IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-22
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00:03:01 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
00:07:45 <Supercheese> Huzzah, new UKRS live
00:10:18 <FLHerne> Just in time for me to test my patchpack with :D
00:11:00 <Supercheese> Oooh, a Garratt in the addon set
00:11:03 <drac_boy> had any progress with your seagulls Supercheese?
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00:11:19 <drac_boy> garratt? don't tell me its that LMER one that didn't last so long at all?
00:11:25 <FLHerne> Supercheese: I saw that too. It stands out a bit :-)
00:11:38 <drac_boy> oh lms...uk and all their names
00:12:00 <FLHerne> drac_boy: LNER had one, the LMS built 20-odd(?)
00:12:15 <drac_boy> I'll rather prefer an africa garratt of any kind than anything from any other countries tbh
00:12:32 <Supercheese> I know exactly what I have to do for the seagulls, I just have to build up enough non-laziness to actually do it :P
00:12:44 <FLHerne> Wouldn't fit the loading (or track) gauge :P
00:12:46 <Supercheese> And now with new UKRS... it seems I'm going to be playing and not working
00:13:01 <drac_boy> FLHerne actually the K1-K4 would
00:13:15 * FLHerne wonders about the stability of such huge things on metre/3ft/whatever gauge
00:13:17 <drac_boy> the K1 was rather a small-boiler 0-4-0+0-4-0 especially
00:13:31 <drac_boy> K4 was just slight bigger with some extra nondrive axles
00:13:39 <FLHerne> Oh, I was thinking those giant things
00:14:15 <drac_boy> but as for the 2-8-4+4-8-2 and others ... they pretty much run well ... at the usual speed which is not much of a running speed anyway :)
00:14:36 <drac_boy> I think like maybe 40-70 but I don't recall what they specified
00:14:47 <drac_boy> freights would be toward the lower end for sure
00:15:16 <drac_boy> supercheese have fun with that :P
00:16:35 <Supercheese> Oh, I need to update and recompile, some fresh new commits fixing pylons and stuff look like good improvements
00:33:24 <Supercheese> Still can't believe I used to think compiling OTTD was "too difficult" :S
00:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's some really rare corner cases :)
00:37:40 <drac_boy> supercheese just download something then run 'make something' ? :P
00:38:21 <Supercheese> Well, it was more like "download a couple pieces of software, install them, checkout the source, double-click the project file, tweak a setting or two and hit compile"
00:38:34 <Supercheese> Which was vastly easier than I had anticipated
00:38:50 <FLHerne> That Garratt pulls well :o
00:39:13 <FLHerne> Just took 1,300 tons of coal up the steepest hill on my network, solo
00:39:23 <Supercheese> weight multiplier of?
00:40:23 <Supercheese> (what I use, too :) )
00:40:42 <FLHerne> Should replace my double/triple-headed 0-8-0s quite well
00:42:01 <FLHerne> Now, if I bank it with that 0-10-0 thing...
00:42:23 * FLHerne is testing a patchpack and UKRS at the same time. Fun :D
00:43:40 * FLHerne doesn't have to worry about hills anymore. At all :D
00:44:03 <Supercheese> Increase steepness setting?
00:44:22 <FLHerne> Two Garratts seem quite capable of dragging my heaviest trains up a continuous gradient :D
00:44:34 <FLHerne> Supercheese: I could, but that would be boring :-(
00:45:05 <Supercheese> No, Boring is 100% Lev3 maglevs hauling everything everywhere :P
00:45:38 * FLHerne hasn't touched the default trainset in singleplayer for years :P
00:46:15 <FLHerne> I wish a CDist + FIRS + UKRS2 server existed and was occupied :-(
00:46:47 <FLHerne> Not really much alternative to default trainset on the public servers, it seems
00:46:53 <Supercheese> I think I'd prefer YACD from what I've read, but I've never honestly tried it
00:47:33 <Supercheese> I've never had too much of a beef with default "manual distribution" myself...
00:48:13 <FLHerne> Supercheese: Doesn't work on massively interconnected pax/mail or supplies networks
00:48:17 <drac_boy> just muttering to myself here but why the hell do we have both metre gauge and cape gauge when a 67mm difference really can't be that obvious (just make the axle diecast a few centimeters wider)
00:48:52 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Metric vs imperial, as usual?
00:49:12 <Supercheese> Well even in CDist, passenger trains still go "everybody off, everybody on" rather than some pax staying onboard for the next destination, right?
00:49:13 <drac_boy> FLHerne hmm ... whats imperal about 1067mm to be exact anyway?
00:50:28 <drac_boy> well at least anything built for one gauge can be trucked to the other gauge pretty easily ... that is if they were close to each other
00:50:43 <drac_boy> 67mm clearance difference on track gauge probably isn't going to matter
00:50:56 <FLHerne> Ah well, I really ought to sleep :P
00:51:40 <FLHerne> In the UK, Ireland spontaneously decided to use 5ft3in, the mainland stuck with 4ft8.5 - still no idea why...
01:00:45 <Supercheese> Weird, my FIRS fishing ground sprites are freaking out
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01:51:36 <Flygon_> Supercheese: They turned into Dolphins?
