IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-23
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00:00:30 <drac_boy> last I checked the few old livestock wagons in usa .. they had no way to tell which was for cow or sheep except for spotting the mid-deck floor .. unless someone wrote down the wagon numbers
00:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but these are post-unification systems, each of the "ancient" companies had their own classification schemes
00:01:01 <drac_boy> yeah thats true... the pre-drg systems were a bit different
00:01:07 <drac_boy> especially the one listed for prussia
00:01:47 <drac_boy> thats why a lot of the 2nd (and further) letters seem to have changed during the 1920-1950 period on german railways
00:02:13 <drac_boy> eg what would had been 'g' before 1943 is now 'k' afterward
00:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> some things just became obsolete
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00:04:13 <drac_boy> I still have to look up a translation but I'm not too sure why an cab car for electric train could be classified as either ES or EB
00:04:17 <drac_boy> both seem to mean the same thing
00:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ES is a wagon with a cab, EB is without cab
00:06:11 <drac_boy> oh you mean like an emu without cab located at one end? or am I wrong
00:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. berlin S-Bahn sets came in ET+ES and ET+EB variations
00:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> which means the ET+ES one can go in both directions as a single unit, but the ET+EB one must be combined with another unit backwards to be fully operational both ways
00:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so you must have (ET+EB)+(EB+ET) or (ET+EB)+(ET+ES) or somesuch
00:08:38 <drac_boy> oh right so thats like as in |cab----||----cab| verus |cab-----||------| just to simplify this a bit?
00:08:46 <michi_cc> It's not aligning different NewGRFs to each other as they all have differently aligned centers, but each NewGRF is consistent in itself.
00:09:09 <drac_boy> thanks...yeah I can see why they'll need two sets back to back for the latter .. or even just one of both in proper direction
00:09:20 <michi_cc> Oh, reload please, forgot a left -> right for RTL.
00:09:47 <frosch123> i would assume there is a fixed offset between the two heads
00:10:00 <frosch123> so width += does not sound right
00:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the typical usage scenario is two to four sets anyway
00:10:35 <drac_boy> mm yeah I know japan had the same with some of their motors which were built to be used in sets pretty much
00:10:48 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause I'm sure I got this right but anyway one other thing...
00:11:25 <drac_boy> ETA is as in ... E for electric .. T for that its a railcar (english term) .. A for that its battery powered
00:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "Akkumulator" is the typical german name for a rechargable battery
00:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (usually abbreviated to "Akku")
00:14:47 <drac_boy> mm thanks for the help with that ES/EB classification tho
00:14:54 * drac_boy needs to go for a while now tho :|
00:18:06 <frosch123> michi_cc: you might also want to add SA_STRIP to the engine name drawing now :)
00:18:34 <frosch123> hmm, you did, why does it not work in my compile
00:18:54 <michi_cc> There are a few NewGRF using spaces for alignment.
00:19:13 <frosch123> V453000: that is really stupid!
00:19:54 <frosch123> are you adding spaces in front of vehicle names to allow bigger purchase sprites?
00:20:13 <frosch123> see, that is stupid
00:20:42 <frosch123> it depends on the fontsize
00:20:49 <frosch123> and ottd has no chance to fix it
00:21:08 <frosch123> ottd can do nothing but break nuts
00:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you CRACK nuts, not break them :p
00:22:02 <V453000> well I assume I can do nothing else than keep the spaces or remove larger sprites
00:23:10 <michi_cc> V453000: The old way would have been to use SETX (which NML doesn't allow).
00:25:59 <frosch123> michi_cc: maybe TRAININFO_DEFAULT_VEHICLE_WIDTH instead of the 29?
00:26:07 <michi_cc> I can also assume you never switched your OpenTTD to arabic language either.
00:26:45 <michi_cc> frosch123: Yes, I just didn't know we had that constant :)
00:27:21 <V453000> uhmmm so suggestions frosch? :D
00:27:38 <frosch123> V453000: update nuts after michi committed, and never bother again
00:29:52 <frosch123> michi_cc: diff looks nice :)
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00:32:23 <V453000> like with some extra value somewhere?
00:32:42 <V453000> uhm but that will still apply only for trunk wont it
00:32:58 <michi_cc> The only really troublesome NewGRF I could find was Sailing Ships 0.62 as its sprites have heaps of unnecessary padding, which messes up the layout.
00:33:25 <frosch123> the more noticeable it is, the more likely to be fixed :p
00:34:02 <michi_cc> V453000: Your GRF is already broken the moment someone uses a custom FreeType font or a RTL language (i.e. everything without latin letters).
00:34:44 <V453000> does that apply even when nuts isnt translated in any language? :d
00:35:36 <michi_cc> Just make a new game, open the train purchase list and select Arabic as language in the game options.
00:36:21 <V453000> LOL it even is from the right
00:36:49 <V453000> well honestly, too bad; people can always play the game in english
00:37:02 <V453000> I havent even gotten a report about that yet
00:37:46 <michi_cc> It's a bit hard if you're not speaking English...
00:37:52 <V453000> :DDD this is funny thought
00:37:59 <V453000> why is EVERYTHING reversed? :D
00:38:20 <V453000> I didnt talk english when I started playing openttd either
00:38:36 <michi_cc> Because the reading direction of arabic is right-to-left, and OpenTTD is properly internationalized and localized.
00:39:19 <V453000> yeah but when all the icons of everything and yes/no and everything is reversed it just looks funny
00:39:24 <V453000> I would have expected only text :)
00:39:47 <frosch123> V453000: even the fast forward is mirrored
00:39:57 <frosch123> and "play" in music gui (if you ever found that one)
00:40:05 <V453000> but yeah .. honestly they just either wont play with NUTS for now, or they switch to english
00:40:19 <V453000> I will update it when the feature goes to stable
00:40:44 <michi_cc> The new commit will in fact unbreak it for arabic but break it for english :)
00:41:09 <V453000> stilll, on trunk I have easy means to tell the people what is going on, on stable I dont
00:41:14 <michi_cc> Well, somewhat break it, you'll just have unnecessary blank space.
