IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-11
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00:35:57 <NGC3982> Well, you can look at it first hand
00:58:49 * Supercheese adds a horse & rider to Eyecandy road vehicles
00:59:48 <NGC3982> DDR: You damn Canadian.
01:00:01 <NGC3982> Deprive me of my sleep like this
01:04:10 <drac_boy> heh Supercheese do the horses have a warning triangle flag draped over the back to comply with "low speed road vehicle" laws? :P
01:04:23 <Supercheese> No, they expire before those laws are enacted ;)
01:04:35 <Supercheese> of course, you can enable 'vehicles never expire'
01:04:41 <Supercheese> in which case, no :P
01:06:13 <Supercheese> Currently I only have the horse, I need to draw the rider on
01:06:13 <drac_boy> actually supercheese the law never expired
01:06:24 <Supercheese> No, the horses expire
01:06:30 <Supercheese> as in, are no longer available for purchase
01:06:30 <drac_boy> anything that has to run on paved public road at low speed has to have the triangle warning
01:06:57 <Supercheese> These are currently set to expire sometime around 1930-1940
01:07:06 <Supercheese> i.e. removed from purchase list
01:07:57 <Supercheese> The little Newstations people shall be of great inspiration
01:11:14 <Supercheese> blarg, problem is the horse is 3 px wide, and the Newstations people are 2px wide
01:11:23 <Supercheese> cannot half-pixel ><
01:13:54 <DDR> Hey, guys, is cargo delivery rate calculated as distance between industries or distance between the station tiles where I picked it up and dropped it off?
01:14:03 <Supercheese> Distance between Station Signs
01:14:05 <Supercheese> strangely enough :S
01:14:26 <DDR> Excuse me while I go re-sign this station.
01:14:29 <drac_boy> I never cared much for that aspect :)
01:14:38 <Supercheese> once you know the game mechanics, exploits abound
01:15:22 * Supercheese wonders if the station sign thing is mentioned on the wiki anywhere
01:16:06 <Supercheese> "Distance is measured between the name-labeled tiles of the stations, not from the industries or by vehicle distance traveled."
01:16:50 <DDR> I was looking on the wiki page, but I missed that line.
01:17:53 <DDR> Oh, interesting, so theoretically a diagonal train makes more money than a straight one.
01:18:27 <Supercheese> all sorts of time-warpy stuff happens with diagonal trains
01:20:51 <DDR> Second question, does cargo only start depreciating in value once you pick it up?
01:21:14 <Supercheese> only while loaded in vehicles, yes
01:21:54 <DDR> Third question: Does station rating have any impact on how much cargo there is to pick up, if there is no competitor?
01:22:14 <drac_boy> ddr as long as its over 50% I doubt it
01:23:01 <DDR> Thanks. That pretty much clears it up for me.
01:28:44 <Supercheese> Station rating determines how much goodies you get from industries/houses
01:28:51 <Supercheese> If you have 100% rating, you get all the stoof
01:28:59 <Supercheese> if you have less, less stoof fer you
01:29:39 <Supercheese> how much of the goodies*
02:07:12 <Supercheese> the horse & rider looks amazing, if I do say so myself
03:35:53 <Supercheese> Note that the current "English" is American English, and that British/Australian Englishes are valid translations
03:40:45 <Supercheese> e.g. Mail truck --> Post truck
03:49:42 <Supercheese> of course there's very few GMT -8 folks in here :P
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05:47:07 <Supercheese> Man, code is so easy, it's the graphics that are tough to produce
05:54:03 <Supercheese> even sound effects are way easier than graphics @_@
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06:06:39 * Supercheese seems to be talking to himself
06:21:19 <Supercheese> Hah, crashed OTTD
06:21:43 <Supercheese> Although it is my modified version, have to see if it crashes in trunk
06:22:15 <Supercheese> Oh, I tried to import a stereo .wav, whoops, needs to be mono
06:22:45 <Supercheese> NML let me, but OTTD complained :P
06:36:07 * Supercheese is very glad the 64kb sfx limit was removed
06:43:23 <Flygon> 64kb should be enough for anyone!
06:43:43 <Supercheese> You ever made a grf with sound effects?
06:43:56 <Supercheese> That limit sucked
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06:43:58 <Flygon> Except for that time that the guys that ported Cannon Fodder to the Game Boy Color and decided to add an FMV intro...
06:44:03 <Flygon> And I was making a bad joke :p
06:44:56 <Flygon> (that FMV intro is absurd... I can't believe they found peeps willing to write tight-knit video codecs for the Z80 in 2001...)
06:45:32 <Flygon> (even worse when you consider needing PCM support, and the ability to modify the palette's on-the-fly without issues @_@)
06:46:59 <Supercheese> let's see, what time is it down under anyway... GMT +someodd
06:47:21 <Supercheese> So, like, 8-11 AM Jan 11 is my guess
06:47:41 <Supercheese> didn't add nearly enough hours
06:48:02 <Supercheese> although you guys have a few timezones there no?
06:48:17 <Flygon> In Winter, it's just 3
06:48:21 <Flygon> In Summer, around 5...
06:48:30 <Flygon> And this isn't counting our islands
06:48:32 <Supercheese> Continental US has 4, not sure how DST bollockses that up
06:48:34 <Flygon> And other claimed territories
06:48:51 * Supercheese wonders how to conjugate the verb "bollocks"
06:48:57 <Supercheese> presuming it can be made a verb :P
06:53:31 <peter1138> you bollocksed that up
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06:57:16 <Supercheese> Oh poo, triggers are not possible for objects in random switches
06:57:28 <Supercheese> newobjects that is
06:58:48 <Supercheese> I dunno how to say it in NFO-speak
06:58:49 <peter1138> what would it trigger on?
