IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-29
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00:00:30 <Pinkbeast> Reminds me, Steam on the Metropolitan next year. And we might see Sarah Siddons, to boot.
00:00:41 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast well electric-diesel does make sense if its only a small fleet for routes that would have problem with one or other straight power
00:00:57 <Pinkbeast> Not if you electrify all your routes like any sensible etc etc
00:01:11 <Pinkbeast> And rescue locomotives can be straight diesel.
00:01:27 <drac_boy> eg electrics not having enough money-worthy route to build onto .. and diesel being banned due to emission problem .... combine both and that solves your problem
00:02:29 <drac_boy> the FL9 actually had some sections on its original route where it had to actually shut down the diesel engine cold due to tunnel issues
00:03:54 <Pinkbeast> I think electrification would always pay off in the long run, so I don't really believe in money-worthy.
00:04:02 <drac_boy> and don't know if this surprises you but when amtrak took over the PRR and NH electrics .. it had two large sections that had no electrifications which explained their ongoing use of the FL9 aside to at-station locomotive swaps till they finally could get the fund to patch that
00:04:19 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast why would ypu put in a lot of money for basically what is just a few trains a week?
00:04:42 <Pinkbeast> I'd rather (on the routes we have a problem here) swap locomotives, although the rise of the MU has made that harder.
00:04:52 <Pinkbeast> It's still capital vs. marginal costs.
00:05:08 <drac_boy> well Pinkbeast if the electrification is only short distance .. just use low-voltage DC
00:05:50 <drac_boy> there were actually some dmus that had "straight" third-rail shoes ... apparently the traction voltage was the same as the 3rd rail voltage .. so they didn't even need much of any transformer at all ... there would had been no space for one under the chassis with the diesel engine + tank taking up the space
00:06:05 <drac_boy> I can't remember where I had seen that but they existed
00:06:38 <Pinkbeast> That is quite clever.
00:07:11 <drac_boy> although its moot now because if I recall Today's Railway Europe issues right .. Alstorm already is selling a MU train that has diesel+ac1+ac2 or diesel+ac1+dc
00:07:33 <drac_boy> did not have enough space to fit a 3-way transformer with the diesel engine tho .. still .. goes to show you
00:08:05 <drac_boy> they did sell a non-diesel version for tri-voltage anyway
00:08:29 <Pinkbeast> The good thing about standards is there are so many to choose from. :-)
00:08:43 <Pinkbeast> At least we solved the gauge question here early. Wrongly, but we solved it.
00:08:51 <drac_boy> well to be honest I don't understand the different voltages everyone use but oh well
00:09:21 <drac_boy> you mean as in it being smaller loading gauge than everyone else? :P
00:09:46 <drac_boy> heh actually sometimes I never could understand uk ... certain locomotives being banned only because they had an extra inch of overhang on curves etc
00:10:37 <drac_boy> at least HS1 pretty much could handle anything .. i still think about that test run where a TGV actually showed up in uk :)
00:11:14 <drac_boy> about DB's wish to run ICE4M or something (don't recall exact details) into uk ... I'm still waiting for any more news on that
00:11:17 <Pinkbeast> No, track gauge. The distance between the wheels.
00:11:37 <Pinkbeast> As I understood it we expect DB to turn up in London in a year or two (thankfully).
00:12:03 <drac_boy> I never really understood the eurostar trains ... at least thankfully some of the chunnel regulations were or are going to be relaxed
00:12:20 <drac_boy> some people have wisely suggested that these "jumbo" trains are just too big for certain markets
00:12:47 <Pinkbeast> Brunel was right about the broad gauge, but sadly his locomotive policy was otherwise mad.
00:14:16 <drac_boy> btw that reminds me...its been quite a while since I saw the news on this but apparently JNR was working on shinkasen "covered rail carrier" wagons (for lack of words to explain it now) that would allow the usual NG consists to travel over the bullet lines if distance or so were enough to warrent the delay at both ends
00:14:37 <drac_boy> I think it probably had to do with them wanting to enlarge one of that northern tunnel for bullet service
00:14:59 <Pinkbeast> Freight can't stay at 90mph forever. :-)
00:15:10 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually its not really that...
00:15:43 <drac_boy> you can't mix 80km/h and 200km/h trains on a single dual-gauge track through a long tunnel .. it would cause too much scheduling problem with so few trains per hour
00:15:55 <Pinkbeast> I think you misunderstand me.
00:16:08 <drac_boy> so...I don't know exactly what they're doing yet but apparently one plan could be to put the NG trains aboard the bullets :->
00:16:22 <Pinkbeast> I don't mean "freight cannot sustain such speeds". I mean "freight, I expect, will get faster in the future from the 90mph or so it is now (here)"
00:16:46 <drac_boy> if thats what you think ... I'm the opposite tho ... so might be better to not talk about it :P
00:17:10 <Pinkbeast> I'm interested to know why you think that?