00:41:20 <V453000> since trunk is only our servers
00:42:06 <frosch123> michi_cc: maybe the space between icon and text could be a bit bigger
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00:42:24 <frosch123> FRAMERECT_LEFT/RIGHT is a bit few
00:42:43 <frosch123> maybe better WD_FRAMETEXT_LEFT
00:45:30 <V453000> isnt 1.3.x coming soon anyway? :)
00:46:13 <frosch123> well, we hoped we wouldn't have to do it due to the world ending
00:46:19 <frosch123> but now it looks like we have to
00:51:04 <V453000> hmmm I wanted to make a feature where intercity trains grow on power with length
00:51:12 <V453000> but like the engine gets more power
00:51:20 <V453000> sooo, length of consist -> power
00:52:16 <V453000> how dumb is it to re-use the deprecated thing -I just forgot the name- ?
00:55:11 <V453000> does NML even support that anymore?
00:55:22 <frosch123> michi_cc: looks better
00:58:15 <frosch123> V453000: it is mentioned in the specs, but no idea whether anyone ever tested it :)
00:59:06 <V453000> I think it actually worked for me but when I wanted something more complicated there was some issue I think
00:59:20 <V453000> probably that I wanted to define all sprites by one switch or something else, idk
00:59:29 <V453000> I will try it again I guess
00:59:38 <V453000> I cant really reach what I want to do any other way I think
01:00:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24839 /trunk/src (11 files) (2012-12-23 01:00:25 UTC)
01:00:34 <DorpsGek> -Feature [FS#5271]: [NewGRF] Support oversized purchase list sprites. (Based on patch by Eddi)
01:01:02 <V453000> OVERSIZED! that is discrimination, they are Just the right size ;)
01:02:36 <V453000> perhaps slightly obese but not oversized :(
01:02:46 <V453000> same as people calling my new slugs fat :(
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01:06:04 <Flygon> Y'know, if someone ever makes a Steampunk-Dieselpunk GRF
01:06:21 <Flygon> We gotta have 512*96 Zepplins
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01:22:04 <Supercheese> challengeaccepted.jpg
01:51:26 <V453000> extra_power_per_wagon: switch_monoice1_extra_power; <--- This expression cannot be assigned to a parameter.
01:55:32 <Flygon> Also, these Christmas themes are annoying as hell
01:57:49 <V453000> on the scale of sadness, I am quickly turning into a panda
01:58:30 <V453000> when a train can dynamically change its power, why couldnt the wagons
02:00:42 * Flygon gives Panda some Watermelon
02:01:40 <Flygon> You're the strangest Panda I've ever met
02:01:58 <V453000> well that isnt too surprising I guess
02:02:31 <V453000> sad panda which creates mazes for trains, eats features and draws weird shit
02:03:06 <Flygon> You aint seen much of my shit :P
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07:36:52 <andythenorth> FISH 2 is a very boring newgrf
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08:57:07 <Supercheese> andythenorth: FISH 2 is a very boring newgrf
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08:57:52 <Supercheese> You've integrated ship AI, so you just say "move stuff from here to here" and it does it for you? :P
08:59:25 <andythenorth> it's just loads of ships
08:59:43 <andythenorth> type x v1, type x v2, type x v3
08:59:58 <andythenorth> followed by "here's same ship, but as a tanker"
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09:23:36 <andythenorth> anybody want to update FIRS translations?
09:23:47 <andythenorth> for example, the Australian translation o_O
09:28:45 <V453000> andythenorth: is there _any_ possibility of a reason to use both old and new FISH at the same time? Cause some people do and I am very wtf about it
09:29:24 <andythenorth> the only valid reason is lack of sense
09:30:21 <peter1138> V0.51 (Dec 21th, 2012)
09:30:26 <peter1138> not only a new release
09:30:34 <peter1138> but he fixed the bug i mentioned before i mentioned it
09:32:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: you're playing ottd? :o
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09:52:01 <peter1138> playing? don't be silly
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10:17:03 <Zuu> I'm thinking about displaying "select page" or "jump to page" on the drop-down at the bottom instead of the current page title. This simplifies the code as afaik, the widget doesn't need to compute the length of all drop down items anymore to figure out the minimum widget width.
10:17:16 <Alberth> Changing ID of a page makes life complicated imho
10:17:57 <Zuu> I'm thinking about chaning GSStoryPage.RemovePage into GSStoryPage.RemoveAllPages
10:18:17 <Zuu> You can already alter the text of a page afterwards.
10:18:47 <Zuu> Without removing it and shooting yourself in the foot if you leave a hole in the ID sequence.
10:19:04 <Alberth> yeah, but people will create all empty pages at startup and fill them, to work around the changing ID thingie
10:19:35 <Alberth> better decouple the ID of a page from its location in the book, imho
10:19:47 <Alberth> also, can I insert pages in the book?
10:19:56 <Zuu> Do you really need being able to insert a page anywhere other than at the end?
10:20:25 <Alberth> I have two goals, both multiple pages long
10:21:00 <Alberth> although it needs some chapter/section structure then, probably
10:21:22 <Zuu> yes, that probably need the ability to have two or more chapters visible at a given time.
10:22:24 <Alberth> a global goal and a company goal would be likely
10:22:48 <Alberth> or in the tutorial, a overall goal, and some sub-goals in that
10:22:57 <Zuu> For tutorial chapters I was planing to first display a chatper selection page. Then run that chapter. At the end of chapter append a new chapter selection page. (or remove all pages before adding the new chapter selector page)
10:23:44 <Zuu> I wonder if goals need to be split into overall goals and tasks in the API world or if it is good enough to just mix them.
10:24:30 <Alberth> I'd leave that to the authors of the scripts
10:24:46 <Alberth> but imho, being able to cope with more than one goal would be good
10:26:05 <Alberth> perhaps a wiki-ish approach?
10:26:29 <Alberth> with arbitrary links to other pages in the text
10:26:32 <Zuu> It sounds like you want a tree structure for the pages that is visible in the GUI.
