IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-24
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00:00:36 <Supercheese> mentioning that in thread now
00:02:06 <Supercheese> lemme check license on DWE, see if I can send you the edited .grf
00:05:32 <Sleepie> well than everything can be reused
00:06:54 <Supercheese> Hmm, how to fix sprite order issues... code the pipeline stations as groundtiles?
00:07:04 * Supercheese does not know how to do that, however
00:08:02 <Sleepie> from what I know stations are more difficult than other stuff
00:08:50 <Sleepie> ideally DWE will be enhanced with some adapters when LaDoncella pipe set has evolved
00:09:09 <Supercheese> Crap, NML doesn't support stations
00:09:47 <Sleepie> because its more complex
00:10:33 <Sleepie> but I'm sure it will...
00:11:02 <Supercheese> yeah, DWE has cool pipehouses, flame exhausts, underpasses, splits, etc
00:11:21 <Supercheese> I guess you'd just need an adapter sprite that goes between the two pipe styles?
00:11:29 <Sleepie> true many fancy eyecandy
00:11:48 <Supercheese> the T-junction is especially neat
00:12:07 <Supercheese> 3 pipes fly over 3 pipes
00:12:19 <Supercheese> well, 2 fly over, 1 just Ts in directly
00:12:23 <Sleepie> I'm still try to catch up I'm back to TTD for about 3 weeks now
00:12:46 <Sleepie> and was away for about 4 years or so
00:13:15 <Sleepie> so lots of new stuff to explore and try out
00:16:33 <Sleepie> well bedtime for me now, g' night
00:16:54 <Supercheese> Vale, dormiture ;)
00:25:28 <Supercheese> Be back later, folks
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06:27:34 * Supercheese kind of likes the old style better
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06:56:58 <Alberth> ho, more uncoded sprites
07:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think you should cut the sprites off at the front, not at the end
07:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or alternatively, use zoomed-out sprites
07:13:04 <NGC3982> zoomed out feels preferable to sprites being cut-off.
07:13:16 <NGC3982> as long as it doesnt look wierd
07:13:23 <NGC3982> completely out of context
07:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: english only!
07:16:07 <__ln__> good @343/1.609 everyone!
07:17:31 <__ln__> NGC3982: the current timezone-agnostic timestamp.
07:18:48 <andythenorth> zoomed out was tried before for 2CC ship set, looks truly terrible
07:19:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there is a trivial alternative solution
07:20:02 <andythenorth> as I compile nml -> nfo anyway, I could just use a string replacement step in my build to insert setx
07:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think in CETS i just used spaces
07:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> which is problematic with font sizes
07:20:41 <andythenorth> spaces also fails for other places the name string is used
07:20:50 <andythenorth> spaces was my first solution :)
07:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that i don't need so many :)
07:22:09 <andythenorth> so is setx deprecated or not?
07:22:35 <andythenorth> or is it in deprecated-but-legacy-support-will-be-maintained limbo land?
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07:26:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the latter i think
07:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows it's known to break, but nobody dares remove it
07:35:15 <andythenorth> so deprecated but not deprecated :P
07:35:41 <andythenorth> if buy menu width was solved automatically, we would remove it though
07:36:05 <andythenorth> let's decapitate setx
07:44:23 * andythenorth sanitises FISH code a bit
07:45:29 <NGC3982> andythenorth: i must say, i admire your constant work with this.
07:45:44 <andythenorth> yes, I'm doing very well
07:45:52 <andythenorth> so far I have a more broken set with fewer vehicles in
07:45:56 <andythenorth> and probably lots of new bugs
07:46:03 <NGC3982> bugs are made for eating
07:46:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I'd consider setx deprecated. For now it will be supported for hysterical raisins. But... you never know ;-)
07:46:11 <NGC3982> (yes, im from that kind of country)
07:46:31 <planetmaker> NewGRF specs don't change as fast as Apple APIs ;-)
07:46:58 <planetmaker> (but faster than windows APIs are removed)
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07:47:47 <andythenorth> if someone actually fixed buy menu, setx could go. newgrf author complaints could be ignored
07:47:54 <andythenorth> but fixing it seems to be hard
07:50:16 <peter1138> if you didn't draw sprites too big...?
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07:56:35 <andythenorth> so...a smallish fast tanker which also refits passengers / mail?
07:56:38 <andythenorth> for island trading?
