IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-26
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00:49:29 <Supercheese> Argg, can't build stations under bridges
01:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> nope, annoying. especially for bus/tram stations...
01:00:50 <glx> prevents graphical glitches
01:01:59 <Supercheese> Well, at least the inverse works, tunneling underneath stations
01:22:07 <Supercheese> Is there any way, when renaming, to delete the line of existing text without just holding down backspace? Select all and Shift+Home don't work...
01:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
01:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the input GUI never was adapted for selecting and copy-paste
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06:21:16 <andythenorth> the world gets neither better nor happier if I reply to that newgrf changing thread, right?
06:24:47 * andythenorth should never go in the suggestions forum
06:30:32 <planetmaker> morning andythenorth and all others
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06:36:18 <GondonyGlaz> Are some Russians here?
06:37:55 <planetmaker> but I'm not one of them
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07:33:10 <andythenorth> some people seem to labour under the fallacy that open source is a collectivist, group effort towards some good end
07:33:53 <andythenorth> whereas it's a prime example of Ayn Rand-style individualism producing a beneficial result
07:34:10 <andythenorth> open source works because people pursue selfish ends
07:34:20 * andythenorth will now go away again
07:34:44 <andythenorth> philosophy is _probably_ not the anti-dote to fuckheads :P
07:35:35 <Kjetil> Go play with your closed source facistic OS
07:36:29 <andythenorth> is play allowed in the Kingdom of Apple?
07:36:54 <andythenorth> or must we all spend our time organising our music collections by genre?
07:37:04 <Kjetil> When you mention it.. probably not. You should probably go to some hipster cafe instead
07:37:08 <andythenorth> I have seen our future hell, and it is alphabetised
07:37:25 <Supercheese> and rated 1-5 stars
07:38:09 <andythenorth> and organised into playlists, to suit your every mood
07:38:43 * andythenorth writes some code
07:39:01 * Supercheese builds some airships
07:39:15 * planetmaker fixes some tunnel entrances
07:41:23 * Kjetil is going to spend the day watching a live broadcastt of a boat on TV
07:41:45 * Prof_Frink is going to jump off a cliff.
07:42:33 <andythenorth> do it when the tide is in
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09:41:38 <Zuu_> Did you play any more games? I saw your PM but hav not yet had time to respond to it.
09:42:15 <andythenorth> Zuu_: no more games yet
09:42:22 <andythenorth> my laptop died :P
09:42:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker Alberth yexo frosch123: fancy MP GS today ?
09:43:09 <andythenorth> either FIRS NoCargoGoal, or we write this idea I had "Power Grid" :)
09:44:01 <andythenorth> "The 5 largest cities want to adopt electricity"
09:44:27 <andythenorth> "To earn tycoon status, build a power plant in each city, and deliver coal to it"
09:44:36 <planetmaker> sorry, I'm away today
09:44:36 <andythenorth> 30-40 years to get it done
09:44:44 <planetmaker> But sure you can use the server
09:44:50 <andythenorth> Default industry
09:45:24 <Zuu_> Im witing for my train home and will surely not hav stable enough internet to play on.
09:46:08 <andythenorth> could write a GS :D
09:46:23 <planetmaker> server is still running
09:46:35 <planetmaker> so it's easy to load a new game
09:48:17 <Zuu_> Collecting yearly cargo delivery statistics with exactly correct year change date is non-trivial in a GS.
09:48:40 <Zuu_> But with a few days give and take it is doable.
09:48:46 <andythenorth> could change the goal....
09:48:50 <andythenorth> to be easier to code...
09:49:03 <andythenorth> is there a DNS problem in EU somewhere?
09:49:16 <andythenorth> various german / northern european sites are failing to resolve for me
09:49:21 <TrueBrain> lolz, too general question, answer has to be yes :P
09:49:30 * andythenorth will use down for me
09:49:49 <Rubidium> andythenorth: if you mean that /. is down for me, then yes ;)
09:49:57 <Zuu_> Possible. My Opera Mini fails at the moment but not the android default browser.
09:50:23 <andythenorth> must be this ISP
09:50:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 10 hours ago a major router in Germany crashed, but that is already fixed :P
09:57:45 <TrueBrain> ugh, websites where you cannot type a date, but have to select it ... I have to go back 4 years ....
09:59:25 <Zuu_> Or when the leading zero for time is mandatory.
10:00:06 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I am making one of those right now
10:00:20 <TrueBrain> or otherwise annoying: in the time field, tab doesnt bring me to minutes
10:00:23 <TrueBrain> I have to CLICK to get there
10:00:32 <andythenorth> no I'm making the other way around. I have fields where you *have* to type only
10:00:44 <andythenorth> I haven't bothered testing a datepicker for Bootstrap yet
10:06:56 <frosch123> TrueBrain: welcome to touchscreens :)
10:07:09 <frosch123> in 4 years you have to draw the number with your mouse on some area
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10:27:39 <andythenorth> so MP NoCargoGoal game later today, FIRS, maybe ~2 hours or so? 2pm UK time?
