IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-25
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03:35:15 <unknowz> hi and good night everyone (here gmt-3, so its night =] )
03:36:01 <unknowz> i would like to know if there is a list of IA who works in the new stable version. or can you'll tell me a good one!?
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06:58:58 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 9 hours, 6 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Zuu> Night
07:03:33 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you like Squirrel? :D
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07:25:56 <andythenorth> stinky stinky svn
07:26:21 <andythenorth> how do I do a revert all
07:27:53 <Terkhen> I have only checked it a bit, though
07:29:26 * Terkhen plans to code some C++ for a change
07:32:28 <Supercheese> Hmmm, how does OTTD color reserved tracks? Based on the track_overlay?
07:32:38 <Supercheese> well, not "color" but, "darken", rather
07:38:37 <andythenorth> because it has stupid gameplay effects
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07:39:29 <andythenorth> and it makes no sense except wrt realism
07:39:42 <andythenorth> or just "that's how the code is already"
07:39:44 <Terkhen> I would understand for the locks case, but you don't strictly need to overbuild the river with canals to move ships through it
07:41:13 <andythenorth> more of an accident usually
07:41:21 <andythenorth> let me test a few things
07:43:34 <andythenorth> Terkhen: the main issue is that it makes building locks on a river insanely expensive
07:43:40 <andythenorth> which is maybe very realistic and all
07:43:57 <andythenorth> but it's silly for gameplay, and quite unexpected when it takes all your money away
07:46:40 <Wolf01> I'm with andy on this problem
07:47:07 <andythenorth> additionally I think canals should just be cheaper, for early gameplay
07:47:19 <andythenorth> but that's a separate issue (and I can solve some of it in newgrf)
07:50:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: WRT to default costs, IMO many of them do not make much sense, but unless we want to change costs in old savegames the only way to change them is via NewGRFs
07:51:03 <Terkhen> I'm curious about the building canals over rivers issue because I never encountered it while using ships, that's why I don't see the problem :P
07:55:20 <andythenorth> the locks are the main place you'll encounter it
07:55:40 <andythenorth> a lock on river costs ~4x more than not on river
07:55:59 <andythenorth> which might be justifiable wrt reality or state of codebase
07:56:11 <andythenorth> but it's pointless extra detail for gameplay
07:56:15 <Supercheese> My ships tend to throw the "ship is lost" error a lot on rivers
07:56:26 <Supercheese> despite them finding the way fine...
07:56:35 <andythenorth> mine get lost :P
07:56:42 <andythenorth> or can't turn around
07:56:47 <bolli> Surely, In reality they cost a lot more to build on a river?
07:56:58 <andythenorth> and that's useful because? :P
07:56:59 <bolli> because you have to worry about diverting water flow etc
07:57:04 <andythenorth> who gives a crap :D
07:57:19 <andythenorth> add it to the list of problems wrt reality ;)
07:57:25 <andythenorth> (1) the world is not made of pixels
07:57:39 <andythenorth> * everyone knows that the world is made of voxels
07:57:55 <andythenorth> Todo: implement OpenTTD in voxels
07:58:49 <Terkhen> andythenorth: as I said, I agree on the lock case
07:58:56 <Terkhen> I'm asking about the general case
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07:59:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: general case I don't have such strong feelings about ;)
07:59:26 <Alberth> moin Terkhen, andythenorth
07:59:27 <andythenorth> canal suddenly gets very much more expensive
07:59:33 <andythenorth> unexpected when building ;)
08:02:25 * andythenorth was nearly very grumpy there
08:02:32 <andythenorth> who gives a fuck about realism :P :)
08:03:20 <Terkhen> it's just that I don't see that happening very frequently
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08:10:23 <Supercheese> All sea-level water is classified as "ocean", yes?
08:11:52 <Supercheese> Small bodies of sea-level water can be "lakes"?
08:12:07 <Supercheese> or sea-level canals
08:12:11 <Supercheese> naturally would be canals
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08:16:06 <andythenorth> it's interesting with canal / ocean speed fraction in FISH 2
08:16:18 <Supercheese> Hence my interest ;)
08:16:45 <andythenorth> some maps have lots of small bits of ocean, with useful rivers / or can be connected by canals
08:16:55 <andythenorth> but then the river boats are inefficient on those routes
08:17:13 <Supercheese> The new ships' dependency on [un]loaded state for speed means they travel faster than the purchase window speed when unloaded
08:17:27 <Supercheese> IIRC you have a factor of 1.2 or so for some ships when unloaded
08:17:58 <Supercheese> too lazy to pull up yer config file :P
08:18:16 <Alberth> Supercheese: I am to blame for that :)
08:18:45 <Supercheese> It is an excellent feature; I thank you
08:18:56 <Alberth> it seemed nice to have them travel a bit faster when unloaded
08:19:17 <Alberth> Supercheese: andy did all the work, I just made the suggestion
08:19:23 <Supercheese> Indeed, just a tad awkward to have the purchase menu speed be somewhere between loaded and unloaded, but a minor gripe
08:19:31 <Supercheese> well, then let the "you" be a general one ;)
08:20:04 <Supercheese> Of course the best feature is autorefit
08:20:49 <Supercheese> no more having to send them to a depot to pick up food from the fishing harbor
08:20:56 <Supercheese> a depot to refit*
08:21:33 <Terkhen> autorefit is awesome :)
08:22:25 <Supercheese> Darn, no UKRS wagons can carry both bauxite and metal (in 1916, at least)
08:23:00 <Supercheese> doubtful any set would have that universal of a wagon, though
08:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the earöy DBSet wagons should have that
08:26:33 <Supercheese> terrible top speed though, I'd bet
08:27:11 <Supercheese> I'll just have to run separate trains
08:27:18 <Supercheese> could be worse :P
08:29:16 <Supercheese> Whoah, since when can you build a signal on a tile occupied by a train?
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08:37:12 <Terkhen> since a few months ago IIRC
08:38:05 <Supercheese> very cool; but I am now needing sleep
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09:08:02 <SquireJames> Yummy breakfast of boiled eggs. Finally learned how to reliably cook them
09:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "i already boiled these eggs for half an hour, and they won't go soft!"?
09:29:46 <Rubidium> they might still be soft
09:29:58 <Rubidium> well, or hard and get soft again when removing them
09:32:58 <Rubidium> (but then you haven't boiled it in water at sea level pressure)
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10:00:16 <andythenorth> my laptop died :(
10:00:26 <andythenorth> think it's eaten it's SATA bus somehow
10:00:37 <andythenorth> on the plus side
10:00:41 <andythenorth> faster laptop soon
10:01:15 <andythenorth> on the minus side, lost some work :P
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10:03:02 <andythenorth> on the plus side, put the drive in my wife's laptop, everything works
10:03:13 <andythenorth> on the minus side, had to go and buy screwdrivers
10:03:27 * andythenorth is thinking up plus and minus examples :P
10:03:47 <andythenorth> on the plus side, can collect new laptop in one hour
10:04:01 <andythenorth> on the minus side, I have to go to PC World :P
10:05:23 <andythenorth> bonjour frosch123
10:05:36 <andythenorth> anyway, so GS idea:
10:06:23 <andythenorth> The following five cities want to embrace electricity [names]
10:07:16 <andythenorth> You have an opportunity to prove yourself as a tycoon in the brave new world of electricity supply
10:07:25 <andythenorth> You will need to build Power Stations for each city, and transport coal to them
10:07:58 <andythenorth> For bronze, build all 5 power stations and transport 1,000t per month to them by 1940
10:08:11 <andythenorth> For silver, same bronze, but transport 2,000t per month
10:08:26 <andythenorth> For gold, complete the silver goal by 1930
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10:14:13 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds good for a start
10:14:56 <Eddi|zuHause> but how do you detect what constitutes a power station, with NewGRFs and all?
10:16:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and that is the interesting question
10:16:49 <andythenorth> previously trying to figure out GS / newgrf has just caused me to be pissed off :)
10:16:59 <andythenorth> but now I have actually played GS and read some code :)
10:17:04 <andythenorth> and can think up cases
10:17:24 <andythenorth> I think this would be a GS tied to certain newgrfs
10:17:32 <andythenorth> I think the author has to maintain a table of IDs
10:17:50 <andythenorth> if we see a pattern for what GS needs, we can provide it in newgrf
10:18:08 * andythenorth has to go get new laptop :P
10:20:16 <Terkhen> andy's old power plant obsession
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11:14:08 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: find the industry that produces batteries :p
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11:31:47 <bolli> Sorry, but i've got another question...
11:32:06 <bolli> Is there a max sprite size for the depots?
11:32:28 <bolli> I have a 2 car train that looks fine in the depot, however it becomes pushed up together in the depot...
11:38:03 <Alberth> don't be sorry for asking a question
11:38:33 <bolli> ok :). I just don't like flooding places with beginner questions
11:39:19 <Alberth> as for the question itself, it does not make sense to me: "...looks fine in the depot" but " ...becomes pushed up together in the depot"
11:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> bolli: there's a "compression" from 32px to 28px in depots, which you can turn off by a misc flag in your grf
11:39:58 <Alberth> but I am the wrong person to answer it, if it is about sprites
11:40:12 <bolli> Any idea what the flag is?
11:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the 32px depot flag :)
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11:46:29 <bolli1> so that goes in the misc_flags bitmask?
11:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no need to handle bitmasks in nml
11:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> simply "train_width_32_px = 1;"
11:47:04 <SquireJames> Does anyone have a binary laying around that supports NML, has daylength settings and cargodist?
11:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> anywhere in your GRF
11:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: i think you ask a very wrong question
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11:48:57 <andythenorth> my old OS won't boot this laptop
11:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: OpenTTD does not "support NML". it never comes in contact with it
11:49:26 <andythenorth> Snow Leopard is only two major versions behind, what's the big deal :P
11:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: same way a car never comes in contact with "raw oil"
11:49:48 <SquireJames> Alright, well a version that supports GRF coded in it
11:49:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: Apple is not making sales to you, I'd guess
11:50:13 <SquireJames> For example, I can't run the latest UKRS2 and FIRS on Chills Patchpack
11:50:19 <SquireJames> Which is a bummer
11:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: you possibly mean "GRF v8"/"Container v32"
11:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: in that case, there are CargoDist builds, but you have to patch in daylength by yourself
11:51:35 <Alberth> or start a squire patchpack :p
11:51:47 <andythenorth> block level copy of my SSD is *way* faster than incremental
11:51:47 * andythenorth should probably go hang out in #upgradinglaptopstoday
11:51:58 <andythenorth> there will be complaining today
11:52:11 <andythenorth> some of my tools will be broken :(
11:52:29 <andythenorth> I face a world of python 2.4 pain too I think :P
11:52:44 <SquireJames> Well Albert, i'd LOVE to :)
11:53:02 <SquireJames> But neither TortoiseSVN nor the alternative seem to like me very much
11:53:40 <SquireJames> I think i;ve compiled 1 successful build myself, all others seem to fail, which I am figuring is because I am trying to weld two incompatible patches together
11:53:42 <Alberth> you don't want to use SVN tools in the first place
11:53:58 <SquireJames> So short of learning code and finding out why they won't mesh, I'm a bit stuck
11:54:35 <Alberth> yeah, you have to understand the code for patching
11:54:58 <SquireJames> I guess an alternative is to get the CargoDist patch, and then find out which bit of the regular code alters daylength
11:55:12 <SquireJames> and set it to a fixed number, say daylength 3 (which works well enough for me)
11:55:29 <SquireJames> Not as flexible as properly combining the patches, but for a quick and dirty fix, it works
11:56:02 <Alberth> I never tried doing much patching of outdated version
11:56:46 <SquireJames> I guess my issue is that I find the game goes too fast for me, and for UKRS2 to update liveries properly :)
11:57:19 <andythenorth> maybe 2 hours to clone this SSD
11:57:31 * andythenorth should play a game of MP NoCargoGoal whilst waiting
11:57:41 <andythenorth> at least the keyboard on this one isn't rubbish
12:00:49 <andythenorth> so GS + newgrf industry....
12:00:50 <Alberth> I am somewhat wondering whether you could solve this in the newgrf domain, by stretching the model life time by factor 3 or so
12:01:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: I don't see why just faking the date wouldn't work :P
12:01:23 * andythenorth assumes there's a date function somewhere
12:01:26 <andythenorth> just tell it to lie
12:01:50 <andythenorth> instead of "return date", use "return date / 4" :P
12:02:00 <andythenorth> "return date / some factor"
12:02:16 <Alberth> that won't do, there is a lot of "daily" or "monthly" stuff going around
12:02:21 <SquireJames> Allow me to explain :)
12:02:41 <SquireJames> UKRS2 locos change livery to all-over black from 1940-1946
12:02:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: only lie to newgrf
12:02:57 <andythenorth> I doubt it's that simple
12:03:07 <andythenorth> lots of date stuff is action 0 stuff I guess
12:03:12 <SquireJames> It seems Pikka uses a random chance thingy that every time a train goes into a depot during this time, it might repaint
12:03:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: 8/9 times a month deliveries breaks already
12:03:34 <SquireJames> However, the game goes so fast that hardly any of my locomotives are repainted by the time 1946 wings around
12:04:02 <andythenorth> just define that months are ~60 days long :P
12:04:36 * andythenorth wonders if nml could do the lying
12:04:40 <andythenorth> for newgrfs at least
12:04:59 <Alberth> SquireJames: if you have true day-length, that would still be the case
12:04:59 <andythenorth> it must be parsing/lexing dates
12:05:37 <andythenorth> you'd just have to wait longer to get annoyed by it :P
12:06:07 <SquireJames> Well, I set my repair intervals to half the period, but with twice the daylength
12:06:23 <andythenorth> sounds very complicated
12:06:33 <SquireJames> ergo, they visit the depots the same number of times, but the timescale between 1940 and 1946 is twice as long
12:06:34 <andythenorth> if you want train sets, have you tried Hornby? :)
12:06:41 <Alberth> half the period would be sufficient, wouldn't it?
12:06:59 <SquireJames> Not really, then they are visiting the depot all the time
12:07:27 <andythenorth> SquireJames: just decompile the grf and change it?
12:07:49 <SquireJames> Why? 1940 - 1946 for wartime black is correct
12:08:03 <andythenorth> I don't understand the issue in that case :)
12:08:06 <andythenorth> what's the issue? :)
12:08:10 <SquireJames> Alright let me try again
12:08:36 <SquireJames> The game runs too quickly, so trains do not visit the depot frequently enough for them all (or the majority) to be painted in time
12:08:54 <SquireJames> this also occurs for other livery changes, but this is the main on since it's the shortest time period
12:09:20 <andythenorth> so 6 years is ~80 mis
12:09:21 <SquireJames> If I increase the frequency, trains are visiting depots too much, which causes routing issues etc
12:09:41 <andythenorth> so you want those 6 years to take ~240 mins or so?
12:09:58 <andythenorth> with train speed etc unaffected
12:10:04 <andythenorth> or just everything runs slower?
12:10:08 <SquireJames> So that the trains can visit depots at the same frequency, but they have twice the time to do so, roughly
12:10:32 <andythenorth> you'd make 3x the money in that time
12:10:33 <SquireJames> Well industry and town passenger generation is unimportant, i'm happy either way
12:10:53 <andythenorth> SquireJames: you should try eddi's awesome day length patch
12:11:04 <andythenorth> at the end of each year, it simply resets the date n times
12:11:09 <andythenorth> so if you have 3:1
12:11:15 <andythenorth> you'd get 1940 3 three times
12:11:18 <SquireJames> Well I am running a daylength patch currently, unsure which one
12:11:37 <andythenorth> don't blame eddi for the stupidity of the idea, it was my mine, but he patched for it
12:11:37 <SquireJames> but I find my way of playing the game benefits greatly from CargoDist
12:11:59 <andythenorth> the patch makes vehicle availability a bit interesting iirc
12:13:17 <SquireJames> So you see my quandry. CargoDist makes the game interesting, but it goes too quick. Daylength slows it down nicely, but I don't get the benefits of CargoDist
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12:15:01 <andythenorth> I'd just play NoCargoGoal for 20 years and stop worrying about this stuff :)
12:15:13 <andythenorth> I find that worrying about the game takes the fun away :
12:16:00 <andythenorth> cargo routing, economy, payment models, day length etc are all just a bit boring to fix
12:16:20 <andythenorth> same for road types, new airports, new map etc
12:16:40 <andythenorth> nobody is interested enough in these problems, they're kind of tedious :D
12:17:00 <andythenorth> otoh, configurable vehicle smoke for newgrfs is *very* important ;)
12:17:18 <andythenorth> and also writing more GS
12:18:25 * andythenorth wonders how dope wars could be implemented in openttd
12:18:56 <TrueBrain> you going there? really? :P
12:19:42 <SquireJames> well my GS is coming along nicely. Would work better with longer daylengths though :P
12:19:54 <Kjetil> Let's implement syndicate instead, so you can blow up your oponents stations
12:20:17 <SquireJames> persuadutron their passengers :)
12:21:16 <andythenorth> Dope Wars is probably too turn-based for a GS :P
12:21:28 <TrueBrain> selling dope by trains
12:21:30 <TrueBrain> that would be new :)
12:21:38 <andythenorth> you delivered 3,000t of Cocaine
12:21:44 <andythenorth> everyone is dead
12:21:52 <SquireJames> New cargo for the subtropical climate :P
12:22:09 <Kjetil> So if you deliver goods at town grows, if you deliver dope the town shrinks ?
12:22:10 <andythenorth> 20% of my SSD copied :(
12:22:39 <SquireJames> To that same end, Soylent Green factories...
