IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-19
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06:33:51 <telanus> is it Morning already?
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07:19:33 <telanus1> hell My Telecom line sux today :(
07:22:53 <Alberth> find a new provider ?
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09:13:45 <peter1138> Anyone here rich enough to own a retina MBP yet? heh
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09:31:01 <Terkhen> some people in the forum are :P
09:34:08 <Alberth> some others refuse to support a company that does not support GPL
09:36:08 <peter1138> Oh, shall we drop Windows, OS X, OS/2 and Morphos support?
09:36:27 <peter1138> (Actually maybe not OS/2, I don't know what IBM are up to these days)
09:40:01 <Alberth> no need, the program gets buggy on its own in time due to lack of skilled people for the OS
09:53:13 <Terkhen> well, windows license does not prevent running GPL software (for now)
09:59:59 <Alberth> yep, and the VS2011 free compiler incident shows how reliable that is
10:01:24 <planetmaker> what was that incident?
10:05:49 <Alberth> "we're not going to release a free VS2011 compiler version", they changed their mind two weeks later
10:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with GPL?
10:07:26 <Alberth> cp Makefile.local.sample Makefile.local ; sed -i s/_V = @/_V =/ Makefile.local is supposed to give me echo-ing of commands as they are executed?
10:07:49 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it nicely demonstrates how much they care about developers not under their control
10:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds awfully conspiracy-y to me...
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10:10:13 <planetmaker> Alberth: just use make _V=
10:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone else having Civ2 crashing in wine? (apparently in winevdm.exe) ... also the sound is distorted (probably related)
10:10:34 <planetmaker> but yes, doing that in Makefile.local also works. I meant as command line parameter
10:10:43 <Alberth> there are toooo many makefiles
10:11:17 <planetmaker> when calling make. You can instead of just "make" use "make _V="
10:12:29 <planetmaker> when merging opengfx and zbase
10:13:03 <planetmaker> it really needs formatted strings in nml templates :-)
10:13:27 <planetmaker> would make it much shorter
10:13:45 <Hirundo> planetmaker: wait 5 minutes... :-)
10:13:58 <planetmaker> as then the filename offsets like you defined (in the now deleted generation) can be used there
10:14:09 <planetmaker> Hirundo: just playing. Not committing anything :-)
10:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> just allow string-concatenation?
10:14:59 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: "%04d" % (base+offset)
10:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> very python-ish :)
10:17:14 <Hirundo> It will be format_string("%s%04d", "zBase", 12)
10:17:46 <Hirundo> With possibly template foo(a, b) ... format_string("%s%d", a, b)
10:22:24 <Terkhen> Alberth: that's why I said for now :P
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12:36:27 <dihedral> :o glx did not say hello :-(
12:36:43 <glx> I rarely say hello here ;)
12:37:45 <dihedral> peter1138, i thought Microsoft did support OpenSource (with a certain definition of 'support')
12:50:21 <Belugas> i (most of the time) always do, me!
13:00:37 <peter1138> Hurr, executing an UPDATE in SQL. So far it's taken 2 hours 24 minutes...
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13:12:03 <dihedral> that must be one heck of a statement or there is a lock :-P
13:12:23 <Alberth> or a big query on a small machine :p
13:13:46 <Belugas> or an update on non indexed data fields...
13:16:42 <FLHerne> Is there a way to stop a running GS, similar to stop_ai?
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13:19:30 <FLHerne> Alternatively, is there any way to change GS settings without starting another game?
13:22:36 <planetmaker> I believe there is not
13:26:07 <FLHerne> Presumably in case of game breakage if the GS was doing something weird?
