superuser: Yes, that is not a well built Android phone, id say.
00:36:02 <Superuser> play some, please tell us of your impressions
00:36:47 <NGC3982> It scales to my full window
00:36:53 <NGC3982> And i have set it to spyglass view
00:37:17 <NGC3982> That is, as soon as i touch the window, it gives a zoomed block around my pointer
00:37:41 <NGC3982> Not an in-game zoom, but a scaled picture (that shows a similar size block compared to a LCD monitor)
00:37:51 <NGC3982> Two finger movements scrolls the map
00:38:00 <NGC3982> Badly, but it seems to be configurable
00:38:20 <NGC3982> Pinching uses the in-game zoom out
00:40:28 <NGC3982> I guess this can be configurable correctly
00:40:46 <NGC3982> But zooming by pinching and moving on the map with two fingers does create some problems.
00:41:39 <NGC3982> Oh, the return button represent the delete button on a keyboard, by default
00:42:03 <NGC3982> Superuser: I would not use this to actually build anything on a screen as small as this
00:42:23 <NGC3982> But with a tab and a bigger GUI, i wouldnt say there are any problems at all
00:46:39 <NGC3982> Conclusion: On smart phones, it's monitorable. On tabs, fully playable with some configuration.
00:52:39 <Superuser> put that on the ottd roadmap ;)
00:53:26 <Superuser> also NGC3982, no sane defaults? It ships with the normal config?
00:54:22 <NGC3982> The config is what i can se sparse
00:54:36 <NGC3982> I cant find hotkeys, for instance.
00:54:50 <NGC3982> You can activate the keyboard
00:55:00 <NGC3982> But i do not understand how to - for instance - ctrl+click.
00:59:59 <Superuser> oh I play nethack on my android phone occasionally
01:00:07 <Superuser> you need to use ?123
01:00:13 <Superuser> if I recall correctly
01:00:23 <Superuser> wait let me fish it out of the plug NGC3982
01:04:54 <Superuser> for* some reason Nethack for Android uses a non-standard android keyboard
01:05:10 <Superuser> that is not the Sense UI one that comes with the phone
01:08:03 <Superuser> poo, still trying to find how to press Ctrl
01:09:10 <NGC3982> This feels more like a fun thing then actual gameplay.
01:10:03 <Superuser> do you think it would work on a tablet, perhaps?
01:11:45 <Superuser> NetHack adds a Ctrl button, it's just on the right side of the screen and I didn't notice it lol
01:12:37 <Superuser> note that NetHack is probably the most complicated roguelike of all time. Hence, there is actually a difference between uppercase and lowercase letters, and there are also combinations (e.g. Meta[Alt] and d) and Ctrl+something
01:17:25 <Superuser> who is the OpenTTD for Android man? Is there an issue tracker for it? FlySpray doesn't accept 'Android' as an OS...
01:21:13 <Superuser> Argh, sorry, but em, peter1138?
01:21:41 <NGC3982> I managed to set hotkey
01:22:07 <NGC3982> One can bind a hotkey to a physical button
01:22:16 <NGC3982> I chose my settings button
01:22:25 <NGC3982> It works, but is barely usable.
01:22:35 <Supercheese> Pelya is the OTTD Android dude
01:22:37 <Superuser> needs more sane defaults, right?
01:23:24 <Superuser> I guess I have to sign up for the forum
01:23:59 <NGC3982> Superuser: Sane and sane, i wouldn't say it seems possible to make it better than this.
01:24:07 <Superuser> I was unable to log into the forum with my website (e.g. translator) credentials
01:24:22 <NGC3982> It's for all i know not a good idea to run a multi-button game in a ..two button phone.
01:24:28 <Superuser> well, if you're going around fixing everything, it's NOT sane
01:24:33 <Supercheese> Android OTTD runs nicely on my 10" Toshiba Thrive tablet
01:24:40 <Superuser> also, I thought Android phones have to have 3 buttons?
01:24:48 <Superuser> used to be 4, like on my old shitty phone
01:25:16 <Supercheese> I dunno, my tablet has on-screen buttons, very few hardware buttons, just for on/off, volume, and screen lock
01:25:23 <NGC3982> Superuser: Well, yeah. But, touch buttons doesn't really work for this, i notice.
01:25:25 <Superuser> who is the integrated for OpenTTD online services Supercheese?
01:25:36 <NGC3982> Try holding a touch button while clicking the screen was barely possible
01:25:47 <Superuser> should merge it with the forum
01:25:57 <Supercheese> who should merge which?
01:26:10 <Superuser> forum with BaNaNaS accoutns
01:26:18 <Superuser> a systems administrations expert
01:26:39 <Supercheese> yes, account merging, been discussed I think
01:26:54 <Supercheese> TrueBrain would be the fellow behind BaNaNaS and the like
01:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: maybe a "sticky" button would be better? like you click on it, and the next click counts as ctrl being pressed?
01:27:09 <Supercheese> I dunno what the status is on account linking etc.
01:27:14 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Absolutely.
