IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-24
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01:10:53 * drac_boy straggles flygon's modem for no known reasons
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01:13:17 <Supercheese> Is the Fiber really all that jazz?
01:13:37 <Flygon> Supercheese: It lacks the sync issues ADSL has
01:13:55 <Flygon> As well as just being a hell of a lot more robust
01:13:58 <Supercheese> How about compared with Cable? Or is that not an option there?
01:13:59 <drac_boy> how're you otherwise?
01:14:20 <Flygon> Supercheese, we can get 100/2 cable here. But three issues.
01:14:30 <Flygon> 1. It's being replaced by FIOS in the future
01:14:38 <Flygon> 2. It's run by Telstra
01:14:55 <Flygon> 3. It's more expensive than hiring the Queen as a sex slave due to being run by Telstra
01:15:13 <Supercheese> Cost prohibitive, hmm
01:15:19 <Supercheese> It's pretty cheap here
01:15:34 <Flygon> Also, it has download limits
01:16:09 <Supercheese> Oh really? I hate ISPs that cap max downloaded in a month or whatnot
01:16:27 * Supercheese cannot even connect to that website
01:16:40 <Supercheese> there it goes finally
01:16:54 <Flygon> It IS hosted in Aussieland...
01:17:09 <Supercheese> I dunno, going from US to Au...
01:17:24 <Supercheese> ugh, FIVE gigabyte limit?!
01:17:41 <Flygon> $129 for an even remotely acceptable plan
01:17:44 <Supercheese> I can sneeze and download more than that
01:18:00 <Flygon> It's actually cheaper to get FIOS from other ISPs
01:18:06 <Flygon> Or get multiple ADSL plans
01:18:13 <Flygon> Presuming you have more than 1 phone line
01:18:15 <Supercheese> Oy vey, I see the problem
01:20:08 <Flygon> And it'll probably be upgradable to 1000/1000 in future @_@
01:22:06 * drac_boy wonders if flygon is ranting too much to even do anything else now? :)
01:22:40 <Flygon> I mean, let's put it this way
01:22:52 <Supercheese> Jeez, do they all have download quotas/caps?
01:22:56 <Flygon> The rail industry has better internet infrastructure than much of Australia atm
01:23:02 <Flygon> Supercheese: Depends on the ISP
01:23:13 <Flygon> But it's expected caps will be a thing of the past in future
01:23:20 <Supercheese> I would sincerely hope so
01:23:33 <Flygon> Caps are, excuse my language, bullshit
01:23:38 <Supercheese> I frequently download television series that can run from 20-70 gigabytes
01:23:54 <Supercheese> I'm filling my 1.5 TB hard drive ~_~
01:24:31 <Supercheese> I'd run into any of those download caps in a day, some days anyway
01:24:33 <Flygon> 50GB is my current limit @_@
01:24:38 <Flygon> We do intend to change ISPs
01:24:53 <Flygon> If I got the income, I'd actually get Telstra cable for myself. @_@
01:24:55 <Supercheese> well, maybe not 500 gigs in a day :P
01:25:07 <Flygon> Parents are a tad slow
01:25:20 <Flygon> 500GB a day is entirely possible on NBN :P
01:25:39 <Supercheese> I dunno what would be 500 gigs that I'd download all at once though
01:25:53 <Supercheese> The Complete Collection of Every Star Trek Ever, all in 1080p, perhaps
01:26:08 <Supercheese> if such a thing exists :P
01:26:20 <Flygon> Only ToS and parts of TNG have been remastered for 1080p
01:26:30 <Flygon> Not counting the movies here
01:26:36 <Supercheese> They're releasing some TNG remastered eps in theaters here, even
01:26:46 <Supercheese> promoting the blurays I suppose
01:27:05 <Flygon> Shit, man, I wish they did that here!
01:27:29 <Flygon> But all Aussie theatres air is just the latest movies
01:27:44 <Flygon> We have an, unfortunately, different movie culture to the USA
01:27:49 <Supercheese> Oh, it already happened
01:28:35 <Flygon> Notice how comments on the page also complain about the Australia thing :p
01:29:11 <Flygon> It's actually surprising that they don't air Star Trek episodes in movies here... we're full of Trekkies, and other Sci-Fi fans
01:29:28 <Supercheese> Probably some silly legal reason somewhere
01:29:32 <Flygon> Probably one of the few countries where you'll find utterly devout fans of Star Trek that're devout to Doctor Who too :p
01:30:43 <Supercheese> When something cool is failing to happen, likely some legislation somewhere is to blame
01:30:43 <Flygon> I'd have to look into it
01:30:43 <Flygon> But I think it's just that cinemas don't want to risk losing a profit on something that isn't getting nationwide advertising
01:30:43 <Supercheese> (alternatively, when bad things happen, also look for stupid laws)
01:31:41 <Flygon> We have a far higher minimum wage here... this's probably one of the few industries there it could possibly be a detriment (due to hiring a guy $16/hr to look over a movie reel for an hour with barely any patrons)
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01:32:48 <Flygon> I'd rather our min wage over TNG in cinemas
01:32:59 <Flygon> I mean, who can even survive on $7/hr?
01:33:07 <Flygon> You may as well eat dirt for lunch
01:34:23 <Flygon> drac_boy: Things cost around 20-50% more in Australia
01:34:25 <drac_boy> $7/hr if for six hours a day .. could get you a rented cottage-like space (may be shared roof..maybe not) ... basic dsl ... and some nice healthy foods ... and a small saving addup
01:34:33 <Flygon> Partially because everything has 10% sales tax included
01:34:34 <Supercheese> $7/hr would be awesome, it all depends on the price for goods & services
01:34:47 <Supercheese> would be awesome earlier in time*
01:34:48 <drac_boy> and thats with a 13% hst on everything even newspapers (yes..don't ask me why!)
01:34:53 <Flygon> $7/hr in Australia would let you rent a cardboard box in Australia
01:35:14 <Supercheese> Yep, all depends on prices of stuff
01:35:19 <Flygon> Paying over $1000/mo rent on minimum wage isn't unusual
01:35:27 <Flygon> And actually considered quite cheap
01:35:33 <Supercheese> A better figure would be the ratio of wages:living costs
01:35:41 <Supercheese> The higher the better :)
01:36:15 <Supercheese> Well, not higher as in legally enforced minimum higher
01:36:32 <drac_boy> reminds me of a silly 'murphy law offshot' list....
01:36:55 * Supercheese must leave to order turkey for Christmas dinner
01:38:07 <Flygon> Supercheese: I'd say our ratio is better than America
01:38:35 <Flygon> I'd rather live in a high wage, high cost country (that generally infers a strong economy)
01:38:46 <Flygon> Than a low wage, low cost country (eg. USA)
01:40:38 <peter1138> this is not the most practical terminal...
01:41:02 <peter1138> /usr/lib/xscreensaver/apple2 -text -fast -program /bin/bash
01:41:16 <Flygon> peter1138: Try AVISynth
01:41:23 <Flygon> THEN you'll see impractical
01:41:36 <Flygon> Even worse: I actually tried programing in AviSynth
01:41:49 <Flygon> Which is difficult when you... it's complex
01:42:16 <glx> I did only basic stuff in avs
01:44:47 <Flygon> I should try to find some of my more complex scripts... but a friend prolly has it
01:45:04 <Flygon> I think we somehow ended up creating a semi-automated .bat-.avs hybrid solution
01:45:48 <glx> .bat creating the .avs and passing it to x264
01:45:58 <Flygon> The .bat ended up being a program that... it's complex
01:46:09 <Flygon> My friend and I used to do shizz for TASVideos
01:46:50 <glx> usually my avs is just open a video and deinterlace it
01:47:14 <Flygon> I never had to deal with deinterlacing, thankfully
03:55:16 <Supercheese> Hmm, seems I no longer have to include whitespace at the front of the vehicle name, OTTD is OK with oversized purchase sprites now :D
04:01:42 <Supercheese> Blarg, accidentally overwrote my language file :<
04:01:48 <Supercheese> have to redo all the strings
04:05:42 <Supercheese> ah well, only had 3 strings in that grf
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05:00:03 <Flygon> Interesting feature for OpenTTD
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05:40:47 <peter1138> along with crazy-long power cables?