12:22:40 <andythenorth> construction camp: requires PAX, food, women, hard licquour, drugs
12:22:49 <Kjetil> So you can finally be rid of those annoying towns in the middle of the transmap railway
12:22:55 <andythenorth> soylent green is my new godwin's law on this channel
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12:24:21 <SquireJames> So, killing people with drugs = okay, killing people for food = bad. Okay glad we've got your morale compass sorted...
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12:36:00 <SquireJames> Gone all quiet hasn;t it
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12:57:44 <frosch123> question of the day:
12:57:53 <frosch123> ottd error boxes are red
12:58:08 <frosch123> according to what rules are the caption or the text inside the box white or yellow?
12:58:29 <frosch123> (i think there exist all 4 combinations of yellow/white caption/text)
12:59:06 <frosch123> (some confirmation boxes like "exit game" also follow this colour scheme)
12:59:34 <andythenorth> the rules are 'whoever wrote that code chose'? :P
13:00:06 <andythenorth> also I need to know if ottd works in OS X 10.7 anyway :(
13:01:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: People keep reporting bugs with it, so it must work to some extent :P
13:02:00 <frosch123> the rule is: don't go fullscreen or something like that
13:02:02 <andythenorth> I suspect forthcoming sadness :(
13:02:08 <andythenorth> I rely on fullscreen
13:02:23 <FLHerne> Someone (r) should make OTTD GPU-accelerated :P
13:02:35 * FLHerne just got a new one ;-)
13:02:46 <frosch123> multiple people already succeeded in making ottd cpu-decelerated
13:06:04 <SquireJames> GPU decelerated is the Mac version :P where every upgrade makes it gradually go slower
13:06:44 <SquireJames> However, deceleration does not exist as an action. My physics teacher would have a fit hearing you say that :P
13:06:47 <andythenorth> can't get to my OpenTTD stuff right now
13:06:59 <andythenorth> no permissions :(
13:07:26 <SquireJames> I remember back during the bad old days of my GCSEs how many times we got that beaten into our heads
13:07:51 <andythenorth> glx: currently yes
13:08:13 <glx> so the OS doesn't want you to try openttd ?
13:08:59 <andythenorth> mostly the issue is I don't have any base sets
13:09:18 <andythenorth> they're in a user dir on my previous HD
13:09:25 <andythenorth> and I don't have permissions to read that
13:13:11 <Rubidium> andythenorth: if only someone coded a feature to automatically give the ability to download the base sets when they are missing
13:15:13 <andythenorth> *if only it worked with my OS :P
13:15:51 <andythenorth> I suspect that Big Brother is going to make me upgrade this disk straight from 10.6.8 to to 10.8
13:15:59 <andythenorth> does OpenTTD work at all in 10.8?
13:17:10 <andythenorth> and how about on OS X :P
13:17:41 * andythenorth stares into a future that contains a Windows installation
13:17:52 <andythenorth> which is a horrible though
13:17:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: why? ottd also fails on windows :p
13:18:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Linux! :D
13:18:03 <BenTrein> andythenorth - there's no need to fall that deep! Linux does very well.
13:18:11 <BenTrein> I've not had a crash in a long long time.
13:18:30 <andythenorth> is there a linux distro that makes sense yet?
13:18:42 * FLHerne is a Linux Mint KDE fan :-)
13:18:44 <BenTrein> Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, Suse...
13:18:54 <andythenorth> I see them various distress used by other people and they're completely confusing
13:19:01 <andythenorth> distros / distress /s
13:19:07 <BenTrein> But to me a Mac is completely confusing.
13:19:13 <BenTrein> It is all about what you're used to.
13:19:18 <andythenorth> and to me swahili is confusing
13:19:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you want others to decide what you use, you should stick with osx :p
13:19:32 <BenTrein> Sure , there's a learning curve. Sure, you have to learn a couple of things. Is that so bad?
13:19:47 <planetmaker> for me the future will hold at least one linux install more. Hopefully next week :-)
13:19:55 <andythenorth> I have zero interest in learning new computer things
13:20:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Linux has more in common with OSX than Windows does, anyway :P
13:20:28 <FLHerne> Also, it's easier to configure it to behave in an OSX-like way :-)
13:20:36 <frosch123> BenTrein: if andy has options, he changes his opinion twice a day... so he won't be able to do anything but install all distros in alternating order
13:20:37 <planetmaker> yes, linux and osx have loads of things in common. If you like the command line, andy, linux is your friend
13:20:54 <andythenorth> I like not having to think about computer crap :P
13:21:08 <BenTrein> I don't think about computer crap anymore.
13:21:25 <Alberth> playing openttd is much more interesting!
13:21:32 <BenTrein> Of course I did in the beginning of using Linux. But I now know what to do and how to.
13:21:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get a generally stable distro with decent default settings then :P
13:21:59 <frosch123> BenTrein: like "never install gnome 3"? :p
13:22:10 <andythenorth> all I need is a distro in a virtual appliance or such
13:22:14 <BenTrein> I absolutely LOVE Gnome 3
13:22:16 <andythenorth> I don't want any window manager crap
13:22:18 <FLHerne> frosch123: :D . Also Unity :P
13:22:30 <andythenorth> all window managers are shocking, the linux ones nearly as bad as Windows
13:22:46 <andythenorth> all that zooming liquid blobby crap everywhere
13:22:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: use a tiling wm :)
13:22:59 <andythenorth> 'omg we can shake the window when you move it'
13:23:04 <andythenorth> that can piss off :P
13:23:07 <frosch123> tiling wm are impressive, i'm just too stupid to use one
13:23:16 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Openbox can work as a window manager for most DEs :P
13:23:22 <andythenorth> I just need an appliance to run opened I think
13:23:51 <andythenorth> then I run it as a VM, with shared dir to my main OS
13:23:55 * FLHerne likes wobbly, semi-transparent, sliding stuff though :P
13:23:59 <BenTrein> Get it working on your Raspberry Pi and you're good to go, I guess. :D
13:24:00 <frosch123> andy needs a vendor-locked-in device, which allows him to do nothing but make newgrfs :p
13:24:38 <andythenorth> lock down an android thing
13:24:43 <andythenorth> I saw a 7" tablet yesterday
13:24:44 <frosch123> anyone here wants to step up as "opad" producer?
13:24:45 <andythenorth> that's pointless
13:25:04 <frosch123> opad would be 23" tablet
13:25:15 <andythenorth> 800x600 res though?
13:25:21 <frosch123> you can put it on the wall while not using it
13:25:56 <andythenorth> can we solve GS and newgrf please [while I am waiting to get a usable OS]
13:26:00 <frosch123> what picture on the wall would be more impressive than a moving railnetwork?
13:26:11 <andythenorth> each pixel would be about 2cm
13:26:15 <Terkhen> the joys of linux, I hate gnome 3 but you have always options :P
13:26:21 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what is "GS and newgrf"?
13:26:38 <andythenorth> GS should be able to do stuff wrt newgrf
13:27:00 <andythenorth> (1) GS should have unlimited money, or zero construction costs. Why doesn't it?
13:27:47 <Terkhen> that's unrelated to NewGRFs... IIRC there were some good reasons to leave that out but I don't know/remember them
13:27:58 <andythenorth> simply dump all base costs to 0 while GS is running, then restore them
13:28:21 <andythenorth> allow GS to manipulate base costs, let authors do it themselves
13:28:28 <Terkhen> I don't think it was an implementation problem
13:28:32 <Terkhen> implementation problems are easy :)
13:28:37 <andythenorth> oh we're concerned about people doing bad things?
13:28:44 <andythenorth> just don't play openttd with idiots ;)
13:29:00 <Terkhen> no idea, you will have to ask someone else about the reasons, I don't trust my memory at all :)
13:29:07 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ^^ etc
13:29:16 <frosch123> i would love to see ais use scp to team up against the human players
13:29:36 <andythenorth> tl;dr: why can't GS have unlimited money / zero costs?
13:29:48 <TrueBrain> but sadly, the question is invalid
13:30:23 <TrueBrain> I have to counter it with a question: when doesn the GS have unlimited money?
13:30:37 <andythenorth> when Zuu tells me it doesn't (unless it has an AI to steal from)
13:30:47 <andythenorth> do I need to test for myself instead of accepting wisdom of others? :P
13:30:59 <TrueBrain> well, when do you think it doesn have unlimited money?
13:31:09 <andythenorth> constructing industry
13:31:33 * andythenorth predicts a circular conversation next ;)
13:32:23 <andythenorth> maybe when I get my OS back, I should try writing GS :P
13:32:44 <TrueBrain> can a GS build an industry?