00:20:26 <drac_boy> light inexpensive trains whether its actually metre gauge or not. there isn't really much need for more in an economy sense
00:20:42 <drac_boy> it might be too long story and you wouldn't like it anyway from what you've mentioned so...don't ask? :P
00:21:52 <Pinkbeast> I don't know what I wouldn't like, beyond that I don't like road haulage and would like rid of it; but pathing gets easier if everything's the same speed, and pax is way over 90mph even here. :-)
00:23:21 <drac_boy> well I would rather let freight take their spider-like network all over the place ... and put passengers on their own limited hubs-biased high grade high speed line
00:23:32 <drac_boy> I guess I sound too much like japan did in the 1960s I know :-
00:24:21 <Pinkbeast> But what about medium-speed pax to get them everywhere else?
00:25:05 <drac_boy> and as for road haulages .. I'll copy the switzerland and usa concepts with some tweaks ... seperateable trailer loads that can interchange between rail for fixed point-to-point and road day tractors for directly-to-door delivery
00:25:31 <drac_boy> only a few trucks a day in the town and almost nothing on highway at all
00:25:33 <Pinkbeast> Certainly in Switzerland we still saw random mixed goods going by in the evenings - much more going by rail there.
00:26:30 <drac_boy> and as for medium-speed ... well if you're talking about a 90kmh distance ... that might still be covered by existing feeder tram unless you're out in the country
00:26:42 <Pinkbeast> And in big towns, cargo trams, please. Minimise road haulage to the absolute maximum degree.
00:26:53 <drac_boy> and I don't really like city cargo trams tbh
00:26:58 <drac_boy> too much tracks for too few customers
00:27:07 <drac_boy> plus you run into the problem of not being able to use docks
00:27:17 <Pinkbeast> Er... I can think of another thing we could do with the tracks - pax trams!
00:27:43 <drac_boy> cargo trams only really work for industrial parks or out in the open country anyway
00:27:58 <Pinkbeast> Only because we allow lorry haulage to externalise costs.
00:28:26 <Pinkbeast> If lorries paid the real cost of the pollution, road damage, and death they cause, cargo trams would be more attractive.
00:28:49 <Kylie> where is the setting to change whether trains reverse at the end of the line or at a station
00:29:02 <drac_boy> try find a single tram design that can serve ramps .. and be able to eg remove a load from dock A then put a different load at dock B .. that means you need at least 3 or 4 tracks .. instead of only just a few feet of road surface and one single tractor
00:29:09 <Pinkbeast> Difficulty, I think, in the pre-game settings. But don't have it open.
00:29:47 <Kylie> Pinkbeast: that was it, thx
00:29:49 <Pinkbeast> drac: but no-one is suggesting, say, cargo movements internal to a factory would be done by tram.
00:30:41 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast you mean like eg from building 9 to building 17 on the same large property?
00:31:26 <Pinkbeast> I'm not totally convinced the cost of tram tracks around those buildings is so much compared to the cost of the buildings.
00:32:00 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast well it is tbh
00:32:39 <Pinkbeast> Not convinced. Leipzig's full of reversing loops kept around just in case, for example. They're not eating money.
00:33:33 <drac_boy> even some of these rails-designed industrial parks in usa before ... many closed because of all the extra cost in maintenaning rails when almost everything was already paved for the forklifts and shunter tractors to run with less scheduling+labour restrictions anyway
00:33:41 <Pinkbeast> And until road haulage pays for the costs it externalises, I don't see how we can work out what's cheaper.
00:34:34 <drac_boy> especially when an aged emission-smelly 900hp alco locomotive was sitting next to a much smaller modern cheap 200hp tractor -_-
00:35:10 <drac_boy> I only know of one single industrial railroad that wanted to buy into the new Green Goat locomotives so far yet
00:35:18 <Pinkbeast> But that ain't comparing like with like (in particular, a rail vehicle obviously doesn't need 4.5x the power to do the same job; it needs less).
00:35:29 <drac_boy> was done with some federal fund grant ... that suggests they costed a lot
00:35:45 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually .. 200hp is very little
00:35:58 <drac_boy> went to show why when the pavement already existed anyway many rails were pulled up
00:36:10 <Pinkbeast> OK... so what? If a 200hp tractor can do a job a <200hp rail vehicle can do the same job.
00:36:22 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast problem is no 200hp rail even exists at all
00:36:48 <drac_boy> even if you wanted to design a new one almost noone would even buy because of all the extra costs compared to the non-rail that already existed
00:37:02 <Pinkbeast> Stick the same engine on a chassis with railway wheels, job's done. Except really it would be electric.