06:58:56 <Supercheese> 256 ticks I guess
06:59:26 <Supercheese> Usecase: I have seagull newobjects, I'd like them to emit different sounds randomly
06:59:46 <Supercheese> I presume that requires re-randomization
07:00:00 <Supercheese> could easily be wrong
07:00:03 <peter1138> triggers can't emit sounds
07:00:11 <peter1138> they just change the random bits
07:00:19 <peter1138> which can change graphics
07:00:40 <Supercheese> I currently return a randomly chosen sound effect at a certain animation frame
07:00:46 <peter1138> if there is a sound effect callback then that can use the random bits to change the sound
07:01:00 <peter1138> oh god this game is too complex!
07:01:02 <Supercheese> but of course that sound effect is the same each time, just randomly chosen at buildtime
07:01:18 <Supercheese> same per tile anyhow
07:01:31 <peter1138> yes you could determine that sound effect based on the random bits
07:02:01 <peter1138> Supercheese, submit it as a feature request, tileloop trigger :)
07:02:01 <Supercheese> I was hoping to have it re-randomize each time it hits that certain animation frame
07:02:49 <Supercheese> second report from this .grf, it seems :P
07:03:12 <peter1138> well there might be some other way of doing it
07:03:19 <Supercheese> that's what I'm wondering
07:04:22 <Supercheese> anim_control seems to already have triggers
07:04:41 <peter1138> animation control has random bits in var 10
07:05:01 <Supercheese> so it does, now to wrangle some code
07:05:14 <peter1138> is that the callback that makes the sound?
07:05:32 <Supercheese> return sound in high byte it seems
07:05:49 <peter1138> all animation callbacks, heh
07:06:09 <peter1138> next animation frame can do random bits too
07:06:14 <peter1138> but not mentioned for objects
07:06:17 <Supercheese> that's what I was using
07:06:19 <peter1138> could be added probably
07:06:40 <Supercheese> it seems to be mentioned
07:06:52 <Supercheese> maybe I was Doing It Wrong™
07:07:22 <peter1138> it's specifically not mentioned for objects
07:07:31 <Supercheese> Seems to be mentioned in NML
07:08:11 <Supercheese> Hmm, the problem is how to make use of the random bits
07:08:40 <peter1138> treat it as a switch case
07:09:06 <Supercheese> so no random switches
07:09:43 <Supercheese> Oh I have to set a flag first
07:12:42 <Supercheese> what's the range of the random stuff
07:14:28 <Supercheese> and furthermore, are the random bits re-randomized every so often?
07:15:19 <peter1138> you get a full 32 bits of random data
07:15:24 <peter1138> you probably won't need them
07:15:33 <peter1138> they're not stored, so they're different every time its called
07:16:06 <peter1138> won't need all of them, rather
07:16:41 <Supercheese> Jeez, 32 bits, that's like, a zillion
07:16:51 <peter1138> 4.2 thousand million
07:17:01 <peter1138> how many different sounds did you want?
07:17:21 <Supercheese> I can easily do more or less if it's convenient
07:17:32 <Supercheese> I'm just grabbing random snippets from a 1 min seagull .wav
07:17:40 <peter1138> mask with & 3 for 4 options
07:17:50 <peter1138> or mod with % 3 for 3 options
07:18:22 <peter1138> mask is more efficient, but only good for power of 2s
07:18:28 <Supercheese> probably gonna use mod
07:18:56 <peter1138> that might be considered micro-optimising though :p
07:19:05 <Supercheese> as long as it works
07:20:34 <Supercheese> I have this snip of code from the NML specs, I don't even know how it works but it does :P
07:21:10 <peter1138> had caps lock on :p
07:21:36 <peter1138> hmm, nobody commented after my lock video
07:21:44 <Supercheese> well, we commented on IRC
07:21:46 <Supercheese> but not in the thread
07:21:59 <peter1138> oh, i went to bed after it :p
07:22:13 <Supercheese> It looks weird with the default lock graphics, but with TTDPatch-esque locks it'll look great
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07:24:07 <peter1138> what's the difference?
07:24:18 <Supercheese> Don't TTDP locks look different?
07:24:24 <Supercheese> than the ones in your video
07:24:32 <peter1138> mb's picture is a bit more detailed on the sides, but it's basically the same
07:25:13 <Supercheese> Well, to rephrase, with Better™ lock graphics, it will look great
07:25:39 <Supercheese> and even without, it is still better than current OTTD behavior
07:25:49 <Supercheese> an improvement overall, for sure
07:26:59 <Supercheese> can't make the lock gates shut/open based on ship presence though, can you
07:27:55 <peter1138> currently there are no gates, heh
07:28:03 <Supercheese> Theoretical gates ;)
07:28:03 <peter1138> but yeah, still the blocking other ships issue
07:28:27 <Supercheese> oh you could shove multiple ships in the locks at once, hah
07:28:39 <Supercheese> ships are just noclip-fests aren't they?
07:28:50 <Supercheese> collision detection? bah, humbug
07:29:02 <Supercheese> Seems Firefox 18 is available?
07:29:12 <Supercheese> little toastish popup
07:30:25 <Supercheese> if "toast" is the appropriate term
07:31:35 <Supercheese> Well, new code compiles
07:31:38 <Supercheese> let's see if it works
07:31:48 <Supercheese> there's such a vast gap between those two :P
07:34:15 <Supercheese> Huzzah, works as intended
07:34:22 <Supercheese> thanks for the help
07:39:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24905 /trunk/src (12 files in 3 dirs) (2013-01-11 07:39:25 UTC)
07:39:32 <DorpsGek> -Feature(ish): Implement station randomisation triggers.