10:28:10 <Zuu> I was thinking about adding a {GOAL} string code to display a goal symbol and then the Goal text.
10:28:13 <Alberth> s/want/like/ but yeah, a strictly linear flow feels somewhat limited
10:29:00 <Alberth> do goal window stays the same?
10:29:22 <Zuu> I think that a linear book with only adding pages is good for the reader. Non-linear content is already possible by not creating all pages at start but instead dynamically adding them.
10:29:56 <Zuu> I haven't made anything to the goal window other than puting the progress text in a column of its own.
10:32:49 <Zuu> Also, in the OpenTTD GUI we have invented the scroll bar (in contrast to medival games), so a page can currently be up to 512 chars or so.
10:33:21 <andythenorth> o/t Alberth you're making a GS?
10:33:26 <Zuu> If that is too limiting, the page could inself hold a list of content. So that you could push multiple sections of up to 512 chars onto a page.
10:34:07 <Zuu> The later might be interesting if you also could push sprite references as content to display a sprite in the page.
10:34:47 <Alberth> I think most NewGRF readme files are much longer than 512 characters :p
10:34:47 <Alberth> But a low limit is good, I think, it forces the author to be compact
10:35:36 <Alberth> andythenorth: no, how did you reach that conclusion? :)
10:35:41 <Zuu> As long as the English text is keept below 350 chars or so to allow for translations to be longer. ;-)
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10:35:56 <andythenorth> misread something above :P
10:36:22 <Alberth> the gimp must be distracting you ;)
10:37:23 <Alberth> Zuu: when you make a page with a table of contents, you need wiki-ish links to other pages
10:38:13 <Zuu> You then need a way to allow detecting which word someone have clicked on. Though if anyone implements that, then we can finaly make town names in the chat clickable :-)
10:38:28 <andythenorth> will the story be able to report goal progress / performance?
10:38:58 <Alberth> Zuu: nice idea, then we only need TAB-completion of town names :)
10:39:27 <Zuu> If a page (can) reference a goal, then I'm thinking about adding a goal/task section at the bottom that list the goals with the text displayed in the goal window.
10:40:12 <Alberth> Zuu: but from a position clicked at to a row+column in the text is not that complicated
10:41:15 <Zuu> Not more complicated than the rest of the string system :-)
10:41:54 <Alberth> hmm, yeah, good point
10:43:13 <Zuu> But you need to refactor the drawing routine that decide which location to draw, to allow it to be used both for drawing and checking of input.
10:43:34 <Alberth> I don't know whether you can query the pixel-size of a letter in a string
10:44:19 <Zuu> The cursor movment need it. But I don't know if it is publicly exposed.
10:46:00 <Zuu> All I know that it is easy to screw up with the UTF8 stuff :-)
10:48:47 <Alberth> that's just to make it sufficiently interesting :p
10:49:55 <andythenorth> patch the routine that actually draws chars to screen, so it draws / stores a bounding box as it renders
10:50:02 <andythenorth> use the bounding box for detecting cliccks
10:50:12 <Zuu> Anyway, my idea for allowing a chapter selection is not links (as they need the target page to exist), but a "select on out of these answers" question. If OpenTTD would have radio buttons, I would use that, but afaik that widget doesn't exist.
10:51:33 <Zuu> Upon clicking on an OK-button, the GS will get an event with the answer and can construct the next page.
10:52:03 <Alberth> Zuu: radio buttons is just a concept on top of the core GUI widgets, just like the scrollbar and its canvas can now be linked together.
10:52:14 <Zuu> Of course we could have links and a GetPage Event to create a web server-ish solution...
10:53:30 <Zuu> Alberth: I don't claim it would be impossible to add them. However, there might be a design decision why they don't exist.
10:54:00 <Alberth> Zuu: there is; nobody needed them badly enough to create them
10:55:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: solution feels too blunt imho, clicking doesn't happen often enough, and response time is not that critical :)
10:55:37 <Alberth> but it is sort of the direction where you need to go
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10:55:53 <Rubidium> Zuu: the 'back' and 'forward' arrows as well as the checkbox did not exist either
10:56:10 <Flygon> Zuu: Try working with Japanese forms
10:56:23 <Flygon> I get told 128 letters is enough
10:56:31 <Flygon> 128 letters is shorter than a Tweet!!!!!!
10:56:57 <Flygon> And the Japanese seem to have no concept of linebreaks
10:57:04 <Alberth> Flygon: letters != bytes :p
10:57:19 <Flygon> So I write something... and it comes out as one huge sentence
10:57:25 <Flygon> Alberth: I'm preferring to Pixiv
10:57:35 <Flygon> Also, the titles for images submitted... 32 letters
10:57:55 <Flygon> I know the Japanese like efficiency
10:57:56 <Rubidium> 32 Kanji is way more than 32 Latin letters
10:58:00 <Flygon> But I'd rather Swiss efficien
10:58:03 <Flygon> Not Japanese efficient @_@
10:58:12 <Flygon> I know, I've worked with Japanese before
10:58:21 <Flygon> Just... usually in a Jap > Eng context :p
10:59:06 <Rubidium> luckily they don't insist on writing top-to-bottom and then left-to-right, even though they used to do it that way
10:59:48 <Flygon> You mean right-to-left, right?
10:59:53 <Flygon> They still fail to understand linebreaks
11:01:14 <Rubidium> Flygon: hmm... that's even worse ;)
11:01:53 <Rubidium> I was happy I could decypher the bus time tables
11:03:37 <Zuu> I hope they were not those scary examples with more exceptions than non-exceptions :-)
11:04:15 <Rubidium> hmm... here comes the anecdote ;)
11:04:17 <Flygon> Rubidium: I struggle with Australian timetables
11:04:21 <Flygon> Especially Melbourne's trams :p
11:04:33 <Flygon> There's comprehensive, and then there's comprehensively incomprehensible
11:05:23 <Rubidium> I planned a route to some company (we were with a big group) and one person lost his 'ticket', so I and that person bought a new ticket while the others already went towards that company
11:05:35 <Rubidium> the route consisted of two trains and then a bus
11:06:08 <Rubidium> once the big group arrived at the bus terminal they could not find the bus and asked people about that bus. They were told the bus did not run, so they started to walk to the company
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11:07:08 <Rubidium> I and the person with the lost ticket came one train later and had less than a minute to transfer to the bus. We succeeded in that. During the bus trip we saw the group walking, so we decided to get out of the bus and walk with the group for the last few hundred meters
11:07:57 <Zuu> Sounds like you were lucky to catch them up. :-)
11:08:37 <Zuu> But maybe the larger group wasn't that happy to walk.
