IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-28
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06:37:47 <Terkhen> thank you for your translation, I'll commit it soon :)
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08:34:25 <telanus> me current game I started yesterday
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09:17:39 <Terkhen> telanus: for the credits, do you prefer "telanus" or "te_lanus"?
09:19:57 <telanus> but I'll go with the te_lanus
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09:57:04 <Terkhen> telanus: done, thanks :)
10:11:25 <telanus> <NGC3982> telanus: how cute. <====== ?
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10:32:43 <TrueBrain> General Notice: you can no longer edit our wiki if you are not logged in.
10:33:44 <peter1138> That was possible...?
10:34:06 <TrueBrain> peter1138: since its beginning, yes
10:34:30 <TrueBrain> you were presented with a nice Captcha etc
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10:56:02 <NGC3982> it certainly gives room for philosophy, when an i7 processor needs 45 seconds to calculate 2*96 in the calc.exe software.
10:56:13 <NGC3982> how on earth did programming go so wrong.
10:58:41 <Wolf01> it's the same philosophy of "why on the old 486 669Mhz with 64MB of ram I could run win 2000 + internet explorer and on my 1GHz 128MB of ram I have troubles opening the google search page"
11:03:24 <NGC3982> and, on a daily notation
11:03:41 <NGC3982> do -not- try to boil moka coffee without the filter installed.
11:04:49 <Wolf01> and I don't want to talk about tablets, which are the worse power/performance ratio than every other electronic device
11:06:06 <Wolf01> NGC3982, and do not try to make a cappuccino with a moka using milk instead of water (it might explode)
11:06:56 <NGC3982> i forgot the filter (since i cleaned right before using the brewer)
11:07:10 <NGC3982> water mixed directly with coffee and stuff got seriously everywhere ;_;
11:09:45 <andythenorth> I think I'm about to get banned for trolling a lego forum
11:11:17 <frosch123> there might be children, you must not deny existance of santa
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11:12:42 <TinoDidriksen> That's obviously satire.
11:12:51 <andythenorth> not to Lego fans :P
11:13:08 <andythenorth> even English speaking ones
11:13:28 <andythenorth> I find Lego fans weird
11:13:35 <andythenorth> I should stop hanging out in those places
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11:15:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: write a similar text about ottd and post it on the forums
11:15:51 <frosch123> then you have another sample to answer such questions
11:16:16 <andythenorth> maybe we should write 'traumatic events in the life of a newgrf author'
11:16:22 <frosch123> complain about not provided with ponies, removal of pbs, miniin, 32bpp tar and general lack of support for chillpp
11:16:24 <andythenorth> but we haven't annoyed enough people yet
11:17:03 <frosch123> oh, and ofc ottd devs not implementing cbh and et
11:18:16 <frosch123> and instead removing support to execute arbirtrary commands without company using modified servers
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11:22:34 <frosch123> anything important forgotten?
11:27:48 <NGC3982> they only carry one crate of supplies, so it was easy administrating them with full load orders.
11:29:26 * andythenorth has no idea why people run all those stupid train-based supply delivery things
11:29:35 <andythenorth> with the massive train dropping off
11:29:55 * andythenorth has some ideas, but they're not friendly :P
11:30:28 <V453000> you can cheat that a little
11:30:45 <V453000> like if you make big train delivery into a transfer station which is only for that industry
11:30:49 <V453000> and the transfer station just makes sure minimal amount is used monthly
11:31:19 <NGC3982> yes, a timetabled truck, for instance
11:31:23 <V453000> requires almost nothing extra and uses the supplies very effectively
11:31:45 <NGC3982> if i understand engineering supplies correctly, the amount delivered doesnt matter as long as it's >1, and it's delivered every month?
11:31:58 <V453000> unfortunately there is also the option of a general refit which basically shows the biggest weaknesses of firs
11:32:11 <andythenorth> it might change, if I can be bothered to play test a game with patch to change supplies
11:32:16 <andythenorth> biggest weakness of FIRS?
