IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-10
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00:11:25 <DDR> Hey, guise... would it be possible to write script or something that made a new window with AI-like properties?
00:11:47 <DDR> eg, click a button, have the script keep an eye on something for you?
00:12:40 <DDR> See, I have come to the conclusion that having trains have a route is all backwards. What we _really_ want is for a route to have trains.
00:13:19 <DDR> Then you just edit the route's train-consist and it'll replace what we have out when convenient.
00:14:26 <DDR> That way, we don't have to fuck around manually upgrading trains and whatnot. I know there is autoreplace, but I'm a bit scared of that.
00:26:04 <Flygon> I actually like that idea
00:26:17 <Flygon> Assign trains to a route, and have them be modified for adding or removing cars
00:26:45 <Flygon> Issue is, what happens if you have multiple different sorts of trains, on one route/group, that while comparable
00:26:51 <Flygon> Are still different types?
00:27:08 <Flygon> To use a local example, you have Hitachi, Comeng, and Siemens trains
00:27:28 <Flygon> They range from 1972 to 2004, but all are comparable, and have similar specs and carriage size...
00:28:03 <Flygon> But in OpenTTD, adding extra carriages would either require a homogenous train type, or doing 3 seperate operations, assuming your script works the way I think it does...
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00:46:16 <DDR> Flygon: Different route, but I'd considering having a 'this route duplicates this other route". Like how ctrl-goto works now.
00:46:51 <DDR> You'd only have one engine type, of course, but I usually run routes with homogeneous engines anyway.
00:47:11 <DDR> Otherwise, the faster engines run into the slower ones.
00:48:24 <Flygon> I was assuming this was things like suburban/metro routes
00:48:27 <DDR> I mean, yes, you loose some flexibility, but I'd sacrifice that for not having to figure out twenty identical trains when auto-replace can't.
00:48:32 <Flygon> Where generally, all trains have the same specs
00:48:40 <DDR> I'm not really sure what those are, in this context.
00:50:03 <Flygon> I was assuming a similar sort of situation in OpenTTD could cause issues :p
00:52:46 <DDR> It would, but that's not what the routes idea optimizes for.
00:53:49 <DDR> Like, the problem is that I have 10 identical trains running a single route, and it's a real pain to have to upgrade.
00:54:57 <DDR> I was thinking that an AI could be used to band-aid the problem. You tell the AI what routes have what stops, give it a train, and then it takes care of the details.
01:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> DDR: lots of things involved with this route idea... group system redesign, timetables, vehicle templates, ...
01:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> some of these things already have patches
01:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> problem with "AI-like" behaviour: someone will always find applications that break this behaviour. e.g. the existing automatic timetable separation breaks horribly when there are traffic jams
01:10:28 <Supercheese> Official report of a bug I mentioned yesterday
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01:31:48 <DDR> I only use timetables for things like 'stay 5 days'. I was thinking that a sort of route-ai could also, say, 'run vehicles non-clumped', but that is non-core.
01:32:03 <DDR> It's a bit of a pipe dream.
01:43:25 <Flygon> I only end up running timetables for time spent in the station...
01:43:41 <Flygon> Because it's hard to predict how long a route can take on optimum speed
01:43:53 <Flygon> And since I expand networks agressively
01:43:59 <Flygon> I can't spend time on timetables...
01:48:58 <DDR> Especially with breakdowns on.
02:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> breakdowns are silly
03:07:24 <DDR> nah, good chaos, makes you design resilient systems.
03:51:11 <Supercheese> model_life: 1920;
03:51:37 <Supercheese> Problem: that value seems to be capped
03:51:57 <Supercheese> according to the spec anyway
03:58:54 <Supercheese> Guess that's why eGRVTS horse-drawn stuff isn't available from year 0
04:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the exact limits might be in the NFO specs
04:06:50 <Supercheese> byte, so 255 or so
04:07:13 <Supercheese> though NML claims 254
04:07:34 <Supercheese> I doubt very many people will play games before 1680
04:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "doubt" is not "certain"
04:08:21 <Supercheese> Not sure how to provide the option though, guess I could just have a duplicate horse
04:08:35 <Supercheese> Oh, forgot to mention it is for a horse & rider
04:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure, maybe 255 could be treated as infinite internally
04:09:09 <Supercheese> NML named constant VEHICLE_NEVER_EXPIRES
04:09:23 <Supercheese> thought I'd expect that to be zero and not 255
04:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well just use that constant then?
04:09:56 <Supercheese> Oh, I havent typed out my thought process here
04:10:10 <Supercheese> my auto-correct script is not working
04:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> relying on auto spell correct sounds like a horribly hazardous habit
04:11:45 <Supercheese> I have this enormous autohotkey script
04:11:56 <Supercheese> It has enabled me to be immensely lazy with contractions
04:12:53 <Supercheese> Just type "didnt" and auto-filters to didn't, and so on
04:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i mean
04:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if you start to rely on this, your own spelling will degenerate
04:18:13 <Supercheese> For some people, perhaps
04:20:05 <Flygon> Wait, it's impossible to have vehicles before 1680?
04:20:07 <Supercheese> Would certainly be an interesting experiment to carry out with a large sample size
04:20:38 <Supercheese> It's impossible to have vehicles that expire around 1930 before the year 1676
04:20:45 <Supercheese> due to the model_life cap at 254
04:21:09 <Supercheese> of course the game adds some randomness to the expiry date
04:21:19 <Supercheese> expiry? expiration?
04:21:37 <Supercheese> they seem to be synonyms
04:22:37 <Supercheese> it's too bad there's no synonym for cinnamon, think of all the puns that could be made
04:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell are you talking about?
04:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i know what a pun is
04:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and i know what cinnamon is (i think)
04:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but i still don't know what the hell you're talking about
04:26:42 <Supercheese> perhaps it's a dialect thing, they sound almost the same when I say them
04:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> these words definitely do not sound alike to my german ears
04:27:07 <Supercheese> yeah, different pronunciations then
04:27:18 <Supercheese> they're identical save for the final syllable in US english
04:27:32 <Flygon> English has different languages depending on the location
04:27:48 <Flygon> It makes Skype chats baffling difficult with Americans when you speak Australian
04:29:56 <Flygon> This makes things even more awkward when I have Europeans telling me that they'd like to Skype chat, but their spoken English is apperantly terrible...
04:30:12 <Flygon> Awkward step is telling them that at least 25% of Americans I speak to struggle to understand me :p
04:30:17 <Supercheese> we tend to overabuse the schwa in US english
04:30:39 <kamnet> I now have access to all the CNet information for OpenTTD.
04:31:01 <Supercheese> (not exactly IPA, but I hope you get the drift)
04:31:11 <Flygon> I only got ASCII enabled :P
04:31:24 <Flygon> cbf figuring out Unicode
04:31:36 <Supercheese> Eh, was auto-enabled for me
04:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: might have to do with me separating "a" and "o" very strictly when reading words
04:32:13 <Supercheese> Indeed, as I said we're terribly lazy with vowels here in the States
04:32:23 <Flygon> Supercheese: You'd be baffled as to how badly Australia has mangled English
04:32:42 <Supercheese> Well, Australia is a large place
04:32:50 <Flygon> And locations inside states...