13:32:51 <andythenorth> it should be able to though
13:33:01 <andythenorth> I heard rumour of a spec somewhere :P
13:33:04 <TrueBrain> but then your question before is kinda mute :P
13:33:44 <TrueBrain> and .. it can only be done by GS
13:33:48 <TrueBrain> only via the DEITY company
13:33:48 <andythenorth> GS has loads of industry stuf
13:33:58 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't know who would hav eto pay for it :P
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13:34:06 <andythenorth> number of stations is interesting
13:34:19 <TrueBrain> basically, andythenorth, the GS doesn't have any money
13:34:26 <andythenorth> also GetIndustryType is interesting
13:34:30 <TrueBrain> in some corner cases, it is a OWNER_DEITY
13:34:38 <andythenorth> that works for me
13:34:39 <TrueBrain> which doesn't require any money
13:34:49 <TrueBrain> there is one other case, where a GS executes stuff for a company
13:34:58 <TrueBrain> but then the only logic thing would be, that it costs the company the money
13:35:34 <andythenorth> where's the stuff for how much cargo delivered
13:35:52 <frosch123> gs should be able to spawn disaster vehicles
13:35:52 <TrueBrain> so when you talk about: why can't GS have unlimited money, I can only say: there is no case it needs ANY money
13:35:59 <TrueBrain> so the question sad enough is not valid :) Sry :)
13:36:00 <frosch123> and send a fleet of 100 ufos after your vehicles
13:36:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it can :)
13:36:10 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: good answer :)
13:36:28 * andythenorth wants GS to be able to build a bunch of stuff right after map gen
13:37:28 <andythenorth> GS has bridge stuff :o
13:37:38 <andythenorth> so we could write a BridgeToNoGoWhere?
13:37:45 <andythenorth> as a challenge GS?
13:37:47 <TrueBrain> it can evenput down roads, free, unlimited :P
13:37:58 <andythenorth> For Gold medal: build highest bridge
13:38:32 <andythenorth> can GS remove bridges of *my* company
13:38:42 <TrueBrain> for a cost, possibly
13:39:35 <SquireJames> Does your idea involve a tay bridge situation Andy?
13:39:36 <andythenorth> cost to me? Or cost to the GS-which-has-no-money?
13:39:44 <TrueBrain> a GS can switch to a company
13:39:50 <TrueBrain> and execute certain commands
13:39:54 <TrueBrain> on behave of that company
13:40:09 <TrueBrain> not sure if destroying bridges is part of that, but most likely
13:40:23 <andythenorth> there is a severe under-exploitation of GS possibilities… ;/
13:40:34 <TrueBrain> that domain is very large :D
13:40:36 <andythenorth> will I be learning squirrel then :P
13:41:22 <Terkhen> andythenorth: see? I was right in not trusting my memory :)
13:42:19 <andythenorth> awarding exclusive rights is interesting
13:42:29 <andythenorth> also setting town rating none
13:42:29 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: you are partly right; often we talked about if a GS should be able to do stuff on behave of a company for free
13:42:38 <TrueBrain> the answer always came down to: no, it should cost like it costs an AI
13:43:09 <andythenorth> can't see a FoundTown function or such
13:44:04 <TrueBrain> changing town ratings is an interesting one btw
13:44:12 <TrueBrain> dunno if that is possible, but that could be really useful tbh
13:44:34 <andythenorth> think there's a method for it if I read correctly
13:44:48 <andythenorth> GS is too slow to respond every time a user tries to build something?
13:44:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: to give a bit more insight on talks about what GS can and shouldn't do: I personally am always very worried people start writing AIs in GS scripts, because it can cheat
13:45:08 <TrueBrain> we talked for a long time about stuff like BuildVehicle, for example
13:45:13 <TrueBrain> it is open for a lot of abuse
13:45:25 <andythenorth> nice problem to have :)
13:45:46 <TrueBrain> it is hard to make a line .. what a GS should and shouldn't be doing
13:45:53 <andythenorth> anyway, I don't think the lack of GS is due to lack of capability
13:46:01 <andythenorth> GS should be mostly simple anyway
13:46:16 <andythenorth> the stuff I am most searching for in the spec is to do with setting up map
13:46:26 <andythenorth> I don't want to be stuck on specific scenario with specific newgrfs
13:46:39 <andythenorth> I want GS to be able to place towns, industries, objects etc
13:46:54 <Terkhen> andythenorth: there is no need to do that
13:47:03 <Terkhen> when/if the new scenario format is complete
13:47:08 <Terkhen> you could rely in external tools to do that
13:48:04 <Terkhen> the format is just a bunch of png layers and text files
13:48:15 <Terkhen> bundled in a single tar
13:49:15 <andythenorth> is it done yet? :)
13:49:47 <Terkhen> where yes means that it has a spec :)
13:50:00 <frosch123> it's done as is everyone is fed up with it?
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13:53:01 <Fremen> hm fraps doesn't recognize openttd as a game
14:18:38 <Fremen> how can I autmatically place signals like every 4 squares instead of every square?
14:19:12 <frosch123> open the signal gui
14:19:34 <frosch123> ctrl+drag it in the direction you want to
14:19:56 <Fremen> didn't see those arrows
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14:27:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: can we kick cia and make dorpsgek announce stuff in here? my ego hurts if my features receive not enough praising :p
14:29:51 <TrueBrain> just I have no clue how to get CIA out :P
14:30:04 <frosch123> stop sending mails :p
14:30:25 <frosch123> well, double annoucment does not hurt to much
14:30:42 <TrueBrain> hmm, I see it also still sends to a maillist
14:30:45 <TrueBrain> does that still work? :P
14:30:59 <TrueBrain> exactly my question :P
14:31:25 <frosch123> there was a maillist in 2007, but it was about patches, not about commits
14:31:36 <TrueBrain> before that we already had a commit maillist
14:31:38 <TrueBrain> for a long long time
14:31:48 <frosch123> ah, yay, my daily delivery failure mails just arrived :s
14:32:27 <TrueBrain> maillist still seems to be operations
14:32:40 <frosch123> oh wait, it now immediately says "delivery failure", not just after 24 hours
14:32:47 <frosch123> so, does that mean they actively deny the mails now?
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14:33:02 <TrueBrain> glx: do you still receive those emails?
14:35:57 <frosch123> hmm, cia website does not look exactly maintained
14:36:06 <frosch123> everything says 2007 or 2009
14:36:14 <SquireJames> thats government cut backs for you
14:36:24 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is activelly worked on
14:36:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24483 /trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt: -Fix: remove ZERO WIDTH SPACE character from Dutch strings causing the fallback font to be chosen over the sprite font
14:36:58 <TrueBrain> okay, so it is still working
14:37:01 <frosch123> oh, dear, will we now get a flood?
14:37:02 <TrueBrain> we just had an old old old old email address
14:37:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24484 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt luxembourgish.txt):
14:37:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:37:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 4 changes by telk5093
14:37:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 19 changes by Phreeze
14:37:16 <Terkhen> it's just 15 commits :P
14:37:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24485 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: Clarify description of command line option -n
14:37:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24486 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
14:37:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:37:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 15 changes by ricardoespsanto
14:37:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24487 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange [FS#5236]: make several DoesContentExist return the path instead of a boolean (LordAro)
14:37:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24488 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Feature [FS#5236]: add buttons to view textfiles from the online content window (LordAro)
14:37:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: zuu * r24489 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Feature [FS#5230]: Display GS dead state in AI debug window.
14:37:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24490 /trunk/src/script/api/game/game_window.hpp.sq: -Fix (r24487): forgot to run script/api/squirrel_export.sh
14:37:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24491 /trunk/src/ (fios.h network/core/tcp_content.cpp): -Fix: compilation error with networking disabled
14:37:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24492 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoGo] Useful behaviour for GSEngine::IsValidEngine and GSEngine::IsBuildable when outside GSCompanyMode scope.
14:37:58 <Terkhen> just to give it some visibility
14:37:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24493 /trunk/src/script/api/game_changelog.hpp: -Doc: Update GS changelog.
14:38:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24494 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Update: Some documentation.
14:38:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24495 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
14:38:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:38:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 9 changes by Phreeze
14:38:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24496 /trunk/src/base_media_func.h: -Fix [FS#5276]: Make sure all template functions are instantiated by at least one compilation unit.
14:38:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24497 /trunk/src/economy.cpp:
14:38:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature [FS#5106]: When using autorefit only load/refit vehicles if other
14:38:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: wagons cannot already take all cargo without refitting. This way the consist
14:38:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: preserves its refit potential as long as possible, in case other cargo arrives
14:38:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: at the station.
14:38:30 <TrueBrain> CIA moved to a new domain years ago
14:38:36 <frosch123> wow, how did it manage to process them all in order?