00:37:04 <drac_boy> thats why the Yard Goat is so far only going to larger railroads for urban yards
00:37:12 <drac_boy> it doesn't work that way
00:37:37 <drac_boy> 200hp minus the emission regulations minus diesel-electric loss ... minus belt takeoff .. etc .. it comes to being rather crappy
00:38:09 <drac_boy> its not a surprise that the few rail/road hybrid tractors have a large engine but very low top speed compared to a normal road-only tractor
00:38:26 <Pinkbeast> No, look, rail is more efficient than road. That is the entire reason rail exists. It's a very fundamental fact that we've known since wagonways.
00:39:02 <Pinkbeast> If you deny that you have to explain why railways ever happened.
00:39:54 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast if that was the case then why is noone buying the rated-in-400hp-blocks modern diesel shunters for other tasks than yard and harbour works?
00:40:12 <drac_boy> clearly says something about the lack of road-shared industrial markets
00:40:34 <Pinkbeast> Uh, uh, one thing at a time. First you have to explain why railways were ever invented if they are not more power-efficient ways of moving cargo.
00:40:57 <Pinkbeast> Because apparently all the owners of the horse-drawn railways never noticed they were actually using more horses after laying all the rails?
00:43:24 <Pinkbeast> (Obviously you don't suppose that, but let's try and get down to why you suppose 200hp on rail can't move the same load as 200hp on road, one step at a time).
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00:51:55 <drac_boy> 200hp minus small belt&clutch loss ... simple chassis (only a little more complicated if public roads gets involved).. small monthly insurance rate .. can hire almost any drivers for it. and now for rails .. 400hp minus 30+hp loss max .. hopefully FRA doesn't get too involved with its design (mainly adding more weight) .. having to retain engineers with the 8hr + min sleep laws .. and don't ask what rail insurance is
00:52:58 <drac_boy> is it no wonder almost noone can design a modern dmu for usa partially thanks to FRA (look at how much heavier the electrics got even although they technically did not even share track with freights)
00:53:23 <Pinkbeast> But once again you are not comparing like with like.
00:53:26 <drac_boy> a hat off to these rebuilt budd rdc's still running around (guess fra had their limit)
00:53:44 <Pinkbeast> In particular, you are proposing a situation where the more dangerous vehicles have a laxer regulatory regime,.
00:53:58 <Pinkbeast> No wonder rail looks bad under those circumstances.
00:54:15 <drac_boy> one of the few things roads have to deal with is the thing called a logbook
00:54:19 <Pinkbeast> "can hire almost any drivers" vs. "having to retain engineers" certainly sounds laxer to me.
00:54:53 <Pinkbeast> And the idea that one has to have double the power on rail is still absurd.
00:54:58 <drac_boy> well if you took one city .. you'll find several thousand truck drivers .. but excluding working yards theres sometimes not much engineers
00:55:04 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast blame fra for some of that then
00:55:26 <Pinkbeast> The engine turns an axle. That's the same problem either way.
00:55:30 <Pinkbeast> And one needs less power on rail to move the same cargo. That's still a basic fact you're completely ignoring.
00:55:45 <drac_boy> then again .. a ge 44-tonner was always much heavier than a heavy haul road tractor ... even although its still a small loco
00:56:02 <Pinkbeast> Those whatever-they-are come in 400hp increments because rail can move much larger loads with one driver.
00:56:15 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast that doesn't help when you only have one or two container-sized loads to move at a time
00:56:44 <Pinkbeast> No, but it doesn't establish 400hp as some sort of magical minimum size for an engine that moves a rail vehicle.
00:57:11 <drac_boy> that was the main reason for the selling of gensets to yards ... so they could deal with different cuts
00:57:57 <Pinkbeast> And it's not real either.
00:58:00 <drac_boy> subtract the drive loss .. and add the much heavier chassis
00:58:08 <drac_boy> and there you go..thats why its hard to get smaller
00:58:19 <Pinkbeast> What drive losses? If it can turn an axle on road it can turn one on rails.
00:58:35 <Pinkbeast> Incidentally Leipzig's older pax trams are 230hp. Hard to go lower than 400?
00:59:09 <drac_boy> thats only because trams at least (to fra) don't even connect with standard trains so they can get away with the much more fragile chassis
00:59:32 <Pinkbeast> So once again you're proposing a laxer regulatory regime for more dangerous vehicles.
00:59:45 <Pinkbeast> That has little to do with what is fundamentally more efficient.
01:01:38 <Pinkbeast> Obviously if you have absurdly different construction requirements for rail, it looks worse. This is not news. But we started discussing how things would work in an ideal world; and in an ideal world, vehicles that can only strike another head-on when they derail, not whenever the driver dozes off, would be less crash-resistant.
01:03:06 <Pinkbeast> And furthermore a vehicle that doesn't have to carry its own power source will come out lighter. Why else trolley-busses?