11:08:57 <Rubidium> they were not that amused
11:09:09 <Rubidium> interestingly I found a bus the locals didn't know about
11:10:41 <Flygon> Rubidium: I still challenge you to navigate Melbourne's trams unassisted
11:10:48 <Flygon> It ends up being easier to bicycle :p
11:11:57 <Rubidium> oh... free travel on Tuesday ;)
11:12:26 <Zuu> Do they also have a short stop distance?
11:14:10 <Rubidium> is unassisted "without locals helping" or "without doing any research at all"?
11:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: is that like "you pay half price if you only go 4 stops"?
11:15:42 <Rubidium> it doesn't look that difficult
11:15:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: is there no way to simply add an in-line button?
11:15:57 <andythenorth> maybe de-chromed?
11:16:46 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: unless you forget to checout and you pay to the end destination. (that was a system that they were trying to deploy in Gothenburg)
11:16:48 <Flygon> Rubidium: No local help
11:16:55 <Flygon> Zuu: Practically every street corer
11:17:17 <Flygon> If you know your way around, it's basically a teleporter
11:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: "checkout"?
11:17:55 <Zuu> blip your card on a reader before jumping of the tram/bus
11:18:18 <Eddi|zuHause> electronic ticket
11:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, we don't have those :)
11:18:30 <Flygon> But they have to tell people to HOLD the card at the reader, and not bend it
11:18:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: it means you're faking the button; just like the advanced settings. You draw a button, and it acts like a button, but the button does not exist in the gui system. It is handled purely by the adv. settings Window code itself by means of x/y offset. That works because the position of a button is easy to figure out.
11:19:14 <Flygon> A combination of people being ignorant that circuitboards are weak, the old 'smart' system using cardboard + magstrips, and shitty software (it takes forever to read the card)
11:19:30 <andythenorth> ok that makes sense
11:19:47 <Flygon> Only Victoria can spend literal billions on a ticketing system that ends up worse than a $250-$500 million Oyster card system
11:20:01 <Flygon> (bill hit between $2.5b to $3.5b iirc)
11:20:02 <Zuu> We have thoses for paying when you enter the bus/tram in most cities in Sweden. There was a project to set a common standard for all regions so that you would only need one card for whole Sweden and possible also some neighbouring countrise. However each region added extra features which now means that you need about 10+ cards co cover the entire country.
11:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: doesn't sound like a useful system anyway. if you go often enough that an electronic ticket is easier than a paper ticket, you probably want a monlthy/yearly ticket anyway
11:20:56 <Flygon> Eddi: People here are getting V/Line paper tickets (intended for interstate and inter-regional travel) for urban travel, to avoid myki use
11:21:09 <Flygon> The Govt doesn't like that. So they're converting the ENTIRE V/Line network to myki
11:21:27 <Flygon> This will create unusual amusing problems in Adelade and Sydney... which use their own SEPERATE smartcards :p
11:21:39 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I'm unsure if they still run it like that (with check out). It got massive critism when they were trying to introduce it.
11:21:51 <Flygon> So you'll end up with railway and bus stations having both myki and Opal card readers :p
11:22:01 <Zuu> One thing was that you were needed to have enough money on the card when going on the bus to be able to pay all way to the end.
11:22:27 <Flygon> Here, your card just goes into negative balance
11:22:33 <Flygon> The purchase fee for the card covers it
11:22:43 <Zuu> That works if there is a fee to pay for the card.
11:23:33 <Zuu> And that fee have to be high enough to be larger than the maximum negative balance. Otherwise people will put it into system.
11:23:51 <Flygon> It's $3 for concession and $6 for full fare
11:24:10 <Flygon> A Zone 1+2 full fare trip is around $6 one way
11:24:16 <Flygon> (half fares for concession)
11:24:30 <Flygon> Additional zones are V/Line-only (which only use paper atm)
11:24:37 <Zuu> Also for non-metropolitan trips?
11:24:44 <Zuu> Eg. going by local train.
11:25:01 <Zuu> I mean, outside of the zones.
11:25:06 <Flygon> Here, Zone 2 goes for between a 50 to 200 kilometer radius from Melbourne
11:25:18 <Flygon> Trains, Buses, and Trams here are all aligned to zones
11:25:22 <Flygon> And ferries are barely used
11:25:41 <Zuu> Well, if the maximum price is no more than $6, then it might work.
11:25:46 <Flygon> Zones 3 and beyound (including B... long story) are V/Line only anyway
11:26:02 <Flygon> The confusion is, however... what happens when V/Line finally is forced to myki?
11:26:57 <Flygon> Will they up the default didn't-touch-off price (for coaches and trains) to $50? Or just install myki barriers at EVERY station? :p
11:27:17 <Flygon> I can imagine the political cartoons for myki barriers on coaches now :p
11:28:59 <Flygon> Though, I imagine a better solution is having the conductor performing checks on cards, and charging extra for peeps with enough money
11:29:09 <Flygon> Er, without enough credit on the cards
11:29:35 <Zuu> With my Skånetrafiken card I can already pay a ticket from eg. Copenhagen all way to Gothenburg. Not just for myself but for more than one people also. So the maximum price I could pay is quite high.