11:32:21 <NGC3982> andythenorth: finaly, a constructive use of timetables, then! :)
11:32:28 <V453000> like, you have a train which picks up iron ore, drops it, refits to metal, picks up metal, drops metal, refits to ES, drops ES at its iron ore mine
11:32:45 <NGC3982> i use refit orders a lot
11:32:49 <andythenorth> V453000: "that's a feature" :)
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11:32:53 <V453000> once you learn how to do this, you are able to make very simple loops of this happening, and you can ignore many cargoes of FIRS
11:32:58 <NGC3982> it's not that effective, but it's a fun way to play.
11:33:06 <V453000> it is extremely effective
11:33:14 <andythenorth> is it kind of boring?
11:33:39 <V453000> the FIRS industries will start growing in such gigantic rates that even if you have like 4 of them you will still gain a gigantic amount of traffic extremely early in the game
11:34:00 <andythenorth> I think we're done, finished, over with all the established, conventional play styles
11:34:03 <NGC3982> V453000: you know what, ill try it.
11:34:09 <NGC3982> ill restart ttd.dndr.se
11:34:19 <andythenorth> whether you play co-op styles, or (like me) single-track railroading
11:34:19 <NGC3982> feel free to monitor my experiment.
11:34:38 <andythenorth> adding 'more industries, more cargos' hasn't really improved gameplay any
11:34:52 <andythenorth> it's just delaying boredom a bit longer
11:35:10 * NGC3982 usually creates FIRS based maps and ads a bit more primary industries.
11:35:16 <NGC3982> at least in our bigger multiplayer games
11:35:28 <NGC3982> it makes it a bit more fun (with a bit less wait).
11:35:48 <V453000> NGC3982: if you do the refit, you get constant supplies for all the primaries from 1st year of service
11:35:57 <V453000> the industries just skyrocket
11:36:27 <V453000> it is almost too much, you have to play nonstop to be able to cope with the increasing traffic
11:36:49 <V453000> definitely not with one train :d
11:37:56 * andythenorth thinks it's time for GS
11:38:08 <andythenorth> but first....other things :P
11:38:32 <V453000> NGC3982: you will probably need to include NUTS trains in order to have the right wagons
11:39:48 * NGC3982 just need some more star trek DS9 to make this day perfect.
11:40:29 <V453000> well whatever train set will provide you with the wagons which are able to use the refit
11:41:23 <NGC3982> uh, sorry, i mean: yes, i have.
11:42:20 <NGC3982> V453000: now i understand. of course i dont have the proper wagons.
11:44:40 <V453000> well that is what nuts universal wagons are for :(
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11:45:19 <andythenorth> you need some ships that refit too :P
11:45:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: good point
11:45:42 <frosch123> if ships could transport wagons
11:45:50 <frosch123> they could transport nuts uni wagons
11:45:54 <frosch123> and then transport everything
11:46:13 <andythenorth> it's strange that no-one has coded this yet
11:46:17 <NGC3982> i love the idea with train carrying ships
11:46:32 <frosch123> yeah, ships on trains are also cool :p
11:46:45 <NGC3982> and it's actually realistic
11:46:53 <NGC3982> just dont allow it on bridges or tunnels
11:47:02 <NGC3982> (or at least not on cheaper bridges)
11:47:13 <frosch123> if it's completely stupid, then it's very likely that there is such thing in rl
11:47:16 <NGC3982> andythenorth: you should totally make that in FISH. :P
11:47:39 <NGC3982> let me know if you want any help
11:47:42 <andythenorth> [refit, not trains carrying ships] :P
11:47:44 <NGC3982> not that i can write more then tutorial NML
11:48:11 * peter1138 wonders how TrueBrain's lego set is going
11:49:03 <TrueBrain> very slowly; got distracted :P
11:54:16 <NGC3982> it refuses to refit from lumber to wood
11:54:37 <NGC3982> it stops in the depot and give me the error message that refit failed
11:55:41 * NGC3982 needs to practice ockhams razor a bit more.
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11:56:35 * V453000 hates costs for refit
11:56:42 <V453000> just pointless and stupid
11:57:29 <NGC3982> V453000: sweet jesus.
