IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-20
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06:22:23 <andythenorth> so my first GS idea is a simple money challenge
06:22:41 <andythenorth> start in 1870, play until 2020, make $large amount
06:23:49 <andythenorth> simplest version is pure cash balance
06:24:05 <andythenorth> alternatively, look at average revenue per year
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12:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having a serious case of "which idiot wrote this code" while looking over a year-old part of my code...
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12:59:30 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: at least you know the answer to that Q :)
13:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i know the answer to a rhethorical question. wohoo
13:01:18 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: i'm often merging changesets coming from other devs and i'm faced with questions like "which one of idiots who wrote that macaronni looking fuglines is less worng"
13:01:52 <Phazorx> not openttd related code obviously, but the point stands :)
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14:42:57 <Matulla> hi all what is new to 1.2.2
14:43:37 <Matulla> and i try to get more information on transported what does this clearly mean
14:44:00 <Matulla> Example oilwell is most far from the production plant
14:45:23 <Matulla> so if i go fo a 3x3 tile road with 2 stations and 4 Trucks to deliver to a offside trainstation whoudt that increase the transported factor
14:46:01 <Matulla> or is it calculated on the well2refine line
14:46:58 <Matulla> so its the truck traffels 4 tiles and the train trefels 60 tiles
14:51:13 <Matulla> i will ask later today as there are all working i think till 5 in MESZ
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15:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "if i suspect everyone works till 5, i quit 10 minutes before 5"
15:33:47 <Terkhen> if no one answers in a randomly chosen 10 minute interval, everyone must be working
15:39:57 <FLHerne> Or playing Minecraft :P
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16:24:38 <andythenorth> Zuu want to create some GS?
16:24:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Hihihi :P
16:25:05 <andythenorth> Zuu: not specific to FIRS
16:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i didn't really get what you wanted te GS to actually do...
16:25:42 <andythenorth> start in 1870, play until 2020
16:25:51 <andythenorth> have to earn $xxxxxxxxxxxxx
16:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> a gamescript cannot define a startdate
16:26:09 <andythenorth> scale amount according to map size
16:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you can, however, say "startdate + 150 years"
16:26:49 <andythenorth> see, I pick the simplest case I can think of, and straight away, a hole in the spec :P :D
16:26:59 <Zuu> Yep, and have a setting to define X=150
16:27:06 <andythenorth> or it could be tied to a scenario?
16:27:14 <andythenorth> making scenarios is boring
16:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it could be, but doesn't make a whole lot of sense...
16:27:27 <andythenorth> GS can build towns and industries yet?
16:27:38 <Zuu> If the GS have settings you can make a scenario that provide a map + settings.
16:27:58 <andythenorth> so some games would do it like this:
16:28:03 <andythenorth> - fixed map, fixed start date
16:28:08 <andythenorth> - seed points for towns and industries
16:28:08 <Zuu> GS cannot build towns or industries for free, it need a rich AI to rob for money.
16:28:34 <andythenorth> can GS have parameters / settings?
16:28:38 <Zuu> Something I think maybe should be changed, but that is how it works right now.
16:28:54 <andythenorth> just give it access to cheat menu :P
16:28:54 <Zuu> GS can have settings in the same way as AIs.
16:28:58 <planetmaker> alternatively adjust the money goal by industry and town count?
16:29:08 <andythenorth> plausible lateral solution
16:29:34 <Zuu> Making a such GS is not very hard. The most time cosuming part is probably to calibrate the goal.
16:29:47 <andythenorth> but we could run tests on that?
16:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which: most of the difficulty settings were not exposed to NewGRFs, last time i checked. only advanced settings
16:29:54 <andythenorth> make it an AI chalenge :P
16:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> did anyone change that yet?
16:30:16 <andythenorth> monthly AI contests against a specific GS? :P
16:30:16 <planetmaker> not that I know. Which do you miss, Eddi|zuHause ?
16:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well all of them, let the authors figure out how to use them.
16:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> particularly fluctuating economy and industry density might be useful to an industry set
16:31:26 <planetmaker> they're not useful as soon as you have industry newgrfs. Though might be with industry newgrfs themselves... hm
16:31:38 <planetmaker> not sure about industry density though
16:31:48 <planetmaker> industries are still asked to be built by the game
16:32:10 <andythenorth> economy is nearly useless to newgrf
16:32:17 <andythenorth> industry density is possibly useful
16:32:21 <planetmaker> vehicle running costs... does it influence newgrfs actually?
16:32:34 <andythenorth> the base cost is adjusted accordingly
16:32:43 <planetmaker> as such it should not be exposed
16:32:43 <andythenorth> I learnt this the hard way :P
16:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: afair it's an additional factor to the base cost. like -10% or +10%
16:33:17 <planetmaker> otherwise it becomes kinda pointless and an annoyance to players as it might actually work counter-intuitive with evil newgrfs
16:33:38 <planetmaker> construction speed: irrelevant
16:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what's the harm?
16:33:51 <andythenorth> Zuu the other simple challenge I can think of for GS is cargo challenge: move certain amount of cargos A, B and C
16:33:58 <andythenorth> with bronze / silver / gold win conditions
16:34:07 <andythenorth> either in total, or per year
16:34:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, harm is possible counter-intuitiveness. And pointlessness
16:34:12 <Zuu> Hmm, maybe it would make sense to add economy goals to my TransportGoal GS and let you configure which goals you want to enable.
16:34:22 <Zuu> To not spawn even more GSs
16:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that then is the NewGRF author's fault
16:34:46 <andythenorth> for me, I'm trying to avoid having to invent my own goals, I just want to be given a challenge
16:34:59 <andythenorth> I have enough inventing of my own goals :P
16:35:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, and it will be called upon OpenTTD. And really... why?
16:35:20 * andythenorth would just like to have a win condition to meet
16:35:43 <planetmaker> though... yes... one could differenciate it better than default
16:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: suppose i want to increase the effect of running costs. if running costs "high" is set, i could up the running base cost by another x2
16:36:24 <Zuu> andythenorth: Alberth created a new API feature that let GS monitor cargo supply to stations as well as delivery at target industry. So if you monitor all industries that accept or produce a given cargo, you could monitor the amount of transported cargo of a given cargo.
16:36:39 <andythenorth> Zuu: can you sanely store 'all time' figures?
16:37:00 <Zuu> All time sum is possible yes.
16:37:13 <andythenorth> can you distinguish primary and secondary cargos?
16:37:17 <Zuu> GS/AI have quite a lot of freedome when it come to storing data.
16:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: currently you can only check which of the difficulty presets is selected. but nobody uses those...
16:37:24 <planetmaker> next, vehicle breakdowns... I don't think they should really influence newgrfs... could be used to change costs depending on setting, though
16:37:32 <Zuu> (as long as it is within a single game)
16:37:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, george does in ecs afaik
16:37:42 <planetmaker> last time I checked for it at least
16:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and it's stupid.
16:38:28 <Zuu> andythenorth: On IndustryType level there is a API function to check if an industry is a raw industry.
16:38:30 <andythenorth> GS could have tables of all the known cargo labels, that's not an insane amount of copy-paste
16:38:39 <planetmaker> I won't exactly argue against that there ;-)
16:38:43 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: several settings in the game setup window cause the game to switch to "custom" difficulty
16:39:24 <planetmaker> Zuu, can GS read difficulty setting "disasters"?
16:39:46 <andythenorth> Zuu: so my idea is: GS picks three cargos at random (A, B, C). Goal is to transport xxx of each cargo. Bronze = met for one cargo . Silver = met for two. Gold = met for all three
16:39:52 <andythenorth> play time is 99 years
16:40:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what about rather a shorter time. 99 game years is still a lot of playing time. But I guess that's configurable
16:40:44 <Zuu> planetmaker: If GSControler::GetSetting(name) can read it. Here name is the name as it appear in openttd.cfg. I can test if you are interested.
16:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> can difficulty settings be changed in multiplayer games? some can be changed in single player, but not all of them
16:40:52 <andythenorth> so 30 years is 1-2 evenings. Could be nice.
16:41:10 <planetmaker> that's good enough for me, Zuu. thx
16:41:23 <andythenorth> planetmaker: one of my conditions is: I don't want to configure the GS, at all :)
16:41:24 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, you can change some. Like breakdowns
16:41:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth, "don't want to configure" != absence of parameter. Just good-enough defaults for them
16:42:03 <Zuu> I believe GSController::GetSetting might have problem with multi-set settings as it returns an integer.
16:42:15 <planetmaker> your good-enough defaults might be another man's "don't like" ;-)
16:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that sounds like a misdesign
16:42:52 <andythenorth> we also then need MP league table per GS :P
16:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: because in the config you have names because the numbers may change
16:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> then the script breaks
16:43:44 <Zuu> Also if the name of a setting change, the script breaks.
16:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: maybe a GetSettingString(name) may be useful?
16:46:23 <Zuu> Oh sorry. The GSController::GetSetting is for the settings of the AI/GS itself. Not the game settings. They are accessed through a different class. Let me find it..
16:46:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the MP league table would be something for a server actually.
16:46:55 <Zuu> It also returns an integer though.
16:46:55 <andythenorth> GS would need same map seed to be meaningful wrt high scores
16:46:59 <planetmaker> If you're interested in getting such thing off the ground, I'd be interested in supporting that... we have ample space to create such server
16:47:14 <andythenorth> it's something TrueBrain might like :)
16:47:17 <planetmaker> and probably would quite easily get some people testing it :-)
16:47:25 <Zuu> The API contains this warning " Results of this function are not governed by the API. This means that the value of settings may be out of the expected range. It also means that a setting that previously existed can be gone or has changed its name/characteristics. "
16:48:03 <Zuu> Yet its the only inteface to settings, and some of them might be neccessary to look at to get a good behaviour on all setting values.
16:48:05 <andythenorth> for GS challenges, there are a set of initial conditions that it would be useful to configure
16:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: my point still applies to that
16:48:58 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Yes your point is still good
16:49:18 <andythenorth> some challenges might want to grant the player a big initial loan for example
16:49:37 <andythenorth> not sure about newgrfs, if they should be fixed or not
16:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> since the game converts numbers to strings and back for the config file, there is no reason why it couldn't do that same thing for the GS/AI api
16:51:19 <NGC3982> andythenorth: I have give great thought on your current OpenTTD situation.
16:51:24 <NGC3982> And i think i have a solution.
16:51:59 <andythenorth> oh Soylent again :P
16:52:20 <NGC3982> First, we need a soviet:ish scenario
16:52:52 <NGC3982> And a fantastic setup of industries
16:53:11 <NGC3982> That's it, i can't bare. Im going to start planning it when i get home.
16:54:00 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Hey, Ior. Don't turn that dice on me.
16:54:06 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Start making stuff.
16:55:12 <NGC3982> A scenario could easily be to send "Security Units" to towns, and the town (as an industry) produces "Human fuel".
16:55:56 <NGC3982> You bring the fuel to the Soylentcom Supplies Company (tm) and it produced Soylent green (food).
16:56:34 <NGC3982> A catastrophy could be the arrival of Charlton Heston, abruptly halting the production of Soylent Green.
