IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-25
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06:40:52 <andythenorth> should tankers load faster than cargo ships or not?
06:41:01 <andythenorth> cargo ships load at speed 18 currently I think
06:41:09 <andythenorth> otherwise it takes a boringly long time
06:46:29 <andythenorth> tankers are ~10% higher capacity than the equivalently sized cargo vessel
06:57:36 <Nat_aS> honestly I just want ships to move faster
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06:59:50 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO yes
07:39:35 <andythenorth> should geared freighters load faster (they have their own cranes)
07:39:41 * andythenorth thinks this is overthinking it :P
07:40:47 <planetmaker> cranes are just eye candy. In RL as in OpenTTD. Maybe :-P
07:41:23 <Alberth> cranes are used when the harbour has no cranes :p
07:41:27 * andythenorth avoids pointless detail :P
07:41:57 <andythenorth> so tankers are 10% higher cap than freighters, and load 25% faster
07:42:19 <planetmaker> so it be. Can always be changed if too many people find that too strange
07:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (un)loading liquids very fast has issues with static electricity
07:42:25 <planetmaker> probably isn't strange, though
07:42:40 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: just needs a good ground
07:44:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you proposing an implementation of new disasters?
07:45:06 <andythenorth> disaster: powder / vapour explosion
07:45:17 <andythenorth> chance varies by loading speed
07:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "2 workers die from electric shock" -> 0% rating
07:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> (basically the same effect as vehicle crashes)
07:48:01 <andythenorth> worker safety does drive vehicle upgrades ir
07:49:23 <andythenorth> add 'fines for worker safety infractions' to infrastructure costs
07:50:26 <NGC3982> andythenorth: vandaag? :)
07:51:52 <Alberth> NGC3982: "morgen" in Dutch means 'tomorrow', 'vandaag' means 'today'
07:52:18 <planetmaker> in German it's nicely ambibuous. It means morning and tomorrow
07:52:45 <NGC3982> Alberth: oh, really? i was actually under the impression that "morgen" was a used short for "good morning".
07:53:17 <Alberth> NGC3982: it is, 'goedemorgen' actually
07:54:14 <NGC3982> we scandinavians (at least we swedes, danes and norweigans) use 'morrn' a lot.
07:54:46 <NGC3982> goder morgon > god morgon > morgon > morrn
07:55:13 <Alberth> yeah 'm' is sufficient :)
07:58:14 <andythenorth> we could add a whole new layer of worker safety and environmental costs
07:58:26 <andythenorth> post-2000 or so (but probably newgrf-able)
07:58:32 <andythenorth> it would either be really interesting
07:58:38 <andythenorth> or reeeeeeally tedious
07:58:41 <NGC3982> for what? industries?
07:58:51 <Supercheese> By that time, your corporation is so wealthy it doesn't have to care about environmental problems
07:58:59 <Supercheese> just pay more money, big deal
07:59:02 <andythenorth> make it punitive :P
07:59:10 <Supercheese> Local authority gets mad? Bribe bribe bribe
07:59:17 <Supercheese> also, plant trees, bulldoze, repeat
08:00:17 <NGC3982> well, adding enviromental costs doesnt seem to be the problem.
08:00:48 <NGC3982> you should be able to create enough difficulty that the scenario above here, isnt possible by 2000-ish (in default games)
08:01:20 <NGC3982> andythenorth: i would like that.
08:02:05 <andythenorth> I was thinking about the 'too much money' problem
08:02:17 <andythenorth> it's mostly a function of increased map size no?
08:02:27 <andythenorth> original game was what, 64 x 64?
08:02:39 <Supercheese> too much computer
08:02:47 <andythenorth> number of tiles on maps scales by square law
08:03:01 <andythenorth> so revenue per tile might be same for any map
08:03:11 <andythenorth> but number of tiles increases geometrically
08:03:16 <NGC3982> is revenue per tile different on different sized maps?
08:03:32 <andythenorth> should be about the same
08:03:39 <andythenorth> but more tiles....
08:03:44 <andythenorth> many many many more tiles
08:03:54 <andythenorth> lots more revenue
08:04:01 <andythenorth> "too much" money
08:04:30 <andythenorth> also games are probably longer than in TTD (1950 start)
08:04:47 <andythenorth> and due to "the signals now actually work" we don't spend most of our time buying new trains
08:05:05 <NGC3982> im not really following. you mean that players get differently paid in games with larger maps? or are you talking about simply making more money (since you can cover more industries and profitable distances)?