11:57:55 <NGC3982> the round-up time for the first train is by luck 28 days
11:58:03 <V453000> well the way how you could do it could be a lot better
11:58:34 <V453000> with various conditional orders, and mainly the orders to have trains go to "nearest depot" instead of a specific depot
11:58:57 <NGC3982> oh, i missed out on something, though
11:59:06 <NGC3982> forests need farm supplies, not engineering supplies. ;_;
11:59:29 <V453000> oh, yes that is a problem :)
11:59:51 * NGC3982 restarts and tries to correct.
12:00:00 <V453000> im not sure but I think there is only oil and iron ore/coal/scrap chain for that
12:02:01 <NGC3982> yes, bauxite to aluminium plant with metal to machine shop with engineering supplies to bauxite mine.
12:03:35 <frosch123> V453000: what's your industry set doing?
12:03:52 <V453000> I dont have much time right now so it isnt really going at all atm, but not dead! :p
12:04:03 <V453000> in fact I might release a new nuts today
12:04:19 <V453000> I just dont have enough time to start a new thing right now so I just improve the train set
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12:53:47 <andythenorth> I might be sad if I set all these buy menu offsets
12:53:54 <andythenorth> and then the patch by Eddi|zuHause is included
12:59:10 <frosch123> yay, it's colder outside than inside
12:59:16 <frosch123> open all doors and windows!
13:02:09 <andythenorth> what is 'outside' please?
13:02:49 <frosch123> there where it's colder
13:05:26 <frosch123> it smells petrichor
13:06:30 <NGC3982> V453000: it does seem to work.
13:06:41 <NGC3982> although, it demands a fair load of starting economy.
13:08:37 <andythenorth> I should reshade that mine
13:09:13 <andythenorth> doesn't fit FIRS style
13:09:35 <NGC3982> just compare it with the machine shop
13:40:36 <NGC3982> V453000: im having a hard time getting the bauxite production up
13:40:46 <NGC3982> is full load a bad idea in this scenario?
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13:41:43 <andythenorth> 8 ships left to go
13:42:02 <andythenorth> NGC3982: full load is tricky when you have so many pickups
13:42:17 <andythenorth> balancing across them is hard
13:42:18 <NGC3982> well, of course i only used full load on the bauxite mine
13:42:54 <andythenorth> oh, you're not using autorefit :O
13:43:20 <andythenorth> you're refitting in depots
13:43:43 <andythenorth> if the newgrf supports it (perhaps not), refit at station
13:43:44 * NGC3982 thought that was autorefit.
13:44:21 <NGC3982> oh, i found the button, but it's greyed out.
13:44:26 <andythenorth> autorefit, strictly, is allowing the game to choose which cargo to refit to at a station
13:44:37 <andythenorth> but we tend to say it to mean 'refitting at stations'
13:44:55 <andythenorth> it's what I'm adding to FISH
13:44:58 <andythenorth> and then to other sets
13:45:03 <NGC3982> is there a disabling option?
13:45:55 <frosch123> nuts does not support autorefit
13:51:12 <NGC3982> i find the function to be to good use, but a bit unrealistic
13:56:10 <planetmaker> totally unrealistic to put into the same wagon first paper drums and then steel drums?
13:56:57 <frosch123> yup it is. otoh candyfloss, toffee and suggar fits for sure
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13:59:50 <frosch123> otoh, the news messages of madtv were apparently quite realistic
14:01:16 <NGC3982> planetmaker: yes, it is. a "refit" means that the original wagon does not support the new cargo.
14:02:54 <NGC3982> if autorefit was more logical then using a depot, depots have no meaning.
14:02:55 <masch_> there are wagons that support multiple cargos?
14:03:00 *** masch_ is now known as masch
14:03:23 <NGC3982> yes, exactly. they represent wagons that can carry different cargo (read: paper or steel drums).
14:03:59 <NGC3982> but (as in real life), most wagons need to be prepared for a new cargo.
14:04:08 <NGC3982> thus, a depot is a nice way to make that happend in the game.
14:04:25 <NGC3982> even though it can be made in a real life "station" platform.
14:04:31 <masch> paper? I dont know paper from the "vanilla" openttd version. Is that an addon?