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17:04:56 <Matulla> Hi all is there any information speciffic over transported behavier
17:05:41 <Matulla> example if i transport by truck some tiles and then via train the large amount
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17:06:11 <Matulla> does this increase the level of transported or is it from EX well to refain total
17:06:47 <Belugas> "There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those that understand binary and those that don't"
17:09:55 <andythenorth> Belugas: I think there's a schrodinger version of that joke somewhere
17:10:09 <andythenorth> certainly I saw a funnier update on it recently somewhere :P
17:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: only the rating at the first pickup station matters
17:12:29 <planetmaker> Matulla, "transported behaviour" means exactly what?
17:13:00 * andythenorth considers a GS contest
17:13:13 <andythenorth> for most fun 30 year GS
17:13:17 <planetmaker> station rating is only governed by the frequency of persistence of pickup (and somewhat by statues, vehicle age, vehicle type...)
17:13:25 <planetmaker> Check out our wiki for the exact details :-)
17:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: at the transfer station, you should only make sure that the rating does not drop below 50%
17:14:00 <Matulla> oh si it is better to form a 3x3 road with 2 stations and trevel with 4 trucks around to pick and depart at may and then from the second station with a train to the long distance
17:14:27 <Matulla> my rate is always above 80%
17:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it has advantages, yes
17:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: rating automatically drops by around 6% when the vehicles are older than 2 years
17:15:39 <Matulla> oh i dident know that
17:15:56 <Matulla> so refrach after 3 Years will increase
17:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and very fast vehicles give a bonus of up to 17%
17:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: i think it's 3% after the first year, and another 3% after the second year
17:17:04 <Matulla> i started at 40k oil 12 Gameyears ago and its still there
17:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot really influence that.
17:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> normal industries have a better chance of increasing if rating is above 66%, but oil wells never increase
17:18:33 <Matulla> so stay on GAmescome germany no sign of Openttd i the 4 large Expo Halls
17:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe, i don't think any of us really have interest in presenting stuff there :)
17:19:48 <Eddi|zuHause> (and i'm sure it costs money to present there)
17:19:53 <Matulla> but alot of very nice hostesses
17:20:13 <Matulla> if you got acces to ASTRA Europ WDR 22:45 MESZ
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17:20:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:21:07 <planetmaker> we don't make money with this game. We personally don't get nor expect money but work on it for fun. Why should we pay for marketing?
17:21:10 <planetmaker> Will you sponsor that?
17:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlNB5MGWRgY <-- you remember that from last year? :)
17:22:39 <Matulla> there are only one small place for opensource games
17:23:50 <Matulla> amd most the linuxgays there
17:26:40 <planetmaker> disgusting video, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
17:29:32 <Matulla> Thanks for the infos BY
17:44:17 <Zuu> Oh, btw the cargo goal GS will only work on 1.3 / trunk.
17:46:56 <andythenorth> Zuu: I only play trunk :)
17:46:59 <andythenorth> give or take patches :P
17:49:13 <Wolf01> what the hot.. 36°C today, plus the usual 55-65% humidity
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18:08:49 <frosch> only 33°C and 49% here
18:09:24 <planetmaker> dunno how much. Yesterday it was 36°C here... a well 11°C over my max "feel well" temperature
18:09:32 <NGC3982> It's thundery (low humidity) and 23C in southern sweden, and i can hardly cope with it.
18:10:39 <frosch> same tomorrow, wednesday will be a lot colder again :)
18:19:48 <andythenorth> how would a league table work?
18:20:06 <andythenorth> and do we have any donations left over for a competiton?
18:20:20 * andythenorth is tempted to give a prize himself
18:20:42 <Zuu> andythenorth: when end_year is reached, use the admin port to send results to a bot with DB access.
18:21:28 <planetmaker> the sad part is "use the admin port"... no open source version except dih's well-working example implementation
18:36:12 <Zuu> Hmm, so there is no string like eg. {VEHICLE} to show the cargo name of a cargo?
18:36:49 <Zuu> Eg. I could have the cargo id 5 stored in a variable and want to show the cargo name in a string.