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08:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that can easily be done by objects
08:32:46 <Supercheese> Could even borrow the construction stage for Oil Rig, no extra sprites needed
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09:36:22 <andythenorth> FISH 2 needs some kind of passenger comfort factor
09:37:08 <frosch123> passengers aging on board?
09:37:31 <frosch123> so, that's why people on cruise ships are always so old
09:40:03 <andythenorth> I am not sure either
09:40:27 <andythenorth> in a game, do you ever notice amount paid for cargo?
09:41:01 <Pikka> as long as it's not so unbalanced that a vehicle makes extraordinary amounts of money, or doesn't make any money, no
09:41:37 <andythenorth> and if it's really unbalanced....?
09:41:55 <Pikka> well since you already have capacity, speed, running cost, purchase cost, etc to balance, why introduce another?
09:42:38 <Pikka> perhaps if you need it to keep things reasonable for small and slow vehicles
09:42:39 <andythenorth> standard 'this vehicle costs more but earns more per mile' tradeoff?
09:42:52 <andythenorth> hovercraft make people sick (for examples)
09:44:46 <Pikka> seems like unnecessary complexity that won't change the way people play the game at all
09:45:20 <Pikka> and I say that as a veteran creator of a lot of unnecessary complexity :)
09:46:55 <Pikka> I can see how very slow or very small ships might need a boost in profitability, but I'd make it a quiet internal balance thing rather than a "feature"
09:49:54 <Pikka> small planes and helicopters in av8 get a cargo aging bonus...
09:50:34 <andythenorth> I was hoping someone would talk me out of it ;)
09:50:48 <andythenorth> I'd have to provide buy menu info strings and all that crap
09:50:57 <Supercheese> Hidden feature sounds good
09:50:59 <andythenorth> Pikka: you played a FISH 2 game?
09:51:26 <Pikka> I don't think so, still using the bananas version
09:51:30 <Pikka> in my ancient test game :)
09:51:49 <andythenorth> there is a v2 test release on babaaaabanas
09:51:52 <Pikka> I'll update everything once I have some 19th c houses and industries to test
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09:53:28 <andythenorth> could use some feedback, I can't be bothered to play a game :P
09:53:32 <andythenorth> nor do I have time
09:53:43 <andythenorth> due to baby holding
09:54:14 <andythenorth> if there was a new TaI I might bother o_O
09:54:34 <Pikka> for a given value of "new"
09:54:39 <Pikka> we'll have to do it multiplayer :)
09:57:06 <V453000> I always super enjoy playing with new features I make :D Kind of a reward to me
09:58:01 * andythenorth needs a new CargoGoal script
10:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: combine it with destinations? ;)
10:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or like "produce 5000 goods in 4 different factories"
10:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or have successive goals "produce 1000 steel in the first 5 years, produce 3000 oil in the next 5 years, produce 10000 goods in the next 5 years" [potentially randomized after each 5 year period, so you need a generic enough network]
10:04:12 <V453000> build 1000 trains. goal :p
10:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: build no more than 80 trains of (average) 3 tile length :)#
10:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> TTO limits forever!!
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10:09:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: write a GS :)
10:09:52 <andythenorth> use the new story book API
10:12:00 <andythenorth> maybe I should try NG French trains
10:14:49 <andythenorth> but which truck set? o_O
10:15:05 <Supercheese> unless not those kind of trucks :P
10:15:34 <andythenorth> BANDIT is a non-thing
10:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV has three trucks now, but not sure how useful that is. haven't got around to testing it yet
10:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and still a 1920 startdate only :/
10:20:04 <frosch123> you can start with nuts then :p
10:21:07 <frosch123> though i think i should my next game way later than usual, so i get some rainbow things
10:23:19 <V453000> 2000+ is particularly fun, but 0.4.0 will introduce wtf from 1960s :)
10:25:06 <frosch123> i am still unsure whether unicorn trams should be available rather in 1200 or in 2200
10:26:45 <Supercheese> Make it a parameter
10:26:59 <andythenorth> bonsoir planetmaker
10:27:06 <planetmaker> and... merry christmas to everyone still here :-)
10:27:20 <andythenorth> V453000: how about a nuts truck set?
10:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but trucks are boring because they are inefficient...
10:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> [paraphrasing V453000] :p
10:31:17 <andythenorth> you have pre-empted my next question :P
10:31:22 <andythenorth> does a truck set need to be complete?
10:31:35 <andythenorth> or should I just work with the 'trains are best' assumptions of the game
10:31:43 <andythenorth> and only provide a limited range of trucks
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10:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> afair #openttdcoop did a truck-only game :)
10:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you should define "completeness" first
10:36:22 <V453000> it isnr about inefficiency but abou triviality. trais have tons more possibillities what to do. also, egrvts works similarly to nuts already
10:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be small trucks and large trucks, and each of them should be refittable to every cargo
10:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if that is "complete", then yes
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10:38:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: refittable to every cargo is proven not to work :(
10:38:16 <andythenorth> assuming that auto-refit is also wanted
10:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: indeed, that's why i hate airports so much. there's nothing you can manage.
10:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and they are hopelessly inefficient if unmanaged...
10:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd have to timetable the planes, so they don't block each other so much
10:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and there are no means to manage timetables either
10:40:04 <V453000> hm we just dont use them mostly
10:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i want to use them sometimes, but then get to the same conclusion again
10:41:31 <andythenorth> planes are for firs supplies :P
10:41:45 <andythenorth> specifically using av8
10:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: helicopters :)
10:42:01 <andythenorth> need more small airports though :P
10:42:45 <V453000> the helicopters with crates are awesome i will give you that :) but making supplying with various train system is more interesting :p
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10:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i meant that every cargo should be transportable with both a small and a large type of truck, not that every truck needs to be refittable to every cargo
10:59:41 <andythenorth> so one small truck, no trailer
10:59:50 <andythenorth> one large articulated truck
11:00:00 <andythenorth> to cover each group of cargos
11:13:44 <V453000> frosch123: what was fixed about the regearing missing from -none- menu filter?
11:13:59 <V453000> just including regearing to none?
11:16:52 <frosch123> yes, "none" displayed stuff which was refittable to nothing; now it considers only real cargos
11:17:00 <frosch123> i.e. those without the SPECIAL cargo class
11:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so that
11:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 'll fail again when people use passengers as pseudo-cargo
11:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid a "special" cargo slot
11:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. by returning a 0 capacity by callback
11:20:48 <V453000> passengers as special? :D sounds better than pay in cola trucks on mars
11:20:58 <frosch123> yup, that's why i consider the special cargo as not that bad :)
11:21:19 <frosch123> it's at least marked as special
11:21:27 <frosch123> while pax will screw over everything
11:21:38 <frosch123> where is krinn when one needs him? :p
11:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a nice idea in theory, but there are too many conflicts with industry sets
11:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> like you can't just add NARS to the USA scenario (ECS version)
11:22:44 <frosch123> that's just because of weird cargo limitations
11:23:05 <frosch123> it just needs more slots :)
11:23:18 <Zuu> As long as towns don't produce the special pax cargo, it should be handled by eg. SuperLib.Helper.GetPAXCargo()
11:23:21 <frosch123> 32 for pseudo town effects
11:23:38 <frosch123> (separating them ensures that noone used them all)
11:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: no "special pax cargo"
11:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: just passengers (with cargo subtypes)
11:23:55 <Zuu> It is even so that it use the PAX cargo with maximum town production as passengers.
11:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the assumption was that every possible set out there contains this cargo
11:24:14 <frosch123> Zuu: the problem is that the ai will see vehicle as transporting passengers, while they in fact do not :p
11:24:38 <frosch123> as in pax, but capacity 0
11:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: so you don't have to include cargo definitions in your vehicle set
11:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: imho the solution would be to allow "subtype" refitting with no cargo
11:25:23 <frosch123> Zuu: well, if the ai is lucky it will attach wagons to engines anyway
11:25:50 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: or just a separate thing to subtypes :p
11:25:55 <frosch123> where is andy when you need him? :p
11:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: something like MB's "views" idea, but additionally with ability to change stats
11:27:27 <andythenorth> just give every vehicle 2 cargo slots
11:27:30 <andythenorth> that would be interesting
11:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wouldn't solve the problem
11:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: although it would solve a different problem :)
11:29:46 <andythenorth> it would make refitting more complicated :P
11:30:11 <andythenorth> but the second slot could also be used as storage :P
11:30:46 <V453000> how sdo you mean that? :D livestock/coal train andy?
11:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that excactly it should not :p
11:31:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: main difference would be that you can also change the "view" without changing the cargo, even if the vehicle carries a cargo
11:31:35 <frosch123> would remove those silly 256 refit options of heqs :p
11:32:45 <andythenorth> is 'view' available as an action 2 var?
11:32:49 <andythenorth> it would kind of have to be :P
11:32:55 <andythenorth> which would lead to....abuses
11:34:04 <V453000> btw why cant extra power per wagon be defined by a switch?
11:34:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: the problem is usually not who can read the var, but who and when it can be assigned :p
11:34:11 <Eddi|zuHause> for any sane usage it shoulud
11:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> especially it needs to be available during purchase
11:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so i can use it with the articulated callbaack
11:35:07 <frosch123> you can only dynamically decide whether a wagon is powered
11:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> to modify number of wagons
11:35:21 <frosch123> so, you can give every wagon the same power, but only make every third wagon powered :p
11:35:46 <andythenorth> if there is any possibility of seriously implementing views...please let me know o_O before I rework BANDIT set design (again)
11:36:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: remains the question whether views can be changed after purchase :)
11:36:18 <frosch123> or whether there should be two views
11:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in my use case, you shouldn't be able to change the "view" after purchase
11:36:26 <frosch123> one fixed on purchase, the other mory dynamic
11:36:31 <andythenorth> view changes in depot only
11:36:39 <andythenorth> can be done after purchase
11:36:58 <frosch123> so you would have three things to mess up: purchase view, refit view, refit cargo subtype :p
11:37:09 <andythenorth> apart from being clunky, subtypes worked fine for most cases until auto-refit arrived
11:37:14 <V453000> like switch saying that based on position in consist?
11:39:44 <V453000> hm... currently i ended with static power bonus per wagon but I will see what I can do with this
11:40:16 <V453000> logic was I want trains which increase efficiency with length
11:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or we "deprecate" cargo subtype, and make only "cargo" and {one of "cargo suptype", "dynamic view" or "static view"} available at the same time
11:40:33 <V453000> static bonus already does that sort of
11:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you can also simply count the length in the power callback for the engine
11:42:16 <V453000> I do that for single head trains, for dual head I need more than 32k power
11:43:36 <V453000> static bonus is probably best solution in the end
11:44:06 <V453000> least confusing, valid in my logic, but not breaking short trains
11:44:15 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, allowing either dynamic or static view would simplify stuff :p
11:45:01 <andythenorth> newgrf sets a bit
11:45:31 <andythenorth> authors might want some views to be private
11:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it would also need no change to the vehicle struct, since the same 8 bit are used in either case
11:45:34 <andythenorth> others exposed to player
11:46:01 <andythenorth> cargo subtype should really go
11:46:22 <V453000> what are these views you talk about?
11:46:30 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that is no criterion
11:47:37 <frosch123> V453000: something which allows regearing, different number of tram wagons, liveries and such; but without the term "cargo"
11:48:13 <V453000> probably nothing for me
11:48:34 <frosch123> V453000: it would allow to select the colour of the slime trace on purchase
11:49:21 <andythenorth> so for example, set a ship to be a ferry (cabins) or utility vessel (open decks)
11:49:28 <andythenorth> or set a truck to have 2 trailers or 3
11:49:36 <andythenorth> or set trailers to use skis or wheels
11:49:47 <V453000> need slime tracw first... though I guess itapplies to the local train recolouring
11:49:57 <andythenorth> V453000: you should make some trains based on Doom
11:50:47 <V453000> that isnt unlikely to happen in next version
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11:52:31 <V453000> can you somehow refit between views by order like subclasses?
11:53:27 <frosch123> i guess they key issue with views would be to disallow them to depend on cargo or consist
11:53:28 <V453000> other than that looks awesome
11:53:44 <frosch123> i.e. a purchase-list only thing (even if changeable after purchase)
11:54:12 <frosch123> then you could allow autorefit to only refit certain views into specific other views
11:54:45 <frosch123> V453000: i think the main idea from a vehicle set point of view is to allow more vehicles but with a short purchase list
11:54:56 <frosch123> by making it a 2-step selection
11:55:27 <V453000> same vehicles with same stats? :d
11:57:42 <V453000> guess I best keep local subclass refit as is
11:57:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: for me specifically it solves 2 cases: one graphical, one gameplay
11:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: view decides which cargos are autorefit-able?
11:58:57 <andythenorth> actually does it change the value of the 4 cargo props?
11:59:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it cannot change properties, only callbacks
11:59:52 <andythenorth> but cb36 changes props...
11:59:56 <andythenorth> which might read the view
12:00:11 <andythenorth> and extend cb36 to change props 28/29/2C/2D (trains)
12:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but as long as the view cannot be changed by cb36, that is fine
12:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot return lists in a callback
12:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can have a callback that takes the cargo as parameter and returns yes/no/maybe
12:01:45 <andythenorth> set props 28 etc as lists of lists :P
12:02:01 <andythenorth> return the index that you want
12:02:10 <andythenorth> i.e. list of lists in the action 0
12:02:17 <andythenorth> cb returns an index to required lsit
12:02:28 <andythenorth> brb, presents to wrap
12:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> ... only 5 hours to unwrwap presents :p
12:03:06 <frosch123> hmm, maybe the dynamic view thingie could be allowed/disallowed via a cb
12:03:21 <frosch123> so, only certain views are refittable to other views
12:03:31 <frosch123> while not changing the name/meaning of a view
12:04:17 <drac_boy> eddi heh sounds like you can't wait to see what you got?
12:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so i can change from "4 wagons, liquid" to "4 wagons, bulk", but not to "8 wagons, liquid"?
12:04:52 <frosch123> yeah, or disallow any refitting after 20 years
12:05:11 <V453000> o god I hate typing on tablet
12:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: "S-Bahn livery is only available between 19xx and 19yy"
12:06:59 <frosch123> well, it will remain available to those which already have it
12:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> unless the grf author overrides that by other means ;)
12:08:47 <V453000> liveries should always be available in full range tbh... visual variety is always nice.. the more the better
12:09:17 <planetmaker> for the realistic-minded people there could be a parameter to forbid it. Or vice versa
12:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, such a parameter was planned for CETS
12:11:40 <drac_boy> V453000 I have always thought a bit about that. offering different colours of tank wagons at random
12:11:55 <drac_boy> after all some could be yellow to represent Shell ... blue would had looked like Esso .. etc
12:12:14 <drac_boy> better than one long string of tank wagons that all look the same
12:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you can already do that
12:12:26 <planetmaker> no problem to do so.
12:12:38 <planetmaker> e.g. OpenGFX+Trains does so with the container wagons. Random colours for those
12:12:54 <planetmaker> could of course become user-selectable, but meh. Too much choice ;-)
12:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the DBSet has a parameter to randomize individual wagons or the whole train as one
12:13:20 <drac_boy> V453000 and if you want to go overboard, look at the upcoming French Narrow Gauge set .. he actually has each locomotives in several different railray liveries. some of the locos have 8+ different liveries to manually select from tho 0_o
12:13:36 <V453000> I think colour randomization is an amazing tool to make stuff look good, you just need some part of the vehicle which keeps it unified so it doesnt distort too much
12:14:16 <V453000> like random sprites for full goods etc
12:15:32 <drac_boy> planetmaker I think a compromise between manual and automatic liveries is probably the best choice
12:16:20 <planetmaker> yeah. And where to draw that line... that's a personal preference :-)
12:16:34 <drac_boy> for example in dbsetxl you can choose to have the rhinegold livery passenger trains (cream+red) but it randomize the domes/diner/etc on its own instead
12:16:35 <planetmaker> which could be set via NewGRF parameter, possibly
12:19:20 <V453000> I have randoms everywhere, strupes on wagond, slight differences in wagon colours, random cargoes like cows/pigs/sheep/pikn-elephants, or containers of x colours, crates barels, .. though for pax rrains where you want whole train to look the same a livery caro subclass refit is probably most suitable.. but hey you can add random to that too!