14:04:42 <masch> or "plugin" or how you want to call it
14:05:41 <Chris_Booth> I never knew that java and C# where so similar until now
14:05:41 <NGC3982> paper is by the way a secondary industry product in FIRS (and ECS, i think).
14:06:58 <NGC3982> V453000: you have made a great job with NUTS. i really like it.
14:07:11 <NGC3982> V453000: especially with the naming. :p
14:07:28 <masch> Chris_Booth: C# is a (in my eyes) failed attempt to clone Java and add some more buzzwords
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14:07:56 <Chris_Booth> masch: do you not like C#?
14:08:25 <Chris_Booth> oh well not everyone like every language
14:08:28 <masch> but, to be honest, i didnt spend a lot time learning it or working with it
14:09:01 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: can you unpause the server at #openttdcoop.stable?
14:09:13 <masch> i learned it one day before i had to write a exam about c# in university .. and nerver used it again
14:09:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: what are you hacking on at the moment? Paying down FS bugs?
14:09:22 <andythenorth> I see a lot commits by you
14:16:55 <NGC3982> michi_cc: yes, there is. cleaning, for instance.
14:17:10 <andythenorth> cleaning schmeaning
14:17:29 <NGC3982> and yes, im not saying that my argument is true. im simply stating that using depots to exchange between different cargos is a realistic thing.
14:17:36 <michi_cc> You definitely don't need a maintenance depot for that bit of cleaning.
14:17:45 <andythenorth> NGC3982: feel free :)
14:17:49 <NGC3982> but in the game, it's a neat feature.
14:17:56 <andythenorth> but station refit = win imo
14:18:12 <NGC3982> andythenorth: yes, as i said. it's a good thing, but i dont feel like using it (personally).
14:19:28 <andythenorth> those ships might be confusingly named
14:19:43 <NGC3982> be sure to use proper prefixes
14:19:59 <NGC3982> and mega-power-ninja-turtle-awesome-<shipname>.
14:22:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: fs bugs and fs patches
14:23:26 <frosch123> and sadly the "much" is only relative, not absolute :s
14:23:33 <planetmaker> masch: play arctic climate. There is paper cargo
14:23:44 <planetmaker> in vanilla openttd. even ttd
14:23:47 <masch> planetmaker: oh right.. i remember. Thanks!
14:24:54 <andythenorth> I might reach r1k with FISH :P
14:50:27 <NGC3982> a friend of mine recently had a look at a game of mine, while i was playing
14:50:31 <NGC3982> he have never seen openttd before
14:51:28 <NGC3982> he wondered why the player could invest money in new buildings for towns, but didnt have a way of founding end-like industries with the same functions.
14:51:36 <NGC3982> and i kind of understand what he means
14:52:05 <frosch123> you can fund industries
14:52:18 <NGC3982> yes, but not as deep as he thought it.
14:52:31 <NGC3982> slaughterhouses, pizzerias, malls, etc.
14:52:45 <frosch123> it's not simcity :)
14:52:50 <NGC3982> yes, of course it is.
14:53:01 <NGC3982> but does it sound like a fun grf?
14:53:02 <frosch123> there are only industries which are delivered with reasonable amounts of stuff
14:53:55 <NGC3982> for instance, im thinking of an addon grf to ..well, let's say FIRS, where i can found a glass maker, slaughterhouse, soylent distribution centers (lol) and bars.
14:53:59 <andythenorth> this is why there is no 'pub' industry in FIRS :P
14:54:07 <NGC3982> since glass, livestock, pax and alcohol are already there.
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14:54:30 <NGC3982> well yes, it might be a bit far fetched
14:54:35 <NGC3982> it was just a thought.
14:54:39 <andythenorth> with autorefit it's more plausible
14:54:48 <andythenorth> just run some distribution trucks from transfer yards
14:55:30 <NGC3982> "the people in this town is recieving more alcohol then food, and are in a drunken graze unable to find their way to your transport systems *number of pax/station tile decreases*"
15:03:40 <andythenorth> right, we think it's bad if ships change appearance due to refitting at a station, yes?
15:06:29 <NGC3982> the deck should of course be changed after what cargo is being refitted
15:06:37 *** telanus1 is now known as telanus
15:06:48 <NGC3982> though, haul and control tower doesnt really change, i guess.