13:28:42 <Alberth> probably nobody has really thought about consequences of such actions at all
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13:34:16 <planetmaker> better safe than sorry ;-)
13:34:40 <planetmaker> game scripts are married to a map as much as newgrfs are
13:45:30 <FLHerne> planetmaker: But you can add/remove NewGRFs anyway :P
13:47:43 <planetmaker> Yep. And GameScripts set the rules properly from the start ;-)
13:50:12 <FLHerne> Ah well, crashed anyway. Now I can start again with better settings :-)
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15:21:01 <peter1138> (13:59:52) peter1138: Hurr, executing an UPDATE in SQL. So far it's taken 2 hours 24 minutes...
15:21:09 <peter1138> Final execution time: 4 hours 18 minutes...
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15:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> at least SQL commands are guaranteed to terminate :)
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15:47:27 <Rubidium> peter1138: only 4 hours... did a 'EXEC sp_msmakegeneration' a few days ago which took a bit more than 18 hours
15:49:15 <Rubidium> and that code didn't look really optimised; felt like it has at least O(n**2) behaviour, since the longer it was running the slower it became
15:50:03 <Rubidium> but that might be because I removed 8 million records at once; if I would have done them 100k at a time with runs to msmakegeneration it would be done way within 15 minutes
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15:55:54 <andythenorth> might have to redraw all the graphics to 2x zoom level
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15:56:02 <andythenorth> that will keep me busy
15:56:18 <planetmaker> make models, andythenorth ;-)
15:58:29 <planetmaker> and script the rest so that you can hit "make render && make grf" :-P
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16:09:57 <planetmaker> @kban IrcCrasherDeveloper
16:09:57 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: IrcCrasherDeveloper is not in #openttd.
16:10:02 <planetmaker> @ban IrcCrasherDeveloper
16:10:10 <planetmaker> silly advertizement
16:11:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v peter1138
16:11:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth
16:12:55 <andythenorth> I can build tunnels on coast
16:12:59 <andythenorth> didn't know that
16:13:11 <planetmaker> always or if you bulldoze first?
16:13:46 <andythenorth> nice with the canal on water trick
16:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i used that in my YACD game to fit the transrapid in
16:15:42 * andythenorth likes the tactic
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16:53:17 <peter1138> Rubidium: the 'interesting' part is there was neither CPU, RAM or IO load during any of it.
16:53:28 <peter1138> So I really wonder what it was doing all that time.
16:53:42 <peter1138> CPU constantly at 1-2%
16:53:46 <peter1138> RAM constantly at 2GB used
16:54:09 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe there was disk IO, but I'd expect that to consume CPU cycles if it's busy.
16:54:21 <Rubidium> peter1138: if it's mssql you could look at the activity monitor
16:54:51 <Rubidium> and it might just have been waiting on some table lock
16:57:14 <Rubidium> in my experience it's usually disk io that kills SQL performance
17:00:47 <Rubidium> possibly the SQL is configured to use max 2GB. If it reached that, it's unlikely to return that, unless the system is under memory pressure
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17:20:01 * andythenorth made a dumb mistake
17:20:08 <andythenorth> cargo subtype != subtype string
17:20:32 <andythenorth> so "foo (Tanker)" and "bar (Cargo vessel)" are both refit cycle 0 :P
17:20:39 <andythenorth> this fucks with my plan tbh :P
17:21:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get another plan :P
17:21:39 * FLHerne gets tied up in incomprehensibly recursive macros :-(
17:21:56 <andythenorth> avoid macros at all costs
17:22:07 <andythenorth> every time you use a macro a kitten dies
17:22:19 <andythenorth> every time you recurse a macro, an entire species of kitten dies
17:22:43 <andythenorth> macros are a necessary evil, best avoided
17:23:09 <andythenorth> string replacement, based on proper methods of proper first class objects
17:24:37 <andythenorth> maybe he peter1138 likes macros :(
17:25:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It autogenerates NML fine, but every time I edit it it autogenerates gibberish instead :P
17:26:28 <FLHerne> m4, as I said yesterday. Still trying to wrap my mind round the way it recurses :P
17:27:56 <andythenorth> I don't know m4, but if someone else looks, you'll see the problem
17:28:06 <FLHerne> Nah, I'll figure it out eventually :P
17:28:51 <FLHerne> Whenever I try to learn something, I manage to create total gibberish for a while :-)
17:31:32 <andythenorth> I have trolled myself into converting HEQS to trains :P
17:33:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Aaargh!