12:25:14 <frosch123> he, keep on entertaining me!
12:25:30 <frosch123> i have to run every 5 minutes to the oven, in between i have 2 minutes to read chat
12:27:11 <drac_boy> V453000 one of the thing that I had sometimes thought about (and haven't seen in any grfs yet but I haven't tried all of them tho) was to have liveries on passenger wagons made specific to different generations and the kind of locomotives
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12:28:34 <drac_boy> like for example in north america an original heavyweight coach could only be taken by a steam locomotive or boiler heating fitted diesel locomotive while a modernized heavyweight or any lightweight coach would require a diesel locomotive with head end power (or the use of a electric genset wagon behind the locomotive)
12:28:55 <drac_boy> don't know if any players might want that kind of "stictness" in locomotive mating but mm
12:30:09 <V453000> just specific attach settings :)
12:31:03 <frosch123> i think there are some sets which do such things
12:31:13 <frosch123> like requiring break wagons and such
12:31:13 <V453000> for example my maglev trains are fasrtest but can only haul small wagons... balance :)
12:31:18 <frosch123> they are quite cumbersome to play
12:32:41 <drac_boy> frosch123 well a break wagon wouldn't had been needed if air brakes had been introduced earlier? :)
12:33:11 <drac_boy> in usa they were only required more or less for train safety reason .. but the train still could had came to a stop on its own without any caboose nevertheless
12:33:42 <drac_boy> I'm just generalized a bit too much tho maybe
12:33:54 <V453000> brake wagons are just wtf to me :)
12:35:53 <frosch123> drac_boy: if you want such "realism" features, you should provide them only as eyecandy
12:36:03 <frosch123> but not make it mandatory to know them to use the trains
12:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS won't include "Güterzugbegleitwagen" in the core set
12:36:55 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: matching the date? it's not 1963 :p
12:36:56 <V453000> eexactly Eddi :) though how does db set randomize that? Idont think it is just random
12:37:25 <drac_boy> frosch123 well you should tell that to uk for having too many unbraked wagons? ;)
12:37:32 <frosch123> V453000: rerandomize trigger when wagon is empty
12:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that particular case was actually an openttd bug. when buying the train, the per-train-randomisation wasn't done correctly
12:37:56 <frosch123> V453000: tankers can also use build date
12:38:04 <frosch123> so stuff bought at the same time has the same colour
12:38:23 <V453000> tghere is somethinhg more though
12:40:10 <V453000> when there is cargo waiting in the station, it is random within wagon, if station hasno csrgo/good service, then it is random but the same within a train
12:40:44 <drac_boy> I kinda want to ask this...
12:40:50 <andythenorth> present wrapping concluded
12:41:18 <drac_boy> is it only north america that had these centerbeam wagons? the one that look like flatcars except for walled ends .. and a large beam 'wall' running down the middle
12:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you set the triggers correctly?
12:41:39 <V453000> andythenorth: survived? :)
12:42:02 <andythenorth> so....what if a 'view' was composed of an action 0 and action 3?
12:42:11 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: in db set, my triggers are just normal random
12:42:23 <andythenorth> i.e. each ID has n action 0s / 3s
12:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so then how would i do curve images?
12:44:34 <andythenorth> how are you planning to do them?
12:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i do them by reading curve info of previous/next vehicle
12:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so i need an action 2
12:46:45 <frosch123> andythenorth: don't make stuff more complicated than it needs to
12:47:59 <andythenorth> switching action 0s seems quite conceptually simple as an interface for authors to me
12:48:17 <andythenorth> compared to endless switches / varact 2s checking view var each time :)
12:50:22 <V453000> endless switches ^^my pax wagon switch has 1300 lines
12:53:25 <planetmaker> :-) Sounds decent. But not enormous
12:55:03 <V453000> anyway,i will be going towards the christmas mayhem, have a nice time!
12:56:32 <andythenorth> I liked the idea that 'view' is like 'view' on a model in mvc
12:56:44 <drac_boy> anyone in here have any thought on some alternative term to 'boxcab' or thats pretty much the only one there is? I'm just trying to think of if theres another name that would be easier to recognize in other countries or not
12:56:53 <andythenorth> otherwise we might as well just call it 'arbitrary storage on newgrf vehicles'
13:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "arbitrary storage" would mean you can assign to it during callbacks and stuff
13:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a whole different type of insanity :p
13:10:18 <drac_boy> quick grf check - 'short tonnes' is used .. not 'long tonnes' right?
13:10:27 <drac_boy> or was it the other one
13:10:41 * drac_boy hates all these names-alike weights >_<
13:15:20 <frosch123> all tons in ottd are metric tons
13:15:28 <frosch123> independent of what the translator called them
13:15:41 <drac_boy> thanks, now I know which tons to convert to
13:15:51 <drac_boy> ton .. short ton .. long ton .. etc ... it can get a little confusing at first I guess
13:16:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so how do views help you do curves?
13:16:56 <drac_boy> at least tractive effort isn't too hard .. so far I know of tf (tons-metric force), kn (kilonewton), and lbf (pounds force)
13:27:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: how would a view be chosen? On purchase menu (as per MB mockup)? Or with a new menu after construction?
13:32:10 <frosch123> always in the purchase menu
13:32:19 <frosch123> if the grf allows also after purchase similiar to refit
13:32:25 <frosch123> likely not via order
13:32:36 <frosch123> but via autoreplace
13:33:57 <frosch123> i might try to write a spec when i am done with baking :)
13:34:19 <andythenorth> it seems (mostly) straightforward
13:34:30 <andythenorth> I forsee a future containing a lot of cb36 though :P
13:34:39 <andythenorth> although, for RVs that's nothing new :)
13:34:41 <frosch123> cookies are not like cake which you just shovel into the oven and then do something else :)
13:35:02 <andythenorth> cookies are what you shovel into toddlers
13:35:15 <frosch123> yup, but only after baking
13:35:40 <frosch123> not necesasarily directly after though
14:01:34 <andythenorth> still working? :P
14:02:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: is it tasteful to use UKRS 2 in arctic?
14:03:00 <frosch123> poor belugas, i with i could file him some of the fresh cookies
14:04:11 * andythenorth ponders a cargo goal game, single player
14:04:44 <andythenorth> what amount for goal though, assuming 1910-2010 play length?
14:05:48 <SpComb> christmas is quite the season for playing openttd, I should have a game myself
14:06:44 <SpComb> vanilla without any GRFs :P
14:11:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: i played sv singleplayer, 30 years, 10 industries, 300 ton per industry and quarter, 10k per quarter total
14:11:39 <frosch123> 100k is way too few for 100 years nocargoal
14:12:10 <frosch123> ok, then you need a big map :p
14:12:14 <frosch123> else you will run out of space
14:12:16 <andythenorth> it's going to be insane :P
14:12:25 <andythenorth> 30 industries in one town
14:13:32 <andythenorth> 0 suitable towns found :P
14:14:01 <andythenorth> 30 is too many I guess
14:17:15 <andythenorth> works with 17 industries and low towns
14:18:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: use less towns
14:18:48 <andythenorth> with FIRS basic economies SV not so good
14:18:50 <frosch123> it requires a certain area for the town per industry
14:19:04 <andythenorth> most cargos in Basic have only one source
14:19:11 <andythenorth> 17 paper mills is boring :P
14:20:54 <andythenorth> frosch123: does SV account for max possible production at a primary?