07:56:45 <andythenorth> mostly I think tankers don't refit pax
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08:02:36 <peter1138> ships need that multiple cargos thing
08:02:56 <peter1138> without hiding it in articulation or shadows, heh
08:03:18 <andythenorth> that would mean redesigning FISH again
08:03:22 <andythenorth> which I'm just doing now
08:03:47 <andythenorth> this is only the third redesign of the set though
08:03:57 <andythenorth> another is probably fine :P
08:05:01 <andythenorth> actually....might be fine
08:05:06 <andythenorth> I just use those props
08:05:35 <andythenorth> and refit/autorefit subdivides the amount for cargo_holds and tanks as required
08:07:56 <NGC3982> this will make a fine day
08:08:00 <NGC3982> im the only supervisor
08:08:19 <NGC3982> and there are four customer service teams, and 62 salesmen here today.
08:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you wanted to quit cold turkey! [where the hell does this expression come from?]
08:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can you test www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list.diff for me (initial somewhat hacky stuff)
08:24:10 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: it's odd.
08:25:42 <NGC3982> "A narrowing of the meaning "suddenly or without preparation," from cold turkey being a dish that requires little preparation; originally used for heroin addicts.[7]"
08:25:52 <NGC3982> sounds fairly logical
08:26:10 <NGC3982> and: "From the American phrase talk turkey meaning "to speak bluntly with little preparation"*
08:26:19 * andythenorth needs a list of sea areas for asia pacific
08:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but isn't "cold turkey" more like "leftovers from yesterday"?
08:28:19 <NGC3982> "Reference to the periods after Christmas and Thanksgiving holidays where cold (leftover) turkey was likely to be eaten, coinciding with the end of those holidays' characteristically high alcohol consumption. [10]"
08:28:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: patch: **** Only garbage was found in the patch input.
08:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: curl -L
08:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> we talked about this :p
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08:31:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: looks like it will work for ships; haven't tested other types
08:31:59 <andythenorth> rvs got very wide :P
08:32:59 <andythenorth> also...I don't have a way to test RTL lang
08:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just select a language?
08:34:27 <andythenorth> who has RTL? Arabic?
08:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that may need some debugging... looks like all vehicle types now got the max width
08:35:46 * andythenorth considers translations for FISH
08:36:08 <andythenorth> most of the ship names are drawn from sea area names
08:36:17 <andythenorth> in europe / north america
08:36:33 * Terkhen would be able to do it this weekend
08:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> oh right that may be my fuckup...
08:36:56 <Terkhen> I probably would not translate model names though
08:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> used max instead of min
08:37:11 <andythenorth> Terkhen: probably right :P
08:37:20 <andythenorth> it just amuses me as an idea
08:37:40 <andythenorth> localisation of the model name might be valid for ships
08:38:29 <Terkhen> if some of them still have generic names then yes
08:38:42 <andythenorth> they don't really
08:39:00 <andythenorth> also, metareas don't seem to be interestingly named outside of eu/na
08:41:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can you reload the diff?
08:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vehicle names cannot be translated
08:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, actually, they can
08:43:03 <andythenorth> that can't be *all* russian metarea names :P
08:43:40 <Alberth> LordAro: WWT_LAST and _MASK should not be there, the quote in 'Flags' is obsolete, and the other values belong to only one widget, they are not general
08:43:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: all vehicles still taking width of widest
08:43:54 <andythenorth> for all vehicle types
08:44:19 <LordAro> it was a work in progress :L
08:44:19 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: does the north germanic languages use 'cold turkey' (except sweden, wish doesnt)?
08:44:26 <LordAro> but noted, will do so
08:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* actually upload the file
08:44:28 <andythenorth> there's no way curl would have cached the diff, yes / no?
08:44:33 <NGC3982> or west, for that matter
08:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i haven't heard that expression in german
08:45:56 * andythenorth discovers a goldmine of metarea names
08:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try again
08:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a penetrant *miau* coming from the side...
08:48:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: now back to default widths, except with some padding gone ;)
08:49:00 <andythenorth> my sprites are cropped
08:49:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that's weird
08:49:55 <andythenorth> my sprites were cropped
08:50:28 <andythenorth> my grf is setup to crop to 70px atm
08:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> please try with different crop values
08:51:21 <andythenorth> that's with 140px
08:51:34 <andythenorth> some of the oddities relate to my bounding box + offsets
08:52:05 <andythenorth> let me try adjusting those
08:52:08 <andythenorth> this will take a few mins
08:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> drawing offset may be wrong
08:52:57 <NGC3982> i really like the design on those ships
08:53:16 <andythenorth> if I use -70px for my x_offs
08:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: are all ships the same size?
08:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or are the top ones shorter?
08:54:15 <andythenorth> yes, they're 70px
08:54:34 <andythenorth> I'd need to change a few more things to get a wholly valid test
08:54:47 <andythenorth> e.g. I have white px etc
08:54:58 <andythenorth> I suspect it basically works though
08:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so the width is correct then, just your offsets are skewed because of the previous work to un-center them
08:55:26 <andythenorth> I think you have a 70px drawing offset issue
08:55:42 <andythenorth> and you might want some few px padding x before text starts drawing
08:56:32 <andythenorth> also, we might want 1px padding between edge of buy menu and start of sprite
08:56:55 <andythenorth> actually 2px, according to default sprites
08:57:03 <andythenorth> relying on authors to set that is...dubious
08:57:24 <andythenorth> oh, can't do that, it will change default sprites :P
08:59:02 <andythenorth> oh Angola, the romance of the high seas, with the exciting metarea name "Zone III"
08:59:20 <andythenorth> if you're not British, you may have no idea why this is such a big deal
09:04:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what's the xofs on your buy menu sprite?
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09:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you ask questions... :)
09:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> sprite picker says -16
09:07:12 <andythenorth> I think it's -33
09:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well ideally this would work without changing the grf
09:11:37 <andythenorth> if it works transparently, we can deprecate setx
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10:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i can't think of any way to properly adapt to GRFs that made hacky stuff to circumvent the old left border of the window
10:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it'll not be "broken", just it will have a larger gap on the left
10:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but on the whole i deem this patch "working" now, just needs a little code cleanup
10:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and a decision on minimum/maximum sizes
10:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and the padding that we talked about
10:10:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, which patch?
10:15:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: largest ships in FISH are 139px – view
10:15:10 <andythenorth> and they are known to clip
10:15:17 <andythenorth> in old FISH I had width of...
10:15:46 <planetmaker> tbh, I like the idea to use the sprite size within a clamp
10:16:00 <planetmaker> even if breaking old newgrfs with setx somewhat
10:16:02 <andythenorth> old FISH used max 118px with crop
10:16:09 <andythenorth> (crop if larger)
10:16:21 <andythenorth> anything bigger gets unpleasant
10:17:41 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you might then at the same time as subsequent patch add the removal (ignore) of setx
10:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's no reason why that person must be me
10:24:20 <Alberth> Hirundo: nml is way too fast now, I can't even finish my coffee ;)
10:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how does this affect CETS before my speed pitfall avoidance patches? (r548/549)?
10:30:24 <andythenorth> :P FISH is same speed with new nml
10:30:36 <andythenorth> I guess nml -> nfo builds don't benefit so much :)
10:30:45 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I don't understand that question
10:31:05 <Alberth> andythenorth: nope, it caches generated sprites, so the second and further runs benefit
10:31:35 <andythenorth> is the caching affected by a make clean? Or is it internal to nml?