11:29:37 <Flygon> Funny quick story, Zuu, btw, regarding urban travel here
11:29:55 <Flygon> On the only long distance electric line, they retired the 30+ year old electric locomotives
11:30:03 <Flygon> There was no replacements
11:30:36 <Flygon> They marshalled in some Comeng and Hitachi EMU's for a 300km+ trip
11:31:10 <Flygon> Problem: These EMU's were designed for 115km/h top speed and 1 hour trips... they're basically seats on wheels, no other facilities
11:31:28 <Flygon> The EMU trips got ditched quickly, some N-class Diesels purchased, and the line dewired
11:32:22 <Flygon> (the Hitachi and Comeng even have the bonus of looking like they came from a 1970s New York subway :p)
11:32:33 <Flygon> Wait, Zuu, you can cover multiple people on one card?
11:32:42 <Flygon> Can't do that here... each person gets a card
11:33:01 <Flygon> (unless you cheat and get help from V/Line, anyway)
11:33:16 <Zuu> Flygon: Yep. Its your money that is loaded onto the card anyway. And you get some 20% savings when paying for two on the same ticket.
11:33:39 <Flygon> You used to be able to get such things on Metcard, but not anymore
11:33:40 <Zuu> After all you utilize the ticket machine less.
11:34:23 <Flygon> V/Line is just a happy exemption, thanks to Zone B (it's basically a regional Zone 2... V/Line created it and shoved it down Viclink/PTV's gob for the sake of V/Line's operational convenience, iirc)
11:34:41 <Zuu> Something which otherwise easily get a bottleneck on crowdy stations.
11:34:41 <Flygon> Here, our myki readers struggle
11:34:45 <Flygon> Huge queues aren't unusual
11:35:03 <Flygon> Probably because people are dumb, and don't realize they have to HOLD the card for more than a tap4
11:35:18 <Flygon> Everyone assumes it's an Oyster card
11:35:28 <Flygon> (leave it to the Brits to be more efficient than Australians)
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11:37:06 <Zuu> Regarding zones, when you buy a ticket over the bridge to denmark, your ticket is valid for local transport in all zones in Copenhagen except for zone 2. So if you get off in zone 2 you have to figure out how to pay the local transport here or you get stuck. :-)
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11:38:29 <Flygon> How does your zone network here?
11:38:44 <Flygon> Zones 1 and 2 here are circular (based on distance from CBD)
11:39:00 <Flygon> 3 to... 78??? *shrug* are radial and dependant on which state you're in
11:39:47 <Zuu> IIRC all zones in copenhagen are radial. I haven't yet used the local transport there other than the metro train.
11:40:55 <Zuu> IIRC, Stockholm also got a radial zone system. However, when you go by metro you only pay for one zone even if you travel all way out to the end.
11:41:22 <Flygon> But it's not geographically accurate
11:41:22 <valhallasw> Flygon: that probably depends on the reader. The dutch rfid public transport card is really fast for some readers (<100ms) and really slow for others (few secs)
11:41:35 <Flygon> valhallasw: Even the best readers take over 500ms
11:42:08 <valhallasw> what I meant to say is that they should have bought better readers :-)
11:42:11 <V453000> :DD What does Bork AI do? :D is more bork than the rest?: D
11:43:00 <Flygon> valhallasw: Yes, but that'd take $10 billion, with our Governments
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11:44:26 <Flygon> Better off investing in 10 new railway lines
11:44:40 <Flygon> Or upgrading some existing V/Line lines to 250km/h operation
11:45:01 <Flygon> ...and then upgrading the transmission on the VLocity trains to handle over 200km/h safely @_@
11:45:06 <Zuu> V453000: What does the Clueless AI do? Being more clueless than the others?
11:45:18 <Flygon> Zuu: No, being as clueless as me :D
11:48:02 <Zuu> V453000: There is all range of names with different expcations. All way from bork, simple and clueless up to dictator. :-)
11:48:34 <V453000> whole range of bork :)
11:49:19 <Zuu> And the correlation between the name and performance of the AI isn't that high.
11:49:36 <Alberth> in several different dimensions of borkness probably :p
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12:14:20 <V453000> hm I tried to code powered wagons so I made a livery override and then I added the extra power per wagon : 1000 ... it does show in the purchase menu, but the wagons dont get powered
12:15:31 <Flygon> Get $5,000 and pay an Indian to fix it
12:15:45 <Flygon> Since that seems to be the way the whole IT industry is going x.x
12:16:18 <V453000> this isnt IT this is madness creations inc.
12:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there's a special flag that says which wagons are powered and which ones are not
12:20:34 <V453000> yeah I have that too :s
12:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> then you should talk to someone who does powered wagons
12:22:55 <peter1138> (but he got it wrong)
12:23:06 <V453000> I guess mb doesnt use nml
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12:45:05 <V453000> I wonder if the fact that the wagons also have a switch for graphics on their own could be the issue
12:45:14 <michi_cc> andythenorth: You've seen r24839?
12:45:24 <V453000> but shouldnt the livery override just go over that?
12:46:45 * andythenorth will pull and test FISH 2
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12:50:43 <V453000> the wagon also needed the powered flag
13:16:10 <frosch123> it's amusing how often "you need at least ottd r24715" is said recently :p
13:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think i've broken civ5 completely now :/
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14:20:57 <andythenorth> I should centre those or something
14:22:55 <michi_cc> If you make sure the x-offset is always half the width the game should draw them all aligned.
14:23:42 <Alberth> the second entry has some weird quote at the start of the text
14:36:51 <Pikka> why are the names of the ships in FISH completely different from one version to another? :)
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14:37:38 <Pikka> and does the bundaberg tanker carry rum or ginger beer? Those are the only two liquids that come from bundaberg. :)
14:37:56 <andythenorth> Pikka: I am confused myself :P
14:38:03 <andythenorth> where is the altair?
14:38:34 <Flygon> Urf, I just accidentally disabled that % thingo for stations
14:42:03 <andythenorth> Pikka: "made up boat name" altair
14:48:01 <drac_boy> btw does action7 disabling a grf based on another grf being present only works if you know the name of the latter grf..as in that you can't use it as a blank any-grfs skip?