01:27:35 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: And i would prefer that button to be choosable, maybe by holding it down for a second.
01:27:37 <Superuser> want one of these so badly. It was actually well-reviewed, which surprised me
01:28:00 <Supercheese> the camera on my tablet works for my picture-taking needs, which are very few and far between :P
01:28:12 <NGC3982> Galaxy Tab 10.1 <- Would that be sufficient for AOpenTTD?
01:29:17 <Superuser> anyway supercheese, I suppose the Android port is unofficial and you don't accept reports for it in FlySpray?
01:29:38 <Supercheese> A correct assumption as far as I am aware
01:31:39 <Superuser> yeah, Android is not listed under the 'Operating System' field, which is probably intentional
01:31:45 <Supercheese> Eddi, any idea what frosch was saying when he mentioned, "Trying to change vehicle properties depending on current date will cause desyncs"?
01:32:09 <Supercheese> (or well, if anyone has further information)
01:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> he could mean that the power etc. values are cached, so they only change on certain triggers like switching to another railtype, servicing in depot and such
01:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't use _current_ date for them, but you could very well use the _service_ date
01:33:29 <Supercheese> Ah, so there would be a difference
01:33:34 <Supercheese> between the two variables
01:34:11 <Supercheese> Then power could be made to decrease as a function of date_of_last_service
01:36:01 <Supercheese> I could have sword that variable was *days* since last service, not date
01:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather think the supposed desync reason should be solved
01:37:16 <Superuser> Just buy a stylus!!!
01:37:33 <Superuser> you will never be bored on the bus again :)))
01:38:27 <Superuser> also holy shit ottd for android has over 100k downloads
01:38:33 <Superuser> not sure if that includes updates to it
01:38:44 <Supercheese> it probably includes updates
01:38:54 <Superuser> why kill the dreams ;_;
01:39:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so, who'll be uploading to the windows store? ;p
01:40:30 <Superuser> you need to pay $99
01:40:44 <Supercheese> windows store? I don't want to know...
01:40:50 <Superuser> also I'm not sure if the GPL is allowed on the Windows store
01:40:57 <Superuser> VLC had to relicense to LGPL, for instance
01:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it's the same as the apple store, just for windows...
01:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i have used either one...
01:41:56 <Supercheese> I will continue to not use it, then
01:42:18 <APTX> I wonder why people care about the windows store
01:42:23 <Supercheese> Google play store's the only thing of that kind I use
01:42:30 <APTX> it's for metro apps and metro is crap
01:42:31 <Supercheese> and I only ever download free stuff
01:43:03 <Superuser> it's also for games, and games don't have to use Microsoft's proprietary technologies
01:43:09 <Superuser> the app store and games store are separate.
01:43:40 <Superuser> Also VLC successfully crowdfunded a port to Windows 8 Metro which amongst other things created a mingw-64 compiler
01:43:46 <Superuser> a serious one at least
01:44:46 <Superuser> open source is communist and unamerican!! (quote from microsoft man)
01:44:55 <Supercheese> Micro$oft, no surprise there
01:47:09 <Superuser> no wonder oftc's domain ends in .su huehuehue
01:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: that was 12 years ago...
01:47:29 <Superuser> doubt they've changed much
01:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that was when linux was The Evil, not apple
01:48:09 <Supercheese> Good lord, strange to realize 2001 was 12 years ago
01:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: the typical counterargument to "opensource is unamerican" is: "yeah, that's why BSD stands for Berkley Software Development"
01:50:02 <Superuser> Distribution. It's distribution.
01:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> surely that was the point i was trying to make :p
01:52:06 <glx> <Superuser> Also VLC successfully crowdfunded a port to Windows 8 Metro which amongst other things created a mingw-64 compiler <-- mingw-w64 existed way before
01:55:16 <Supercheese> Hmm, I can't seem to find a way to check if a newobject is built at the map edge...
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01:56:45 <MinchinWeb> anyone know how to get a list of just tram depots using NoAI?
01:57:41 <Supercheese> I don't see any map-position variables available
02:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: stations and industries certainly have it, but industry tiles or object tiles... no idea
02:00:43 <Supercheese> Industries have it?
02:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> MinchinWeb: valuate the list of road depots by the roadtype?
02:01:39 <Supercheese> I don't see any absolute-map-position variables anywhere, only positions relative to the top tile of the object/industry
02:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. for stations it's inaccessible because 80+ variables only start at offset 10
02:04:40 <MinchinWeb> Eddi|zuHause: I'll try it, thanks
02:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> for industries it's var 80
02:05:40 <Supercheese> What is that in NML? :P
02:07:43 <Supercheese> Oh, right, there's a var() function
02:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: also, the map edge consists of VOID tiles, so the land info variable should be able to tell you that
02:13:15 <Superuser> glx: okay, that's just what they said for their Kickstarter campaign
02:13:23 <Superuser> though it may have been 'making it decent' or something like that
02:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't that long ago that mingw64 came with a warning sign like "totally broken, do not use"
02:17:50 <Supercheese> wait, there are only void tiles at the bottom edges of the map?