07:43:01 <peter1138> anyway that gets that one off my "nearly finished but forgotten about for a few years" pile
07:43:16 <peter1138> custom bridge heads was on it once :p
08:03:49 <Supercheese> How does (animation_frame + nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0)) % 128 never return zero? :S
08:05:45 <peter1138> if the random bits never change
08:05:50 <peter1138> then it's very unlikely
08:06:23 <Supercheese> Problem is I'm borrowing code without understanding most of it :S
08:06:50 <Supercheese> (animation_frame + nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0)) % 24
08:07:02 <Supercheese> very conveniently cycles between 0 and 23
08:07:17 <Supercheese> Apparently mod 128 does not
08:07:25 <Supercheese> cycle between 0 and 127 that is
08:07:43 <peter1138> how many animation frames?
08:08:02 <Supercheese> Oh that might be preset
08:08:04 <Supercheese> hence my problems
08:08:14 <Supercheese> perhaps... the global animation_counter?
08:09:52 <peter1138> if you've got 4 frames, and the random bits are between 1 and 123 (most likely) then you won't see 0
08:09:56 <Supercheese> again, borrowing without understanding :S
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08:23:57 <Supercheese> I think I have improved my understand of the mechanics
08:24:17 <Supercheese> animation_frame has a preset max, I didn't get that at first
08:25:58 <Supercheese> it cycles between 0 and the frame_count defined in the object info
08:26:14 <Supercheese> if I'm not mistaken
08:26:22 <peter1138> it contains the current frame, yes, it's not a counter that just increments all the time
08:27:28 <Supercheese> I think I'll edit the wiki to make that more explicit
08:29:43 <peter1138> i always thought animation_frame is quite obvious
08:30:29 <Supercheese> I was treating it more like animation_counter
08:30:47 <Supercheese> programming after midnight
08:31:37 <Supercheese> 0..(frame_count - 1) \
08:31:40 <Supercheese> 0..(frame_count - 1)
08:31:43 <Supercheese> ignore that slash
08:31:47 <Supercheese> I hope that's correct
08:38:41 <Supercheese> was attempting to decrease the probability of triggering using the wrong switch
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09:12:46 <peter1138> feck it's cold out there
09:13:26 <Supercheese> negative some-odd Celsius
09:17:08 <Supercheese> I use a different method
09:17:46 <Supercheese> A while back I was complaining about alt codes being very unintuitive, so I wrote an Autohotkey script which is much more intuitive IMO
09:18:07 <Supercheese> things like ::a`::á
09:20:14 <Supercheese> my keyboard layout has no support for special vowel-chars like those
09:20:31 <Supercheese> advantage of the script is it's easily extendable
09:20:32 <peter1138> just a standard uk layout here
09:20:37 <Supercheese> just have to think of hotkeys
09:20:51 <Supercheese> hotstrings, rather
09:22:22 <Supercheese> Yeah, mine doesn't do that by default
09:22:27 <peter1138> (doesn't work the same on windows)
09:22:39 <Supercheese> but the script could do that, so yeah
09:22:54 <Supercheese> and works for other stuff
09:23:13 <Supercheese> e.g. Greek characters, :c:gamma<::γ
09:23:18 <Celestar> what's the music driver of choice on linux today? allegro?
09:23:46 <peter1138> dunno, i never use the game music
09:23:56 <peter1138> extmidi + pmidi used to work for me though
09:24:21 <Supercheese> I always run Winamp for the game music, since midi is just bleh for audio quality
09:24:39 <Supercheese> and some users have posted lovely renditions of TTD music with much better quality
09:26:23 <kamnet> Midi is just BLEH for audio quality? Tsk tsk tsk.
09:27:02 <Supercheese> I'm sure there are some fancy libraries or whatnot to make it nicer
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09:27:14 <Supercheese> I'm not motivated enough to get them :P
09:27:23 <kamnet> Honestly, the problem is that there's just too much poor quality midi out there
09:27:52 <Supercheese> you can blame the 90s for that
09:28:19 <kamnet> I've found a lot of great quality midi, many instruments, sophisticated layers and orechestration.
09:28:43 <kamnet> Much of the midi that is out there is a basic drum combined with either a really horrible horn, or a boring piano.
09:29:37 <kamnet> Eventually when I get around to posting my winter holiday music pack, you'll get to hear a lot of great sounding music.
09:30:14 <Supercheese> I wonder if comparing midi to fanfiction is a good analogy
09:30:21 <Supercheese> mostly rubbish but some good stuff :P
09:30:50 <kamnet> I don't think that would be too unkind.
09:31:14 <Supercheese> double negative :S
09:31:44 <kamnet> Honestly arranging midi is quite a lot like arranging a band or orchestra. There are very talented people who can do it well, but most people know just enough to be dangerous.
09:31:57 <Supercheese> another good analogy
09:32:12 <Supercheese> Broomhall did a superlative job
09:32:37 <Supercheese> my favorite midis, since 1995 :)
09:32:37 <V453000> :D kist enough to be dangerous :D
09:32:39 <kamnet> Yep, he did. And he didn't have superfancy sound font libraries to work with.
09:34:05 <kamnet> Actually my next music project is going to be working w/ a very popular midi composer who arranges music for popular video games. A lot of the music I've already picked out, IMO, is reminiscent of Sim City 2000.
09:34:22 <kamnet> Except it's longer than 60 seconds... and actually sounds really good.
09:34:33 * Supercheese can't really remember Sim City 2k
09:34:53 <Supercheese> I didn't play it nearly as much as TTD or some other games
09:35:08 <Supercheese> I played the heck out of SimTower back in the day
09:35:12 <Supercheese> didn't have music IIRC
09:35:22 <kamnet> LOL. I remember what I thought I heard, which is likely right because I mostly heard it on crappy non-stereo computer speakers. A few years ago I went back and listened to it over my 5.1 surround sound system, and it's BAD.