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14:56:21 * drac_boy is just wondering how to not have two sprites conflict
14:58:41 <peter1138> disable your grf if any other grf is active? sounds ... useful
15:00:53 <drac_boy> well thats what action7 description says .. I'm just wondering if the grf has to be named or it can be used as a blank action
15:01:00 <drac_boy> thats pretty much all ^ :-)
15:01:26 <peter1138> it's done on grf id
15:01:44 <drac_boy> mmm so it does have to be named. thanks
15:01:54 * drac_boy goes back to reading some more pages
15:01:57 <peter1138> and that shit should be avoided
15:13:03 * andythenorth has some fixes to do :)
15:13:52 <drac_boy> peter1138 mm well in that case about avoiding action7 how would you make sure that you don't have for example two different tram track grfs loading at same time?
15:16:03 <Pikka> your mum should be avoided, peter1138
15:16:19 <Pikka> but indeed, so what if you do
15:16:50 <Pikka> I should think the second would take priority
15:20:58 <andythenorth> FIRS disables itself if conflicting grfs are found
15:21:02 <andythenorth> I don't know if that's wise
15:21:08 <andythenorth> but handling bug reports is boring
15:21:56 <drac_boy> yeah I don't want to bother with silly bug reports about using train combinations that shouldn't happen in first place neither
15:22:03 <drac_boy> so I'm just thinking about it anyhow :)
15:22:12 <peter1138> train combinations. on tram tracks.
15:23:10 <drac_boy> actually its not just tram track :)
15:23:20 <Alberth> drac_boy: enumerating conflicting grf-ids is hardly a fool-proof way of handling it
15:23:53 <peter1138> you can't really list every possible grf id that may exist in the future
15:24:50 <andythenorth> tell FIRS that :P
15:24:50 <drac_boy> alberth yeah I know...still wonder how you can make a player not complain when its their own fault in first place tho
15:27:19 <Alberth> another option is to acknowledge there are other good NewGRFs that you didn't write
15:28:36 <Alberth> andythenorth: the author of FIRS seems to know it already :p
15:35:04 <drac_boy> is it just simply clerestory or are there other words for these older coach roofs with the raised center line?
15:39:00 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24840 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-12-23 15:38:54 UTC)
15:39:01 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Draw NewGRF railtypes in NewGRF station previews.
15:39:40 <peter1138> only a few months since my last one
15:44:59 <drac_boy> heh I noticed MB's newstation thread complained exactly about that :)
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16:01:06 <drac_boy> heh thats nice.. a second choices of paddle boat finally
16:01:24 <drac_boy> only question is: are introduction dates actually corrected this time or there's still too many silly diesel boats in 1900? :P
16:03:42 <drac_boy> at least you kept the two hydrofoil boats
16:12:10 <peter1138> drac_boy, not exactly that
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16:46:09 <andythenorth> drac_boy: the introduction dates will be wrong by 50 years or so
16:46:22 <andythenorth> due to a bug I can't fix
16:53:33 <drac_boy> hmm to use numbering or letter system for my locomotive...good question heh
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17:26:31 <drac_boy> flygon if you're reading this, the thing you told me about speed restrictions before....
17:26:44 <drac_boy> well apparently the same thing happened with canadian steam too
17:28:21 <drac_boy> eg one locomotive class is rated for 70 due to its smaller tires (re counterweights) but some engineers had been known to do at least 85 with them on the other hand especially when late....! can't imagine the summer rail conditions like that
17:28:39 <drac_boy> and its a streamlined express locomotive so....no comment :->
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17:34:15 <drac_boy> anyway need to eat some lunch
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18:45:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24841 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-12-23 18:45:17 UTC)
18:45:27 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:28 <DorpsGek> belarusian - 36 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by Snail_
18:45:30 <DorpsGek> swedish - 25 changes by Joel_A
19:04:22 * andythenorth wonders if santa will bring nicer smoke for newgrfs?
19:12:59 <peter1138> he doesn't have time to code
19:14:04 <andythenorth> maybe his elves can do it?
19:14:56 * andythenorth brings a FIRS 0.8.0 for christmas
19:15:06 <andythenorth> on banananananans soon, unless my battery dies first :P
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19:17:52 <andythenorth> pikka has 666 downloads of UKRS + Addon
19:17:57 <peter1138> just write a spec for it
19:17:57 <andythenorth> does that mean the world will end?
19:18:00 <peter1138> put it in the newgrf specs
19:18:07 <peter1138> then complain that ottd doesn't support it
19:25:14 <andythenorth> I love that banananananaas description field counts returns
19:27:24 <andythenorth> also is bananas a bit fucked for uploading?
19:27:53 <andythenorth> "couldn't detect anything useful in this pack"
19:28:02 <andythenorth> or "There should only be one NewGRF in your pack"
19:28:25 <andythenorth> the second error occurs when I unzip & untar, then rezip
19:36:21 <andythenorth> grf works in game
19:38:31 <andythenorth> comes from the makefile
19:38:47 <andythenorth> uploading manually tarred version results in second error
19:39:19 <andythenorth> tempted to blame the banana machine :P
19:57:15 <dv8472> hi, after very long time, I've returned back to ottd (using latest 1.2.3), started new game. after some time, I've noticed, that industries, like farms, forrests etc. are producing (after some time, not from beginning) very low, only few units at most. what changed? I've found something named FIRS in the wiki, with something about spare parts, but I'm not sure about it, and also how to use these, as I don't see no such options in the game.
19:58:19 <Zuu> To use FIRS, it have to be downloaded and then activated in the NewGRF settings before starting a new game. So the chance that you use it is probably quite low.
19:58:52 <Zuu> Keeping the station ratings up keep up the chance for production raises.
19:58:54 <dv8472> ok, thx for clarification about the FIRS.
19:59:44 <dv8472> station ratings? and how do I increase the station rating, station at farms, forrests, etc. ...?
19:59:57 <Zuu> The station that pick up the cargo.
20:00:11 <Zuu> If it is just eg. 20% you will only get 20% of the industry output.
