IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-11-15
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00:17:03 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
00:19:07 <krinn> i get a strange result by squirrel (well, maybe not, but for me it look strange) : local _blah = null; switch (huhu) { case 0: _blah=0; break; case... } print(_blah) <- error _blah does not exist
00:20:26 <krinn> inside the switch case, _blah exist and show the proper value i have set, but once i reach the break; state the _blah value disappears, shouldn't it kep it ?
00:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> smells scopy... :p
00:21:51 <krinn> it's all inside the same function
00:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the switch opens its own scope, so each _blah assignment there creates a new local variable, shadowing the other _Blah
00:22:15 <krinn> i was thinking that too :(
00:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know details about squirrel scopes
00:22:48 <krinn> but shouldn't i get an error inside the switch {} because i use _blah= and not local _blah= so inside the switch _blah is not define
00:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> local is just syntactic sugar
00:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not required
00:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least if it works remotely like python)
00:23:42 <krinn> you mean local is not local then :)
00:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "a=0" creates a local variable a if it can't find a variable with that name
00:24:53 <krinn> mmm let me try the a=0 to see if it throw "a doesn't exist"
00:26:03 <krinn> no, i got the a doesn't exist error
00:26:57 <krinn> inside the switch the print(_blah) works, not outside
00:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't know... could be a squirrel/optimisation bug that the variable goes out of scope too earlly, or it could be a misunderstanding of the specs
00:28:59 <glx> you can try to print it before the switch, just to test
00:29:17 <krinn> glx: it works, until i reach the break; statement
00:29:46 <krinn> the problem is because i do inside the switch _blah = aclass();
00:30:04 <krinn> if i do _blah = "hell", _blah after the break print "hell"
00:30:37 <glx> looks like it deletes the object when exiting from the switch then
00:31:01 <krinn> even if _blah was define itself before the switch
00:47:34 <krinn> found the line that create this, if i comment it out, it works, else it doesn't :/
00:48:21 <krinn> but it's a foreach loop
01:01:26 <glx> maybe paste the code somewhere
01:03:24 <krinn> really strange, i will put comment on the line that trouble me
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01:10:38 <krinn> really weird, the foreach make it lost the _station
01:11:16 <krinn> but after the break, as before the break i still have it
01:16:01 <glx> I don't think it's safe to modify _station.s_Tiles inside a foreach iterating it
01:17:02 <krinn> that's what i was thinking too, even i have done it plenty times
01:17:12 <krinn> i have change it too : foreach (loc, _dummy in _station.s_Tiles) { print("trigger bug"); }
01:17:39 <krinn> commenting it, it works, uncomment, it put trigger bug output and indeed the bug appears
01:18:41 <glx> and only this foreach breaks ?
01:19:20 <glx> because the one on the next line is very similar
01:19:25 <krinn> i have even change it to : foreach (loc, _dummy in _station.s_Tiles) { }
01:19:45 <krinn> ah no, sorry i have just add this one before pasting it, this one must be comment out too
01:22:41 <krinn> it's kinda amazing, even that trigger the bug -> local grrr = AIList(); grrr.AddList(_station.s_Tiles); foreach (loc, _dummy in grrr) { }
01:31:59 <krinn> i really don't get what's going on
01:32:14 <krinn> the foreach make it act stupidly
01:37:23 <krinn> what squirrel version we use in openttd 1.2.1 ?
01:37:59 <krinn> and i see foreach changes
01:42:13 <krinn> any function to get the squirrel version in openttd itself?
01:44:32 <krinn> you mean a print(_version_); should make it ?
01:47:25 <krinn> must say i'm totally lost now
01:51:13 <krinn> glx you think it's squirrel bug too ?
01:52:17 <krinn> ah lol, i have just think i could for loop it instead of foreach :D
01:55:01 <glx> why not just use Valuate() .
01:56:15 <glx> because your line is exactly a use for Valuate() :)
01:56:46 <krinn> :) _station.s_Tiles.Valuate(AIRoad.GetRoadStationFrontTile);
01:58:34 <krinn> dbg: [script] [1] [P] loc=228518 other=228519
01:58:34 <krinn> dbg: [script] [1] [S] Your script made an error: the index 'bugme' does not exist
01:58:41 <krinn> valuate version works :D
01:59:16 <krinn> it's really foreach, scarry, i have plenty
02:00:09 <krinn> grep -R foreach * | wc -l
02:00:41 <glx> even a foreach not using _station in any way ?
02:01:13 <krinn> ah no, i shouldn't have that special foreach between switch case a lot
02:02:03 <krinn> oh ! and glad at least the bug do throw an error that crash the ai !