10:28:30 <frosch123> that's 15:00 in sane time?
10:30:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: then join the channel so that I can give you ops so that you can command the server. Or whoever wants to play
10:30:57 <planetmaker> I'm about to leave in the next 30 minutes
10:31:11 <planetmaker> or ask ammler to give it to you later
10:31:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: do you know how to use !rcon?
10:33:04 <frosch123> you need to be op in the channel at least or so
10:35:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: i don't, but i know where to look in the source for the documentation :p
10:42:07 <welshdragon> Morning, Why can't I choose the 'large' option when founding towns?
10:42:30 <bolli> I thought the large option was only there for cities?
10:43:25 <planetmaker> welshdragon: that's for the SE only
10:43:44 <planetmaker> if you fund towns, you don't start big. You have to build it slowly ingame
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11:32:36 <bolli> Is there any way to extract a crash log when the game just freezes and ends up getting zapped by the OS? :p
11:37:34 <frosch123> depends on what os you are :)
11:38:03 <frosch123> on linux you can attach a debugger, or alternatively send it signal 6
11:38:15 <frosch123> the former is better ofc
11:47:26 <bolli> however: *** OpenTTD Crash Report ***
11:50:28 <planetmaker> please. Use. A. Pasteservice. Like pastebin.com. Or paste.openttdcoop.org
11:51:21 <bolli> I'm just reading through it to see if theres anything I did to cause it....
11:52:11 <glx> if there is an easy reason it's written at the begin
11:54:08 <glx> .dmp is needed for more info
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12:01:50 <glx> indeed crash when loading a sprite
12:02:37 * Rubidium smells (re)compiling a NewGRF while it's being used by OpenTTD
12:03:35 <bolli> But its in a dropbox folder that symlinked to newgrf
12:03:41 <glx> anyway broken newgrf is the more probable cause
12:04:00 <bolli> I'm fiddling with one currently...
12:05:42 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I do that all the time :)
12:05:50 <andythenorth> and sometimes...it causes a crash :)
12:07:32 <Hirundo> I recently changed NML to unlink the file before writing, but that only helps on linux-y systems
12:16:25 <Fremen> anyone know a great 'infinite' server? as in no inflation, going hundreds of years :p just wondering how a map looks like after 1000 years of town growth
12:18:49 <SquireJames> like something from Judge Dredd I imagine
12:32:49 <Terkhen> Fremen: open the multiplayer server list ingame and sort it by years
12:33:06 <Terkhen> the server that has been in the same savegame for 11000 ingame years looks promisingly eternal
12:33:46 <Fremen> hehe yeah, but would be bnice to be in one when it's around starting date
12:34:19 <Fremen> I'll think about running a server by myself
12:34:27 <Fremen> hoping that people find it :p
12:35:06 <Terkhen> given the client/server ratio, that is unlikely unless your server offers something that the others do not
12:37:58 <Fremen> I should know more aout huw much network traffic a server generates
12:38:08 <TrueBrain> that is all well documented :)
12:38:30 <TrueBrain> short answer: a non-issue for any non-dialup :P
12:38:53 <TrueBrain> CPU on the other hand ...
12:38:58 <Fremen> I have a bandwidth limit though
12:39:09 <Rubidium> unless your broadband is capped at 500 MB/month or so
12:39:27 <TrueBrain> @calc 500*1024 / 2 / 30 / 24 / 60 / 60
12:39:27 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.0987654320988
12:39:45 <TrueBrain> @calc 500*1024 / 2 / 30 / 24 / 60
12:39:45 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 5.92592592593
12:39:53 <TrueBrain> even then you can run 6 people Rubidium, 24/7 :P
12:40:09 <TrueBrain> hmm, my math is in failure somewhere ... what-ever :P
12:40:25 <TrueBrain> @calc 2*60*60*24*30
12:41:08 <Rubidium> 5GB / client a month if connected 24/7
12:41:32 <Rubidium> and actually using the 2 kB/s
12:41:47 <TrueBrain> map size is totally irrelevant for network traffic
12:42:13 <Fremen> so a 6 player would result in 30GB per month
12:42:20 <Fremen> if continuously connecte
12:42:50 <Rubidium> and that includes the players building stuff, chatting and such
12:43:15 <Rubidium> if they don't do that you would use less
12:43:43 <Fremen> where can I find info on what ports to forward and such?
12:43:48 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:43:49 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:43:51 <Rubidium> ugh... my work laptop is so unfit for duty
12:44:17 <TrueBrain> Fremen: or more general, README.txt
12:45:17 <Warod> Damn. It didn't fall into my trick of methods of antique communications. ;)
12:45:34 <Rubidium> database heavy application (somewhat computation heavy as well) and not reaching more than 5% CPU; the rest is lost in waiting for (disk) IO of the DBMS
12:46:31 <Warod> I just bought 250 GB OCZ Vertex 4 for my work/hobbies/freetime laptop. ;)
12:46:42 <Rubidium> what antique communication?