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02:31:52 <Pikka> since when does ctrl-clicking a vehicle start or stop it? :)
02:32:30 <planetmaker> for quite some time :-)
02:32:48 <planetmaker> tbh, I don't know. Might be longer than I'm around. maybe not
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07:44:35 <andythenorth> done an industry set yet?
07:44:41 <andythenorth> I could use a good one
07:44:46 <andythenorth> there aren't any :P
07:44:47 <Pikka> working on it or something :)
07:45:29 <andythenorth> won't get done if I disturb you I guess :P
08:04:48 <Supercheese> Huh, my FIRS Fishing ground sprites are freaking out when the game is paused
08:06:26 <Supercheese> Hmm, best way to quickly host an image...
08:07:04 <Supercheese> I'll just post it as an attachment in the FIRS thread
08:10:09 <Supercheese> Forgot I was using a modded version, testing with trunk
08:14:15 <Supercheese> From what I can tell, it also happens in FIRS r3275
08:15:40 <Supercheese> Oh wow what, it's stopped happening somehow?
08:16:11 <Supercheese> Oh no, there it is
08:18:15 <Supercheese> Yep, still happening
08:22:14 <Supercheese> FWIW, game year is 2013
08:22:38 <Ammler> that looks like the question mark
08:24:04 <andythenorth> yeah, I think I know what that is
08:24:21 <Supercheese> Seems to happen when a new sprite is drawn for zooming
08:24:22 <andythenorth> you could probably find it in a few other places if you looked
08:24:36 <andythenorth> I think forest and quarry will also do it
08:24:47 <andythenorth> actually...perhaps not
08:25:20 <Supercheese> not seeing it on forest
08:25:52 <andythenorth> yeah, I know why that is
08:25:59 <andythenorth> fishing harbour?
08:26:22 <Supercheese> no, but I don't think the colors are cycling properly
08:26:25 <Supercheese> lemme switch palette
08:27:07 <Supercheese> Yeah, not the same problem with harbor, but the color cycles are incorrectly colored
08:27:12 <Supercheese> cycling-colors, w/e
08:29:45 <Supercheese> pretty sure there are some blues that should not be static there
08:30:22 <Supercheese> oh maybe those are not being REcolored properly?
08:30:25 <Supercheese> rather than not cycling?
08:31:14 <Supercheese> It just looks very out of place
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08:33:57 <Supercheese> there are some strange-looking blues around the small fishing vessels
08:36:18 <andythenorth> broken company colour, thanks
08:36:27 <andythenorth> didn't show for me, my harbour had blue cc
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09:23:40 <Supercheese> Huh, strange, someone else reported the same Fishing ground bug before I did, but I cannot recall reading that post...
09:23:46 <Supercheese> and I always read every post in that forum
09:24:08 <Supercheese> must have missed it somehow
09:24:43 <andythenorth> Supercheese: harbour pixels fixed
09:24:52 <andythenorth> I missed that other post too :P
09:25:07 <Supercheese> Maybe it somehow didn't trigger the unread-posts deal
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09:33:48 <andythenorth> is RCT done yet then?
09:36:09 <Alberth> you're anxious to play it? :)
09:36:09 <Alberth> well, since yesterday, you can build a shop, and 'open' it so it will cost you money. Unfortunately, it cannot sell anything yet :p
09:36:11 <Alberth> mostly because the guests do not have a 'buy stuff' concept :)
09:36:50 <andythenorth> todo: implement capitalism
09:37:32 <Alberth> hmm, guests may not even have money yet ;)
09:38:23 <Alberth> luckily, the economy of freerct is going to be very simplistic :)
09:40:19 <Alberth> I am also doing some experiments to get a web service + client running that perform basic authentication, as a starting point for the translator service
09:40:37 <FLHerne> Alberth: Will it have NewGRFs? :D
09:41:31 <Alberth> FLHerne: depending on what you expect the freerct newgrfs to contain, the answer is either "never" or "already available"
09:43:32 <Alberth> current syntax is xml, I am quite sure that will change one day :)
09:46:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: I also had another try to extend newgrf for total-number-of-industries, but I got stuck at writing a newgrf that has a generic callback for that
09:47:11 <andythenorth> that puzzles me too
09:47:41 <Alberth> or an nml author to extend nml :p
09:48:09 <andythenorth> you need to add a cb?
09:48:14 <andythenorth> oh, it has to be generic :P
09:49:09 <andythenorth> generic, I don't know
09:49:14 <Alberth> I think you'll want a generic cb for this :)
09:49:30 <Alberth> nml does not support generic cb at all
09:50:39 <andythenorth> I have no idea what feature that would be o_O
09:50:47 <andythenorth> feature type: 'grf'
09:54:17 <Alberth> nah, feature type 'universe' is much nicer ;)
09:58:52 <andythenorth> cb: adjust space time
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10:03:03 <andythenorth> how does this nml thingy work
10:06:41 <andythenorth> fishing grounds have bouys. should they be hidden or shown in transparent mode?
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10:13:15 <andythenorth> Supercheese: I've fixed what I think causes the sprite bug with Fishing Grounds, but I wasn't able to replicate it with my version of ottd / FIRS
10:13:40 <andythenorth> I believe it was there, just couldn't reproduce myself :P
10:14:59 <Supercheese> appears to be fixed, loading another game
10:15:26 <Supercheese> Yes, indeed appears to be fixed :)
10:15:38 <Supercheese> you're welcome, and thank YOU sir
10:16:01 <Supercheese> Oh cute, flashing fire-cycle pixels on some forklifts
10:16:28 <Supercheese> I dunno, did you intend for fire-cycle pixels on Aluminium plant forklifts?