02:18:20 <glx> I would try it if I wasn't afraid to break my working mingw/msys install
02:22:39 <MinchinWeb> ok, next (dumb) question, how do you get the location of a depot?
02:25:30 <MinchinWeb> so I think I figured this out... AIDepotList() gives you a list of tiles, rather than DepotID's
02:25:51 <MinchinWeb> so I'm starting with a location rather than a ID... much easier :)
02:42:26 <Supercheese> Huh, there's no TILE_CLASS_VOID in NML, but a value of 0x07 seems to be just that
03:26:19 <Supercheese> No, void tiles exist all around the map
03:26:34 <Supercheese> Thanks Eddi, I have the check for void tiletype working :)
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04:25:21 <Supercheese> Hmm, seems I accidentally confused a user whose name begins with trainmaster with a user whose name begins with trainman
05:30:11 * Supercheese wonders just how random nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0)) % some_number is
05:30:25 <Supercheese> Bah, ignore that extra parenthesis
05:32:55 <Rubidium> at best it's pseudo random
05:33:34 <Supercheese> It works fine, I'm just curious
05:40:16 <Supercheese> Hmm, O hotkey for object placement not global by default
05:40:26 * Supercheese edits hotkeys.cfg
05:43:03 <Supercheese> Man, I cannot figure this out, why are my objects' ambient sound effects only playing in temperate, and not in arctic or tropic? What could possibly be going wrong? :S
05:43:41 <Supercheese> Some weird things in sound effect IDs?
05:48:24 <Supercheese> Perhaps NML is retuning the wrong number(s) in the high bytes
05:49:57 * Supercheese inspects NML source
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06:07:38 <Supercheese> Hmm, I guess it would help if I knew NFO, but meh...
06:11:59 <Supercheese> Or hmm, maybe it's a bug with OTTD
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07:37:04 <Supercheese> Oh dang, the sound effect issue is related to having too many grfs, it seems
07:42:17 <Supercheese> Well, I have a modified version of OTTD, and when I load a game with a bunch of grfs, the ambient sound effects for my objects set only play in temperate, and they fail to play in tropic and arctic
07:42:36 <Supercheese> probable some strange bug related to having too many grfs loaded, methinks
07:43:07 <Supercheese> nothing to file a bug report over, it seems
07:43:37 <peter1138> sound effect ids are 16 bits, so unless you managed to get 65535 sounds, that's unlikely
07:43:51 <peter1138> enable grf debug messages and see if that says anything
07:46:01 <peter1138> you will get messages about each grf
07:46:44 <Supercheese> FIRS spamming the window with messages
07:46:47 <Supercheese> should remove that
07:47:19 <Supercheese> Jeez, lots of grfs are spamming messages
07:47:36 <Supercheese> scrolling the rest off -_-
07:47:47 <peter1138> yeah that firs message should be disabled
07:47:53 <peter1138> ottd being too verbose
07:48:01 <Supercheese> Long vehicles zillion messages...
07:48:15 <peter1138> wow someone uses long vehicles? :p
07:48:39 <Supercheese> You should know me by now, I use more than 64 grfs
07:50:00 <Supercheese> Because I like a lot of grfs
07:50:06 <peter1138> i use about a dozen tops :S
07:50:09 <Supercheese> and few people offer all-in-one versions
07:50:54 <Supercheese> As I mentioned earlier, that may be what's causing the error
07:51:59 <Supercheese> Object.SetEntitySpec: Too many objects allocated.
07:52:21 <Supercheese> see, it is the reason :P
07:52:55 <Supercheese> removing some grfs resolves it
07:53:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24919 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-01-17 07:53:17 UTC)
07:53:24 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Remove useless noisy grf debug messages.
07:53:40 <Supercheese> Yep, too many objects in too many grfs
07:54:00 <peter1138> ok so your sounds aren't working because the objects aren't being loaded
07:54:14 <Supercheese> well, the objects at the front are being loaded
07:54:16 <peter1138> unless your sounds are unrelated to objects
07:54:18 <Supercheese> but their sounds aren't working
07:54:32 <Supercheese> lemme double check some stuff
07:56:35 <Supercheese> Yeah, when too many objects try to load, the ones that do successfully load have problems with their sound effects
07:56:49 <Supercheese> probably even in trunk, lemme check that
07:59:00 <Supercheese> actually, that list is old, I've changed a few
07:59:43 <peter1138> i should never have implemented multiple vehicle set support :S
08:04:01 <Supercheese> Hmm, no trunk loads the sfx fine
08:04:11 <Supercheese> problem with the modified version, it seems
08:04:31 <Supercheese> good to know basically no one but me will have the problem, then :P
08:10:40 <Supercheese> OBJECT_CLASS_MAX = 32
08:10:56 <Supercheese> is that what determines...
08:11:13 <peter1138> number of classes, doesn't limit the number of objects
08:11:54 <peter1138> probably could be increased though
08:12:04 <peter1138> those 32 limits are usually due to dropdownlist sizes originally
08:12:13 <Supercheese> GUI changed since then, yes?