12:46:51 <Rubidium> try implementing RFC6214
12:47:02 <Rubidium> now that's old fashioned
12:47:25 <TrueBrain> RFC1149 I like more
12:47:40 <TrueBrain> as IPv6 is n ot old fashioned
12:49:41 <TrueBrain> RFC2549 at least has pictures
12:51:56 <Rubidium> "In some locations, such as New Zealand, a significant proportion of carriers are only able to execute short hops, and only at times when the background level of photon emission is extremely low. This will impact the availability and throughput of the solution in such locations."
12:53:28 <Fremen> darn can't join those longterm servers because of the version
12:55:17 <bolli1> Reading back up... 30GB seems a lot more than I use....
12:55:42 <bolli1> I run a server thats got a few people connected at any time, and it barely uses 4-5GB/ month....
12:56:01 <TrueBrain> bolli1: what about "worst case" didnt you understand? :)
12:56:38 <bolli1> Worst case can't be 5-6x worse? :p
12:56:41 *** bolli1 is now known as bolli
12:56:55 <TrueBrain> there is a limitation on the worst case? Kewl
12:57:13 <Rubidium> bolli: how long does it take to go from London to New York?
12:58:06 <bolli> As long as a piece of string. Whereas, data usage is fairly predictable :p
12:59:02 <Rubidium> I'd say the time you need to get from London to New York is fairly predictable as well
12:59:31 <bolli> But it depends how you get there ;)
13:00:21 <bolli> I'm just saying that 30GB is a significant overexaggeration in my experience :p
13:00:47 <Alberth> worst case != realistic estimate
13:02:06 <Rubidium> also, it's actually not the worst case. It's the measured average on a busy server for a few hours times two
13:02:25 <Rubidium> in absolute worst case it can use as much as the bandwidth to your server allows
13:03:26 <TrueBrain> that would be a bug :)
13:04:32 <Fremen> can't find a link to the 1.2.1 version :( just want to check one of those insane servers :p
13:04:52 <Rubidium> Fremen: openttd.org/download-stable/<version>
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13:13:13 <Fremen> lol some serve ris running on hard, inflation on in year 4000+
13:13:54 <Alberth> some people prefer a hard game
13:15:29 <Fremen> inflation model is just wrong after so much time
13:16:21 <andythenorth> Terkhen: Yexo MP NoCargoGoal with FIRS ?
13:16:56 <Rubidium> bolli: did some calculations and if you didn't change the frame_freq, then you have, on average 1/6th of a player connected
13:17:21 <Rubidium> as ~1850 bytes per second are used for announcing the frames
13:17:53 <andythenorth> OpenTTD runs in 10.7 btw
13:17:58 <andythenorth> not full screen o/c :P
13:18:08 <Rubidium> bolli: oh... sorry, 1 player on average
13:18:44 <andythenorth> V453000: MP NoCargoGoal FIRS?
13:22:31 <Zuu_> andythenorth: The name is NoCarGoal :-)
13:22:46 <andythenorth> Zuu_: you're on a train?
13:23:30 <Zuu_> I'm taking a look on the other suggestions for the GS and adding those that are not to complicated to add.
13:25:19 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I'm doing house chores now :P
13:29:24 <Zuu_> What is the unit size of Steel cargo? 1 tone? 2 tonnes? 0.5 tonnes?
13:29:59 <Zuu_> Eg what does one internal cargo unit correspond to in the GUI?
13:30:27 <Rubidium> and don't really care ;)
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13:30:58 <Zuu_> How are the two params for {CARGO} joined togeather to one integer parameter?
13:31:14 <Rubidium> it takes two parameters
13:31:17 <Zuu_> Or does {CARGO} grab two integers from the param list?
13:31:47 <Zuu_> amount + cargo id? or the other way around?
13:31:56 <Rubidium> IIRC the other way around
13:32:16 <Matulla> hi all ,Question if i got a station laft and right on the city same station name the one is near to a powerplant does it has a effect if i transport cole to the near or far station all acept cole
13:33:40 <Zuu_> It doesn't matter to which part of a station that you transport cargo to.
13:33:53 <Zuu_> As long as all parts belong to the same station name.
13:34:57 <TrueBrain> ethics is for people who give a shit
13:36:04 <Rubidium> noob IRC etiquette/ethics is to expect an answer within milliseconds, if not you disconnect, otherwise you disconnect just after the first answer was given
13:37:08 <Fremen> mIRC ethics = connect and never manually disconnect
13:37:38 <TrueBrain> and then you end up with 116 people in a channel
13:37:52 <TrueBrain> I once considered writing a bot who kicks anyone who hasn't said anything for 7+ days :P
13:37:55 <TrueBrain> just to see what happens
13:38:07 <TrueBrain> depends on what your goal is :D
13:38:48 <TrueBrain> mine would be to see how many really notice :)
13:38:54 <Fremen> well on quakenet I'm still in channels from my 2001 UT clan which has disbanded 10 years ago :p
13:42:02 <Zuu_> No matter which order I provide cargo_id or cargo_amount, the string output ends just before the {CARGO} code. :-(
13:43:20 <Fremen> hm is there a server function to automatically bankrupt playr companies after not logging in for xx years?