04:33:09 <Flygon> America is a large place
04:33:14 <Supercheese> Although even places like Spain and Germany have different dialects, and they're quite smaller
04:33:24 <Flygon> But at least people don't confuse you with being either British, Australian, or Dutch :p
04:33:41 <Supercheese> Americans can easily confuse any Commonwealth accent with another
04:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there are areas in germany where one village doesn't understand the dialect of the neighbouring village :pö
04:33:55 <Flygon> The Dutch guess by a friend was actually a very good catch... my Grandfather was Dutch :p
04:34:16 <Flygon> Eddi: Sounds like Finland, going by my discussions with Finns
04:34:36 <Flygon> We established that the only difference between Finland and Australia is that one snows more often :B
04:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or in switzerland, where dialects evolved independently in different valleys. it's like galapagos turtles or so :p
04:38:03 <kamnet> Interestingly enough, I read an article a week or two ago which stated that American dialects of the 20th century most closely reflects English dialects of the 18th century.
04:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very overgeneralized
04:42:29 <kamnet> There's still quite a bit of influence from Irish and Italian immigration, but for the most part still very "stock". It said the change in the English dialects started in the upper class in the early 19th century and eventually became indoctrinated into the education system.
04:47:53 <Supercheese> Fun, English wikipedia featured article is the London Metropolitan Railway
04:48:54 <kamnet> Ah, here we go. And I was slightly off. Split was in mid 18th century (around the time of the American Revolution)
05:09:14 <Supercheese> Hmm, eGRVTS sources aren't available anywhere, are they?
05:13:29 <Pikka> peter1138, scuddles demands a server reset
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06:17:42 <Supercheese> Wait, how do eGRVTS horses have 3 animation frames, when motion_counter is not divisible by 3...
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06:24:27 <Supercheese> Huh, I never noticed but it does hang on 1 frame longer than the other two
07:03:44 <peter1138> Supercheese, with advanced varaction 2 you can use mod 3
07:05:06 <Supercheese> Yes, that would leave the remainder one
07:05:14 <Supercheese> hence one frame is longer, right?
07:07:21 <peter1138> why would that leave a remainder?
07:07:50 <peter1138> motion_counter is 32-bits
07:08:26 <peter1138> it would glitch... very rarely
07:08:42 <Supercheese> Hmm, in NML, motion_counter claims to go from 0-15
07:09:06 <Supercheese> motion_counter % 3 would have a remainder then, no?
07:09:28 <Supercheese> or am I totally misunderstanding
07:09:48 <peter1138> i dunno, i've never used nml
07:10:45 <Supercheese> "motion_counter 0 ... 15 "
07:11:16 <Supercheese> I'll write the switches and see if it behaves as expected
07:11:33 <peter1138> maybe someone saw the 16 and thought it meant it was 0..15
07:11:49 <Supercheese> 0..15 same magnitude as 1..16
07:13:24 <peter1138> full 32 bits are returning for newgrf
07:13:42 <peter1138> looks like you'd want to shift >> 8 first though
07:15:26 <Supercheese> Yep, using motion_counter % 3 looks just like eGRVTS
07:17:11 <Supercheese> I rather suspect that's what eGRVTS uses
07:18:12 <Supercheese> So, pseudo-glitchy but nobody's complained as of yet
07:18:15 <Supercheese> I can live with that
07:18:39 <peter1138> well that's wrong and nml's broken then
07:19:55 <peter1138> 'motion_counter' : {'var': 0x46, 'start': 8, 'size': 4},
07:20:06 <peter1138> why would they do this
07:23:06 <peter1138> should be 24, not 4
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07:37:59 <peter1138> simutrans lets me buy vehicles before they're introduced
07:40:43 <peter1138> you look at a vehicle's orders and... it stops
07:55:32 *** Celestar_ is now known as Celestar
07:59:13 <Celestar> peter1138: whatcha doing with Simutrans? :P
08:02:14 <peter1138> it was apt-gettable, so i did
08:02:57 <peter1138> not very pleasurable :p
08:03:46 <peter1138> the toolbars are too long
08:04:13 <peter1138> clicking on a vehicle to view its stats buys it
08:09:23 <Celestar> LOL. Berlin Airport might not be finished before 2017
08:09:47 <Celestar> Some experts suggest that it is cheaper to tear down the whole terminal again and start over
08:10:38 <Celestar> try-and-error international airport construction. Can't really say they're not innovative.
08:17:11 <peter1138> why am i sat here with my headphones on...
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08:39:20 <__ln__> peter1138: sounds ungrammatical
08:50:01 <planetmaker> peter1138, wrt motion counter: it only makes sense - also according to the specs you linked - to distininguish 16 values
08:50:15 <peter1138> it doesn't say that at all
08:50:20 <planetmaker> As the vehicle will not be redrawn, if it doesn't move. and there are only 16 steps in a tile
08:50:25 <planetmaker> it does say exactly that
08:50:35 <peter1138> there are only 16 steps in a tile
08:50:41 <peter1138> but it doesn't reset at the tile end
08:51:03 <peter1138> reach the tile, it goes to 17
08:56:44 <planetmaker> So you could actually introduce longer animations. NML currently only returns (var 0x46 & 0x00000F00) >> 8
08:56:55 <planetmaker> and calls that motion_counter
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10:45:35 <valhallasw> __ln__: what note is that? it's not a normal €5 note, and as far as I know the ECB only makes euro notes
10:46:48 <valhallasw> oh, new notes. I'll shut up :-)
10:47:15 <valhallasw> apparently it's Europa.
11:00:36 <peter1138> mkdir /backup/dir; chown dir.group /backup/dir; chmod 700 /backup/dir;
11:00:54 <peter1138> setfacl -R -m u:"backup":rx /backup/dir;
11:01:26 <peter1138> i thought user "backup" would be able to access /backup/dir :S
11:03:57 <SpComb> the only setfacl's I've run have been copy-pasted off the internets
11:04:37 <peter1138> guess where i got that from :p
11:06:11 <SpComb> so what did it even do?
11:06:28 <SpComb> also on all the files?
11:09:05 <peter1138> just trying to get into it
11:09:45 <SpComb> effective rights mask?
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11:21:45 <__ln__> valhallasw: indeed, it's (some details of) the new note
12:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: as long as it's not newgrf-definable, what's the point?
12:13:39 <peter1138> i'm not doing anything with graphics
12:13:44 <peter1138> just making the ship stop and then rise/fall
12:14:05 <peter1138> looks a bit weird with 2 ships at the same time but there you go
12:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, hence the newgrf authors should be able to do something with graphics
12:16:11 <peter1138> i'm not precluding that
12:16:15 <peter1138> just not implementing it
12:20:23 <peter1138> huge ships glitch everywhere :p
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12:21:22 <dadymax> nothink can be perfect )
12:23:31 <peter1138> that looked catastrophic
12:23:51 <Celestar> collision detection for naval vessels :P
12:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i think that's a bad idea.
12:24:46 <peter1138> the huge ferry glitches out the side of the lock :S
12:25:14 <Celestar> maybe it's a Panama lock and the vessel is post-Panamax?
12:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: it would totally cripple ships, which are already at a disadvantage, because the game doesn't model "slow" cargos very well
12:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: however, i think ships should be separated at docks like aircraft, so only one ship per dock/loading bay
12:26:07 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, guess what
12:26:07 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well. then not crippling ships by having them diffuse through each other sounds like the solution to the wrong problem :P
12:26:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i've a patch for that :p
12:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> your webcam is broken
12:27:26 <drac_boy> eddi problem is 'one ship per dock' may be a bit counterproductive to the small ships. because two can fit in the same berth only one big ocean ship can fit in
12:27:38 <drac_boy> just mentioning that, not been the first time for me tho
12:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: different statemachines for small/medium/large ships?
