IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-28
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06:33:06 <andythenorth> we *should* remove the ability to change grfs in game
06:33:06 <andythenorth> newgrfs are done
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06:36:56 <planetmaker> yes. Especially as updating a newgrf for a newgrf developer still would work
06:36:56 <planetmaker> just overwrite the file and keep testing
06:36:57 <andythenorth> I'd just patch to put changing grfs back in :P
06:36:57 <planetmaker> which is from my POV the most often used thing
06:36:57 <andythenorth> we just move the problem upstream to 'people who are capable of patching' :P
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06:39:07 <andythenorth> invert the mouse if newgrfs are changed :P
06:39:11 <andythenorth> or the palette :P
06:39:28 <andythenorth> or put a scrolling marquee across the middle of the screen
06:39:46 <Supercheese> Set the music to Rickroll.midi
06:40:10 <Supercheese> and still disallow changes :P
06:40:21 <andythenorth> make it show goatse :P
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06:56:13 *** charon.oftc.net sets mode: +oo Terkhen planetmaker
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08:06:42 <NGC3982> What's a good morning greeting in dutch?
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08:08:42 <V453000> or something like that
08:08:53 <V453000> everybody wakes up to that
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08:16:22 <planetmaker> Terkhen, we really need the new scenario style ;-) Then we can forbid newgrf changes ... candy and stick ;-)
08:16:53 <planetmaker> and possibly frosch's newgrf sandbox
08:17:14 <bolli> A dedicated server has the line "Killed" at the end of the log, any idea what that means?
08:17:58 <Terkhen> I know, last sunday I almost finished the first batch of codechanges
08:18:20 <planetmaker> bolli, it just means that. terminated by the OS
08:18:20 <Terkhen> it's going slow but I want it to be in 1.3.X
08:18:45 <Terkhen> but as usual no promises
08:19:05 <bolli> so something has zapped all my ottd servers? :|
08:19:17 <planetmaker> of course not, Terkhen :-)
08:19:26 <planetmaker> bolli, I'd think so
08:19:35 <planetmaker> but... you might paste the log somewhere
08:41:14 <NGC3982> 'Gezondheid' sounds suspicially alike gesundheit.
08:41:29 <NGC3982> Ah, both describes health.
08:58:07 <peter1138> Xorg ... 2.2 GB resident. Useful o_O
09:00:00 <peter1138> Along with a virtual machine, and monodevelop also using up 2 GB for no reason, I have run out of 8GB RAM...
09:17:49 <NGC3982> That sounds like a lot
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13:06:54 <thomas001> Hello, i'd like to refit my trains in a depot. as my station is pretty heavy loaded i want to use multiple depots for the refitting, but unfortunately i cannot figure out how to do this, as i can only specify a single depot in a train's schedule. Is there a way to use several depots for refitting?
13:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "goto nearest depot" option
13:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which is affected by signals and track occupation
13:09:24 <thomas001> oh...but if all my depots for refitting are full, then the train will go to some depot far away?
13:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there is a maximum distance
13:09:59 <planetmaker> depots cannot be overfull, though
13:10:17 <planetmaker> each depot has an infinite amount of space... or at least for as many trains as you're allowed
13:10:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but it might not choose the one that's gonna be free next in that case
13:11:02 <thomas001> yes i meant if i have for example 2 depots, and in both depots a train is entering or exiting...then a third train comes and executes "go to nearest depot"...will it go do a depot far away?
13:11:46 <planetmaker> it will not unconditionally find another depot. Whatever the pathfinder finds the "cheapest"
13:12:25 <thomas001> hmm okay, thank you
13:14:00 <michi_cc> thomas001: Load a NewGRF that supports autorefit and you might not need a depot anymore ;)
13:14:21 <thomas001> but then the challenge is gone ;)
13:16:50 <planetmaker> Use the NoCarGoal game script... and the pressure is back on ;-) (with the right parameters)
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14:18:21 <y2000rtc> I have question for last versions of OpenTTD. It is possible to have any rails only with vagons? I mean for nice graphics.
14:20:11 <lugo> there's an invisible engine grf
14:21:25 <y2000rtc> Ok, perfect lugo. Thanks a lot.
14:22:13 <y2000rtc> Don't you have any similar tips for better graphics? :o)
14:31:43 <Fremen> there is so many stuff
14:39:06 <planetmaker> y2000rtc: your "better" might not be my "better"
14:44:01 <SpComb> This security update fixes CVE-2012-3436 (Denial of service (server) using ships on half tiles and landscaping).
14:44:07 <SpComb> somehow that's amusing :)
15:02:16 <SpComb> DoS attack using ships
15:03:34 <SpComb> maybe someone should check that apache isn't vulnerable to ships on half-tiles as well? :)
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17:07:49 <Alberth> TrueBrain here! hi hi!
17:09:01 <Alberth> the biggest news seems to be a never ending thread about newgrf changing :(
17:09:22 <TrueBrain> popcorn with a capital P
17:10:22 <Alberth> in that case, just hit CAPS-LOCK :p
17:12:37 <Alberth> this morning I wondered about handling processing of nested if/elif/else/endif constructs, and ended with a nice macro idea for nml. Not sure that is a good sign :)
17:13:08 <TrueBrain> tells me you are bored :P
17:14:04 <Alberth> yeah, writing documentation all day about stuff you know in full detail already is not really inspiring :)
17:14:54 <Yexo> is writing documentation ever inspiring?