10:17:09 <Supercheese> They could indeed be beacons
10:17:28 <andythenorth> yeah, they're beacons
10:17:51 <Supercheese> Ooh, other animations
10:18:21 <andythenorth> new FIRS has quite a few more animations, mostly smoke and stuff
10:18:23 <Supercheese> Rolling cement plant tubes :D
10:18:35 <andythenorth> yeah, they were a PITA to draw ;)
10:18:41 <Supercheese> They're very snazzy
10:18:52 <andythenorth> new FIRS has more date sensitive graphics too
10:20:51 <Supercheese> Do you have to manually specify each frame, or is there a "trigger smoke puff here" industry option?
10:21:43 <andythenorth> manually specify
10:21:46 <andythenorth> but it's a template
10:21:52 <andythenorth> write once, use it wherever
10:22:02 <andythenorth> nml makes it easy
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10:23:30 <Supercheese> I still doesn't get preprocessor macros, though :S
10:23:46 <Supercheese> (I started typing that as a /me , derp)
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10:25:17 <andythenorth> I don't actually use that template, it's a different one ;)
10:26:10 <Supercheese> Anyway, I've been (slowly) working on a newobjects set, primarily because I've some neat circling seagulls that will go very well with fishing grounds and harbors
10:26:54 <Supercheese> I also pilliag- I mean, borrowed some code from the wind turbines to make the job even easier, and pseudorandom
10:27:29 <Supercheese> Still not sure what "height" to make the birds fly at, though
10:27:35 <Supercheese> OTTD scale being so insane :S
10:28:07 <andythenorth> you need to probably keep them within tile boundary
10:28:11 <andythenorth> to avoid strange effects
10:28:30 <Supercheese> The "small" flock fits nicely within the tile
10:28:38 <Supercheese> the "large" flock less so, but that's not coded yet
10:29:13 <andythenorth> multiple tiles :P
10:29:41 <Supercheese> I'd prefer to keep the blockage to a minimum, since ships can't traverse objects
10:30:20 <Supercheese> Ugh, I'll never finish coding those, not with updates to NewStations, UKRS, and FIRS
10:30:40 <Supercheese> and all the recent trunk commits too
10:31:20 <andythenorth> playing is seriously over-rated
10:31:42 <Supercheese> All code and no play makes Jack a dull developer
10:32:38 <Pikka> andythenorth: are FISH getting auto-refitting or something?
10:32:46 <Supercheese> Nightlies already have IIRC
10:33:19 <andythenorth> that was a pain in the arse :P
10:33:26 <andythenorth> I hate auto-refit :)
10:33:34 <Supercheese> but it's extremely appreciated :)
10:35:54 <andythenorth> Pikka: also I've got buckets of steam ship sprites from DanMacK and Coxx
10:36:03 <andythenorth> so many, I'm confused :P
10:37:54 <Supercheese> Too bad you can't give steam ships visual_effect steam puffs :(
10:39:38 <andythenorth> I'm *definitely* going to click that
10:39:48 <andythenorth> can't possibly be spam
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10:50:44 <Supercheese> All right, enough spamming
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11:10:38 <andythenorth> so what shall I do about this truck newgrf?
11:11:03 <andythenorth> rigid trucks: 1 model per body type
11:11:20 <andythenorth> articulated trucks, one model, any trailer type, with autorefit allowed at stations?
11:12:04 <andythenorth> + no refitting to different number of trailers
11:15:26 <Supercheese> I'll sleep on it :P
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11:35:58 <peter1138> urgh, how annoying, gimp refuses to save in anything other than xcf
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11:36:07 <peter1138> now you have to go to a separate "export" window... :S
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11:39:11 <peter1138> You are not allowed to access this file.
11:39:12 <peter1138> Please notify the board administrator or webmaster: forums@tt-forums.net
11:39:38 <peter1138> well, it posted anyway
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12:14:06 <Zuu> Is there a guide on how to re-build openttd.grf? I'm standing in trunk root and do: grfcodec -e openttd.grf media/extra_grf; cp openttd.grf bin/baseset
12:14:25 <Zuu> The result is a broken openttd.grf with grfcodec 6.0.1.
12:14:50 <Zuu> (using windows and a hg checkout of trunk)
12:15:41 <Zuu> At the moment I've reverted all input files *.nfo and *.png to trunk state as to make sure I have't made any wrong changes myself.
12:18:55 <Alberth> maybe you need a trunk version of grfcodec for that?
12:21:15 * Zuu found the makefile for building openttd.grf. it looks a bit too complex to follow by hand.
12:25:13 <Alberth> yeah, you don't want to do that :)
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12:28:06 <Alberth> trunk grfcodec seems to rebuild the openttd.grf, but with modifications compared to the version stored in openttd trunk
12:28:37 <Zuu> I'm currently fetching the needed stuff to build it in linux instead.
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12:46:04 <Zuu> Is there a way to call the recepie to build openttd.grf without doing maike maintaine-clean; make?