12:28:36 <peter1138> yeah i adapted ships to use multi-stop docks
12:28:45 <peter1138> so there could be 2 at each dock
12:28:54 <peter1138> but it doesn't use statemachines atm
12:29:15 <peter1138> cos that just isn't going to work with so a wide size different
12:29:37 <peter1138> oh, and of course ships stop outside the dock, not on it
12:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the current dock has 3 sides, so theoretically 3 ships could load there, but maybe large vessels could only load at the "front", not the "sides"
12:30:45 <drac_boy> eddi the reason I bought that up is because even although the scales are a bit out of porpotional it would had been realistic for two lake fishing boats to be able to berth where only one single ocean-going container carrier boat could fit at
12:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, but currently, ships have no "size" at all
12:31:16 <drac_boy> 3 sides..hmm I would really say two but thats me
12:31:34 <peter1138> 2 sides and the end
12:31:52 <peter1138> not all (3) sides may be available though
12:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> we need river docks anyway, things you can put on flat land
12:32:25 <drac_boy> I've never really seen a skinny pier that ever had any berth at the 'front' end rather than only down the sides but I'm not going to complain, do whatever you think you like best of that ok? :)
12:32:55 <peter1138> sure but that's a valid place for ships to stop atm
12:33:29 <peter1138> you can run a single-width canal and put a dock at the end such that only the short side is accessible
12:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it could be up to the newgrf author ;)
12:34:54 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: There's even specs for flat docks, somebody just has to implement them and draw up some default graphics.
12:35:41 <peter1138> it's unfortunate that roadstops are called roadstops :p
12:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i think your "problem" can be solved with different graphics :)
12:36:15 <Flygon> You know what'd make ships useful?
12:36:35 <Flygon> A medieval pack with the ability to attack enemies...
12:36:47 <Flygon> Let's make it an OpenTTD+AoEII hybrid :D
12:38:49 <peter1138> how do you add settings these days?
12:39:30 <michi_cc> src/table/settings.ini
12:39:56 <michi_cc> Does it really need one though?
12:56:33 <oskari89> peter1138: The locks works as IRL?
12:57:31 <bolli> V453000, That looks really good :)
12:57:53 <peter1138> michi_cc, it might annoy people
12:58:50 <drac_boy> use a parameter and make it disabled by default :P
12:59:08 <oskari89> peter1138: Gates shouldn't be a problem :)
12:59:18 <oskari89> Someone just draws them :)
13:00:17 <oskari89> (default gates graphics)
13:00:53 <michi_cc> The only things that need settings are changes that would definitely break old savegames, and that will definitely not.
13:01:59 <Ammler> michi_cc: that is technical view, there is also gameplay change
13:02:00 <peter1138> oskari89, that would need a state machine
13:02:17 <peter1138> oskari89, and dealing with multiple ships
13:02:36 <peter1138> this patch just makes ships treated slopes specially
13:03:06 <michi_cc> Ammler: That's what I mean. Something that literally breaks savegames, i.e.makes it impossible to load, is not trunk material. Some ships moving up and down don't break gameplay.
13:04:51 <peter1138> not broken but changed
13:05:02 <Ammler> oh, it is basically just change of the animation? I thought, it does queue ships etc. :-)
13:05:18 <peter1138> it causes the ship to stop briefly
13:05:30 <peter1138> then it has to raise/lower, and then accelerate again
13:05:49 <Ammler> that is really no harm, what if a ship crosses?
13:05:50 <peter1138> without the patch they go through at full speed, following the slope
13:06:02 <peter1138> if the paths cross then the universe ends
13:06:07 <peter1138> i mean, it just looks a bit weird
13:06:16 <peter1138> but no different to ships crossing normally anyway
13:06:33 <michi_cc> Even if you do make a setting, have it default on, otherwise nobody will notice it.
13:06:52 <peter1138> i think no setting may be okay
13:07:07 <peter1138> as if we *did* introduce a state-machine type thing later it could be awkward
13:07:20 <peter1138> "why do ships go straight through these locks"
13:08:15 <peter1138> setting == save game bump :S
13:09:00 <oskari89> Would the state machine thing be hard to code?
13:09:44 <peter1138> not hard to code, but fairly invasive
13:09:58 <peter1138> ships have no concept of collisions, and therefore no concept of waiting
13:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> The only things that need settings are changes that would definitely break old savegames, and that will definitely not <-- so what happens with savegames where a ship is halfway up a slope?
13:10:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, good point
13:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that does not necessarily need a setting, only a savegame conversion
13:15:21 <peter1138> is it possible to understand a cocteau twins song?
13:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that the volcano that exploaded? :p
13:27:26 <peter1138> there's a 30 second sample there... heh
13:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be music for old people :p
13:29:03 *** bolli1 is now known as bolli
13:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <Supercheese> Fun, English wikipedia featured article is the London Metropolitan Railway <-- 150th jubilee?
13:54:26 <Flygon> Man, I can't wait for 2019ish
13:54:47 <Flygon> Melbourne had the worlds largest electric network around 100 years before then :B
13:55:21 <Flygon> But then we ran out of lines to electrify... barring regional lines. And the steam locos went over 100km/h. EMU's capped @ 80km/hish
13:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 80km/h-ish is perfectly fine for commuter lines
13:58:51 <Flygon> Eddi: Not for train trips that take 110 minutes with DMU's that can go 177km/h, though :p
13:59:31 <Flygon> Amusingly, the EMU carriages could be hauled @ over 80km/h by a steam locomotive
14:00:57 <Flygon> I should note, Eddi, 80km/h is the official speed limit
14:01:10 <Flygon> Probably imposed due to 191x era 1500v substation limitations
14:01:41 <Flygon> Chances are, they've been driven to 100km/h by accident, just like how current EMU's 'designed' for 115km/h have been accidentally coasted to 130km/h+ :p
14:02:00 <Flygon> But it's hard to get, due to a standard 'stopping all stations' pattern
14:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the berlin S-Bahn had similar limits, electrification started in the 1920s
14:02:35 <Flygon> And overhead wire or third rail?
14:02:44 <Flygon> Overhead here... ZERO third rail in Australia
14:02:52 <Flygon> Third rail.... I really dislike it
14:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure about the voltage, possibly 750V
14:03:11 <Flygon> It's advantages are offset by stupidly low voltage
14:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i could look that up, but.. :p
14:03:20 <Flygon> 750v is... well, bad :(
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14:03:28 <Flygon> Only good for trams imo...
14:03:28 <peter1138> weird thing about the metropolitan line is how far out of london it went
14:03:55 <Flygon> peter1138: Yeah, Australian cities were influenced heavily by that sort of design
14:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> indeed, it's 750V
14:04:36 <Flygon> eg. Melbourne-Pakenham is the same distance as Melbourne-Geelong... the former is considered a Metro line, latter is a Diesel HST line for a 'regional' city, hahaha
14:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i guess it's not that bad, as with third rail you can get "more copper" better than on catenary, so you can transmit higher currents
14:06:04 <Flygon> There's only so much current you can shove into a third rail
14:06:07 <peter1138> it ended at verney junction, which is a tiny little hamlet out in the middle of nowhere
14:06:25 <Flygon> ...specifically, your substations run out of grunt
14:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> they experimented with various systems before WWI, and it was planned to go for catenary&AC at that time, but after the plans got revived after WWI, it was reconsidered and decided for 3rd rail&DC instead
14:06:53 <Flygon> peter1138: People claim that the Hurstbridge line here terminates at a tiny village :p
14:07:16 <Flygon> I'd have expected 11kV DC
14:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really get DC that high
14:07:43 <peter1138> Flygon, pfft, that's only 23 miles
14:08:06 <Flygon> peter1138: Hurstbridge UK or Hurstbridge Victoria?
