IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-21
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00:03:35 *** LordPixaII has joined #openttd
00:04:21 <drac_boy> pretty quiet as always here
01:06:33 <haole> hey there... i'm playing openttd with some friends in multiplayer, but we think that the game is really unbalanced regarding airplanes and passengers
01:06:51 <haole> can you recommend me a newgrf that addresses that
01:07:23 <drac_boy> haole I always use basecost and multiply the plane+airport costs period
01:07:33 <drac_boy> I never understood why its always been too low priced
01:07:41 <drush> drac_boy we've got a working ps3 elf of another game and there are 2 steps stopping it from being executed on jailbroken retail units
01:08:01 <drush> that's a lot less steps than a few days ago :)
01:08:05 <haole> drac_boy gonna try it... is basecost a newgrf
01:08:18 <drac_boy> yeah...you have to set parameters for it tho
01:08:23 <drac_boy> its in the readme still
01:08:48 <haole> drac_boy can't find it from within the openttd's client
01:08:59 <haole> oh... "alternative base costs"
01:09:16 <drac_boy> its named basecost.grf ... thats all I can say :p
01:10:29 <drush> I doubt that I'd receive such a reception on freenode
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08:16:11 <Magicbones> Question: Can I disable the autokick funtion to clients that take time to connect/download from a server?
08:16:33 <NGC3982> My solution to that is usually to increase the allowed join time.
08:16:41 <NGC3982> But that's not really a good answer to your question.
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08:21:26 <Terkhen> magicbones: there is probably a setting to change the time before a client is kicked
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08:22:41 <NGC3982> max_join_time disconnects a joining (slow) client after 500 ticks.
08:22:46 <NGC3982> I think the max value is 2000.
08:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there's different times for downloading and catching up after download, etc.
08:23:25 <NGC3982> What is a 'tick' anyway? I can't find references to it.
08:23:53 <Terkhen> I wonder why most people asking stuff leave the channel as soon as they can
08:24:34 <FLHerne> Terkhen: Because they want to try out what they just got told :P
08:24:34 <NGC3982> Sadly, that's IRC for you.
08:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: a "tick" is the ingame time unit. nothing can be faster than that
08:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: every tick, all vehicles are moved forward, cargos are created/removed/loaded/unloaded, etc.
08:26:10 <NGC3982> I think that explains why ive always thought OpenTTD should demand more computing that it actually does.
08:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: fast forward removes the 33ms delay, so it will go as fast as the CPU can go
08:26:54 <Terkhen> it is quite demanding already :P
08:27:17 <NGC3982> Terkhen: The usable information is -huge-? ;)
08:28:25 <NGC3982> In my book, that's kind of the whole thing about OpenTTD.
08:28:57 <NGC3982> The accumulated information creates a bigger sense of wonder than the actual graphics.
08:29:22 <Terkhen> I know, but that is what makes it demanding :P
08:30:19 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Can ticks be altered for network games?
08:30:41 <planetmaker> also not for SP games. Except in FF
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08:31:03 <planetmaker> single player / fast forward
08:31:56 <NGC3982> planetmaker: I have some news regarding our previous discussions. May i PM you?
08:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: also, an ingame day has 74 ticks
08:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it around 2.5 seconds
08:33:01 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I know there are patches that alter the length of ingame days. I guess they are based on changing the amount of ticks per day, and not changing the actuall tick time then?
08:35:02 <planetmaker> you guess right. and you guess wrong. Do you also guess that all apples are green?
08:35:32 * NGC3982 prepares a big speech on green apples and quantum probability
08:35:58 <planetmaker> "there's at least one apple in the universe of which one side is green"
08:39:18 <NGC3982> That is not related to quantum probability, but the closed universe hypothesis.
08:40:00 <NGC3982> And yes, all apples are green as much as all the time patches work with possible game alternations.
08:42:31 <szaman> what unusual is with apple green at one side only?
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09:21:16 <Terkhen> hi dihedral and drac_boy
09:39:46 <Terkhen> drac_boy: feeling very tired... going back to work is not fun
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10:36:03 <dihedral> a Phazorx - i don't believe it
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11:25:47 <Rubidium> interesting OpenTTD uses 33 ms ticks now, TTD has 27 ms and older OpenTTD 30 ms.
