IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-17
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08:55:41 <Supercheese> Good night, actually
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09:57:40 <Dodez> Does the industry grow in FIRS like in vanilla ottd ?
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10:58:31 <drac_boy> how're all you three?
11:02:25 <drac_boy> btw was just thinking about this slight odd question, do one-way road affect or not affect trams? I'm guessing latter but hmm
11:03:10 <drac_boy> yeah I couldn't imagine a tram coming to one facing it and 'freeze' :)
11:03:51 <V453000> makes trams a bit less controllable [utterly dumb] .)
11:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> this whole thing needs a better concept
11:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> one-way roads are pretty useless
11:06:27 <V453000> not really it gives road vehicles at least some control similar to train signals
11:06:30 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah, I've never bothered with the grf that added it to the patch anyway
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11:11:59 <Phazorx> coopers use one way roads to direct road traffic to loading array, you can pack 4 vehicles to single lorry/bus station in that fashion
11:18:00 <V453000> depends where really, sometimes 2way roads do not hurt anything either, but for the sake of at least some system on the network I think you always need at least some 2way roads
11:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: ok, it gives you "control"... but what for?
11:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: other than forbidding the road that leads across a railway crossing, i have never seen a use for it. and since then, the pathfinder has been adapted to avoid crossings
11:19:34 <V453000> for evading an inevitable mess of 2way roads?
11:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: while for rails, making them one-way increases capacity, for road it reduces capacity
11:20:19 <V453000> when you reach serious amount of RVs and need to split traffic into multiple roads, 1ways are 100% necessary
11:20:44 <V453000> yeah, capacity of a single roads; but 2 way roads cant really be managed well in large scale
11:21:37 <V453000> RVs would start turning around in spots and doing similar stuff
11:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: that only "works" because LV4 does not have articulated vehicles
11:22:45 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: what's the problem with a-vehicle?
11:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: they can't overtake
11:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a code restriction
11:24:37 <V453000> if there were 2way roads, RVs would start to randomly go around stuff
11:24:51 <V453000> it is a bit of an extreme case, but ..
11:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a road connection missing on the left
11:25:56 <V453000> you cant really make RVs detect if the line is full or not with a priority so sometimes you just have to cut the option :)
11:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what i mean: if one-way roads would have a sane concept how it can occupy both lanes, it would probably need a much smaller junction
11:27:51 <V453000> well yeah but that doesnt technically change anything in the general logic of road vehicles
11:27:58 <V453000> like ... signals on bridges
11:28:09 <V453000> yeah, allows to make things smaller, but generally doesnt reach anything
11:28:38 <V453000> I think there should remain the decision of "do I waste throughput by 1way road or can I maintain 2way roads"
11:28:50 <V453000> just like "do I have single bridge enough, or do I need to multiply"
11:29:12 <V453000> both making 1way roads "sane" or having signals on bridges would remove such option, adding no other
11:30:20 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: why is there such code restriction btw?
11:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: nobody ever touched that code to adapt it to articulated vehicles
11:30:58 <drac_boy> Phazorx probably to do with first section following second section
11:31:27 <drac_boy> as I recall some time ago there was some bugs about bus leaving depot but the second section did not quite "follow" first one :)
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11:52:19 <drac_boy> what do you think of canals? (not rivers yeah)
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11:54:04 <V453000> ships dont exist in openttd.
11:56:10 <drush> V453000 what do you mean they don't
12:01:12 <__ln___> they dont or they don't?
12:01:40 <drush> is there a word like "dont"?
12:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> first result of google is french :)
12:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and then lots of "don't"
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12:14:32 <V453000> why do you make a screenshot of empty lake with a shore
12:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i just see a bunch of pixels... what was the point?
12:16:23 <V453000> nothing so stupid exists in openttd
12:20:10 <Phazorx> this reminds me of FS#1063
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12:22:01 <NGC3982> drush: I dont understand. What's wrong?