13:43:25 <Zuu_> I guess I need to wait until I can run OpenTTD from a debugger and see what goes wrong. Maybe dual param string codes are not (yet) supported in GS/AIs?
13:44:03 <Zuu_> Fremen: IIRC yes. See your openttd.cfg
13:44:36 <Zuu_> there are one value for passworded companies and one for unprotected companies
13:44:51 <Zuu_> IIRC, the name to look for is 'autoclean'
13:47:53 <Fremen> the one thing I'm really worried about is server restarts
13:48:07 <Fremen> if my power fails or something is it easy to restart it?
13:48:31 <Zuu_> If you have autosave enabled
13:48:40 <Zuu_> You can resume from there
13:48:57 <Zuu_> However, all passwords will be lost if you load an autosave.
13:57:52 *** Terkhen changes topic to "1.2.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
13:58:31 <Terkhen> meh, this computer is starting to get very stupid
14:07:36 <bolli> Right, another question....
14:07:55 <bolli> How do I Make a train with push-pull carriages?
14:08:30 <bolli> IE- I have a locomotive with a DBSO, how do I make that work?
14:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really possible, but some NewGRFs "cheat" in switching around the graphics of the engine and the last wagon. but this may be tedious if you have lots of possible combinations
14:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you would read "vehicle_is_reversed" in a switch, in that case
14:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> for the engines 0 means "draw engine" and 1 "draw wagon", for the last wagon the other way around
14:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> note that this will have horrible side effects if you have wagons of different length
14:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you should also check "extra_callback_info1" to only do this switching on the map, not in the depot or vehicle lists/details
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14:44:01 <bolli> So theres no nice way to do it?
14:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs support for driving backwards in the game mechanics, which is a difficult task, which nobody dared to implement yet
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16:31:27 <Muxy> Yexo: about ET_VEHICLE_OLD, i wrote a topic at tt-forums with a poll. AI writers will be able to reply and choose what they want.
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16:35:31 <Alberth> seems like a good idea
16:35:50 <Alberth> although you may not get agreement :p
16:36:50 <Alberth> I was wondering whether you could keep an administration yourself, ie you know when you bought it, and you know its lifetime (I hope)
16:38:28 <Alberth> if you don't know its lifetime, another option is to set the event to something early, and you can keep an administration from that moment perhaps
16:38:44 <Muxy> Alberth: i think this event will permit to avoid a loop on all vehicles and check the age
16:39:18 <Muxy> and you know that looping in script uses lot of cpu time
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16:40:35 <Muxy> and if you look at dictatorAI (i dont really know about other), it builds a lot of vehicle.
16:42:02 <Alberth> what I mean is that you store the end time at the moment you buy the vehicle
16:42:27 <Muxy> but you need some trigger to send it to depot and renew it
16:42:50 <Alberth> you don't do daily or monthly loops or so?
16:43:35 <Alberth> just add a check whether the first end time has pased or not
16:44:01 <Muxy> but if someone request it for its AI it's just because the daily/monthly loop are to heavy
16:45:03 <TrueBrain> why not make a parameter (explicit) with the time till it ages?
16:45:14 <TrueBrain> so you get first one with -1 year, than 0 year, than <whatever> year?
16:45:45 <Alberth> TrueBrain: should be limited to the last -12 to +12 months, like the player
16:46:14 <TrueBrain> Alberth: I really wouldnt know when these things are triggered; but Yexo worries about that it triggers 3 times, if I read this correctly
16:46:19 <Muxy> TrueBrain: Script parameter ?
16:46:23 <TrueBrain> which indeed is wrong, to trigger the same identical event 3 times
16:46:27 <TrueBrain> so .. just add a parameter ;)
16:46:52 <TrueBrain> Muxy: in ScriptEventVehicleIsOld
16:46:55 <TrueBrain> it now carries only vehicle_id
16:47:02 <Muxy> TrueBrain: not 3 times, but 2 and 1 every year after lifetime
16:47:03 <TrueBrain> so add some parameter to indicate which version to it
16:47:15 <TrueBrain> something like 'year' or what-ever
16:47:48 <Muxy> who sets the parameter ? Script
16:47:52 <TrueBrain> then the events are no longer identical
16:48:10 <TrueBrain> why would a script set the parameter of the event?
16:48:22 <Muxy> to be warned when requested
16:48:31 <TrueBrain> that makes little sense ...
