IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-27
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07:09:20 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
07:09:51 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b *!*@dyndsl-031-150-016-047.ewe-ip-backbone.de
07:10:09 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b *!~ttdpatch@*
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07:12:36 * NGC3982 have started playing a lot of FISH
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07:46:26 <Supercheese> Valete, amici, I'm off to bed
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08:41:29 <Alberth> talking about insane plans :)
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11:06:40 * telanus prods terkhen with a super sheep
11:07:23 <telanus> My Afrikaans translation of OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles is on the Forum
11:10:11 * peter1138 notes that hg works better on a mercurial repository than git...
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11:11:38 <xavexgoem> Any AI people around here? I'm thinking AITile.IsBuildable() is broken
11:12:20 <xavexgoem> Or maybe I'M broken and can't tell what's going wrong
11:12:54 <Alberth> given the quite fundamental feature, I suspect the latter until proven otherwise :)
11:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> xavexgoem: maybe you start with what you're trying to achieve, what you expected how it works, and how it actually works?
11:21:25 <Alberth> xavexgoem: how do you think it is broken?
11:35:25 <xavexgoem> Sure. I'm trying to build a one-way road station a few random tiles away from an industry. I can't have the station be directly adjacent to an industry and facing it at the same time, since you can't build a road leading out. So I call IsBuildable(tile), where tile is the tile leading out
11:36:02 <xavexgoem> It's supposed to try and find another location if IsBuildable fails, but it always succeeds
11:37:00 <xavexgoem> So the station is built and it's useless
11:38:23 <xavexgoem> if(!AITile.IsBuildable(stationTileFront)) continue;
11:45:14 <Alberth> what's in front of it then? IsBuildable does look like a function that often returns true
11:45:43 <xavexgoem> Typically the actual footpront of the industry, like a sawmill or a coal mine
11:45:55 <xavexgoem> Something you certainly can't build over
11:47:38 <Alberth> did you check the tile coordinates of the check? did you test IsBuildable on an industry tile (to confirm the result)
11:48:34 <xavexgoem> Yes, I always run AISign.BuildSign(stationTileFront,"blahblahblah") after the station is built
11:49:00 <xavexgoem> Between that if statement up there and the sign building, stationTileFront never changes
11:55:09 <xavexgoem> Although now that I do an explicit check... weird
11:59:20 <Alberth> I am looking for a way to check whether a tile belongs to an industry, as that would confirm its broken-ness, but no luck so far
12:01:05 <xavexgoem> I'm actually building the sign right before I make the check. The odd thing is if I run isBuildable on a known tile (e.g., IsBuildable(AIMap.GetTileIndex(x,y))), it returns false
12:01:13 <xavexgoem> So I'm probably doing something vexing
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12:03:48 <xavexgoem> ahh... seems to work for if(AITile.IsBuildable(stationTileFront) == false) continue;
12:05:34 <Alberth> yeah that would be weird :)
12:13:23 <xavexgoem> Goddamnit, I see what I've done
12:13:59 <xavexgoem> Wait, no I don't. Wow.
12:14:01 <Alberth> GetIndustryID(TileIndex tile) gives you an industry ID if the tile is at an industry tile
12:19:16 <xavexgoem> I've pasted it in, if you want to take a look
12:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the random for?
12:21:21 <xavexgoem> I want the station to be near, but I don't really care where
12:21:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean for "front"
12:21:45 <xavexgoem> Face a random direction
12:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> one would assume "front" is always 1 tile away
12:22:08 <xavexgoem> With that it always will be
12:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but that may get you the same tile, or diagonal tiles
12:22:19 <xavexgoem> Sometimes at a diagonal, which'll fail the station biuld, but that's OK
12:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to do "+ random(2)?+1:-1"
12:33:48 <xavexgoem> That works better. Station is still wonky.