14:21:06 <andythenorth> not sure I can get 200t out of these farms ;)
14:21:38 <frosch123> funding primaries is part of the concept
14:22:11 <andythenorth> I mean the max possible per instance
14:22:23 <andythenorth> I guess it can't check that actually
14:22:28 <andythenorth> due to production cb
14:23:19 <frosch123> it is your job to produce enough stuff
14:23:41 <frosch123> or are you playing with primary industry as goal industry?
14:23:59 <frosch123> imo that does nor work properly and should be removed :)
14:24:13 <frosch123> though it might work with firs supplies :p
14:35:46 <frosch123> the load was too heavy
14:37:22 <drac_boy> frosch123 how can that be? unless you telling me that FIRS has higher weight class than ECS or original
14:38:45 * drac_boy is just trying to understand since I thought 1 ton of goods in original was same as 1 ton of goods in custom industry etc
14:39:08 <andythenorth> some kind of multiplier is being applied to cargo refits
14:39:25 <andythenorth> so refit #3 for these HEQS trams results in 45t capacity not 75t
14:39:58 <drac_boy> oh thats making more sense now :/
14:40:13 <andythenorth> it's a FIRS issue
14:40:40 <andythenorth> or at least the issue disappears if I remove FIRS
14:40:54 <frosch123> drac_boy: it's just wearing out; andy played more often with heqs than anyone else
14:41:38 <drac_boy> heh well I've used the HEQS trams a lot tho
14:41:56 <drac_boy> being able to have a "heavy" short distance freight route with no need for signals/etc kinda is rather nice
14:42:14 <drac_boy> never ever used the road vehicles so much tho (well..sometimes the logging trucks and other reasonable ones tho)
14:43:14 <drac_boy> I know theres nothing that can be done about it for the time being apparently but I just hate having to see the tram overhead wire all the times tho :|
14:46:13 <andythenorth> drac_boy: transparent mode
14:47:11 <drac_boy> andythenorth maybe but then the wired trams would look silly with no wires
14:47:18 <drac_boy> so yeah thats why I don't know if I should complain or not :P
14:49:20 <andythenorth> so...what cargo action 0 prop causes the cargo amount to be multiplied by 0.6 in some newgrf vehicles (but not all)
14:49:32 <drac_boy> andythenorth I forgot the url, remind me again if your tropical climate had copper ore just like the original one did?
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14:51:22 <drac_boy> eddi CORRECT .. that kind of thing is why I wish there was two choices of tram tracks .. but thats too unlikely so I wouldn't press it ;)
14:51:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is exactly HEQS-ish
14:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so how do views help you do curves? <-- it doesn't. i do curves already, but i can't do several lengths (8, 10, 12 wagons...) at the same time
14:52:44 * andythenorth wonders wtf the capacity multiplier is defaulting to 0.6 :P
14:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the HEQS scheme of making wagons invisible collides with the curve-articulation
14:53:05 <Eddi|zuHause> as i can't make wagons 0 length
14:53:10 <andythenorth> that's the price of elegant hacks :)
14:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> each wagon can only be contracted to 3/8
14:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i get insane checks for which vehicle now has to be taken as the reference for the curvature
14:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if i had "purchase-time" views, i could just skip adding some wagons in the articulation callback and be done with it
14:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing complicated about it
14:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you just can't modify the number of wagons afterwards
14:55:16 * drac_boy still has to see about using invisible articulated wagon pixel to get one single wagon to actually carry two different cargos yet
14:55:30 <drac_boy> but thats for another time, still busy with locomotives alone yet
14:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that's trivially easy
14:55:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: similarly, that would also be a perfectly acceptable way to set number of trailing vehicles for RVs
14:56:41 <andythenorth> so I have to set capacity_multiplier per cargo
14:56:42 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm only thing I'm wondering about tho is can you set everything to zero as in 0 ton, 0 runcost, etc for the invisible part?
14:57:16 <drac_boy> wish I had some idea but I don't think I'm any help with the multiplier thing sorry andythenorth :)
14:57:26 <Belugas> andythenorth: yes, but that's the last day before january, so it's fine by me
14:57:35 <andythenorth> thanks, that was a really useful highlight drac_boy
14:57:38 <Belugas> plus, i've got plenty or rum to keep up ;)
14:57:53 <drac_boy> belugas don't drink 20 rum bottles in one single sitting tho? :P
14:58:05 <andythenorth> FIRS 0.7.5 didn't appear to set capacity_multiplier prop
14:58:14 <Belugas> naaaa... one per hour would be good enough
14:58:18 <andythenorth> nvm, I'll just set the fucker :(
14:58:35 <drac_boy> belugas ok thats fair
14:59:33 <Belugas> fair and safe ;) code wise...
14:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> happy tree-decorating time anyway people...
14:59:47 <Belugas> although i don't expect to deliver top notch uality
14:59:59 <Belugas> you too, sir Eddi|zuHause
15:03:21 <andythenorth> so which cargos don't have capacity_multiplier 1?
15:04:22 <frosch123> pax, mail, goods, candy
15:05:08 <frosch123> drac_boy: can it also be used for beer?
15:06:19 <drac_boy> frosch123 if you mean beer as in bottles packed into a crate and labelled as FOOD .. I don't see why not?
15:06:49 <frosch123> true, one could lock the driver's cabin
15:07:29 <drac_boy> so cargo carrying locomotives or not so interested in them? :)
15:07:39 <andythenorth> apparently supplies are 1:1
15:08:09 <andythenorth> wonder why we didn't make them 2:1 like goods
15:09:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: HEQS needs some diesel trams like the one you posted
15:09:14 <andythenorth> 'needs' is too strong a word :P
15:14:29 <peter1138> oh fucking gnome 3 and your fucking shitty fucking wanky crap
15:14:46 <drac_boy> heh I think the whole gnome and unity things are really failing at it badly :/
15:15:18 <planetmaker> what's the german translation of "ambient" for sound effects context?
15:15:49 <planetmaker> best I can up with is "Landschaft". But it's rather a subset of the actual meaning
15:16:31 <peter1138> gnome-shell crashes when i unmaximize openttd
15:16:53 <peter1138> switched to terminal and killed it
15:17:03 <frosch123> planetmaker: hintergrund oder umgebung
15:17:05 <peter1138> it comes back up thinking my dual monitors is one, so it's all stretched
15:17:13 <peter1138> so i kill it again, and it crashes and wipes out its config
15:17:17 <frosch123> planetmaker: Umgebungsgeräusche likely
15:17:55 <andythenorth> peter1138: would santa approve of that language? :)
15:18:18 <Pikka> goodnight all and merry christmas
15:18:19 <peter1138> as a 34 year old...
15:18:37 <andythenorth> peter1138: 1978?
15:19:01 <andythenorth> frosch123 SV with multiple cargos?
15:19:13 <andythenorth> I know that's not the point...but :)
15:19:42 <andythenorth> give it mutliple challenge stages? Completing one unlocks the next?
15:25:51 <planetmaker> yeah, that's good, frosch123 :-) Umgebungsgeräusche
15:26:55 <Amis> How can I check if BaNaNaS is online?
15:28:05 <andythenorth> I have a town called 'barningstone on sea'
15:28:09 <andythenorth> in the middle of a land mass :P
15:29:15 <drac_boy> andythenorth heh town name randomizers don't know "where" they are on the map apparently
15:29:40 <Amis> So it that site is offline but I still can't fetch content it means something is wrong at me I guess? Sometimes the list under any "Check online content" stays empty without any feedback on what's happening
15:29:54 <drac_boy> I've seem these moments where theres just a very tiny piece of island sticking in middle of ocean .. and yet the scenario editor builds a town right on it ... never can grow bigger than 2 road tiles and 3-5 houses forever anyway :)
15:30:49 <andythenorth> pikka's finescale tracks is borked in the construction menu
15:31:16 <frosch123> Amis: firefall or proxy (if you have one)
15:32:30 <Amis> frosch123, I tested it with firewalls off but it DOES work sometimes. I just download about 100MB
15:32:35 <Amis> But now it's empty again
15:32:45 <Amis> Is there a limit of some kind?
15:33:40 <andythenorth> not borked if CHIPS isn't present
15:33:43 <andythenorth> CHIPS is *really* broken
15:33:52 <andythenorth> how do I pull a grf from bananas?
