IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-16
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08:28:24 <peter1138> Core0 Temp: +12.0°C
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08:43:07 <Celestar> You should see a doc, peter1138
08:43:51 <peter1138> oh, might not be available out of the uk
08:44:03 <Supercheese> hmm, does DorpsGek do temperature conversions?
08:44:17 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
08:44:56 <Supercheese> I don't have that forumla memorized @_@
08:46:27 <Supercheese> I usually use my hand calculator's builtin conversion, or Google if at a computer
08:46:46 <Celestar> I just guestimate :P
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08:47:23 <Supercheese> I use Celsius so little I can't really estimate well, other than 0° 37° and 100° C points, anyway
08:47:39 <peter1138> you use celsius really? :p
08:48:02 <Supercheese> hence why I like it converted :P
08:48:04 <peter1138> oh i didn't read the rest, lol
08:48:15 <peter1138> i use celsius so ...
08:48:38 <Supercheese> I wish my country used Celsius, but I can't change things...
08:48:54 <kamnet> Technically, we do use celsius.
08:49:11 <Celestar> it's a stupid scale.
08:49:15 <Celestar> almost as bad as Fahrenheit
08:50:23 <Supercheese> You prefer which scale then?
08:50:25 <peter1138> ok, my cpu temp is 285K
08:50:26 <kamnet> Let's not turn this into a heated debate, gentlemen!
08:51:53 <Celestar> I had a friend who wrote a PhD thesis in physics
08:52:09 <Celestar> where he wrote "In this work, I shall use the god given units"
08:52:28 <Celestar> c = 1, hbar = 1, kb = 1, G = 1
08:59:39 <kamnet> We're having some epic heavy equipment failures around the globe todday
09:13:36 <Celestar> Berlin is really run by a bunch of complete and utter idiots.
09:14:44 <Celestar> it can't be THAT difficult to remodel an existing airport ...
09:15:51 <Celestar> Move one runway. Build terminal.
09:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: those are the funniest kind of physicists... "i just do this formula and then add c's and h's until the unit fits"
09:17:26 <Celestar> If Chicago manages to build four runways, remove three and extend two, while handling 3000 arrivals and departures a day. one might think that Berlin manages to move one runway while doing about 100 arrivals and departures a day.
09:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: at least they resolved the NSU crisis, and the S-Bahn crisis, and ... :p
09:19:07 <Celestar> Berlin doesn't manage to chop a tree without damaging all building in the vincinity during the process, I assume :P
09:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "Wir können alles – außer Flughafen (und S-Bahn) (und A100) (und freundlich) (und richtiges Abitur)"
09:20:20 <Celestar> Wasn't their motto "poor and sexy"?
09:20:29 <Celestar> I think it should be "poor and incompetent"
09:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it's the same everywhere whenever politicians are involved
09:21:39 <Celestar> might be concentration of politicians in Berlin ...
09:22:22 <Celestar> Stuttgart 21 remains to be seen.
09:22:31 <Celestar> Although it the wrong solution to the problem.
09:22:47 <Celestar> Build an ICE station outside the city, like every other country does.
09:23:05 <Celestar> same in Frankfurt, Köln, Mannheim, etc.
09:23:21 <Celestar> actually every city where the high-speed trains do not begin or end.
09:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> upcoming major catastrophes: Munich 2nd tunnel, Fehmarnbelt-Bridge, ...
09:23:43 <Celestar> Munich 3rd runway ...
09:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i still wonder whether they'll actually manage to open the Citytunel Leipzig this year :)
09:24:54 <Celestar> Digging a tunnel seems to give Germans a big headache.
09:25:02 <Celestar> You know, they might ask the Swiss ....
09:25:26 <Celestar> whose Gotthard Base Tunnel is nearly 2 years AHEAD of schedule...
09:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> last i heard the tunnel itself is already finished, they're only building the connections to the network now. but they're running out of time for the trains
09:26:17 <Celestar> in 1891, Tsar Alexander II. decided that it would be helpful to build a railway through russia.
09:26:35 <Celestar> over rivers several km wide
09:26:47 <Celestar> it took them 25 years.
09:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i always wondered who the hell came up with that stupid idea :p
09:27:25 <Celestar> in 1994, Germany started building a railway line from Bamberg to Erfurt.
09:27:37 <Celestar> which is of similar distance (100km vs 9300km)
09:27:46 <Celestar> and it will take 21 years.
09:28:06 <__ln__> i've read electrifying the siberian railway took ~70 years
09:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: they're definitely not running 300km/h on the transsibirian railway :p
09:28:37 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: that's mainly a question of curve radius...
09:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: about the same time as electrifying Munich-Berlin
09:29:02 <Celestar> Munich-Berlin today is 6 hours by train.
09:29:08 <Celestar> Madrid-Barcelona is 2:30
09:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: but they don't have a Coburg that also wants a stop :p
09:30:17 <peter1138> apparently Munich-Berlin is under 6 hours by car...
09:30:25 <Celestar> peter1138: I've done it in 3:50
09:30:54 <Celestar> ok that was the middle of the night.
09:31:12 <Celestar> but going normally (130-140km/h) takes about 5 hours.
09:31:57 <Celestar> But, German trains have an average of 20% reserves in their schedules. That's why they have those awesome on-time statistics.
09:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but they have the most awesomest train approval team, that's why everyone wants to spend so much time with them :p
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10:41:02 <Rubidium> Celestar: they already managed moving one runway in Berlin, after all... the current runway of SXF was moved a few hundred meters to make way for a highway ;)
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11:20:32 <Flygon_> Celestar: Go 140km/h in a car in Australia, lose your license :(
11:20:48 <Flygon_> Speed limit in Victoria is flat out 110km/h, at best...
11:21:01 <Flygon_> Most cars here can cruise safely @ 160km/h >_>
11:21:05 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
11:21:28 <Flygon> And that's why peeps think trains that cap @ 177km/h are bullet trains :p
11:21:29 <__ln__> your speed limits are in km/h?
11:21:52 <Flygon> 70mph limit for you Americans
11:22:02 <__ln__> i'm definitely not american
11:22:05 <Flygon> We're basically Europe
11:22:17 <__ln__> no you aren't, DVD region code 4.
11:22:21 <Flygon> Except we calculate height in imperial measurements
11:22:31 <Flygon> Welcome to Australia :p
11:22:57 <peter1138> altitude is important
11:23:04 <peter1138> you wouldn't want to go flying into cranes or anything
11:23:49 <__ln__> Flygon: but you drive on the left?
11:24:19 <__ln__> there goes your europeanity
11:25:07 <Flygon> We're a hybrid of murrica, pop island, and.... some sort of insulting-but-lighthearted word for Europe :p
11:25:25 <Flygon> God, I am so derp tonight
11:25:43 <Flygon> Though, we have lost one other aspect of Europe...