12:37:48 <xavexgoem> Updated the pastebin. The weirdness increases: I check IsBuildable outside the loop, and it DOES give the correct results, even after just building a bad station
12:53:44 <xavexgoem> and in closing, it completely goes away if you use an infinite loop broken out of if the station build succeeds. No idea why.
12:53:50 <planetmaker> xavexgoem, building a new station on top of one of your existing stations is feasible and allowed
12:53:55 <planetmaker> Thus the tile remains "buildable"
12:54:16 <xavexgoem> That wasn't the issue, though. It was saying an actual building was buildable
12:54:47 <xavexgoem> Now it doesn't, but that's by making a seemingly unrelated change
12:56:53 <xavexgoem> So instead of "do { ... } while (!AIRoad.BuildRoad(...))", it's while(true) { ... if(AIRoad.BuildRoad(...) } Ooooooooohhh
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13:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that happened in SC2000 sometimes
13:43:45 <planetmaker> haha, nice, Alberth ! :-)
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14:56:01 <Aztec> hi everyone. :) I've been looking through NewGRFs to enhance OpenTTD and stumbeld across the 2cc TrainSet. It's looking good but is anyone actually using it? Those train prices are so~ high or am I just to bad at openttd to afford them?
14:59:12 * Terkhen is back home for the holidays
15:01:11 <telanus> Aztec they are a bit on the expensive side
15:01:35 <Terkhen> Aztec: IIRC you can adjusts the cost via parameter
15:02:23 <Aztec> Hi Terkhen *hands a beverage of your liking*
15:03:07 <Aztec> Thanks for the hint, i should've checked sooner and also thanks telanus.
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15:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: traditionally, "the holidays" means christmas/newyear
15:23:33 <Terkhen> as long as I don't have to work, you can call them as you like
15:32:03 * Belugas is leaving for vacations tonigh as well. 2 well deserved weeks
15:32:18 <Terkhen> indeed, I hope you enjoy them :)
15:32:23 <Belugas> even if work@home4home is scheduled :S
15:32:36 <Alberth> have a very good time, Belugas
15:32:45 <Belugas> i might. At least, i'll see my son and wife 24/7*2 ;)
15:32:52 <Belugas> i'll try to, Alberth :)
15:33:25 <Belugas> and hopefully, sir peter1138, we'll have time to jam in my brand new studio :D
15:34:06 <Alberth> a studio is no good if you cannot use it :)
15:36:29 <Aztec> Sounds nice. I'm still undecied where i want to spend my next vacation. :/ There are so many possibilities but so I'd have to learn so many new languages to make the best of it.
15:38:56 <Belugas> indeed, Alberth :) That's why it's my main priority for the vacations. I'm tired to hear complains about the strange sounds my guit makes while practicing.
15:40:11 <Belugas> Aztec, yuo know, with english, you can get pretty much everywhere, these days. or so i am encline to believe
15:40:29 <Belugas> sadly, french is not as widly used :(
15:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> even to montreal? :)
15:42:11 <Aztec> Sure I'd get around but there's so much you miss and (IMO) it's worth not only going to the big tourism places but get a view at the more rural areas and I'd guess englisch isn't that common there, at least in some countries like egypt or japan.
15:44:08 <Belugas> well... my wife speaks spanish (my kid starts to), i'm fluant in english, we all know french. That covers most of the american continents
15:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd advise against syria at the moment, though :)
15:44:16 <Belugas> and there's plenty to see there :)
15:48:06 <Aztec> I'll probably stay near my hometown and just visit some castles or spend some time at the sea. That's way more than far enough from syria. ;D
15:49:47 <Aztec> Oh and there usually is enought to see in your own country but sometimes i'd really like to see something different. ;) Ok in the US it's rather easy because you got a lot of different enviroments.
15:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't really have medieval castles in the US, though ;)
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16:40:18 <Aztec> There has to be a downside! ;P I'm living in europe so there are a lot of castles. :)
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17:45:23 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24437 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
17:45:23 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 14 changes by telk5093
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18:11:07 <NGC3982> underworld is making the music for the olympic show tonight
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18:34:03 <frosch123> why has mediawiki no option to revert multiple revisions in one step
18:35:51 <Wolf01> because it's trycky to revert the revert in case of necessity :D
18:36:14 <frosch123> revert does not delete it from the history
18:36:54 <frosch123> rollback only works for a single user, not 20 :(
18:38:28 <frosch123> ah, i can click on edit for an old revision, and then save it
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19:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i really don't get xkcd...
19:07:49 <frosch123> for the rest you likely need to know the story
19:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a little harder if you've only seen one of (apparently) two referenced movies
19:10:19 <frosch123> where are there movie references?
19:10:52 <frosch123> it's a quote from wiki, illustrated with a scene from lotr
19:16:17 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24438 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#5256-ish]: Make (non-refittable) vehicles with invalid default cargo unavailable.
19:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... today is "sysadmin appreciation day"
19:31:44 * Rubidium doesn't appreciate his work's sysadmin
19:36:09 <TrueBrain> and I never got any flowers from any of you
19:40:44 <NGC3982> with FIRS, if i have a single source of engineering supplies and a lot of primary industries that needs it
19:41:18 <NGC3982> - do i put it all in one primary industry, or do i make myself better off distributing the low amount of engineering supplies to all of the above?
19:42:16 <Alberth> at least that's what everybody does, I have never reached that point in my games :)
19:42:22 <NGC3982> oh, and note that all the primary industries i talk about create stuff that later creates engineering supplies
19:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: every industry needs 1 crate of engineering supplies every month
19:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a real challenge :)
19:43:37 <NGC3982> ive been doing this a bit wrong
19:43:52 <NGC3982> full load on a huge train to a single industry
19:44:10 <NGC3982> where i should have used smaller trains and more spread amongst the industries, i guess.
19:50:21 <TWerkhoven> distrubution centre
19:50:33 <TWerkhoven> where a train unloads, then uses trucks to distribute to single primaries
19:52:39 <NGC3982> yes, i guess that is the best way
19:52:51 <NGC3982> doesnt the distances kill of the use of trucks?
19:55:29 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24439 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5254]: In some cases ships could be covered with land.
20:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the trucks would only go short distances. the long distances are made by larger trains with transfer order
20:03:07 <Aztec> Are there other resources besides the ottd wiki and openttdcoop with tutorials/additional information about building?
20:04:31 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i think i catch your drift.
20:04:42 <NGC3982> that said; FIRS is hard. really hard.
20:05:00 <Alberth> Aztec: the forums, and many other TTD sites
20:05:04 <NGC3982> ..and i like it as much. :)
20:05:27 <Alberth> NGC3982: just don't deliver supplies :)
20:05:39 <Aztec> So I just have to keep clicking and reading. :D
20:06:04 <NGC3982> Alberth: say what? :p
20:07:17 <Alberth> Aztec: don't forget to experiment with the game :p
20:07:51 <NGC3982> dont miss the olympics thingy right now, guys.
20:09:02 <Aztec> Oh I still have long way to go so there are a lot of experimnets i've yet to do. ;D I'd never be able to build a self regulating network - hell my ML is still jamming. But it's interesting to see what other people have build and what's possible.
20:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Aztec: there's a savegame forum where people occasionally show what they built
20:16:21 <Aztec> So i probably should check it out, thanks. I didn't really have a look at the forum, yet.
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21:08:41 <Aztec> I've seen it several times now, is there any advantage of using One-Way PBS on the ML?
21:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Aztec: there is no difference in behaviour if there is no switch
21:10:02 <Belugas> See you in two weeks!!!!!
21:43:18 *** Sleepie has joined #openttd
21:51:17 <planetmaker> Aztec: join MP servers. Learn from others
21:52:14 <planetmaker> Aztec: I can recommend the #openttdcoop welcome server in particular, if you're interested in stuff like the srnw. Or join the real thing, the main server of coop
22:14:38 <Sleepie> I still get blocked when trying to do edits on the wiki
22:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you're a spammer.
22:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you can tell that by having a t-dialin.net address
22:16:12 <Sleepie> It seems its bad to be a customer of the of the biggest ISPs in germany :(
22:17:08 <frosch123> well, the spambots had no problem posting today, when they noticed that we forgot to setup a captcha for unregistered edits :s
22:17:49 <Sleepie> frosch123: Yep I had seen it some minutes ago, there were messing around like crazy
22:18:28 <frosch123> yeah, but for some reason the bots only noticed it yesterday
22:18:30 <frosch123> not the days before
22:18:37 <Eddi|zuHause> captchas only work when they're custom made
22:18:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no captcha at all for sure does not work
22:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> we need the kitten-test!
22:21:12 <Sleepie> at least the captchas seem to prevent them from posting links
22:21:48 <Sleepie> maybe anom edits should be forbidden too
22:22:05 <frosch123> as long as only single bots are able to enter, the rollback is enough
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22:22:22 <frosch123> it only gets annoying if 10 bots modify a page before notice
22:23:19 <Sleepie> frosch123: any idea what to do so can contribute again? Like now it seems I have no chance at all
22:23:39 <frosch123> we have no idea at all
22:25:43 <frosch123> we could make you a moderator, maybe that prevents you from being blocked :p
22:27:32 <Sleepie> or just lift the old blocks
22:28:00 <frosch123> i don't quite believe that the old blocks are really causing it
22:28:41 <Sleepie> well the thing is still strange..
22:29:13 <Sleepie> last time I tried about 3 days ago I could make a few edits
22:29:41 <Sleepie> then it happened again while I still had the same IP
22:31:04 <Sleepie> maybe some of the extensions is not compatible with the new mediaiki version
22:31:34 <frosch123> if you are still banned, maybe you can unban yourself :p
22:33:04 <Sleepie> ok I'm still banned, on which page I have to look for unban?
22:33:32 <frosch123> the special.blocklist one
22:36:07 <Sleepie> hmm... I cannot find the "button" to unban there
22:36:34 <Sleepie> and my name isn't on the list either
22:37:10 <Sleepie> but user 'kristy' now seems to get all those blocks I had before
22:38:29 <frosch123> the should be some "change block" button
22:39:11 <Sleepie> seems moderators cannot unblock then
22:41:27 <frosch123> TrueBrain: can user rights be changed via the wiki interface? or does that need ldap magic?
22:41:49 <TrueBrain> frosch123: both; depends on what you want?
22:42:06 <frosch123> i tried adding sleepie to wiki-sysop group
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22:42:28 <TrueBrain> both LDAP as mediawiki groups work
22:42:31 <TrueBrain> so either one will do
22:42:37 <TrueBrain> so yeah, that works
22:42:44 <Sleepie> is 'kristy' really blocked? Or is that another one like me - collateral damage
22:42:54 <frosch123> Sleepie: do you have to option to move pages?
22:43:13 <TrueBrain> as far as I can tell, users are still hitting eachother with the autoban
22:43:19 <TrueBrain> and I couldn't find how to disable autoban completely
22:43:44 <frosch123> did you have that option before?
22:44:05 <Sleepie> hmm I'm not sure but I guess not
22:44:28 <TrueBrain> frosch123: maybe we should just flush the whole ban list?
22:44:35 <frosch123> can you edit the frontpage or only view the source?
22:44:36 <TrueBrain> most bans are really old
22:44:59 <Sleepie> TrueBrain: I wouldn't remove all bans
22:45:10 <frosch123> TrueBrain: if you have an easy way to do that :)
22:45:35 <Sleepie> maybe all older than one year and then lets see how it goes
22:45:37 <TrueBrain> hit the button N times?