14:38:36 <TrueBrain> but we never upated the email address
14:38:42 <TrueBrain> seems that last week the old domain stopped working :P
14:38:43 <frosch123> usually it switches them up
14:38:51 <TrueBrain> frosch123: because I ran the command one by one
14:40:12 <TrueBrain> which ever makes you happy :)
14:40:28 <bolli> Argh. Its raining so hard, our road is now a river :|
14:41:39 <TrueBrain> so, that problem solved too :)
14:42:03 <andythenorth> need to put the screws back in this laptop case :P
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14:50:41 <glx> [16:33:08] <TrueBrain> glx: do you still receive those emails? <-- svn openttd.org emails ? yes
14:50:57 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
14:51:16 * andythenorth can see a future containing much reinstalling
14:51:48 <glx> and there were no commits yesterday :)
14:52:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: use a virtual machine for test installs
14:52:55 <frosch123> don't mess up your main machine before you know you want to :)
14:52:57 <andythenorth> first I need an OS on my SSD that will actually boot this box
14:53:04 <andythenorth> instead of beeping at me
14:53:23 * FLHerne gets driven crazy by graphics drivers
14:54:08 <andythenorth> I can't get 10.7 from Apple online
14:54:22 <andythenorth> I don't have any DVDs here
14:54:27 <andythenorth> nor firewire cables
14:54:35 <andythenorth> nor any install OS DVDs
14:54:42 <andythenorth> only one external case and 4 macs
14:54:57 <frosch123> at least you can make a warm fire then :)
14:55:07 <FLHerne> I can either have a low-res/unaccelerated driver that works, or an accelerated one that doesn't support KMS and causes hideous display artifacts
14:55:19 <andythenorth> I should just drive 1 hour and go fix this in the office :P
14:55:29 <andythenorth> "don't go on holiday"
14:55:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get a USB stick?
14:55:40 <planetmaker> meh. People start to send me all kind of nml questions via pm. Time to not be so kind anymore and reply extensively but refer to forums
14:56:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you want a copy of the flame DaleStan gave me for asking him a question via pm?
14:56:27 <planetmaker> he has a very pointy way of writing :-D
14:56:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: don't go on holiday within reach 1 hour reach of work :)
14:57:31 <andythenorth> oh, those were the fun times of learning in nfo, 2008
14:57:35 <andythenorth> much has changed since then
14:58:24 <frosch123> he, i also wrote a pm to dalestan in 2007 asking about nfo stuff :p
14:58:37 <frosch123> his fault to put "nfo coding consultant" into the sig :)
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14:58:50 <planetmaker> I'm afraid it's wally whom I refer to forums. But it's quoting my forum reply... asking about it. So why not go on there where it's even on-topic?
14:58:59 <frosch123> at least i felt invited to send pms :p
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15:02:08 <frosch123> oh, he removed that line from his signature?
15:02:12 <frosch123> i wonder when he did that
15:03:25 <TrueBrain> I can imagine minutes after your pm :P
15:06:52 <andythenorth> so is anyone coding my "Power Grid" GS then?
15:07:00 <andythenorth> ideally I would have an army of coders
15:07:09 <andythenorth> I'd be the "ideas guy"
15:07:17 <andythenorth> we can split the profits 50:50
15:08:20 <TrueBrain> or put it on servers only
15:08:25 <TrueBrain> where you can buy a ticket
15:08:38 <TrueBrain> wait, Valve already did that with their latest TF2 extension ....
15:08:46 <andythenorth> how much is that server guy wanting?
15:08:47 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i think we are closer to that than you might think...
15:09:04 <TrueBrain> like I said, Valve does it with TF2
15:09:18 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i meant wrt. ottd :o
15:09:19 <TrueBrain> you can play on servers for free, but if you want to play on special servers (what-ever it might be) it costs you 74 eurocents
15:09:30 <andythenorth> this OS is all slidey and zoomy
15:09:39 <TrueBrain> frosch123: why would anyone want to pay for OpenTTD related anything?
15:09:44 * andythenorth is sweary today, sorry
15:09:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: to play on a server with a special gs
15:10:41 <TrueBrain> hihi, we should make that all GS scripts change OpenTTD, then GS scripts can only be released under GPL :D
15:10:48 <frosch123> you pay 1€, then the servers spawns a company for you and sends you the password to join
15:11:03 <TrueBrain> marketing-wise, not a bad concept
15:11:19 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what's the point? ottd is not agpl
15:11:33 <TrueBrain> frosch123: next, we change the license to a CC-no-commercial
15:12:44 <TrueBrain> what always bumps me out, is when servers charge money for access (fine, I don't like it, but what can you do), but don't send any of those earnings upstream to those who supplied the game itself for free
15:13:47 <TrueBrain> (you start to see that more and more with Minecraft, for example)
15:14:48 <frosch123> well, money does not help oss :p
15:14:52 <frosch123> so, better keep it :)
15:15:14 <TrueBrain> then donate it to some .. shit, what is the english word
15:15:26 <TrueBrain> you are Dutch or you aren't
15:15:31 <andythenorth> we need money for prizes :)
15:15:33 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Which OS is 'slidey and zoomy'?
15:15:41 <andythenorth> some crappy OS X
15:15:54 <andythenorth> nothing stays still
15:16:03 <andythenorth> and I can't turn off the damn trackpad scroll and swipe crap
15:16:16 <andythenorth> everything is moving all the time
15:16:35 <andythenorth> if I wanted to watch animations, Tom & Jerry is probably on YT
15:16:43 * andythenorth is severely grumpy today
15:17:37 <andythenorth> my god they broke the calendar too
15:17:45 <andythenorth> and the address book
15:18:37 <andythenorth> previously having things the Apple way was the price you paid for the fact that Steve Jobs was the only person in computing with taste
15:18:53 <andythenorth> now it's all just screwed
15:19:07 * andythenorth considers giving up the interwebs
15:19:31 <SquireJames> Is there a kind soul here who might help me debug my script again?
15:20:25 <SquireJames> I have it working (well not crashing) but it steadfastly refuses to do as it is told
15:20:57 <SquireJames> It's supposed to make a test window appear on January 5th 1925. It won't. Nothing appears
15:21:21 <TrueBrain> its funny .. scripts only do what you tell them to do :D So I am guessing you don't want your script to do as it is told? :) (going all Freud on you now :P)
15:22:06 <SquireJames> I'm aware of that :P a better term would be "I am telling it to do the wrong thing, but not sure exactly how what I am telling it differs from what I want to tell it"
15:22:10 <Alberth> SquireJames: if you want help, pastebin the script, so we can have a look.
15:22:28 <TrueBrain> no, his name is Alberth, not Wilco
15:22:28 <SquireJames> copy paste here then right?
15:22:34 <Alberth> SquireJames: talking about "it does not work" gives so few cluea about what is actually wrong
15:23:02 <SquireJames> Again I am aware of that, but there is little else I can say other than that a window is supposed to appear and doesn't
15:23:04 <Alberth> paste.openttdcoop.org <-- eg
15:23:50 <roboboy> Why isn't that subdomain mentioned in the topic?:P
15:24:03 <TrueBrain> because it is not on the domain?
15:24:18 <Alberth> SquireJames: url please
15:24:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you had KDE, you could just turn off all the eyecandy ;-):P
15:25:09 <Alberth> SquireJames: shouldn't you start a function body at line 2 ?
15:25:47 <SquireJames> Zuu provided the code, in order to get it to load without crashing, I had to move the variables from above the while loop to inside it
15:25:54 <TrueBrain> shouldn't you define locals outside the loop? :P
15:26:12 <TrueBrain> hehe, one piece of advise: randomly moving code is rarely a good thing :)
15:26:13 <SquireJames> If I define them outside, this happens:-
15:26:42 <SquireJames> "Your script made an error: the index 'fired' does not exist"
15:26:48 <Alberth> SquireJames: programming by random copy/pasting/moving code will get you nowhere
15:27:05 <Alberth> you need to understand what you are doing
15:27:14 <SquireJames> It wasn't random, It wasn't finding my variables, ergo I moved them
15:27:22 <SquireJames> and surprise, it found them
15:27:31 <TrueBrain> and surprise, it no longer does what you think it does :)
15:27:45 <SquireJames> I am not some incompetant moron randomly copying and pasting code and hoping.
15:27:59 <Alberth> nor does it work any more like Zuu intended it to
15:28:08 <SquireJames> It didnt work in the first place
15:28:18 <TrueBrain> anyway, is this your whole script SquireJames?
15:28:19 <SquireJames> Had it then we wouldn't be having this conversation
15:28:21 <TrueBrain> I am missing some essentials
15:28:32 <SquireJames> My whole script is this
15:29:22 <TrueBrain> do you have any prior experience in any programming language?
15:29:25 <TrueBrain> (asking, not judging)
15:29:44 <SquireJames> I do, a little C++ at college, visual basic at university
15:29:55 <TrueBrain> then you should be aware that if you define a function
15:29:57 <TrueBrain> you also have to call it
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15:30:05 <SquireJames> the outlay is familiar, with the static and local variables etc
15:30:05 <TrueBrain> there is no magic in the land of programming ;)
15:30:29 <TrueBrain> also, a function has a body. You create a body by creating a scope, like {}
15:30:31 <SquireJames> ah, so do I need a this. command?