17:15:16 <Alberth> when it helps to shape your ideas, it is
17:16:01 <Alberth> except those are usually mostly drawing with boxes and arrows and random words sprinkled around ;)
17:16:23 <Yexo> yep, I know that kind of "documentation" :p
17:16:43 <TrueBrain> yeah, it is becoming old
17:17:22 <peter1138> oh, changing a newgrf
17:36:55 <Belugas> [13:14] <@Yexo> is writing documentation ever inspiring? <-- good exercise of code review, in fact, at least for me :)
17:43:58 <TrueBrain> 503 Service Temporary Not Available
17:45:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24501 /trunk/src/lang/russian.txt:
17:45:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by kuriatoru
17:46:07 <Alberth> Nice, you repaired the CIA
17:46:42 <Wolf01> I'm always in trouble when I need to give the correct response with ajax calls :P
17:48:07 <Zuu> And there are some interesting odd response codes in the spec.
17:48:35 <Wolf01> but never the one you need to
17:51:45 <frosch123> hmm, it's tuesday...
17:51:56 <frosch123> i thought it was wednesday for sure
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17:52:36 <Alberth> mahybe you jumped back a day?
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18:44:10 <Belugas> andythenorth, I do second tyour motion
18:44:19 <Belugas> bu but but but...you'll be out of job then!
18:44:32 <andythenorth> bored of the whole stupid debate
18:44:44 <andythenorth> I nearly flamed nearly every respondent to that thread
18:44:54 <andythenorth> but I'm doing some work instead :P
18:45:12 <andythenorth> there is nothing much gained by me being a wanker :P
18:45:15 <Belugas> i have to say, i got bored as well...
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18:45:47 <Hyronymus> IRC through Thunderbird
18:47:04 <andythenorth> instead of developer tools, rename the setting 'fuck_my_game'
18:47:13 <andythenorth> 'fuck_my_game' = 1
18:47:47 <andythenorth> - random timer, game will quit after n minutes if developer tools is on
18:48:09 <andythenorth> - detect changed newgrfs, randomly clear 100 tiles on every game tick
18:48:23 <andythenorth> basically we should introduce loads of deliberate bugs
18:48:37 <andythenorth> players will start ascribing them to 'oh, I changed newgrfs'
18:49:12 <andythenorth> if all players get these bugs from 'changed newgrfs'...then forum regulars will start spreading the news that 'changing newgrfs is bad'
18:49:31 <andythenorth> meanwhile we'll recognise the enormouse bugs and close them as 'changed newgrfs'
18:50:01 <andythenorth> and I will patch my build to ignore the 'bugs' so I can actually write fricking newgrf
18:50:11 <andythenorth> seriously, developer tools should require recompiling openttd
18:51:41 <Yexo> that's feasible for you, but why should an AI or newgrf developer have to recompile openttd?
18:52:07 <Alberth> patch at binary level is fine too :D
18:52:31 <Yexo> hmm, force a recompile, provide binaries that enable it but disable networking for those
18:52:42 <Yexo> means no servers running it, and easy to identify in bug reports
18:54:47 <Alberth> error message "Cannot save game, you have enabled changing of newgrfs"
18:55:07 <Alberth> s/changing of newgrfs/developer tools/
18:55:35 <andythenorth> turn off saving +1
18:55:44 <andythenorth> infinite money immediately
18:56:06 <andythenorth> (I have so pressed 'increase money by £10m *so* many times while testing FIRS) :P
18:56:35 <andythenorth> disable saving would make it hard to share bugs :P
18:57:59 <Alberth> tbh it is quite a long time ago since the previous thread
18:58:12 <Alberth> perhaps the problem is declining?
18:58:25 <Alberth> the current thread is just running out of control
18:59:00 <andythenorth> I think there are a few of us looking for an argument :P
19:01:30 <andythenorth> I am not trolling in that thread btw, I am genuinely annoyed :)
19:01:58 <andythenorth> I infer a sense of entitlement from some players (who don't contribute anything) that annoys me :P
19:02:54 <Alberth> everybody has an opinion about it and thinks it's interesting to say it
19:03:22 <Alberth> it's just one big mess of opinions without any foundation
19:03:25 * Rubidium agrees with andythenorth's last point
19:04:51 <Rubidium> though I wonder whether people realise what gets axed if everything that requires NewGRFs is axed
19:05:32 <Alberth> it's safe to assume they don't know :)
19:06:18 <Rubidium> I'd start with bringing signals back to just one type
19:06:48 <Rubidium> and disabling of autorail
19:07:42 <frosch123> next is build on slopes :)
19:08:07 <Belugas> just play plain TTD ;)
19:08:40 <andythenorth> removing things is fun
19:08:48 * andythenorth is removing things from another app at the moment
19:09:11 <frosch123> you can release the old app next year with lots of new featues
19:09:26 <frosch123> just like pricing is made at supermarkets :)
19:09:26 <andythenorth> just make a paid version :P
19:09:32 <andythenorth> we can do paid support
19:09:36 <andythenorth> like red hat and such
19:10:02 <andythenorth> we can employ someone to run ZenDesk
19:10:15 <andythenorth> paid version will allow changing newgrfs in game
19:10:22 <andythenorth> if you report broken
19:10:52 <andythenorth> "You changed newgrfs in game, this feature is unsupported, there is no further help available at this time. Check back in future to see if this issue has been updated"
19:19:03 <frosch123> how much does it cost to call you and ask why one cannot change grfs in game?
19:19:27 <frosch123> how many calls of that type can you handle per hour?
19:19:37 <frosch123> how many hours per week?
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19:22:18 <andythenorth> I would employ someone
19:22:29 <andythenorth> min. wage for 16 year olds is about £3.50 :P
19:22:38 <andythenorth> we offer helpdesk office hours only :P
19:24:44 <frosch123> is that 8/5 support?
19:24:54 <Rubidium> wow... that rail looks bad
19:26:10 <andythenorth> how many paying players do we need?