10:31:48 <Hirundo> It saves stuff in *.grf.cache[index]
10:31:52 <Alberth> you get two extra cache files
10:32:00 <Hirundo> So it depends on what your make clean does
10:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> one would expect make clean to remove those files
10:32:39 <Alberth> andythenorth: and you can unignore parsetab.py :)
10:34:16 <Hirundo> I'm still trying to make writing sprites (esp. uncompressed with -u) significantly faster
10:35:16 <Hirundo> With compression enabled LZ77 remains the major timesink, while I can tinker a bit with it I don't know how to get an order-of-magnitude improvement there
10:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i isolated 3 separate (avoidable) speed issues in nml, which i handled with CETS commits r548 (separate run for creating deps), r549 (encoding sprites) and r660 (evaluating larger expressions in templates)
10:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the one thing that i couldn't avoid was parsing the nml file ;)
10:37:43 <Alberth> ok, well, I have no clue about them
10:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, i was mainly asking which of those are affected by the recent changes, and how that changes the before/after time
10:39:20 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, I am only working on zbase{,build}, Hirundo did all the speedup work
10:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i could probably build a parse tree in my generator script and pass that directly to nml ;)
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10:40:26 <Alberth> you can also directly write grf bytes, much faster :p
10:40:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt padding between sprite and name, I suggest 2px
10:40:35 <andythenorth> based on default game
10:42:01 <Hirundo> NML should have a lisp-like syntax, so you can easily build parse trees
10:42:15 <Hirundo> And then write more lisp to generate the lisp for you
10:42:57 <andythenorth> write lisp to write the lisp to generate the lisp
10:43:06 <andythenorth> write a lisp AI to do all of the above for you
10:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: welcome to higher level functions ;)
10:43:28 <Hirundo> "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
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10:48:43 <Alberth> Hirundo: obviously, you should use xml instead
10:49:54 <Hirundo> <vehicle><speed>100</speed></vehicle> looks okay-ish
10:50:19 <Hirundo> <sprite><xpos>10</xpos><ypos>20</ypos> .... less so :-)
10:51:29 * andythenorth could work that way :P
10:51:45 <andythenorth> it's all just an intermediate format to me
12:43:37 * andythenorth has added tankers to FISH
12:44:00 <andythenorth> they're almost same as equivalent coaster, but capacity is higher
12:44:28 <andythenorth> maybe loading speed should be higher
12:44:38 <andythenorth> but loading speed is a 'meh' thing anyway
12:44:40 * telanus wonder if more hovercrafts will get added
12:44:52 <andythenorth> telanus: yes, there are some renders that need shading
12:44:56 <andythenorth> at least two, maybe three
12:47:38 <andythenorth> what's this 'retire early' thing?
12:47:50 <andythenorth> I've never understood it
12:55:08 * NGC3982 wouldnt mind, thats for sure.
12:55:28 * Pinkbeast would not say no to a job to retire from.
12:55:50 <andythenorth> not quite the answer I was looking for :P
12:56:07 <andythenorth> if jobs are so scarce, why do I know so many people who can't hire?
12:56:25 <andythenorth> are we building a world which needs skills that can't be supplied?
12:56:45 <Pinkbeast> I'd have one by now if I was willing to fly, realistically, so it's my own lookout
12:57:49 <andythenorth> my twitter feed is mostly just people looking for developers, account managers, salespeople, social media people, marketers etc
12:58:43 <NGC3982> this is actually something that puzzles me
12:58:49 <Pinkbeast> UNIX systems administrators? :-/
12:58:53 <NGC3982> most of you are clearly active with serious ttd word on daily basis
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12:59:06 <NGC3982> wich makes me think most of you work more on this then with an actual job
13:00:13 <NGC3982> since, the thing is, if i was to finance a rocket-science-developer-coding-cosmology project, id' know where to turn. :p
13:00:41 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: where are you (approximate continent)?
13:00:54 <Pinkbeast> NGC: ... presumably "not to people who work more on openTTD than their actual jobs". :-)
13:00:56 <__ln__> too bad the only rocket scientist isn't here actively anymore
13:01:01 <Pinkbeast> Approximately Cambridge, UK
13:01:23 <NGC3982> jobs are never hard to find.
13:01:26 * andythenorth is the proud owner of a kanban backlog full of sysadmin tasks :P
13:02:00 <Belugas> [09:00] <NGC3982> Belugas: nooner's!
13:02:36 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: got commercial experience? :P
13:02:52 <NGC3982> Belugas: well, sorry. it's a bit hard to track individual planetary rotation out here i deep space.
13:03:06 <Pinkbeast> Contracting, no, but I did leave... uh, let's say a very large databse firm that begins with an O after a decade, last year.
13:03:20 * andythenorth is currently in the unusual situation of having more money than developers temporarily
13:03:26 <andythenorth> which also implies more work than developers to do it
13:03:36 <andythenorth> this is not the common case for the last 4 years or so :P
13:04:21 <andythenorth> what I really need is a sysadmin in Australia so other people can stop getting up at horrible times for pingdom
13:04:40 <Pinkbeast> 3 years in academia before that, 1 year at a small ISP, and now you know how old I am. I do fail the "in Australia" criterion by about as much as is possible, though.
13:05:03 <andythenorth> I am, globally speaking, in the same place as you :P
13:05:10 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, but if you would fly... :-P
13:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> \^o^/ <-- batman costumes are forbidden!