15:30:38 <andythenorth> "time remaining: less than a minute" <- for about 3 minutes
15:30:48 <andythenorth> install already :(
15:30:50 <TrueBrain> that is the basic part of any programming language; I suggest yo look at the code already supplied to you :)
15:31:06 <SquireJames> The code supplied to me generates a crash
15:31:07 <Alberth> or a few working scripts
15:31:17 <SquireJames> Informing me that my variables have not been found
15:31:26 <TrueBrain> I am not going to teach you how to program, sorry :) You will have to go on the web for that :)
15:31:33 <SquireJames> I've tried moving the variable calls both inside the loop and outside the whole function
15:31:49 <SquireJames> If I leave them where Zuu put them, the program complains that it can't find them
15:33:26 <TrueBrain> its funny because it is true :D
15:33:44 <andythenorth> wtf - OS X restore magical thingy has upgraded my OS without removing all my stuff from the HD
15:33:49 <Alberth> you are missing a lot of context, I'd suggest you learn about how to make a class / class method in squirrel first, otherwise you're just doing trial and error
15:34:00 <SquireJames> Oh how I love that response
15:34:02 <andythenorth> despite that instructions said it would erase my HD
15:34:18 <TrueBrain> OSX is very good in keeping your personal data
15:34:29 <TrueBrain> I did many reinstalls of the core OS, with having all my applications still work
15:34:34 <SquireJames> I must have read five or six threads on the forum now about scripting
15:34:35 <glx> <TrueBrain> its funny because it is true :D <-- especially on vista :)
15:34:38 <SquireJames> and they all end with that
15:34:40 <andythenorth> I used to do that
15:34:47 <andythenorth> since OS X beta I have been upgrading same system
15:34:53 <SquireJames> The lovely paradox that if we knew how to do it, we wouldn't be asking
15:35:19 <andythenorth> but 10.7 OS restore implies you lose your data and have to go get it from your backups
15:35:21 <TrueBrain> SquireJames: either buy any good programming book, or learn by example; plenty of workable scripts on the Online Content service :)
15:35:25 <SquireJames> but because we ask, you (meaning scripters collectively) respond that we need to go and learn X
15:35:27 <Alberth> SquireJames: Giving you solutions doesn't bring you further, instead I give you the place to look for further information
15:35:39 <SquireJames> All said in your most condescending tones no doubt
15:35:41 <andythenorth> SquireJames: do you have a thing that prints hello world yet?
15:35:55 <andythenorth> SquireJames: have you got a squirrel interpreter installed?
15:36:07 <TrueBrain> SquireJames: if you want us to do your work for you, you came to the wrong channel, sorry :)
15:36:09 <Alberth> SquireJames: not at all, but explaining programming is not something you do in 2 lines or IRC
15:36:26 <SquireJames> TrueBrain, what I want is an explanation as to why the code supplied to me does not work
15:36:28 <andythenorth> I haven't written GS, but first thing I did was get Squirrel, and figure out hello world
15:36:31 <andythenorth> then I got bored :P
15:36:34 <SquireJames> Instead I get blamed
15:36:43 <andythenorth> where is this frisking paste?
15:36:49 <TrueBrain> it is sad that you see blame, where we see us trying to help
15:36:52 <SquireJames> I do have a hello world script that runs, you can see it in the script I pasted
15:36:53 <TrueBrain> but meh .. your loss :)
15:36:58 <andythenorth> give me the paste
15:37:06 <Alberth> SquireJames: Alberth: you are missing a lot of context, .... <-- here is why it fails
15:37:23 <SquireJames> Then perhaps the help given to me by Zuu was faulty
15:37:56 <TrueBrain> hihi, that reminds me of: if something goes wrong and you are smiling, you have someone else to blame :D
15:38:02 <Alberth> Zuu 's help was fine, he assumed you knew how to make a class/class method, which seems a proper assumption to me
15:38:12 <andythenorth> paste? Or I go continue fixing my OS instead...?
15:39:08 <andythenorth> that's jquery style
15:39:15 <SquireJames> Oddly enough this is exactly the attitude I got when trying to learn NFO many moons ago
15:39:17 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: WRT Valve's tickets for TF2, the "special servers" just give you eyecandy items when you finish a game
15:39:29 <frosch123> SquireJames: so, where do you call "FirstDate"
15:39:30 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: worth 74 eurocent?! rly? :(
15:39:32 <andythenorth> what doesn't it do?
15:39:49 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I already asked .. he wanted to know the command to do that ...
15:39:52 <andythenorth> function MainClass::FirstDate()
15:39:53 <frosch123> SquireJames: you can go on the internet to ask how to build a bicycle, but you cannot ask how to walk
15:39:57 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: it's cheap compared with other stuff they have already pulled off, they sell virtual hats for 15€
15:40:00 <andythenorth> is that valid without squiggles?
15:40:02 <Terkhen> and the people buy them
15:40:05 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: fair enough :)
15:40:13 <andythenorth> function declaration with no squiggles?
15:40:15 <frosch123> you have to figure out walking yourself, or ask someone to show up at your place personally to teach you
15:40:22 <frosch123> but there is no way to tell you in text
15:40:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the function has a body :D It is dirty, but that is what happens :)
15:40:40 <Terkhen> as long as I can play without having to deal with those stupidities... but it is a worrysome tendency
15:40:44 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is as valid as if (a) b();
15:40:50 <SquireJames> Alright, fine, consider me a retard. How does one call something then
15:41:06 <andythenorth> GSController.Sleep(32)
15:41:15 <frosch123> just like the Start functions calls HandleEvents() or DoTest()
15:41:16 <andythenorth> with a function parametere
15:41:20 <TrueBrain> it is sad you keep calling yourself stupid, retard, and what other words did you use? while now 4 people are trying to help you along the way without any of those words ...
15:41:30 <TrueBrain> I suggest you stop with that attitude .. it is annoying
15:41:40 <andythenorth> SquireJames: you're English? Not Welsh or Scottish or Northern Irish?
15:42:02 <SquireJames> My nationality has what bearing exactly?
15:42:16 <andythenorth> it's a game I play called 'guess where people are from'
15:42:25 <andythenorth> in the case of TrueBrain I got it very wrong
15:42:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the only valid answer is: my mother :)
15:42:36 <andythenorth> I first encountered TrueBrain when he was being a bit French Canadian
15:42:46 <andythenorth> some days he's like that :P
15:42:49 <TrueBrain> I hate French (no offense glx :P)
15:42:57 <TrueBrain> and I can't stand Canadians (no offense Belugas :P)
15:42:59 <SquireJames> I appologise for my frustration
15:43:19 <SquireJames> Coming from some of the modding i;ve done, it somewhat embarresses me that a script this simple eludes me
15:43:26 <frosch123> TrueBrain: be careful, canadians live the forrest and murder evey stranger that comes along
15:43:30 <andythenorth> SquireJames: honestly, if I was approaching this, I'd start with hello world in Squirrel
15:43:56 <andythenorth> until I'd got classes and methods figured out for the particular language, I'd be lost
15:44:07 <andythenorth> then I'd want to know how strings and other types worked
15:44:16 <Alberth> SquireJames: the trouble with computing is that EVERYTHING has to be precisely correct, so you generally start with something VERY small, and gradually expand
15:44:38 <andythenorth> anyway, /me is going back to battling OS X
15:44:48 <SquireJames> I figured I was. I thought a script to make a string appear on a certain date was hardly rocket science compared to something like an AI or NoCarGoal
15:45:24 <TrueBrain> the problem with programming rarely is the complexity of the script itself, but more of the construct of the language :)
15:45:43 <Alberth> The objective itself is not so big, but there is a lot of stuff around it that you need to know too
15:46:43 <SquireJames> This doesn't seem like something I am likely to grasp to be honest. It seems all things TTD elude me
15:47:13 <Alberth> your problem is basic syntax of the language, which is solvable by doing a few tutorials
15:47:20 <TrueBrain> sadly, this is more general. Squirrel is a very C-like language. it wouldn't hurt to understand the concepts of a language like C, and by extend, of Squirrel
15:48:05 <SquireJames> I appreciate the help, I think i'll go back to sprite editing and hope someone wants to code them for me. Thanks though
15:48:47 <TrueBrain> if you can program one (imperative) language, you can program them all ;) So worth your time in my opinion :)
15:49:07 <Alberth> SquireJames: it's like sprite editing, it takes time and practice. You cannot be productive from day 1
15:49:34 <SquireJames> I was quite good at programming in vB (so I was told by my tutor anyway) but that was some years back and apparently i've forgotten the syntax required
15:49:55 <SquireJames> As I said, I managed to code a train in NFO back in 2004, god alone knows how looking back. I've forgotten it all
15:49:59 <TrueBrain> that is more to blame to vb :D
15:51:18 <SquireJames> I just feel somewhat caged by my limitations and can't seem to do anything about it.
15:52:46 <TrueBrain> books are 2010 .. but an ebook :D
15:53:02 <Alberth> spend a few weeks learning C or C++ or so
15:53:16 <TrueBrain> you have those "learn C in 10 days", where every day you spend like 1 hour on it
15:53:35 <TrueBrain> although I guess Squirrel is more like Java?