01:04:08 <drac_boy> the funny thing is there was an article in this month's train magazine about japan rail operations and why we would never ever see it in usa. one of the few things they mentioned was the stricter labours including that point-and-call aspect
01:04:34 <drac_boy> I guess their strict timetabling is also a bit foreign to north america too
01:05:03 <drac_boy> although IC did have something partially similar for a while where trains were timetabled between initial and final yards
01:06:09 <drac_boy> btw Pinkbeast I'm not going to argue with you, trolleybuses are rather good idea that its kinda sad that many were killed off by this GE-funded 'corruption' in usa :/ at least several major cities still have them tho
01:06:53 <Pinkbeast> Well, you _are_ arguing with me; particularly there's a fundamental point that if x HP can move load y tons on road, it can move >y tons on rail. This is why rail works at all.
01:07:09 <drac_boy> sometimes it was just for environment reason other times it had to do with the lack of diesel performance at the times (I recall at least one example where one city was all diesel except for one single college serving route which was right on a big hill...apparently diesels had problem there)
01:07:44 <drac_boy> I'm not too sold on the weird underground "tuberoad" system tho. forgot what its named now
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06:22:37 <Supercheese> So, say I make a Newgrf using some sprites from the video game Caesar 3. Is there any license/any way I can share the grf, or is it stuck just for personal use?
06:26:57 <planetmaker> you'll have to ask the copyright holder of caesar 3. If you don't get their permission (or find a license in that game which allows usage of the graphics under *whatever* conditions): then it's personal use only
06:27:31 <Supercheese> the company is since defunct
06:28:01 <Supercheese> copyright passed to lord knows who
06:28:31 <Supercheese> probably Activision, they're the mega-company
06:29:29 <planetmaker> some once tried with the ttd graphics...
06:30:16 <Elukka> they would never reply because in all likelihood they couldn't care less
06:31:37 <Elukka> it's not totally unheard of for game companies to let people use their assets but they probably barely even remember that casear 3 exists :P
06:33:16 <planetmaker> Elukka: those people *did* get a reply
06:34:04 <Elukka> well, i was talking about activision and caesar...
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06:34:19 <Supercheese> Out of curiosity, if I hadn't asked and just made the grf, would anyone have noticed? :P
06:35:42 <planetmaker> Supercheese: likely yes. E.g. people also noticed that the luukland guys ripped of Heroes of Might and Magic and used their graphics in one or more newgrfs
06:35:52 <Supercheese> Yeah, I did notice that
06:36:06 <planetmaker> whether people care enough to make an issue of it... not sure :P
06:36:51 <Supercheese> Ugh, Activision has a flash-based website
06:36:55 <Supercheese> I hate flash pages
06:37:22 <planetmaker> flash... ancient technology :D
06:37:49 <Supercheese> Whoever thought that making the whole website a giant .swf should be exiled to Siberia or something
06:37:59 <Supercheese> thought was a good thing*
06:38:05 <Supercheese> clause missing there
06:39:31 <Supercheese> Advertising? On Google default page?!
06:40:05 <Supercheese> First time I've seen it
06:40:20 <planetmaker> "don't be evil" was yesterday ;-)
06:41:12 <Elukka> ads aren't evil, being a massive information spider that wants to know everything about you and where you move and what you do is...
06:41:21 <Supercheese> I have a very strict Adblock policy, yet the ads are there anyhow
06:41:51 <Supercheese> probably due to some wizardry with referrers, IP locations, user agents, OS, font families, etc
06:42:02 <Elukka> google test ads or actual banners?
06:42:04 <Supercheese> so damn many ways to identify ya on the inerweb
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06:44:27 <Supercheese> (hope that link works, dunno which quick imageuploader is best)
06:47:56 <Supercheese> Oh wow, there's actually copyright information available from a public web catalog
06:53:36 <Supercheese> Is claiming fair use any good, or just throws more mud in the water?
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07:21:54 <planetmaker> well, you then know whom to ask :-)
07:22:30 <Supercheese> Ohp, link timed out; kinda a moot point though because as I said the company is now defunct
07:22:55 <Supercheese> Anyway, fair use? Yes/no/we don't know but we'd rather you not?
07:25:38 <Supercheese> Heh, I'm on that page too
07:26:15 <Supercheese> I'm considering grabbing a wikipedia request for permission boilerplate form and sending it off
07:28:05 <Supercheese> the person who reads it will probably have never heard of Caesar 3, though :P
07:36:30 <planetmaker> but he might know whom to ask. that's the important thing
07:55:10 <Supercheese> Just started earlier this year, too
07:55:44 <Elukka> oh no! looks like they're using graphics without permission!
07:56:22 <Supercheese> I thought it was like OTTD, it requires you to have the original C3 data files
07:56:28 <Supercheese> and it doesn't provide those
07:56:37 <Supercheese> but I don't know for sure
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07:59:24 <Supercheese> "The install procedure generates the pics*.zip archives and other resources from the original caesar3 CD."