13:05:26 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: I still wouldn't go and live in Australia. :-)
13:05:33 <andythenorth> NGC3982: to answer your earlier question, I have plenty of work
13:05:35 <andythenorth> I'm just sick today
13:05:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not where we live. Luckily :-)
13:05:41 <NGC3982> andythenorth: ah, i see.
13:05:53 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, no worries mate ;-) But it's a nice place
13:06:03 <andythenorth> maybe pikka can do sysadmin? :P
13:06:10 <andythenorth> wtf is pikka anyway?
13:06:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I need to understand this silly 'retire early' thing for vehicles
13:06:33 <planetmaker> he used to drive busses. But now...? Haven't heart of him lately
13:06:34 <andythenorth> or rather, I need an implmentation
13:06:35 <NGC3982> i could use a coder, a sysadmin, a cisco-mo-man and a new staff of customer service bosses.
13:06:49 <Pinkbeast> planet: It may well be but all the native wildlife is utterly deadly (and more seriously, everyone I know, including my Aussie ex, lives here).
13:07:10 <planetmaker> you care about your ex? Peculiar
13:07:42 * NGC3982 wildlife is utter boredom.
13:07:48 <Pinkbeast> We get on well enough, yeah - I think other than my first girlfriend, who's vanished, I get on with all of mine these days.
13:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: retire early ~= vehicle lifetime; model lifetime ~= purchase availability + vehicle lifetime
13:11:35 <NGC3982> planetmaker: did you know, your name is fantastic in sweden.
13:12:10 <andythenorth> these big boats look *so* stupid in rivers :P
13:12:11 <NGC3982> ingo is a legendary (chubby) boxer, and borstel is sort of ..an eletrocuted broom.
13:12:58 <NGC3982> planaet: where are these pictures taken?
13:13:52 <planetmaker> The one I linked is taken in Bremen
13:14:25 <planetmaker> But it varies. Whereever I am ;-)
13:21:52 <andythenorth> don't tell pikka
13:21:59 <andythenorth> but I think UKRS 1 is cuter than UKRS 2
13:22:07 <andythenorth> due to larger size
13:22:26 * Pinkbeast ... yes. But I guess if it wasn't to look daft next to NARS...
13:23:56 <Pinkbeast> Also (although this isn't his fault, since it's mostly the addon sets) UKRS2 has this confusion between "this is a generic locomotive representing most big 4-6-0 mixed traffic types" and "here is a separate model for each big Pacific"
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13:24:28 <Pinkbeast> Also, hello, 2cc livestock cars. :-/
13:27:15 <NGC3982> wat, there is a ukrs1?
13:28:56 <NGC3982> i always thought the 2 was the addon
13:29:13 * Pinkbeast looks at the comparison picture on PikkaWiki but is biassed by the way the UKRS2 A4 has no side skirts as any sane person would favour
13:29:40 <Pinkbeast> NGC: Perhaps you should be asking, what, there's an UKRS2?
13:30:08 <andythenorth> UKRS 2 is too squinty for my old eyes
13:30:57 <Pinkbeast> Don't play at 1600xlots? Seriously, I've been deliberately lowering the resolution - it's a pain when I want six stations and four trains' windows open, but it looks better in a way.
13:31:06 <andythenorth> I can't change res
13:31:25 <Pinkbeast> Awkward laptop display?
13:31:33 <planetmaker> 2x makes for a good default view actually IMHO
13:31:50 <NGC3982> you people have way to few monitors.
13:32:42 <Pinkbeast> Yes, NGC, there is an UKRS2. You can start in 1830 or so with 2-2-2 Planets if you like. And don't want to move any cargo until 1844.
13:33:00 <andythenorth> actually laptop display does change res
13:33:10 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: im playing it on my server right now, and have been playing it for six months or something.
13:33:31 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: i have simply never seen the "2".
13:33:54 * Pinkbeast winces deeply every time he sees an old 4:3 game stretched to 16:9, but as far as I can tell 90% of humanity are totally oblivious to aspect ratio issues.
13:33:57 <NGC3982> 176.10.235.187:3979, btw.
13:34:28 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: that depends. playing a game in stretched to 16:9 can be more comfortable then playing 4:3, even if quality suffers.
13:34:28 <Pinkbeast> Ah. Sorry. If you'd like me to tell you anything else you already know, just say. :-(
13:35:01 <Pinkbeast> more comfortable - if, unlike me, you do not wince deeply every time you look at it.
13:35:32 <NGC3982> at least with the games i tried it with. zeus, aoe, settlers, and so on.