11:25:47 <Flygon> All trains are Diesel @_@
11:31:02 * peter1138 is european, drives on the left, and uses miles :p
11:33:08 <Celestar> Flygon: well ... 110km/h is slow.
11:33:24 <Flygon> 110km/h even feels slow :(
11:33:37 <Flygon> My Magna didn't even feel like it was working hard @ 140km/h...
11:33:42 * Flygon was on a backroad >_> <_<
11:33:58 <Celestar> 200km/h cruise is fun :P
11:34:04 <Celestar> everything above gets a little stressy
11:34:09 <Flygon> ...then again, this's the same car whom's transmission decided 110km/h @ 2nd gear was a good idea
11:34:20 <Flygon> It was climing a hill on a freeway >_>
11:37:33 <__ln__> that white thing on the ground is called s-n-o-w
11:38:05 <peter1138> sunbleached sand :D
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11:38:39 <Flygon> __ln__: Yes, like that one
11:38:43 <Flygon> And while we're on snowtrain pics
11:39:54 <Flygon> Diesel ICE can go faster than 200, can't it?
11:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i went to Karlsruhe recently (via A71/Thüringer Wald) in snowy/foggy weather... rarely got up to 130km/h... took about 5:30h (google maps says it can be done in ~5h)
11:40:20 <__ln__> 200 km/h says wikipedia, if it's to be trusted
11:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> can probably save like 20 minutes is actually finished between Sangerhausen and Sömmerda
11:40:56 <Flygon> May as well just order more VLocity and upgrade some tracks to 200km/h >_>
11:41:54 <Flygon> Looks like ICE TD is NOT a cheap solution to Australia's fast train problem
11:42:04 <Flygon> Regauging VLocity to 1435mm is :P
11:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: Flygon any place that gets rails beyond 200km/h is electrified, so not much point for the ICE TD
11:42:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: allegedly, even a fully occupied ICE TD didn't run profitable
11:42:56 <Flygon> Except the VLocity isn't a tilt train... this made for fun when it went OSpeed on late running on wooden sleepered tight turn tracks @ 145km/h... cue centrifugal force
11:43:16 <Flygon> There's a such thing as a profitable passenger train?
11:43:27 <Flygon> Your trains have LCD screens?
11:44:37 <Flygon> Pretend I didn't say the F word
11:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: in germany, it's apparently expected that long-distance trains run profitable without government support, only local trains are supposed to get government funding
11:44:44 <Flygon> Gaaah, Mister Flygon got carried away >_<"
11:45:02 <Flygon> Eddi: Ah... trains here are run with the assumption of a profit loss
11:45:19 <Flygon> Only profitable train companies are tourist railways
11:45:40 <Flygon> Interestingly, Govt owned railways used to hire tourist railway locomotives because it looked cool :p
11:46:57 <Flygon> Also, the R-class steam locomotives they hired had more horsepower than much of their passenger Diesel fleet >_>
11:47:09 <Flygon> Still, this explains why German trains are SO expensive
11:47:31 <Flygon> If tickets here were costed to reflect profitable running... well, everyone would drive, and you'd get freeway gridlock
11:47:54 <Flygon> It's cheaper to just offer a 250km ticket for just $20-$28 dollars
11:48:15 <Celestar> Flygon: the ICE-TD goes 200km/h
11:48:49 <Flygon> Celestar: I really expected faster...
11:49:06 <Celestar> it has a measly 1700kW ...
11:49:18 <Flygon> I really expected more powerful
11:49:27 <Flygon> Then again, from what I gather, it used a locomotive...
11:49:39 <Flygon> Here, the VLocity trains are DMU's, 750hp per carriage
11:50:01 <Flygon> So, typical express commuter train becomes 7 carriages (9 in future)...
11:50:37 <Flygon> 5250 horsepower... there you go, a passenger DMU and a long freight locomotive :p
11:50:58 <Celestar> The ICE-TD has 4 cars, 1700kW. The ICE-T 5 car config has 3000kW, ICE-T 7 cars 4000kW and ICE 3 8 cars 8000kW
11:51:54 <Celestar> That's sustained output, not peak or hourly output.
11:52:03 <Flygon> Ah, so the ICE Diesels are DMU's?
11:52:26 <Celestar> ICE1 has 9600kW, usually with 14 cars.
11:52:40 <peter1138> you could use a Class 43!
11:52:45 <peter1138> oh wait, you already have them
11:52:46 <Celestar> 2’Bo’+Bo’2’+2’Bo’+Bo’2’
11:53:17 <peter1138> top speed 240km/h ;p
11:53:30 <Flygon> The XPT capped @ 193km/h here
11:53:40 <Flygon> Partially due to lower gearing
11:53:49 <peter1138> no such thing as a BR125
11:53:51 <Celestar> so the certitied speeds are ICE-TD: 200km/h, ICE-T 230km/h, ICE1/2 280km/h, ICE3 330km/h
11:54:03 <peter1138> Flygon, reduced power as well
11:54:08 <Flygon> British Rail Intercity 125
11:54:18 <Flygon> The power is RATED lower
11:54:33 <Flygon> Doesn't mean it's actually weaker
11:54:49 <Celestar> not sure how fast the ICE3 can go. Velaro E can do about 420km/h with good conditions :P
11:55:05 <Flygon> If geared correctly, I'd bet money the XPT could break 200km/h on VLocity tracks :3
11:55:28 <Flygon> Though, acceleration is a worry...
11:55:44 <Flygon> The best line for it (Geelong) is also one of the shortest...
11:55:46 <Celestar> If you want acceleration you want a Shinkansen N900-I
11:55:54 <Flygon> I'm talking about the XPT
11:56:00 <Celestar> takes less than 3 minutes to 300km/h
11:56:03 <Flygon> Being regeared to Class 43 gearing
11:56:25 <peter1138> old and crap now anyway
11:57:04 <Flygon> Let's see how 30 years treated it then
11:57:23 <Flygon> See if it can break it's old record on actual HST-enough tracks :3
11:57:41 <Celestar> How much high-speed track is there in the UK apart from HS1?
11:57:50 <peter1138> ^ inappropriate music time
11:57:52 <Celestar> with high-speed meaning > 125mph ...
11:58:23 <peter1138> if you include 125mph itself, then then ECML
11:58:48 <Celestar> In Germany there's like a measly 700km or so
11:59:08 <Celestar> oh .. maybe 1000km if you include the 230km/h stuff
12:00:41 <peter1138> HS2 would be up to 400km/h apparently
12:00:48 <peter1138> but it's only 192km
12:00:55 <Flygon> Celestar: I meant in Australia
12:01:39 <Flygon> We have a lot of TRACK good for 200km/h
12:01:43 <Flygon> Shame about the alignment :p
12:02:03 <Celestar> peter1138: yah that's includes 200km/h crap :P
12:02:12 <peter1138> yeah filter by colour :p
12:02:34 <peter1138> looks like france is winning
12:02:43 <Celestar> SPain is catching up.