19:26:24 <andythenorth> how much is a monthly support contract? €10?
19:26:48 <andythenorth> support is weekdays only
19:27:10 <andythenorth> @calc 3.5 * 8 * 21
19:27:29 <andythenorth> 196 paying players at £3 ea
19:27:41 <andythenorth> + zendesk subscription
19:27:53 <andythenorth> + billing, taxes, bank charges
19:28:07 <andythenorth> + employer's liability insurance, indemnity insurance
19:28:16 <andythenorth> + computer, desk + chair
19:28:30 <andythenorth> + cover for holidays + sickness
19:28:39 <andythenorth> running a business is easy :)
19:30:04 <andythenorth> we probably need about £50k / year revenue and it will work
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19:40:05 <__ln__> hello from baile atha cliath
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20:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> who put andythenorth in troll mode?
20:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that sounds irish
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20:02:51 <__ln__> "dublin" in englandese
20:03:49 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I found it quite relevant to many OpenTTD discussions
20:14:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I aksed myself the same question :)
20:16:04 <andythenorth> nobody can ever tell what I am serious about, and when I am simply talking crap because I like the sound of it :(
20:16:16 <TrueBrain> the latter is what we call trolling :)
20:16:22 <TrueBrain> and I doubt you were serious
20:16:27 <TrueBrain> so we did manage to find the difference ;)
20:16:42 <andythenorth> I was serious about locking newgrf tools
20:16:48 <andythenorth> I was less serious about paid openttd
20:16:56 <andythenorth> mostly because I don't think it's profitable :P
20:16:56 <TrueBrain> I meant your reply ;)
20:17:03 <andythenorth> delete all newgrf?
20:17:10 <andythenorth> seriously, why not? :o
20:17:15 <andythenorth> what would we lose?
20:17:44 <andythenorth> with default industries :P
20:18:15 <andythenorth> do other games allow adding / removing mods while a game is running?
20:18:53 <andythenorth> "I would like to change my RAM chips while my computer is running please"
20:19:07 <TrueBrain> most games you have to cycle
20:19:09 <andythenorth> incidentally I pulled a SATA drive out from a running mac on saturday with no ill-effects :P
20:19:20 <andythenorth> it didn't keep running so much :P
20:19:27 <andythenorth> I guess they're hot-swap
20:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i once came up with the likeness of exchanging the engine while driving on the motorway.
20:19:35 <TrueBrain> SATA is hot swap :)
20:19:37 <TrueBrain> I pull it all the time :)
20:20:08 <andythenorth> after I did it, I had a small moment of 'fuck, now I have three broken macs instead of one' :P
20:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you should make sure to unmount the drive first, because the filesystem is usually not hotplug :p
20:20:17 <andythenorth> as I also plugged in another drive :P
20:21:27 <michi_cc> You can buy machines with hot-swap RAM if you want. It's not *that* exotic anymore.
20:22:03 <andythenorth> I kind of wonder where your data goes during the swap :P
20:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't want to shut down your multi-billion-dollars-per-second banking computer just to exchange a broken ram module
20:22:33 <michi_cc> Online capacity grow or replacement of modules with increasing errors.
20:22:57 <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's called RAIM (i.e. a RAID for memory).
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20:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you obviously want some redundancy before trying that :)
20:23:54 <TrueBrain> that exists? Lolz :)
20:23:59 <TrueBrain> sounds rather useless, with ECC etc :P
20:25:24 <michi_cc> Rather ECC sound quite useless to me. Single bit error correction, two bit error detection (won't get you you're data back) and from three errors you're screwed. If a RAM really goes bad, it's probably going to be the whole IC.
20:26:10 <TrueBrain> at least it detects it :D
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20:36:33 <drac_boy> hi Terkhen how're you?
20:42:00 <drac_boy> doing ok, just online for a bit now :)
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20:53:56 <Asteconn> Have I joined in the middle of a netsplit?
20:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the wine way of "uninstalling" stuff?
21:00:30 <andythenorth> rm all the things!
21:00:35 * andythenorth is going to sleep
21:00:37 <Rubidium> Asteconn: most of the people do not say anything at all in here, furthermore it's late at night for a quite significant part of the community
21:00:43 <andythenorth> I am a bad person when I have not enough sleep
21:00:59 <andythenorth> this channel is mostly quiet, apart from the bit that is me
21:01:06 <Asteconn> Rubidium: Oh no not that - I meant the slew of people rejoining at once
21:01:10 <andythenorth> I should get my own channel to monologue in
21:01:17 <Supercheese> That's called a blog
21:01:19 <Asteconn> So I was all "hmmmmmmmm... o.ô"
21:01:40 <andythenorth> blogs take too much effort
21:01:45 <Rubidium> three people in a minute doesn't sound netsplit-ish to me in this channel
21:02:10 <Rubidium> netsplit is more like dozens of people
21:02:17 <Asteconn> I could have been joining at the end of all of the reconnects
21:03:01 <Asteconn> I decided firstly that I needed to lurk moar
21:04:04 <Asteconn> I also came along to see if I could pick someone's brains about ways to manage the crossovers for a 6-line terminus, but I think I have that nailed now ^_^
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21:12:25 <Asteconn> I find it quite annoying when a new train is released and is at a worse reliability rating than the one(s) it replaced
21:12:57 <Supercheese> I never play with breakdowns, so reliability doesn't really matter to me...
21:15:51 <drac_boy> Asteconn six lines...why?