15:54:12 <Alberth> TrueBrain: yeah, very annoying, I needed years to learn it, and then they release a book to do it in 10 days :p
15:54:22 <SquireJames> Notepad++ seems to parse it as something like C++, but, beats me
15:54:24 <Alberth> Learning Java is fine too imho
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15:54:49 <andythenorth> didn't bloody work
15:55:05 <TrueBrain> I will get the shotgun
15:55:06 <andythenorth> think those bastards have put hardware serial-number based DRM on 10.7
15:55:38 <andythenorth> I can no longer take a drive with an OS installed (legally) from one mac (I own) to another mac (that I own)
15:55:52 <andythenorth> which has severe implications for troubleshooting / migrating / upgrading
15:56:03 <Alberth> isn't it fun, companies deciding what you may and may not do? :p
15:56:15 <andythenorth> when I tried to boot, I just get a no-entry sign and the mac shuts down
15:56:22 <SquireJames> Part of the problem I think is that I have what might be interpreted as a learning disability, and I find if I grasp something, bam I can run with it. If I can't, it just throws me completely
15:56:26 <Rubidium> isn't it obvious... there are guys specially trained that will do that for you
15:56:56 <Rubidium> you just need to go to the genius bar
15:57:09 <andythenorth> or I could stab myself in the eye
15:57:34 <andythenorth> so the choices are: OS X (fucked), Linux (fucked), Windows (fucked)
15:57:36 <Alberth> SquireJames: part of the problem is that finding the right way to start is difficult
15:57:38 <andythenorth> any other OS choices?
15:58:04 <SquireJames> Hehe, thats going back
15:58:19 <andythenorth> is Chrome an OS yet? :P
15:58:20 <SquireJames> GEM, if you can weld an Atari ST chip into your mac :P
15:58:51 <TrueBrain> ran it for a few months
15:59:00 <TrueBrain> terrible if you enjoy any non-CLI, but meh
15:59:00 <SquireJames> Never worked out if Workbench was a copy of Windows 3.1 or vice versa
15:59:05 <FLHerne> And how is Linux 'fucked'? :-(
15:59:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, with Linux you generally can move a HDD from one computer to another and it'll work
15:59:20 <Rubidium> except when the computer architectures are not compatible
15:59:21 <andythenorth> yes, after you've recompiled about 14 things
15:59:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: didnt you enable encryption on the drive?
15:59:33 <TrueBrain> as then you shouldn't be able to move it to another machine :D
15:59:50 <TrueBrain> meh .. would have been such an easy solution :(
16:00:00 <andythenorth> here's how upgrading goes for the Linux guys I know (several):
16:00:06 <andythenorth> - I have a new laptop (yay)
16:00:46 <TrueBrain> that is not OS depending, is it? :D
16:01:02 <andythenorth> - 1 day later: OK, I have it working now. I had to edit and compile my own graphics driver, I still can't get the native resolution for my screen, the power management isn't working but I don't need it yet, and somehow my mouse speed is a bit off. I had to recompile TCP / IP too, but that's ok
16:01:16 <andythenorth> - it was easy really
16:01:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: that's OpenBSD :p
16:01:45 <Alberth> Linux is friendlier nowadays
16:01:46 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is 2010
16:01:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Really? That was a few years ago (or Debian, ever) for me :P . Modern distros seem to work fine
16:02:05 <Terkhen> yes, that sounds like years ago, stuff like debian and ubuntu now just work
16:02:11 <Terkhen> unless you are using some strange hardware :P
16:02:22 <TrueBrain> I have an USB stick I can plug in most computers, start, and Linux works
16:02:24 <FLHerne> Terkhen: Debian? Work out-of the-box!? :o
16:02:37 <TrueBrain> that said, it is only recent that Linux kernel fixed laptop battery issues
16:02:47 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Do you keep a PPC disk too? I do :P
16:02:50 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you check the hardware you are buying before paying for it, you can avoid linux-unfriendly hardware
16:03:02 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: hence the word "most", always one smartypants in the group
16:03:05 <andythenorth> see, all the things I want to avoid :P
16:03:13 <Terkhen> FLHerne: it worked in my old laptop out of the box
16:03:23 <TrueBrain> Debian works out of the box on a daily base here :P
16:03:24 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: /me is biased, over half my computers are PPC ;-)
16:03:28 <andythenorth> I don't like conversations that go "and see, I just reinstalled it all from ports"
16:03:34 <Kjetil> maybe computers just aren't for you, andythenorth :P
16:03:42 <bolli> Andy: Do what we did at work when our office mac went kaput: walk into an apple store and shout at the manager until they fix it.
16:03:43 <andythenorth> I hate the damn things
16:04:05 <andythenorth> I hate watching this installer solve my problems for me
16:04:22 <TrueBrain> solutions are so simple
16:05:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: As long as it isn't Windows-style 'solving', where it breaks everything while saying "Windows is repairing your system" or something of similar pointlessness :P
16:05:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: use something like gentoo or arch then, that way you will have to solve *all* of your problems
16:05:24 <Terkhen> it's fun... for a while :P
16:05:45 <TrueBrain> I used Gentoo for 4 years or so ... never again :P
16:05:51 <TrueBrain> upgrading your system takes days
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16:06:20 <TrueBrain> in result you stop updating
16:06:26 <TrueBrain> which makes updates take even longer :P
16:07:53 <Terkhen> arch is faster because packages are precompiled already... I like it a lot, except when something breaks and I don't have the time or I just don't feel like checking configuration files
16:07:59 <Terkhen> with identical results than the ones you mention :P
16:08:33 <TrueBrain> Gentoo also has the ability to use precompiled package
16:08:37 <TrueBrain> but that makes the whole OS a bit mute :P
16:08:50 <TrueBrain> then just use Debian :P
16:09:30 <SquireJames> I think you mean moot :P
16:09:49 <SquireJames> Although operating systems are prone not to talk also ;)
16:10:42 <Terkhen> once I want to bother with configuring optimus on linux, I'll probably try xubuntu
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16:59:42 <andythenorth> just scored a 1GB Cialis flash drive
17:00:09 <andythenorth> I should just stop trying to shortcut this process :P
17:01:01 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: FWIW, it's not DRM on OS X, but if you use the restore partition on a certain mac to rebuild your OS X, the disk you restore is tied to that mac
17:01:30 <andythenorth> if you have a download of OS X yourself, you can restore any mac
17:01:33 <andythenorth> which is reasonable
17:01:43 <andythenorth> except the fuckers only let you download 10.8 now
17:01:52 <andythenorth> and 10.8 is reported as bug-ridden and kills battery
17:03:22 <planetmaker> quite so. I'd not want 10.8 really :-)
17:03:59 <planetmaker> this machine still has 10.6. I tested 10.7 but didn't find it worth the upgrade trouble ;-)
17:04:15 <planetmaker> And 10.8 even in anticipation didn't make me want it
17:04:49 <andythenorth> 10.6 won't boot my new mac :(
17:06:03 * andythenorth is bored of this
17:06:23 <planetmaker> wow, it won't boot it?!
17:06:47 <planetmaker> newer system on it?
17:06:52 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get an OS with less restrictive driver support ;-)
17:06:56 <andythenorth> does the three chimes to say RAM is bad, but I think that's incorrect
17:07:05 <planetmaker> hm... and you can't remove the disk anymore either, right?
17:07:22 <andythenorth> nah the disk comes out of this one
17:07:28 <andythenorth> I've had the case open about 12 times today
17:07:49 <planetmaker> so it boots in the old but not the new?
17:08:10 <andythenorth> the old one died this morning
17:08:16 <andythenorth> the new one boots with the supplied disk
17:08:46 <andythenorth> I've been trying to avoid using Migration Assistant :P
17:09:09 <andythenorth> I could have had this done in 2 hrs if I'd done it using the Apple supplied tool
17:10:15 <planetmaker> he. what stopped you using it?
17:10:30 <planetmaker> (except it being a murky tool doing *stuff* with your precious data
17:10:41 <SquireJames> I thought Cialis was that male impotence drug?
17:11:02 <andythenorth> I wanted to put my SSD straight into the new mac
17:11:09 <andythenorth> ignoring the supplied drive
17:11:11 <SquireJames> I am waiting for someone to make a hard drive joke.
17:12:14 <andythenorth> then after trying various upgrade routes (fail fail fail), I made a boo boo
17:12:39 <andythenorth> I used the 'restore' feature in 10.7, but using my wife's laptop instead of mine
17:12:52 <andythenorth> so now my SSD has a successful upgrade, but will only boot my wife's laptop
17:12:53 <Terkhen> the warranty allows you to open the computer and change hard drives?
17:13:13 <andythenorth> they don't refuse to fix it if you've done that
17:13:19 <andythenorth> unless you broke it
17:13:43 <andythenorth> RAM and HD are considered user-serviceable
17:14:12 <andythenorth> Apple have this initially weird approach: either upgrading hardware is stupidly *easy*, or impossible
17:16:33 <SquireJames> As a company, they do baffle me with things like that
17:18:27 <Terkhen> because they are hidden or because of warranty issues? :P
17:43:01 <bolli> Is there a sample Freight Wagon available on NML wiki? I can'aye find one...
17:45:03 <planetmaker> I guess not directly. But... you read through the tutorial with the tram(?)