18:36:53 <andythenorth> Zuu: if there isn't...feature request :)
18:37:12 <Zuu> I can't find one on the wiki, but the wiki might be outdated
18:37:59 <andythenorth> I could work backwards through code and find what feature request that would be :P
18:38:06 <andythenorth> but others would just...know the answer already :)
18:39:06 <Rubidium> Zuu: don't think it exists... but... {CARGO_LIST} and (1 << 5) as parameter might do the trick
18:43:45 <NGC3982> How can i download older versions?
18:44:55 <planetmaker> look at binaries.openttd.org
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18:52:33 <Zuu> Rubidium: Thanks, that did the trick. Shall I document it on the wiki or is it more of a hack?
18:53:07 <Rubidium> I'd say it's a huge hack
18:54:07 <planetmaker> I guess we have a feature request :D
18:56:47 * andythenorth is drowning in this soylent crap
18:56:53 <andythenorth> it's like every day at the moment
18:58:35 <NGC3982> andythenorth: *troll face*
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19:28:41 <Yexo> Muxy: I've seen it, but I remember some discussion about that event
19:28:55 <Yexo> it has been discussed before, not sure what the outcome was
19:29:10 <Yexo> and you introduce unnecessary newlines at the start of the patch
19:30:14 <Yexo> it's also missing documentation
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19:35:32 <frosch> [21:28] <Yexo> it has been discussed before, not sure what the outcome was <- that it was added to the todo list? or do you mean some coding related discussion?
19:41:00 <Yexo> in that case: Muxy if you fix the above few things I'll commit it ;)
19:46:38 <Yexo> seems I can't even read the FS item, it's my own first post there
19:50:51 <planetmaker> 500 commits... when will that be?
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19:56:05 <michi_cc> Muxy: Path looks like you did not run src/script/api/squirrel_export.sh
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20:10:24 * Terkhen pokes LordAro with a "hello"
20:10:49 <Yexo> I did look at your patch yesterday :)P
20:11:01 * LordAro waves at planetmaker, Terkhen and Yexo
20:16:01 <LordAro> Yexo: that may be so, but i see no commits or code review :P
20:16:25 <Yexo> you weren't on irc anymore and I was too lazy to open the issue again and post something there
20:18:32 <Yexo> ah, yes: in tcp_content.cpp ContentInfo::GetTextfile you check (this->md5sum != NULL), but md5sum is an array
20:20:50 <LordAro> well, i didn't come up with that, with was used in other places...
20:21:09 <Yexo> probably for other structs where md5sum is a pointer, not an array ;)
20:21:19 <Yexo> oh, and you strecpy the path but I see no reason to do so
20:24:37 <LordAro> so instead of '...md5sum != NULL', i would want... ?
20:25:13 <Kjetil> (not that I've seen the code)
20:26:05 <LordAro> so... 'true' or 'false' ?
20:26:22 <LordAro> true will make it look at md5sum, false will make it look at 'id'
20:26:27 <LordAro> whatever 'id' is... :L
20:28:34 <Yexo> you only want the textfile for content where you have an exact match on your harddisk
20:28:49 <Yexo> you don't want the readme for opengfx v3 when you're looking in the online content window at v4
20:31:23 <LordAro> and what about not strecpy-ing?
20:31:56 <Yexo> you can directly use tmp instead of strecpy into the local filepath buffer
20:32:04 <Yexo> it won't become invalid before the function returns
20:32:21 <Yexo> or if it can, you already have a bug and won't make it worse by using tmp
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20:45:13 <LordAro> it's annoying when you forget to pop to the correct patch in the queue :L
20:45:26 <LordAro> luckily, i'd only modified 1 file, so a revert was easy
20:48:26 <LordAro> Yexo: i know you get an email notification, but the patch has been updated
20:48:42 <Yexo> email notification was faster still :p
20:49:52 <Yexo> are all the includes in tcp_content.cpp needed?