16:48:38 <TrueBrain> like I said: exactly like the vehicle_id
16:48:41 <TrueBrain> but just an extra parameter
16:49:11 <Muxy> goal is to trigger this event only once regardless of the version
16:49:22 <TrueBrain> I think that is wrong
16:49:33 <TrueBrain> which is what I am saying
16:49:50 <Muxy> ok, but Yexo said : this event must be triggered only once
16:50:00 <TrueBrain> and I disagree; I suggest a counter purposal
16:51:18 <Muxy> yop but as it will be triggered, the script must take action : send to depot, and renew
16:51:23 <TrueBrain> so, to summarize: trigger the event N times as it is needed, just like a human player gets the event, but add a parameter to the event which indicates how many years (negative for future) the vehicle has been expired
16:52:04 <TrueBrain> avoids identical events being triggered under different circumstances, and maintains the NoAI philosohy: do the same for AIs as happens for players
16:52:41 <Muxy> and in the script, what will be the logic to choose the event version to take action... just kiss, and with 1 event it will be ok
16:52:58 <TrueBrain> I disagree, and your poll shows exactly why it is wrong
16:53:24 <TrueBrain> the fact you have multiple moments you can trigger this event, shows there is not a single moment you should do it
16:54:23 <Muxy> yes but in the script you just need 1 trigger to perform action. if you have many triggers, then you must have a logic to choose what version you will use
16:54:39 <TrueBrain> if (year != -1) continue;
16:54:44 <TrueBrain> owh no .. the logic is killing me :D
16:54:56 <TrueBrain> it is identical to filtering which events you care about ;)
16:55:29 <Muxy> try to optimze the script by removing all useless things
16:55:41 <TrueBrain> by removing freedom of choice?
16:55:44 <TrueBrain> sounds a wrong kind of optimization
16:56:01 <TrueBrain> for example, you don't need the event, as Alberth pointed out
16:56:26 <TrueBrain> personally, I would like to know every year my vehicle is not renewed
16:56:29 <TrueBrain> it can indicate issues and problems
16:56:36 <TrueBrain> a player does receive this information .. and an AI won't?
16:57:53 <TrueBrain> the whole NoAI framework is build on: if the player can do it, the AI can too. If the player can't? Neither can the AI
16:58:05 <Rubidium> why not just add the date of the event? That's probably useful for all events
16:58:19 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: how would that help? :)
16:58:19 <Rubidium> after all, the user can see the date of the event as well
16:58:30 <TrueBrain> I think you misunderstand the issue :)
16:58:30 <Muxy> ok, i dont care about sending this event once or many. Just following Yexo wills. better have this discussion with Yexo, or write something in the tt-forum thread.
16:59:00 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: the EVENT is now triggered every year, from -1 year from expiring
16:59:07 <TrueBrain> with no indication inside the EVENT it is different
16:59:17 <TrueBrain> so year N you get the event, year N+1, N+2, ...
16:59:40 <TrueBrain> Yexo indicates in the bug tracker he wants it only triggered once
16:59:47 <TrueBrain> for example, at -1 years of expiring
17:00:15 <TrueBrain> I can understand that partily, as every year you get an identical event, which is weird
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17:00:32 <TrueBrain> so Rubidium, adding the date the event is triggered doesn't really help in that solution; or I must understand you wrong ofcourse :)
17:00:37 <Muxy> but for this event, goal is to replace asap a vehicle
17:00:45 <TrueBrain> Muxy: in your AI, maybe
17:00:55 <Rubidium> if you want to send only one, then just send the first one
17:01:01 <TrueBrain> I might always want my vehicles to be 5 years over date
17:01:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: which is wrong, in my opinion; just send one every year, like a player gets them
17:01:30 <TrueBrain> why make that desision for the AI writer?
17:01:35 <Rubidium> then what *is* the problem?
17:01:53 <TrueBrain> I only suggest to add a paramter with the year to expire, for clarity sake
17:01:54 <Rubidium> and how does adding the date of the event not help?
17:02:03 <Muxy> sending event only once (yexo will)or many times (truebrain will)
17:02:19 <Rubidium> you can calculate the overdue age
17:02:24 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you can anyway ;)
17:02:35 <TrueBrain> but isn't sending the year as parameter more clear?
17:02:35 <Rubidium> and it might be very useful for all other events that you know whether it's recent or not
17:02:39 <TrueBrain> at least, visible to the user? :)
17:02:40 <Muxy> AIScript dont care about event date. Goal is to renew vehicle asap (in a competion way of playing)
17:02:50 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: on that last part I agree, but that is something else :D
17:02:54 <Rubidium> like industry closure
17:03:05 <TrueBrain> having an event date sounds like a really good idea
17:03:10 <TrueBrain> but it doesn't really solve this problem at hand
17:03:19 <TrueBrain> it makes it rather annoying to calculate it tbh :)
17:04:15 <Rubidium> just use superlib or so to implement that
17:04:23 <TrueBrain> waste of opcodes tbfh
17:04:35 <Rubidium> then you can also use it in your normal code to renew them two years before expiring
17:04:39 <TrueBrain> and personally, I think events should be unique
17:04:41 <Muxy> other way : event can be sent every year, starting from buying with parameter : year remaning till lifetime
17:04:51 <Rubidium> then you need the date
17:05:07 <Rubidium> as (almost) all other events are inherently ununique as well
17:05:35 <Rubidium> industry closure, is that unique? No, after a few year the replacement industry closes and sends the exact same event
17:05:36 <TrueBrain> maybe I should word it better, but when I get an event VEHICLE_ARRIVED
17:05:46 <TrueBrain> it is rather unique, as in: I know exactly what happened based on the parameters
17:05:50 <TrueBrain> which arrived where and when
17:05:54 <Rubidium> production changes: same idea
17:06:02 <Rubidium> industry opened: same idea
17:06:08 <TrueBrain> I think you have an other understand of unique, so please listen for a bit
17:06:15 <TrueBrain> when I get an industry opened, I know where and what industrry opened
17:06:21 <TrueBrain> so I know all there is need to know
17:06:28 <TrueBrain> when I receive a vehicle-old, I .. know .. too little
17:06:32 <TrueBrain> is it -1 year? 0 year?