17:33:21 * FLHerne still thinks that's a bad idea :-(
17:45:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24415 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt german.txt italian.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:45:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: croatian - 6 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by planetmaker
17:45:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by nglekhoi
17:53:58 <planetmaker> FLHerne: m4 and nml: did you look at opengfx+train's (experimental) m4nml branch?
17:54:13 <planetmaker> xotic did some work there in that respect
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17:56:07 <FLHerne> planetmaker: No. I'm not trying to do anything that complex, though
17:57:23 <frosch123> anyone here running a ottd nightly windows 64bit?
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17:58:28 <andythenorth> when does 'extra buy menu text' become 'annoying spam' ?
17:58:47 <frosch123> when it contains an ascii art image of the vehicle
17:58:48 <planetmaker> 3rd line and more ;-)
17:58:54 <andythenorth> so far I have: ship type; refittable capacity information; propulsion information
17:59:12 <andythenorth> I could also add: loading speed (probly not); cargo aging factor; autorefit info
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17:59:37 <andythenorth> when is the new buy menu shipping?
17:59:46 <andythenorth> with the extended area for sprite
17:59:52 <planetmaker> autorefit hint might be nice
18:00:01 <planetmaker> loading speed... well...
18:00:16 <andythenorth> loading speed is 'meh' I think
18:00:54 <planetmaker> refittable to gear ratio?
18:01:14 <andythenorth> not for ships :P
18:01:44 <andythenorth> ship gear = cranes
18:01:52 <andythenorth> ships are ungeared, part-geared, or full-geared
18:02:06 <andythenorth> full-geared ship can reach 100% of it's load space with cranes
18:02:13 <andythenorth> more gear = less cargo capacity
18:02:27 * andythenorth ponders a cargo subtype for gear amount
18:02:34 <andythenorth> affects loading speed
18:03:06 <andythenorth> can anyone spell 'overkill' ? :P
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18:05:26 * andythenorth thinks up other ideas
18:05:35 <andythenorth> with a newgrf generator, it's so easy :P
18:05:56 <andythenorth> ships can steam slow (efficient, cheap), or fast (deliver cargo quicker)
18:06:08 <andythenorth> ships can be ice capable, or not
18:06:54 <andythenorth> ships can have lots of crew (expensive), or legal minimums (more breakdowns)
18:07:30 <andythenorth> ship safe max load can vary between salt water and fresh water
18:07:50 <andythenorth> ships can have refrigeration equipment or not
18:09:45 <andythenorth> newgrfs can have combinatorial explosion of refit menu
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18:23:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: We don't have ice yet :P
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18:28:20 <andythenorth> ice is just a matter of hacking rail types a bit
18:28:45 <andythenorth> make all water non-navigable
18:29:05 <andythenorth> then add rail types for ship route / ship route through ice
18:29:17 <andythenorth> and recode all ships as trains
18:29:27 * andythenorth is deadly serious
18:29:45 <andythenorth> unifying transport types is probably the best thing we could do right now
18:29:51 <andythenorth> unifying / deleting non-train types
18:29:51 <FLHerne> While you're at it, why not code helicopters as trains... :P
18:30:27 <andythenorth> it's fine, just do air lanes as tracks
18:30:47 <andythenorth> we'd need to implement them as current tile height +1
18:30:52 <andythenorth> and it would maybe need new map
18:31:09 <andythenorth> but then we could enforce plane separation etc
18:31:23 <andythenorth> ships-as-trains would no longer drive through each other, nor have infinite capacity
18:31:39 <andythenorth> we could stop discussing multi-stop docks
18:31:50 <andythenorth> and newgrf airports
18:32:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: it would be the ultimate comeback to "it's just a train game" :)
18:33:04 <Alberth> yes, no need to discuss new features, it's done
18:33:05 <andythenorth> this + the plan frosch123 suggested to make all object-y things 'cargo'
18:33:22 <andythenorth> we will need some trunk patches
18:33:31 <andythenorth> but mostly this can then be delegated to existing newgrf spec
18:34:01 <frosch123> i hope you are not quoting me out of context :)
18:34:16 <andythenorth> industries-are-just-cargo?