15:39:39 <drac_boy> sorry about asking many things at times but I still have another short question...
15:39:51 <andythenorth> file a DMCA takedown notice with the mirror hosts?
15:40:11 <drac_boy> do you just call them 'brake platform' or what would you call these certain covered vans that have a door facing open (but still roofed at times) platform at one end .. containing the manual brake wheel?
15:40:21 <andythenorth> setting up a game is a lot of hassle. Not sure I can be bothered to do it again :P
15:40:23 <planetmaker> yes. But do so without asking for removal first, andythenorth
15:40:29 <drac_boy> swizterland had a lot of them for starters
15:40:30 <andythenorth> is there anything I can call like 'reset_grm'
15:40:54 <andythenorth> finding and configuring 10-15 grfs is way too much effort
15:41:02 <planetmaker> there's grf presets
15:41:16 <planetmaker> one of which is "none"
15:41:53 <andythenorth> meh, I'm going to read a book instead :)
15:42:08 <andythenorth> stupid buggy grfs
15:42:26 <andythenorth> I could update the description on Bananas for CHIPS? "Don't use this grf" ??
15:42:29 <planetmaker> defaults are borked?
15:42:40 <andythenorth> CHIPS breaks other grfs
15:42:46 <andythenorth> and removing CHIPS from my game doesn't fix that
15:43:17 <planetmaker> and how do you know it's chips?
15:43:23 <andythenorth> causes Pikka's finescale tracks grf to use the wrong construction menu sprites
15:43:37 <andythenorth> I think it's CHIPS because the issue is reproducible with CHIPS present
15:43:43 <planetmaker> that's not your problem. It's pikka's
15:43:44 <andythenorth> and CHIPS is already known-broken
15:44:04 <planetmaker> track newgrfs can provide their own sprites for the menu where no other grf can interfere really
15:44:11 <andythenorth> I reported a similar issue with CanSet and got a dressing down from OzTrans
15:44:21 <planetmaker> that's not surprising really
15:45:04 <andythenorth> if I file a bug against Pikka, he's just going to be pissed off with me :P
15:47:19 <planetmaker> btw... how is pikka's finescale tracks broken with chips? Looks like it should for me
15:48:26 <peter1138> yeah no problem here either
15:51:03 <planetmaker> gah. Who changed Landschaftsbau into Landschaftsveränderungen?!
15:53:05 <frosch123> planetmaker: "Erdarbeiten" :p
15:53:23 <planetmaker> well... that's less than "Landschaftsbau"
15:53:35 <planetmaker> as it includes planting trees
15:54:08 <andythenorth> can't reproduce the issue now :(
15:54:21 <planetmaker> lol. Probably changed too many times the newgrf ;-)
15:54:36 <peter1138> andythenorth, do you mean the railway construction menu or the station construction menu?
15:54:43 <andythenorth> rail construction
15:54:52 <andythenorth> station construction is known broken for CHIPS
15:55:34 <peter1138> at least, railtype wise :p
15:55:53 <andythenorth> the issue is AV8
15:56:05 <peter1138> av8 messes up finescale rails?
15:57:08 <planetmaker> sounds highly improbable
15:57:49 <planetmaker> and yes. no issue with chips, finescale and av8 present
15:58:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, and you always create a new map, right?
15:59:24 <andythenorth> I did when I thought the issue was chips
15:59:54 <andythenorth> let's try adding one grf at a time...
15:59:57 <planetmaker> you have other grfs?
16:00:13 <planetmaker> can* is likely to interfere anywhere :D
16:02:19 <drac_boy> correct me if I'm wrong but weights can be displayed in decimal places but not cargos? (as in a wagon can be 7.5t but cargo only can be either 7t or 8t not 7.5t)
16:03:04 <frosch123> weight can be fractional, but pieces of cargo cannot
16:03:20 <planetmaker> capacity: 25.345 passengers
16:03:21 <frosch123> but that's a thing of the cargo, not of the vehicle
16:04:12 <drac_boy> thanks, just wanted to be sure
16:04:25 <drac_boy> guess I'll have to round the wagon cargo capacity down a little bit :->
16:04:39 <drac_boy> (except if its .8 or .9 I'll round it up then)
16:07:37 <andythenorth> can't reproduce this issue now
16:09:25 <andythenorth> got it, on a fresh new game
16:12:21 <andythenorth> removing HEQS eliminates the issue
16:12:24 <andythenorth> I wonder if it's a sprite limit
16:12:38 <planetmaker> try w/o the bridge set
16:13:40 <planetmaker> but does av8 in both forms make sense (independent of anything else)?
16:14:06 <planetmaker> and... why do you use chips 1.0.0 and not 1.0.1?
16:14:37 <andythenorth> 1.0.0 is a mistake
16:15:42 <andythenorth> issue occurs with 1.0.1
16:15:42 <planetmaker> well... tbh, that selection of newgrfs works for me :O
16:16:55 <planetmaker> is your firs different from 0.8.0?
16:17:06 <andythenorth> moderately, just a minor bug fix though
16:17:22 <andythenorth> I'm compiling current ottd head
16:17:24 <planetmaker> ah. Well. Order of grfs matters
16:17:31 <planetmaker> I now got weired stuff, too
16:17:39 <planetmaker> putting finescale tracks last got me there
16:17:45 <andythenorth> finescale tracks needs to be at end of list
16:17:48 <planetmaker> but seems not one of your faults
16:18:00 <planetmaker> for this bug. but generally?
16:18:03 <andythenorth> [needs to be at end to trigger issue]
16:19:14 <frosch123> are you using action a sprites?
16:19:30 <frosch123> esp. the nfo authors fail to use grm for sprites
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16:20:26 <frosch123> so the nfo grfs might mess up stuff for the rest if they are at the end
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16:20:39 <andythenorth> I'll change order a bit
16:20:46 <andythenorth> meanwhile FIRS 0.8.1 can be released :P
16:21:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: btw yesterday Bananas wouldn't accept FIRS upload from my local compile or bananas
16:21:48 <andythenorth> I was using make bundle_zip
16:21:59 <andythenorth> ^^ /s bananas / bundles
16:22:18 <andythenorth> claimed empty pack, or duplicate grfs
16:22:33 <andythenorth> I solved it by using make bundle, then manually tarring myself
16:22:33 <planetmaker> UKRS provides something wrongly... dbg: [sprite] Tried to load recolour sprite #2735 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference
16:23:39 <planetmaker> so, for one thing, UKRS itself does something wrong. FIRS does something wrong in a similar manner with recolouring
16:24:27 <planetmaker> we should tell pikka to fix that ;-)
16:26:35 <andythenorth> what is make bundle_zip for?
16:26:44 <andythenorth> I always use it, but without knowing why
16:26:52 <andythenorth> I wrote down the instructions a few years ago
16:26:54 <planetmaker> it creates a zip file
16:27:04 <planetmaker> with everything needed for distribution. or should do so
16:27:17 <andythenorth> bananas doesn't like that zip :P
16:27:22 <andythenorth> it's happy with the tar :)
16:27:32 <planetmaker> I might have changed that it contains the tar with everything inside. So if bundle_tar works. Just fine
16:27:52 <planetmaker> might be that bananas doesn't like like mygrf.tar.zip
16:30:12 <planetmaker> use bundle_tar instead then
16:30:16 <planetmaker> will give you the tar
16:31:04 <planetmaker> I got the feeling that it might be the sprite limit, andythenorth. Or some grf(s) not using proper grm
16:31:17 <frosch123> what "sprite limit"?
16:32:27 <planetmaker> hm... not sure :D
16:33:37 <andythenorth> I'm going to try that
16:33:52 <andythenorth> although currently failing to get 0.8.1 from bananaasasas
16:33:56 <planetmaker> sorry for the tooltip in the screenshot :-)
16:34:06 <andythenorth> ottd downloaded 116B then decided it was done :)
16:34:06 <planetmaker> I didn't get that. though I updated all newgrfs
16:35:43 <planetmaker> tralllala... naming of the grf failed ;-)
16:36:50 <frosch123> yeah, something about bananas is broken
16:36:52 <planetmaker> which is why I usually upload the zip from the devzone
16:36:58 <planetmaker> download worked for me well
16:37:18 <frosch123> i am at 100% 15/15 but the progress window does not close .)