02:02:13 <krinn> so should be 248 safe foreach :)
02:03:32 <krinn> should i put that in flyspray for reminding it ?
02:04:20 <krinn> even there's no real explain why it does that?
02:04:21 <glx> some devs are more familiar than me with squirrel VM
02:05:28 <glx> maybe you're the first to use foreach in a switch :)
02:05:55 <krinn> lmao, with a local variable before the switch, re-use after it
02:07:00 <krinn> i will post it tomorrow, will do a small AI with just the case in it to see if it could reproduce at least easy or it need special conditions
02:07:55 <glx> yes the smaller test case the better
02:10:57 <krinn> glx wow amazing how you find this one so fast
02:11:28 <krinn> eheh i suppose i don't need a testing AI so, it's confirm
02:14:15 <krinn> so still affecting squirrel 2.2.5
02:16:15 <krinn> ahah lol and morloth fix works
02:16:47 <krinn> local _station = null; local stupidbug = 0; and the foreach works
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02:44:34 <Pinkbeast> Ha, I think I just realised why cargod*st always produces unfeasible pax numbers
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13:15:06 <andythenorth> what openttd *really* needs is tesla coils
13:16:05 <Flygon> I want Tesla Coil trains
13:16:30 <Flygon> Can train NewGRF's determine the amount of sparks they create?
13:17:08 <Flygon> It's a serious question
13:17:23 <andythenorth> it's a sore point for andythenorth
13:20:05 <V453000> well if your trains would be massively weak, they would use all of their effort all the time ... which would make a lot of sparks
13:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sparks have nothing to do with effort
13:21:04 <andythenorth> did you see in the FISH thread btw, someone has suggested ships should have smoke
13:21:14 <andythenorth> it's an intriguing idea
13:21:15 <V453000> I thought when train has a hard time, it makes more sparks
13:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what a stupid idea!! :p
13:21:28 <V453000> with the setting set to 2
13:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: sparks are usually caused by dirty spots on the catenary
13:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. when the contact between catenary and pantograph is weak
13:22:11 <V453000> well I meant things like steam, diesel smoke and electricity sparks coming from top of trains
13:22:14 <andythenorth> not so much in ottd :P
13:22:18 <planetmaker> does ice count as dirt? ;-)
13:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it's most common with ice
13:22:53 <V453000> still, diesel/steam is based on what the train is doing
13:22:57 <V453000> I think electricity just as well
13:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: steam puffs are not "sparks" :)
13:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the code calls them "effect vehicles", which cover all three types (and a little more)
13:28:07 <V453000> that is what Flygon was talking about isnt it
13:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> in the context of tesla coils? why would he talk about steam puffs?
13:29:06 <V453000> Can train NewGRF's determine the amount of sparks they create?
13:29:17 <Flygon> Yes, that's what I want to know
13:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> "spark" = "electricity effect"
13:29:42 <Flygon> The Tesla v1 train will be designed in 1894
13:29:42 <V453000> that is what I am saying all the fucking time :D
13:30:05 <Flygon> The Telsa v446 will come out in 2445 and will have the finest of Borg engineering
13:30:34 <V453000> I like anything imaginary
13:31:03 <Flygon> What about the Flygon Aircraft? :D
13:31:30 <Flygon> Half the room just groaned irl, I just know it
13:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 80% of the room is idle...
13:33:37 <Flygon> Half the active room :U
13:36:51 <Flygon> Because, I feel like an idiot right now
13:37:00 <Flygon> And I'd like to preserve what little humility I have left :p
13:39:12 <V453000> dont think this is Yello
13:41:45 <Flygon> Should I reply via query?
13:42:16 <Markk> At least in the summer.
13:42:28 <Markk> But right now I'm taking the bike to the train and back.
13:42:37 <Markk> You don't think I kinda want to?
13:42:41 <Flygon> Summer can go anywhere between 8c to 47c
13:42:42 <Markk> Bloody cold up here atm.
13:42:59 <Flygon> I tried to take my bike onto the Tram, and the driver said no :(
13:43:08 <Flygon> So my friend went on the tram, and I used my bike
13:43:14 <Flygon> As it turns out, bikes are faster than trams
13:43:25 <Flygon> ...and cars, and buses, and trucks, in the Melbourne CBD
13:43:57 <Flygon> But yeah, I tend to take my bike on the train too
14:19:42 <andythenorth> what noise does the whale make?
14:24:09 <andythenorth> so what have I done to break FIRS ground sprites? :p
14:29:24 <NGC3982> That's a very good song.
14:39:11 <andythenorth> how do I get openttd to complain about broken sprites?