12:03:11 <peter1138> russia has a nice stretch :p
12:03:17 <Celestar> Time for Germany to uprate the 280km/h to 300km/h
12:03:17 <Flygon> If there was a map of Australia.... of man, that'd be depressing
12:03:23 <Celestar> since they are built for 300km/h anyway.
12:03:40 <Celestar> plus the map is plain wrong.
12:04:07 <Celestar> Hannover-Würzburg is 280km/h, except (some?) Tunnels so it should be red, as should be Mannheim-Stuttgart.
12:04:23 <Flygon> Perhaps the map goes for average speed?
12:04:38 <Celestar> then everything would be grey :P
12:04:50 <Flygon> Or in Australia's case
12:04:58 <Flygon> Blacker than the depths of hell
12:05:13 <Celestar> Australia has more than ... 2 train lines?
12:06:19 <Flygon> We have a crapload of suburban lines, and some nice country trunklines
12:06:29 <Celestar> I would once very much like to cross the US by train :)
12:08:07 <Celestar> yah I know about The Ghan and Indian Pacific
12:08:18 <Celestar> hence I was thinking two :P
12:09:56 <Flygon> The map is missing a lot of lines though, in Victoria
12:10:04 <Flygon> Victoria has a relatively dense network
12:10:34 <Flygon> Germany has one hell of a train fetish
12:10:36 <Celestar> I think this map includes every friggen rail in GErmany.
12:10:44 <Celestar> well we shut down about 50% of the network :P
12:11:40 <Flygon> A few lines got reopened
12:11:41 <Celestar> Flygon: there are much much much more people in Germany than in Australia :P
12:12:40 <Flygon> Yes, but Victoria is the size of Polan... actually
12:15:14 <Flygon> Celestar: Thing is, if you looked at the parts of Australia that're actually inhabited
12:15:27 <Flygon> The mass of land/railway lines suddenly skyrockets
12:16:23 <Celestar> well that kind of makes sense :P
12:17:19 <Flygon> I imagine it looks a lot more like Germany suddenly :p
12:23:22 <Flygon> Your rail infrastructure is better and well maintained :p
12:23:30 <Flygon> Ours is literally buckling, barring RFR lines
12:23:42 <Celestar> or rail infrastructure is WHAT?
12:24:06 <Celestar> The main line from Munich to Berlin is currently shut down on a length of about 20 km.
12:24:31 <Celestar> because the condition of the rails does not allow safe operation at 40km/h(!!!!!)
12:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> Time for Germany to uprate the 280km/h to 300km/h <-- wasn't it announced that new trains from now on will only be purchased for 249km/h?
12:25:15 <Flygon> And how soon is that being repaired?
12:25:17 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the ICx? yeah.
12:25:20 <Flygon> And how long has it been out?
12:25:25 <Celestar> Flygon: in total, about 12 months.
12:25:36 <Celestar> It was a test of metal sleepers
12:25:39 <Flygon> Here, 40km restrictions are normal
12:25:40 <Celestar> which are now rust sleepers.
12:26:00 <Flygon> But it's normally just freight lines and suburban lines in slow areas anyway
12:26:02 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well they already downrated the 330km/h lines to 300km/h.
12:26:13 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: why not go further...
12:26:20 <Flygon> Any not use Stainless Steel?
12:26:30 <Flygon> Or sleeperless tracks?
12:26:43 <Celestar> new high-speed rails are sleeperless.
12:26:44 <Flygon> It's a wallbangingly baffling decision
12:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: well, increasing top speed has very little benefits if you don't at the same time optimise the stations
12:27:13 <__ln__> "the sleeper has awaken!"
12:27:35 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not taking about increasing.
12:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> meaning leave out some stations (lots of political influence there) and adding capacities
12:27:40 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: we need an ITF.
12:27:46 <Flygon> Either way, sleepers here are mostly wooden, with fast train lines being concrete
12:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: which they are already trying to incrementally achieve for 30 years?
12:28:20 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I have map. Getting the ICE network into an ITF is suprisingly easy in Germany. It would just need 2-3 new HSRs and a bunch of relatively local modifications.
12:28:41 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: they aren't. ICE1 and the first HSRs were planned and made for 300km.h
12:28:46 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: today, we have .. 300km/h
12:29:02 <Flygon> And braking on faster speeds is terrible
12:29:09 <Flygon> Unless you use Maglev, anyway
12:29:23 <Celestar> I prefer to think "The schedule dictates the speed" not the other way round.
12:29:28 <__ln__> both maglev projects were cancelled in germany.
12:29:49 <Celestar> crucial point in Germany would be 28 minutes Stuttgart-Mannheim and 43 minutes Frankfurt/Airport-Cologne.
12:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i think there were three, actually
12:29:57 <Celestar> both is easily achievable with 300km/h
12:30:22 <Flygon> Transrapid tried to get a Maglev proposal built here
12:30:24 <Celestar> there is zero point to be faster.
12:30:38 <Flygon> But Govt scrapped it and went for the Regional Rail Link anyway
12:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Berlin-Hamburg, Munich-Airport and Rhein/Rhur
12:30:55 <__ln__> ah, didn't know about Rhein/Ruhr
12:31:08 <Celestar> 330km/h would make sense if you got Hamburg-Berlin to sub-60 minutes. But that's really the least important part. it's already around 90minutes for 300km/h.
12:31:09 <Flygon> Ironically, the link fails to achieve over 80km/h inside suburban areas anyway due to signalling issues
12:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was cancelled in early development status, though
12:31:29 <Flygon> One would reckon a train that can break 200km/h would have in-cab signalling...
12:31:43 <Celestar> well the track needs to be equipped.
12:31:52 <__ln__> actually, Rhine/Ruhr since this channel is english only
12:32:27 <Celestar> I'll find that map once.
12:32:53 <Flygon> Speed upgrades are silly if stations are too densely packed
12:32:58 <Celestar> What Germany needs is a HSR Nuremburg-Frankfurt, Ulm-Augsburg and direct Hannover-Hamburg.
12:33:07 <Flygon> May as well just regear lower and accelerate faster :p
12:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: what does that map say about Berlin-Munich's optimal speed and intermediate stops?
12:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming the "Thüringer Wald U-Bahn" actually gets finished, and Erfurt becomes switchover point between some lines)
12:36:41 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: 30 minutes Munich Ingolstadt (possible with minor upgrades), 30 minutes Ingolstadt Nuremburg (possible today), 60 minutes Nuremburg Erfurt (possible after construction is complete), 30 minutes Erfurt Halle (possible in 2015), 60 minute Halle-Berlin (possible after broken track is repaired). Total: 3:30.