07:59:29 <Supercheese> Yeah you need the game data
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08:08:10 <SpComb> LLVM-compiled OpenTTD C++ in Javascript actually runs? Oo
08:09:25 <SpComb> no sound, but midi works, and it's got a file system and everything
08:10:12 <planetmaker> dihedral: you surely know... the letter to marjak... somewhere readable and their reply?
08:10:44 <SpComb> although I can't imagine it working without porting the GPL sources... and the openttd.js is a compiled binary
08:11:13 <planetmaker> play-ttd.com anyone?
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08:18:10 <SpComb> can't find blitter.js or pre.js, but it's got the customized openttd blitter and music driver code
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08:26:08 <SpComb> wouldn't have believed that a JS compile could work that well
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08:30:28 <SpComb> oh... it's that old? :P
08:31:22 <SpComb> irclogs.qmsk.net tells me that 2012-07-03
08:35:12 <planetmaker> hm, what's this increased netsplit frequency as of recently?
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12:03:18 <NGC3982> Or a possible glitch in the Matrix.
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12:59:25 <Asteconn> With the addedbonus of not needing signals
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13:00:30 <Fremen> and you can make them to turnarounds with 1 extra square unlike busses
13:00:46 <Fremen> who need a trip around the block sometimes :)
13:04:27 <Fremen> I'm just looking for better tram rails graphics
13:04:39 <Fremen> it's ugly, too many poles
13:12:44 <Elukka> i haven't yet found a a tram set that'd fit well with Long Vehicles... and i haven't found any road vehicle set i'd like better than it
13:13:14 <Elukka> fit as in both visually and balance-wise
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15:53:57 <frosch123> i don't highlight on quek
15:54:19 <Alberth> no, it's just different from quak
16:21:55 <Zuu> Lovely, there is not a single open feature request for NoGo/GS on FlySpray.
16:22:11 <planetmaker> you want some? :D
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16:23:31 <Zuu> planetmaker: Actually yes. It would be nice to know what potential GS writers think is missing.
16:24:00 <Rubidium> obviously city builder implementations to rip off
16:25:00 <Zuu> Given that I've written 5 out of 7 GS on FS, the interest to write GS (apart from me) doesn't seem so high?
16:25:31 <planetmaker> Zuu: I simply think - as with the admin port - even people who write GS are not necessarily willing to share their results
16:25:58 <planetmaker> Both, admin port and GS are server-side "features" and can be used to make the own server moar awesoooohm
16:25:59 <Zuu> I never played the city builder so I don't know what it includes that cannot be implemented with current GS.
16:26:35 <planetmaker> I don't know either what "they" did
16:27:38 <planetmaker> Zuu: what I'd consider nice - but would require both, admin and GS, is indeed something like an exemplary citybuilder with a step-wise appraoch on the GS side:
16:29:03 <planetmaker> primary goal: grow city to > 50k with the limitations like "no growth beyond 1k, if no coal; no growth beyond 2.5k if no food; no growth beyond 8k if no sawmill; no growth beyond 12k, if no refinery, no growth beyond 15k, if not 5k goods
16:29:26 <planetmaker> and the results being stored in a server-side DB, so that highscores can be gathered
16:29:40 <planetmaker> btw, I'm missing a NoCarGoal repo :D
16:30:01 <Zuu> The GS part does look like it can be implemented with the 1.3 API
16:30:22 <Zuu> Yes, NoCarGoal repo needs to be created. :-)
16:33:13 <Terkhen> I agree with planetmaker; we have heard of people who are keeping their work to themselves so I can only assume that many more are keeping it and not coming to the chat to talk about it
16:33:21 <Terkhen> the result is; no feedback and no visible results for these features
16:33:25 <Terkhen> which is kind of dissapointing
16:33:46 <Zuu> Although you can only get the GUI "for free" if your growth cargos are specified as cargo classes rather than specific cargos.
16:34:10 <planetmaker> can't I specify specific cargos?
16:34:37 <Zuu> You can monitor specific cargos and use the raw town growth API.
16:34:37 <planetmaker> or what you mean by "for free"
16:36:48 <Zuu> But if you use a cargo with a town effect you can use GSTown::SetCargoGoal. Then OpenTTD will include information about the goal in the town window without any additional work for the GS author.
16:38:42 <Zuu> Neighbours are important use the SetCargoGoal approach.
16:39:09 <planetmaker> Can a GS check for the presence of a specific label?
16:39:55 <Zuu> As in if there is a cargo with "OIL_" label?
16:40:50 <Zuu> You could loop through GSCargoList and call GSCargo::GetCargoLabel() for each cargo and compare against the value you want to check for.
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16:45:20 <Zuu> planetmaker: Oh I see you have now commented the CB thread and asked for clarification on what parts they miss in GS.