13:35:38 * Pinkbeast wants a device like TV-Be-Gone except instead of "Off" it sends "Change aspect ratio" for all makes of TV.
13:35:43 <Pinkbeast> Have you seen Widelands?
13:36:17 <Pinkbeast> It's a Free Settlers 2 clone, and - like OTTD - is past the original by now (except that the single-player is woefully short)
13:36:45 <NGC3982> why do i miss these things
13:36:57 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: thank you, ill try it.
13:36:59 <andythenorth> I should play 800x500
13:37:05 <andythenorth> it makes the gui way more usable
13:37:10 <andythenorth> and makes me less annoyed
13:37:19 <Pinkbeast> The big change is setting quotas for wares, so you don't have to micromanage turning workshops on and off.
13:37:21 <andythenorth> I think I don't play the game much because it hurts my eyes
13:37:35 <andythenorth> but I can't play 800x500 unless I play full screen
13:37:41 <andythenorth> and full screen sucks for newgrf dev
13:37:49 <Pinkbeast> Oh, and military control is first-come-first-served; you can't push someone's borders back without attacking.
13:38:40 <NGC3982> andythenorth: surely, multiple screens is the choice for grf development?
13:38:43 <Pinkbeast> Multiple monitors may be the answer (he says, sitting at a single 21" tube)
13:38:52 <NGC3982> -the choice + the better choice.
13:39:20 <andythenorth> yeah, multiple screens would be the way forward
13:39:22 <Pinkbeast> Hey, it still works. And in winter it's not so much of a liability. :-)
13:39:29 <andythenorth> do you have a portable, battery powered screen?
13:39:30 <Pinkbeast> Plus if chavs break in they're not going to nick it. :-)
13:39:41 <andythenorth> that I can carry along with a laptop and a toddler?
13:40:16 <Pinkbeast> Wait, Andy, you've got a job _and_ a child _and_ you crank out OTTD stuff? Do you ever sleep?
13:40:19 * NGC3982 is never going to have kids.
13:41:00 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: no, he doesnt. observing andy's IRC habits, ill say he's on heroin or something.
13:41:10 * Pinkbeast is much fonder of the 19" low-footprint tube in the other room, but this one is... bigger.
13:41:20 <NGC3982> or, he has stumbled upon some kind of time dilation mechanism we don't know about
13:41:46 <Pinkbeast> Don't say "never" have kids until you've got your tubes safely tied. Trust me, I have. :-)
13:41:52 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: for god sake, the power costs of a tube monitor is higher then the cost of a new (bloody) flat monitor.
13:42:12 <NGC3982> i lost my "tubes" in an electrical accident a few years ago
13:42:19 <NGC3982> so yes, im sure (and a bit more).
13:42:46 <Pinkbeast> Oh, bad luck, I assumed you were describing a voluntary state of affairs. Remove foot from mouth, etc.
13:42:49 <__ln__> NGC3982: i don't think "tubes" consume significantly more electricity than flats
13:43:25 <__ln__> NGC3982: something around ~70-80 watts both.
13:43:47 <Pinkbeast> Also this flat's quite cool and I'm quite nocturnal - for at least some of the year, it's that or burn gas heating the spodroom, although I'm quite resistant to having the heating on as a rule.
13:43:48 * andythenorth has learnt to function adequately on limited sleep
13:43:55 <__ln__> led might make a difference.
13:44:24 <NGC3982> this was a newspaper stacker machine, with 64A three phase connection.
13:44:38 <NGC3982> i was to adjust a motor switch and used the wrong tool.
13:44:42 <NGC3982> dumb and young, as i was.
13:44:59 <NGC3982> s/connection/connections/
13:45:05 <Pinkbeast> Christ, I'm glad the worst I ever got from that kind of thing was a titanium plate in my jaw.
13:45:49 <Pinkbeast> Well, at least it'll be hard to break it again. Assuming I remember to hit the ground with the left-hand side of my face next time.
13:47:27 <Pinkbeast> I remember the moment at the top of the arc when I thought "oh, shit, here we go" as being quite long, but I think that's entirely retroactive memory.
13:48:08 <NGC3982> yes, moments like that seems to go on forever
13:48:11 <Pinkbeast> I was climbing over a fence and gave myself a boost up of excessive force
13:48:12 <NGC3982> but it's a memory thing.