17:06:39 <TrueBrain> in that way, I mean unique
17:06:45 <TrueBrain> it misses a constraint
17:06:50 <TrueBrain> maybe that is more clear to understand?
17:07:28 <TrueBrain> I tried to write all events to send just enough information, that you can uniquely identify an event
17:07:42 <TrueBrain> a production change, you know which industry changed; there can be no doubt about it
17:07:52 <TrueBrain> you get what I mean now?
17:08:01 <Rubidium> actually, that may very well be an previous industry
17:08:30 <TrueBrain> but, to make it easier: lets assume I read my events as soon as they arrive
17:08:34 <Rubidium> and I reckon you get a vehicle ID with the vehicle old age event just like you only get an industry ID with the new industry event
17:09:29 <TrueBrain> but we never send 2 events for the same industry ID ;)
17:09:36 * Rubidium wonders what the difference is between: AIIndustry.GetLocation(event.GetIndustryID()) and AIVehicle.GetAgeLeft(event.GetVehicleID())
17:10:07 <TrueBrain> the industry-open / industrID event is unique, in the sense .. ugh, I have been over this :P
17:10:13 <TrueBrain> dammit, I run out of ways to explain this :)
17:10:43 <TrueBrain> take the crash event
17:10:49 <TrueBrain> would you say the crash_site parameter is unneeded?
17:10:53 <Rubidium> if you read the event queue immediately the vehicle age event is unique as well
17:10:53 <TrueBrain> as you can ask the vehicle where it is?
17:11:25 <TrueBrain> okay, let me try this differently ..
17:11:29 <TrueBrain> if you remove all silly raceconditions
17:11:33 <Rubidium> no, by the time you read the queue the vehicle might be gone. And it might be hindsight that the same happens with most other events
17:11:34 <TrueBrain> like industry open / close / open under the same ID
17:11:36 <TrueBrain> silly stuff like that
17:11:49 <TrueBrain> if we assume that you are "quick" enough to be in time to read industry data like that
17:12:04 <TrueBrain> in that assumption, all current events are identifyable by their parameters
17:12:28 <TrueBrain> now we have this vehicle-old event
17:12:46 <TrueBrain> if the event arrives, as script, you miss a vital piece of information
17:12:50 <TrueBrain> a crash event, happens when you crashed
17:12:55 <TrueBrain> industry open, when you open an industry
17:13:00 <TrueBrain> vehicle-old .. well .. -1 year, 0 year, N years ..
17:13:05 <TrueBrain> it can be a wide variaty of things
17:13:12 <TrueBrain> you see the subtle difference here?
17:13:42 <Rubidium> if you are "quick" enough you get that info with GetAgeLeft
17:14:04 <TrueBrain> the main difference is, the "quick" is in other magnitudes here
17:14:19 <TrueBrain> I personally would find it rather unclear to receive a vehicle-old, which might be any of the above cases
17:14:21 <TrueBrain> I have no clue which
17:14:26 <TrueBrain> where industry-open is .. well ...
17:14:40 <TrueBrain> that said, I do agree that industry-open should also get IndustryType as parameter
17:15:25 <TrueBrain> in all cases, I think Yexo has a long enough backlog to laugh his ass off ;)
17:15:37 <Rubidium> but does it matter? If you handle the queue after a year and you want to use the event to renew vehicles that are 5 years overdue. Do you use the "5" value of your proposed event, or the GetAgeLeft of the moment you read/handle the event?
17:16:00 <Rubidium> because in the former case you renew them at over due age 6
17:16:16 <TrueBrain> I agree with that; my issue is that the event is unclear
17:16:17 <Rubidium> IMO AIVehicleLost is much more troublesome
17:16:24 <TrueBrain> it becomes this grey area effect
17:16:35 <TrueBrain> and from a lazy-point-of-view, a parameter iseasiest
17:16:35 <Rubidium> as that lovely even can easily be read when the vehicle is not lost at all
17:16:49 <TrueBrain> the Lost one is annoying even as player
17:16:55 <TrueBrain> too often I get that years after the vehicle got lost
17:16:58 <TrueBrain> as my news is backlogged :P
17:17:16 <TrueBrain> the old-event, I see more as: I want to trigger at 2 years, and don't want to do any complex blabla :)
17:17:24 <Rubidium> I rather would like to avoid adding parameters to the events as all it does is make the queue larger (in memory) when the queue isn't read at all
17:17:42 <TrueBrain> lets not worry about 8 bytes more or less please :D
17:17:46 <TrueBrain> you wanted to add the date ;)
17:17:51 <TrueBrain> now that consumes memory :P
17:17:56 <Rubidium> yes, so I can trash old events
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17:18:00 <TrueBrain> don't start with the memory argument :)
17:18:11 <TrueBrain> how much memory does the map take?
