IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-19
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10:08:17 <Alberth> fine, just getting anything done
10:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i was just wondering, because that sentence did not make any sense :p
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10:46:46 <Zuu> One step further for a working road chapter in the Tutorail. Now it can detect when you completed the road using RPF 4 for NoGo (via a wrapper in SuperLib of course ;-) )
10:48:20 <Zuu> As a side effect, there will be a RPF for Nogo on bananas :-)
10:55:50 <Alberth> that does not make a lot of sense imho
10:56:31 <Alberth> for the tutorial seems fine, but for a goal script in general?
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11:08:14 <frosch123> hmm, so, apparently there are 1/300 more friday 13th, than there should be
11:20:11 <Zuu> Alberth: what about the goal, build a road to connect <town x> with <town y>?
11:20:28 <Zuu> Or have a NoGo to construct highways?
11:21:07 <Alberth> is connecting two towns a useful challenge?
11:22:01 <Alberth> I mean, once you have seen how to do it, it's trivial, isn't it?
11:22:46 <Alberth> and about highways, I thought it was the player who played being tycoon :p
11:22:49 <frosch123> maybe "construct connection with at most 3 slopes, and without landscaping" :p
11:23:57 <Alberth> well, perhaps you are right in wanting these kind of things, but you're moving to making the GS just another player
11:23:57 <frosch123> though that's likely a trial&error mayhem once the numbers get bigger
11:24:20 <Alberth> and we already have those
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11:54:16 <Markk> Sorry for that, I'm not used to this keyboard.
11:59:46 <Alberth> practice a bit more :)
12:04:56 <frosch123> ogfx+trains still the only set with autorefit?
12:06:59 <frosch123> wow... why do i not have an up-to-date ogfx :o
12:25:14 <andythenorth> FISH 2 has it :P
12:25:22 <andythenorth> HEQS has it, but will throw errrors :P
12:28:40 <Zuu> Hmm, for the tutorial to have lower chance to get stuck it is useful to not wait for the event that the user click on a button but rather the effect that that button causes. Eg. listen for a vehicle to be started, a window to open etc. One thing that would be useful is to be able to poll which is the active tool.
12:29:21 <Zuu> Eg. to check if auto-road is active rather than waiting for the user to cilck on the auto-road button.
12:34:28 <Zuu> An example is a user that use a hotkey instead of clicking on the button himself. Then there is no event sent from OpenTTD to the tutorial.
12:34:55 <Zuu> Other issues may relate to save/load or a user doing things slightly different than planned.
12:44:17 <glx> another option would be to trigger the click event when the hotkey is used
12:45:06 <glx> but that's probably not easy to do
12:47:31 <Rubidium> and the user might have selected it before the script checks for it
12:48:00 <Rubidium> checking what 'state' the cursor is in, is not simple at all
12:49:39 <Rubidium> mostly because there's some structure that defines the behaviour of the drawing code w.r.t. the selection, but the actual commands are done using callbacks to the window that triggered it
12:50:08 <Rubidium> which means that several windows are keeping some sort of state of what exact building command was chosen
12:51:36 <Rubidium> e.g. all road building states look the same: show a square and all call the same callback
12:52:41 <Rubidium> which in effect means you need to make some second callback function that returns the actual 'state', and I wonder how well that's going to be kept in-sync as there's nothing validating that code to be there and/or to be correct
12:52:58 <Rubidium> and such a separate function is easily missed
12:53:21 <Rubidium> when adding a new thing to build
12:53:54 <Rubidium> probably the next thing for the state is what are they actually building; what if they build a tram track instead of road?
12:54:06 <Rubidium> which'll add another can of worms
12:54:22 <Rubidium> road types/rail types/industry types/...
13:10:16 <Zuu> Hmm, if in DIETY-mode, GSEngineList contains toyland engines in temparet...
13:10:31 <Zuu> Switching company mode to human player solves the issue.
13:13:28 <frosch123> Zuu: looks like a bug :)
13:13:58 <frosch123> i guess it should list all engines which are available to any company
13:14:15 <frosch123> or should it list all engines which become available in the future as well?
13:14:30 <Zuu> Company doesn't matter, unless you mean those that a specific company get a year ahead.
13:14:59 <Zuu> At least it should restrict to only the current climate.