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13:03:51 <Alberth> or 'touch' at least one of the source files (except I don't know which files that are)
13:05:11 <michi_cc> 'touch media/extra_grf/openttd.nfo' should do it I guess
13:08:43 <Zuu> ok, I now have to figure out why just adding a line in openttdgui.nfo is not enough to add a new sprite to openttdgui.png (apart from drawing it)
13:09:02 <Zuu> At least it builds fine without my modifications now. :-)
13:11:16 <Zuu> Hmm, removing one line also make compilation fail, so one of the hex nums at the start is probably number of sprites. :-)
13:12:15 * Zuu fonud the right hex num to increase one step. :-)
13:14:05 <andythenorth> I need to make a new type of farm
13:14:25 <andythenorth> grain and livestock
13:14:28 <andythenorth> for basic economies
13:15:11 <Alberth> that's a normal type of farm in the UK ?
13:17:32 <andythenorth> normal in default TTD
13:17:37 <andythenorth> in temperate iirc
13:18:45 <Flygon> We need an Australian industries set
13:18:49 <Alberth> I know, but for some reason I suddenly wondered that is the case :)
13:18:50 <Flygon> So that you can farm Kangaroo
13:19:41 <Flygon> And then you ship beer to the same factory...
13:19:52 <Flygon> And then you can ship out Beer Soaked 'roo Meat
13:20:02 <KenjiE20> Alberth: I think we have a pretty even split between mixed and high intensity single farms
13:20:04 <Flygon> A favorite amoung Russians AND Australians :D
13:20:58 <Alberth> Flygon: make an australian economy for firs
13:21:35 <Flygon> There's only two things currently in the Australian economy
13:21:44 <Flygon> Coal and Ore, and Fiber Optic cabling
13:21:50 <Flygon> Yes, that's two things
13:22:31 <Alberth> for the latter you definitely need 12 tile freight trains :p
13:23:21 <Flygon> You can store them in reels :P
13:23:46 <Flygon> Though, a more advanced infrastructure style of OpenTTD would be interesting
13:23:51 <Flygon> As an optional thing, mind you
13:24:01 <Flygon> eg. lay out copper cabling for overhead and signalling... ect
13:24:34 <Alberth> sounds more something for a train simulator
13:24:48 <Flygon> OpenTTD basically is one
13:24:58 <Flygon> Almost everything that comes out is Train related
13:25:08 <Alberth> no, openttd is a transport company simulation
13:25:26 <Flygon> I wasn't denying that, but the community seems to love the foam :p
13:25:28 <Alberth> perhaps a bit too much "train transport" though
13:26:03 <Flygon> Though, what annoys me most, is the lack of Australian Tram GRF D:
13:26:23 <Flygon> Melbourne IS the Southern Hemisphere's Tram capitol, afterall
13:28:37 <Flygon> I also have my own laziness to blame
13:28:54 <Flygon> ...my grammar and spelling appears to be shooting itself in the hand today
13:31:26 <andythenorth> Flygon: I am hoping that the australian economy also includes 'web apps' :P
13:31:31 <andythenorth> for personal reasons
13:32:55 <andythenorth> FIRS australian economy: sheep station, cattle station, meat packer, brewery, cane plantation, sugar mill, mines, import / export docks
13:32:56 * Alberth has a vison of a wagon for bits
13:33:36 <Zuu> Does grfcodec care about any other pixles than those defined by the sprite rectangle?
13:33:36 <Alberth> textile too (with all the sheep)
13:34:02 <andythenorth> to China, India, Vietnam etc
13:34:26 <Alberth> exported as raw wool thus :)
13:35:26 <andythenorth> came from DanMacK not me
13:35:51 <Flygon> andythenorth: Australia's economy stopped being interesting past 1985ish
13:35:52 <Zuu> My new sprite doesn't show up in OpenTTD. However, if I use an existing sprite number instead of my new one in the ny entry in table/sprites.h, then it show up. I can also modify existing sprites in the .png and have them change appearance in-game. :-s
13:36:08 <Flygon> When we stopped putting amazing tarrifs on any import
13:36:41 <Flygon> Before then, Australia had a HUGE manufacturing industry
13:37:01 <Flygon> Cars, Trains, Trucks, Agricultural Equipment, ...basically, we manufactured a lot
13:37:06 <Flygon> Now all we make of note is trains
13:37:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: no eng supplies to the oil industry in tropic?
13:39:55 <Flygon> But, yeah, andythenorth, I wouldn't trust Australia with anything IT related
13:40:03 <Flygon> And I say that as an Australian
13:40:19 <Flygon> Everyone that makes an IT enterprise here, ends up moving it to California, or Pheonix, Arizona...
13:40:30 <Zuu> My changes are here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1991/ (here I only add a new sprite to .png and .nfo and tries to alter the fast forward button to use it) The new sprite is at 350,440 in openttdgui.png and is 18x18 pixles
13:40:49 <andythenorth> Flygon: I'm selling to AU from UK o_O
13:41:07 <Flygon> Australians are buying web apps from the UK?
13:41:38 <Flygon> I said we're terrible at producing stuff (partially due to a tough local market)
13:41:50 <Flygon> Not terrible at dragging stuff from overseas
13:42:56 <Alberth> static const uint16 OPENTTD_SPRITE_COUNT = 168; <-- perhaps also increment this number? :p
13:44:21 <Alberth> of course it is, you leave too fast Wolf :p
13:44:34 <Zuu> Alberth: might be useful too. :-) I didn't find any guide on what steps to follow so it was all trial and error :-)
13:48:10 <andythenorth> closing primary industries - anybody think of a valid mechanic?