14:08:17 <Flygon> Eddi: What's the practical limit?
14:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: it was around the same time that they started electrifying main lines, which was done with 15kV AC
14:08:38 <peter1138> there is no hurstbridge uk
14:08:47 <Flygon> I'm surprised they didn't go with 15kV AC then...
14:09:16 <Flygon> peter1138: Ah, sorry. Many Australian towns are ripped from the UK.
14:09:27 <Flygon> eg. St Albans is a town in NSW, and a suburb in Vic
14:09:46 <Flygon> Either way, compared to the rest of Metro, Hurstbridge is considered 'out in the sticks'
14:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> main line electrification in prussia was not located around berlin, so there was no reason to stick to that voltage
14:09:56 <Flygon> So is Stony Point... but it's the only Diesel Metro line
14:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> mainline electrification reached berlin only in the 1980s
14:10:24 <peter1138> (of course, difference is it doesn't still go there)
14:10:25 <Flygon> In fact, Stony Point literally terminates at a beach
14:10:36 <Flygon> Ah, I was going to ask that
14:11:16 <Flygon> I should note, when most Melbourne suburban lines were built, many places trains stopped at were like Verney Junction
14:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (electrification efforts were actually enforced in the 1930s, but they didn't manage to finish before WWII)
14:11:30 <Flygon> But the city practically grew on the stations (also, trams)
14:12:04 <Flygon> Is that railway shown still used by trains, peter1138?
14:12:58 <peter1138> weird to see a disused line with tracks still
14:13:07 <Flygon> That's still freight quality here
14:13:14 <Flygon> Just slap a 25-40km/h speed restriction on it
14:13:33 <peter1138> freight goes in trucks :p
14:13:45 <Flygon> Mildura line is an example here
14:14:02 <Flygon> We haul a lot of grain
14:14:44 <Flygon> I don't like third rail
14:14:54 <Flygon> Too many practical problems with it, compared to an overhead wire
14:15:47 <Flygon> Now if we'd just build darned Double Decker trains for longer distance lines...
14:16:20 <peter1138> if only they'd fit on our lines
14:16:41 <Flygon> Early adopter syndrome?
14:17:37 <Flygon> Victoria has a similar issue. Part of the reason DD trains are so 'hard' to get here, is because we have a small loading gauge (compared to the rest of Aus)
14:18:27 <Flygon> This's made using pre-existing models for things from other networks a pain
14:19:10 <Flygon> On the upside, the gauge is large enough that when you guys sell off your BR125's, we can use them as freight locomotives to replace our 1950s ones :B
14:22:03 <Flygon> They'll catch on fire less often
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14:24:29 * drac_boy smacks flygon for such a stupid suggestion
14:24:43 <drac_boy> more like you need Class 66
14:25:22 <Flygon> I'm suggesting INTENTIONALLY buying old stock
14:25:36 <Flygon> BR125 has parts interchangable with XPT
14:26:17 <drac_boy> well BR125 is a highspeed passenger locomotive and also other thing..its well-received in preservation .. so beside "freight" would be blocked at sale time I imagine
14:26:50 <Flygon> V/Line Passenger could use them for some long distance trains
14:27:25 <Pinkbeast> I cannot imagine that if we were selling Class 43s we'd stop you using them for whatever you liked
14:27:28 <drac_boy> Class 66 on the other hand are too numerous at times and they're pretty much norm on anything to do with freights
14:27:31 <Flygon> So that they can run 160-200km/h for Swan Hill trains on the RFR tracks, instead of 80-115km/h with a giant lawnmow-, I mean, classy N-class locomotive
14:27:54 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast theres been many sale diverages/blockages through europe...even from france too...so
14:28:46 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure what France has to do with it.
14:29:22 <Flygon> Point is... it'd be nice to see the BR125 locomotives continue service around the world
14:29:31 <Pinkbeast> If we'd send the A4s and Britannias to be cut up and turned into razor blades, I cannot see any reason why we would impose any condition on sales of the Class 43
14:29:39 <Flygon> They're quite remarkable, and still are quite useful for long distance trips
14:29:55 <Pinkbeast> Flygon: well, if you ask me, they might continue service in the UK for a good few years yet, replacement programme or no. :-)
14:29:58 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast well don't look at me, I'm only going by the monthly news report from europewide areas
14:30:06 <Flygon> People won't scrap them as likely now
14:30:15 <Flygon> Due to public outcry of a British icon being scrapped
14:30:22 <Pinkbeast> drac: yes, because "Europe" is a monolith, we know
14:30:42 <Flygon> Pinkbeast: True, true... still
14:30:54 <Flygon> If they're ever phased out, It'd be nice to see them on VLP service :)
14:31:17 <Flygon> That, and theoretical forward/backward-compatiblity with the XPT with modifications
14:31:23 <Pinkbeast> I don't know that they'd go for scrap, but I think this idea that if we sold them to another country we'd insist they be used for particular purposes is laughable.
14:31:25 <drac_boy> pinkbeast...the funny thing is.. some of the EWS diesels that were only booked in uk alone .. they are left to rust very badly outdoor at least reporting a few months ago .. basically wouldn't sale them or even scrap them
14:31:40 <Flygon> Kinda funny, XPT is an advancement on the 125 design... but it's top speed is lower :P
14:32:08 <Flygon> But keeping them in operation would have kept them maintained :(
14:32:11 <Pinkbeast> Well, the gearing's right for Australian railways.
14:32:28 <Flygon> Same reason the 1950s locomotives from here refuse to die. Because they're maintained well
14:32:39 <NGC3982> OpenTTD starts lagging due to big map, with lot's of stuff on it.
14:32:50 <NGC3982> But the RAM is not full, and the CPU is barely working.
14:32:55 <Flygon> Pinkbeast: True, but it'd be nice to see it regeared to 125 specs, and run on a Victorian RFR line.
14:33:00 <Flygon> Just to see how fast it could actually go
14:33:15 <Flygon> I'll be damned if it couldn't go 230
14:34:06 <drac_boy> flygon well I'm just continuing the same topic anyway .. also on a related note SNCF ordered a lot of new locomotives even as they're moving less freights .. funny thing is most of the previous generation electrics and some diesels are just basically sitting in a full locomotives yard 0_o
14:34:12 <NGC3982> Flygon: It's not like it's unplayable. I just ..don't understand what makes my framerate drop
14:34:25 <NGC3982> Removing the trees surely increases framerate
14:34:32 <drac_boy> haven't heard any kind of peep about leasing or selling them but .. I just hope SNCF isn't "dumb" we will just have to see :|
14:34:49 <Flygon> drac_boy: How big is the standard SNCF loading gauge, compared to the UK?
14:35:06 <Pinkbeast> 230: uh well 43000 and 43001 were in top condition when they did that and weren't 40 years old
14:35:08 <Flygon> Could be useful to sell the Diesels off to practically anywhere
14:35:15 <Flygon> Electric are near useless in Australia, though
14:35:16 <Pinkbeast> Bigger. Everyone's loading gauge is bigger.
14:35:19 <drac_boy> flygon its of modest UIC gauge so I have no idea about uk's tbh
14:35:36 <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Henc, why I said I'd be damned. I know the 125 reached 241km/h.
14:35:56 <Flygon> I'm not sure what the French loading gauge is verses Victoria
14:36:24 <drac_boy> flygon at least the BB 22200 is still used on some trains but I suspect more of them are just sitting there outdoor with no regarding tho
14:36:27 <Flygon> That, and they'd need to be 1600mm convertable...