12:22:26 <drush> NGC3982 supposedly ships don't exist in this game
12:25:50 <V453000> I like the amount of confusion I caused
12:26:23 <drush> I can agree that they don't exist as a means of making srs cash
12:26:42 <drush> they're helpful for when you can't afford infrastructure
12:27:20 <NGC3982> I think i should leave this discussion before i get some kind of stroke.
12:27:22 <V453000> even if they made billions per second it would not make them less dumb to use
12:28:07 <drush> while they make money, remember about the first principle of investment
12:28:17 <NGC3982> Im sorry, but different vehicles exists to ccreate diversity, right?
12:28:22 * drac_boy actually prefers to use ships at times
12:28:27 <drac_boy> NGC3982 agreed with you
12:28:53 <drush> I prefer ships on small maps because building lots of infrastructure ruins your reputation with local auths
12:29:03 <drush> thus ruining your bzns prospects
12:29:16 * NGC3982 loves hem because they are cute and make up fun games.
12:30:32 <drush> also, ships are immune to disasters
12:31:08 <drush> I never saw a ship get mauled by an incoming train or crash on the landing strip
12:31:23 <drush> but that'd be fun to watch though
12:33:50 <drac_boy> heh I use small ships if I'm finding that the land-going option means going a bit of long way around plus long bridge spans .. which sometimes isn't worth it if its only a hundred tonnes each month or so
12:34:59 <Phazorx> Rubidium... we should have an iceberg-like disaster
12:35:11 <Phazorx> ships are meant to sink
12:35:38 <drac_boy> Phazorx problem is.. iceberg != tropical
12:35:48 <Phazorx> drush: this game is actualy about ifrastructure management, ships and planes are 2 vehicle types that require none
12:36:08 <drush> drac_boy in tropical we could have nigerian/somalian pirates instead ;)
12:36:16 <Phazorx> planes at least queue for landings, ships just pile up everywhere defying every imaginable space constraints
12:36:24 <drac_boy> Phazorx did you forgot about landscaping and property useage? :)
12:36:33 <Phazorx> which is none for ships
12:36:40 <drac_boy> Phazorx actually..there is
12:36:51 <drac_boy> docks...the depots...any canals privately owned...etc
12:37:07 <drac_boy> and buoys if you want to count that as land property as well
12:37:08 <Phazorx> 6 tiles (and that is including the docks) are you kidding me?
12:37:14 <drush> is that ships can stack on each other
12:37:16 <drac_boy> Phazorx .. more than 10 at times
12:37:25 <drush> planes, cars and trains cannot overlay each other
12:37:37 <Phazorx> oh geez... mainatance for shipline is almsot like a half of my single station?
12:38:02 <drush> which isn't really possible
12:38:03 <drac_boy> drush problem is...how do you have a northbound ship and southbound ship "meet" at a single-width canal? hence why its done like that on purpose
12:38:25 <drac_boy> roads at least already come with 2 lanes
12:38:31 <drush> drac_boy I think they could wait at the other side of the canal until its clear
12:38:42 <drac_boy> drush that'll be complicated..how do you even tell what a water route is then?
12:39:13 <drush> we can assume that water works just like roads
12:39:38 <drush> and that canals work like signalized railroads
12:39:44 <drac_boy> drush and calculate 900+ water tiles each tick? I'm still too unsure about that
12:40:19 <drac_boy> yeah, these alternative ship pathfinders still don't exactly do much else for cpu load on some servers yet
12:47:43 <drac_boy> drush at least if theres one thing comforting..its that its not only ships
12:47:56 <drac_boy> planes actually don't 'see' each others as soon as they are out of any airport zones :)
12:48:11 <drac_boy> otherwise there would had been a lot of mid-air crashes :)
12:54:37 <Phazorx> more aestetically worring the fact that planes dont see buildings
12:55:02 <drac_boy> only happens at mountaintop skyscapers as far as I can tell :)
12:55:38 <Phazorx> happens all the time with ttrs and perhaps even default if there are buildings right at the end of runaway
12:55:56 <drac_boy> oh runaway...well yeah that figures now
12:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: but opposing to simcity, you have no way of controlling the buildings here
12:56:50 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: well actually you do, and pretty much same way as in real world
12:57:08 <Phazorx> you buy/lock area around
12:57:55 <Phazorx> while you can not control what kind of buildings can be there, you can avoid having them at all
12:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds stupid
12:59:18 <Phazorx> have you seen many large airports situated in busy downtonws?