22:46:17 <frosch123> there is no single click unban
22:46:19 <TrueBrain> guess I can empty the table, but unsure if that does all we want it to do
22:46:49 <Sleepie> depends if there are any relations to other stuff
22:47:32 <TrueBrain> kristy is banned a lot of times, lolz
22:47:55 <Sleepie> same for me 15 minutes ago
22:48:17 <Sleepie> but even I'm now not on the list I couldn't edit anyway
22:48:37 <TrueBrain> its really autoblock keeping itself alive
22:48:46 <TrueBrain> will take 24+h nobody editing I guess for it to solve
22:48:49 <TrueBrain> which is not going to happen :P
22:49:15 <Sleepie> forbid editing on all pages :P
22:49:28 <Sleepie> and make a pointer on the main page
22:49:49 <Sleepie> but I guess the one-click button for it is not invented
22:50:55 <Sleepie> ok I'll do another try...
22:51:37 <TrueBrain> frosch123: can you revoke his sysop rights later? Mediawiki tells me he doesn't have them, but he appears to do? I dunno, odd interface :P
22:53:24 <frosch123> removed the group again, though it is not logged :p
22:53:38 <TrueBrain> and FYI: Wiki-NNN, are assigned by LDAP
22:53:41 <TrueBrain> they are copied to ...
22:53:58 <TrueBrain> in LocalSettings it copies the rights administrator has to Wiki-Sysop
22:54:03 <TrueBrain> which comes from LDAP
22:54:23 <frosch123> so, i would have had set him to administrator?
22:55:07 <frosch123> administrator has more rights
22:55:12 <TrueBrain> I _think_ the Wiki- entries are reloaded once in a while
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22:55:31 <TrueBrain> ah, yes, I didn't copy all rights I see
22:55:56 <frosch123> the add group "check users" should only be for bureaoucrats
22:55:58 <TrueBrain> only the checkuser differs, not?
22:56:01 <Sleepie> user right changes are not logged?
22:56:04 <frosch123> or however they are written
22:56:28 <frosch123> these groupnames are so confusing
22:56:43 <frosch123> one should think that "administrator" is the most powerful one
22:56:48 <frosch123> but bureaucrats are more
22:56:49 <TrueBrain> from my understand, Bureaucrats is implied by Administrator
22:57:17 <frosch123> i thought they did not have the "edit user rights"
22:57:17 <TrueBrain> but ... I hate the naming
22:57:20 <TrueBrain> it is fucking confusing
22:57:57 <TrueBrain> btw, I am very tempted to close editing for anonymous
22:58:00 <Sleepie> still a bit confusing though
22:58:00 <frosch123> i have no idea why there is a group that gives you more user right-management rights, but no edit rights
22:58:24 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we just enabled the captcha :p
22:58:34 <TrueBrain> but reading through the Recent Changes
22:58:37 <TrueBrain> it annoys me I see IPs
22:58:44 <TrueBrain> I cannot contact anyone asking why he made a change
22:58:49 <TrueBrain> I don't see the point
22:59:05 <frosch123> i never had to ask anyone
22:59:13 <frosch123> either stuff is correct or wrong
22:59:34 <TrueBrain> well, you work with it more than I, so I will leave it then :)
22:59:50 <frosch123> anyway, i don't mind it being disabled
22:59:58 <frosch123> would be consistent with the rest :)
23:02:17 <TrueBrain> I consulted the other devs too, we will see what comes out of it :P
23:02:21 <TrueBrain> for now, time to find my bed
23:02:45 <Sleepie> night and many thanks frosch123 and TrueBrain
23:04:57 <TrueBrain> and tnx frosch123 for cleaning up the wiki :)
23:27:34 <NGC3982> 4.113.000.000 viewers.
23:27:46 <NGC3982> i would be a bit and a half nervous.
23:47:29 <Sleepie> Well I wasn't one of them :P
23:47:59 <Sleepie> I'm more interested in the winter games
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