09:35:42 <Celestar> did I mention that I hate Oracle?
09:40:23 <Supercheese> Well, should sleep, approaching 2 AM
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09:43:22 <peter1138> but yeah, a lot of midi *files* are poor though
09:46:54 <kamnet> I've heard toddlers banging on toy pianos sound better
09:50:02 <peter1138> i like my pianoteq, sounds pretty good
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10:48:25 <peter1138> hmm, £22,800 over paid
10:49:55 <peter1138> way better deal than ppi i reckon
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11:25:42 <Maedhros> is there any chance i could get a +v in #openttd.dev?
11:30:17 <peter1138> nothing to stop dev discussion in here
11:31:09 <Maedhros> fonsinchen: (re gradual loading) do you mean removing the setting, or removing gradual loading?
11:32:07 <fonsinchen> I'm not talking about removing anything. I'm trying to figure out in what ways I can change the behaviour without breaking anything.
11:32:43 <fonsinchen> For example are there situations where I can reserve for the full vehicle and incrementally load the reserved cargo with gradual loading?
11:35:23 <Maedhros> you mean when improved loading is disabled?
11:36:11 <Maedhros> as far as i remember gradual loading was originally written to follow the ttdpatch implementation, and didn't really have any conceptual interaction with anything else
11:36:47 <Maedhros> although it did have the effect of reducing loading times, and especially unloading times
11:40:01 <fonsinchen> It reduces unloading times? how does that work?
11:40:16 <fonsinchen> And what is the actual intention? Is that documented anywhere?
11:40:39 <fonsinchen> Improved loading takes no effect when no full-load order is given.
11:41:44 <fonsinchen> And, yes, otherwise gradual loading may only be interesting without improved loading. That's one of my theories.
11:42:23 <Maedhros> in TTD, when something arrives at a station it loads and unloads everything at that moment, and ignores any cargo that arrives at the station afterwards (without full load)
11:42:58 <Maedhros> it then tells the vehicle to wait at the station for a certain amount of time depending on how much cargo was unloaded (maybe also loaded? I don't remember that part)
11:43:13 <Maedhros> so if you had a long train it would all unload instantly and then wait for ages doing nothing
11:43:24 <Maedhros> whereas with gradual loading it'll leave as soon as it's empty
11:43:36 <V453000> interesting I didnt know that
11:43:51 <fonsinchen> However, with gradual loading it takes longer to actually unload the stuff
11:44:08 <Maedhros> yes, but leaves the station more quickly afterwards
11:44:39 <fonsinchen> I guess the difference is actually that with gradual loading GRFs can tell the load time whereas without they cannot.
11:45:27 <fonsinchen> Let's ask a different question: If I removed gradual loading and made it default to "on", would that annoy anyone and why?
11:45:31 <Maedhros> i was always annoyed with the default behaviour in passenger trains - a train would arrive, load what was there at that moment, and then wait without loading any more passengers when they appeared
11:45:48 <V453000> why would you remove in the first place? :d
11:46:15 <fonsinchen> Because it increases the complexity and it seems that no one wants that set to "off".
11:46:32 <fonsinchen> Or is there any reason to disable gradual loading?
11:46:47 <V453000> I know sometimes people use it to cheat long loading times
11:46:51 <V453000> other than that, probably not
11:48:08 <V453000> hm I guess that option indeed is quite useless
11:48:09 <Maedhros> personally i would never want to play without it (but i may be biased because i think i wrote it ;)
11:49:25 <fonsinchen> If you switch off gradual loading you'll also get some kind of "greedy" loading behaviour on a per-consist basis.
11:49:52 <fonsinchen> The first consist takes all it can get, then the second one and so on and possibly some later consist will stay empty.
11:50:05 <fonsinchen> With gradual loading on, the cargo is divided more evenly.
11:50:21 <fonsinchen> Is the greedy behaviour something someone may want?
11:50:59 <V453000> nah I cant really thing of any utility of the not gradual loading
11:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: i think you miss the difference between "gradual loading" (step-by-step loading of vehicles) and "improved loading" (one vehicle gets all cargo until it is full, then the next one gets cargo...)
11:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause> those are two independent settings
11:54:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24906 trunk/src/pbs.cpp (2013-01-11 11:54:12 UTC)
11:54:21 <DorpsGek> -Fix (24905): Don't trigger on path reservation for waypoints.
11:57:34 <fonsinchen> I know the difference. Without gradual loading however, non-full-load orders behave a bit like full load orders with improved loading.
11:58:02 <fonsinchen> The vehicle loads all it can load and waits a longer time afterwards.
11:58:19 <fonsinchen> It does not actually wait for more cargo afterwards, though.
11:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> improved loading should only have an effect on full load orders
12:00:13 <fonsinchen> I guess that the whole "improved loading" thing was a hackish fix for gradual loading removing that behaviour and leading to many half-full vehicles.
12:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> even without gradual loading, you get many half-full trains on a low-output industry when you have full load orders
12:01:40 <peter1138> improved loading came before gradual loading
12:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, full load was fairly counter-productive when you had more than one train
12:02:26 <fonsinchen> That's because non-improved loading doesn't do anything on non-loading ticks...
12:03:25 <fonsinchen> Someone needs to get a big hammer and smash that loading algorithm to pieces.
12:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it is... "grown" :p
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12:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> improved loading was for a long time considered as the "why would you eveer need something else?" until the coop-people "broke" it
12:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (by having industries who produce faster than a single train can load it)
12:07:55 <fonsinchen> I guess I'll write a patch that only removes gradual loading and file a bug report for it. Let's see what comes out of that.
12:08:03 <V453000> how can you blame use for having too highly producing industries
12:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: you start sounding like andythenorth...