08:05:15 <andythenorth> simply more money
08:05:28 <andythenorth> say revenue per tile per year is $100
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08:05:33 <Supercheese> Hehe, "maths", plural
08:05:40 <andythenorth> @calc 64 * 64 * 100
08:05:40 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 409600
08:05:48 <peter1138> Yes, maths, short for mathematics.
08:05:51 <andythenorth> @calc 1024 * 1024 * 100
08:05:51 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 104857600
08:05:58 * Supercheese is an American, so "maths" sounds funny to him
08:06:00 <peter1138> It is 35°C in this office.
08:06:04 <andythenorth> @calc 104857600 / 409600
08:06:13 <NGC3982> andythenorth: yes, of course. but that also implies you having something "on the more tiles"?
08:06:24 <peter1138> Of course it does, Americans never get that right.
08:06:29 <andythenorth> yup, it's not a flawless argument
08:06:32 <NGC3982> that's a bit of a basic of company profit.
08:06:42 <NGC3982> but yes, the default game makes this very, very easy
08:06:50 <andythenorth> it was very hard to make money on planes in TTD, due to small map size
08:06:53 <NGC3982> especially when you start using PBS
08:06:59 <andythenorth> also ships were insanely hard
08:07:22 <NGC3982> something i have reacted on is the running cost of planes
08:07:27 <NGC3982> wich seems to be very, very low.
08:07:43 <Supercheese> default planes? definitely. Av8, less so
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08:08:39 <NGC3982> Av8 is 'more' realistic (read: more expencive)
08:09:43 <NGC3982> a solution would be to have plane running cost increase with range, maybe?
08:09:48 <NGC3982> at least it sounds a bit realistic.
08:10:05 <NGC3982> one and a half increase in running cost every 200 tiles or something.
08:10:31 <andythenorth> it's nice having a newgrf build framework
08:10:39 <andythenorth> I distrust frameworks in general
08:11:08 <andythenorth> but being able to set some values in a website, and get a grf from it with one shell command is nice
08:12:40 <planetmaker> yes. Problem is the required image files
08:13:14 <planetmaker> what I do see what could happen, andythenorth, is a web-interface for the devzone which allows uploading NML and png files to your project
08:13:26 <planetmaker> and that then getting build on the usual daily run with a default build rule
08:13:54 <planetmaker> like a restriction of "only one nml file" or so
08:14:04 <planetmaker> with automatic commits to the repo when you upload stuff
08:14:22 <planetmaker> that *is* actually feasible with text files. Image files cannot be updated sadly
08:14:42 <planetmaker> and no, it's not yet implemented on the devzone. It's somewhat in testing :-)
08:15:10 <planetmaker> it would be so cool, if you also could update image files... :S
08:26:07 <NGC3982> hm, i dont understand :(
08:26:27 <NGC3982> i fail to create a new game with a different size, only using rcon.
08:27:44 <NGC3982> it's a config thing, not a parameter set with the newgame command?
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10:49:12 <Alberth> oh, firs wasn't updated recently
10:50:40 <andythenorth> FIRS is stuck again :P
10:56:11 * Alberth blames planetmaker for breaking the swedish language "STR_IND_lera_PIT" :)
10:56:22 <Alberth> afrikaans has similar problems :p
10:57:24 <andythenorth> find and replace :)
11:00:27 <Alberth> andythenorth: shall I add it?
11:05:01 <Alberth> what target for making a .tar file?
11:06:00 * NGC3982 can contribute to the swedish translation of FIRS
11:06:07 <NGC3982> wich is francly a disaster.
11:07:15 <planetmaker> Alberth: make bundle_tar ?
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11:52:04 <planetmaker> NGC3982: many people can contribute. In the end only those who *do* contribute make the difference, though :-)
11:55:07 <NGC3982> my disaster-statement wasnt serious, since i really appreciate the fact that someone made FIRS in the first place.
11:55:56 <planetmaker> it was more of a hint "don't talk about the possibility to improve the situation" and instead actually supply a proper translation
11:56:13 <NGC3982> that's why im on the forums, browsing at the moment.