13:48:21 <andythenorth> production is static, so can't use falling production to do it
13:49:02 <Alberth> random seems fine to me
13:50:39 <Alberth> closing while the player provides transport services is perhaps another matter
13:51:18 <andythenorth> secondaries close if no cargo is transported 'for a long time'
13:51:21 <andythenorth> dunno how long :P
13:51:38 <andythenorth> could use the same mechanic, maybe user configurable 5 | 10 | 25 | 50 | 100 years
13:52:23 <Alberth> with a bit of random to prevent them all closing at the same time, I hope :p
13:52:45 <andythenorth> I'd use the random prod. change cb
13:52:52 <andythenorth> relies on OTTD that way
13:53:14 <andythenorth> although I don't really understand when it's called, nor how smooth / original economy setting affects it
13:53:30 <andythenorth> where's all the frosch today? :)
13:53:38 <Alberth> newgrf doesn't do smooth afaik
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13:56:32 <Zuu> Ah, nice - so now I got a story button in the main menu. Now I only need to implement the story window :-D
13:56:46 <andythenorth> I so hate those economy settings :P
13:57:00 <andythenorth> I never understand how they interact with newgrf, or if I need to test both of them
13:57:18 <andythenorth> delegate it to economy plugins :P
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15:29:16 <andythenorth> how do I open the new cargo chains display?
15:30:18 <andythenorth> need to check for any broken chains in my new economy
15:31:15 <andythenorth> maybe I have an old OTTD in use :P
15:32:16 <Alberth> yay, a bottle web server running with basic authentication, now I just need to add a translation service :p
15:33:40 <andythenorth> got any browser views yet?
15:33:49 <andythenorth> might not be called that in bottle
15:34:47 <Alberth> nope, just a web page containing the word "secret" :p
15:35:17 <frosch123> ow, now you leaked it
15:35:42 <Alberth> nah, it was already published at the Internet :)
15:35:46 <andythenorth> why don't FIRS hotels accept mail?
15:35:57 <andythenorth> I guess hotel guests can use the phone :P
15:36:19 <Alberth> its guests try to find peace and quiet without mail
15:36:34 <Alberth> you bring phones to the hotel? ;p
15:37:43 <andythenorth> no wires in OTTD
15:37:50 <andythenorth> maybe the radio tower is a phone mast?
15:40:00 <frosch123> nah, it's just a heap of metal to annoy railroad companies
15:40:02 <andythenorth> that industry chain view is mighty useful
15:40:04 <frosch123> it has no other purpose
15:40:20 <andythenorth> annoys airport tycoons
15:41:11 <frosch123> the are some kind of eiffel tower
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15:43:41 <drac_boy> how doing andythenorth?
15:43:45 <drac_boy> still having more things to fix? :)
15:44:27 <andythenorth> ^ contains a new Temperate Basic economy
15:44:38 <andythenorth> if anyone wants to check it for broken chains....
15:45:36 <drac_boy> no new industry or anything..just basically the vectors choosed?
15:48:22 <drac_boy> either way the 18+19 you picked...seem a little small compared to others but it looks nice still
15:50:26 <andythenorth> small is the point
15:50:53 <drac_boy> thats why I said it still looked nice
15:53:07 <drac_boy> you still working on that thing with python? or what was it again I forgot
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16:00:43 <drac_boy> hows that going anyway?
16:02:42 <andythenorth> Dan's plan for FIRS Arctic Basic economy includes a power station
16:02:48 <andythenorth> should I add one?
16:02:59 <andythenorth> there's no other destination for coal
16:03:08 <drac_boy> well ... of course? :)
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16:17:15 <andythenorth> don't add cargos to the game via a running newgrf :P
16:18:52 <andythenorth> alcohol in Basic Arctic?
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16:21:00 <Terkhen> sounds basic to me :P
16:22:16 <drac_boy> funny enough I was planning on a wheat>food brewery industry idea :)
16:29:16 <andythenorth> doom is too easy on ultra-violence
16:29:20 <andythenorth> but way too hard on nightmare
16:42:47 <andythenorth> done a Basic Arctic economy too
16:51:00 <andythenorth> don't all applaud at once :P
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17:03:07 <drac_boy> I wonder how far 50KVAC electrification can run for between substations
17:03:22 <drac_boy> because I just noticed certain south africa railway locomotives are for 50KV
17:03:33 <drac_boy> thats quite high voltage
17:09:46 <drac_boy> and apparently SAR just orders more or less the same units over and over but give them a new class each time :-s
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17:43:46 <peter1138> higher voltage allows for longer distance, wonder what difference it makes
17:44:56 <drac_boy> peter1138 actually I think I may have found out why from one particular class's details
17:45:47 <drac_boy> super-long ore trains (think alike to the ones in australia) over long empty landscape ... and the locomotive are wired in a way that they can work between 20K to 55K voltage ... so I guess they have very few substations placed very far apart
17:47:36 <peter1138> built to accomodate a massive loss that would normally be unacceptable? nice
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18:17:41 <Alberth> peter1138: for non-alternating current (I don't know the answer for alternating current), the power delivered P = U * I (voltage times current). Higher U thus means lower I. The loss over the wire P = I * I * R (with I the current, and R the physical resistance). Doubling the voltage thus means 1/4 of the loss.