12:12:43 <peter1138> a lot of newgrf graphics are designed with gradual loading in mind
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12:17:25 <fonsinchen> Of course "removing" means only "removing the setting", while switching it to "on".
12:17:54 <fonsinchen> As I gathered from the previous discussion there is no good reason to have that "off".
12:18:17 <fonsinchen> And anyone switching it off will at least get the potential for cheating as side effect.
12:20:34 <peter1138> not really, it's game-wide
12:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> just remove both settings, and tell those pesky coopers to just use non-full-load orders :p
12:21:59 <Ammler> there are already way too few settings, do not remove the last standing ones, just make it nice defaults
12:22:30 <peter1138> not heard that complaint before
12:23:03 <Pinkbeast> I do think there's a risk of going down the GNOME3 route
12:23:26 <peter1138> rm table/settings.ini
12:23:26 <fonsinchen> Well, if we need a setting there, then its behaviour should be well-defined and there should be an explicit reason for having the setting.
12:23:34 <Ammler> I don't get the benefit of removing settings, if you just can set nice defaults
12:23:58 <peter1138> Ammler, well it makes the code full of special cases
12:24:02 <Pinkbeast> Ammler: Extra work to ensure the non-default settings continue to work.
12:24:03 <fonsinchen> Having settings to have more settings is pointless. It just increases code complexity and makes the code harder to maintain.
12:24:06 <Ammler> maybe if you really need, you could remove those from the gui and make it console settings only
12:24:37 <fonsinchen> Ammler: What exactly does the gradual loading setting do and why do you want the option to switch it off?
12:24:40 <peter1138> Ammler, you're missing the point :p
12:25:08 <Ammler> fonsinchen: I do not care about developemnt that is your task ;-)
12:25:27 <fonsinchen> That is about behaviour of the game not development.
12:25:50 <Ammler> removing it to make the code "easier" is development, imo
12:25:51 <fonsinchen> I want an answer like "It makes the last wagon in my trains green and I like that"
12:26:34 <fonsinchen> If I get an answer like that, I'll immediately stop with this. Otherwise I'll insist that it's useless.
12:27:16 <Ammler> it's not about my personl opinion, it is about the possibility someone sometime does want it
12:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: i guess it's one of those "allow legacy behaviour" settings
12:27:53 <peter1138> search for 'gradual loading' on the forums, quite a lot of people seem to want it turned off
12:28:19 <Ammler> it happens quite often you miss half a year of development and another nice setting is gone or a feature got introduced without setting
12:29:05 <peter1138> which settings have been removed?
12:29:50 <peter1138> i'm against adding new settings "just because", but also against removing old settings "just because"
12:29:52 <Ammler> well, worst I have in mind was the flip engine
12:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that was not removed, it was clarified as newgrf-controlled
12:30:34 <peter1138> i don't think that was ever a setting
12:30:57 <Ammler> well, you call it a new feature without setting
12:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what you mean by that
12:31:37 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: it changed gameplay and forced newgrf devs to update their grfs
12:31:39 <peter1138> so you think we should've added a setting to get around a feature to avoid graphics bugs?
12:32:07 <peter1138> flipping engines changes gameplay in absolutely no way
12:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it didn't change gameplay, it changed eyecandy
12:32:37 <Ammler> well, I also play with eye sometimes :-)
12:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and it's a trivial change to the newgrfs in question
12:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> only a very tiny fraction of the users was ever affected by the change
12:34:43 <V453000> YAY flip discussion :D
12:35:35 <V453000> it should have been the other way around that newgrfs would disable it explicitly, but ye
12:35:42 <fonsinchen> people apparently turn off gradual loading to simulate something like "percentage order".
12:35:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: anyway, it was a _carefully_ weighed decision that the change was needed to have a more controllable environment, and that a setting for it would be overkill
12:36:01 <Ammler> the feature was good, the missing setting was bad
12:36:12 <fonsinchen> As with gradual loading the vehicle only loads the cargo it finds when it first arrives and does not load more cargo arriving later.
12:37:01 <fonsinchen> Thttp://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=54716&hilit=gradual+loading
12:37:08 <Ammler> the main issue was that it needed changes from newgrf authors
12:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: like bridges-over-stations will, and like any change/addition to newgrf behaviour will
12:39:39 <V453000> bridges over what? :D
12:40:12 <Ammler> also I don't get why it would have beend so overkill to introduce a setting, since you need to handle option there anyway
12:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the only difference between "newgrf controls whether a vehicle can be flipped" and "newgrf controlls whether a bridge can be over a station" would be that one was a half-baked uncontrollable feature before, and the other is new. why would that justify a setting to override the newgrf control in either case?
12:43:17 <Ammler> because you change existing behavior, not fixing a bug
12:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> mosquito->elephant
12:45:41 <Ammler> every feature which changes gameplay should have a setting
12:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> a compromise is where everyone comes out of the discussion with the feeling he's been screwed over :)
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12:46:19 <Ammler> no matter how important it might look right now
12:46:40 <Ammler> not every setting needs gui
12:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that's only in a perfect world where code complexity of a setting is 0 and maintainability is 100%
12:47:12 <Pinkbeast> Are you proposing to do the additional code maintenance to keep the game working with all possible combinations of settings?
12:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: since it is not, there sometimes are sacrifices to make
12:48:39 <Ammler> yeah, well there are some examples like flip engines, where a settings is absolutely no more work since it needs to be option anyway
12:49:18 <Ammler> or like the constant MAX_YEAR could be a setting
12:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that it could be, but it still needs someone to a) write a patch, and b) review the patch for unwanted side effects
12:51:07 <Ammler> well, "they" also added code so you weren't able to patch it like building rivers in game mode
12:51:20 <Ammler> that was additional code
12:52:41 <Ammler> so it is not always about code maintenance, sometimes also to force players to play like someone else want
12:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> building rivers ingame was never a feature, what is your point??