17:18:14 <TrueBrain> how much does a Squirrel VM take?
17:18:20 <TrueBrain> one parameter more or less won't show up :)
17:18:47 <Rubidium> one not, but it won't take long to add even more "might be useful" parameters
17:19:01 <TrueBrain> seriously, even with 10 parameters each event
17:19:03 <TrueBrain> it is a non-issue :)
17:19:10 <Rubidium> because AIVehicle.foo(event.GetVehicleID() is much more complex than event.foo()
17:20:01 <TrueBrain> anyway, if anything I much rather have N events than one, per vehicle
17:20:06 <Rubidium> the problem with the events is that there is NO maximum bound on the amount in the queue, so for AIs that don't care about events it is a (massive) memory leak
17:20:13 <TrueBrain> and to make them somewhat unique in the queue, I would add a year parameter
17:20:18 <TrueBrain> feel free to disagree :D
17:20:29 <Fremen> aha server is running for testing, incredibly easy and light in cpu
17:20:29 <TrueBrain> that is a completely different problem :)
17:20:36 <TrueBrain> on which I do agree btw, and it shoudl be fixed :)
17:21:35 <Muxy> ok men, now let's place in 2 cases : competitive AI and Lazy AI
17:21:53 <Muxy> in a competitive way, the best is to replace vehicle asap, right ?
17:22:16 <TrueBrain> I would replace them a bit later, depending on my wallet
17:22:21 <TrueBrain> sure, it is good for standing
17:22:25 <TrueBrain> but replacing them after 2 years is even better
17:22:32 <TrueBrain> so competitive, if I had the money, I would replace them every 2 years
17:22:34 <Muxy> hum yes, you reached the point
17:22:47 <TrueBrain> there are so many variables there
17:22:50 <Muxy> i forget the money point
17:22:54 <TrueBrain> you cannot say: this should be done, or this
17:23:00 <TrueBrain> it is up to the writer of an AI
17:23:24 <TrueBrain> (it is why the NoAI framework doesn't do anything for you :P)
17:23:28 <Rubidium> so... add the date to the event, add a GetAgeLeft to the AIVehicleAncientEvent that does Vehicle.AgeLeft(ev.GetVEhicleID())-current_date+ev.GetDate()
17:23:31 <Muxy> ok, that's why i changed the poll with another option
17:23:45 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I guess that would work too, yes
17:23:55 <TrueBrain> and I would add a "max-age-of-event" setting
17:23:59 <TrueBrain> defaulted like 5 years
17:24:01 <Muxy> and the parameter would be usefull to know how many years it remain before lifetime
17:24:01 <TrueBrain> removing events older
17:24:16 <Rubidium> (except when the vehicle is removed)
17:24:35 <TrueBrain> it does leave the race conditions of industry-open, industry-close
17:24:55 <Muxy> the event can be triggered every year from begining, indicating remaining year from life-time
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17:25:11 <TrueBrain> Muxy: can a player do that?
17:25:12 <Muxy> then the AI choose when its the best moment to replace it
17:25:37 <TrueBrain> get an event from the beginngn of a vehicle
17:25:38 <Muxy> checking its vehicle list every year ?
17:26:02 <TrueBrain> no, by events (news-items, etc)
17:26:11 <TrueBrain> the basic rule always applies: AIs can only get what players get too
17:26:19 <TrueBrain> an AI can poll the vehicle list every year too
17:26:36 <TrueBrain> the rule might sound a bit bitchy etc, but it keeps AIs fair
17:26:43 <TrueBrain> they can never cheat, as they can never do anything a player can't
17:26:59 <Muxy> but if you say : AI should do what players can do...
17:27:09 <glx> AI cpu usage is limited anyway
17:27:26 <Muxy> how many vehicle a player can build in a finite period of time ?
17:27:40 <TrueBrain> as many as an AI can
17:28:04 <Muxy> by duplicating vehicle, yes
17:28:17 <Muxy> but with other station list, ...