14:36:41 <drac_boy> nothing's odd like watching a single BB22200 haul only two UIC carriages for a considerable distance tho
14:36:44 <Pinkbeast> I don't, the diesel rail record is 238 km/h (albeit set by the Class 43)
14:36:58 <Flygon> drac_boy: What IS the economic benefit of letting them rust?
14:37:00 <Pinkbeast> Anyway, back to work
14:37:12 <drac_boy> flygon good question indeed
14:37:18 <Flygon> Pinkbeast: I thought the Diesel record was set by Russia in the 1970s, around 27xkm/h?...
14:37:25 <Flygon> Then again, this IS Soviet Russia...
14:37:31 <drac_boy> at least DB isn't too bad with older locomotives, still having some of the 1xx series running around
14:37:51 <drac_boy> although I do remember reading that DB scrapped a few certain ones 1-2 years ago to avoid the issues with selling them off >_<
14:38:00 <Pinkbeast> "Claimed, but no verification from an independent witness" says Wikipedia which is probably accurate.
14:38:24 <Flygon> drac_boy: To be fair, many are scrapped due to underframe issues
14:38:25 <Pinkbeast> Like City of Truro and #999
14:38:27 <drac_boy> afk for a bit anyway
14:38:39 <Flygon> Their frames wear the $#%@ out
14:39:18 <Pinkbeast> In fact #999 is claimed at 112 mph which, ha ha.
14:40:18 <Pinkbeast> Like City of Truro but more so, there just ain't enough boiler or grate.
14:40:22 <Flygon> Yeah, that's unbelievable
14:40:46 <Flygon> Even Australia barely ever reached that speed with Steam. Best that comes to mind is 16x in the 1930s in NSW
14:40:56 <Pinkbeast> I think you can just about make an argument for City of Truro in 1904
14:41:12 <Flygon> And 138km/h in Victoria... the driver reckon'd he'd have made 145-150km/h if there wasn't a timetable :B
14:43:34 <Flygon> Keeping in mind, he wasn't suppose to go over 80-115km/h (depending on sections of the track)
14:43:50 <Flygon> He and the fireman only did it because the speed recorder ran out of paper :p
14:44:14 <Flygon> And it was an interstate express train that took it's last load of water for the trip...
14:46:10 <Flygon> I'm getting very tired and ranty
14:46:13 <Flygon> have a great day, peeps :3
15:09:42 <NGC3982> I was just googling trough some Raspberry Pi specs
15:09:56 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd
15:10:04 <peter1138> what do you want it for?
15:10:05 <NGC3982> And i was thinking about the discussion we had in this channel regarding using an RPI as a dedicated OpenTTD server.
15:10:34 <NGC3982> The only thing i see not working is the RAM, and finding a RPI based OS that supports the currect builds.
15:10:44 <NGC3982> I guess the latter is not really a problem.
15:10:55 <peter1138> NGC3982, raspbian is debian. it even comes with openttd.
15:11:00 <peter1138> (although it'll be a release)
15:11:11 * Belugas is doing charge back report. with signature. He does hate that kind of assigment
15:11:17 <peter1138> later models have 512MB, although some is shared for the gpu
15:11:34 <NGC3982> Afaik, that's not nerly enough?
15:11:47 <peter1138> for a moderate openttd server, that's more than plenty
15:12:32 <peter1138> i think it's still running X heh
15:13:02 <peter1138> 390MB free after stopping that, heh
15:14:07 <NGC3982> Then, my calculations are poop.
15:14:14 <NGC3982> I need to order 2 or 3 of them
15:14:23 <NGC3982> One for the arcade machine, and one for OpenTTD
15:14:34 <NGC3982> And one for future ..stuff.
15:14:37 <peter1138> cpu-wise it mightn't be enough for a larger map
15:14:48 *** dihedral has joined #openttd
15:15:00 <NGC3982> My atom230 can handle it without a charm
15:15:07 <peter1138> also the ethernet is connected via usb, so that's overhead
15:15:19 <NGC3982> And there is no worser CPU then the Atom230.
15:15:21 <peter1138> which is considerably faster
15:15:48 <NGC3982> Eh, wait. No? There is a RJ45 Ethernet connection?
15:16:34 <NGC3982> Oh, you mean on the actual card? :)
15:17:00 <NGC3982> What is USB? The Ethernet bus?
15:17:45 <NGC3982> Yes, and ethernet is ethernet
15:18:02 <NGC3982> I notice an ethernet connection via RJ45, and two USB connections via USB.
15:20:43 <peter1138> hmm, actually it's not, dunno where i heard that
15:21:23 <peter1138> anyway, it's not a pc :p
15:22:04 <peter1138> i would think it's a bit slow for emulating, but i dunno
15:22:19 <NGC3982> A simple google tells me that the unit (B) uses 2*USB-connectors, and 1*RJ45 connector.
15:22:28 <NGC3982> If the bus uses something else, out of my league.
15:23:09 <NGC3982> peter1138: Yes, that's the thing. I guess the current model is barely on the line for "more professional" OTTD server maintenance.
15:23:24 <NGC3982> Especially when i wish to host several of them at once.
15:24:27 <NGC3982> Yes, as i wrote: "More professional", as in serious servers with their own domains and continuus administration.
15:26:12 <NGC3982> I guess i have to stick to small form factor PCs a bit longer.
15:28:49 * peter1138 ponders setting up a cross-compiler for it
15:30:37 <peter1138> building for a different target than the host
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15:40:12 <WardH> I was wondering if its possible to change the industry a station delivers to, when theres more than 1 industry that requires the same resource in range
15:40:35 <WardH> or even balance it out between the two, I assume right now it just uses the closest industry
15:44:25 <Belugas> the beast, not the beauty...
15:45:54 <NGC3982> WardH: I'm not entirely sure, but i do not think you can actively change what industry of the two, that should handle the resource.
15:46:21 <WardH> ok, then Im gonna have to build 2 stations and place them just right :p
15:46:22 <NGC3982> Except, if you are transporting the newly created resource from the industry.
15:46:30 <NGC3982> Yes, i would do that.
15:46:40 <NGC3982> I did not find any documentation on this, though.
15:46:57 <WardH> doing a scenario where you have to supply 2 steelmills with x amount of ore
15:47:17 <WardH> so I in my hubris just built 1 big station to service them both :p
15:47:47 <NGC3982> If you export steel from one of them, that one will use most of the delivered ore
15:57:47 <Belugas> 1554.97$ charge back restored. found a bug on my system
16:00:21 <peter1138> anyone know if ISR source is available?
16:01:15 <NGC3982> Belugas: Charge back due to a system bug? :)
16:03:26 <NGC3982> I notice that inflation fucks up big time when playing a 1800-ish > 2100-ish game.
16:04:09 <NGC3982> Or well, it's not incorrect. Just barely playable. Simple engines are up to billion GBP prices.