08:12:41 <peter1138> nah, i think dropdownlists were improved before objects
08:12:52 <peter1138> but the limit would've been carried over from station classes which was also 32
08:13:03 <Supercheese> didn't that limit increase though?
08:13:18 <peter1138> try changing it, see what happens :p
08:13:21 <Supercheese> STAT_CLASS_MAX = 256
08:13:45 <Supercheese> changed to OBJECT_CLASS_MAX = 256
08:18:11 <Supercheese> compiled, launching
08:19:00 <Supercheese> no change, same problem
08:19:37 <Supercheese> so total number, not class number
08:19:54 <Supercheese> where was that defined...
08:20:04 <peter1138> in the map probably
08:22:07 <peter1138> yeah, 256 objects max
08:22:13 <peter1138> cos it's stored in a byte
08:22:19 <peter1138> that includes the default objects
08:22:25 <peter1138> transmitters and whatnot
08:23:14 <Supercheese> ObjectType NUM_OBJECTS = 256
08:23:33 <Supercheese> increasing that possible/not?
08:25:57 <Supercheese> that shouldn't be the limiting factor
08:26:24 <Supercheese> the uint16 I mean
08:32:53 <Supercheese> Huh, raising that object limit removed the "too many objects loaded" message, but the sfx still don't play
08:33:06 <Supercheese> ah well, like I said, they work in trunk
08:35:07 <peter1138> pretty much none of those objects sets are on bananas. sad.
08:35:35 <Supercheese> yeah, though one is my own
08:35:46 <Supercheese> still developing it, planning for release and bananas
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08:36:13 <Supercheese> the rest... yeah, unfortunate
08:42:00 <peter1138> a good proportion of all the grfs on that list aren't
08:42:09 <Supercheese> Yeah, I'm just checking now
08:42:37 <Supercheese> Let's see, mb doesn't use Bananas, Simuscape-folk don't use Bananas...
08:43:11 <peter1138> simuscape-folk don't even want you to know what's there without signing up
08:43:22 <Supercheese> Quast65 could perhaps be convinced to Banana-up
08:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think signing up doesn't even suffice for most stuff
08:43:46 <Supercheese> signing up + post in the welcome thread
08:44:48 <Supercheese> "It won't be on Bananas (yet), there are still some things I would like to add before I might consider posting it there."
08:44:56 <Supercheese> so he at least is planning on it
08:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't want to go out there today... :/
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08:47:07 <Supercheese> Hmm, wallyweb doesn't banana, does he
08:49:25 <Supercheese> wait, why are VAST objects not on Bananas?
08:56:17 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: I have not seen zero.eight.
08:56:38 <Supercheese> "Last visited TT-forums: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:44 am"
08:56:42 <Supercheese> that might be why...
08:57:06 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: dnicholls was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 0 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 27 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <dnicholls> planetmaker: re VAST, better to talk about it in devzone channel?
08:57:33 <Supercheese> wait, there's a devzone channel?
08:58:30 <Supercheese> he doesn't mean #openttd.dev does he?
08:58:51 <Supercheese> #openttdcoop.devzone ah
08:58:59 <peter1138> devzone isn't an openttd thing
09:08:09 <Ammler> 1year back, there was no .dev
09:09:55 <Ammler> devzone is quite much a openttd thing, maybe not a openttd.org thing :-P
09:10:33 <Supercheese> Openttd* thing, just reg expression 'em all together
09:16:46 <Supercheese> Hmmmm, what is the NARS license
09:17:13 <Ammler> some private pikka license, like no license
09:18:33 <Ammler> you need to read it carefully and maybe ask pikka before you reuse parts of his work
09:28:22 <Supercheese> Apparently it's DanMacK I need to ask
09:28:57 <peter1138> maybe i should reset my nightly server
09:28:57 <Supercheese> I'm a tad too sleepy now to craft a proper private message, so I'll see if he responds to the thread
09:30:05 <Supercheese> Well, time to hit the hay
09:30:45 * Supercheese doubts the Romans used that idiom
09:31:00 <Supercheese> Ceterum, valete omnes
09:31:28 <peter1138> hurr, i modernised my fleet
09:32:17 <peter1138> making £5m per year instead of £1m
09:32:58 <peter1138> aw look, scuddles network is jammed again
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10:02:22 <peter1138> anyone up for making a realistic airport newgrf? :p
10:02:30 <peter1138> huge wide long runways!
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10:04:52 <Nat_aS> ugh. that would be horrible
10:05:05 <Nat_aS> because it would make all the other scale issues in OTTD more oubvious
10:05:22 <Nat_aS> that's my reaction to any sugestion involving realistic scales :p
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11:08:19 <Pikka> i'll make an unrealistic one, peter1138
11:13:58 <peter1138> soon to be passing AtN in value
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18:50:14 <TrueBrain> you can play with us
18:50:39 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
18:50:44 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: There was no plugin openttd.