11:56:21 <NGC3982> (and the links you put forward yesterday)
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12:11:53 * andythenorth puts a joke into FISH
12:11:56 <andythenorth> you won't find it :P
12:13:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: where's Nemo? ;-)
12:13:05 <NGC3982> if i understand game mechanics correctly, when starting a local game (or a dedicated server), i write a new openttd.cfg with the settings and grf's ive choosen for that particular game, right?
12:13:51 <planetmaker> NGC3982: no and yes. You need to modify the newgame settings. Just changing the cfg won't help you while openttd is running
12:13:54 <NGC3982> so, if i was to (with rcon access only) start a new game (with newgame command) without the pre-chosen grfs - i need to alter the cfg first?
12:13:59 <planetmaker> openttd will overwrite then all changes upon exit
12:14:21 <planetmaker> you can reload the config, though
12:14:27 <NGC3982> then, how can i alter the grf settings for a new game, with only rcon?
12:16:22 <NGC3982> i cant see how i can alter the cfg with rcon (and then reload it)
12:17:19 <planetmaker> changing the newgrf config is impossible just via rcon, iirc
12:17:25 <NGC3982> so starting a new game with alterned grf settings (or none at all) is not possible with only rcon access.
12:17:44 <NGC3982> bah, i need to stop using windows for server related stuff.
12:17:53 <NGC3982> SSH would be a neat thing just now. ;)
12:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's other means to upload files, even to windows servers
12:25:36 <NGC3982> yes, but it's quirky, and i dont like it.
12:25:52 * Alberth gives NGC3982 a Linux CD
12:26:37 <NGC3982> my problem is also that the "server" is a HTPC
12:45:06 <telanus> Alberth: thank you for the build
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13:53:32 <V453000> hi, is it possible to get info what settings were changed during the game from a savegame? Like which cheats were used, but with settings?
14:09:44 <V453000> how do I extract that from the savegame?
14:09:47 <V453000> or is it in the savegame?
14:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a console command
14:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively you get it when you crash the game :p
14:10:49 <V453000> wow amazing, thanks Eddi|zuHause !
14:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody else here knew it when i asked yesterday...
14:13:20 <V453000> my sister even knew the complete script of it when she was like 8, that is how many times she saw it :D
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14:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that i can understand :)
14:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> these westerners don't understand what good movies are :)
14:17:28 <V453000> well there is for example one movie called "Mrazík" which is extremely popular in czech, but it is a russian film and russians barely know it :D
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14:17:36 <V453000> idk what is it called in english
14:17:42 <V453000> something like Ice man or something similar
14:17:55 <V453000> a guy who is able to freeze anything
14:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... these pictures don't look familiar
14:19:36 <V453000> does the gamelog register all changes?
14:19:47 <V453000> I changed for example station spread and it doesnt look like it is there
14:20:51 <V453000> that is really strange
14:21:13 <V453000> same for raw industry construction setting and gradual loading that I just tried
14:22:24 <V453000> czech people watch it even nowadays
14:22:41 <V453000> and it is always on tv on 31st december every year
14:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember seing it
14:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> oh yes, we have one of those "always on 31st december" things as well
14:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an english sketch called "dinner for one" (aka "the 90th birthday")
14:24:14 <V453000> hm :) ... anyway, could the missing info from gamelog be a bug? or could I possibly be doing something wrong?
14:24:28 <V453000> I dont feel like I could fuck up much in the process of writing a few letters into console :d
14:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> where a guy serves food and drinks for an old lady and her long deceased (imaginary) friends
14:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and he becomes increasingly drunk, as he has to drink everything the 4 guys would drink
14:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's said to be the most repeated show in television history
14:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> as it is on multiple channels every year
14:26:14 <Mazur> Yes, it's well known that's on every new years in Germany.
14:26:31 <Mazur> NOt in tnhe UK, though, I've onlyu seenit once.
14:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> must be the only show that is not dubbed on german TV :p
14:27:41 <V453000> they play it also in english in germany?
14:28:36 <Mazur> Not seen Drei Haselnüßchen für whatever, yet, not been shown on Dutch, Belgfian or UK TV, yet, when I was alert.
14:28:54 <Mazur> BUt I've heard of it, once.
14:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically a variation of the cinderella story
14:30:06 <Mazur> Yes, I could guess that.