12:59:21 <drac_boy> I'm going off for a bit... be back later tho :)
12:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: berlin tegel?
13:00:49 <Phazorx> looking at gmaps... cant even find runaway there
13:01:18 <Phazorx> we;; it has forest around it
13:01:21 <Phazorx> quite a bit of forest
13:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also the smaller berlin tempelhof, but that one is already closed
13:02:04 <Phazorx> people generally dont enjoy sounds of jets, so it;s quite understandable that no one wants to live/work there even if it would be allowed
13:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well tegel was supposed to get closed 2 months ago
13:02:53 <Phazorx> there are a few that actualy are in downtown
13:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but they had a major fuckup with the new airport
13:03:23 <Phazorx> but their runaways are facing water
13:03:59 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: my point still stands - there should be no building (especially tall) next to runaways
13:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the new airport was supposed to be in schönefeld, which is directly outside of city borders
13:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: make a newairports grf with larger airport area surrounding the runway then
13:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> (can only expand the two lower directions though, as afaik there is no way to move the "anchor point" of the state machine from the northern tile)
13:05:36 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: probably not quite proper aproach
13:05:58 <Phazorx> imho there should be 2 mechanisms in action
13:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: it's the approach that is permitted by current gameplay mechanics
13:06:44 <Phazorx> 1st you are not supposed to place airport to close to existing town, and second there should be a growth limitting factor in area nearbay so town would go around expanding
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13:07:19 <Phazorx> noise as factor i think already is sort of "considered"
13:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes it is. but it fails to override noise factor of a small town if a big city nearby demands a large airport
13:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which is "not realistic"
13:08:18 <V453000> welcome to realistic discussion Belugas :)
13:09:41 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: sounds liek matter of priorities, and while some municipality demands airport it's up to player to figure out where to put it
13:13:56 <Belugas> it's always the player who decides everything, anyway..
13:15:04 <Phazorx> Belugas: i mean the engine has contraints and player makes decisions on how to comply to them best from own interest point of view
13:17:01 <Belugas> so the other way around would be to have towns specifying in which area an airport would be desirable, an what type, further more
13:17:25 <Phazorx> Belugas: and then you need town/city limits to figure out authority
13:17:29 <Phazorx> and it's a whole differnt game then
13:18:39 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: i do similar setups in "natuarl looking games"
13:18:48 <Phazorx> even for large stations
13:19:07 <Phazorx> having local commuter network and feeders for large terminals is an obvious choice imo
13:20:00 <Phazorx> and having roads as grouth restraints is pretty much what i said earlier about player owning area next to runaways
13:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> this was a YACD came, btw.
13:20:20 <Phazorx> i still cant get to yacd to work with recent version though
13:20:38 <Phazorx> do you have an updated repo somewhere or you just use old verion?
13:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a really old version
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16:24:34 <c_korn> hello, I have problem with openttd 1.2.2 on Ubuntu 12.04. after first starting the game and downloading OpenGFX-0.4.4 the download progress stops at 99% and the only output on the terminal is: shm_open() failed: Function not implemented
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16:38:08 <c_korn> forget what I said. /dev/shm was missing in my chroot. works now. soon to be published on playdeb.net
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17:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't understand simearth... technology advanced kinda fast until industrial and atomic age, but the atomic always dies out...
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17:39:44 * NGC3982 notes to V453000 that Zombie Slain still is one of the better engine names ever.