18:50:46 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
18:51:06 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
18:51:10 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
18:51:13 <TrueBrain> now whos a good boy
18:51:37 <TrueBrain> any other services not online?
18:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> my grub is still broken :p
18:52:10 <TrueBrain> any othe ropenttd.org related services not online?
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18:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> group hug for our favourite sysadmin!
19:24:25 <peter1138> hmm, openttd -g loads the intro game these days :S
19:25:28 <SmatZ> peter1138: strange, it starts a new game for me
19:25:45 <peter1138> it starts a new game after loading the intro game
19:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hasn't it always done that?
19:27:08 <SmatZ> I think one has to first load the intro game so the newgrf scan can be shown
19:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, previously it probably also loaded the game, but hasn't shown anything
19:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "22 months without probation for using a megaphone"
19:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> democracy is going to hell these days :/
19:29:44 <peter1138> no, before the newgrf scan window, it didn't load the intro game with -g
19:30:28 <Maedhros> does downloading newgrfs within openttd work for anyone else at the moment? or is that still known to be down?
19:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Maedhros: talk to TrueBrain :)
19:33:28 <peter1138> hmm, where's my multimeter... just got a shock from a usb connector
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19:47:21 <__ln__> now they're saying the cleaning lady possibly accidentally caused the train to move, not with the intention of stealing it
19:50:10 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how do I hire a sysadmin? :P
19:50:16 <andythenorth> what makes sysadmins tick?
19:50:23 <andythenorth> developers I understand :P
19:51:58 <Terkhen> when you want to hire someone, offers of money usually work
19:52:00 <NGC3982> Carrots and kernel bugs.
19:55:12 <andythenorth> but in the UK, hiring is very hard
19:55:22 <andythenorth> we have many more open tech jobs than people to fill them
19:55:43 <andythenorth> assuming you want good people that is :P
19:57:26 <NGC3982> I thought it was the exact opposite?
19:57:47 <NGC3982> That last part might explain it.
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20:02:23 <bassals> excuse me andythenorth
20:02:38 <bassals> I feel as I am always late
20:02:55 <bassals> but would you accept an updated translation file for FIRS?
20:03:04 <Maedhros> heh, well i'm hardly TrueBrain, but i'm open to any offers of employment going...
20:03:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: make sure there are enough power sockets for both the servers and the coffee machine
20:03:33 <andythenorth> what are servers? o_O
20:03:59 <andythenorth> we're trying to make servers go away
20:04:28 <frosch123> good strategy, makes more room for coffee machines
20:04:42 <andythenorth> spending money owning servers is a waste
20:04:47 <andythenorth> that could be spent on good coffee
20:05:11 <andythenorth> 'use the cloud, drink more coffee'
20:05:13 <bassals> andythenorth: is this okay?
20:05:14 <andythenorth> sounds like devops borat :P
20:06:19 <andythenorth> FIRS needs a translations manager :P
20:06:26 * andythenorth has constant unicode 'oops'
20:06:43 <bassals> yes, I did not want to mess with the encodings (-_-)
20:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> now they're saying the cleaning lady possibly accidentally caused the train to move, not with the intention of stealing it <-- obviously that is way more likely, the "stealing" was invented by some overnight journalist and the whole worldwide press just copied that without checking any facts
20:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> andythenorth: make sure there are enough power sockets for both the servers and the coffee machine <-- vacuum cleaners are important also :p
20:12:16 <Pikka> andythenorth: pick me, I can drink coffee :D
20:12:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: are you in an australian timezone?
20:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> s/timezone/sleeping pattern/ :p
20:12:59 <andythenorth> Pikka: you have funny timezones
20:13:09 <andythenorth> setting servers up their for daylight savings is a fun game
20:13:13 <andythenorth> their / there /s
20:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> make servers UTC, handle timezones client-side :)
20:13:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: still has to be done right :P
20:14:06 <Pikka> we're used to everyone assuming we all live in NSW or Victoria
20:14:16 <andythenorth> yeah doesn't go so well in WA
20:14:31 <andythenorth> and not if you're running apps which have to do statutory compliance stff wrt time :P
20:15:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: which are you better at, sysadmin or coffee?
20:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate coffee. but i'd probably not make a good sysadmin either
20:16:27 <SpComb> andythenorth: you just switch over and recruit for a devops position, not a sysadmin
20:16:48 <andythenorth> SpComb: the downside of that is lots of people think devops is a silly buzzword
20:16:57 <andythenorth> which creates hiring problems
20:16:59 <Pikka> the latter would help with the former
20:18:53 <andythenorth> look what lego did here
20:18:58 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: lots of failed mathematicans become sysadmins
20:19:07 <frosch123> and even if they are bad, they are still average
20:19:11 <andythenorth> they introduced doors!