20:50:39 <LordAro> not sure about _all_ of them, but that is where the 'new' functions referenced in GetTextfile are located
20:51:59 <LordAro> i don't think i ever 'bothered' testing if i needed absolutely all of them
20:52:19 <Yexo> there is an unnecessary change in 04 in fios.cpp
20:52:24 <Yexo> (but don't bother fixing that with a new upload)
20:58:11 <LordAro> so there is, not sure how that got there :L
20:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> disgusting video, Eddi|zuHause ;-) <-- you should have seen the original...
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21:04:06 <Yexo> LordAro: patch 05 is completely broken
21:04:25 <Yexo> it does indeed look for a file named "COPYING", but it also does that when you want the changelog
21:04:44 <LordAro> i thought i fixed that...
21:05:23 <Yexo> not in the version you uploaded to that fs task
21:05:44 <frosch> does bananas allow a COPYING file?
21:05:44 <Yexo> oh, maybe you did fix that
21:06:28 <Yexo> LordAro: you did fix it but in the wrong way
21:06:32 <Zuu> frosch: if you choose Custom, I think you can supply your own. Otherwise bananas will insert the corresponding COPYING file for the license that you have picked.
21:06:41 <Yexo> (it works, but it's not right)
21:06:50 <frosch> i think bananas renames all those files to license.txt
21:06:52 <Yexo> return (FioCheckFileExists(file_path, dir) && prefix == prefixes[2]) ? file_path : NULL; <- that
21:07:11 <frosch> yes, it does, i have to code right in front of me :)
21:07:24 <Yexo> return (type == TFT_LICENSE && FioCheckFileExists(file_path, dir)) ? file_path : NULL;
21:07:37 <Yexo> but with frosch comments I see no reason at all for such a patch
21:08:04 <Zuu> Other than perhaps that there may be other distribution means than bananas.
21:08:18 <frosch> Zuu: but not in the content gui :)
21:08:31 <Zuu> frosch: Very good point :-)
21:08:33 <Yexo> frosch: this is not only for the content gui, also for the newgrf/ai/gs window
21:08:49 <LordAro> frosch/whoever: don't forget that function is not exclusively for content gui
21:09:03 <Yexo> but still, bananas is the "official" supported way, and I see no reason to make all kind of exceptions for other filenames
21:09:12 <LordAro> + OTTD 'license.txt' is also named 'COPYING'
21:09:17 <Yexo> if someone wants to distribute it another way, they just have to rename/copy their file to "license.txt"
21:09:51 <LordAro> ... and i have 'plans'... :)
21:09:52 <Yexo> ^^ that's a good point though
21:09:58 <Zuu> Btw, in standard GPL, doesn't it say COPYING as the license file?
21:10:19 <Zuu> But if bananas change it, then this patch doesn't solve that.
21:12:05 <Yexo> what's the point of that?
21:12:54 <Yexo> display the openttd changelog?
21:12:59 <Yexo> why not simply read that file?
21:13:41 <LordAro> to deal with (fairly common) instances where the textfile is not in an 'expected' location
21:13:54 <LordAro> e.g. debian packaging iirc
21:14:01 <Yexo> I think there are better ways to deal with that
21:14:56 <LordAro> i cannot think of one
21:16:05 <planetmaker> LordAro: I think there could be like --doc-path or so as compile time argument which changes the readme path for openttd (and possibly base set) readmes
21:16:45 <planetmaker> --doc-dir actually is already there
21:16:59 <LordAro> that's an interesting solution, but again, debian packaging compresses the textfiles, making reading them difficult
21:18:19 <LordAro> i discussed it with Rubidium a while ago
21:21:32 <LordAro> huh, CIA is a bit slow tonight...
21:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about debian?
21:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe openttd is ripe to get the ability to read compressed (.tar.gz/bz2/xz) files?
21:39:20 <LordAro> but that's waaay above my level :L
22:36:19 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
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