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17:45:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24478 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
17:45:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 3 changes by Phreeze
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18:00:02 <andythenorth> I want to type /moi in irc instead of /me
18:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just a matter of setting up an alias
18:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on your client
18:05:10 <andythenorth> my client is not clever
18:05:19 <andythenorth> anyway, been thinking about FIRS primaries
18:05:45 <andythenorth> they should probably, under certain conditions, be allowed to close
18:06:08 <andythenorth> I prevent them closing entirely (parameter option), which keeps the map relatively full of them
18:06:18 <andythenorth> which is a problem for new industries
18:07:45 <Alberth> today I thought about letting newgrf know of the state of an industry-type
18:08:33 <Alberth> that is, whether there are not enough or too many of a type
18:08:48 <andythenorth> the probability is supposed to signal that
18:08:56 <andythenorth> it's limited / obscure ?
18:09:24 <andythenorth> I'm not going to change any of this in FIRS btw until there is more plan :)
18:09:27 <andythenorth> but I had some ideas
18:09:46 <Alberth> probability says how many there should be, not how many there actually are
18:10:12 <Alberth> the latter is needed if a newgrf is going to decide what to do
18:10:41 <Alberth> unless we move that decision to the game engine completely :p
18:11:46 <Alberth> ie suppose there are supposed to be 10 of a type, but there are 5, so the type can get info like "50% coverage" or so
18:12:36 <Alberth> on the other hand, when there are 12 present, you'd get "120%"
18:12:56 <Alberth> which could then be used by the newgrf whether or not to close down
18:14:13 <andythenorth> that can be done now, cb29 / 35 and var 67 or similar
18:14:36 <andythenorth> wonder if it would be nice?
18:14:51 <andythenorth> might need to stay within bounds, not aim for a single integer target
18:15:03 <andythenorth> otherwise every game tends to same industry mix
18:19:34 <Alberth> var67 sounds terribly complicated
18:20:33 <Alberth> also, you cannot add all probabilities of the industries, so you cannot compute your own relative amount that you should have
18:23:06 <andythenorth> and I'd have to map scale it
18:23:38 <andythenorth> and it would be more code to maintain :P
18:29:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just make an alias for /moi to /me ;)
18:32:06 <Kjetil_> hm. shouldn't the amount of industries in a area follow the population count of nearby towns ?
18:35:12 <Kjetil_> Industries needs workers
18:36:15 <Alberth> industries have underground dungeons where they keep their workers
18:37:03 <Rubidium> actually, only two industries need workers: steel mills and oil rigs. With oil rigs you got a pretty good chance to return, but steel mill workers are used as coal
18:39:39 <Kjetil_> I guess if one where aiming for realism the industry mix would be dependent on the current decade
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18:41:29 <NGC3982> Alberth: Like in Dungeon Keeper?
18:41:43 <NGC3982> The steel mill does look like a potential top of the Dungeon Keeper scenes.
18:41:44 <Alberth> no idea, never played that
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18:47:49 <NGC3982> Oh fart. How i hate pressing the wrong buttons in the town window.
18:48:34 <Kjetil_> Did you pay for road reconstruction ?
18:49:10 <Rubidium> just turn the undo knob!
18:49:23 <Kjetil_> turn it all the way to eleven
18:49:51 <NGC3982> My word, FIRS+NUTS is fantastic.
18:51:24 <drush> perfect for ruining competitor's urban transport
18:51:40 <drush> much better than traing-camping
18:53:02 <NGC3982> I find myself reluctant on playing that aggressively
18:54:30 <drush> NGC3982 it's just business
18:55:16 <drush> but yeah if you can afford a new train to run over a few of your competitor's cars,
18:55:25 <drush> then why not also ruin their local auth rep
18:55:53 <drush> "competitor transport blazes in a fireball. 25 killed. don't ride their buses!"
18:58:23 <Kjetil_> now if we only added ground-to-air missiles
19:00:51 <NGC3982> "Cannot deliver goods to station. Town evaporated."