14:30:51 <V453000> from what I have checked, I think the gamelog only shows settings which can not be changed in multiplayer game, for whatever reasons :o
14:31:21 <V453000> settings like weight multiplier, towns allowed to build roads, and newgrf changes, do get shown, while all other I tried dont :o
14:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably correlation, not causality :)
14:31:32 <V453000> should I make a bugreport about that? or :o
14:31:54 <Alberth> the log is not about logging but about desync debugging
14:32:37 <V453000> so I guess there is no other way to check if other settings changed during th game eh
14:33:04 <Alberth> play back the video you were making? :D
14:33:44 <V453000> I have a savegame and I would like to see what settings were changed during the game
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14:35:04 <Alberth> the only thing I can see further is by comparing the config between now and when you started, since that's what is kept separate
14:35:58 <Alberth> that is, 'new game' copies the config for the game from the intro screen setting (but not all)
14:36:18 <V453000> alright thanks :) ... I was rather searching for the changes in settings, like if anyone allows for themselves to build primaries by funding, and then setting it back so the config files would be the same
14:37:11 <Alberth> don't think we have that detailed logging
14:39:08 <V453000> another Q ... is there a list of settings changeable only in singleplayer?
14:46:20 <Alberth> not as a simple list afaik
14:46:30 <Alberth> there is not even a list of all settings, I think
14:46:39 <Alberth> other than the source code :p
14:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: grep through src/table/settings.ini :)
14:47:28 <V453000> I am checking it manually :D halfway through
14:51:44 * telanus has updated his afrikaans FIRS translation :P
14:54:06 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 185680.25
15:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> -STR_IND_GRAIN_MILL :Graan Meule
15:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> +STR_IND_graan_MILL :Graan Meule
15:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't look right
15:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> neithr does this:
15:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> -##grflangid 0x1B
15:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> +##grflangid 0x01
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15:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: now imagine the law that they could shoot down "hijacked" planes was actually passed
15:45:38 <andythenorth> ^^ find and replace a bad way to do this
15:45:48 <andythenorth> anybody working on a web translator? :P
15:46:13 <andythenorth> I could add web translation to FISH and BANDIT probly
15:46:25 <andythenorth> actually not, due to server / account / security crap
15:46:29 <andythenorth> but the code would be easy
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15:55:44 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I deleted them
16:30:36 <Chrill> Quick simple opinion: Best bridge set for working alongside TTRS or UK set roads? Best bridge set for regular train tracks? :D
16:34:01 <Chrill> There is only TBRS, then?
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17:24:50 <Silo> Hey, just started playing for the first time, and downloaded the europe scenario. Since im a plane lover i was thinking about just going for planes, but want the world to expand, so wondering if i can add other AI players? Can't see anyone atleast
17:27:51 <Alberth> you can download AI players
17:28:07 <Alberth> and then enable them by setting the number of competitors
17:29:16 <Silo> In the game? because when i press the game at the scenario i cant change any options
17:29:38 <Alberth> before you start the game
17:30:20 <planetmaker> Silo: configure the AIs which you plan to use from the main menu. Then start the scenario
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17:41:14 <Silo> Ty, but anyway i can see if it worked?
17:41:27 <Silo> Like, to see if they are in the game?
17:42:35 <Alberth> they often start a year or so later
17:45:00 <Alberth> Silo: open the AI/Gamescript settings from the 3rd button dropdown, it should say a non-zero max no of competitors
17:45:21 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24435 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
17:45:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: spanish - 9 changes by Terkhen
17:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Silo: you will get a news message when a company starts building
17:45:56 <Silo> I bet i can change that on AI/Gamescript config when it says the ai will start somedays after the last one?
17:47:02 <planetmaker> yes. ingame you can force an AI to start now, if you type "start_ai" in the console
17:47:12 <planetmaker> console as in the what you open with the key left of 1
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17:49:52 <Silo> Ty guys, seems like the Ai is in the game :)
17:55:39 <Alberth> evenink Wolf01, and good night
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18:17:20 <Silo> Anyway i can freeze the "year" dont want to go to the futurstic planes and stuff
18:22:16 <Silo> So daylenght patch + setting back time before the planes and stuff comes?
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18:25:42 <Wolf01> daylength... patch... aww
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18:35:08 <planetmaker> one of the sad topics. As cargo destinations
18:58:53 <Silo> Can i patch OpenTTD with TTDpatch?