20:00:34 <Zuu> However if it is 80%, you get 80% of the industry output (given no competitor)
20:01:01 <dv8472> is there a way I can increase the rating?
20:01:07 <Zuu> There is also a chance for production raise/drop which have a relation to the level of service provided.
20:01:30 <Zuu> Buy a statue in the town it belongs to. That give a 10% boost.
20:02:08 <Zuu> Always have at least one train loading at the station.
20:02:36 <dv8472> aha, so even the farm rating is related to what I buy for the city?
20:02:44 <Zuu> There is a Game Mechanics wiki page that get into high detail on this if you want to read exactly how things work.
20:02:58 <dv8472> even though my the company relationship with city is e.g. very good?
20:03:09 <andythenorth> if you want FIRS, try the newest version :P
20:03:21 <andythenorth> not on the content service though :(
20:03:24 <Zuu> The statue give a 10% station rating boost for all your stations "in" that town.
20:03:26 <dv8472> no, no FIRS, I was only curious about it
20:03:45 <Zuu> Basically all industries belong to a town. Usually (always?) the closest town.
20:04:28 <dv8472> I simply forgot about the basics, and the station ratings through services for city especially ;)
20:04:38 <dv8472> thanks for quick reminder Zuu
20:05:11 <Zuu> andythenorth: Did you try to upload the NewGRF in just a tar?
20:05:24 <andythenorth> if it succeeds, then there is no readme and such :P
20:05:36 <Zuu> Isn't the readme inside the tar?
20:06:58 <Zuu> Eg an AI/GS is a tar with one root directory in which main.nut and info.nut are the two compulsory .nut files. In this root directory there can also be readme.txt, changelog.txt and the license file.
20:08:23 <Zuu> If the NewGRF-tar cannot hold the readme etc. I would try to make an outer tar containing the NewGRF-tar + readme files etc. and upload that to bananas.
20:08:36 <Zuu> I don't know if that works, but it is something that I would try.
20:10:52 <Zuu> It does however look (looking at the source code) that it should support uploading zip containers.
20:11:52 <Zuu> Eg. first it look for compression using gz or bz2 then for one of the three containers mentioned above.
20:12:10 <Zuu> Eg. you can upload .tar.bz2 or even .zip.gz, but not .tar.zip.
20:15:17 <Zuu> andythenorth: When I download your .tar.zip file it contains two firs.grf inside the tar file. One at root level and one in a sub directory called "PaxHeaders.20324".
20:15:29 <Zuu> If bananas find more than one .grf files it will give the error that you mentioned.
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20:16:52 <dv8472> Zuu: does the small advert. camp. have the same effect as an statue?
20:19:04 <dv8472> glx: yes, but also much more expensive (about 400000?). and as I'm at the beginning of the game, I'm not that rich yet, to afford e.g. build statue in 11 cities.
20:24:34 <andythenorth> Zuu: interesting....I can't see a subdir if I expand that .tar.zip
20:25:47 <Zuu> I used 7zip if that make a difference.
20:27:53 <drac_boy> whats the compressed file for?
20:30:05 <Zuu> hmm gnu tar doesn't give me a sub directory.
20:30:40 <Zuu> Maybe that is just a 7zip thingy that happen due passing through the zip layer.
20:30:53 <drac_boy> since I have no idea what this file is 'm just going on a bit limb and suggest that some apps just simply don't reproduce empty folders?
20:36:35 <Zuu> I don't know what version of tar which is used on bananas, but if it is a version that doesn't understand these extended headers, it will see all files twice if I understand it correctly.
20:43:16 <peter1138> that's a pretty old bug
20:43:24 <peter1138> so it's unlikely to be that
20:43:49 <Zuu> That is what came up when I searched on PaxHeaders and tar.
20:44:43 <Zuu> But indeed, the server that run bananas probably don't have a untar that is affected by it.
20:49:19 <dv8472> Zuu: ain't there some cheaper replacement/other option for the statue? because if a man is at beginning, spreading his stations all over the map (mostly by transporting the raw resources \), it's impossible to buy statue at each city. thus the fall down of rating at each station is imminent.
20:49:37 <peter1138> it's not like you need them
20:50:24 <Zuu> They give 10% bonus, but if you get 60% by a usual station you can bost that to 70%, but it is not win or lose to get those extra 10%.
20:51:40 <Zuu> The statues are for when you earn enough money to afford them and can't find better ways to spend your money. Then you can boost your main pickup stations/towns using a statue.
20:52:17 <dv8472> Zuu: well, right I'm testing it on one station. I already purchased one statue, having currently 28% of ratio. and lot of my stations around are quite low on ratio.
20:52:46 <Zuu> Do you transport industry cargo or town cargo?
20:52:58 <Zuu> For industries, I would suggest using full load orders if you don't do that yet.
20:53:28 <Zuu> Eg. play the lorry scenario in "Beginner tutorial"
20:53:54 <Zuu> (a scenario that you get via online content and then click on play scenario in the main menu)
20:54:13 <dv8472> industry mostly, from one I have already town cargo - goods depending on the factory production depending on the industry cargo being very low.
20:54:51 <dv8472> I also do not remember such complications before. either something changed, or perhaps I just grew old and forgot lot of things when I used to play years before.
20:55:16 <Zuu> If you don't use full load orders, I'm not surprised that you get a rating at 28%.
20:55:35 <dv8472> no, no full load orders
20:55:50 <Zuu> The full load order basically tell the vehicle to wait on full load before leaving the station.
20:56:02 <andythenorth> anyone else want to build FIRS and tar for me?
20:56:11 <dv8472> this is precisely what I'm surprised as well, that the prod. ratio is so low
20:56:38 <Zuu> andythenorth: I could give a try. That bug report above (or some other) suggest using the -poxis flag.
20:57:26 <andythenorth> it worked this time
20:57:37 <andythenorth> I built the dir with the makefile, then manually tarred
20:58:21 <dv8472> Zuu: sorry, last answer of yours I misunderstood, just now I realized the mistake :) , so you say full load will change the ratio?