12:53:38 <Pinkbeast> Do you mean to say that not everyone working on OTTD has exactly the same objectives? I am shocked to discover that.
12:53:46 <Ammler> the feature was to forbid building ingame
12:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the feature was "allow building rivers in scenario editor"
12:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the missing feature there is "switch from game-mode to scenarioeditor-mode"
12:57:01 <Ammler> there is additional code which assures that you can't build rivers ingame, it is not just missing code
12:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is an argument for/against what?
12:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> features need code.
12:58:20 <Ammler> you said, the missing settings are because of code maintenance
12:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i said the missing settings are BALANCING the need for the setting vs. the necessary maintenance
12:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> with the rivers, the balance was that the need for disallowing was stronger than the increased maintenance effort. with the flipping the balance was the other way around
12:59:44 <Ammler> some settings need no maintenance
13:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that, of course is a subjective view, as the measures are not exact science
13:00:15 <Ammler> it is already a option
13:00:16 <Flygon> Flipping trains is like flipping burgers
13:00:32 <Flygon> Hard to master, but mundane to appear
13:00:33 <Ammler> else you cuoldn't set it via newgrfs
13:01:11 <Ammler> it has basically just the wrong default
13:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if there ever was a need for that setting, that need has certainly vanished by mow
13:02:26 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you are worst reference for player settings anyway :-)
13:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you have that option, you can write a trivial addon newgrf that enables the option for any vehicle
13:03:11 <Ammler> yep, that is the excuse of the devs
13:03:43 <Ammler> why not the other way around, do additional work to disable flip?
13:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it needs 3 things: an action 8 for the name/id of the GRF, an action0 feature8: grf-override for every known grf-id and an action 0 feature 0: set the flip bit for every vehicle id
13:04:45 <Ammler> and how much more would have it needed to disable it?
13:05:46 <Ammler> so you broke 90% of the newgrfs because of one old lazy newgrf author, which grf was it again?
13:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: all GRFs which used vehicles-shorter-than-default
13:06:32 <Ammler> lol, seriously, ottd devs did it for dbset? :-D
13:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH MB!! :p
13:07:01 <Ammler> that is so typical :-P
13:08:04 <V453000> go tell him to put shit on bananas then :D
13:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: well, there would have been the option to auto-enable the flag for all vehicles of length 8, but that would have meant a serious complication of the grf specs
13:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i do that every time...
13:08:58 <Ammler> anyway, the point is that you usually do not know the consecenses when you introduce a feature, so a setting would always be nice, later you can decide if it needs gui
13:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: we can't force him
13:09:43 <Ammler> or later you could also change the default
13:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: we knew the consequences, we specifically voted against it.
13:09:58 <Ammler> but introducing a setting afterwards won't happen
13:10:21 <peter1138> 12:43 < Ammler> because you change existing behavior, not fixing a bug
13:10:33 <peter1138> actually it was fixing a bug
13:10:56 <Ammler> peter1138: you fixed a bug in a newgrf or in players gamestyle, yes
13:11:36 <Ammler> the "bug" arised only, if a player actuall flipped a engine
13:12:21 <peter1138> also, not just dbset
13:12:28 <V453000> flipping was quite a secret feature anyway wasnt it
13:12:38 <Ammler> it wasn't debset eitehr
13:12:41 <peter1138> a stupid feature imho
13:12:46 <Ammler> no grf, just players stupidity
13:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> the "bug" arised only, if a player actuall flipped a engine <-- $bug with $feature only happens when you use $feature?!? now your arguments are getting really silly
13:17:32 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you removed/disabled a feature just because a player made something stupid
13:17:49 <Ammler> I do not call that fixing
13:19:43 <peter1138> you can call it what you like
13:19:49 <peter1138> it doesn't matter to us, because we know it's a bug fix
13:37:16 <Ammler> That just proves my point, ottd devs usually do not care about users, but that is fine. (I guess, it could be s/ottd/opensource community/)
13:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: there's always some extremist that doesn't get his point across to the general consensus, that doesn'm mean anything about the "cariness" about "users"
13:38:29 <peter1138> imho flipping engines was a misfeature that shouldn't've existed
13:38:34 <Flygon> When you're paid, you suddenly care a lot more :p
13:38:50 <Flygon> Also, flipping engines has some use
13:38:57 <peter1138> if it was something that affected game play, maybe it would've turned out different
13:39:14 <Flygon> eg. real world locomotive sets where locomotives can either be single or push-pull on each end of the train
13:39:20 <peter1138> now, what does mb want?
13:39:37 <Ammler> yeah, it was just an example, I am sure I was sad about other "new features" as well, it is just a long time already :-)
13:42:28 <peter1138> hey i'm sad about all the extra hardcoded airports
13:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> remove them! without option!
13:44:37 <Ammler> you locks patch is really no gameplay, but flipping engine I flip a bit on that view :-P
13:44:49 <peter1138> Ammler, totally wrong
13:44:54 <peter1138> flipping engines is eyecandy only, no gameplay
13:45:09 <peter1138> the locks patch affects ship movement, therefore it clearly affects gameplay
13:45:29 <Ammler> maybe because I used ships tat rarely
13:48:02 <V453000> the locks are totally fucked up if you ask me
13:48:57 <planetmaker> but... "it's realistic", V453000 ;-)
13:49:09 <V453000> planetmaker: I know, but it looks horrible :D
13:49:29 <planetmaker> Not sure it looks horrible. But without locks which close the gates it looks funky
13:49:30 <V453000> like so horrible beyond broke, esp if the water in the locks already is going downhill
13:50:04 <V453000> well luckily I use only 5000 ships per game :)
13:52:13 <peter1138> there's plenty of issues with it
13:54:22 <planetmaker> I assume esp. in the PF, peter1138 ?