20:19:19 <andythenorth> I tell you, lego is going downhill
20:19:28 <andythenorth> kids of 1984 have no need of imagination
20:19:44 <andythenorth> lego have ruined themselves and are surely going out of business
20:20:00 <andythenorth> doors are a specialist part with limited reusability elsewhere
20:20:12 <Pikka> rubber tyres and minifigs
20:20:44 <Pikka> lego was better when it was all 2x4 blocks
20:26:07 <peter1138> sorry but it is all themed crap now
20:29:10 <Pikka> harry potter and the temple of dosh
20:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you guys had 5 colours? my eastern lego-knockoff had two colours: red and slightly faded red
20:30:58 <Pikka> andythenorth: I've read a couple of job ads in my time
20:31:32 <Pikka> you're definitely in the minority if you believe silly buzzwords are to be avoided when hiring
20:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (well not entirely true, the long 2x8 ones came in yellow, and later there were also white ones)
20:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and we had to carry the bricks uphill! both ways!!
20:34:40 <SpComb> andythenorth: exactly! And then you secretly hire the guys that think your devops thing is silly
20:35:30 <andythenorth> SpComb: everyone thinks devops is silly
20:36:59 <Pikka> seems to be a lot of potentially not sucking going on in your workplace
20:38:46 <andythenorth> I got bored of writing job ad titles :P
20:38:57 <andythenorth> these ones get tweeeetered
20:39:10 <andythenorth> Wanted: Writer of Job Ad Titles
20:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are consulting firms that you can throw money at to do that :p
20:42:18 <andythenorth> is TaI done yet? :P
20:42:42 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
20:44:11 <Pikka> TaI is not done yet, no
20:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> www.istaidoneyet.com?
20:44:50 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
20:44:59 <Pikka> I'm supposedly working on money making stuff instead :)
20:46:14 <andythenorth> TaI for €3 per download? :P
20:46:43 <Pikka> haven't we had this conversation? :p
20:47:08 * andythenorth is avoiding doing a tax return, but has no new topics :P
20:47:12 <Pikka> iono, maybe I should put it on kickstarter or something
20:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not tax avoidance if it's less than 400€ a month
20:48:26 <andythenorth> it's not tax avoidance if you actuall do the form and pay up :P
20:48:43 <andythenorth> 995k downloads of 'grfs wot andy has worked on'
20:49:11 <andythenorth> what shall we say is in v2.0?
20:49:17 <andythenorth> nope, did that already :P
20:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: now comes a musicmafia-style calculation that if you sue every downloader for 800€ compensation, the downloads are worth 800.000€? :p
20:50:36 <andythenorth> might be a hard case to sustain ;)
20:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if you repeat it often enough, people start to believe you
20:55:06 <Pikka> now, sprechen of coffee...
20:55:13 <peter1138> dbsetxl 0.9? oh you jester
20:55:37 <andythenorth> bassals: I added that update
20:55:51 <Rubidium> these new trains aren't that reliable yet...
20:56:02 <Rubidium> they don't reliably work (or reliably fail)
20:56:27 <Rubidium> e.g. today only 17 of the 20 trains were broken/not in service
20:57:18 <Rubidium> also interesting that the average delay of a train can be more than 1 hour when it's an hourly service
20:58:24 <peter1138> how does one go about using a goalscript on a dedicated server?
21:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> like everything else: prepare game on client, upload to server...
21:02:29 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:04:39 * andythenorth wants a 'make my game' feature
21:04:46 <andythenorth> setting up games is really really really boring
21:05:11 <Supercheese> Presuming you have a grf list you like anyway
21:06:01 <andythenorth> all those crappy parameters and scuh
21:06:16 <Supercheese> Set parameters once, save config
21:06:38 <Supercheese> although hmm, do parameter setting reset when the grf updates
21:06:49 <andythenorth> my grf list changes a lot
21:06:55 <andythenorth> for fairly obvious reasons :P
21:06:56 <peter1138> presets need to take account of updates
21:06:58 <Supercheese> Yeah, if you have to remove/readd to the list
21:07:08 <Supercheese> that would destroy parameter choices
21:07:17 <peter1138> but presets are done by filename, not grfid/hash
21:07:33 * Supercheese requests grfid rather than filename
21:07:47 <Supercheese> that would help preserve parameter choices
21:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> parameters could change inbetween updates...
21:13:10 <peter1138> with action 14 you could probably check they're valid
21:13:28 <peter1138> but removing then adding the grf also changes the parameters
21:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what annoys me most is that the "compatible version" is currently totally useless, because for "normal" user _any_ change is forbidden, and for "developers", the check is practically ignored
21:16:12 <Supercheese> non-developer users can't load a savegame if the exact grfs aren't found, but a compatible grf is?
21:16:27 <Supercheese> compatible grfs are*
21:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea, but "missing grf" is a rare case anyway
21:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> more common is that you have both grfs, and want to use the newer one
21:17:18 <Supercheese> Haha, not with Simuscape-folk, they have caused many such cases
21:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i've chosen to totally ignore simuscape
21:17:42 <Supercheese> Although it's more "can't join server with old version grf"
21:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> joining servers is a totally different case
21:18:02 <peter1138> simuscape clearly don't want people to use with grfs
21:18:17 <peter1138> not that sac ever released anything
21:18:24 <Supercheese> They pick a Creative Commons license and say "don't upload this anywhere else"
21:18:29 <Supercheese> is that... even legal?