12:37:07 <Celestar> or 45 minutes Erfurt Leipzig, 75 minute Leipzig-Berlin, with a total of 4:00 then.
12:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "Broken track" is a slight understatement :p
12:37:53 <Celestar> that's with stops in IN, N, ER, HAL.
12:38:08 <Celestar> can slot in a sprinter that does Munich-Nuremburg-Berlin.
12:38:17 <Celestar> which then takes about 3:10.
12:38:28 <Celestar> which is a nice speed for around 620km.
12:38:30 <Flygon> Sprinter... gah, too many trains are called Sprinter, hahaha
12:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: not a train here, but a travel mode (basically non-stop over large distances)
12:39:07 <Celestar> and it's not that difficult.
12:39:27 <Flygon> Sprinters here are basically Diesel suburban trains that stop every stop
12:39:37 <Flygon> They accelerate very very fast
12:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there are trains like that here as well
12:39:49 <Celestar> but we currently plan for 62 minutes Munich-Nurenburg, 66 Minutes Nuremburg Erfurt and 65 minute Halle Berlin. Which means the schedule goes totally bust.
12:40:05 <Flygon> Interestingly, the VLocity trains are designed to operate in MU with them
12:40:13 <Celestar> There is a legal limit to longitudonal acceleration in trains in germany.
12:40:31 <Celestar> it's either 1m/s/s or 1.2m/s/s, can't remember.
12:40:36 <Flygon> (Sprinters can ospeed to 145km/h, VLocity tend to cruise @ 140-160km/h anyway... who knows when you get a VLocity shortage?)
12:41:05 <Celestar> most local trains acheive that acceleration at low speeds.
12:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: train intercompatibility is totally underdeveloped in germany
12:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: like operate a 440 in combination with a 442 :p
12:42:12 <Celestar> until you actually want to move the vehicle :P
12:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or even an ICE-T with an ICE2 or somesuch
12:42:26 <Celestar> there 440 aren't bad vehicles.
12:42:31 <Celestar> ICE3 and ICE-T works.
12:42:38 <Celestar> ICE3 and ICE3M works
12:42:48 <Celestar> ICE3 and ICE3 (new) fails
12:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never actually been in one
12:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> if they ever get delivered :p
12:43:45 <Celestar> they feel like a rock.
12:44:01 <Flygon> Eddi: Ahh... here, well
12:44:19 <Flygon> Everything's basically compatible with everything, only hairy nosed points are MU trains
12:44:48 <Flygon> And even then, coupling and moving is possible, just actual automated MU control is hard... locomotives can hook up together easier than furries in a furcon, though
12:45:40 <Flygon> A dusty worn out 1950s T-class locomotive being coupled to a brand new NR-class locomotive can look amusing... but it works :D
12:45:45 <Celestar> "Local" Train with 200km/h
12:45:50 <NGC3982> I have never played so long on a server like this
12:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: sure, that was the case in germany 20 years ago as well... but nowadays 80% of passenger trains are MUs, of different producers and times
12:46:18 <Flygon> Can they even couple together, and one just tows?
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12:46:37 <Flygon> Even Trams here are designed to tow... and they don't have couplers
12:46:41 <NGC3982> The last trains i used was the Vacuum Tube Train NewGRF. Are there some train NewGRF's that date after that?
12:47:08 <NGC3982> Would be neat to make a server run trough 3-400 years with continuus new trains or rails
12:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: mechanical coupling possibly by an adapter, but electric coupling is already near hopeless, see ICE3 and ICE3 (new) above
12:47:32 <Flygon> You'll need more GRF's..
12:47:35 <Pinkbeast> Doesn't NUTS go very late? Could be wrong.
12:47:43 <Flygon> Eddi: Electric coupling?
12:47:50 <Pinkbeast> 1832: the UKRS2 Planet, or 2cc?
12:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: like, heating, steering, ...
12:48:39 <Flygon> Oh, you mean one locomotive controlling other locos?
12:48:49 <Flygon> And MU's controlling others?
12:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> heat. produced by electricity through a resistor
12:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> standard since 1920
12:49:16 <Flygon> ...you may have lost me
12:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> needs a connector
12:49:59 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: eletric coupling is not the problem.
12:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> this connector is in the coupling
12:50:08 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the shitty software revisions don't interact properly
12:50:12 <Flygon> The trains use heat to couple together? (?)
12:50:23 <Celestar> prolly all written in some crappy java application servers ...
12:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "distributed real time java" :p
12:50:53 <Flygon> Here, electronic compatibility is a bit of an issue between suburban EMU's, but towing and multiple crew operation is always possible
12:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hence why it takes one second to react on entering a command as simple as "brake now"
12:51:19 <Flygon> Coupling Sprinters to Electric Comengs is not outright unusual... transition coupling is needed, though
12:51:40 <Flygon> But, interestingly, the modern R-class Steam locomotives are designed for DMU operation :p
12:52:14 <Flygon> Run out of water? No problem, just tell the T-class that's been doing nothing to push to the next station :p
12:52:18 <Pinkbeast> NGC: Mmm. I did find the early UKRS2 years are a bit sparse.
12:53:15 <NGC3982> Yes, the "Planet years" are hard
12:53:21 <NGC3982> But it sure makes a fun game
12:53:51 <NGC3982> But it can be solved.
12:54:07 <NGC3982> Pax only, dual (or triple engine) and patience.
12:54:46 <Flygon> Flygon lacks enough skill slots to learn patience
12:55:30 <Flygon> I'm too used to momentum expansion
12:55:43 <Pinkbeast> I single-headed pax trains, actually, just kept them nice and small and designed routes with an eye to the terrain.
12:55:43 <Flygon> Damn you Alpha Centauri
12:55:50 <NGC3982> I sometimes wish that the time in the game would go slower.
12:55:56 <Pinkbeast> Also short town-town routes can easily be served with horse trams.
12:56:04 <Flygon> Also, as it turns out, Infinite City Sprawl is a valid tactic in OpenTTD
12:56:11 <Pinkbeast> Ah, I was using daylength 4 and sometimes wished it would go faster. :-)
12:56:25 <NGC3982> Can time span be changed?
12:56:33 <NGC3982> Flygon: What's that? :)
12:57:30 <Pinkbeast> Most patchpacks have included a daylength patch, yes - it's a common project.
12:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: start on a map with one town and 0 industries (manual funding only)
12:57:55 <NGC3982> I have never used a patch in OpenTTD
12:58:17 <Flygon> Basically, build a crapload of Trams and watch the money roll
12:59:06 <Flygon> Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
12:59:13 <Flygon> Or: Civilization II's sequel
12:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: why are your formers not 0-1-2?