16:46:21 <planetmaker> yes... I was evil
16:49:04 <planetmaker> maybe I just shouldn't post. As suggested by those whiners ;-)
16:49:38 <Zuu> I don't think that post about CB is that evil.
16:50:03 <Terkhen> it isn't, I was trolling :P
16:50:13 <planetmaker> it's not friendly either ;-)
16:50:16 <Terkhen> I have seen other posts by Honza saying the same thing
16:50:24 <planetmaker> yeah ^^ that's why
16:50:50 <Terkhen> and IIRC the same question was asked
16:50:55 <Terkhen> I don't know if it was answered, though
16:51:25 <planetmaker> I don't either really. Didn't search
16:51:29 <Zuu> At least the answer was not added to FS in the script category.
16:52:58 <Terkhen> let's hope for a constructive debate, I could use one after that change newgrfs thread :)
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17:24:38 <Zuu> If GS get to control the company performance, it may be an idea that it can register sub performance items that show up in the details window.
17:25:22 <Zuu> Maybe even it should be made so that OpenTTD compute the total based on the sub items rather than exposing the control over the total to GS.
17:26:49 <Yexo> so GS would provide a list of items where you can score points (incl. max number of points) and the number of points for each company, openttd computes total and makes a nice display?
17:27:49 <Zuu> If a GS provide a such list, that would replace the default performance table and the GS would take over control over the company league table.
17:28:55 <Yexo> sounds like a good alternative to the current goal list
17:29:07 <Zuu> My guess is that the items need to be saved into the save game format.
17:29:53 <NGC3982> Did something happend to my client?
17:30:40 <Zuu> Although the current goal list doesn't provide a way to show the status of other companies in a MP game or hooking into the performance graph.
17:32:10 <Zuu> I don't really think the goal list and the league table exactly duplicate each other, but they will tangent each other if GS get to control the league table.
17:32:40 <Zuu> The legue table is not really good for displaying lengthy goal texts.
17:33:15 <Zuu> s/legue table/detailed performance rating/
17:33:53 <Alberth> allow for scores in the goal window?
17:34:26 <Alberth> ie currently it is 'not reached', allow an percentage instead
17:35:24 <Alberth> perhaps replacing the detailed performance rating window???
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17:36:30 <Zuu> An alternative approach is of course to try to extend the goal window and leave the performance windows as is.
17:37:05 <Alberth> I like the idea of treating the current contents as a sort of default goal
17:37:06 <Zuu> A nice thing with the performance window is that it got a clear button in the main toolbar while goals are well hidden.
17:37:50 <Alberth> (current contents of the performance window)
17:43:06 <Zuu> Taking NoCarGoal as an example, I think I would set the detail performance items there to cargo delivery of the three cargos.
17:43:18 <Zuu> Eg 300 for each cargo and 100 for having a HQ or something else silly :-)
17:45:22 <Zuu> Then the goal window would be the point where each player find information about the global goals and company specific goals. The (detailed) performance window would be the place to check out the progress for all companies.
17:45:58 <Zuu> Instead of needing to make the GS spam progress news.
17:46:51 *** Guest4888 is now known as Fawksie
17:46:55 <Zuu> Not sure if GSs should be allowed to configure different progress items for different companies.
17:47:38 <Zuu> Maybe it is not really correct to use the detailed performance window for this. Maybe it is better to extend the goal window instead to provide this information.
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18:00:30 <Yexo> maybe the goal window should get buttons to select all companies so you can view other companies' goals
18:01:21 <Alberth> hidden goals can be fun ;)
18:03:23 <Zuu> I'm thinking that we maybe should add so that when a goal is completed you can mark it completed rather than erasing it.
18:04:04 <Zuu> Then we can register a goal_id as a requirement for a town to grow (at all or past XYZ inhabitants)
18:05:12 <Alberth> sort of with the active subsidies. Makes sense
18:05:27 <Zuu> The Town GUI can then display blocking goals and town growth can be held back without requiring the GS to make raw changes of town growth which is only half-way supported.
18:06:30 <andythenorth> I didn't play much with it, but town growth hasn't really convinced me for GS :)
18:06:36 * Zuu thinks about creating a wiki article to add ideas too.
18:06:50 <andythenorth> Zuu: pub / sub (event subscriber) system?