13:15:22 <frosch123> yeah, a engine is either "not yet available", "available to single company only", "available to all companies" or "never available"
13:15:51 <frosch123> Zuu: yes, but what about the "not yet available" and "available to single company only"
13:16:10 <Zuu> It may be a point of showing also future and past engine in the DIETY list, but that may need an additional IsValidEngine function. Similar to how airport IDs are handled when they are being marked obsolate.
13:16:40 <frosch123> then you can as well switch to a specific company
13:17:24 <Zuu> local cm = GSCompanyMode(0); GSEngine.IsValidEngine(engine)
13:17:35 <Zuu> or similar to check if a engine is available to a given company.
13:18:51 <Zuu> and yes, it makes sense that a GS (tutorial) need to use company mode to check which engines that are available to the human company, as two different companies doesn't have exactly the same engines always.
13:19:17 <frosch123> i guess Engine::IsBuildable should only report engines buildable for all companies
13:19:57 <frosch123> Engine::IsValidEngine currently reports an expired engine as valid, as long as the company has one
13:20:04 <frosch123> what should gs do in that cse?
13:20:16 <frosch123> maybe it is best to let gs access al engines from past and future?
13:20:34 <Zuu> the GS either have to look if any company have a past vehicle or just give access to all past vehicles.
13:21:19 <Zuu> I think it may be a good idea to let GS to have access to past and future vehicles. If we ever add the ability for a GS to affect vehicle availability, that would be needed.
13:26:41 <Zuu> Rubidium: Thanks for your explanaition. I guess there is no easy solution there then. At best it might be possible to make hotkeys trigger the button, or add a way for GS to listen for hotkeys and at worst at GS level have the code that bind a widget with a hotkey.
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14:06:40 <Alberth> it's a bit early for that, but a good evening to you as well :)
14:07:29 <NGC3982> It's a darn heatwave here in sweden, and ive just come home from a long trip.
14:29:23 <Kjetil_> That is so scandinavian.. It's cold most of the year, but when it's hot people complain
14:31:20 <NGC3982> We don't have any systems to take care of the heat.
14:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> our trains have climate controls, but they often are broken. the older trains have openable windows instead
14:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, i should switch on the ventilator...
14:34:17 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I already finished, I'm back "home" already
14:34:20 <Alberth> in my experience, people open the window instead of letting the climate control do its thing, and then complain it is so warm in the train :p
14:35:26 <drush> I'd rather live where it's cold
14:35:48 <drush> because I can always dress thicker for colder weather
14:36:16 <Wolf01> <NGC3982> It's a darn heatwave here in sweden <- do you want to try live here?
14:36:23 <drush> but when it's hot then you can't really undress more if you're already naked
14:49:03 <Rubidium> I reckon drush therefor likes to be in Europa ;)
14:50:23 <drush> not in my part of Europe
14:50:48 <drush> we're getting african heats over here at vistula
14:52:38 <Rubidium> Europa has no such temperatures
14:53:09 <Rubidium> average temperature is in the eighties K
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14:55:37 <drush> I stand corrected, thanks
14:55:43 <Rubidium> in Europe it may be hot, in Europa it's not
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15:00:02 <swissfan91> dose anyone know if it's possible to code town buildings on sloped tiles? As in - so they don't have foundations?
15:02:44 <swissfan91> one other completely different question: is it possible to create a GRF that introduces a variable snow line, but one that means the snow climbs 10-15 height levels per month?
15:03:12 <Zuu> Rubidium: Could I be allowed to update the AI Library "Pathfinder.Road" on bananas? I will to start with commit my changes to dev-zone before uploading to bananas which I expect to take some time as I have made changes to a numerous of projects.
15:03:50 <Zuu> I had a discussion with Yexo earlier on the path to take regarding updating of the library.
15:06:20 <frosch123> swissfan91: you can set a snow line for every day in the year
15:06:45 <frosch123> one tile can melt/snow one density level every 2.5 days
15:09:19 * Zuu have just recently finished implementing the road chapter for the Tutorial. "Finished" here refering to that you can play it and all parts of the chapter works.
15:13:49 <Alberth> swissfan91: there are only 16 levels including ocean, so that amount of climbing runs out of levels very quickly
15:15:57 <swissfan91> Alberth: I'm using Chill's Patchpack. I know this isn't really OTTD so you may not be able to help..