17:29:11 <TrueBrain> streching ... okay, let me rephrase: an AI never receives or can obtain information in a way a player cannot
17:30:17 <Rubidium> actually, then we should trash events much sooner ;)
17:30:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: sometimes I get events years after event :P
17:30:32 <TrueBrain> I like those popups
17:30:34 <TrueBrain> and they are SLOW :P
17:31:09 <Rubidium> events for uses have a "best use before" date
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17:45:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24498 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
17:45:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: welsh - 32 changes by kazzie
18:01:59 <Fremen> damn addicted to this game
18:02:15 <Fremen> new games come out every month now and I just want to play this :d
18:08:34 <Alberth> think of all the money you're saving! :)
18:09:35 *** George is now known as Guest4489
18:10:56 <Fremen> ah well TL2 will keep me busy from 31th august though
18:11:20 <Fremen> great thing with openttd is you can play it together with otehr games and activities :p
18:12:04 <TrueBrain> nope; there is a law against that
18:15:28 <Fremen> the police as in my gf? :p
18:15:39 <TrueBrain> why is the police in your gf?
18:15:41 <TrueBrain> this is a bit odd story
18:23:39 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
18:23:50 <Alberth> the police is only for finding the guys that violate a low, which is not necessary here, we already know you do
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18:39:36 <andythenorth> my named anchor is not working :(
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19:00:39 <Fremen> anyone mind testing joining my server?
19:00:48 *** SquireJames has joined #openttd
19:00:58 <Fremen> not everything is set up yet but just want to know if that works :p
19:01:21 <bolli> what version? :p 1.2.2?
19:02:17 <Fremen> [BE] [Test] Leto's blabla
19:03:22 <bolli> apparently it doesn't work...
19:04:04 <Fremen> ports are forwarded, so must be something else
19:04:55 <Fremen> too low? standard is 500
19:05:16 <bolli> put it to something like 4k to test it? :p
19:06:11 <bolli> seems to be a fairly slow connection...
19:06:41 <bolli> although, that could be because I'm used to cloud server upload speeds...
19:07:31 <Fremen> shouldn't be to slow but it's a huge map
19:08:10 <bolli> I have mine set to 32000, so thats probably why I don't have any issues with it any more...
19:08:20 <Fremen> can connect to it from other pc but yeah local I guess
19:08:52 <Fremen> always had probas with firewalls and port forwarding while I'm doing nothin wrong :s
19:09:26 <bolli> Anyway, Seems to have worked
19:09:30 <Fremen> so it's my router being an idiot
19:10:23 <bolli> It isn't an ISP provided router is it? :P
19:11:01 <Fremen> I'm in IT sector so I know a bit what I'm doing :p
19:11:07 <Fremen> still I'm no specialist
19:12:13 <bolli> One of our clients has been having a lot of trouble lately with their router.... Turns out they got somebody in to do some different IT work and accidentally reset it to factory settings...
19:12:50 <bolli> That was about 2 days of faffing with it to get it back to working order again.
19:13:17 <bolli> hmm... I like the Big buttons on that server :P
19:13:59 <Fremen> hehe yeh I discovered the OpenGFX+ stuff
19:14:05 <Fremen> only didn't use the landscape
19:14:08 <Fremen> I liek to see the grid :p
19:14:24 <bolli> I might have to try those out....
19:14:29 <Fremen> the normal size is small on a HD monitor
19:15:36 <bolli> My laptop doesn't like Openttd on small sizes, I think if i ran it on a HD monitor, it would explode..
19:16:51 <Fremen> I could barely read income per train on the list etc
19:17:10 <Fremen> in those days we all had 800-600 monitors at best
19:26:41 <SquireJames> Ah the good old days ;)
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19:31:38 <Fremen> there are still people playing at 800x600 ... Diablo 2 insane prople
19:33:25 <bolli> you should see my second monitor at home.... 1998s finest... :P
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20:56:51 <Zuu> Hmm, when I search through the entire solution for "SHORTCARGO", I only find the cases when it is used, but not any place when that string is defined.
20:57:23 * Zuu is trying to find the place in code which map the string params to their type.
21:02:47 <michi_cc> Zuu: That's probably because in strgen it is called CARGO_SHORT. Look at FormatString() in strings.cpp.
21:03:50 <Zuu> I've ended up there now. I see there is a constant CC_CARGO_SHORT that is possible externally linked with {CARGOSHORT}
21:05:15 <michi_cc> The mapping is in table\strgen_tables.h
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21:07:35 <Zuu> It seems that its not until the news message window is constructed that the string parameters are evaluated in FormatString when they are passed from a GS.
21:08:10 <Zuu> But I'm not exactly sure yet
21:19:27 <Zuu> Problem solved. There is no such identifier as {CARGO}.
21:26:08 <Fremen> hmmm crap, with the OpenGFX+ new GUI there are no groups to put vehicles in ...
21:26:52 <glx> check the advanced options
21:31:25 <Fremen> never had to set that one
21:33:27 <Fremen> wonder why it has reset by itself
22:07:59 <Fremen> if anyone wants to join, got 2 people on my 512x512 100 year server starting 1935, I want to see how it performs te next 24 hrs !
22:08:22 <Fremen> [BE] [Test] Leto's blabla
22:08:36 <Fremen> blabla as i'm too lazy to type tthe rest
22:09:13 <Kjetil> Is is a desert game with shai-hulud ?
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