13:54:31 <V453000> hey, issues are realistic right
13:54:57 <peter1138> planetmaker, none there
13:55:07 <peter1138> didn't touch it in fact
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14:00:21 <peter1138> planetmaker, graphical issues with very long ships
14:00:26 <peter1138> (as if there weren't any before!)
14:02:09 <V453000> so ... why such a wtf feature? :o
14:04:06 <peter1138> it's a feature request
14:04:48 <V453000> that doesnt mean it makes sense...
14:05:52 <peter1138> now anyone with some _constructive_ feedback?
14:06:26 <V453000> sure, the original is better
14:07:36 <V453000> then how is making this clearly worse thing constructive?
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14:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: maybe both the lock glitch and the tunnel glitch could be solved by just making ground sprites have bounding boxes?
14:12:39 <Ammler> according to that video, I like it, but even here there are people not liking it, so again a setting needed?
14:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (i'm sure that'd break 10000 other cases)
14:13:15 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, not really feasible as then everything on screen needs sprite sorting
14:13:31 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, although that necessary if you introduce cliffs
14:13:41 <peter1138> Ammler, seems that way
14:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: or implement statemachines so this lock version could be a newgrf overriding the original lock
14:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> no setting needed
14:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> after all, if hardcoded additional airports are bad, how can hardcoded additional locks be good?
14:16:41 <peter1138> i'd consider implementing newgrf locks
14:16:57 <peter1138> raising/lowering water
14:17:11 <peter1138> if it wasn't for ships being allowed to traverse through each other
14:17:22 <peter1138> hmm, lock-reservation
14:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the statemachine could reserve states so that traversing is possible/impossible
14:18:43 <fonsinchen> two-story locks where ships are flipped to the side by 90° so that they pass each other while travelling from top to bottom or vice versa ;)
14:20:17 <fonsinchen> Or just make it a black box. On each side one ship has to enter. Then a purple bubble emerges and burst in the players face and then the ships emerge, each on the other side.
14:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like something out of Ijon Tichy :p
14:31:32 <fonsinchen> We should have more stuff like that in the game. If I wasn't so thoroughly untalented in drawing I'd make some newGRFs.
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14:44:35 <peter1138> fonsinchen, nah, it's all horrible beyond broke, totally fucked up, doesn't make sense and unconstructive
14:46:04 <peter1138> it's either realistic or unrealistic, either way it's all a wtf feature
14:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a reason why i always put "realistic" in quotes
14:47:00 <peter1138> you definitely shouldn't make stuff that users ask for, also you should listen to everything that users have to say
14:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i told you a few days ago, Ammler's logic often defies real logic ;)
14:50:33 <Ammler> not really related to logic, rather freedom
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14:54:56 <Maedhros> well, you've got the freedom to make AmmlerTTD behave any way you want it to :p
14:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Maedhros: but that would take actual development instead of complaining about what other people did :p
14:57:15 <jasperthecat1> I know right :P
14:59:24 * peter1138 ponders making a patch option (sorry "advanced setting") for every single change he makes
14:59:54 <peter1138> i will add a new category (optional of course) called "Ammler", although that will be optional too
15:00:15 <Celestar> where is the game looking for newgrfs :P
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15:01:40 <peter1138> ~/.openttd/newgrf ~/.openttd/data ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf ~/.openttd/content_download/data ./newgrf ./data
15:01:44 <jasperthecat1> Well, I keep getting ads about trucks and stuff. For example: Freight-liner, and Splinter.
15:01:49 <peter1138> okay maybe half a dozen
15:02:26 <peter1138> what does tmnt have to do with it?
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15:10:41 <Ammler> Maedhros: yeah, another excuse :-P
15:16:35 <dihedral> AmmlerTTD = Ammler tries to do? :-P
15:26:23 <Terkhen> you have a dirty mind :P
15:26:45 <Terkhen> they didn't seem like that to me until you mentioned it
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15:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't appear to me that way 10 years ago either... the internet corrupted my mind!!
15:34:11 <Terkhen> the new version broke civIV for me
15:34:13 <V453000> k luckily I dont see anything weird there :)
15:34:26 <V453000> you shouldnt drink so much Terkhen :P
15:34:32 <V453000> (yes I know what you mean by wine) :)
15:38:16 <Terkhen> it seems that I was able to fix it
15:38:33 <Terkhen> V453000: wine is for playing, for drinking I have beer
15:50:46 <Superuser> that good feel when linuxbros itc
16:08:29 <peter1138> hmm, so i've got my tgp mods here
16:08:35 <peter1138> but i can't remember what i was trying to achieve
16:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the landscape feature variation functions?
16:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (those were actually included ;))
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16:41:30 <peter1138> i always wonder if it would be useful to have random data per station part
16:43:21 <peter1138> well not always, only when i'm thinking about this stuff :p
16:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of "random" and what kind of "data"?
16:46:23 <peter1138> persistent data that can be randomised by randomactions2
16:46:53 <peter1138> i guess mb still doesn't quite understand it
16:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> using the term "dummy" to mean the opposite of what everyone else wants it to mean certainly doesn't help :p
16:48:49 <peter1138> dummy as in doesn't do it!
16:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it doesn't decide graphics chain (main application), it only represents the triggers (side effect)
16:49:57 <peter1138> dummy cos it doesn't cause randomisation!
16:50:08 <peter1138> i dunno, you kids these days
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17:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Maedhros: the idea was to introduce "town" (house) and "city" (skyscraper) icons similar to train/truck/etc. symbols
17:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then they could also be shown on the main view/minimap
17:14:23 <Maedhros> aha, fair enough. i guessed this sort of idea must have come up at some point
17:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you'll find several threads in the forum
17:28:51 <peter1138> mb didn't actually explain what he wanted to happen, of course...