15:16:30 <swissfan91> in CPP, with extra height levels, you can have a scenario which goes from 1-255 height levels, but the snow line currently only going between 2 and 9 or whatever it is..
15:16:35 <frosch123> oh, chill pp is so old, that it does not have grfv8, so i am not sure the snowlevel stuff works at all
15:17:12 <Alberth> frosch123: varying snowline Is quite old afaik
15:17:27 <frosch123> Alberth: but not in a more heightlevel compatible way
15:17:43 <swissfan91> 'd probably be holding out for some form of CPP which works with OTTD ~1.2.2 anyway
15:17:51 <swissfan91> I know CPP is on hold at the moment so this could be a while!
15:18:10 <Alberth> frosch123: given that it apparently varies between 2 and 9 I'd say it is pretty much broken already :p
15:18:30 <swissfan91> 2 and 15.. whatever it is :P
15:18:55 <swissfan91> whatever that figure is.. it's nothing near 255!
15:19:17 <Yexo> Rubidium: wrt Zuu's request: not sure how easy it is, but can you just give him access to all AI libraries that are currently under my account?
15:20:00 <swissfan91> when you say that snowline can move every day, I presume this means it can be done for all values in between? Say, every 7 days or something..
15:20:38 <frosch123> you just give a level for every day, you can give multiple days the same value
15:20:44 <Alberth> which is 14 or so levels
15:22:12 <Alberth> cpp should scale that to the heightlevel that you have imho, but like the heightmap, apparently they don't do that
15:30:40 <NGC3982> What on earth are "Cereals"?
15:35:30 <Markk> NGC3982: Frukostflingor.
15:36:42 <NGC3982> Markk: Even in FIRS? :D
15:37:30 <Markk> You'll have to specify what you're talking about
15:41:14 <NGC3982> Oh, cereals are frn, vete and stuff.
15:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> swissfan91: one of the main things done with grfv8 is prepare the varying snowheight (and other height stuff) for 256 heightlevels. so no, it's not possible to do that in CPP, but it would (likely, haven't checked) be possible in a trunk build with added heightlevel patch
15:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> swissfan91: my experience with a hacked snowline in CPP is that it looks weird if the snowline moves multiple levels
15:56:21 <NGC3982> I can't get a brewery to accept celears
15:56:29 <NGC3982> It's in the list of cargo waiting to be processed
15:56:41 <NGC3982> But i can't find a location near the industry that accepts it.
15:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that's a display problem
15:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: ECS disables input cargos, like oil for power stations before 1950-ish. but it can't remove that entry from the industry window
15:57:52 <NGC3982> Ah, i see. So my brewery will (eventually) accept cereals?
15:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what the rules are...
16:01:02 <NGC3982> Oh, it doesn't seem to be a display problem, but explicit rules about the agricultural vectors of ECS.
16:01:18 <NGC3982> As in: "Only Fruit or Cereals can be processed at the same time."
16:05:18 <Markk> You'll need to buy some teachers that can learn the plant to multitask. :)
16:05:46 <Markk> That would seriously have been funny. :D
16:06:54 <NGC3982> Well, an ECS Development Vector for the 1950's would ne neat.
16:21:00 <Rubidium> Yexo: I think I succeeded with that
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16:31:49 <drush> anyone knows if OTTD is compatible with SDL 1.3?
16:33:45 <Rubidium> given it's not released yet there's nothing definitive to be said about that
16:34:02 <Rubidium> they could have removed something OpenTTD uses a few minutes ago (or in a few minutes)
16:34:27 <drush> does OTTD use SDLK_LAST?