16:04:16 <peter1138> if you mean the disparity between costs and cargo income, that is b design
16:04:39 <peter1138> most sets are designed for no inflation
16:05:02 <NGC3982> We started 1832 with UKRS2+
16:05:16 <peter1138> ukrs2 should be used with inflation off
16:05:37 <NGC3982> That explains it. Thanks. :3
16:05:52 <NGC3982> Too bad we didn't figure that out two hundred years ago
16:08:18 <Belugas> NGC3982: nope. bank asked to verify a few payments proof. difference between request and actual data. the difference pointed out to a bug, mainly different process between debit and credit, where credit slip was overwritten by following debit transaction
16:09:22 <Belugas> luckily, signatures are safe and intact. just had to forge back the lost credit slips. still, need to patch hole ASAP
16:09:41 <Belugas> 3500 and counting POS stations to fix
16:19:50 * peter1138 ponders making a test grf
16:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> anyone know if ISR source is available? <-- planetmaker is the expert in these things
16:34:54 <peter1138> everyone on that devzone thing is hg :-(
16:37:29 <NGC3982> Simply creating a new track next to the current circle system increased operating profit with 40%
16:37:40 <NGC3982> Train queues are the worst thing ever.
16:38:04 <peter1138> //,.....,.......5F // random bits - not supported by OpenTTD
16:44:00 <peter1138> difficult to follow this
16:45:39 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
16:52:16 <peter1138> nml doesn't do stations does it?
16:54:25 <peter1138> hmm, don't appear to have ukwaypoints source any more
16:55:29 <peter1138> 0 * 22 00 04 01 04 00 08 "DFLTDFLTDFLTDFLT"
16:55:47 <peter1138> not much in the way of comments though :p
16:59:53 <peter1138> hmm, i wonder what is actually different between these buffers... v0.1 and v0.2
17:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> ground sprites? action14?
17:03:48 <peter1138> and that... accounts for
17:03:55 <peter1138> adding "-2007" to the action 8
17:04:44 <peter1138> result png is exactly the same
17:05:57 <peter1138> i don't think these waypoints are on bananas though
17:17:04 <peter1138> right, i should... make... some graphics :S
17:35:58 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
17:44:20 <peter1138> hmm, how can i get grfcodec to output the header?
18:09:36 <peter1138> Signal: Segmentation fault (11)
18:20:37 <MG> Currently I'm playing some multiplayer maps with 1.2.3
18:21:24 <MG> Sadly the chat messages stay forever and are covering the left lower corner of my window...is this a bug?
18:21:42 <MG> or did i forget some advanced settings?
18:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> did you press the key left of 1?
18:23:32 <MG> even if it's running for two hours without any real chat, the "player connected" messages are still displayed
18:25:22 <frosch123> what does "setting network_chat_timeout" say in the console?
18:27:31 <MG> oh that was the solution :D
18:27:54 <frosch123> what value was it set to?
18:28:00 <MG> increased the value while dealing with connection-timeout problems some days ago
18:28:16 <peter1138> right, random trigger, where you are
18:28:36 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 18.2041666667
18:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "petert1138" is a scary thought :p
18:35:39 *** Maedhros has joined #openttd
18:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a rare visit
18:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> what brings you to these parts of the tt-verse?
18:37:19 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Maedhros was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 50 weeks, 5 days, 2 hours, 47 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Maedhros> Yexo: so i did :)
18:37:37 <Maedhros> hah, that's a lot longer than I'd thought!
18:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't quite manage 3 years :p
18:38:10 <Markk> MG: Type "pet" and then press the tab-key (the one that has |<--- --->| on it, between caps lock and 1).
18:38:16 <__ln__> yeah, try again -- see you in three years
18:38:18 <Markk> MG: Magic will happend.
18:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 1: tsb-complete nicks, 2: ?, 3: profit
18:39:35 <Markk> Tsb complete nicks ftw!
18:40:05 <Maedhros> it seems like I've missed quite a few new things while I've been gone
18:40:16 <Maedhros> like the release of version 1.x!
18:41:00 <Maedhros> and yet everything that I like about OpenTTD is reassuringly similar :)
18:41:05 <peter1138> well that's annoying
18:41:18 <peter1138> didn't work, reloaded, and it worked
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24902 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-01-10 18:45:23 UTC)
18:45:33 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 180 changes by logi
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> danish - 11 changes by Elias
18:45:36 <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:56:55 <Belugas> don't tell anyone, even more if at job!
18:58:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24903 trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp (2013-01-10 18:58:22 UTC)
18:58:29 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Cached station animation triggers were only set when removing parts of a station.
19:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 minutes before nightly... bold move :p
19:01:29 <Belugas> midnight, not nightly... ppfffff
19:01:56 <Belugas> coming back from the oblivion, as it seems :)
19:02:57 <frosch123> the nightly will be done before the testing build for 24903
19:03:27 <frosch123> the nightly started faster than it could trigger the test build :p
19:03:46 <Belugas> #Screaming for Vengeance!
19:04:05 * Belugas likes a little boost for end of day work session
19:04:12 <Maedhros> Belugas: indeed so - my phd is all finished now, so i'm slowly emerging back into the world :p
19:04:51 <frosch123> phd finished? does that mean no more time for ottd?
19:05:29 <peter1138> anyway, that little bug explains why my cargo triggers weren't triggering :p
19:05:51 <frosch123> yay, triggering triggers :)
19:06:11 <Maedhros> frosch123: exactly the opposite :)
19:06:24 <frosch123> triggering the trigger triggered...
19:06:34 <frosch123> Maedhros: do you believe so? :p
19:07:10 <frosch123> you never have more time "next year" :)
19:08:12 <Belugas> Avoid saying "trigger the trigger" in the USA
19:08:56 <frosch123> Belugas: daylength patch
19:11:21 * Belugas looks for the RealLife repo to apply the patch
19:13:35 <frosch123> teaser for tt-forums?
19:14:01 <peter1138> seeing as all the other grfs get the RA2 stuff wrong
19:22:11 <peter1138> hmm, should all work as the other bits are the same as for animation triggers
19:22:19 <peter1138> only need to test the PBS bit
19:22:57 <V453000> I wonder how many times will it take me to realize that it really is a bad idea to compile a new version of a newgrf when the newgrf is loaded in a running unpaused game
19:23:22 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
19:23:40 <peter1138> the file isn't closed
19:25:14 <V453000> well yeah but openttd will crash :D
19:25:33 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
19:25:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
19:25:49 <peter1138> unless the file is closed & reopened then it will still use the old one
19:26:19 <frosch123> do windows file system support unlinking files?
19:26:23 <peter1138> right... where is path reservation done?
19:26:31 <frosch123> or do the files remain in the directory till closure?
19:27:12 <frosch123> likely in train_cmd
19:27:38 <frosch123> maybe look for the level crossing
19:27:44 <V453000> the old one isnt there, it gets overwritten upon compile :)
19:27:47 <frosch123> it also has some trigger on reservation
19:28:03 <peter1138> V453000, cos that's not how it works on other OSes
19:28:20 <V453000> I usually pause teh game and reload_newgrfs, but sometimes I forget :>
19:28:32 <frosch123> pretty sure it also works like that on DOS
19:30:15 <peter1138> there's an UpdateLevelCrossing() in *UN*reserverailtrack :p
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19:32:44 <peter1138> Trigger should work on the whole platform
19:33:00 <frosch123> the whole platform is reserved
19:33:07 <peter1138> yeah but tile-by-tile
19:33:22 <frosch123> only trigger it on the north tile then?
19:33:47 <frosch123> does it also trigger when a train enters a station without pbs?
19:33:54 <frosch123> by reserving the tiles under the train
19:33:56 <peter1138> i train reserves platform (using PBS)
19:35:02 <peter1138> i suppose i could make it a tile-only trigger
19:37:39 <frosch123> are the some random bits shared between the tiles of a platform trigger?