13:48:50 <Pinkbeast> So basically I faceplanted from standing on something about 4' off the ground. "I know, I'll bounce off that broad flat surface and be in a lot of pain."
13:50:01 <NGC3982> i dont remember any pain at all, wish is a bit nice.
13:50:13 <NGC3982> i went to work, everything went black, i woke up three weeks later.
13:50:27 <Pinkbeast> Well, predictably, it didn't really hurt a great deal until I'd dealt with picking self up, picking bicycle up, getting to road, calling ambulance, etc. Adrenalin.
13:50:28 <NGC3982> filled with painkillers
13:51:14 * Pinkbeast thinks back... I was still doing pretty well when the ambulance turned up; I waved enthusiastically at them from the other side of the road, and they pull up. "Where's the patient?"
13:51:49 <NGC3982> it's funny how the mind can react to serious accidents
13:51:55 <Pinkbeast> "Ah", I say (yes, I am wordy enough, I will talk with a broken jaw), "I have some news for you." At this point I infer that they notice that I'm covered in blood.
13:52:26 <NGC3982> i had this employee who took a fall in a marble stairway at the office
13:52:42 <Pinkbeast> Ambulancemen are _delighted_ to get a patient at 0300 on Sunday who is not blind drunk, it turns out. :-)
13:53:08 <NGC3982> he broke several ribs, the nose, blood everywhere, a concusion from seattle and back and constant bleeding from the ear. we was i such a chock he tried to manicly get back to work
13:53:14 <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: haha, i guess.
13:53:24 <Pinkbeast> That does sound excessively persistent.
13:54:05 <Pinkbeast> I've done a rib and it was way worse than the jaw - you spend a month telling people not to make you laugh.
13:57:19 <Pinkbeast> Basically with the jaw you eat mush for a month and that's it, job done, back to normal except you can't eat apples for months
13:58:14 <Pinkbeast> I did the rib in a bicycle prang, incidentally, just to introduce the tiniest sliver of transport relevance
14:01:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so for a ship with vehicle life 45 years, introduced in 1870
14:02:03 <andythenorth> what should retire early prop be?
14:02:30 <andythenorth> next equivalent model is introduced ~1904
14:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so vehicle life = 45, early retire = 45, model life = 1904-1870 + 45
14:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and a magic +4 somewhere
14:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which i have to look up
14:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> early retire = 45-4
14:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> assume to sprinkle in magic +1 or +2 for some overlap
14:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on playtesting
14:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> which nobody really did with CETs
14:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or i didn't get feedback
14:27:34 <NGC3982> guys, im noticing a lot of the english-to-swedish translation stuff is faulty with FIRS.
14:27:39 <NGC3982> where do i turn to help out?
14:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf development
14:30:49 <planetmaker> then post the updated language file in the forums. or open a ticket at FIRS issue tracker
14:37:07 <NGC3982> ill do it, thank you.
14:37:16 <NGC3982> for some reason, 40% of the industries are translated.
14:50:27 <Alberth> there is no infra structure to warn translators for out-of-date translations
15:27:20 <glx> Alberth: strings needing validation ?
15:30:12 <Alberth> devzone does generate such output, except it is hidden somewhat. Apparently it is not enough, or the process of changing strings is too cumbersome, or both.
15:30:12 <Alberth> For me personally, I'd like to have a web-page that shows what newgrfs need new strings
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16:37:09 <Terkhen> the devzone script is a hack :P
16:38:40 <Alberth> I have a so much more beautiful script, but it's not used :(
16:39:16 <Alberth> but even then, the information is hard to get imho
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17:15:02 * telanus is translating FIRS into Afrikaans
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17:44:44 <michi_cc> Hirundo: Under the assumption that "finished" GRFs usually don't contain many duplicate sprites there's probably not much use for it. I can think of a minor use case though, if, for whatever reason, you want the same sprites in a spriteset and a replace(new) block (maybe e.g. a railtype GRF, change signals just for this railtype or change the default signals).