19:00:31 <Wolf01> oh no, poor boy, you shouldn't ever think about that
19:00:37 <planetmaker> you can also patch windows with linux
19:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also patch a porsche with a ferrari
19:18:15 <Terkhen> Silo: they are completely different things, you can't move features from one game to the other
19:18:49 <Terkhen> except NewGRFs of course, and even then not always
19:26:23 <Silo> I kind a figured that Terkhen after all the comments :)
19:26:34 <Silo> But ty for a good answer tho, creds
19:37:58 <Silo> Anyway to remove the "saving" mousepointer? my pc sucks so saving take a long time(my main pc crashed so rocking my oldest pc)
19:38:39 <frosch123> you can disable autosave
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19:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so you think by removing the cursor the saving will go faster?
19:38:51 <frosch123> at the risk of not being able to recover easily
19:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm feeling very unhelpful today
19:40:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that might be due to the (local) weather
19:40:47 <Silo> No, but the icon is quite large, and the pointing place isnt
19:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, you can change mouse cursors with a newgrf
19:43:40 <Silo> Ty, anyway to change names on vehicles?
19:44:29 * andythenorth is feeling unhelpful
19:44:45 <andythenorth> it is hot, I am sick, I have two sick kids, and I have spent all day at home trying to work with kids around
19:44:52 <andythenorth> which leads to bad work, and worse parenting
19:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Silo: same place
19:45:06 <andythenorth> therefore if there are people to be unhelped, I am your man
19:45:25 <andythenorth> actually I should be helpful, in the quest for karma
19:45:35 <andythenorth> when life gives you lemons etc...
19:46:29 <Silo> Eddi|zuHause ? I meen more like instead of vehicle 1, to xxx
19:46:34 <Rubidium> must say the beach can be found at awkward places
19:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Silo: oh yes, there is a "name" button in the vehicle details
19:47:07 <andythenorth> Rubidium: where did you find it today?
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19:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Silo: click on the vehicle, then on the sheet icon on the lower right
19:47:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the top level of a parking garage, though did find it yesterday
19:48:53 <andythenorth> germany has a mix of weissbier and lemon soda
19:49:24 * andythenorth must stop reading that page
19:49:29 <andythenorth> I have beer but not soda :P
19:50:59 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: If it's hot and you're ill, you should have something healthy and made from fruit.
19:51:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can also order that in any pub of your choice usually
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19:51:35 <Prof_Frink> I strongly recommend the homepress at the Square and Compass. Will cure everything.
19:51:38 <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: cider?
19:52:33 <Prof_Frink> (Please note: Do not attempt to operate heavy machinery or your legs after a pint of Eve's Idea.)
19:59:04 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 187482
20:21:15 <Chris_Booth> is there any reason why I couldn't interface with the openttd console using C#?
20:23:10 <Chris_Booth> was asking you guys planetmaker
20:24:08 <Chris_Booth> if not I would thinking or re-purposing my MySQL instance creator for some fun to run an openttd server
20:24:09 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: with console you mean the black/white thing with lots of text that shows up when starting openttd with -dN?
20:24:36 <Chris_Booth> in the same way autopilot interfaces with openttd
20:25:20 <Chris_Booth> a sort of openttd server running webservice in C#
20:25:28 <Rubidium> windows binaries are either a dos application or not, so either it always shows the command line or not. Since we don't really want that for OpenTTD, the console you then see is not the one you need. glx once made a small tool to toggle the bit that needs to be toggled
20:26:23 <Rubidium> though if you run a server, why not use the admin port which has been specifically designed for server management?
20:26:45 <Chris_Booth> Rubidium: was just a fun project
20:27:05 <glx> and it's GUI or not, nothing related to DOS
20:28:43 <Chris_Booth> but I was thinking or some sort of website I could use to admin a server
20:29:25 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: exactly then a bot which interfaces the website and the admin port of openttd is so much more suitable
20:30:20 <Chris_Booth> is there info on the admin port?