19:37:49 <frosch123> hmm likely wouldn't matter either
19:38:08 <frosch123> but the non-pbs reservation should not trigger it then
19:38:22 <frosch123> might look weird if the platform changes following the train upon entering :p
19:40:24 <Supercheese> I dunno, people see the train and begin walking towards the point of entry as the train pulls into the station
19:44:10 <peter1138> that code is only called for NPF :p
19:45:22 <peter1138> or seems to be the case :S
19:48:57 <peter1138> and then it only reserves the first tile. what.
19:50:22 <peter1138> ReserveRailStationPlation... yeah
19:50:58 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
19:55:12 <peter1138> well then i can use TA_PLATFORM still
20:10:01 <frosch123> is there no anim trigger for platform reservervation?
20:10:17 <peter1138> that would be more useful, you'd've thought
20:10:44 <DDR> OK, all is back to it's natural order. From only having 1/5th of NCG's profit last morning, I now have 5x his profit this morning.
20:37:41 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
20:59:01 <drac_boy> doing ok..just looking online a bit now :/
21:06:23 <peter1138> 00 // first bit to rerandomise
21:06:29 <peter1138> oh, that's right, sorry
21:06:59 <peter1138> not entirely sure if waiting triggers works
21:07:11 <peter1138> mainly because i'm not sure how it's meant to work
21:07:33 <frosch123> well, they are only stored at the station
21:07:50 <frosch123> so, if you mix parts with different triggers, it will likely not work
21:08:28 <frosch123> so, multiple triggers for stations are kind of broken by design
21:08:45 <frosch123> not as bad as triggers for the "related vehicle" though :p
21:08:59 <peter1138> it's all a bit messy
21:09:07 <frosch123> random action is totally broken :)
21:09:09 <peter1138> as long as its deterministic, i don't care :D
21:09:16 <frosch123> well, except for houses and industries
21:09:22 <frosch123> csabo reinvented it or so :p
21:09:38 <frosch123> csaboka was the name right?
21:10:35 <peter1138> yeah, didn't he join us briefly before seeing it wasn't much better :p
21:11:15 <frosch123> he made the grass density on tree tiles
21:11:48 <frosch123> kind of remade his first ttdp patch into his first ottd patch
21:12:04 <frosch123> in ottd 0.5 trees always had 3/3 grass only
21:12:14 <frosch123> in 0.6 they gained 0/3 .. 2/3
21:16:07 <peter1138> hmm, yeah, the reservation trigger is called for each tile when not reserved
21:16:52 <peter1138> i guess it *is* reserved
21:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> well yeah but openttd will crash :D <-- i frequently have this problem as well. recompile grf, forget to reload_newgrfs, unpause => BAM!
21:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if i made a report on flyspray...
21:21:13 <frosch123> newer nml unlink before rewriting afaik
21:21:15 <V453000> I didnt even dare :D I didnt consider it that unexpectedly broken
21:21:26 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just increase your spritecache size
21:21:41 <frosch123> and make sure all are loaded
21:22:09 <frosch123> e.g. by clicking through all sprites in the alignment gui
21:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: because it's a crash!
21:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no program should ever crash on anything that the user does
21:26:05 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i don't think changing data files underneath us counts
21:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well if it disturbes newgrf development, it's rather serious
21:29:25 <michi_cc> peter1138: Doxygen for StationRandomTrigger and TriggerStationRandomisation is missing and has to be updated for TryReserveRailTrack, but otherwise patch looks nice.
21:29:39 <peter1138> oh right, doxygen again :p
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21:39:35 <frosch123> hmm, mart3p, Celestar, Maedhros, ...
21:39:53 <frosch123> is there some ottd reunion going on?
21:52:14 <frosch123> did the end of the world remind you what really matters in live? :p
21:52:56 <peter1138> planetmaker, is motion_counter going to be updated?
21:53:12 <NGC3982> You know what i hate?
21:53:33 <NGC3982> When the damn towns don't change rating
21:53:57 <NGC3982> Even when i plant the bloody Taiga forest around it.
21:54:01 <frosch123> you got that the wrong way around; it's they who hate you
21:54:24 <frosch123> anyway, it's only the first tree on a tile that matters
21:54:34 <frosch123> so first bulldoze all trees in range of the town
21:54:38 <NGC3982> And that my personal inflation fuckup makes bribing impossible.
21:54:46 <NGC3982> Seriosly? It's that easy?
21:55:02 <frosch123> all game mechanics are simple if you know how to exploit them
21:55:14 <frosch123> ottd is a _hard_ game for someone who plays for the first time
21:55:40 * NGC3982 has been playing for years and still has no clue of this.
21:55:57 <planetmaker> peter1138, might or might not. But is there a real need for it? I'm sure it was a concious decision
21:56:04 <frosch123> that rule applies to all games unless they are mainly affected by human opponents
21:56:09 <peter1138> well it's... incorrect!
21:56:20 <peter1138> and someone wanted a 3-cycle animation, which glitches with 0..15
21:56:37 <Supercheese> eGRVTS uses a 3-frame animation
21:56:42 <Supercheese> I was borrowing the sprites
21:57:01 <NGC3982> frosch123: It only made it worse.
21:57:40 <frosch123> usually you can always get it to "good" to build a station that way
21:58:08 <NGC3982> I can't get it past "Very poor"
21:59:46 <Supercheese> the formula of bulldoze many trees then replant has always worked for me
22:00:03 <NGC3982> How much do you bulldoze?
22:00:10 <V453000> use magic dozer if you play with towns :) or use trees
22:00:15 <Supercheese> more than enough :P
22:00:24 <planetmaker> well, I guess we could change motion_counter to return var (0x46 & 0xFFFFFF00) >> 8. But I'd like to talk at least with yexo or Hirundo about that
22:00:29 <NGC3982> V453000: It's multiplayer.
22:01:01 <frosch123> start a new company, and make that one remove the trees
22:01:16 <planetmaker> I see the point that your usecase is kinda broken frequently, Supercheese - which certainly is not intended
22:01:20 <frosch123> but don't tell anyone, i told you that
22:01:41 <NGC3982> frosch123: That's cheating. :P
22:01:44 <planetmaker> dirty, bad, frosch123 ;-)
22:02:07 <frosch123> NGC3982: at least a whole screen
22:02:17 <frosch123> water sucks ofc, there are no trees
22:02:21 <V453000> im going to ban frosch123 the moment he joins our server :>
22:02:58 <frosch123> i never joined your public server :)
22:03:26 <planetmaker> V453000, his method won't work... he can't make a new company on the PS :D
22:03:28 <V453000> we have more than just public server :)
22:03:57 <V453000> but ps usually has magic dozer when we use towns
22:05:09 <NGC3982> Magic bulldozer on a multiplayer server?
22:05:35 <V453000> ever heard of cooperation? :)
22:05:51 <NGC3982> Yes, and i actually joined once
22:05:58 <NGC3982> And it was actually -your- game.
22:06:17 <NGC3982> "Who the hell built a bus station here?"
22:06:33 <frosch123> you got banned for building a bus station? :)
22:06:52 <NGC3982> No, not banned. I joined a co-op thinking it was somethis completely different
22:07:00 <NGC3982> They encouraged me to stay and watch, though.
22:07:23 <Supercheese> I dunno about the motion_counter thing, it seems to work fine with eGRVTS, or at least no one has yet complained
22:07:58 <NGC3982> If i remember correctly, i didnt. I was too embarrassed. :3
22:08:04 <Supercheese> the 3-frame animated horses are nice :3
22:08:11 <V453000> well there have to be -some- rules when you cooperate with others :) we have games where you can do literally anything too, though
22:08:27 <V453000> also being embarassed is wrong :) no reason
22:09:06 <Supercheese> I'd play multiplayer, but there's that pesky max-grf-limit
22:10:03 <NGC3982> I just killed the server
22:10:17 <V453000> not our server I hope
22:10:41 <NGC3982> DDR: I'm sorry. I managed to kill the server :/.