11:26:34 <NGC3982> Any particular reason for changing it?
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12:21:45 <Rubidium> I wouldn't know the reason to change it to 33 ms, the other is probably a mistake someone sometime ago made when making the first openttd version
12:36:46 <Phazorx> "a Phazorx"? are there others? i'm pretty sure it supposed to be "the"
12:37:07 <Phazorx> dihedral: quite fine actually... enjoying end of summer
12:38:49 <Phazorx> swung by cuz i was looking at modern cargodist development here
12:46:58 <planetmaker> hm, when did we change to 33ms, Rubidium ?
12:47:14 <planetmaker> I recall when we discussed NML docs that OpenTTD used 30
12:56:48 <petern_> MILLISECONDS_PER_TICK = 30
12:56:56 <dihedral> Phazorx, good luck :-P
12:57:25 <Phazorx> dihedral: lost cause you think?
13:00:30 <petern_> That would be a massive change...
13:00:56 <Phazorx> how many ticks per day btw?
13:01:08 <planetmaker> (30 == 33) as long as also (pi == 3) ;-) 74 ticks a day
13:01:46 <Phazorx> where did these magic numbers came from originally?
13:02:30 <petern_> no, 74 * 27ms = 1 second
13:03:22 <Phazorx> 50 * 20 or 20*50 would make so much mroe sense :)
13:09:08 <Rubidium> planetmaker: somewhere before 10:23 today ;)
13:11:44 <petern_> I assumed you were referring to a comment someone made :)
13:37:17 * NGC3982 wonders how inflation algoritm works.
13:37:27 <planetmaker> lol, Rubidium :-)
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17:08:08 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Commit by zuu :: r24489 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2012-08-21 17:07:17 UTC)
17:08:09 <DorpsGek> Yexo: -Feature [FS#5230]: Display GS dead state in AI debug window.
17:08:41 <frosch123> cia announcements are a lot more subtile :)
17:09:08 * planetmaker steals an "i" from frosch123
17:10:20 <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, i was wondering how to mess up the spelling so that it looks english, i thought adding an unspoken e at the end would suffice
17:10:35 <frosch123> but apparently you also have to drop arbitrary letters :)
17:11:19 * planetmaker knows that way of "creating" words well, though
17:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how half my vocabulary works :p
17:19:22 <Belugas> haa... come on people... can't you cheer up and congratule Zuu for being our new dev???
17:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be way too obvious :p
17:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so... what's the next old game then?
17:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> new games are boring...
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17:48:16 <Muxy> what's the purpose of squirel_export.sh ?
17:49:17 <Zuu> To re-generate some files.
17:49:42 <Muxy> what files and for what use ?
17:51:16 <glx> needed to compile openttd correctly
17:51:33 <Muxy> is there some equiv with windows ?
17:52:04 <glx> maybe one day I'll do a vbs for it
17:52:43 <Zuu> The only case you need to run it manually is if you make changes to the AI/GS API.
17:53:05 <Muxy> ok, so i dont need for NoAI
17:53:05 <Zuu> If you clone/check out trunk, you shouldn't need to run it yourself.
17:56:21 <planetmaker> you need it, if you change NoAI functions / API, of course. Not, if you "just" write an AI itself
17:57:59 <Muxy> i just added a new function, is it considered as a change ?
17:59:51 <Muxy> yes, the VehicleOld Event Message
18:00:03 <glx> then you need to run the script
18:00:04 <Zuu> Yes, that is an API change
18:01:00 <Muxy> and it will generate/modify what file
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18:02:10 <Zuu> Read the beginning of the shell script for information on from where you should execute it.
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18:20:07 <Muxy> glx: if i dont run this script will i be able to compile ?
18:20:28 <planetmaker> not, if you change api
18:20:57 <planetmaker> not necessarily at least. or get some broken result
18:21:43 <Zuu> It is probably possible to update the automatic generated files manually to test it, but before submitting the patch its a good idea to generate the files from the script and use that in the patch.