18:45:53 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24838 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2012-12-22 18:45:42 UTC)
18:45:54 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:55 <DorpsGek> belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
18:45:56 <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by Bassals
18:45:57 <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:58 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:45:59 <DorpsGek> swedish - 5 changes by Joel_A
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18:57:45 <andythenorth> Tropic Basic economy done
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19:05:08 <andythenorth> Alberth: Terkhen FIRS lang updates - want to translate recent changes ?
19:05:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sure :O
19:05:26 <andythenorth> I'm probably going to release 0.8.0 soon
19:05:26 <Terkhen> how much time do I have?
19:05:36 <andythenorth> at least until tomorrow
19:05:42 <andythenorth> not many changes
19:05:48 <Terkhen> which translates to "an hour" :P
19:06:05 * Terkhen won't be around tomorrow
19:42:37 <Terkhen> andythenorth: check STR_PARAM_DESC_ECONOMIES
19:42:41 <Terkhen> it says that only one economy is available
19:54:37 <Zuu> Oh, now I can browse pages in the story book. Both using prev/next and a drop down for jumping directly to a page. Now I can move on to actually drawing the page content. :-)
19:56:05 <Zuu> Currently only the title is visible :-)
20:06:42 * Alberth gives a " " to andythenorth for the STR_FUND_SUGARCANE_PLANTATION line
20:08:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: isn't "3t per 8 crates manufacturing supplies delivered" missing an "a"?
20:08:30 <Terkhen> the same happens with all of those strings
20:15:14 <Alberth> andythenorth: pushed dutch updates
20:15:38 <Zuu> (I pushed down the toolbar button further down in the patch queue so it is not visible currently)
20:16:48 <Zuu> Obviously the resize button is a bit wrong, but I haven't really decided if I want to move the prev/next buttons to the top or not yet.
20:17:16 <Zuu> Or draw the title in the panel in a large font and push down the page selector to the bottom.
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20:31:01 <Alberth> I like the prev/next buttons at the bottom, but yeah, not something to worry about now :)
20:36:27 <V453000> wtf is OpenTTD going to have a story? :DDDDDDDDDD
20:37:25 <frosch123> V453000: yes, your trains will be able to gain experience
20:37:34 <frosch123> which makes them accerlate better
20:37:47 <frosch123> you will also be able to purchase special booster items in our online store
20:39:35 <andythenorth> can I have badges?
20:40:01 <andythenorth> lang file unicode issues
20:40:05 <andythenorth> never sure what to do about those
20:40:14 <andythenorth> non-utf8 characters
20:41:02 <Rubidium> seems you don't deserve your code page conversion patch yet
20:41:19 <andythenorth> setting the encoding seems to fix it
20:41:30 <andythenorth> defaults to Mac Western Roman
20:42:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can also purchase the special "unicorn" disaster
20:43:48 <frosch123> train explodes with fireball in unicorn collission
20:45:52 <V453000> I hope for the train-leaving-trail-on-the-tracks-behind-them DLC
20:45:57 <V453000> so slugs could leave slime behind
20:46:00 <V453000> requested feature 2010
20:47:44 <Alberth> build a very long train that also has slime graphics?
20:59:53 <Zuu> Or require the slug engine to have X slime wagons at the end
21:00:46 <Zuu> <V453000> wtf is OpenTTD going to have a story? :DDDDDDDDDD <---- The beginner tutorial already got something like that, but it is somewhat fragile.
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21:02:56 <drac_boy> been a while since I looked this up that I've forgotten. do you use the maximum or continous tractive figure for newgrfs?
21:04:12 <V453000> longer vehicles are ass for the slime trail as they take up signal space :/
21:04:42 <frosch123> non-slimy vehicles would fall of the track anyway
21:05:17 <V453000> evolutionary natural selection
21:05:45 <V453000> also, you usually dont mix trains with slugs :P
21:06:24 <Zuu> It would be interesting if slugs could run close to each other but other tranis would need to keep a longer distance to the slug ahead.
21:08:01 <frosch123> hmm, egrvts should introduce horse trams with unicorns instead of horses: maybe date 2100, max speed 500?
21:08:53 <Supercheese> or wait, is that 4th declension...
21:09:30 <frosch123> drac_boy: vehicles always accelerate the same
21:09:33 <V453000> I am introducing Chameleon train class since NUTS 0.4.0 :P close
21:09:38 <frosch123> there is no fuel, or heating
21:09:54 <Supercheese> Aircraft can have a specified acceleration, no?
21:13:21 <drac_boy> frosch123 that still doesn't help, should I use eg 200kN starting or 120kN otherwise for a locomotive? :P
21:14:49 <Terkhen> andythenorth: is "3t per 8 crates manufacturing supplies delivered" missing an "of"?
21:15:10 <Terkhen> I don't want to commit my translation to get fake "this string got changed" messages later :P
21:15:16 <frosch123> drac_boy: "should" :p
21:15:18 <andythenorth> might read better with 'of'
21:15:27 <andythenorth> makes sense without
21:15:45 <andythenorth> I'm leaving it without
21:15:56 <frosch123> drac_boy: no idea, try to use "starting" for the "max te" property and "continuous" for the "power" property?
21:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> to me as a non-native speaker it feels wrong without
21:16:28 <Supercheese> As a native speaker, it feels fine either way
21:16:48 <Supercheese> but yeah, it is more proper to have an 'of', though not necessary
21:16:53 <frosch123> drac_boy: maybe you should just try ingame :)
21:17:05 <frosch123> drac_boy: realistic values are never good for gameplay :p
21:17:43 <drac_boy> I would had gone with '8 crates from 3t of ____' andythenorth :p
21:18:10 <Supercheese> 3t from 8 crates...?
21:18:31 <Supercheese> wait, is the 3 from the 8, or the 8 from the 3 :S
21:18:46 <Terkhen> andythenorth: which was the URL for pushing?
21:19:31 <drac_boy> frosch123 well this is supposed to be based after realistic trains .. so a 600hp @ 31t locomotive doing 500kN just is completely wrong :)
21:19:34 <V453000> hm, is there any way to make an articulated train get 65k power?
21:19:43 <drac_boy> more like maybe 50-200kN at the best
21:20:09 <drac_boy> V453000 powered wagon callback for the locomotive? I know I saw it somewhere on newgrf wiki - just forgot the exact name now
21:20:27 <drac_boy> eg loco alone could be 600hp but each wagon (or less) added would add more hp
21:20:29 <V453000> the engine alone without wagons
21:20:31 <drac_boy> or thats what I recall reading
21:20:51 <frosch123> V453000: no, 32k is max
21:21:01 <V453000> alright thanks, powered wagons then indeed
21:21:16 <V453000> mono intercity 4 has max stats >:(
21:21:35 <frosch123> does 32k vs. 64k make a difference? :p
21:21:45 <Terkhen> andythenorth: spanish translation pushed :)
21:23:14 <frosch123> V453000: ok, you are lucky, ottd uses uint32 internally
21:23:47 <V453000> cant say I know what that means :D
21:24:08 <frosch123> that the total power sum of a train is only limited at 4 billion
21:24:39 <V453000> :D well I know that the total power can be high :P
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21:27:08 <V453000> Only wagons with a livery override for this engine will add power <--- what :d
21:27:26 <V453000> I thought livery override is no-no to be used
21:27:53 <V453000> all of my express wagons use switches with vehicle_type_id check
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21:30:09 <andythenorth> some kind of 'contraband' cargo?
21:30:27 <andythenorth> coxx is planning to draw a fast warship
21:30:30 <andythenorth> it needs a cargo :P
21:30:37 <frosch123> V453000: livery-override is as deprecated as wagon power :p
21:30:38 <Supercheese> Contraband sounds good
21:30:47 <Supercheese> Code some coast guard cutters to chase after it
21:31:04 <Terkhen> good morning andythenorth
21:31:06 <V453000> so if I want more power for my intercity train I ... have no way how to get it?
21:31:12 <andythenorth> it was a short nap
21:33:41 <andythenorth> wish the ship menu showed more of the ship :P
21:33:52 <andythenorth> maybe I should just patch nml to support setx
21:34:16 <Supercheese> Is a large purchase sprite forcibly truncated?
21:35:03 <Supercheese> If text overlap is a problem, can't you just add whitespace to the front of the vehicle name?
21:35:22 <Zuu> Is it forbidden to switch font-size in OpenTTD strings on other places than on first non-white character after a line break?
21:36:06 <Rubidium> effectively I think it is
21:36:08 <Zuu> If not, you could make interesting things by switching font size in the middle of a line that is dawn using mult-line draw :-)
21:36:24 <frosch123> Zuu: first of all there is no string code to switch to normal size :p
21:36:32 <Zuu> at line break it basically does: y += current_size
21:37:05 <frosch123> and yes, all strings have consistent font size
21:37:11 <andythenorth> spaces are an unreliable method
21:37:22 <andythenorth> tried that already :P
21:37:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: use ideographic spaces :p
21:37:52 <andythenorth> I should just use setx
21:37:58 <frosch123> just review eddi's patch maybe?
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21:38:07 <andythenorth> I'm not competent :)
21:38:37 <andythenorth> didn't test with RTL or 'odd' character sets
21:39:41 <Rubidium> don't think any actual checks are done though
21:39:50 <bootmii> Somebody include a Bidi implementation!
21:40:10 <Zuu> It appears that noone have yet implemented a parameter to let DrawStringMultiLine skip n lines. Eg. so that you can have a multi-line text with a width restriction (=> no horizontal scroll bar) and have a vertical scroll bar. However, it does seem quite trivial to add a such parameter as the method already can skip lines. I just doesn't expose it that way.
21:41:23 <Zuu> The Readme viewer etc. that LordAro created split the raw strings into one string per line already in the viewer code.
21:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "i tested it" - "but not with any interesting or corner cases" :p
21:44:30 <bootmii> or some other way to display bidirectional text
21:44:49 <Rubidium> is the current method not enough?
21:48:35 <frosch123> Zuu: check the textfile view :)
21:49:09 <Zuu> frosch123: It split the lines probably using \n and/or \r and just call DrawString.