16:34:41 <Rubidium> I can't remember heard anyone claiming it didn't work, though can't remember claiming the opposite either
16:34:44 <drush> that's just one example that I've ran into on a code of a different game
16:35:05 <frosch123> i remember some commits which made something compile again
16:35:21 <frosch123> but that might be a year ago, so no idea what might hav echanged since then
16:35:31 <Rubidium> so I reckon it's better to actually test it yourself
16:35:43 <drush> I will also definitely need to screw around with os_abstraction in OTTD because glibc != ps3 libc
16:36:43 <drush> if you try to address ps3 libc like it was glibc, it just won't work
16:37:43 <kais58> I remember OTTD, used to Just Work on ps3 if you compiled it yourself,no reason for that to have changed
16:38:31 <Rubidium> except that <whoever makes the ps3> removed the support for running Linux on the thing
16:39:06 <kais58> on fedora that was,way back when it was easy, didnt try when I had linux on my ps3 after they removed it
16:39:23 <drush> kais58 I can compile anything on ps3Linux
16:39:39 <drush> but porting to gameos is different because it's for starters definitely not Linux
16:40:24 <kais58> wait,porting to GameOS? dont think taht's possible...not without a dev kit
16:41:58 <drush> me and taniwha over at #QuakeForge worked on adapting the source for ps3toolchain and we already have a .self that should run
16:42:35 <drush> but I can't test it until nobody uses the console in my house
16:43:41 <drush> the most obvious reason for porting to GameOS should be that it can access RSX for GPU acceleration, whereas Linux/BSD don't have that capability (yet)
16:44:16 <Rubidium> oh... hardware palette animation? ;)
16:44:58 <kais58> umm, yes it does...pretty sure theres a kernel module that adds it, but its not needed anyway, ran fine before
16:45:13 * Rubidium actually seriously wonders that as the newer the hardware the less likely it has hardware support for palette animation
16:45:28 <drush> kais58 there was a kernel module for that, yes
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16:45:49 <drush> hardware vendors patched it up when someone rendered 3D with rsx on Linux
16:46:23 <drush> oh, you mean glevand's kernel module?
16:47:37 <drush> that doesn't enable hardware acceleration, it just adds some infrastructure for an actual driver, which is still not done
16:47:58 <drush> afaik an actual driver needs to do lv1 syscalls for rsx
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19:12:25 <Zuu> Is "ChangeLog" a valid name of a content change log?
19:15:27 <Zuu> It appears that one must have .txt for it to work on an AI, so its probably the same for libraries if they ever get supported in GUI.
19:16:05 <Yexo> it has to be "changelog.txt"
19:16:22 <Yexo> if you use any caps it might break on cap-sensitive systems
19:18:27 <Alberth> ac changelog is often quite boring to read, you could also make a 'new features' like section in the readme
19:19:08 <Yexo> both is useful think, especially for things like libraries a changelog is important
19:21:26 <Zuu> I don't currently bother to write a readme, but including a changelog that point out the changes that AI authors need to do I find important enough to spend a few minutes on.
19:22:15 * andythenorth prepares to get yelled at
19:23:10 <andythenorth> I don't think the wool cargo is adding much to FIRS. I think it should be consolidated with Plant Fibres to form Fibres or Textile Fibres or Raw Textiles
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19:32:59 <Terkhen> Kjetil: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
19:33:06 <Terkhen> grab it at the online content
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19:40:42 <Zuu> Is there a sed/cli magican that know how to run a sed command for eg. *.nut and save each file after applying the s/../../g command?
19:41:33 <Zuu> For a single file I know I can use sed "s/\bAI/GS/g" main.nut > main.nut
19:41:43 <Zuu> but how do I turn that into operating on *.nut?
19:42:54 <Yexo> for f in *.nut; do sed ... $f > $f; done
19:43:48 <Yexo> sed "s/\bAI/GS/g" -i main.nut <- even shorter, no need to redirect the output to main.nut again
19:43:55 <frosch123> Zuu: use option "-i"
19:44:27 <Yexo> with -i you can probably give all files to sed
19:44:35 <Yexo> sed "s/\bAI/GS/g" -i *.nut <- like that
19:44:58 <Zuu> Im adding a nogo target to the Makefile that Yexo made for the RPF rather than creating a separate project when the changes needed are so simple that they can be expressed in a regex.
19:46:47 <Zuu> Thanks to renaming the AIOrder.AIOF_.. constants to not include AI in both AI and GS eddition, the AI<->GS conversion is really simple.
19:52:04 <Yexo> that does make it 1.2 and later only
19:52:10 <Yexo> I don't think that's a problem really
19:52:31 <Yexo> means CPP users will not only miss out on newgrfs, but also on AIs/GameScripts
19:53:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Fixed FIRS yet? :P
19:55:52 <andythenorth> I am considering trying to fix it with rm -r *
19:56:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Noooo! :-(
19:56:52 <FLHerne> Which bits were you insisting to be broken again?