14:39:14 <andythenorth> I need some debug
14:51:49 <planetmaker> might not have been you. might have been so before even
14:52:10 <planetmaker> might be related to invalid sprites being called, e.g. when drawing fences. maybe
14:52:23 <planetmaker> but not sure what you mean with "break"
14:53:20 <andythenorth> trying different FIRS versions suggests it was me :)
14:53:46 <andythenorth> iirc the layout is trying to draw sprite numbers that just don't exist (or so frosch told me)
14:54:02 <andythenorth> it's in old old pnml templates
14:54:14 <andythenorth> so unless it's an easy fix, I should just convert the affected industries
14:54:29 <andythenorth> issue shows as '?' sprite, or just flickering other sprites
14:55:07 <andythenorth> unfortunately, because I moved things it the repo, I've broken hg revision history on the affected files :P
15:26:07 <Ammler> yeah, I wonder how it is meant that hg rename should keep the history
15:26:49 <Ammler> but just use the old path with hg log
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16:13:43 <andythenorth> GS that 'uses' 'electricity'
16:14:04 <andythenorth> needs to measure production at power stations (use delivered cargo as proxy)
16:14:14 <andythenorth> needs to be tied to specific newgrfs
16:14:55 <andythenorth> needs to have some effect on town or other goals
16:15:28 <andythenorth> I had an idea called 'GridIron' which is basically build 1 power station per town for n towns, and deliver x thousand tonnes of coal
16:15:36 <andythenorth> it's a variation on cargo goal GS
16:18:30 <Pinkbeast> It does seem to be coal that most makes the producer-led model of OTTD a little painful
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18:41:33 * Alberth puts a cable through the channel
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24751 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-15 18:45:23 UTC)
18:45:33 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 13 changes by jhsoby
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> romanian - 36 changes by kkmic
18:45:36 <DorpsGek> swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
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19:03:11 <supermop> so no one is writing a power gs, but everyone is saying they'd like one
19:03:28 * Alberth has not said any such thing
19:03:45 <andythenorth> I am not writing one
19:03:55 <andythenorth> but I have a name and a concept - GridIron
19:04:01 <supermop> is this something i could conceivably do?
19:04:27 <supermop> and how would the GS recognize power production?
19:04:34 <Alberth> anyone can, given that you have enough itch
19:04:47 <supermop> it seems that simply looking for coal delivery isn't sufficient
19:04:52 <Zuu> a GS can monitor cargo delivery to industries/towns
19:05:33 <supermop> as some industry grfs could implement other types of power plants, not to mention industries that accept coal but do not produce pwer
19:06:02 <Alberth> supermop: don't try to get the optimal solution, just find any solution that works at first
19:06:06 <supermop> supplying the Firs concrete factory with coal shouldn't power an aluminum plant
19:06:06 <andythenorth> you have to tie it to specific grfs
19:06:21 <andythenorth> you need to look for an industry ID
19:06:30 <andythenorth> it's known to be a poor solution, but meh, try it
19:06:40 <Alberth> it's quite likely that once you have a solution, people will change their ideas
19:06:50 <supermop> can you look for any cargo delivered to industry type X?
19:06:59 <andythenorth> you can track delivered amounts
19:07:06 <Zuu> You can check that the industry type doesn't have any cargo output.
19:07:13 <andythenorth> right now the electricity debate has entered into bikeshedding territory :)
19:07:21 <andythenorth> or rather, just a noisy debate :P
19:07:40 <supermop> what angloism is this?
19:07:50 <andythenorth> arguing about what colour to paint the bikeshed at the nuclear power plant
19:08:09 <andythenorth> actually the electricity debate is not bikeshedding
19:08:13 <Zuu> supermop: You can monitor cargo of a specific cargo type diliveried/picked up to/from any industry by a specific company.
19:08:27 <andythenorth> supermop: just adapt NoCarGoal, or SiliconValley
19:08:34 <andythenorth> SV might have more of what you need already
19:08:57 <Zuu> Or you can monitor a specific town to get all cargo deliveried to houses and industries of that town.
19:09:01 <supermop> can a gs require specific grfs, or is it agnostic?
19:09:26 <Zuu> A GS cannot check for specific NewGRFs by NewGRF id or name.
19:09:28 <andythenorth> supermop: your readme.txt can require specific grfs :)
19:10:09 <andythenorth> GS should be able to mark grfs as dependencies
19:10:39 <supermop> what programming knowlege should I learn? do i need to knpow c?
19:16:37 * andythenorth wonders what will happen when it's discovered that only one GS per game is possible
19:16:44 <andythenorth> and that GS has limited magical powers
19:19:03 <supermop> if you wanted power and some other goal, it would be reasonable to write a new script that did both?