18:22:00 <Muxy> cause i added my VehicleOld Event, and compile was ok, also running ofc
18:23:32 <planetmaker> that's one of the things which would need it... or AIs won't really be able to make use of it properly
18:26:41 <NGC3982> This questions is very non-OpenTTD related, but it seems to right up this channels alley.
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18:27:27 <NGC3982> If i hypotheticly store every piece of information in the universe on a hard drive - shouldn't i be able to use entropy rules as a form of compression?
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18:28:23 <Alberth> does that save any space?
18:28:37 <Yexo> if you've saved all information already, why do you want compression?
18:29:06 <NGC3982> Alberth: If entropy allows certain configurations to be static, i guess it would.
18:29:34 <NGC3982> For instance, simply knowing the probability for configuration A existing next to configuration C.
18:30:12 <NGC3982> Or, a singularity, where huge areas can be described with very little data, since the information is static troughout the given areas.
18:30:12 <Alberth> but you still need to store that A is there imho
18:30:54 * andythenorth resumes losing at NoCarGoal
18:31:02 <Rubidium> NGC3982: you can't store every piece of information on a hard disk; simple quantum physics rule (Schroedinger's cat)
18:31:35 <NGC3982> Rubidium: Yes, i know. Though, this is a hypothetical scenario that do not need that in consideration.
18:31:43 <Alberth> the harddisk would be part of the universre too :p
18:32:31 <Alberth> so you need infinite amount of space to store everything :)
18:32:42 <NGC3982> Think of it as a Planck-length described as a bit, and that configurations of Planck-lengths make up the universe.
18:33:00 <NGC3982> Yes, well, that is the great thing about hypothesism.
18:34:24 <Alberth> afaik entropy is not about likelyhood of configuration, it's just about every configuration is equally likely, and 'non-ordered' combinations then win by their numbers
18:35:16 <NGC3982> I guess you can use entropy to describe the probability of configurations being the same, on macro scales.
18:35:28 <NGC3982> But let's use the word "repeated configurations" instead.
18:35:42 <NGC3982> It seems to describe what im looking for in a better way.
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18:36:15 <planetmaker> "universe" excludes in the word itself already that it can be mapped to anything less than itself
18:36:53 <NGC3982> And that is: If i (in a hypothetical scenario that ignores quantum business) store all the present information in the observable universe, i guess i could use orders of repeated configurations to describe stuff with some compression.
18:37:53 <Rubidium> pff... isn't it much more efficient to store the important constants and the actual model. Then you can "easily" calculate the state at any moment in time
18:38:07 <NGC3982> Can't the laws and forces be described as definitions of compression?
18:38:54 <planetmaker> nope. You can't predict quantum level
18:39:03 <planetmaker> you can't even describe the state actually
18:40:34 <NGC3982> I don't think i understand. The relevance of not being abled to predict a quantum state doesn't exist if we can monitor larger scale information with predictable rules.
18:41:01 <NGC3982> That really means we can't use quantum processes as compression, but all the rules above it.
18:41:14 <Muxy> Yexo: task 5078 updated.
18:42:08 <planetmaker> NGC3982: you need understanding of quantum gravitation to properly describe and predict the universe. Ever heart of the butterfly effect? ;-)
18:42:26 <NGC3982> For instance, a field should be able to handle limits to a configuration (for instance, mass and it's reaction to the Higgs field) better then rules set for every individual configuration. That seems to be a compression itself?
18:42:40 <Rubidium> but you could predict the butterfly flapping, couldn't you? ;)
18:42:44 <NGC3982> planetmaker: Yes, that is needed in a scenario where quantum effects are taken into effect.
18:42:46 <andythenorth> I think I've solved FIRS supplies, but I'm going to be annoying and keep it a secret until I've tested it
18:42:54 <andythenorth> and it might require FIRS 2 :P
18:42:59 <andythenorth> due to whining about the change
18:43:02 <Rubidium> you just need to know the model and the begin state to perfection (which is undoable)
18:43:03 <andythenorth> also a few other things
18:44:22 <NGC3982> planetmaker: Where quantum effects are taken into consideration*
18:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: is that this bad movie with ashton kutcher?