19:57:25 <andythenorth> industry opening; too many cargos; game balance
19:57:57 <andythenorth> also I have player reports that Fishing Harbour is (was) broken, fish chain is defective, recycling chain is defective
19:58:06 <andythenorth> also supplies are broken (there is a patch, but I didn't test it)
19:58:10 <andythenorth> also industry closing is broken
19:58:23 <FLHerne> How 'too many cargos'? Perhaps a slightly different range, but 31 still isn't really enough anyway :P
19:58:44 <FLHerne> And what's wrong with the fish? Nightlies only?
19:58:56 * FLHerne hasn't noticed a fish problem :P
19:59:22 <andythenorth> it's broken for gameplay
20:00:25 <andythenorth> not enough harbours
20:00:28 <andythenorth> harbours in silly places
20:00:34 <andythenorth> fishing grounds production doesn't grow
20:00:41 <andythenorth> so the chain is considered pointless
20:00:47 <andythenorth> removing it would be beneficial
20:01:05 <FLHerne> But then I wouldn't be able to have fishing boats :-(
20:01:16 * FLHerne has >100 fishing boats :P
20:02:04 <FLHerne> Why don't fishing grounds increase production, though? I always thought that was a bit odd
20:04:09 <FLHerne> And you need land-based fish processors for later game, to keep mega-centralised-networkers happy :P
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20:06:56 <andythenorth> I could add land based fishing processors
20:07:02 <andythenorth> but I would rm the the fishing harbours
20:07:03 <NGC3982> Wait, seriosly? Im quite sure the do?
20:07:19 <andythenorth> fishing harbours are broken anyway, so removing them might be wise
20:07:32 <NGC3982> Instead of fixing it?
20:07:35 <FLHerne> You can't rm the harbours, just lower the max production and make them more buildable :P
20:07:55 <FLHerne> Make them a bit smaller, perhaps?
20:08:37 <FLHerne> They seem to have insanely restrictive building limits, which is a pain :P
20:08:43 <NGC3982> Or simply keep it, fix the harbour problem (what that might be) and alter the production.
20:09:00 <NGC3982> Removing good stuff instead of replacing them sounds not-so-great.
20:09:14 <andythenorth> broken things should be removed not fixed
20:09:27 <NGC3982> By the way, what's wrong with them?
20:09:50 <FLHerne> There are never more than 3 or so, and those tend to be in useless places :-(
20:10:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, fixed not removed :P
20:10:42 <FLHerne> They're one of my favourite chains :-)
20:12:31 <FLHerne> But they're not [i]that[/i] rotten
20:12:56 <FLHerne> Can't you just make them easier to build? Then it'll be fine :-)
20:13:29 <FLHerne> With fish: make production fall if %transported is high, and vice versa :P
20:13:36 <FLHerne> Like real fish stocks :P
20:13:46 <FLHerne> That would be more interesting
20:14:15 <andythenorth> in what way(s) are they hard to build?
20:15:37 <FLHerne> Need specific coast/water shapes, and didn't they need to be close to towns?
20:15:56 <FLHerne> So it needs lots of fiddling and terraforming to create a place to build them
20:16:12 <NGC3982> I guess that wouldnt help autogenerating them.
20:16:23 <andythenorth> town restriction is removed since yesterday
20:16:37 <andythenorth> you shouldn't need to terraform, assuming you have enough clear water
20:16:44 <andythenorth> it will adapt to most coast shapes
20:17:09 <FLHerne> Yay. Must try nightlies
20:17:20 <FLHerne> How often do you break them? :P
20:19:33 <andythenorth> intentionally, not often
20:22:38 <andythenorth> should be ok with 0.7.x ish
20:23:39 * FLHerne needs to write a script to auto-download latest nightlies :P
20:24:59 * NGC3982 don't even know how nightlies work.
20:25:44 <andythenorth> I got bored of my lovely game
20:25:54 <andythenorth> as soon as the money is flowing, all challenge is gone
20:26:29 <FLHerne> Yeah, but then you can swap challenge for fun :P
20:26:41 <andythenorth> connecting trains is not fun
20:26:49 <FLHerne> Have you got around to CargoDist yet?