21:16:18 <Asteconn> I've got four different routes converging on the same station
21:16:36 <Asteconn> I find playing without reliability to not be as fun =3
21:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Asteconn: new trains need time to get their reliability up
21:17:51 <Asteconn> Oh yes, I know =] The HST has been out for 3 years now? And it's at 81%. The Merchant Navies I was running before were all 98%
21:19:24 <Alberth> I usually don't care the early offers, not reliable enough to use
21:20:23 <Asteconn> I always try and build at least one groups worth of prototype HSTs if I can. In UKRS2 they have an awesome skin available only during that year
21:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "wine uninstaller" was the answer to my previous question
21:22:25 <Alberth> I don't use many newgrfs, vehicle newgrfs usually come with too much choice for me
21:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (just for reference)
21:23:03 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: aka 'rm' ? :)
21:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "rm" doesn't clean out the registry and stuff :)
21:23:57 <Alberth> use it more liberally, and you'll find it cleans very well :D
21:24:07 <Asteconn> I prefer the choice actually
21:24:12 <Asteconn> Oíche mhaith agat ^^
21:24:34 <Alberth> I like building networks more than running trains
21:24:37 <Asteconn> Makes planning new lines a little more interesting
21:24:58 <Alberth> perhaps I should try it again some time
21:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i found like 7GiB worth of newly freed space :)
21:27:24 <Asteconn> I discovered that I had an entire hard drive not plummed in once
21:27:58 * drac_boy prefers real steam locomotives and some actual lowspeed electrics
21:28:18 <drac_boy> so original vehicles are so out of the question :p especially what with no tenders for former and a lack of latter
21:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> indeed, the original vehicles are amazingly boring
21:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea how i ever could like such a game :p
21:29:15 <Asteconn> Although they're very adequate for newbies
21:30:22 <Asteconn> I quite like the choice between 3rd rail and overhead electrics too
21:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really get warm with UKRS, though
21:30:50 <Asteconn> I played the original UKRS for a long time
21:30:58 <Asteconn> I still prefer the scaling of the original
21:31:15 <drac_boy> asteconn I never liked ukrs too much, worser with the newer version of ukrs1 ... ukrs2 is hmm well a little better but still meh
21:31:29 <Asteconn> I quite liked UKRS1 actually
21:32:33 <drac_boy> dbsetxl, japanset, pineapple+extension, canset, and mm still trying that swiss one once in a while but they still have a bit more work to go
21:35:27 <Asteconn> I'm happy with just the UKRS =3
21:35:45 <Asteconn> I also think that trains look /really/ strange if their fronts aren't yellow
21:36:31 <drac_boy> Asteconn well tbh I prefer to have short infrequent trains so the shrunk capacity that ukrs1/2 has is just a major throwoff tbh
21:37:09 <Asteconn> Does it have shrunk capacity? o.ô
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21:37:50 <drac_boy> nothing than finding that for freight starts your 1920 german train only has a short single station platform while your 1940 british doubleheaded train has a pair of long platforms
21:38:05 <drac_boy> and the funny thing is the info window shows similar capacity for both trains :-|
21:42:40 <drac_boy> Asteconn and btw one small thing to think about...
21:43:16 <drac_boy> why it it that for the whole ukrs thing .. only the ukrs1 expansion even had one single electric locomotive for 1920 .. and a slow freight drag type at it?
21:43:37 <drac_boy> nothing else till you wait till 1960 which by then the earlier start date is a bit pointless :)
21:44:17 <drac_boy> of course I haven't bothered reading the long ukrs addon thread on forum so maybe something is in the plans...no idea tho
21:46:00 <Asteconn> UKRS1 had two early electrics - one for freight and one for express stuff - they were 1925ish iirc
21:46:26 <drac_boy> you're thinking of the one I mentioned which was actually 1914 btw
21:46:33 <Supercheese> UKRS 2 has those, the EF1 and EE1
21:46:54 <Supercheese> Well, the addon set does
21:47:33 <drac_boy> and just for the contrast sake .. start with dbsetxl and you have 60-90km/h boxcabs already, and the crocodile for medium speed heavy trains is due by then as well. or japan in 1920 well...some unusual electric locos aside to the typical emus
21:48:14 <drac_boy> canset of course was just like the real canada.. electrics in 1920 was only on interurban or local freights up to till BC finally did their electric locos over the mountain
21:49:25 <Asteconn> There's the EM1 and EM2 released in 1941 and 1953 too. And of course you get a really early 3rd rail passenger vehicle too
21:49:56 <drac_boy> mm well 1920>1941 is a rather long wait to me? heh :)
21:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> DBSet is missing some of the pre-war high end electric engines
21:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> like the E04 (130km/h) and E18 (150km/h)
21:52:21 <drac_boy> I think that was on purpose due to limiting ids to keep space for much later locos
21:52:39 <drac_boy> although I've seen two supposedly dbsetxl addons in the banana list tho
21:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the DBSet 0.9 is supposed to have both of them
21:53:43 <drac_boy> and heh to be honest I sometimes find myself smacking into the vehicles sprite limit at times as well (not entirely related to but still linked to dbsetxl nevertheless)
21:54:00 <Asteconn> Depends on the locomotive really. I only ever use the EM1 and the EF1 as freight haulers. If the EM1 is worthwhile I'll always use them for slow coal trains.
21:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what sprite limit?
21:54:28 <drac_boy> Asteconn either way sometimes if you're really into pax and not so much for freights you really should be trying the whole set of japan grfs ... you'll find enough trains to rush or pamper passengers with :P
21:54:33 <drac_boy> thats my own thought tho ;)
21:54:55 <drac_boy> rush = commuter trains .. pamper = express trains ... just in case you were lost :)
21:56:36 <drac_boy> oh Asteconn before I almost forgot, the real JNR had some interesting historic tidbits as well. I've been saving some nice photos as well
21:57:14 <drac_boy> like eg a string of special container wagons behind everyday steam power? japan somehow didn't think that was usual considering they ran steam well into the 1970s and a little bit of 1980s anyway :)
21:57:28 <drac_boy> in any other countries that would had already been diesel or electric power instead
21:57:33 <Asteconn> I use either Suburbans or Panniers for commuter and rural lines, and usually steam for express ones, but depending on the reliabilities of the 90mph+ engines
21:58:01 <drac_boy> Asteconn heh well japan train set had it right when they used different carriages for commuters verus express ...