18:50:01 <planetmaker> I don't know that movie... maybe?
18:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also an even worse second part, which i haven't seen
18:55:41 <NGC3982> I found a paper that confirmed this, by the way.
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18:56:12 <NGC3982> It seems like the general idea is that the simply adding laws to lots of mass creates different entropy
18:56:42 <NGC3982> Thus, entropy can be re-used to determine how the universe is structured, and therefor usable in compressing data if trying to map -everything-.
19:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that didn't make any sense
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19:05:24 <NGC3982> What was not understood?
19:05:43 <NGC3982> I will be happy to elaborate as soon as ive plowed trough my material.
19:07:16 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can you tell me please, so I can whine about it? :P
19:13:48 <andythenorth> ships have some serious pathfinding issues on rivers
19:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> with YAPF or original?
19:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> original is useless with rivers. and useless with seas as well... actually original is completely useless
19:16:14 <andythenorth> maybe I need to place more bouys
19:16:21 <andythenorth> I'm testing the effects without
19:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so what is the actual problem?
19:16:38 <andythenorth> (1) ships getting stuck in river sections, trying to get to a depot
19:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> YAPF should find a path even without buoys
19:16:57 <andythenorth> (2) ships not turning round when leaving a dock
19:17:05 <andythenorth> i.e. going away from next destination
19:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you disabled 90° curves?
19:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> is it better if you enable them?
19:17:33 <Rubidium> so they need more space to turn around
19:17:55 <andythenorth> 90' curves is very plausible
19:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> probably ships need places to go backwards
19:18:16 <NGC3982> andythenorth: I was wondering why nobody fixes that.
19:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: maybe because nobody reported it?
19:19:14 <Alberth> nobody wrote a fix for it :)
19:19:24 <andythenorth> if I see a pattern, I'll post a save
19:19:35 <andythenorth> mostly I just have to build increasingly more canals to fix it :P
19:19:36 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Sure, i have no idea. Since it's an "old" problem, i guessed it simply was a hard nut to crack.
19:19:41 <andythenorth> half my map becomes canals
19:19:55 <Alberth> watery maps are fun :)
19:20:01 <NGC3982> What interests me is why ships that have the same orders don't always take the same route.
19:20:23 <CornishPasty> Someone should add openttd stuff to minecraft :P
19:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well i never use breakdowns/servicing, so the problem never really appeared for me
19:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: with YAPF they do, mostly
19:20:49 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
19:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: with original, they just randomly pick a direction, even if it appears to be straight ahead within 20 tiles
19:21:25 <NGC3982> YAPF comes and is available in the newer (stable) versions of OpenTTD, right?
19:21:37 <Eddi|zuHause> newer, as in 0.5.x?
19:21:50 <NGC3982> As in 1.2.1 and forward.
19:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, YAPF for ship was disabled by default, due to performance issues, but they have been solved quite a while ago
19:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly before 1.1.x even, but not sure
19:22:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I also found ships to be baffled by rivers :-(
19:23:20 <NGC3982> And is YAPF still disabled by default?
19:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's now the default
19:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you have an old config file or load an old savegame
19:24:34 <NGC3982> Well, that means that "< NGC3982> What interests me is why ships that have the same orders don't always take the same route." actually refers to YAPF.
19:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> oha... they arrested Walter White - meth cook
19:25:27 <Terkhen> you should keep spoilers to yourself :)
19:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the fun thing is, it's not a spoiler
19:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a real world guy named Walter White
19:26:17 <Terkhen> oh, sorry, real life spoilers are of course allowed here :P
19:26:49 <NGC3982> For instance, look at this screenshot. All the ship in this picture are to drop off oil at the harbour and then follow an order far to the left.
19:28:09 <NGC3982> Id fix it (or at least try, fail and cry).
19:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "Walter Eddy White was sentenced to jail in 2008 and left on parole in 2010. he failed to attend a court meeting last month and was put on the top of the most wanted list"
19:48:58 <andythenorth> NoCarGoal remains fun
19:49:14 <andythenorth> I think about 100k units for 30 years is about right for the map I have
19:49:18 <andythenorth> I think I'll get bronze :P
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20:05:18 <Yexo> two more commits today due to your patches yesterday :p
20:06:28 <LordAro> wait, how did Zuu commit?
20:07:00 * planetmaker assumes like svn ci -m "blah" :-P (or via tortoiseSVN)
20:08:07 <LordAro> congrats Zuu on (i'm assuming) becoming developer :)
20:08:25 <LordAro> Yexo: i blame you not reviewing my code properly :P
20:09:04 <Zuu> LordAro: Thanks you are right
20:09:29 <LordAro> not running squirrel_export.sh was a silly mistake on my part though :L
20:11:56 * LordAro thinks that readme.txt and misc_gui.cpp are outdated in that case :P
20:12:58 <Yexo> Zuu: ^^ another commit for you :)
20:27:45 <Zuu> LordAro: You mean that the readme.txt should document that you have to run squirrel_export.sh when doing API work?
20:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you could use a named pipe instead of a tempfile
20:57:27 <frosch123> and you could also check the attributions in the commit message :p
20:58:02 <frosch123> though you will miss backports when using hg
20:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> postulate: any program that cannot be improved is trivial.
20:58:12 <frosch123> and other weird branches :)
20:58:23 <Zuu> LordAro: uniq -c will print the number of occurances
20:58:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you know about programs like "gnu hello" ?
20:58:54 <frosch123> even trivial things can be "improved"
20:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that is
20:59:07 <frosch123> though "improved" might be subjective :p
20:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but anyway, i have not said anything about the reverse
20:59:39 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i tried the 'named pipe' but i kept getting errors...
20:59:44 <Zuu> Eg use: hg log --template "{author}\n" | sort | uniq -ic
20:59:59 <Zuu> to get data for the REPO in current directory.
21:01:00 <Zuu> append a "| sort" and it will show the results ordered by number of commits too.
21:01:32 <Yexo> should be "| sort -n" to sort numerically
21:01:39 <Yexo> otherwise you get weird sortings
21:03:10 <Zuu> It this case it works without -n, because the it has " 2" and "10".
21:03:39 <Zuu> different 'uniq' versions probably.
21:03:40 <Yexo> I think because sort will take "fields" so it strips the spaces
21:04:03 <Zuu> or a 'sort' that trim the strings before
21:04:57 <LordAro> Yexo/Zuu: what if i want to sort alphabetically? :P
21:06:28 <LordAro> ok, that whole block is now down to "echo `hg log -R $1 --template "{author}\n"` | sort | uniq -ic"
21:07:15 <LordAro> ok, that whole block is now down to "echo `hg log -R $1 --template "{author}\n"` | sort | uniq -ic > devlist.tmp; cat devlist.tmp"
21:07:23 <LordAro> still not sure how to get rid of the temp file
21:07:37 <Yexo> just do "hg log -R $1 --template "{author}\n"` | sort | uniq -ic"
21:11:03 <LordAro> so basically, my way was massively over complicated?
21:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that's very common for "first tries" :)
21:19:14 <LordAro> hmm... ohloh.net doesn't display total number of commits anymore...
21:23:18 <LordAro> hmm... RichK and signde are not noted to be developers, yet they have commits in trunk...
21:23:40 <LordAro> are (were) they devs? or just given special permission?
21:26:20 <Yexo> a lot of people are not listed as developer, you have to fill in that yourself I think
21:27:08 <LordAro> they are just listed in 'thanks to'
21:28:11 <LordAro> same for pasky and hackykid, it would seem
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21:30:13 <LordAro> methinks Rubidium is the only one still around who is old enough to remember :)
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21:42:21 <michi_cc> LordAro: Improvement for your script: "git shortlog -n -s" :p
21:42:57 <LordAro> i did come across something similar when i was googling solutions :)
21:43:34 <Zuu> so git users care more about commit stats than hg users?
21:43:54 <michi_cc> hackykid was old PBS methinks, and pasky was (is) mentioned in some code comments for NewGRF code.
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