19:03:00 <Kjetil_> "Umbrella corporations HQ bombed. Company president killed."
19:03:20 <andythenorth> how do I strip all .orig files from a src dir?
19:03:41 <andythenorth> needs to recurse
19:04:01 <andythenorth> it's deeply nested python packages :P
19:04:16 <andythenorth> "flat is better", except in python packages :P
19:04:19 <Alberth> find src -type f -name "*.orig" -exec rm "{}" ";"
19:04:43 <Alberth> or somewhat safer: find src -type f -name "*.orig" | xargs rm
19:05:15 <Alberth> (safer as in you can leave out the "| xargs rm" part :D
19:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what's "safer" with leaving out xargs than with leaving out -exec?
19:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the second version fails with spaces
19:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> needs -print0 | xargs -0
19:30:36 <michi_cc> Alberth: How about just passing -delete to find? No problem with spaces, strange chars or whatever.
19:32:10 <Alberth> useful to know, thanks
19:53:50 <Muxy> Yexo: i put some stuff for NoAI VehicleOld, if you have some time, can you, please, take a look at it ?
19:55:57 <andythenorth> Friday night, and andythenorth is doing work
20:22:49 <Yexo> Muxy: later this weekend
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22:57:50 <AsteconnL> Greetings all! My name isn't Dave
23:01:19 <TrueBrain> owh, this will take a while; how long do you have?
23:01:32 <AsteconnL> I'm likely to be awake until 4am BST o.o
23:01:33 <V453000> I just feel like in a lunatic asylum where a new insane person comes and introduces themself ... especially saying "My name isnt..."
23:02:03 <TrueBrain> I think it is Dave, and it is just to make us burst our heads
23:03:20 <AsteconnL> You would be incorrect, sir!
23:08:49 <AsteconnL> Depending on the target of your initial statement you are either correct or incorrect.
23:09:39 <Wakou> Is there any news about 32bpp? the game is not as good any more.
23:09:58 <Wakou> How do i regress my install to when it worked?
23:13:05 <Mazur> Radical way: remove the lot and reinstall. Less radical: identify which newGRFs are 32npp and remove those.
23:15:37 <AsteconnL> Gentlemen - I am struggling to decide upon a locomotive for my network, needed for a short passenger linem, with UKRS2. I have narrowed it down to the choice of either the 0-6-0 Austerity, the 2-6-2 Ivatt, the 4-4-2 suburban, or the 0-6-0 Pannier. I could use the Railcar, but it's not terribly reliable
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23:18:23 <Mazur> You play with breakdowns?
23:18:52 <Mazur> Sorry, hardly any masochists around here.
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23:24:19 <Melkyore> I hate not asking about asking a question
23:25:04 <Melkyore> Is there a way to track company progress in a multiplayer game from outside the server?
23:25:29 <Melkyore> For example, a php script queries the server for income, expenditure, etc
23:26:30 <Melkyore> It's unexplored territory?
23:26:38 <Mazur> You can attach a script or something to the console.
23:27:15 <Melkyore> The idea is that it writes to a sort of log file?
23:27:36 <Mazur> by regularly issuing a console query.
23:27:45 *** Mazur was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
23:28:20 <Asteconn> That was quite random
23:28:53 <Melkyore> Unfortunately, the data returned by executing "companies" in the console is very bare
23:28:59 <Mazur> If I did that on one of our game server IRC channels, a bot would relay hte command to the game and the output back into the channel.
23:29:55 <Mazur> The bots also issue similar command every 5 minutes or so and log the output.
23:30:50 <Mazur> But indeed the companies command gives sparse information, which is why I said "sort of".
23:31:19 <Mazur> It gives the info we desire, though, so none has thought to expand it.
23:31:37 <Melkyore> That is rather unfortunate
23:33:29 <Melkyore> Yes, this is excellent
23:53:59 <Asteconn> So why don't you play with breakdowns?
continue to next day ⏵