19:22:12 <Zuu> Yes, both would have to be in the same GS.
19:22:41 <Zuu> At some point we will probably see the first GS pack.
19:23:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: a nuclear plant must be fluorescent green-ish yellow
19:23:26 <supermop> how about objects that produce power but take no fuel, such as a wind farm or dam? can GS look for those specific items based on grf loaded or would there be another way?
19:24:39 <Zuu> There is currently not an API to access NewObjects and properties of them.
19:28:17 <Rubidium> is there even a property to signal such things in objects at all?
19:29:13 <Zuu> I guess such things would need to go via the name. Though now that I think of it, the name that the GS would see is probably subject to translations.
19:30:02 <supermop> can objects produce or accept cargo?
19:30:14 <Zuu> No, for that you want an industry.
19:30:17 <supermop> maybe dams etc would be better as industies or houses then
19:31:01 <andythenorth> requires: nothing
19:31:03 <andythenorth> produces: nothing
19:31:06 <supermop> industry that accepts and produces no cargo
19:31:58 <supermop> i was hoping there would be a way to but a flag on some tiles (of anything) that says: this tile produces power
19:32:03 <supermop> and gs looks at that
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19:33:36 <andythenorth> no way to do that
19:33:38 <andythenorth> how much of town control is implemented?
19:33:44 <supermop> kwh or mwh as a cargo would be good if one could forbid it from being transported
19:33:59 <supermop> then gs looks for mwh produced
19:34:22 <__ln__> i made a patch for that in ~2004
19:34:47 <Zuu> Or just don't make any industries that accept mwh?
19:35:06 <supermop> and you get the satisfaction of seeing a coal plant's productivity in its window
19:35:16 <andythenorth> that could be done in text
19:35:21 <andythenorth> but not in a way GS could read
19:35:44 <andythenorth> do what can be done now
19:36:03 <andythenorth> there are lots of ideas kicking around, but little interest in actually implementing :)
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19:36:11 <andythenorth> same as you said on forums
19:36:33 <supermop> can i mess around with gs on note pad or similar?
19:36:47 <Zuu> You can use notepad if you like
19:37:01 <Zuu> Pretty much any text editor is enough.
19:37:15 <Zuu> And OpenTTD to run the GS of course :-)
19:37:32 <supermop> i don't need a compiler?
19:37:44 <supermop> (don't really get what a compiler is)
19:37:57 <Zuu> No, OpenTTD have everything built in to intreprete the .nut files.
19:38:55 <Zuu> To my understanding it reads the source files and does some sort of compiling/intrepreteing when you start a game to not have to read the .nut files letter by letter when it executes the script. But this all happen inside of OpenTTD.
19:39:27 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki has nothing about town control
19:40:51 <Zuu> What you want to watch out for is statements like these "Valid GSCompanyMode active in scope." in the description of an API. That means that it must perform that action on behalf of a company.
19:41:24 <Zuu> s/description/list of preconditions/
19:43:32 <Zuu> In several cases patches that lift these restrictions will probably be accepted. However, many of these require more than just a one-line change and making sure you don't break anything. For example the industry construction for GS change took me several hours to prepare.
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19:44:50 <Zuu> I don't want to discourage anyone from looking at other restrictions, just saying that going over all and lifting where possible, will take time.
19:49:32 <Rubidium> ... and even then bugs might creep up years later ;)
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21:11:32 <supermop> has no one said anything in the past hour?
21:19:18 <__ln__> everything's been said already, there's nothing more to discuss.
21:20:51 <supermop> yep might as well decommission the channel
21:21:57 <Supercheese> Hmm, I haven't yet learned how to code GS
21:22:21 <__ln__> so, would anyone here be willing to emigrate to Mars?
21:22:38 <Supercheese> No way, the latency on mutliplayer games would be horrendous
21:33:00 <Supercheese> So... even if one were to write an Electricity-related gamescript... what should it do, exactly?
21:33:27 <planetmaker> *that* is the good question ;-)
21:33:34 <Supercheese> That's the $64,000 question
21:34:03 <supermop> i will write a GS for $64,000
21:34:04 <planetmaker> I'd suggest to implement it like boosting or even enabling town growth, if nearby power plant receives coal
21:34:09 <supermop> i'll need 50% up front
21:34:14 <Supercheese> There's one suggestion
21:34:17 <Rubidium> spark the user's imagination?
21:34:34 <Supercheese> some folks seem to want electricity generation required to run electrified trains
21:34:53 <Rubidium> good luck starting in 2050 then
21:34:54 <Supercheese> I personally don't care for that feature, but more importantly, is that even possible?