15:08:14 <andythenorth> which is better: lose some graphics, or add another ship :P
15:11:33 <andythenorth> it's appropriate for ships
15:12:00 <andythenorth> incidentally, BANDIT either has to have no autorefit for trucks
15:12:06 <andythenorth> or I have to rewrite the whole damn thing
15:12:16 <andythenorth> and the buy menu is going to be insanely large
15:12:27 <andythenorth> like, at least eGRVTS amounts, if not more
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15:24:04 <NGC3982> V453000: report: it does work, but it's not self sustaining. the loss of cargo between bauxite > metal > eng. supplies is way to big.
15:24:19 <NGC3982> 250 tonnes of bauxite is something like 3 crates of engineering supplies.
15:25:01 <NGC3982> it is enough to increase the production of the bauxite mine, but unfortunately; the distances are too big to make any train profitable
15:25:09 <NGC3982> i guess it's more of a maglev suitable strategy.
15:29:02 <andythenorth> what should I do when I have just one vehicle that is special case?
15:29:13 <andythenorth> - add lots of special case properties to my build framework
15:29:36 <andythenorth> - or just detect the special case once, magically and substitute some hard-coded nml
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15:38:13 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Extend your framwork with a "custom NML" option (E.g. like the CETS code allows to reference a custom graphics switch)?
15:41:06 <andythenorth> 69% is the most you'll get typically in FIRS
15:41:19 <michi_cc> The station rating has to be higher, but that is very hard.
15:41:34 <NGC3982> dont i need more to get production up?
15:41:35 <andythenorth> look up the game mechanics page for the tiresome stupid things you have to do
15:41:47 <andythenorth> you might need to keep buying new vehicles
15:41:52 <andythenorth> and possibly faster vehicles
15:42:02 <NGC3982> i think speed is my first issue.
15:42:04 <andythenorth> and build a statue and stuff
15:42:13 <FLHerne> Didn't you add a setting to FIRS for that?
15:42:26 <andythenorth> for station rating yes
15:42:29 <andythenorth> run a ship as a piglet :P
15:42:42 <andythenorth> NGC3982: try changing the station rating algorithm in FIRS
15:43:35 <NGC3982> is that possible with rcon or console?
15:44:08 <NGC3982> does 69-70% keep the production from growing, or can i trust the engineering supplies for that?
15:44:26 <andythenorth> FIRS ignores rating as much as it can
15:44:43 <andythenorth> @calc 0.69 * 112
15:45:01 <andythenorth> you're getting 77 tonnes per month of bauxite delivered to your station though
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15:52:53 <NGC3982> i changed one train and suddenly achieved 80% transported.
15:52:58 <NGC3982> and the train havent even left the station yet.
15:53:25 <NGC3982> i think this calls of a:
15:55:31 <Rubidium> new vehicles yield a higher rating for a few years
15:59:05 <NGC3982> i notice, i now have 96%
16:04:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What happened to FISH 1?
16:05:32 <FLHerne> Some of the features in the nightlies are great...
16:19:23 <FLHerne> Waterway construction costs, at least. Finally makes canals economic to build :-)
16:20:02 <FLHerne> The better ship variety/start dates are nice too (even if they do all look very similar)
16:20:56 <andythenorth> need to add waterway costs to the nml conversion :o
16:21:43 <andythenorth> FLHerne: if you're using recent nightlies on savegames, you might find broken / strange behaviour
16:22:12 <FLHerne> I haven't encountered any yet :-)
16:23:06 <FLHerne> I tend to use unstable overpatched OTTD anyway, so I doubt it'll afect my bug rate significantly anyway :P
16:36:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: So is 1.0 going to be the NML version? Or are you restarting the numbering? Or just ceasing development for some reason?
16:55:57 <andythenorth> so anybody want to help test for FISH 2.0?
16:56:07 <andythenorth> I am missing two boats that have special cases
16:56:14 <andythenorth> but the rest is sort of done
17:05:14 <andythenorth> ^ bundles server doesn't build the nml conversion yet, you'll need this grf :)
17:10:48 <__ln__> so when his royal highness prince Charles becomes the king, he won't be king Charles necessarily, will he?