21:58:28 <drac_boy> because to be honest..express is always spaced seats with no standing space .. and only 2-4 doors .. while commuter is standing space with several sets of doors
21:58:45 <drac_boy> I don't know of any other train grfs that has this seperation yet
21:59:51 <drac_boy> its no wonder that the short commuter emu can grab 200 passengers in a few ticks then run off while the medium express train takes a few game days to load 200 on the other hand
22:00:00 <Asteconn> You get the different carriage types in UKRS2
22:00:22 <Asteconn> Although generally, with a few exceptions for later trains, they're interchangable
22:00:49 <drac_boy> hmm so they have any with 6 or 8 sets of doors in ukrs2? just wondering
22:01:03 <Asteconn> But I wouldn't really want to put Clerestory carriages on a train that can go faster than 80
22:01:26 <drac_boy> Asteconn 80km or 80mph?
22:02:00 <Asteconn> There are yes, but functionally they're not really much different
22:02:29 <Asteconn> Although if you couple up a standard carriage to something like the AM10, its loading time drops quite a bit
22:02:35 <Asteconn> They had multiple doors on
22:02:39 <drac_boy> hmm yeah 140km/h might be a really good time to have a modern streamlined steel carriage instead
22:02:42 <drac_boy> otherwise for 100km/h it didn't really matter, thats what a lot of the old express trains ran at
22:03:43 <Asteconn> The UKRS has articulated carriages for 120mph running
22:03:59 <drac_boy> nothing like an PRR owned atlantic (a 4-4-2 if you would) with large drivers doing a bit over 100km/h with several heavyweight wagons in tow
22:05:03 <drac_boy> Asteconn what did you think of the 2-6-4T in ukrs btw?
22:05:24 <NGC3982> When can i use the logic engine?
22:05:31 <NGC3982> I can't seem to find it.
22:05:37 <drac_boy> you talking of the NUTS set ngc3982?
22:06:03 <Asteconn> I find the 2-6-4 very handy if its reliable enough
22:06:15 <NGC3982> No, the logic engine from the logic engine grf.
22:06:34 <Asteconn> Have you got the thing enabled?
22:06:43 <Asteconn> Also - try putting it at the top of your GRFs list
22:07:17 <drac_boy> Asteconn mm well I am a little crazy for tank locomotives at times :->
22:07:25 <NGC3982> Bah, im in the middle of a server game.
22:07:47 <drac_boy> Asteconn after all when compared to tender you have slight shorter train with a bit higher tractive possible as well
22:07:58 <drac_boy> one more wagon on a level route pretty easily
22:08:15 <Asteconn> Depends if I'm after speed or not, and if it's at all reliable
22:08:36 <Asteconn> Can't be doing with anything less than 80%, and I try to avoid anything less than 85%
22:08:40 <drac_boy> eg 1700hp 140kN and take 1.7 tiles length verus 1700hp 154kN and barely fit within one tile
22:08:59 <Asteconn> Which engine are you comparing it to?
22:09:26 <drac_boy> and I always run anything thats between 70% to 99% straight out of the depot ... after all my trains almost always get serviced each turn anyway
22:09:37 <drac_boy> 'which engine'? between a tender and tank version of the same chassis ofc
22:10:41 <Asteconn> I don't have service orders on mine - I just pepper my lines with depots between stations
22:10:52 <drac_boy> heh I don't have any orders neither actually
22:11:02 <drac_boy> its a matter of placement of the right signals ;)
22:11:06 <Asteconn> I tell you one engine that /is/ quite remarkable
22:11:29 <Asteconn> Especially its early release date
22:11:46 <drac_boy> btw I know I'm being a bit crazy here but I always thought that a ukrs2 expansion (or ukrs3 either way) should include the one infamous locomotive that got axed due to politics
22:12:24 <drac_boy> you want to guess what looked like a diesel locomotive but had more chunky trucks ... and actually was a steam locomotive on the inside of the body? :P
22:13:00 <drac_boy> I keep forgetting the name for that one-off locomotive tho :/
22:13:17 <drac_boy> politics didn't want 'new' steam locomotives so that was what caused its short life
22:13:26 <Asteconn> Yes that was the Leader
22:13:57 <Asteconn> I thought it wasn't pursued because it was rubbish? xD
22:14:09 <drac_boy> well Asteconn I might sound crazy but there is one more conventional locomotive to think about too...
22:14:44 <drac_boy> the uk garrats ... sure they may have not been as reliable as any other standard steamers but still...it could be a bonus for someone who is playing ukrs on a hilly map tho
22:14:57 <drac_boy> and btw sorry to stop this short but I need to afk for a while :-s
22:28:38 <Sacro> why doesn't array_keys do what I explect
22:32:11 <Sacro> All I want todo is use array_keys, pass in an array, but only select "CA_MSG", "CB_MSG" or "CC_MSG"
22:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not touching php with a 30 centimeter pole
22:40:23 <drac_boy> Asteconn still there? :)
22:44:14 * drac_boy actually uses a bit of php at times
22:44:21 <drac_boy> admittly just the basic parts
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22:54:02 <drac_boy> Asteconn so what happened...bad connection?
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22:55:43 <drac_boy> Asteconn so about the lner garrats..heres something slight funny I recall...