21:35:01 <supermop> i don't know if it would be
21:35:14 <Rubidium> or actually, good luck starting any time...
21:35:28 <Rubidium> as trucks/busses would then need diesel
21:35:30 <Supercheese> Horse-drawn stuff?
21:35:35 <supermop> i think if you do that, you need well supplied oil refineries too
21:35:41 <Rubidium> horses need straw/grain
21:35:50 <Supercheese> First route must be from farm
21:36:03 <supermop> humans buy their own food with their salary
21:36:04 <Rubidium> steam trains need coal
21:36:09 <Supercheese> Heyyy... there are no rickshaws are there
21:36:18 * Supercheese wonders how hard it would be to draw them
21:36:27 <Rubidium> rickshaws are not impossible
21:36:30 <supermop> but only if you have a productive food industry!
21:36:34 <Supercheese> or bicycles, for that matter. Both would probably be like 5 pixels though
21:36:47 <Supercheese> but the scales are so out of whack anyway
21:36:53 <Supercheese> might as well make bicycles the size of buses
21:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the first railway companies to use electric traction usually built their own power plant
21:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> in switzerland and bavaria they used water power, and in central germany coal power
21:37:49 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that needs building materials
21:37:56 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: not just because of no other generation, but also because they didn't have good enough long distance transmission yet
21:38:20 <supermop> so force user to build feeder plants
21:38:30 <supermop> and watering stations for steam
21:38:35 <Zuu> Making a power GS that work on the default industries should be fairly simple. Restrict it to watch dead-end industries that take the only cargo with the label "COAL". If > X coal units have been received for a town the last month, enable town growth of that town, otherwise disable it.
21:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the tram companies also often were the first ones to bring electricity to a town
21:38:58 <Supercheese> Water towers for steam engines are already drawn
21:39:07 <Supercheese> so are coal loaders
21:39:25 <Supercheese> and I guess wood loaders for wood-burning
21:39:29 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: false, we do have electricity, but not trams
21:39:36 <supermop> now just make them mandatory for confused new users
21:39:43 <Zuu> For powered engines, abuse the ability to sell player vehicles to sell electric engines if they aren't bought in a depot that have a powerplant nearby.
21:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i said _often_
21:40:03 <supermop> Zuu: i thought of that
21:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> in the years 1885..1900
21:40:32 <supermop> i actually like playing maps with only one depot
21:40:43 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I suggest you start counting the number of cities with trams, and the number of cities with electricity then :p
21:40:52 <supermop> and scheduling non-revenue movements to get trains to their lines
21:40:55 <Supercheese> Gamescripts cannot affect industry production changes, correct?
21:41:22 <Zuu> The later hower need to have a check that runns fairly often which means that you cannot check coal delivery of all towns in one go but need to do some towns, and then check all depots for illegal electric trains and then go back to checking delivery etc.
21:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you misunderstand me on purpose...
21:41:40 <planetmaker> and it's conceptionally questionable whether they will. From my POV the most they'll ever can be made to do is ask the industry (newgrf) to change production
21:41:43 <supermop> now we just need trains stranded on the tracks because you didn't generate enough power last month
21:41:48 <planetmaker> which it may ignore and totally do its own thing
21:41:57 <Supercheese> GRF/Gamescript interfacing sounds good
21:42:06 <supermop> or ran out of steam or diesel
21:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: under the condition of a town having an electric tram system [now or in the past], count the number of towns which had electricity before that tram system was introduced.
21:42:38 <supermop> then we write a GS where your goal is to refund irate passengers their money
21:42:48 <Alberth> supermop: and then it gets fun bringing coal over the same set of tracks :p
21:42:54 <Zuu> planetmaker: Even if NewGRF _can_ veto, its possible for someone to make a NewGRF that doesn't veto which makes it suitable to use along with a GS that do detailed control.
21:43:16 <supermop> (Refunded $10234 out of $2000000 last month!)
21:43:24 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you probably win then
21:43:57 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes, of course. I know already a NewGRF which likely then would support it. Or two ;-)
21:44:12 <supermop> Also supply food to depots to stock the snack cart on passenger trains
21:44:59 <supermop> (can't build plane! Must supply 20 crates of small soda cans this month to build 737!)
21:46:22 <planetmaker> and helium to lift it :-P
21:48:36 <supermop> if one really wanted to go down this route it would be best to just discount running cost on a per traction type basis
21:48:56 <supermop> not sure GS can do that
21:54:48 <supermop> planetmaker: must deliver the helium quickly though or it will leak out of the crates!
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22:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: we have "late delivery" penalties for that
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