17:11:52 <frosch123> what's "thanks" in finnish?
17:12:59 <frosch123> ah, then i guessed right... though i thought it would be "di" instead of "ki"
17:16:16 <__ln__> i would say some loanwords are the only ones beginning or ending with 'd' in finnish.
17:17:22 <__ln__> 'd' can be found in the middle of (genuinely) finnish words though.
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17:22:57 <NGC3982> finnish is fantastic.
17:23:24 <NGC3982> we recently opened a new sales office in helsinki, and im having a very fun time trying to communicate with the new personel there.
17:23:39 <NGC3982> since im trying to avoid english as much as possible, ive been taking finnish classes.
17:23:53 <NGC3982> it's fun how extremely different a language can be over such short distances.
17:30:03 <NGC3982> andythenorth: how can i calculate the maximum of produced products for the FIRS industries?
17:31:20 <__ln__> isn't it e.g. curious that we have a finnish word for elephant, which is not a loanword and therefore not at all based on 'elefant/oliphant/whateverphant'.
17:32:41 <NGC3982> but, that's nothing new to us scandinavians?
17:33:14 <NGC3982> as far as i know, swedish uses lots of words never loaned, but simply made up when first encountering the object.
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17:35:48 <NGC3982> __ln__: what is the word, by the way?
17:36:35 <NGC3982> what about elefantti?
17:38:22 <NGC3982> and norsu is an older version then elefantti?
17:41:54 <__ln__> possibly. norsu is the preferred word, as far as i know.
17:42:01 <andythenorth> NGC3982: for secondary industry or primary?
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17:42:59 <NGC3982> andythenorth: primary.
17:43:28 <andythenorth> there's no easy way to calculate it except by reading the code
17:43:32 <andythenorth> or use the production level cheat
17:43:46 <NGC3982> bauxite production halted at 198 tonnes
17:43:49 <andythenorth> save your game, enable the cheat, max the production
17:43:52 <NGC3982> and that sounds a bit under the line.
17:44:16 * andythenorth can't test, no bauxite mines on my map :P
17:44:27 <andythenorth> once again, FIRS fails to supply anything like complete industry chains
17:44:35 <andythenorth> it's such a crappy grf on smaller maps
17:45:11 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24440 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt:
17:45:11 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:11 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by OliTTD
17:45:36 <NGC3982> andythenorth: i thought you were a part of creating it?
17:45:39 <andythenorth> bauxite mine maxes at 1216 tonnes / 1368 tonnes, depending on the length of month
17:45:50 <NGC3982> ah, i see. i have a bit to go then. :)
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18:03:29 * andythenorth is puzzled what to do with this boat that refits to ferry and fishing boat graphics, depending on cargo
18:05:41 <telanus> andythenorth: could I do a translation of FISH?
18:06:16 <andythenorth> I haven't got the lang translations setup yet
18:06:24 <andythenorth> but with nml it's kind of built in
18:14:40 <andythenorth> telanus: the downside is that I'm still adding a lot to english.pylng
18:14:48 <andythenorth> so you'd have to keep up :P
18:16:33 <andythenorth> telanus: if you supply a translated lang file, you need to lose lines 41-44
18:17:58 <andythenorth> also you won't be able to translate the vehicle names currently
18:19:29 <telanus> no problem, it's an ongoing project :D
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18:56:21 * andythenorth wonders what the lang ID is for Afrikaans
18:56:31 <andythenorth> I'll look in FIRS :P
18:59:41 <andythenorth> nah that's english
19:07:52 <andythenorth> just getting you the grf
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19:39:37 *** telanus1 is now known as telanus
19:54:46 <NGC3982> V453000: it works. thanks for the tip.
19:55:36 <Supercheese> btw, is the lack of a FISH 1.0 due to a rebranding?
19:56:44 <Supercheese> oh snap he left; nevermind
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19:57:31 <Supercheese> Ah, I can re-ask: is the lack of a FISH 1.0 due to a rebranding?
19:58:22 <andythenorth> I might do FISH 1.0
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continue to next day ⏵