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17:52:13 <peter1138> if (username = V453000) lockstyle = old;
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18:03:03 <peter1138> hmm, my station height spec is off-by-one compared to object heights :S
18:04:04 <frosch123> i thought it's the same
18:05:49 <frosch123> maybe there is a obiwan in ottd
18:06:53 <frosch123> or does ottd consider the height of the bridge itself > 0
18:06:56 <peter1138> if (GetTileMaxZ(tile) + height > z_start + 1) goto not_valid_below;
18:07:04 <peter1138> if (GetTileMaxZ(tile) + spec->height > z_start) goto not_valid_below;
18:08:30 <frosch123> does an object of height 1 imply that the bridge should be at 2? (like ottd does)
18:08:41 <frosch123> or do the specs rather suggest that the bridge can be at 1?
18:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: then 0 can't mean "no bridge"
18:10:04 <frosch123> why? a bridge cannot be at the same height as the object
18:10:18 <frosch123> a bridge is above the surface, not on the surface
18:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean if 1 means 2, then 0 can't mean 1 and never at the same time
18:14:19 <peter1138> ah, so mb is really just trying to convince me to implement something that is not possible. cool.
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18:15:22 <frosch123> hmm, yeah, objects have a separate flag to allow bridges
18:15:52 <peter1138> yeah cos they don't have 8 tiles per object
18:17:33 <frosch123> earlier in that topic rb suggested to use "0" for "no bridge". but that is not what was implemented
18:18:27 <peter1138> not sure which makes sense, but using the same system would surely be better
18:18:36 <peter1138> in which case i need to change from 0 to something else
18:18:49 <peter1138> or add an additional flag
18:19:09 <peter1138> or i keep what i've done and have it different
18:19:23 <peter1138> there should only ever be 8 anyway
18:19:34 <peter1138> technically you could assuming X & Y variants are the same
18:21:14 <frosch123> you can close the 'station triggers do not work' bug btw
18:32:11 <frosch123> does your locks patch support reversing the ship while it is inside the lock?
18:32:18 <frosch123> ttdp completely breaks when doing that iirc
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18:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> if a vehicle is in a [custom] statemachine and the turnaround button is pressed, and the state does not say what happens on turning around, just reset the state to some entry/exit state?
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18:48:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24907 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-11 18:48:02 UTC)
18:48:14 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:48:15 <DorpsGek> arabic_egypt - 6 changes by zaabi1995
18:48:16 <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 100 changes by logi
18:48:17 <DorpsGek> traditional_chinese - 16 changes by Marcadana, elleryq
18:48:18 <DorpsGek> korean - 23 changes by telk5093
18:48:19 <DorpsGek> tamil - 12 changes by aswn
18:48:20 <DorpsGek> turkish - 53 changes by barisdemirdelen
19:07:13 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, show me the turnaround button :p
19:10:08 <Maedhros> would skipping to another order do it?
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19:39:41 <Supercheese> Hmm, are translated/localized versions of readmes that are included in grf bundles possible?
19:40:30 <frosch123> you can localise readme and changelog
19:40:36 <frosch123> you cannot localise license
19:41:37 <Supercheese> Do I rename them to readme_UK.txt, or use a lang ID, or...
19:42:01 <Supercheese> Aha, under that page
19:42:50 <Eddi|zuHause> GRFv9 suggestion: rip out the "cargo" stuff of action3, and put the callbacks in there instead
19:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> then the rerandomisation could simply run through all callback branches
19:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, what happened to the squirrelgrf project? ;p
19:45:08 <Supercheese> hibernating for the winter? :P
19:45:31 <Supercheese> NUTS should be coded in squirrel :D
19:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you forgot XML anyway :p
19:46:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: counter proposal
19:46:15 <frosch123> elminiate random actions
19:46:29 <frosch123> and specify retriggering in some other way
19:46:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: specify retriggering using CB1 :p
19:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> GRFv9-CB1 returns a bitmask of bits to retrigger
19:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> in its return value or in some register
19:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 32bit callback results
19:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 32 random bits are enough for everybody
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20:57:17 <frosch123> some latvian speaker around?
20:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> svn log | grep latvian <-- list of candidates
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21:03:05 <jasperthecat1> Just uploaded a map...
21:09:21 <frosch123> so, who can match "pasažieris", "pasažieri", "pasažieru" to 0, 1 and 2?
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21:13:00 <frosch123> "pasažieris" is the one in the dictionary
21:13:22 <wojteks86> sound like slavic language
21:14:04 <wojteks86> I would go for accordingly 1=2, 2=1, 3=0
21:14:08 <wojteks86> but make sure on the forums ;)
21:16:57 <frosch123> hmm, that page is quite useless
21:17:19 <frosch123> but yeah, most likely is = 1, i=2, u=0
21:18:30 <wojteks86> better to ask someone from Latvia :D
21:20:35 <wojteks86> actually, after looking at the example from your link, it appears they are in the correct order already
21:20:45 <wojteks86> I mean, where you first posted them
21:21:00 <frosch123> wiki also has a lot latvian declensions
21:21:22 <frosch123> but non mentioned a special plural form for 0, 21, 31 etc.
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21:22:29 <wojteks86> unfortunately, I cant really help with Latvian
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22:16:30 <wojteks86> silent night, holy night
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22:31:03 <Jasperthecat1> I think this is the last update for today on my scenario called 'Road Vehicle Map'.
23:07:29 <peter1138> hmm, canstations includes waypoints... as stations :S
23:11:44 <Jasperthecat1> If anyone wants to come and play in my server, it's called 'Road Vehicle server :P'
23:11:59 <peter1138> yeah yeah, you have a thing about road vehicles
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continue to next day ⏵