13:00:20 <Flygon> Eddi: He built a lot on Planetfall and decided to just upgrade the existing Formers
13:00:25 <Flygon> Rather than build Rover Formers
13:09:33 <Pinkbeast> NGC: Huh. I find it vexing to play without daylength, working separation, and cargod*st which means I don't play very often. :-/
13:09:48 <NGC3982> I have started a new game with FIRS+UKRS2+NUTS on ttd.dndr.se
13:09:57 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: Ah, i see.
13:10:19 <planetmaker> NGC3982, you think it's sensible to mix ukrs2 and nuts?
13:10:51 <Pinkbeast> Won't most of the vehicles just refuse to couple together? But if you want to play after the end of ukrs2 I guess that doesn't matter.
13:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: so where dis you actually find a "working separation"? :p
13:13:56 <V453000> might be useful for getting nuts wagons for firs, but as most nust vehicles will probably be stronger than ukrs2, I dont see the logic either :)
13:13:59 <NGC3982> planetmaker: I have no idea, that's why i'm trying. :)
13:14:02 <Pinkbeast> Chill's had one if you never sent a vehicle for servicing (sigh)
13:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: emphasis on _working_
13:15:05 <Pinkbeast> And routes didn't get too congested and you didn't mind a bit of manual sorting out and... well, it gave you something to do after you'd built railways over the entire map.
13:15:22 <Pinkbeast> It was better than having all the pax trains on a route running line astern of each other, in my view.
13:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: you can do manual separation with stock timetables, but it's very tedious
13:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the time-based system is better, but doesn't relieve you of most of the work, like setting up the timetable in the first place
13:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> automatic separation never works
13:17:19 <Pinkbeast> I autofilled timetables in the final Chills and it worked OK. Not great, but better than nothing.
13:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope the new timetable patch will actually help in synchronising several lines, but i haven't tested that yet
13:18:20 <NGC3982> planetmaker: What do you think?
13:18:41 <Pinkbeast> Of course it considerably exacerbated the problems with a vehicle seeking automatic servicing going for the worst depot possible.
13:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> to quote V453000: you sholdn't do servicing :p
13:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (i'm considering a mode in CETS where maintenance doubles or quadruples if you don't service your trains)
13:25:06 <V453000> nobody cares about costs
13:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: with non-linear infrastructure costs, i thing we might get to that point where it matters
13:26:42 <V453000> of course it can matter, you can always make the player go bankrupt
13:26:54 <V453000> point is, finding the most profittable solution is so trivial that it wont matter in the long run
13:27:27 <Pinkbeast> What I'd really like is a way to make reliability matter absent breakdowns.
13:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the point is, there needs to be a thin line between cost efficiency and expansion
13:27:54 <Pinkbeast> Eddi: Power could reduce when unserviced - that'd get trains into the depots.
13:28:06 <V453000> reducing power or speed when unserviced would matter, indeed
13:28:55 <Pinkbeast> Aha. How about this. Power reduces when unserviced, and the breakdown chance reduces cargo payments - so there is a penalty for using a fast but unreliable engine.
13:29:18 <Pinkbeast> Whoops, canteen closes in 15 minutes. Later!
13:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> those are all good ideas
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13:35:48 <planetmaker> NGC3982, I think they try quite different wrt their game play intentions
13:39:22 <NGC3982> planetmaker: I tried starting the game a bit further in time, and yes - the GRF's are not compatible.
13:39:28 <NGC3982> I restarted with NUTS
13:41:42 <planetmaker> technically they might be compatible. But not from a gameplay POV :-)
13:41:59 <planetmaker> or rather: there should be no reason that they are incompatible technically
13:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> UKRS gets quite bitchy if combined with other GRFs :p
13:42:42 <NGC3982> That was what i wanted to say with incompatible :)
13:42:52 <peter1138> shouldn't it be unreserved when the last part fully leaves the tile?
13:42:56 <planetmaker> yes... likely you forgot to set a parameter ;-)
13:42:57 <NGC3982> Way too different number-wise
13:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i haven't read the code in a while, but reservation was handled on VehicleEnterTile last time...
13:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean un-reservation
14:03:24 <Pinkbeast> I've used UKRS2 with 2cc - not ideal but it works, and it beats having nothing to puts cows in after 1960 or so
14:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: yes, that's one of the worst gameplay-violations of "realism"
14:10:27 <planetmaker> very much so. That's... one of the best examples why realism sucks
14:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's already bad enough in DBSet where livestock wagons are limited to 100km/h while everything else may go 120km&h
14:11:40 <Pinkbeast> Pikka and I disagree and it's his set, but... I never met anyone yet who dismantles half their rail network in the 60s (bonus points if you do it in a co-op game while your wife builds an RV network to take over) so why not a hypothetical stock wagon.
14:11:55 * Pinkbeast rather appreciates the headscratching that comes with slow-moving trains
14:12:39 <V453000> What, UKRS2 has no livestock wagons after 1960, like ... they disappear or?
14:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: basically, yes
14:13:08 <Pinkbeast> The existing livestock wagon expires (and even with expiry off, would be _very_ slow, prohibitively so on any shared network)
14:13:18 <Pinkbeast> Because the UK does not now transport network by rail.
14:13:30 <V453000> ah, well wagon speed limits are also stupid to use tbh
14:13:44 <V453000> well thats retarded :D
14:13:59 <V453000> -> when you dont use wagon speed limits and expiring vehicles, it works?
14:14:38 <Pinkbeast> Um well some of us enjoy having gameplay constraints?
14:14:57 <V453000> that isnt a constraint at all
14:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> DBSet has a long standing bug where if you use retiring wagons and no speed limits, then the old wagons disappear and the new wagons won't appear
14:15:29 <V453000> especially since the only real solution to trains with different speeds is either timetable speed limits (which you have to update upon every autoreplace so that is kind of not a real option), or splitting tracks
14:15:56 <V453000> and if you split your networks, it isnt a constraint but making it easier
14:17:04 <Pinkbeast> If you have infinite space to build in
14:18:38 <V453000> having 5 simple lines is a lot smaller than having 5 combined lines where any train can go anywhere
14:19:00 * NGC3982 just finished Star Trek DS9.
14:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i ended up mostly separating my networks after the train load just wasn't handle-able anymore: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
14:19:34 <NGC3982> Best Star Trek series by far.
14:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to finally watch that completely, but got stuck somewhere in the middle of season 3 or so
14:21:04 <NGC3982> After season four, it makes a turn for the better
14:21:10 <NGC3982> A turn for the fantabulous, even.
14:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> also i think the alternate-universe episodes weren't as good as i remembered them
14:21:55 <__ln__> indeed, it gets much better in the last 3..4 seasons, so don't get stuck at 3.
14:22:23 <__ln__> even worse than lwaxana troi episodes
14:23:21 <peter1138> that might be just cos that's the one i watched
14:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly enterprise is the bestestest :p
14:23:53 <NGC3982> Piccard is great, but character development really takes a step up in DS9.