21:19:22 <Rubidium> Supercheese: first amendment?
21:19:37 <Supercheese> enforceable*, not legal
21:20:03 <Supercheese> (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0)
21:20:05 <Rubidium> depends on the actuall CC license
21:20:30 <Supercheese> "You are free: to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work "
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21:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> of course it's not enforceable
21:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but if nobody does it, there's nothing to enforce
21:21:28 <peter1138> if they say you can't share
21:21:32 <Supercheese> They're going for a "gentlemen's agreement" I guess
21:21:35 <peter1138> then it's not cc by-nc-nd
21:21:44 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
21:21:49 <peter1138> therefore none of the rest of the license applies
21:22:10 <peter1138> therefore default copyright
21:22:12 <Supercheese> "Please don't upload anywhere else, even though the license allows you to do so" more or less
21:22:15 <peter1138> therefore you can't have it
21:22:37 <Supercheese> Probably with an implicit "if people do start uploading this elsewhere, we'll never release any more grfs" :S
21:22:39 <peter1138> "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder."
21:22:47 <peter1138> maybe they've misinterpreted that?
21:23:45 <Pikka> licence agreements are fun :D
21:24:10 <Rubidium> ... especially custom ones
21:24:22 <peter1138> pikka's license is fine
21:24:24 <bassals> thanks andythenorth :-)
21:24:37 <Rubidium> and the one discussed here is a custom one (due to the extra clause)
21:24:38 <Supercheese> Pikka uses Bananas, all's good
21:24:43 <andythenorth> bassals: it hasn't compiled on the compile farm yet :P
21:25:27 <peter1138> is the extra clause added to a local copy of the license?
21:26:29 <peter1138> of course, i've broken pikka's license by disassembling ukrs2, but never mind :p
21:26:44 <andythenorth> he should sue you
21:26:54 <peter1138> he lost a lot of money when i did that
21:26:59 <Pikka> peter: I don't think anyone is ever going to sue over a grf
21:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: german copyright says any terms that forbid decompiling/etc. are void
21:27:02 <andythenorth> that would provide him with the money to shirk work
21:27:14 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i modified it
21:27:19 <andythenorth> the easy life awaits
21:27:23 <andythenorth> see, he's admitted it
21:27:27 <andythenorth> bang to rights eh
21:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that's included in that
21:27:41 <Pikka> so a legal interpretation of sac or whoever's licence is immaterial
21:27:53 <peter1138> neither pikka nor i am german
21:28:00 <Supercheese> Hmm, the Simuscape grf in question isn't bundled with a license
21:28:07 <Supercheese> just raw grf download
21:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: there may be similar laws in your jurisdiction :)
21:28:28 <Pikka> geblungen mitteraus corblimey
21:28:29 <bassals> who is wiling to testify agains peter1138 ?
21:29:11 <peter1138> mind you, some of those pixels look a bit like ttd original pixels
21:29:37 <peter1138> yup, same palette and everything
21:29:52 <peter1138> hmm, can you copyright a palette? heh
21:30:15 <Pikka> if sac says "don't distribute this" and then bundles it with a ccby licence, you probably shouldn't distribute it. she's made her position clear
21:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: a german court recently ruled that few measures of sampled music may already constitute a copyright violation, so certainly few pixels work as well :p
21:30:34 <Pikka> some have noted the similarities, peter :)
21:32:38 <Pikka> does my licence say you can't dissassemble, anyway? :)
21:32:45 <peter1138> no, just not modify
21:33:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: slip me £20, and I'll say whatever you want against him
21:33:29 <Pikka> it probably shouldn't say that
21:33:42 <andythenorth> hmm, wikipedia tells me that we used to impale people often
21:33:46 <andythenorth> and not just in Doom sprites
21:34:24 <andythenorth> I wouldn't read the page about it
21:34:50 <Pikka> everyone's got to have a hobby I suppose
21:35:15 <peter1138> hmm, passenger stations
21:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, why is it "human"->"humans" but not "man"->"mans"?
21:35:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it is
21:36:05 <Supercheese> and if you're asking about plurals being inconsistent... you'll be asking about nearly every English plural ever
21:36:09 <peter1138> oh, no content server. hmm.
21:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> *this reply has been censored by brain*
21:36:17 <andythenorth> it has gone away
21:37:29 <Pikka> also, eddi: cease that blood libel, naughty german. :)
21:38:03 <peter1138> my aim is to draw some bloody awesome stations
21:38:08 <peter1138> code them bloody awesomely
21:38:18 <peter1138> then release it with a BSD license
21:38:22 <andythenorth> he codes, he draws, he scores
21:38:39 <peter1138> first, learn to draw... DAMN
21:39:01 <peter1138> hmm, extra zoom, that would be fun
21:39:11 <frosch123> BSD sound like bloody station drawings
21:39:21 <peter1138> frosch123, you are awesome
21:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: first, implement station support in nmlc :p
21:39:40 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i know nothing about nmlc
21:39:59 <peter1138> what i've seen on nml is an obfuscating layer
21:40:04 <frosch123> sorry, missed the point probably :)
21:41:51 <andythenorth> peter1138: obfuscating layer with a slower compiler
21:41:55 <andythenorth> but eh, I prefer it :P
21:43:55 <Supercheese> I still can't really read NFO
21:44:31 <xQR> that's a long openttd.org downtime, you're migrating or something?
21:44:35 <Supercheese> I'd probably have learned it if NML didn't exist
21:45:44 <Supercheese> servers still on holiday?
21:46:10 <xQR> worst thing is that the internal server browser in multiplayer is affected too this time
21:46:12 <Supercheese> have to get their work visas in order :P
21:46:56 <xQR> it was down from 11:30 to 16:00, then up until 20:40 and since then is down again (times in UTC)
21:47:12 <xQR> so it rather seems to be several trips to different places :P
21:55:00 <Eddi|zuHause> xQR: no migrating, just server hiccups, i believe.
21:56:02 <Eddi|zuHause> who you gonna call? TrueBrain!
21:56:52 <xQR> if i ever have a 4 hours long hiccup bring me to a doctor please
22:00:19 <peter1138> hmm, how do we deal with the extra 3 pixels of 4x zoom?
22:04:35 <frosch123> 1) make it compatible with non-zoom sprites and make it look weird forever
22:04:52 <frosch123> 2) make it incompatible with non-zoom sprites and make it look fine with other zoom sprites
22:04:57 <frosch123> i prefer the second :)
22:05:20 <peter1138> i know there was a big argument against it mind you
22:05:23 <frosch123> who cares about the transition between non-zoom and zoom if the non-zoom are blocky
22:05:51 <peter1138> although i notice that zbase doesn't get its zoomed out sizes right
22:06:06 <peter1138> or maybe the in-game scaling does that and gets it awkward
22:07:31 <andythenorth> herm. not snowing here
22:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> how dare it not listen to the weather forecast!!
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22:48:32 <Supercheese> Hmm, trying to find the thread about it Pikka
22:50:36 <TrueBrain> ugh, freaking MySQL Archive tables
22:52:20 *** Zeknurn` has joined #openttd
22:52:49 <Supercheese> Jeez, where was that thread :S
22:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood what that discussion was actually about
22:56:09 <Supercheese> "jagged edges" mostly
22:56:47 <TrueBrain> our wiki database is 396 MiB ....
23:06:44 <peter1138> Pikka, the magic 3 pixels!
23:07:27 <peter1138> Pikka, 64 x 31 -> 256 x 124
23:07:39 <peter1138> Pikka, but the native 4x tile size is 256 x 127
23:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause> why is it 31 in the first place?
23:08:25 <Supercheese> thought it was 32...
23:09:33 <peter1138> so the tiles interlock
23:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> between the tile (X,Y) and (X+1,Y+1) there are 32 pixels
23:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the whole 16 steps per tile deal wouldn't work
23:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> why are the sprites 1 pixel smaller?
23:17:18 <peter1138> because the west and east corners are only 1 pixel high
23:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't get it...
23:28:00 <peter1138> if you use the highlight tool on a tile, you can see the outline of it
23:28:27 <peter1138> if you move around, you'll see tiles next to each other horizontally touch
23:28:44 <peter1138> but there's a gap of 1 pixel for tiles vertically
23:29:27 <peter1138> easier to see with 4x, heh
23:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so the pixels are on the wrong sprite, and should be moved?
23:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or actually, they should be duplicated?
23:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (otherwise you just reverse the problem to horizontal instead of vertical)
23:30:52 <peter1138> there is no problem
23:30:56 <peter1138> at least, not within a tile size
23:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so, the problem is??
23:32:02 <peter1138> how 4x normal graphics is 256x124
23:32:07 <peter1138> but 4x native graphics are 256x127
23:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so an upscaled sprite will overlap a native sprite?
23:33:57 <peter1138> who came up with this shit eh? :S
23:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so... when only using upscaled sprites, everything is fine, when only using native sprites, everything is fine, when using mixed sprites, everything is fine, just some pixels on the border are weird?
23:36:12 <peter1138> well, either overlapping or worse... missing
23:36:29 <peter1138> it's only pixels :)
23:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> how can they be missing if the "native" sprites are "bigger"?
23:37:03 <Supercheese> "jagged edges" again
23:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess other than actually seeing it, i won't get it...
23:37:40 <Supercheese> attachment to illustrate
23:37:49 <peter1138> but i'm ignoring that, it's just the the 3 extra pixels amuse me, cos i'm easily amused
23:38:27 <peter1138> (it's because on the blocky version the pixels come from the sides instead of the extra 3 rows)
23:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "solution": just put the grid lines in these pixels, then it doesn't matter whether they overlap
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