20:27:14 <andythenorth> no, it has zero appeal
20:27:26 <NGC3982> andythenorth: The same goes for me.
20:28:08 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But it allows you to build pax networks that actually work. It's better than default or YACD, anyway :P
20:28:17 <NGC3982> ..Aaaand now im going bancrupt, again.
20:28:28 <andythenorth> building networks is boring
20:28:39 <FLHerne> NGC3982: WHAT kinds of settings are you using!?
20:28:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Build ships instead :P
20:29:00 <andythenorth> my game was fun with trams and ships
20:29:03 <andythenorth> now I have stupid trains
20:29:30 <FLHerne> If you hate having money, take care to build only inefficient pax branches :P
20:29:45 * FLHerne likes twiddly branch lines
20:30:32 * andythenorth needs to write a GS
20:30:40 <andythenorth> but GS is broken for industries
20:38:26 <Zuu> FLHerne: Such scripts have been written before for both bash and Windows.
20:38:45 <Zuu> You could add it to crontab if you wish:-)
20:39:22 <Zuu> Although that is a bit wasteful unless you play last nightly every day
20:39:36 <Zuu> Better to use a wrapper that fetch last version before you start OpenTTD.
20:42:16 <FLHerne> Zuu: I probably will. SHouldn't be too hard to do that with wget :-)
20:42:58 <Zuu> The actual update is fairly easy to do
20:43:36 <Zuu> And you can probably just grep a bit in finger.openttd.org without properly parsing that format for your needs.
20:45:06 * andythenorth is having an 'everything is broken' kind of day
20:45:11 <andythenorth> maybe the sky is falling
20:45:29 <FLHerne> Zuu: No, newgrf nightlies :P
20:45:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What broke?
20:47:08 <FLHerne> Zuu: Perhaps, I could've been clearer, but I thought it made sensse in context :P
20:47:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Really? Your house collapsed? :P
20:47:40 <andythenorth> fundamentally, no matter how many newgrf / map combinations I try, OpenTTD is boring
20:47:46 <andythenorth> it's just a boring game
20:48:20 <NGC3982> Hey, what in the name of Elmo is this
20:48:49 <NGC3982> andythenorth: You might need a break.
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20:49:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Make/find an interesting scenario, then play multiplayer with IS2 and CDist :P
20:49:36 <andythenorth> does it have any purpose?
20:50:37 <FLHerne> Fun, entertainment and enjoyable fun for all the family :D . Or something.
20:50:57 <andythenorth> goal / purpose /s
20:52:25 <FLHerne> Invent your own goal :P . I want to monopolise all towns on the west of the map and make my brother's route unprofitable :P
20:53:08 <andythenorth> I've tried playing with others, it doesn't work
20:53:31 <FLHerne> Why not? Seems to work fine here :-)
20:53:45 <drac_boy> hmm just wondering, what builds is cargodist in?
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20:54:43 <FLHerne> drac_boy: CPP, HPP, Hard Game Pack (IIRC)...
20:55:06 <FLHerne> Oh, and the standard CD-only ones of course :P
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20:58:14 <andythenorth> so how is the queuing problem solved in rl?
20:58:29 <andythenorth> why aren't industries surrounded by huge loops of road full of trucks?
20:59:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Because trains, trams or ships are far more appropriate for that amount of traffic :P
20:59:41 <drac_boy> FLHerne hmm cpp as in chill?
20:59:58 <FLHerne> Trucks are for distributing mail/building supplies/whatever in towns, not major industries :P
21:00:32 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Aye. That's annoyingly outated now though, HPP is better if less complete and buggier :P
21:00:35 <drac_boy> heh FLHerne I kinda have to agree..its silly to see these massive road circles when just one single tram station or a short rail platform would do
21:01:19 <drac_boy> FLHerne mmm well was just wondering as I liked it (as per chill's version) but its nowwhere to be seen in the official build tho :-(
21:01:36 <andythenorth> see a lot of freight trams in rl? :P
21:01:56 <drac_boy> and not just germany either
21:02:10 <FLHerne> Didn't you say those represented light industrial railways too?