16:39:53 <frosch123> why is firs lowercase now?
16:40:05 <frosch123> it used to be all uppercase
16:40:42 <andythenorth> probly a mistake
16:40:48 <andythenorth> release early, release often, right? :P
16:43:33 <andythenorth> something is screwy
16:52:29 <planetmaker> let's try to screw bananas... new opengfx
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17:06:26 <andythenorth> I have 2.4MB of FIRS 0.8.1 in content_download/newgrfs
17:06:30 <andythenorth> but ottd won't see it
17:08:04 <planetmaker> and mind, andythenorth, it's called "FIRS industry replacement set r3295M" in the list
17:17:20 <planetmaker> wooo.... r1k for OpenGFX. Update of changelog :D
17:18:26 <peter1138> yeah, sprite limit is, er, 2^24
17:18:38 <peter1138> you're not gonna hit that without other problems
17:19:24 <andythenorth> Rubidium: any way to switch the file for a specific grf version on bananas?
17:19:56 <planetmaker> you mean replace? No(t) really
17:20:07 <planetmaker> Just call it 0.8.2
17:21:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what you can do, though: the displayed version name, that's just fancy stuff and a text string
17:21:43 <planetmaker> as long as the newgrf internal version is different or the md5sum not the same, an update should work
17:21:57 <planetmaker> thus you can simply update there from 0.8.1 to 0.8.1 when md5sum changes
17:22:05 <planetmaker> which it will be with a re-build with different strings
17:22:13 <planetmaker> but I'd not advise that :-)
17:22:22 <planetmaker> same version, different md5sum... is bad
17:22:55 <andythenorth> so usually I do make clean before making bundle
17:23:17 <andythenorth> this time I didn't
17:23:23 <planetmaker> I know... it's a bug in my build system. It bugs me... but... without forcing always a complete re-build I failed to eliminate it
17:23:52 <andythenorth> normally I have more than one bug fix in the release, so I usually do a full build and test of the tag
17:43:27 <peter1138> hmm, my grfcodec doesn't work on trg1r...
17:46:45 <peter1138> infact it only works on trgtr
17:49:02 <peter1138> grfcodec could always decode the base grfs
17:49:12 <planetmaker> bugs with container formats
17:49:28 <planetmaker> several fixes since
17:50:01 <peter1138> glad the authors tested it
17:50:16 <peter1138> is there unit testing now?
17:50:48 <planetmaker> did someone write them?
17:51:10 <peter1138> it was a yes/no question surely
17:51:17 <planetmaker> well. the answer is 'no'
17:51:32 <peter1138> but the repo appears to be hg
17:52:54 <frosch123> no alpine with anything
17:53:13 <SpComb> but it was broken on something there as well, food was broken or something
17:53:14 <planetmaker> public [951:0588d2cd10d0 default] 2012-12-08 16:20 +0100
17:53:52 <peter1138> GRFCodec trunk r950 - Copyright (C) 2000-2005 by Josef Drexler
17:54:15 <SpComb> the real question is what GRFs Raichase plays with
17:54:21 <SpComb> I noticed that he had alpine
17:56:30 <peter1138> so yeah, why does ukrs2 replace wagon sprites with remaps?
17:56:45 <frosch123> SpComb: if you want the landscape, better use ogfx+landscape
17:58:32 <peter1138> it doesn't even use GRM for that
17:58:50 <planetmaker> paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1993/ @ SpComb
17:58:52 <frosch123> even newstations 0.5.1 does not use grm
17:58:54 <SpComb> that's a different game, though
17:59:18 <peter1138> newstations shouldn't need to
17:59:20 <frosch123> grm is apparently too complicated for nfo
17:59:27 <planetmaker> lol, really, frosch123 ?! I'm surprised now. Impressed actually. But... not positively really
17:59:33 <frosch123> peter1138: the recolour sprites for the glass
17:59:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: it's compatible with 0.4 for a reason
18:00:03 <frosch123> it's mostly the same
18:00:40 <peter1138> it's got custom foundations, that's about it isn't it? :p
18:01:02 <peter1138> replacing wagon sprites is odd though
18:01:03 <frosch123> well, the code is mostly the same
18:01:07 <frosch123> no idea about the graphics
18:01:51 <planetmaker> causes dbg messages here always
18:02:08 <peter1138> no finescale sprites are overwritten
18:02:14 <peter1138> so i dunno why its sprites are messed up
18:02:45 <planetmaker> finescale needs to be after all that. But alone it doesn't quite suffice, iirc
18:03:35 <planetmaker> the list andy posted: if you mix the grfs differently, the bug might not be there
18:03:57 <peter1138> i can see it, just trying to work out why
18:04:01 <planetmaker> thus, it's not there, if the 1st grf is the finescale one
18:05:37 <Bad_Brett> merry christmas everyone
18:09:22 <peter1138> i guess something is 16bit that should be 32bit
18:09:26 <peter1138> dbg: [grf] [uk_railway_set_tracks-2.0/pb_trax.grf:11] New sprite set at 67689 of type 16, consisting of 2 sets with 16 views each (total 32)
18:10:58 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest2516
18:10:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:11:33 <SpComb> 'cept DBsetXL doesn't understand OGFX+ Alpine :(
18:14:05 <peter1138> widget_data is 16 bit
18:14:34 <peter1138> andythenorth, there you go, it's an openttd bug all along
18:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: that's why i use a hacked alpine that doesn't interfere with industry sets
18:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> specifically i skipped all the industry code, and i added food acceptance to houses
18:18:38 <peter1138> fixes the issue but i don't know if it causes any other issues
18:18:44 <planetmaker> nice find :-) And now fix it before... the world ends :D
18:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in 2038? :)
18:19:01 <frosch123> what window is affected?
18:19:22 <peter1138> railway construction toolbar when railtype sprites are loaded > 65535
18:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause> or what's the next world-ends-day?
18:19:57 <planetmaker> I don't see how that should fire back, peter1138
18:20:03 <peter1138> yeah but widget_data is only 16 bit for a reason
18:20:10 <peter1138> maybe just historical
18:20:36 <frosch123> do the matrices still work?
18:20:54 <frosch123> iirc they use widget_data to store number of rows and columns in a bitfield-fashion
18:21:39 <peter1138> yeah, they seems ok
18:23:04 <peter1138> also possible i missed out some uint16->32 changes but it seems ok
18:23:12 <peter1138> i guess that's one benefit of classes
18:24:40 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I have an alpinew-noindust.grf here as well
18:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it's a one-line change really :)
18:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a jump at the beginning of the industry code, just change that to an unconditional jump
18:25:27 <planetmaker> Is StringID also 32bit?
18:26:09 <planetmaker> as widget_data is sometimes converted to StringID. We might then introduce a similar oddity there, should we ever have too many strings
18:26:27 <planetmaker> DrawLabel and friends
18:28:21 <planetmaker> maybe an assert like (widget_data & 0xFFFF0000) == 0x00000000 could help there
18:28:59 <planetmaker> but where's "there" :D
18:31:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: so...views? o_O
18:42:46 <peter1138> planetmaker, i think we'd end up adding masses of asserts if we did that everytime we truncate a type
18:46:12 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24849 /trunk/src/lang (10 files) (2012-12-24 18:45:59 UTC)
18:46:13 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:14 <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by Bassals
18:46:15 <DorpsGek> croatian - 33 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:16 <DorpsGek> english_US - 33 changes by Rubidium
18:46:17 <DorpsGek> finnish - 33 changes by jpx_
18:46:18 <DorpsGek> french - 33 changes by glx
18:46:19 <DorpsGek> german - 51 changes by planetmaker
18:46:20 <DorpsGek> italian - 33 changes by Snail_
18:46:21 <DorpsGek> russian - 33 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:46:22 <DorpsGek> spanish - 33 changes by Terkhen
18:46:23 <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 34 changes by myquartz
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19:04:59 <andythenorth> I wish double-clicking a newgrf opened parameter window, not removed it from list :P
19:08:48 <andythenorth> SV with Alcohol?