14:24:00 <NGC3982> Gul Dukat, for instance.
14:24:30 <__ln__> there was only one alternate universe episode in TOS, and that would have been an appropriate number for DS9 too, as it's not such a brilliant idea anyway.
14:24:31 <peter1138> i was 9, why would i care about character development?
14:24:57 <NGC3982> peter1138: I'm not talking about your impression of Star Trek.
14:25:02 <NGC3982> peter1138: But about mine. :)
14:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always getting the impression that i'm the only one in the world that liked wesley crusher
14:25:29 <NGC3982> Yes, you are the only one.
14:26:08 <NGC3982> But no, i can't say i hated him as a character
14:26:17 <NGC3982> But he didn't really fit, if you ask me.
14:27:12 <NGC3982> My favourites has always been Piccard, O'Brian, Bashir and the EMH Doctor program on Voyager.
14:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the doctor was totally annoying
14:28:23 <Pinkbeast> Dax, at the time. From which you may conclude I was a teenage boy and an obvious strategy on Paramount's part worked perfectly. :-/
14:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> almost as much as that nutjob guy what's his name...
14:28:29 <NGC3982> I guess i'm used to the French spelling.
14:28:57 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: Haha. Ezri och Jadzia?
14:29:03 <Pinkbeast> Errr the first one?
14:29:05 <__ln__> Pinkbeast: you mean Curzon Dax?
14:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> who in this universe liked ezri?
14:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> although i don't think i have seen many episodes with her
14:30:29 <__ln__> she's season 7, so you can't have
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14:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i meant back when it was new, i missed a lot of episodes during the later seasons
14:35:18 <NGC3982> I did not own a TV until Voyager was airing.
14:35:42 <__ln__> as i've said before, you are living in the wrong country if season 7 has even been shown on tv, ever.
14:36:29 <NGC3982> I am pretty sure DS9 was aired in Sweden.
14:36:38 <__ln__> it's much nicer that 3 or 4 seasons of a series are shown, and then for no reason not the rest.
14:36:51 <NGC3982> Oh, you mean like that
14:36:58 <NGC3982> Yeah, i have never understood that.
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14:38:40 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: lots of series have had that fate...
14:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: last notable was season 5 of eureka
14:39:38 <__ln__> happened here with at least TNG, DS9, Voyager, and probably various non-trek series. could be that some other network aired the remaining seasons of TNG years later.
14:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> worst thing was farscape
14:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they only translated season 1-3, skipped season 4, but translated the final miniseries
14:41:05 <NGC3982> I guess it's a matter of money
14:41:18 <NGC3982> You buy a third of the series, and dump it if the rating goes down the tubes.
14:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: traditionally, series are bought in "package deals". so you buy "all warner movies and series for the next 3 years"
14:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and potentially you trade afterwards for series that fit better into your program
14:42:58 <NGC3982> And exclude the not so fitting?
14:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well if you have non-fitting series, and nobody wants to trade, they'll just rot in some poison cabinet
14:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they get aired at some 2AM timeslot or so
14:44:55 <__ln__> for the most time, DS9 and Voyager were aired either at like sunday at noon, or some day after midnight. no wonder those weren't extremely popular.
14:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> most times i saw trek was weekday-afternoon
14:45:56 <NGC3982> Voyager was aired quite formidably.
14:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> varying 15:00 or 16:00 timeslot
14:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> enterprise was totally rubbish, was saturday afternoon-ish and against another scifi-series (i think andromeda or somesuch)
14:47:20 <NGC3982> Enterprise is the latest, right?
14:47:33 <NGC3982> Haven't seen a single episode
14:47:42 <NGC3982> It has taken me two years to finish TNG and DS9
14:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> where they screwed up everything from klingons to borg
14:48:06 <__ln__> TNG was "Raumschiff Enterprise" in german, so what was Enterprise called?
14:48:09 * NGC3982 starts up the Voyager DVD's.
14:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: just enterprise
14:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and the full name of TNG was "Raumschiff Enterprise - Das nächste Jahrhundert"
14:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (back translated: "the next century")
14:49:55 <NGC3982> That lingual expression of a century was very Vulcan.
14:50:31 <NGC3982> Jahr is "year", and "Hundert" feels like a hundred?
14:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it's how 99.9% of german nouns work
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14:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that's too incoherent for me to watch...
14:57:08 <__ln__> the what-was-the-girls-name linguist character in Enterprise makes me wonder whether the americans equate knowing a foreign language to some kind of a supernatural power.
14:59:20 <__ln__> like.. she hears a 15-second sample of some completely new extra-terrestrial language, and in that time she can figure out the syntax and vocabulary of the language. and if she can't, the captain wants her to try harder.
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15:04:23 <__ln__> and such an irreplaceable person is allowed to participate dangerous away team missions.
15:04:53 <Pinkbeast> Everyone vital always takes part in away team missions.
15:05:07 <Pinkbeast> Star Fleet has a very generous pension scheme for officers.
15:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i guess they needed some "plot device" replacement for the universal translator
15:06:19 <Pinkbeast> Oh, of course, Enterprise was the prequel where they didn't, eg, get rid of the transporter even though it breaks the plot every episode
15:07:13 <NGC3982> I just saw how Nog looks without make-up
15:07:35 <__ln__> Quark's nephew or something
15:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably wouldn't recognize this person...
15:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause> like Worf and other crazily masked guys
15:08:51 <NGC3982> You would recognice Worf.
15:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but... they all look alike :p
15:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> although i did recognize quark in some other series
15:11:49 <NGC3982> Might be more of the voice than the face, i guess.
15:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, obvously not the character :p
15:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> voice is tricky if you deal with synchronisations
15:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> not always the same actor always gets the same voice
15:12:26 <NGC3982> Like Worf, for instance
15:13:54 <Pinkbeast> Same voice: er except Sirtis's Laaahndon accent sounds sod all like Troi, for example. ;-)
15:16:26 <Pinkbeast> Sirtis talks normally with a relative lower-class London accent and presumably might talk like that in another role
15:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no clue what that sounds like
15:18:31 <__ln__> the good thing about Voyager is that there are no lwaxana troi episodes
15:19:47 <Pinkbeast> Eddi: sure, but you can appreciate it sounds nothing like Troi - you wouldn't recognise it as the same person.
15:21:09 <NGC3982> __ln__: I'm starting it now.
15:21:18 <NGC3982> Best thing to do on a birthday.
15:21:52 <__ln__> it can be a disappointment after DS9. but it's not that bad.
15:22:35 <__ln__> a colleague of mine watched all star trek movies and star trek series (even the animated one) within a year.
15:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i watched the first voyager episodes on some star trek marathon in school
15:23:42 <Flygon> Voyager starts off so slow...