21:02:12 <drac_boy> usa actually had some urban freight trams too
21:02:12 <andythenorth> trams are worse than trucks
21:02:16 <andythenorth> they are far longer
21:02:37 <drac_boy> a few of them had their own specific tight-curves freight boxcars that could not interchange with standard trains due to mechanical rules
21:02:37 <andythenorth> my simple farm network requires covering the map in tram tracks
21:02:42 <FLHerne> If you need so many it's silly, get a train :D
21:02:57 <andythenorth> trains need even more infrastructure
21:03:04 * FLHerne waits for unelectrified tramtracks
21:03:13 <FLHerne> Those would look much better
21:03:27 <FLHerne> And since when have farms needed huge road circles?
21:03:29 <drac_boy> FLHerne I actually asked about that once ... three types of company roads
21:03:51 <drac_boy> 1. electrified rails 2. nonelectrified rails 3. electrified roads
21:03:56 <drac_boy> #3 is for trolleybuses aye
21:04:06 <rails> i dont like being electrified :(
21:04:17 <drac_boy> and #2 would look much better in HEQS where you have steam powered trams anyway
21:04:25 <andythenorth> roadtypes won't happen
21:04:53 <FLHerne> They will eventually. Too many people want them :-)
21:05:02 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh yeah that was the point :)
21:05:53 <drac_boy> anyway that actually reminds me tho..
21:06:29 <andythenorth> roadtypes are very unlikely
21:06:38 <drac_boy> I know you can make it that certain wagons can't be added to a locomotive but can you even make it that you can't have more than one locomotive in a single train tho?
21:06:39 <andythenorth> they don't add anything to gameplay, just more complications
21:06:51 <drac_boy> andythenorth then why did they add multiply rail types if its still the same trains?
21:06:59 <andythenorth> that may have been a mistake
21:07:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Some people like complications :P
21:07:17 <andythenorth> railtypes are not necessarily a good iea
21:07:24 <andythenorth> they may have made things worse
21:07:40 <FLHerne> Ideally, I'd like at least 32 railtypes and 64 cargos :-)
21:08:13 <drac_boy> andythenorth I would had used only one single loop of tram tracks and call it a day
21:08:16 <drac_boy> that is way overdoing it :)
21:08:54 <drac_boy> nope... would only need like 9-10 tiles :)
21:09:00 <andythenorth> drac_boy: how do you drop off if you have 20 tiles of trams waiting to pickup?
21:09:03 <drac_boy> compared to that I see at least 30+ in that
21:09:12 <FLHerne> That bus exploded 2 seconds later :-(
21:09:38 <drac_boy> hehe you and your bad road/rail manners :P
21:09:58 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Actually, I quite like yours :-)
21:10:15 * Zuu have just dominated the "Latest 10 additions" screen at bananas :-p
21:10:16 <NGC3982> FLHerne: I wish i could play that realisticly.
21:10:30 <andythenorth> FLHerne: doesn't your dairy block horribly?
21:10:54 <andythenorth> is that PBS or a pre-signal on the exit?
21:11:11 <andythenorth> also your FIRS sucks
21:11:13 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not really. I think I doubled the entrance track at some point :-) All PBS around there
21:11:54 <andythenorth> so the middle track is pickup?
21:12:08 <andythenorth> what happens when your second food train wants to wait for cargo?
21:12:18 <andythenorth> you'll have horrible contention
21:12:32 <FLHerne> No, the two on the left are pickup. Middle is drop ;-)
21:12:51 <andythenorth> all is well in that case
21:13:09 * andythenorth starts planning FIRS 2
21:13:14 <andythenorth> it might be quite different
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21:13:47 * FLHerne wonders where andy went :P
21:13:57 <drac_boy> FLHerne mm interesting minimal use of signals
21:14:11 <drac_boy> I sometimes kinda do the same thing in a mix of programmable signal and/or pbs myself as well
21:16:22 <drac_boy> FLHerne nothing like reserving a platform for only goods-loaded trains and everything else can't touch it :)
21:16:33 <FLHerne> I never really figured out the progsigs :-(
21:16:51 <FLHerne> Perhaps I should have another look...
21:18:21 <drac_boy> mm its not too difficult for me to get hang of it although I should tell you that this is from someone who plays the patch a lot :)
21:22:26 * FLHerne examines a small hamster :-)
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