22:10:46 <peter1138> i forgot about cargo translation
22:12:28 <peter1138> would TranslateRefitMask() in newgrf.cpp do the job?
22:12:52 <frosch123> it works after reservation phase
22:12:56 <frosch123> and stationprops are in activation
22:13:54 <peter1138> type B or type A... what
22:14:20 <frosch123> ah, yeah, just call it for grf version 7
22:14:26 <frosch123> keep it unchanged below
22:14:31 <peter1138> type B == untranslated?
22:14:48 <frosch123> A is bit (translated if ctt present)
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22:16:57 <frosch123> it's basically what GetCargoTranslation does when setting the last param to 'false'
22:17:04 <frosch123> but that is actually a nop for grf version < 7
22:17:21 <frosch123> and 'false' and 'true' are the same for grf version >= 7
22:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: was that not grfv8?
22:22:46 <peter1138> "With GRF version 7 and above, the interpretation of bits changes. Instead of climate-dependent cargo slot numbers (type B), you have to set the bits of climate-independent cargo ID (type A)."
22:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ah well... i know nothing :p
22:23:50 <planetmaker> technically the enum misses doxygen, also when it's pretty obvious
22:24:03 <frosch123> + TriggerStationAnimation(st, st->xy, SAT_TRAIN_LOADS); <- isn't the st->xy wrong there? isn't it a platform anim trigger as well?
22:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> in order to understand recursion, you first need to understand recursion
22:24:45 <peter1138> frosch123, i think so as well
22:25:10 <peter1138> planetmaker, oh yeah :S
22:28:09 <peter1138> frosch123, it should crash if st->xv isn't a rail station tile...
22:31:09 <frosch123> should changing a shared bit mark the whole station dirty?
22:31:54 <frosch123> hmm, makes no sense anyway
22:33:15 <peter1138> hmm, looks like SAT_CARGO_TAKEN was not done by me
22:33:20 <peter1138> which means it missed it :S
22:33:27 <peter1138> damn half-finished patches
22:35:00 <Gruff> Any idea folks how I can get TTD to work on Windows 7.... I keep getting messages saying this system does not support full screen and then just a blank looking dos screen :(
22:35:16 <peter1138> hmm, i wonder if that blows up with overlong trains
22:35:51 <Wolf01> Gruff, try dosbox or use OpenTTD instead
22:35:52 <drac_boy> gruff you need the patch
22:36:29 <frosch123> you assume he really means ttd? :)
22:36:59 <frosch123> Gruff: try setting fullscreen_bpp to 32 in openttd.cfg
22:37:33 <peter1138> blank looking dos screen eh
22:37:53 <Gruff> ok I tried open but wouldn't know what "patch" I would need and how all that works (getting old lol)
22:38:14 <Gruff> yes Peter a blank dos screen and the annoying message :(
22:38:37 <planetmaker> Gruff, unless you try to start openttd, your issue is off-topic here :-)
22:38:59 <planetmaker> in the case of openttd, do you have like crash.log crash.dmp or so ?
22:39:51 <frosch123> who said it crashed?
22:42:01 <planetmaker> let's start easy: where did you get from the programme you like to start?
22:42:21 <NGC3982> When playing with breakdowns, is there any reason other then estethics, using buoy's instead of ship depots?
22:42:42 <peter1138> interesting, seems turning around an overlong train now makes it leave the platform
22:42:50 <peter1138> so it still triggers on the right tile
22:43:11 <frosch123> NGC3982: ship depots block the path for opponents
22:43:37 <frosch123> peter1138: i think that always was the case
22:43:44 <planetmaker> or can you provide a screenshot, Gruff ?
22:43:51 <frosch123> NGC3982: also some time ago ships always left depots towards south or so
22:44:08 <peter1138> frosch123, i'm sure it used to just turn the train around. and then cause crashes when v->tile wasn't a station tile
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22:50:09 <Gruff> Never mind I give up. Enjoy the game folks I used to love it. Take care and thanks for trying to help :)
22:50:32 <peter1138> Gruff, you give up easily
22:50:33 <planetmaker> well. if you can't answer any of our questions, we indeed can't help, I'm afraid
22:50:49 <peter1138> Gruff, if you get a DOS window, it sounds like you're trying to play good old original TTD
22:50:50 <planetmaker> we have no functional crystal balls
22:51:26 <glx> dos version can't run on 64 bits windows
22:51:46 <peter1138> Gruff, it's got a few more things, but i like to think the essence is still there
22:52:53 <glx> and windows version can't run without ttdpatch since at least winXP IIRC
22:53:46 <Gruff> Oh I will try that then Pete. Thanks
22:54:33 <Gruff> I've been trying to get it to work for 2 days mind.... I'm not the best on a computer but I do love the game
22:55:05 <glx> very old games on modern OS is often problematic
22:55:35 <planetmaker> that's why I asked whether you run openttd or something else... :x
22:55:46 <planetmaker> I give up. Good night
22:56:04 <planetmaker> who then would which programme *you* try to start?!
22:56:20 <planetmaker> who then would know where you got the programme from you try to start?!
22:56:31 <planetmaker> who then could make a screenshot of the empty window?!
22:56:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24904 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-01-10 22:56:49 UTC)
22:56:56 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r22746): "Train loads/unloads cargo" station animation triggers on individual platform
22:57:04 <NGC3982> glx: Actually, i would say: Yes, it used to.
22:57:23 <NGC3982> glx: But Windows 7 have proven to run old PC games like magic.
22:57:29 <NGC3982> Or at least very easily fixed.
22:57:36 * drac_boy is still waiting for someone to progress on updating that other openttd build with working dos network stacks
22:57:36 <NGC3982> Not related to the discussion, that is.
22:57:55 <Gruff> planet you sound like you just want to be rude. No need peter is a nice person that understands I'm not clued up on this computer talk.... or whatever.
22:58:33 <Gruff> Oh and by the way.... Pete I love you that link is working great :)
22:58:54 <Supercheese> "let's start easy: where did you get from the programme you like to start?"
22:58:57 <Supercheese> how is that rude?
22:59:01 <planetmaker> first entry on ignore. One finally after a long time again
22:59:32 <Supercheese> (also I don't think that question was ever given a response...)
22:59:49 <peter1138> Gruff, you're welcome :)
23:00:43 <NGC3982> Hey i'm Gruff, i'm not so Gruff - Aaaans we're the Game Gruff's.
23:01:07 <V453000> those new locks look terrible, sorry :(
23:01:42 <peter1138> i've not changed the looks!
23:02:03 <NGC3982> peter1138: I love that "That's not meant to happen" video.
23:02:11 <V453000> no but the way how the ship moves looks broken to me
23:02:14 <NGC3982> Bouncy glitches and stuff
23:14:09 <NGC3982> In the Sailing Ships NewGRF, did i just notice the boat rising a bit over water level when unloading goods?
23:14:30 <Supercheese> As it gets loaded, it gets heavier and sinks down a pixel, no?
23:14:35 <Supercheese> vice versa for unloaded
23:14:53 <Supercheese> FISH does that too
23:15:00 <NGC3982> I love how you guys think of everything.
23:15:03 <Supercheese> and perhaps even newships
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23:50:52 <NGC3982> I just noticed how extreme a FIRS Coal>Metal>Eng.Sup>Coal system can be with boats.
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continue to next day ⏵