18:06:56 <andythenorth> GS publishes goal status :P
18:07:09 <andythenorth> GS can register subscribers on towns
18:07:12 <andythenorth> maybe industries :P
18:07:27 <andythenorth> probably overkill
18:07:34 * andythenorth suggests pub-sub for everything recently
18:07:52 * Zuu is lost with the pub-sub idea
18:10:38 <Alberth> Zuu: pub-sub means that events are sent to subcribed parties only. If you want to know about something, you have to subscribe
18:12:15 * andythenorth has some random thoughts again, I'll dump here, you can ignore :P
18:12:31 <andythenorth> - we know GS is good for goal-driven stuff like cargo goal
18:12:41 <andythenorth> - we know GS is bad for detailed control of town / newgrf etc
18:13:05 <andythenorth> we've tested the first now, and the second is true by design (currently anyway, and nobody dares change it)
18:13:13 <andythenorth> I think some middle layer is missing - economy
18:13:30 <andythenorth> town control, industry control, cargo availability, cargo payment rates, and possibly base costs
18:13:40 <andythenorth> no idea how to do it
18:13:56 <Alberth> I'd count it in with GS
18:14:05 <andythenorth> but there's probably no way around getting GS authors and newgrf authors to agree on common interface
18:14:14 <andythenorth> we had to do it with cargos, and it has actually worked
18:14:25 <andythenorth> despite pain, cargo classes and labels work brilliantly
18:14:46 <andythenorth> it's a bit like IEEE standards or W3C, it's incredibly painful, but ultimately the standards are agreed and work
18:14:56 <Alberth> I am not sure whether GS and newgrf should interface directly
18:15:30 <Alberth> although it may be simpler when they do
18:15:31 <andythenorth> either they do it by values in registers
18:15:34 <andythenorth> or by cbs via openttd which GS can call and newgrf can handle
18:15:52 <andythenorth> or by some published list of GS goal classes, current status etc
18:17:04 <andythenorth> I don't have an answer, obviously :P
18:17:49 <Alberth> I sort of see GS as a layer above openttd
18:18:03 <Alberth> newgrf has knobs controlled by openttd
18:18:12 <Alberth> openttd has knobs controlled by GS
18:18:42 <Alberth> except the number of openttd knobs is about 0 :)
18:19:07 <andythenorth> stack diagram :P
18:19:22 <Alberth> that way, GS can continue to think at high level, and let openttd do the work
18:21:22 <Alberth> for industry I can imagine a GS saying 'more production of X' or 'less industries'
18:21:38 <Alberth> although it may collide with the newgrf ideas :(
18:22:47 <Alberth> but eg for default industries it would work, I think
18:24:39 <andythenorth> cb29 / 35 should be able to either hint to newgrf (meh), or just be over-ridden by GS
18:24:49 <andythenorth> (production change)
18:25:04 <andythenorth> newgrfs should be able to provide ideas for industries GS doesn't care about
18:25:15 <andythenorth> but GS should be able to over-ride where necessary
18:25:31 * andythenorth considers FIRS 2 :P
18:26:00 * andythenorth tries to figure wtf industries would need for a common interface
18:26:37 <andythenorth> industry open / close is a NoConomy thing and should be fixed even without GS
18:26:38 <Zuu> andythenorth: Agreed regarding production change.
18:26:42 <andythenorth> then expose it to GS for control
18:27:01 <andythenorth> default game should be better than current for industries
18:27:08 <andythenorth> without any need to load a GS
18:27:16 <andythenorth> GS will be better if simple like NoCarGoal
18:27:24 <andythenorth> big complicated things are a headache
18:27:53 <andythenorth> I can forsee an interface designed for someone to code a GS featuring 'entire history of world for train fans'
18:28:01 <andythenorth> which will just be a source of breakage and whining for years
18:28:12 <andythenorth> just say no to that :P
18:29:02 <andythenorth> semantics, but are they Game Scripts or Goal Scripts?
18:30:41 <Zuu> A GS can do other things than providing just goals.
18:30:52 <andythenorth> do we care? is it interesting?
18:31:05 <andythenorth> e.g. is the GS for the tutorial just a nice hack?
18:31:09 <Zuu> For example implementing the beginner tutorial
18:31:10 <andythenorth> or is that what GS is intended for?
18:31:17 <Alberth> but western people desperately need goals to achieve ;)
18:31:21 <Zuu> I think TB had it in mind.
18:31:35 <andythenorth> I am very goal driven
18:31:38 <andythenorth> I tried not being :P
18:32:33 <Rubidium> but isn't the goal to make objectives?
18:32:58 <Rubidium> and working on that goal should be fun, and what's more fun than a game?
18:33:05 <andythenorth> making a game :)
18:33:27 <andythenorth> ok so semantics are boring as usual :P
18:35:09 * andythenorth looks for a thread to troll instead
18:35:27 <Rubidium> maybe you can troll the sysadmin at work
18:35:32 <Rubidium> or maybe I should tomorrow
18:36:18 <andythenorth> don't poke the bofh
18:36:19 <Rubidium> ... by making a ticket that Outlook's agenda doesn't work
18:36:28 <andythenorth> wtf is this pipes thread?
18:36:57 <Rubidium> andythenorth: at the moment I can be a real bastard from hell for the sysadmin
18:37:23 <andythenorth> what if he makes you do the sysadmin instead? :P
18:38:17 <Rubidium> I'd reckon I'm way too expensive for that position
18:39:38 <andythenorth> went in the suggestions forum
18:39:39 <SpComb> sysadmins are highly trained professionals that have many years of experience!