20:59:22 <Zuu> dv8472: If you always have at least one vehicle (train, lorry, bus, aircraft, or ship) loading at the station, your rating will increase.
21:00:23 <Zuu> The cargo siting in your vehicle after being loaded onto it will age, so the average payment per transported unit of cargo will drop.
21:00:44 <Zuu> However, as you will fill up your vehicles better and get more cargo, it is still an improvment.
21:01:36 <glx> the best is to have an empty vehicule enter the station just before the full one goes
21:01:42 <Zuu> For your information, cargo that wait on stations do not age.
21:02:14 <Zuu> However, cargo may disappear from the station instead.
21:02:38 <dv8472> there must have changed something with this indeed over the years, as I remember I have not used full loading before, and the ratio was never so bad.
21:03:06 <drac_boy> glx thats why I've always liked balloon-shaped station ... but mm :)
21:04:33 <Zuu> dv8472: I can't remember this having changed. I know that FIRS contain an alternative station rating mechanism. Also some of the cargo destination patches have made attempts to rework station rating.
21:04:54 <Zuu> But the default station rating is pretty much the same as ever as far as I know.
21:05:06 <Zuu> station rating mechanism*
21:05:17 <dv8472> then perhaps I grew old :D
21:06:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24842 /trunk/src (69 files in 7 dirs) (2012-12-23 21:06:37 UTC)
21:06:44 <DorpsGek> -Remove: News settings window.
21:07:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24843 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-23 21:07:12 UTC)
21:07:18 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Move news display options into the general settings framework. (based on patch by eagle_rainbow)
21:08:08 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24844 /trunk/src (59 files in 4 dirs) (2012-12-23 21:08:02 UTC)
21:08:09 <DorpsGek> -Add: News display settings to adv. settings window.
21:08:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24845 /trunk/src (61 files in 4 dirs) (2012-12-23 21:08:42 UTC)
21:08:49 <DorpsGek> -Add: News ticker sound setting to adv. settings window.
21:09:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24846 /trunk/src (33 files in 3 dirs) (2012-12-23 21:09:09 UTC)
21:09:16 <DorpsGek> -Add: Advanced settings to disable certain sound effects.
21:10:06 <drac_boy> don't know if theres any "steam technical engineers" in here heh but any of you know if a 3-cylinder compound locomotive would had likely been two small outside cylinders piped into one large center cylinder thats at least 1.5-2 times larger in diameter? or exactly how did they size it up anyway?
21:14:07 <Pinkbeast> The l.p. cylinder(s) overall swept volume must be larger by the ratio of steam pressures.
21:14:27 <Pinkbeast> So two h.p. cylinders into one l.p one produces a very big l.p cylinder
21:16:07 <Pinkbeast> One h.p and two l.p was a much more common arrangement; and Webb's "one l.p" locomtives were not often successful
21:18:17 <drac_boy> I doubt any locomotives with a left-l.p/right-h.p two cylinder setups were ever liked that much, were they?
21:18:34 <drac_boy> I know that the few usa locomotives that initially came that way were very shortly rebuilt to conventional 2 h.p instead
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21:24:07 <drac_boy> pinkbeast I don't know if you knew but at least one garratt type locomotive was built as 3-cylinder compound .. so it had a total of six pistons .. 3 front, 3 back
21:24:18 <drac_boy> only one was built tho, not exactly a good record
21:25:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24847 /trunk/src/lang (53 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-23 21:25:05 UTC)
21:25:12 <DorpsGek> -Cleanup (r24750): Remove unused strings.
21:45:58 <drac_boy> any unicode characters can go for player-visible text fields in a grf I presume?
21:47:03 <frosch123> but not every font might have every character
21:47:23 <drac_boy> mm well common symbols should still be ok nevertheless?
21:50:16 <drac_boy> and yeah I have noticed some computers with fonts that for some reason don't know how to display a french 'e' even although this is a english/french country here damn it :P
21:51:54 <drac_boy> eddi not here to answer this one but I assume that an open wagon without funnel and standard sides would be the same thing as an usa gondola car?
21:55:31 <frosch123> isn't a gondola just an open wagon with less high sides?
21:56:24 <drac_boy> yeah I had thought too..just wanted to recheck on that
21:57:09 <drac_boy> other things are easier to match .. eg covered van would just be a boxcar to us
21:58:04 <drac_boy> I doubt usa knows what to call a boxcar that has full-length sliding walls tho ... I just know they are named Hibbins over there in europe
21:59:54 <drac_boy> mm anyway back to a bit more work
22:10:50 <frosch123> covered van could also be only a tarpaulin, couldn't it?
22:12:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24848 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-12-23 22:12:52 UTC)
22:12:59 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5386]: Consider regearing-like cargos as no-cargo in cargo filters.
22:33:27 <drac_boy> frosch123 you may be right but I don't see anything in the german system that would suggest that tho. might be best to ask uk since they had a lot of tarped cars
22:54:35 <drac_boy> especially the odd locomotive with the large "articulated" truck under cab/tender
23:28:26 <Supercheese> Oh sheesh, I have to update and recompile yet again
23:29:47 <drac_boy> btw had any further progress with your in-game gulls?
23:30:04 <frosch123> it's good times for translator business :p
23:30:07 <Supercheese> Nope, like 90% of my favorite GRFs have recently updated
23:30:16 <Supercheese> I can't do any work when I keep playing the game
23:31:18 <drac_boy> Supercheese heh heh :)
23:31:36 * drac_boy finished my classification table and most of the draft locomotives too
23:31:44 <drac_boy> just working on final (and much smaller) list now :-s
23:32:02 <drac_boy> that together with that I think my supper from the oven's due soon too
23:32:51 <Supercheese> That reminds me, I have to do the dishes
23:32:57 <Supercheese> playing too much OTTD :P
23:48:22 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
23:51:44 <drac_boy> heh hey stimrol...funny timing..just finished eating supper dish :P
23:51:44 <drac_boy> have wait a little bit for the dessert one :)
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