20:30:25 <planetmaker> and it would not only be fun but useful ;-)
20:30:50 <planetmaker> wiki doesn't quite know, I fear
20:31:37 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: I would think it would be more useful in something open source like js, but I don't know js
20:31:39 <planetmaker> But there's an docs/admin_port.txt
20:32:05 <planetmaker> admin_network indeed
20:32:47 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: it would be useful if it existed at all. In whatever language
20:32:58 <glx> Last updated: 2011-01-20 <-- that's really an old feature :)
20:33:23 <Chris_Booth> looks like I have a new project to start this weekend
20:33:35 <planetmaker> All existing implementations are either a proof-of-concept or unreleased and unavailable
20:34:19 <Chris_Booth> I can easily release my .dll's for anyone to use if I get them to work
20:34:28 <Chris_Booth> and then anyone can use them
20:34:28 <planetmaker> there do exist one project in java which has bothn example bot and a library to interface the port. And another in python which is only a library
20:34:48 <planetmaker> there *does* exist one iirc in C#. But unreleased
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20:36:13 <planetmaker> and link to the lib. Maybe it gives hints
20:37:27 <planetmaker> if you want a quick success and result and don't fear java instead of C# or so, the grapes bot is probably your best bet
20:38:09 <planetmaker> if you make it work, and e.g. a new game config via web, I'll happily "buy" it
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20:38:57 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: I will not sell it
20:39:05 <Chris_Booth> I will put it on devzone
20:39:13 <planetmaker> that's why I wrote "" ;-)
20:39:25 <planetmaker> buy as in put to use
20:40:06 <Sleepie> nice discussion, because I also started on bot in C#, but did not make much progress because of too much RL stuff
20:40:34 <Sleepie> well only one week to vacation
20:40:49 <Sleepie> maybe then I find some time to continue
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20:41:21 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: I would guess very few people have access to tfs for subversioning
20:41:49 <Chris_Booth> its the SVN control inside visual studio
20:41:53 <Sleepie> oh no who will use this if you don't have too
20:41:56 <Chris_Booth> but I think it only works in vs
20:42:36 <Sleepie> you can use whichever version control you want
20:42:49 <Chris_Booth> Sleepie: read what I said
20:43:08 <Chris_Booth> tfs only works in vs, not it is the only svn that you can use
20:43:21 <Sleepie> I think there is a client
20:43:34 <Sleepie> I'm not sure if its totally free
20:43:59 <Chris_Booth> team foundation server isn't free
20:44:17 <Chris_Booth> I will look at other svn plugins for vs
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20:44:26 <Sleepie> the server not well the next will come with express
20:45:43 <Sleepie> but seriously I had to use tfs in one of my last project and I was not impressed
20:47:09 <Chris_Booth> that amazes me it is rather easy since it stores everything you need to build
20:48:03 <Sleepie> On the plus side: Everything is integrated with eachother so depending on your development process (SCRUM for instance) you can maintain all stories and task and link them with your changesets and tests
20:48:42 <Sleepie> Trust me you didn't want to maintain a TFS server
20:49:00 <Chris_Booth> Operations do that for us
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20:49:16 <Chris_Booth> and when it crashes we bombard them with emails then go to the pub
20:50:36 <Sleepie> Even since TFS 2010 the buildprocess is based WF4 so any customization of the build process is a bit more complicated than just to tweak a makefile or script
20:52:11 <Sleepie> WF4 is very powerful, but I had never expected they would base the buildprocess on this technology
20:53:32 <Sleepie> So for my own stuff I still prefer to msbuild or nant, because msbuild has some flaws too
20:54:56 <Sleepie> and if you need continous integration, setup a CCNet or Jenkins server and you're done
21:00:44 <Sleepie> planetmaker: Am I right in assuming the DevZone wouldn't be able to build .Net applications at the moment?
21:03:28 <planetmaker> Well. Depends whether opensuse has all packages needed to build it. Then it would be feasible
21:04:34 <Sleepie> hmm.. I might also have a look at Mono. At least for things like bots for the admin port it should have all things necessary
21:07:41 <Sleepie> At first I have todo my work so there is something to compile ;)
21:10:11 <Sleepie> But anyway, when I have something that is alpha-like I already planned to sign up at DevZone and host it there, so other can use it and contribute
21:20:03 <planetmaker> Sleepie: for instance the DevZone does build the windows binary of nml
21:21:48 <Sleepie> but that is based on iirc, for .Net you'll the its framework and SDK which you won't have on a linux box
21:22:17 <Sleepie> I dunno if it would be possible with Wine though
21:23:03 <Sleepie> so Mono might be an option, because that would work on both
21:23:53 <Sleepie> and for Windoze .Net binaries could also be provided just as downloads
21:24:40 <Sleepie> also building yourself would be fairly easy on windows
21:25:01 <Sleepie> you wouldn't even VS for it, just the SDK
21:26:22 <Sleepie> ah forgot python in "but that is base..." :)
21:28:08 <Sleepie> I wonder if I could build nml with IronPython
21:28:41 <Sleepie> I hope I find some time on the weekend to test this
21:28:56 <Silo> Any things i have to fix to take oil from oilwells to "factory"? I choose a tank ofc, but they never load anything:s
21:29:42 <Sleepie> Silo: default industries? which vehicle set?