21:49:13 <frosch123> scrolling text is done by creating a clipping area and then drawing text starting at negative positions
21:50:04 <frosch123> Zuu: i would think it splits the lines because of ottd 512 byte string limit
21:50:33 <frosch123> but yeah, textedit was a wrong example for scrolling text
21:50:47 <frosch123> newsticker is only horizontal
21:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the news ticker needs to be non-blocking for real news
21:52:05 <Zuu> So extending DrawStringMultiLine to allow specifying to skip n lines is the wrong way to go?
21:52:45 <frosch123> imo yes, as you would also need a method to get the number of lines, which might change when resizing or whatever
21:53:04 <Zuu> There is already a method to get the number of lines.
21:53:10 <frosch123> so, imo pixel-based scrolling of the string bounding box might be nicer
21:53:22 <frosch123> oh, what is it used for?
21:55:37 <Zuu> It is mostly used as input for computing the pixel height of (multi-line) strings.
21:57:03 <Zuu> FormatStringLinebreaks is the method
21:57:21 <frosch123> that is only used by the drawing code
21:57:39 <bootmii> Then use it in some other code!
21:57:41 <frosch123> oh, and the chat uses it for input validation
21:59:51 <Rubidium> chat input or the stuff coming from the network?
22:00:31 <frosch123> in inserts linebreaks into long messages
22:01:19 <frosch123> hmm, actually, it does that on receiving
22:01:45 <frosch123> well, would also not make a lot of sense to use the screen with of the sender :p
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23:05:55 <michi_cc> Isn't really perfect though, as it only works nice with old GRFs if the sprites are left-aligned instead of being centered as they are now.
23:06:52 <frosch123> there is some random commented line in the middle
23:06:59 <frosch123> // int sprite_x = (rtl ? r - sprite_width / 2 : l + sprite_width / 2) - 1;
23:07:18 <michi_cc> With centered sprites some GRFs (2ccSet especially) totally overlap with the text. Left aligned, almost everything works (except some odd GRFs like Sailing Ships 0.62 that uses both spaces and heaps of useless blue in the sprites).
23:07:51 <michi_cc> That's for centered/left aligned, depending on which you select.
23:08:50 <michi_cc> Should that be commited, it will only have on option of course.
23:09:04 <frosch123> is there some way to make the left/right positioning the same for all sprites of at least one grf
23:09:28 <michi_cc> Anyway, Sailing Ships can be ignored, it's totally broken in RTL (in unmodified trunk) as well .
23:09:34 <frosch123> it would be nice if it is ensured that those extra info columns of 2cc or nuts remain aligned
23:10:17 <frosch123> maybe all reference point could be aligned
23:10:31 <frosch123> so left/right offset is the max over all sprites
23:10:43 <frosch123> instead of different positions per sprite
23:10:54 <michi_cc> Those columns are only aligned if the sprite is draw centered, and then it overlaps the text.
23:11:58 <frosch123> why should that be the case?
23:12:01 <frosch123> makes no sense to me
23:12:34 <frosch123> the patch looks like it uses only the sprite width
23:12:49 <frosch123> imo it should also use the reference point
23:13:10 <frosch123> so, instead of a single width there would be extend_left and extent_right
23:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> is that based on my patch?
23:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think mine was slightly broken with 2ccSet
23:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> as it handled dualheaded engines very crudely
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23:31:52 <drac_boy> any of you know of any good site listing historic rail classification systems? I already have the one used in german, swiss, and japan. just curious about looking at more examples tho
23:34:36 <swissfan91> One for the UK shouldn't be too hard to find.
23:36:34 <swissfan91> There are a lot of people that know an awful lot about the UK rail network on the forums!
23:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a french one as well
23:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> also there are wikipedia pages about almost every major german railway how they classified their engines
23:40:15 <drac_boy> yeah I got a lot from the germans indeed
23:40:37 <drac_boy> some of these multiply class letters are interesting
23:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
23:48:02 <drac_boy> well how about eg OOmt which would had meant an open wagon with 30+ ton capacity and self-discharged (mind you I find picture searches for rail wagons rather weak so I don't know if this particular classification was for real too)
23:49:08 <drac_boy> germans sure didn't leave anything missing..if you couldn't find some way to classify it .. you always could put it under the '..S' letter which is for a special wagon apparently
23:49:44 <drac_boy> anyway I better not talk too much about this...I'll only say they interest me
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23:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> OO not only meant open wagon, but also 4 axles
23:54:05 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you mean with "..S"
23:54:18 <drac_boy> oh...sorry I had thought I read it as of being more than two axles ... oh well don't worry about it
23:55:10 <drac_boy> well thats all it said last I checked the website '..S' is just "special wagon" ... no further descriptions given
23:55:26 <drac_boy> on the other hand 'S..' is for special passenger wagon
23:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the small letter "s" means "schnell" [fast[, and the capital letter "S" means "Salon" [luxorious wagon]
23:55:50 <drac_boy> salon...mm probably lost something in translation :|
23:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have the scheme fully memorized, might very well be that there was a "..S"
23:56:58 <drac_boy> the V letter and the other letters after that was a nice way to know exactly what kind of animals could be given without having to recheck
23:59:42 <drac_boy> VO single-deck for cattle or Vg (Veg earlier on) for small things like geese
continue to next day ⏵