17:46:34 <bolli> I've read through the tram stuff. What I want to know is whether there are any major differences with freight cars?
17:47:19 <planetmaker> the transported cargo usually ;-)
17:47:40 <planetmaker> and if you talk trains instead of trams or RV, of course also a track type
17:48:19 <planetmaker> the difference between engine and wagon is basically the absence of power and tractive effort
18:06:22 <TrueBrain> # Jouw bil is een krokodil, hap hap met je krokobil
18:15:35 <frosch123> i kind of missed that... belugas always sang in this channel
18:23:29 <Rubidium> to stay within the theme then:
18:23:32 <Rubidium> # schni schna schnappi schnappi schnappi schnapp
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18:36:53 <andythenorth> maybe it bloody worked
18:36:56 <Rubidium> yeah... only four months till Christmas. Time to buy a tree
18:37:14 <andythenorth> it even seems to have remembered that I disabled trackpad scroll and all that crap
18:37:23 * andythenorth should just have read the instructions
18:38:34 <andythenorth> the assumption that Apple are now out to screw their customers has wasted most of my afternoon :P
18:38:50 <andythenorth> if I'd read their support article first, my life would be easier :P
18:38:51 <SquireJames> these things happen :)
18:39:13 <SquireJames> besides, isn't that our male prerogative, to never read the instructions?
18:39:13 <andythenorth> wonder if my python apps start :P
18:40:28 <andythenorth> wonder if nml builds :P
18:40:33 <andythenorth> wonder if OpenTTD crashes :P
18:41:10 <andythenorth> Plone works though
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18:41:31 <andythenorth> do I really want to build GCC myself :(
18:42:50 <SquireJames> By the way, you gentlemen suggested earlier to do a basic squirrel tutorial (the usual Hello World thingy). Is there one you might reccomend? I am just having trouble finding one.
18:45:04 <andythenorth> I had one somewhere
18:45:11 <SquireJames> notice the tutorial link, well, isn't a link :)
18:45:45 <andythenorth> right now my HD is being reindexed so I can't search :P
18:49:16 <andythenorth> I think that worked
18:49:24 <andythenorth> I can't remember how to run squirrel or anything
18:49:31 <andythenorth> not sure what it does either
18:49:33 <SquireJames> I'll give it a go, thanks :)
18:50:09 <andythenorth> it demonstrates the difference in search results if you lower case all strings or not
18:50:13 <SquireJames> I downloaded Squirrel from their site, and I have a plugin for Notepad+ specifically for it now, although the C++ mode in Notepad+ seemed to have the right syntax
18:50:19 <andythenorth> I made it to debug someone else's code iirc
18:51:17 <andythenorth> it's in the samples dir of my squirrel download
18:51:23 <andythenorth> so to run it, I use "bin/sq samples/hello.nut "
18:51:50 <andythenorth> some people can learn languages because they're programmers
18:52:05 <andythenorth> and some of us learn languages by first learning the print statement, and then working up from there :P
18:58:40 <Alberth> programmers also started with 'print' in the first 6 languages they learned :p
18:59:12 <Alberth> although, some didn't have one :p
19:01:06 <Alberth> SquireJames: yeah, c++ mode mostly works, except for things like 'function'
19:01:46 <SquireJames> Prepare yourself for some very basic questions here, but ahem, erm, how do I get squirrel to run exactly
19:02:13 <SquireJames> It;s command line based I assume
19:05:03 <SquireJames> AH, hmm apparently I need VisualC++ or something called GCC
19:08:55 <SquireJames> although makefile seems to be a .bat file
19:09:53 <bolli> run the .bat file on windows? :p
19:10:02 <SquireJames> That was my next step yes :P
19:10:11 <SquireJames> once I make sure it's pointing at the right file
19:12:47 <SquireJames> hmm, "The system cannot find message text for message number 0x2331 in the message fil e for Application."
19:15:48 <Kjetil> no! You will break the internets!
19:16:31 * bolli watches various ISPs explode...
19:17:36 <SquireJames> The manual says this:-
19:17:38 <SquireJames> --------------------------------------------------------- GCC USERS ......................................................... There is a very simple makefile that compiles all libraries and exes from the root of the project run 'make' for 32 bits systems $ make for 64 bits systems $ make sq64
19:18:01 <SquireJames> which is what I ran, from a command prompt in that folder, I ran hello.nut make sq64
19:19:54 <SquireJames> Oh great, a lightbulb turns on, this damned thing isn't compiled
19:20:19 <andythenorth> it is once you've compiled it ;)
19:20:30 <SquireJames> So I need to know C++ to compile Squirrel, to practice Squirrel, to make game scripts. Phew!
19:21:36 <Alberth> 'know' is a big word for being able to compile it :)
19:22:06 <bolli> I don't find C++ that hard a language to code in personally :/
19:22:18 <andythenorth> you don't need to know C++ to run make
19:22:21 <bolli> easier than, say Python or Ruby....
19:22:23 * andythenorth is proof of that
19:22:37 * andythenorth is currently angry that make is missing from OS X 10.7
19:23:03 <Alberth> bolli: ever tried programming a template? :D
19:23:26 <Kjetil> Install it make? Install another OS?
19:23:40 <SquireJames> True, but I need to have VisualC++ on my PC to compile it, and I am assuming that it isn't free
19:23:53 * andythenorth installs make using the obvious GUI tool :(
19:24:01 * andythenorth keeps expecting things to be harder than they are
19:24:12 <Kjetil> Visual C++ Express is free
19:24:26 <andythenorth> but I have rejected 4GB of Apple developer docs that XCode also tried to install :P
19:24:35 <SquireJames> Really? alright then, here goes
19:24:52 <bolli> Thats what I dislike about systems that spend millions designing GUIs. You end up not being able to find anything. Bring back DOS!
19:24:54 <andythenorth> bolli: yeah, that was the solution :)
19:25:07 <andythenorth> I assumed it was harder than 'google answer' :P
19:25:26 <bolli> Thats the 5th result for "make osx 10.7" on google :p
19:26:11 <andythenorth> I could have just fixed a path to my existing tools apparently
19:27:17 <SquireJames> I managed to find a binary that someone compiled
19:27:47 <SquireJames> means all I need do is run cmd, sq -c hello.nut , which I did, and it made a file called out.cnut
19:27:58 <andythenorth> this mac is seriously seriously faster than my old one :o
19:28:37 <andythenorth> it's only .2GHZ faster on paper
19:29:15 <bolli> but surely its about processor design rather than just how many GHZ it has?
19:30:52 <andythenorth> last one was i7, this one is i7
19:34:43 <bolli> but aren't we on the 2nd i7 now?
19:34:53 <bolli> One ivy bridge, one sandy?
19:39:46 <planetmaker> yeah.... design matters nowadays much more than clock speed. And maybe number cores
19:40:03 * planetmaker waits impatiently for his i7, too
19:40:25 * bolli keeps dreaming of being able to afford an i7
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19:48:20 <Rubidium> there are ones for less than 60$ on ebay
19:52:50 <andythenorth> even FF is fast :O
19:55:23 <Rubidium> you should be using safari
19:56:16 <andythenorth> I use that for browswing
19:56:22 <andythenorth> FF is for making internets
20:00:32 <bolli> Hmm. Maybe I underestimated how hard a metal effect is in 8 bit :|
20:05:17 <SquireJames> 8 bit metal... I'm now picturing Metallica on a SNES
20:14:58 * bolli pretends he knows what a SNES is and nods
20:15:27 <KenjiE20> aaaand now I feel ancient
20:16:27 <bolli> I've never been into games consoles...
20:17:06 <Alberth> Euhm, wikipedia says that SNES was a 16 but system
20:17:30 * Alberth was thinking about an 8 bit 6502 with a whopping 2MHz :p
20:18:31 <bolli> I will admit to owning a Genesis though....
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20:56:18 <Fremen> yay needed half a day to make 1 railroad loop of 12000 rails :p
21:04:14 <Alberth> I needed a full day to make a patch of about 100KB. does that count ?
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21:46:42 <SquireJames> Correction then, NES, not SNES :)
21:49:00 <__ln__> neil armstrong is dead
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23:27:26 *** oddjob is now known as sopparus
23:27:57 <sopparus> ive got version 1.2.2 and a bus got stuck in my town, it cant go anywhere even though there is a road
23:31:55 <sopparus> the rating is ofcourse bad since the bus has been stuck for 10 years or so now
23:32:40 <Supercheese> if it's the one that appears to be at Ostra Fruwood, check to make sure there is a connecting road to the bus terminal
23:32:52 <Supercheese> station signs are blocking view
23:33:25 <sopparus> is the bus behind the airport
23:33:33 <sopparus> right behind the "radar"
23:34:06 <Supercheese> Well, you could try holding down Ctrl and clicking the bus
23:34:14 <Supercheese> make sure it gets stopped/started
23:34:46 <Supercheese> also check to make sure there isn't another stopped bus blocking the terminal
23:37:20 <sopparus> lol there was 8 buses there
23:37:28 <Supercheese> you're welcome :D
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