17:45:36 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24434 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt french.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 14 changes by telanus
17:45:36 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by glx
17:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: he meant "cached between builds", so if you change code, the sprite encoding is skipped
17:57:27 <Hirundo> The cache also caches identical sprites in a single build
18:00:15 <Hirundo> michi_cc: I added your use case and my POV to the issue
18:00:19 <Alberth> it's not entirely the same I think. You cache based on input data, michi re-uses based on encoded sprites
18:01:06 <Alberth> ie when I duplicate a .png and use both, you have it twice in the cache, while it can be re-used
18:16:47 * telanus is 60% finished translating FIRS :D
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18:19:02 * andythenorth has discovered that OS X spaces (window manager thing, idea stolen from other *nix OSes) handles different screen resolutions ok
18:20:33 <andythenorth> it's openttd that's doing the right thing
18:20:57 <andythenorth> anyway, andythenorth can play lower res openttd
18:21:04 <andythenorth> which is considerably better as a thing to do
18:21:33 <andythenorth> 1280x800 sucks a bit
18:21:41 <andythenorth> 800x500 much nicer
18:26:09 * telanus always play at 1600x900
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19:30:38 <NGC3982> galaxies need a lot of energy, you know.
19:31:59 <frosch123> are you at least making some planets from time to time?
19:34:39 <Sleepie> maybe just black holes :P
19:34:46 <telanus> what's a "Smithy Forge"
19:36:26 <NGC3982> frosch123: my digestive systems create quite a few.
19:36:32 <NGC3982> although, its mostly gas.
19:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> telanus: a forge melts the metal and a smith forms molten metal, thus a smithy forge is a mixture of both
19:46:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or something like that
19:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> might as well be a word that andythenorth made up :p
19:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> telanus: anyway it's a less technologically advanced predecessor of the steel mill
19:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> for the pre-industrial economy of FIRS
19:51:29 <Belugas> too much Deathmole on the system, i got really aggressive with my boss
19:53:02 <telanus> I've only got the STR_EXTRA to translate for FIRS (30 lines), When I finish tommorow, where on the forum must I upload it?
19:56:17 <andythenorth> there are other kinds of metalworking forge
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20:52:13 <andythenorth> a ship introduced in 1870, with vehicle life 45 years
20:52:18 <andythenorth> when should it expire?
20:52:21 <andythenorth> model life is 34 years
20:52:48 <andythenorth> model life is 79 years
20:52:51 <andythenorth> 'retire early' is 41 years
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20:53:25 <andythenorth> ship is still available in 2070
20:54:01 <Sleepie> 79 years sounds a bit long
20:55:29 <andythenorth> only 38 years for model life
20:55:47 <andythenorth> should be gone by 1925
20:57:24 <Sleepie> depends how many successors are introduced in 1925 already imho
20:59:29 <andythenorth> so also model expiry doesn't respect the date cheat :P
20:59:37 <andythenorth> for those of us testing sets :P
20:59:54 <andythenorth> fast forward on a set covering 150 years of gameplay?
21:00:06 * andythenorth needs some play testing drones :P
21:00:16 * andythenorth never makes feature requests
21:00:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: expiry method appears to work, on a sample size of 1 test with 1 vehicle
21:00:45 <andythenorth> cba to test more :P
21:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so also model expiry doesn't respect the date cheat :P <-- needs "resetengines" afterwards, that reinitializes also the rerandomization, so you can effectively try "multiple games"
21:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't cover prototype phases and stuff
21:02:33 <andythenorth> anything to ease testing is welcome :)
21:03:11 <andythenorth> time for me to go to bed
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21:27:40 <__ln__> hmm, was there a particular name for the most powerful frequency in a spectrum?
21:29:55 <Noldo_> like if you take fourier transformation the term that has the biggest amplitude?
21:41:22 <__ln__> if it can even be called amplitude
21:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so a fury transformation turns you into a horse?
21:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so there's a harmonic element in the begining, but what's that peak later on?
21:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ("harmonic" in this sense means frequencies of 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 and so on of the original frequency)
21:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> before synthesizers, it was practiaclly impossible to make an instrument that produces a true sine wave
21:54:30 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: harmonics usually mean rather a multiple. Than a fraction
21:54:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant wavelength
21:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always mixing that up :)
21:55:15 <valhalla1w> __ln__: er, the dominant frequency? I cannot think of a more specific term.
21:55:49 <valhalla1w> + it seems to be in use by other people, which is a good check ;-)
21:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and was wondering whether that movie is known anywhere "western"
21:57:39 <__ln__> valhalla1w: sounds good
21:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (i believe it's a czech movie. it was quite popular here)
22:02:24 <__ln__> (doesn't look or sound familiar even though children's programmes in the 80's here contained some material from e.g. gdr and ussr)
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