21:29:52 <Terkhen> Silo: make sure that the tank you chose can carry oil, and that it is refitted to oil
21:31:09 <Silo> Will check when i start the game again, lagged a little. But my competitors set up shop just next to me, and the name of the stop is always oil something, but mine is just the name of the place/xx
21:32:13 <Sleepie> Multiplayer? Maybe they just renamed the station to better find it
21:34:23 <Sleepie> Ah so AIs, well then the AI is naming those stations I guess
21:36:04 <Sleepie> Btw. you can also rename your stations if you feel the need for it...
21:37:22 <Silo> Suddenly it worked now;s
21:37:22 <Sleepie> I do that in my games, because it let me find stations easier in the station list
21:37:27 <Silo> When i restarted my game
21:37:39 <Silo> The trucks actually loaded the oil
21:44:35 <Silo> Do you get new airports just by waiting for the years to go by ?
21:47:57 <Sleepie> yep, but I'm not totally sure if you also need faster airplanes
21:51:18 <Sleepie> on the latter you can find the introduction date of each airport type
22:05:48 <Nat_aS> too bad you can't merge airports
22:05:56 <Nat_aS> a pair of comuter airports would be cool
22:10:03 <Silo> Cant use my browser while playing
22:17:05 <Sleepie> Silo: just look later than
22:19:05 <Sleepie> Nat_aS: I remember there was some grf airports project/branch, but I don't remember if it was abandoned or whatever
22:19:52 <Nat_aS> custom SImutrans style airports would be so awesome
22:19:59 <Nat_aS> they might unbalance aircraft a bit though
22:20:11 <Sleepie> But there is OpenGFX+ airports, which gives you already some nice features like rotating airports in 90° steps
22:20:17 <Nat_aS> part of the tradeoff is how inneficant each airport is.
22:20:25 <Nat_aS> yes, OGFX airports is nice
22:21:35 <Sleepie> Hmm I don't Simutrans airport systems are their some screenshots on the forums?
22:22:25 <Nat_aS> in simutrans, you build airports like you would any other kind of network
22:22:38 <Nat_aS> placing runways, taxyways, tarmacs, and terminals.
22:23:21 <Nat_aS> i'm actualy not sure how signal logic works for airports
22:23:22 <Sleepie> Ah I see, which was basically also the goal of the grf airports project for OpenTTD
22:23:41 <Nat_aS> I do understand that the airports of OTTD had a rather complicated signal system that the player can't see
22:24:12 <glx> the state machine is the hardest thing
22:24:40 <glx> it's very easy to deadlock a badly designed state machine
22:29:47 <Sleepie> is there any further development in that direction?
22:30:22 <Sleepie> so improving the current state machine or starting from scratch?
22:33:10 <glx> each airport has its own state machine
22:33:37 <Nat_aS> actualy now that I think about it
22:33:52 <Nat_aS> airplanes on the ground used the same logic as trucks in simutrans IIRC
22:34:05 <Nat_aS> been a while, I don't remember if i ever saw them pass each other
22:34:25 <Nat_aS> it was kind of hard to build a big air route in that game
22:34:42 <Nat_aS> because passenger networks don't get a lot of heavy use unless you connect a lot of places
22:35:00 <Nat_aS> unlike OTTD where passingers show up even if they have nowhere intresting to go
22:38:26 <Sleepie> there also many links to previous attempts the other specs
22:39:46 <Sleepie> personally I'm quite happy with current airport system, because I'm more interested in trains
22:41:19 <Sleepie> modular airports would still be a nice feature though
22:44:13 <Sleepie> some improvements on ship transport would be cool
22:44:39 <Nat_aS> also boat speed factor
22:44:48 <Nat_aS> because waiting for boats is fustrating on large maps
22:45:12 <Nat_aS> i want to build container ports
22:45:36 <Sleepie> and improved pathfinder for ships
22:46:00 <Sleepie> so they cannot drive through each other
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