22:56:43 <drac_boy> train with two U1's heading lickey incline ... failed or stalled for some reason ... so big bertha came to the assist ... was the only one time you had that many drive axles in a single train! :)
23:00:42 <drac_boy> Asteconn btw if you thought the Leader was unusual theres another one... at least one or more uk locomotive could burn onsite peat for fuel .. was so much cheaper for them ... the peat was more or less just a sidewaste as I recall
23:00:47 <Kylie> Question: I got 1.2.2. What are the best NewGRFs for me to get?
23:01:00 <drac_boy> Kylie what kind of networks do you generally like to run?
23:01:05 <Supercheese> That depends on your tastes
23:01:30 <Supercheese> Although I daresay most folk would agree that Av8 is the "best" aircraft set
23:01:37 <Kylie> train and bus/truck drac_boy
23:01:44 * drac_boy prefers to use russiaplanes thank you
23:01:57 <drac_boy> kylie...trains..as in lot of long trains or what? :p
23:02:36 <Kylie> I like coal/passenger trins.
23:02:45 <Asteconn> Kylie: Personally, run at least 1 new GRF for each transport type. I use UKRS2+, eGRVTS 1.0, Generic Tram Set, Modern Tram Set, FISH, and NuTracks
23:02:47 <drac_boy> kylie hmm well its really up to you but dbsetxl for a nice mix starting in 1920 ... japanset if you like a lot of pax ... or 2cc if you pretty much want to "sample" everything around the world
23:03:10 <Asteconn> 2CC is also a good one
23:03:20 <Asteconn> Although I don't use it myself
23:03:26 <drac_boy> problem with 2cc is its buy list is too thick .. and you have very little option in filtering it :/
23:03:40 <Supercheese> Best thing about NewGRFs is you can use as many as you want, up to the max allowed (~64 or so)
23:03:49 <Supercheese> So you can run, say, both Av8 and russian planes
23:03:57 <Fremen> using 2cc/eGRVTS/av8/FISH now + some new buildings, 2cc is heavy though, thinking it's not for me :p
23:03:58 <Supercheese> and as many other aircraft as you fancy
23:03:59 <Kylie> Interesting re 'subway' in 2cc
23:04:16 <drac_boy> and hmm actually I've been working on a generic world-not-so-world grf .. its still slowly coming .. but one of its main purpose is to have only a short buy list pretty much any years
23:04:25 <drac_boy> kylie..its not really subway per se :P
23:04:51 <drac_boy> kylie why isn't it at least partially underground? ;)
23:05:02 <drac_boy> at least thats one good thing about Simutrans on the other hand
23:05:07 <Supercheese> You cannot do true "subways" in OTTD
23:05:27 <Supercheese> best you can do is either use extensive tunneling, which becomes a problem if you don't have signals in tunnels patch
23:05:51 <Supercheese> or hack some "road vehicles" to be just dark shadows and pretend they're really subway trains ;)
23:06:29 <Kylie> ha ha Supercheese tharts funny
23:07:37 <Asteconn> I know that the UKRS has a 'limited list' option
23:07:48 <Asteconn> It gives you a good selection but doesn't overload you
23:07:56 <drac_boy> Asteconn btw did you know that the crocodile was not just in swizterland but also in germany as well? :)
23:07:59 <Asteconn> And removes all the restrictions with the wagons
23:08:11 <Asteconn> I did not, but that doesn't surprise me much =3
23:08:49 <drac_boy> and then there were several more country variations of the 'smaller' ones .. aka only 2 or 3 drive axles at each end and the classical long fullwidth noses
23:09:06 <drac_boy> some of the latter were diesel-hydraulic as well
23:09:43 <Asteconn> Oh! Kylie :: Another good idea - Base Costs mod
23:10:04 <Asteconn> Lets you tinker with the running costs so that you can get used to all of the new stuff without going bankrupt all the time
23:10:16 <Kylie> ah Asteconn sounds fun :P
23:10:39 * Asteconn noms chicken noodles
23:13:06 <drac_boy> I actually rather use basecost to multiply the artifically-too-low prices
23:13:16 <drac_boy> especially with airports finally costing what they really should had :P
23:17:51 <Asteconn> Well - I found it invaluable to reducing costs and running costs whilst learning wtf I was doing
23:17:59 <drac_boy> Asteconn btw here's another one for you to think about re usa during WWII some railroads found themself short of locomotives and had to take some from another railroad .. sometimes could cause quite odd sights because the railroads were still used to personalizing their own powers whether it was from same blueprint source or not...