15:23:56 <Flygon> But it gets better and better and better...
15:24:07 <Flygon> It's like that dude in an RPG that starts off weak as hell
15:24:21 <Flygon> It becomes f'ing AWESOME
15:25:33 <Flygon> The Warp 10 episode is quite possibly the worst I've ever seen thus far, however, in terms of making any sense
15:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Google Streetview Botswana shows a donkey that allegedly was killed by the streetview car"
15:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: voyager seems very stretched out in the end
15:32:33 <__ln__> in Voyager there's a vulcan in the crew, a vulcan that has made an album where he sings. that's a good sign.
15:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so you suggest that sylar should start singing? :p
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15:52:04 <NGC3982> They have tied lot's of stuff in
15:52:07 <NGC3982> Quark is in the first episode
15:52:26 <NGC3982> The admiral that figures alot with Sisko in the war, and the ending of DS9 - is Janeway's husband.
15:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the backdoor pilot effect
15:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you get some familiar people that the viewer is accustomed to to ease into the story
15:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea which admiral you're talking about, though
15:54:49 <NGC3982> Hehe, he is well present from the first to the last season, but doesn't do anything of great importance.
15:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Trek only sprinkles in admirals once in a while to interfere with the storyline :p
15:55:35 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I like it. It's a good way to start off.
16:02:09 <__ln__> almost all the star fleet admirals appear to be completely incompetent as leaders, and/or insane.
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16:24:34 <NGC3982> __ln__: But that is intentional.
16:24:39 <NGC3982> At least in TNG and DS9.
16:25:37 <NGC3982> I noticed the blunt racism that is present troughout TNG, DS9 and Voyager
16:25:51 <NGC3982> And i read up on it, and it's intentional (and quiet obvious).
16:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not a lot of room for admirals in voyager
16:27:43 <Pinkbeast> Perhaps Star Fleet adopts the earlier practice that captains promote by seniority so you basically have to keep useless admirals around
16:31:13 <NGC3982> One of the pure basics of the entire Star Fleet history is that it's infested with racism and aristocracy, of sorts.
16:39:46 <NGC3982> And, to talk of something on-topic for the first time today: The NUTS NewGRF Trainset feels overpowered.
16:40:45 <NGC3982> That might be just me playing way too much UKRS2+
16:41:18 <V453000> UKRS2 doesnt expect you to have 2000 production primaries which is imo a big problem later on
16:41:51 <NGC3982> Yes, i guess. It's not like i'm saying it's wrong or anything.
16:41:57 <NGC3982> It was just a big contrast.
16:42:06 <V453000> however, if you compare NUTS to DB set or Dutch trains, transrapids for passengers with 240passengers/tile and 500 speed, or 60 capacity wagons, I dont think NUTS is rather in the middle ;)
16:42:19 <NGC3982> Though, i have never seen the cute little logotypes between the engine names and the picture in the depot before.
16:43:02 <V453000> if you are interested in knowing more about NUTS, just have a look at the wiki :)
16:43:23 <Pinkbeast> I think in UKRS1 I coped with full-production primaries, but they only started to turn up about when the 9F did.
16:43:51 <Pinkbeast> It would have been a bit messy if eg the biggest engine was the 0-8-0 goods
16:44:12 <V453000> for passengers it is very weak though :(
16:44:22 <V453000> the trains look great but cant handle much traffic
16:44:52 <V453000> NUTS is very strong in all aspects, but not extreme in any
16:45:19 <V453000> for passenger transportation it is comparable to japanese train set, just a bit stronger
16:45:29 <Pinkbeast> Coo, and the 9F's tractive effort is _much_ lower in UKRS2
16:45:32 <V453000> and for cargo, well somewhere a little bit above UKRS1
16:45:54 <V453000> stats change between UKRS2 and UKRS1? :D I thought those were "realistic"
16:46:46 <Pinkbeast> On the other hand the tractive effort for other locos is unchanged. I think the freight locos in UKRS1 may have had wrong figures
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16:47:34 <V453000> well NUTS changes stats of vehicles pretty much between every two versions :D
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16:48:06 <Pinkbeast> Now I think, I seem to remember - could be wrong, ask Pikka - that the UKRS1 figures aren't limited by adhesion so the freight locos with huge boilers have crazy tractive effort.
16:48:38 <V453000> I dont really care about these realistic details :)
16:50:02 <Pinkbeast> Hm. I tend to feel the acceleration of electrics helps to make them not just interchangeable stats packages
16:50:41 <Pinkbeast> Hm, and the GWR are a bit stuffed in UKRS2
16:52:21 <Pinkbeast> There's a generic 4-6-0 which is much like the Black Five, so their best express locos are missing, but everyone who built Pacifics gets the A4 / Britannia / Princess Coronation / *spit* Merchant Navy
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18:45:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24917 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-01-16 18:45:20 UTC)
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 15 changes by ntchris
18:45:31 <DorpsGek> hebrew - 193 changes by taleinat
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> polish - 19 changes by wojteks86
18:50:14 <__ln__> what's wrong with horse meat?
18:51:14 <NGC3982> Nothing, but someone that sells you cow meat that contaigns horse meat probably has one or two problems.
18:51:53 <NGC3982> If this is related to yesterdays discussion.
18:52:54 <__ln__> i don't recall yseterday's discussion, but i read the news that said britons are upset by horse in their burgers.
18:53:33 <frosch123> who wouldn't be upset about a whole horse inside a burger
18:53:39 <NGC3982> Yes, several processing plants have been selling cow meat that contains horse DNA
18:53:54 <NGC3982> Wich means they either "processed" horse, or fed the cattle with horse.
18:53:58 <frosch123> NGC3982: cleary the cows murdered and ate a horse
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18:55:42 <glx> cows used to eat cows some time ago
18:55:51 <NGC3982> And we all know what happend then
18:56:03 <NGC3982> It's like Prussia all over again
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19:01:42 <peter1138> NGC3982, it sounds like you're suggesting that a cow that eats horse will absorb its dna...
19:02:23 <peter1138> so... if i went for a dna test, would it have traces of cow, pig, and not to mention a ton of plant dna?
19:04:09 <frosch123> sure, if it includes material from stomach and intestine
19:04:24 <frosch123> cows have a lot of stomach
19:07:35 <NGC3982> peter1138: It contained both meat and DNA, as far as i remember.
19:09:05 <NGC3982> And yes, what frosch said.
19:11:17 <peter1138> it's a stupid suggestion
19:11:44 <peter1138> it's obvious that horse meat was processed in the same plant
19:13:02 <frosch123> allergy info: may contain horse
19:14:08 <peter1138> just cos we don't tend to eat horse here doesn't mean it isn't processed
19:16:19 <__ln__> i've seen horse meat being sold here a few times... it's not common, but happens.