19:09:02 <planetmaker> totally realistic
19:14:46 <Sacro> limitation disturbs me very sprites
19:20:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24850 /trunk (6 files in 5 dirs) (2012-12-24 19:20:20 UTC)
19:20:24 <DorpsGek> -Update: Status report to santa.
19:22:54 * andythenorth plays the actual game
19:22:58 <andythenorth> not the other games
19:23:06 <andythenorth> not even in multiplayer
19:25:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24851 tags/1.3.0-beta1/ (2012-12-24 19:25:24 UTC)
19:25:28 <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.3.0-beta1
19:29:58 <andythenorth> if playing SV, make industries cheap to fund :P
19:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "-Update: Status report to santa." is that code for "readme and changelog"?
19:43:54 <frosch123> plus an attachment called "wishlist"
20:06:27 <andythenorth> be useful if the train window showed train length
20:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> just send it to a depot :)
20:31:41 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.2.3 1.3.0-beta1
20:31:41 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.2.3 1.3.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
20:31:45 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta1
20:31:46 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
20:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so i most recently got the latest version... :p
20:50:40 <frosch123> ottd is dieing, three of the "latest" versions only differ in documentation
20:53:30 <frosch123> nightly, head, testing
20:54:12 <planetmaker> counting to 3 is difficult
21:14:22 <andythenorth> FIRS production boost is a bit viscious
21:14:27 <andythenorth> double, then quadruple
21:14:40 <andythenorth> which means suddenly having to buy a lot more vehicles and infrastructure
21:14:49 <andythenorth> and if supply delivery is interrupted....massive jam
21:16:28 <planetmaker> build overflow depots ;-)
21:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is also what's wrong with ECS
21:21:32 <Belugas> happy holidays all, /me is going home
21:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> if you miss one delivery, your entire network breaks down
21:21:39 <Belugas> or will try to go ho,e...
21:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: we had 20.7°C here :)
21:22:12 <Bad_Brett> it's a nightmare to code a production algorithm that works properly
21:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> (which is the warmest christmas eve since the beginning of weather mesurement, or so)
21:22:46 <Bad_Brett> at least that's my opinion :)
21:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: we had snow just 3 days ago...
21:23:34 <Belugas> and i hug you a lot, Eddi|zuHause
21:23:48 <Belugas> and i'm drunk and i go back home
21:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and happy gift-receiving :)
21:28:37 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
21:31:46 <SpComb> wow, FIRS certainly makes you use transfers a lot more
21:32:15 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
21:33:27 <SpComb> smithy -> farm/engineering supplies truck -> farm/engineering supplies train -> farm supplies train -> farm (sugar|livestock)/supplies train -> (farm <-> sugar-refinery/stockyard)
21:33:58 <drac_boy> how're you Bad_Brett?
21:34:08 <drac_boy> SpComb that sounds a bit too "thick" to me :-s
21:34:20 <Bad_Brett> i'm super, thank's for asking!
21:34:39 <drac_boy> beside lack of info online sometimes I'm ok thanks
21:35:48 <Bad_Brett> merry christmas! :D
21:37:29 <drac_boy> short question again - would there had probably been a speed limit on long chassis 2-axle wagons especially when curvations aren't exactly broad?
21:37:56 <drac_boy> I imagine the flange always scrapes a bit on the outside rails to varying degrees with these kind of wagons but hmm
21:39:44 <Bad_Brett> what wagons are you thinking about?
21:40:23 <Bad_Brett> with faster locomotives it doesn't sound like a good idea to pull them at max speed
21:41:04 <peter1138> hmm, some of chips' tiles flicker in the ui :S
21:41:15 <Supercheese> Yeah, known issue
21:41:35 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett I think I can find an example, give me a moment :)
21:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <SpComb> wow, FIRS certainly makes you use transfers a lot more <-- just use cargodist :)
21:43:02 <Supercheese> derp, stupid apostrophe key
21:43:20 <drac_boy> (and btw I can tell thats N scale .. the Arnold-invented couplers are obvious)
21:43:29 <peter1138> hmm, it's okay by itself
21:43:33 <Supercheese> Is the 'most recent' YACD based on a recent revision, or hopelessly old
21:44:03 <Supercheese> Alas, I expected as much...
21:44:05 <Bad_Brett> I think I'd set a speed limit on those... but i guess the gameplay is most important
21:44:24 <Supercheese> All these fancy new commits are delicious, though :<
21:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i need to try that sometime
21:44:59 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett well the thing is theres also bogie version (just slight different capacity) at same introduction time. so thats why I was wondering if the real thing had speed restrictions which I could probably use to differ them
21:45:09 <drac_boy> but if not I'll just drop one or the other to save an id
21:45:46 <Bad_Brett> perhaps you could add the speed restriction to that one and make it cheaper?
21:46:23 <drac_boy> mm actually yeah it was a little bit less because its only two rigid axles to assemble rather than the bogie trucks together with flexibile brake pipings etc
21:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: allegedly there's no big effort in updating YACD, just the author thinks it's pointles if you don'T solve the issues at the same time
21:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "issues" being performance mostly
21:47:54 <drac_boy> guess thats settled then
21:48:10 <peter1138> firs & chips causes it
21:48:46 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett how much do you know about varying rail wagons? :->
21:48:51 <Supercheese> Well, it's extremely likely that whenever CHIPS is used FIRS will be used as well...
21:49:02 <planetmaker> peter1138, FIRS has the flickering issue due to bad temp variable usage with displaying sprites conditionally
21:49:49 <planetmaker> which then leads to sometimes uninitialized sprite numbers being used, iirc
21:50:32 <peter1138> but what temp variables are available?
21:50:36 <Bad_Brett> drac_boy: not much at all... i'm an engineer though
21:50:57 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett is that "measure things twice then get it cut?" ;)
21:53:29 <peter1138> measure once cut twice
21:54:32 <planetmaker> peter1138, newgrf variables. Which the grf sets values to itself. Based on whatever decision process. Temp registers
21:54:49 <drac_boy> thats a good way to mess up something peter1138
21:54:57 <andythenorth> CHIPS is a bit fucked
21:55:08 <andythenorth> I've been waiting for yexo to be free of real life
21:55:17 <andythenorth> as I don't understand the grm stuff at all
21:55:27 <Supercheese> Sounds like a nasty disease, that "real life" ;)
21:55:40 <andythenorth> you evolve coping mechanisms by my age
21:55:56 <andythenorth> FIRS maybe should boost production 50% and 100% not 200% and 400$
21:56:23 <andythenorth> I want to have the option to use the ottd-controlled production change as well, but I can't be bothered to work out the code yet
21:56:39 <andythenorth> just design better :P
21:56:47 <Supercheese> Parameters = more user control
21:57:02 <Supercheese> Which may or may not be a good thing, depending
21:57:50 <Supercheese> For production boost values, I would support a parameter. Without knowing the code, I'd presume something like ascending in mutliples of 2 starting from 50%/100% increases
21:58:07 <Supercheese> Then 100/200, 200/400, or so
21:58:17 <Supercheese> Although TBH there's only a few 'sane' values there
21:59:59 <andythenorth> you enumerated them all ;)
22:22:15 <peter1138> hmm, wonder if i really need to keep old opengfxs
22:22:43 <planetmaker> not really. Also 0.4.6 is compatible with OpenTTD 0.7.0
22:23:17 <peter1138> heh, 5 versions of av8
22:37:07 <peter1138> every single time i unmaximize openttd gnome-shell crashes... wtf?
22:38:30 <peter1138> hm, it's okay without maximus extension
22:39:29 <peter1138> and they're written in... javascript :S
22:48:39 *** Djohaal has joined #openttd
23:05:52 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 11 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 46 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
23:09:41 <DorpsGek> peter1138: darkvater was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 36 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 31 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
23:09:48 <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen tron.
23:10:01 <DorpsGek> peter1138: hackykid was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 42 weeks, 3 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Hackykid> hi peter1138
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