23:18:32 <drac_boy> so you could eg have a mountain mallet ending up working for a short time on the flatlands till someone finally realized how much of a slowpoke it was and got the manager to reassign it somewhere else
23:19:57 <drac_boy> many of the earlier norfolk western mallets ended up just like that .. some sold to santa fe ... too slow to keep up with any passenger trains ... moved to up ... again problem on flatland .. but moved to a different division on up and finally managed to find some decent work .. then as soon as war was over they were cut up which served things right
23:20:11 <drac_boy> and you have to remember that norfolk western was a mountain coal railroad ;)
23:21:13 <Kylie> the one accessible from the map menu called 'map of the world'
23:21:16 <drac_boy> Asteconn and there were other weird things like one IC locomotive being rebuilt to new specs but it thankfully never got beyond the one-off stage because it was too light and slippery for any reasonable service :-s
23:21:43 <Asteconn> Right click and drag =]
23:21:58 <drac_boy> had barely a co-effection of like 2.x or something
23:22:08 <Asteconn> I have no idea what that means xD
23:22:10 <drac_boy> a well balanced locomotive was 4.0 or close to it just to give you an idea
23:22:30 <drac_boy> I'm not sure how this numbering system works but 4.0 apparently meant it was well balanced between hp, weight, and tractive
23:22:42 <drac_boy> lower meant more slippery/lighter and higher meant too much tractive for the hp it ha
23:24:11 <Asteconn> How can you have 'too much' trajctive effort? :P
23:24:16 <drac_boy> so for example (as far as I know) it could be eg 1400hp over 3 axles at 90 tons ... but if you made it <1100hp instead then the coef number got higher ... change to 2-axle and make it lighter with the same 1400hp and the coef got lower
23:24:29 <drac_boy> Asteconn too much = heavy chassis with 4+ drive axles but a very small boiler to match with it
23:24:45 <Asteconn> THat just means it's slow =3
23:24:48 <drac_boy> actually happened at times ... usually had a short life
23:24:55 <Asteconn> A lot like the 0-8-0s actually
23:25:02 <Asteconn> But they're useful /nod
23:25:56 <drac_boy> small boiler = low pressure + large pipes/pistons = too much work for little train
23:26:25 <Asteconn> I'll take your word for it
23:26:39 <Asteconn> Steam traction doesn't hold any particular fascination with me
23:26:39 <drac_boy> mind you Erie had the most worst example afaik ... a triplex locomotive (third set of drivers was under the tender btw) ... boiler of the day was like 160-210psi .. and not that big ... so yeah .. the engine was only good for 10mph pusher service for its short life
23:26:55 <drac_boy> and 'Erie' as in the name of an old railroad
23:27:18 <drac_boy> 10mph is really slow..that told you how little steam it could make for the big six pistons :-|
23:27:43 <drac_boy> if it had a much bigger boiler it could had done ok
23:28:41 <drac_boy> for comparsion sake .. N&W Y6B was a huge compounding mallet .. could haul a lot of coal up the mountain route at 25mph one day then wheel fast freight elsewhere at 50mph
23:28:48 <drac_boy> was a good design and it showed ;)
23:29:18 <drac_boy> and for the record... when the fireman sticks his head out of the cab its barely as big as one of the sand dome on top of boiler ... it was one huge locomotive ;)
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23:29:44 <Pinkbeast> Grate size could also be very wrong relative to boiler size.
23:29:57 <Kylie> (not asking a question) it's interesting how many trucks you'd actually need to transport coal and how the operating expenses would dwarf that
23:30:00 <Asteconn> I think the coolest looking north american steam locomotive was the 2-6-6-6s
23:30:14 <drac_boy> the extra pipes over the drive axles are for the complicated piston diverting valves...
23:30:19 <Asteconn> Which GRF are you using Kylie ?
23:30:44 <drac_boy> so it could start with the boiler feeding all four pistons for a short time .. then as train moved it could shut off the front and assume normal boiler>low>high compounding to keep moving
23:30:49 <drac_boy> if that made sense to you I hope
23:31:34 <Kylie> Asteconn: light rail/tramtracks, us town names, two from the cc seet, base costs, town replacement, etc
23:31:41 <Pinkbeast> Some of Webb's compound 2-2-2-2s had the... useful characteristic that the reverser on the lp cylinders only kicked in when in motion, so they would sometimes sit spinning their wheels in opposite directions.
23:31:49 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast yeah as I recall some usa steam locomotive designs started off with the boiler pipe lengths somewhat a little bit mismashed but when a second class (or complete rebuild either way) was done they corrected the ratio to get a better locomotive without doing much else
23:33:08 <Pinkbeast> Well, the right ratio of grate / boiler / heating surface / superheater / piston size did take a while to get right. :-)
23:33:30 <Asteconn> Kylie: Not too familar with those, but I do know that coal is always a good money maker
23:33:37 <Asteconn> Do you 'full load any cargo' your orders?
23:33:52 <Kylie> Asteconn: I wasn't aasking a question just now
23:34:31 <drac_boy> eg locomotive first came with 4ft2inch boiler pipes but when rebuilt it became 3ft5inch instead with extra superheating lengths added ... was still the same chassis and boiler but had better performance
23:34:39 <drac_boy> you know what I mean Pinkbeast? ^
23:34:43 <Kylie> (not asking a question) it's interesting how many trucks you'd actually need to transport coal and how the operating expenses would dwarf that <<<< I wwas just saying that, not actually asking anything Asteconn
23:34:57 * Pinkbeast knows very little about US types.
23:35:22 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast as for the webb compound .. is that the one where it should had been a freewheel 2-4-2 but was a 2-2-2-2 instead and only a few engineers really knew how to use it?
23:35:35 <drac_boy> I think I had seen a photo of it but let me check online to be sure
23:35:53 <Pinkbeast> Webb built a lot of 2-2-2-2s with various compounding arrangements, all rebuilt as 2-4-2s.
23:36:23 <Kylie> so uh Asteconn where do i adjust base costs
23:37:15 <Pinkbeast> Some were better than others. (Particularly, the ones without bogus cutoff / reversing arrangements for the lp cylinder(s))
23:37:50 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast hmm the photo I recall of was the kind that had a narrow boiler with the drive wheels being big that they were almost on the side rather than underneath the boiler
23:38:02 <drac_boy> but yeah I do see some photos of other newer Webb locomotives
23:38:34 <drac_boy> always wondered what they were thinking making 2-2-2-2's instead of 2-4-2's but who would really know? :)
23:39:26 <Asteconn> Kylie: You do so in the GRF parameters
23:39:40 <Pinkbeast> In the early days there were significant efficiency penalties for connecting rods.
23:39:44 <Asteconn> It has a list of [blank to start] types and their cost modifiers
23:40:05 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast did uk ever have them or was it only france that had these strange locomotives that were LP on one side and HP on other side for a single set of drivers?