18:39:59 <Rubidium> ... in avoiding contact with anyone via any means
18:40:47 <Rubidium> which includes the sales rep of vmware for buying the ESXI license, or the sales rep of whatever stuff you need to make backups
18:41:28 <andythenorth> sysadmins buy stuff? :o
18:41:51 <SpComb> sysadmins do a lot of integration and maintenance work on complex systems which require a wide area of understanding and lots of forethought!
18:42:20 <SpComb> developers just play in their own sandbox and don't have to care about anything outside of their own project :<
18:42:36 <Rubidium> ... so they leave it to the programmer to choose the hardware and software for the database server
18:44:08 <SpComb> yes, listen to that devops guy
18:44:49 * andythenorth refuses to hire a sysadmin mostly
18:45:31 <andythenorth> can't find anything to validly troll
18:45:38 <Rubidium> SpComb: anyway, by what you have said I must classify the person the is supposed to be the sysadmin at my work to be not a sysadmin
18:45:47 <andythenorth> lots of stupidity, but nothing more stupid than me on an average day :(
18:46:30 <andythenorth> one day it would be fun to list all the made up reasons towns grow
18:46:31 <Rubidium> as integration and maintenance are not in his vocabulary
18:49:52 <Rubidium> on the other hand, he must be doing lots of forethought. Like a week ago he asked me whether I had time for some meeting with him (we're moving building and he doesn't know anything about basically anything concerning databases), and he wanted it that week. So I said, send me a meeting request for a moment you have time. I'm still waiting for that
18:50:03 <Rubidium> so he is still pondering it
18:50:36 <Rubidium> he is probably also pondering for two months whether something is finished or not (two months ago it was almost finished), and it's merely an installation of Windows
18:53:44 <Alberth> busy all day with emergencies?
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18:57:14 <andythenorth> is why I can't work for other people
18:57:18 <andythenorth> and had to become the man
18:57:27 <andythenorth> and have people working for the man
18:57:36 * andythenorth is a capitalist exploiter
18:58:55 <Rubidium> Alberth: or his concept of emergency is skewed
19:00:22 <Rubidium> but I reckon a disk screaming through it's SMART that it is broken (with random database corruptions) is something that has quite some urgency
19:02:02 <Rubidium> similarly I'd reckon fixing/making a regular backup of the database server that contains a significant amount of the core business data is somewhat urgent as well
19:02:59 <Rubidium> but then I might be a really bad sysadmin
19:03:05 <NGC3982> Yes, the bewildered nature of hard drive ambient noise.
19:03:26 <andythenorth> I would be very bored if I was a sysadmin
19:03:30 <andythenorth> I hate computers :)
19:03:36 <NGC3982> I noticed an old server SCSI-drive at work made an almost perfect A-tone while browsing in thumbnails.
19:03:56 <andythenorth> I've got a zombie varnish instance running
19:04:01 <andythenorth> how do I ps to find the fucker?
19:04:38 <NGC3982> T'was like bosoms covered in roses and chocolate.
19:05:36 <andythenorth> apparently no varnish process
19:05:41 <andythenorth> yet it's serving me errors quite happil
19:05:56 <Rubidium> netstat -lpn|grep <port>
19:08:06 <Rubidium> no netstat? What kind OS is that?
19:08:41 <Rubidium> or maybe they removed it from Mac OS X because it has no fancy user interface
19:08:49 <andythenorth> not in macports either :(
19:09:09 <andythenorth> found it with ps ax | grep varnish
19:09:38 <Rubidium> under Network Utility there's a Netstat tab (or so wikipedia says)
19:09:50 <SpComb> every sysadmin has their own ps-incantation that they use
19:09:59 <andythenorth> oh yeah there's a GUI netstat
19:10:03 * andythenorth tries to avoid the GUI
19:10:14 <andythenorth> the gui is for Twitter and email
19:10:21 <Alberth> at a mac? good luck :)
19:10:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: most stuff is in terminal as god intended
19:10:57 <andythenorth> except drawing and crap like that
19:11:23 <andythenorth> it has a crappy port manager too
19:11:28 <andythenorth> but I didn't pay for that I guess :P
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19:35:26 <Belugas> i am sooooo bored.... log analysis and update deployment... I should not get near forums!
19:39:42 <andythenorth> Belugas: nothing there anyway
19:39:51 * andythenorth has broken CK Editor
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19:51:05 <Asteconn> Is ther eany quick wa
19:51:32 <Asteconn> Is there any quick way to change all of my vehicles service intervals from 150% to 15% at once?
19:54:36 <NGC3982> I would like to know that too.
20:53:40 <Asteconn> God damn this is taking forever ;____;
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21:55:01 <NGC3982> What was the name of that truck GRF with lots of big trucks and heavy stuff?
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