19:16:47 <frosch123> horse sausages are quite common here
19:18:37 <frosch123> kangaroo is uncommon, but it was offered at the chinese restaurant i was a few months ago (though i have no idea how kangaroo relates to chinese)
19:18:40 <peter1138> those cheap frozen burgers suck anyway
19:18:45 <peter1138> i'm surprised they contain any meat at all :p
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19:37:41 <V453000> I think it is a good method 1. to not show modern cargoes too early, 2. not to make the station set go completely batshit insane
19:37:55 <andythenorth> V453000: you need to recruit yexo ;)
19:38:23 <V453000> hm :) sprites first :P
19:38:24 <andythenorth> so your cargo graphics vary by railtype? o_O
19:38:31 <V453000> yeah that would be best
19:38:57 <V453000> it is simple, every railtype has different wagons and for every wagon I drew different cargo
19:39:21 <V453000> so a rail/elrl/mono/mglv separation would work best
19:39:45 <V453000> and as mono/mglv tends to contain wtf, it could be just left out for sane train sets which dont use mono/mglv
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19:41:07 <V453000> and in large eyecandy complexes, it is good to have at least some form of control over how it looks
19:41:33 <V453000> so while railtype differences do allow for control, they keep the nice logic how chips works -build stuff, done, easy
19:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> i'm surprised they contain any meat at all :p <-- funny, i've read that same comment elsewhere :p
19:45:49 <V453000> how does that actually hold together
19:45:58 <Supercheese> Can GameScripts build Newobjects with OWNER_NONE ?
19:47:13 <andythenorth> can GameScripts write newgrf for me? :P
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20:37:35 <Zuu> Supercheese: AFAIK, GameScripts cannot build NewObjects at all
20:38:22 <Zuu> For that to work, the GS would need to understand which NewObject looks nice to put where
20:39:28 <Supercheese> I was thinking maybe to have the GS pick specific objects from specific newgrfs, but that's unable to deal with arbitrary objects, of course
20:39:29 <Zuu> I haven't looked at the spec, but I wonder if the NewGRFs need/can specify information that a GS can use to have an idea what each NewObject is.
20:40:20 <Supercheese> the spec has little information with respect to where they should be placed, only where they should not be placed (not on slopes, etc)
20:41:23 <Supercheese> only above snowline, etc.
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20:58:24 <Alberth> near a big flat water area, on hills, in particular nice configurations, near roads, ....
20:59:05 <Supercheese> Yes, a mystery, in need of solving
20:59:09 <Alberth> quite impossible to do in a generic way
20:59:33 <Supercheese> Mm, probably on a specific-grf, specific-object basis only
20:59:42 <Supercheese> specialized scripts or some such
21:00:22 <Alberth> and if you're lucky, you can re-use some GS code between different objects
21:03:03 <Supercheese> although GSes need to be able to build objects first :P
21:06:28 <Supercheese> I didn't find any function
21:06:37 <Alberth> that should be relatively easy to fix, would be my guess
21:07:04 <Supercheese> Lots of BuildFoo() but nothing for BuildNewObject() or the like
21:07:12 <Supercheese> I could be wrong of course
21:07:28 <Alberth> I don't even know how to do it in C++ :p
21:09:20 <Supercheese> well, bbl, off to university
21:21:32 <peter1138> "why isn't this game fast-forwarding...?"
21:24:43 <Rubidium> peter1138: that can fast forward... if you modify the server
21:26:55 <NGC3982> When running a game with breakdowns, would you personally think that using depots as buoyes is cheating?
21:28:53 <Alberth> only what you think is fair, counts in SP ;)
21:31:18 <NGC3982> What i think is irrelevant, im simply curious.
21:33:40 <peter1138> what i think is that the green glass roof in newstations is pretty ugly
21:38:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24918 trunk/src/lang/hebrew.txt (2013-01-16 21:38:14 UTC)
21:38:20 <DorpsGek> -Fix: string validation
21:40:28 <Stimrol> Hello, one thing about the translation files, it is not possible to translate the seperations in the newgrf downloads
21:46:08 <Stimrol> Rubidium, sorry noticed to late. This is my fail is checked the newgrf list for the nightly coop and it had this seperation and I thought that it was a part of the code, on second check I figured it was just them :)
21:46:44 <Zuu> Regarding the task of detecting which string parameter that was clicked, I got a working solution yesterday. On LTR languages it seem to work good. On RTL, the click area is a bit off. Still, not all parameter types are supported and I have not had a look on strings from GSes. However, while I have a solution to automatically insert control codes before/after parameters, I'm thinking about instead adding {CLICK1}, {CLICK2} etc. that have to be in
21:46:44 <Zuu> cluded in strings for the few cases when click on strings will be used. This also have the benefit that it can be used in cases when you want to allow click detection on fragments that are not a string parameter.
21:48:41 <Zuu> Of course it may still be possible to both support manual {CLICK#} control codes and automatic codes for parameters, but that makes things a bit more complicated.
21:50:18 <Zuu> (my solution do not use separete codes for begin/end. Instead the same code is repeated to terminate the click area. The idea is that if ICU decide to shuffle around the control codes, that shouldn't break it as long as ICU doesn't decide to remove them)
22:23:29 <NGC3982> __ln__: I'm trough the first seven episodes of Voyager season 1. First impressions is "I have seen this in my youth" and "Well.. Ok."
22:25:57 <Zuu> Supercheese: If GSes are allowed to construct NewObjects and identify specific objects from specific NewGRFs, then *someone* could maintain a GS library which contain code for using specific NewObjects of specific NewGRFs. This library could then expose a public interface that allows "build station eye candy near station X", "build windmills near X,Y" etc.
22:28:34 <Zuu> Having this information either decentralized in each NewGRF or centralized to just one GS library would avoid that each GS author have to duplicate and maintain code for supporting a number of NewGRFs that players will want to use.
22:37:40 <Supercheese> Oh right, libraries, forgot about those
22:53:21 <NGC3982> And i now notice i use way too many signals
22:53:48 <Supercheese> use Pikka's finescale tracks n' signals, the signals are nearly invisible :P
22:54:21 <NGC3982> It feels like that will create more problems than it would solve.
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23:44:00 <Superuser> 'Drag train vehicle to here to sell it'? I had no idea you could do this. Do you mean transfer the train instead?
23:45:44 <__ln__> it's still impossible for anyone to view those urls you paste, without being a translator
23:46:44 <__ln__> you've never sold a vehicle in a depot?
23:48:15 <Superuser> I have, but you don't DRAG them there?
23:48:20 <Superuser> you send them there.
23:49:38 <__ln__> i think you're mistaken about the context of that text. please find it in the game and it'll be clear to you.
23:50:28 <Superuser> yeah I just realised where
23:50:40 <Superuser> the depot menu, herp derp
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continue to next day ⏵