23:40:05 <Pinkbeast> It's why the 2-2-2 / 4-2-2s made a comeback with the invention of the steam sander.
23:40:10 <drac_boy> I know france had quite a number of them .. called Corss-something .. I forgot the actual spelling
23:40:21 <Pinkbeast> I am aware of no UK locomotive in that arrangement, no. How weird.
23:40:39 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast yeah apparently they were looking to improve single locomotives without the use of mallet constructions
23:40:40 <Kylie> I fiinished 1st coal :D
23:40:51 <drac_boy> not sure how well they ran .. I never found much to read about them in english :-s
23:40:58 <Pinkbeast> Yeah, but why make them lopsided?
23:41:08 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast you tell me I have no clue :P
23:42:39 <Pinkbeast> The balancing problems must have been hideous.
23:42:58 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast not so much .... some of them ran express trains so :-s
23:43:17 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast btw how common was 3-cylinder powers anyway?
23:43:34 <Pinkbeast> Very uncommon, here, aside from Gresley's locomotives.
23:44:32 <drac_boy> usa only had a few examples from Alco alone .. a few in west coast (UP) and northeast coast (New Haven, etc) ... some people had thought they were more difficult to work on but couldn't complain about them being much stronger runner than a conventional 2-cylinder otherwise....
23:44:36 <Pinkbeast> And after Webb compounds were almost unheard of apart from articulated locos.
23:44:52 <Pinkbeast> 4 cylinder was a much more common arrangement (still not compound).
23:45:00 <drac_boy> and close to & during dieselization it turned out that 3 cylinders were better at low speed for humping works, figures
23:45:35 <Pinkbeast> Gresley's No. 10000 "Hush-hush" is about the only late compound I can think of.
23:45:39 <drac_boy> made sense when you think about it tho... with 2-cylinder you had one at 0 degree and other at 180 degree ... not very flexible torque chart there...
23:45:54 <drac_boy> but with 3 cylinders .. you had less 'dead torque' tho
23:45:56 <Pinkbeast> Errrr I think you'll find you have one at 0 and one at 90.
23:46:12 <Pinkbeast> Otherwise it is very hard to move away if you stop at dead-centre.
23:46:18 <drac_boy> heh sorry .. wrong number . still I mean the 3 cylinder had much closer strokes than 2
23:46:56 <drac_boy> interestingly enough even the BR.05 was a 3-cylinder as well....but for express
23:47:45 <Pinkbeast> Well, most of Gresley's 3-cylinders were built for express use, and Thompson mostly did't rebuild those.
23:48:18 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast btw I can't recall where I had heard of this but someone had a very weird idea once... design a locomotive that had two small outside and one large inside piston ... apparently they were thinking 2LP>1HP compounding setup .. don't know how well that fared at all tbh
23:48:40 <drac_boy> can imagine the valves must had been complicated
23:48:55 <drac_boy> I think 3-cylinder is and always should be simple
23:48:58 <Pinkbeast> I'll bet Gresley's valve gear can drive that with the right length levers.
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23:49:51 <Pinkbeast> But after you realise you don't actually want to let people control the LP cutoff separately, it's easier.
23:50:23 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast either way here's something a bit unusual but not too unique for you to think about...
23:51:36 <drac_boy> they were all oil fired so it was easy enough said done :->
23:52:23 <Pinkbeast> Looks familiar. We had very few (I've never understood why) apart from tender locomotives being cab-forward half the time.
23:52:55 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast mm I don't either but for SP it makes perfect sense....smoke ahead of cab + long tunnel = choking problem
23:53:06 <drac_boy> so..flip the locomotive itself around :)
23:53:06 <Pinkbeast> Excuse me, I mean, tank locomotives. And after about 2 seconds I do.
23:53:28 <Pinkbeast> If it's a coal-fired tender locomotive, where's the coal? :-)
23:54:20 <drac_boy> could be a bit weird in certain photos...you would be thinking its one single locomotive till you look closely and notice theres only one single set of pipes between the cab and tender ... duh .. you're actually looking at two cabforwards :P
23:54:37 <drac_boy> (aka the lack of water and oil pipes gives it away)
23:54:39 <Pinkbeast> Gresley (for it is he) designed a very early electric for the long-tunnel problem which is in the NRM.
23:55:57 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast mainline electrification pretty much started with B&O in usa as far as I even know... it was one tunnel underneath the city ... so they had 3rd rail locomotives that hauled trains through the tunnel ...replaced by newer steeplecabs .. before being succed by the diesels
23:56:38 <drac_boy> but for heavy electrifications you have to give that to both PRR and New Haven .. they pretty much covered almost all of northeast usa with 11000VAC :)
23:56:43 <Pinkbeast> The Tube here, obviously.
23:57:09 <drac_boy> and just so you know.. the GG1 was more or less designed after the chassis of a NH electric
23:57:48 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast say .. what do you think of the few electric-diesel locomotives you had in uk so far?
23:58:06 <Pinkbeast> As in, to run on electrified and non-electrified lines?
23:58:37 <Pinkbeast> No thanks. We should just electrify everywhere like any sane country.
23:58:49 <drac_boy> usa only had one single well known example .. EMD FL9 .. basically take your F7 .. give it a bit newer diesel engine .. install third rail pickup shoes and the electronics needed for that .. and of course it had a B-1A1 arrangement instead due to the extra weight of the rear steam boiler heating
23:59:03 <Pinkbeast> There's one in UKRS somewhere.
23:59:12 <drac_boy> a few still ran under amtrak for a while before finally being retired
23:59:48 <drac_boy> the FL9 lasted more than 30 years due to being an unique specific-needs design ... when any other carbody diesels had long been scrapped
continue to next day ⏵