18:34:33 <Alberth> moving industries, finally!!
18:34:38 <andythenorth> maybe that was a fake-frosch :)
18:39:50 <NataS> hmm, if industries were produced in other industries, and had to be shipped to there construction site
18:40:03 <NataS> i mean some sets have construction materials
18:40:12 <NataS> but it just goes to towns
18:40:33 <NataS> a high value one time shipment that turns into a normal route after would be cool
18:46:57 <andythenorth> for autorefit (nml) is cb sufficient? or do I need flag as well?
18:50:53 <Alberth> NataS: try Settlers or Widelands ?
18:51:13 <TrueBrain> I am happy to annouance that the Compile Farm is back on its feet, and is compiling a new nightly as we speak; should be done in 20-ish minutes :)
18:51:38 <LordAro> what was the problem?
18:52:18 <TrueBrain> Java being java; it used 100% CPU no matter what; a cold restart solved the problem magically ... but in the meantime I did update all the software related to it, so meh :)
18:53:20 <TrueBrain> and Bamboo 4.1 is a lot better; lot of kewl new features :)
18:53:56 <LordAro> glad there was no huge problem
18:53:58 <TrueBrain> it also is a lot faster :)
18:54:05 <frosch123> ah, the farm reset the fail statistics
18:54:10 <frosch123> now it looks better again :)
18:54:43 <NataS> dosn't java have a wll publicized memory leak?
18:55:08 <TrueBrain> Java is a language; it is like saying C has a memory leak
18:55:12 <TrueBrain> it makes no sense (at all)
19:01:51 * telanus smiles, posted his fist post on the forum :D
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19:04:51 * andythenorth is falling asleep into his keyboard
19:04:55 <andythenorth> two nights of sick baby
19:05:03 <TrueBrain> that is rather painful
19:05:22 <TrueBrain> but that sucks ... babies should never be sick
19:05:46 <andythenorth> same again tonight
19:05:53 <andythenorth> not very sick, just awake and loud
19:06:21 * andythenorth thinks time to go ;)
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19:06:29 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24416 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix [FS#5231]: [Win32] Unbreak NewGRF MD5 sum calculation. Macros and side effects don't mix, especially if there's some obscure '#define min' in a windows header that nobody thinks of.
19:12:31 <TrueBrain> Nightly r24415 is now published! Party like it is 1999!
19:16:04 * Xaroth throws a bucket of water over Rubidium to wake him up
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19:18:30 <Rubidium> Xaroth: pff... you can't throw that far!
19:18:50 <Xaroth> same country, unless you're still online while on vacation, so not -that- far
19:21:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24417 /trunk/src/ (fileio_func.h ini.cpp os/windows/win32.cpp): -Codechange: [Win32] Don't needlessly include windows.h in a commonly used header.
19:58:58 <Supercheese> for (int i=0, i<100, i++)
20:00:46 <Xaroth> print "hi " * 10000000
20:01:00 <TrueBrain> @kick Xaroth it is no longer funny
20:01:00 *** Xaroth was kicked by DorpsGek (it is no longer funny)
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21:57:18 <Supercheese> I presume if I provide 32bpp sprites with the alternative_sprites block in NML, the resultant GRF automatically tells OTTD it prefers a 32bpp blitter, yes?
22:02:22 <FLHerne> When did that button to allow smaller toolbars come in?
22:02:49 <planetmaker> the looping arrow? longer than 4 years ago
22:03:14 <planetmaker> Supercheese: that assumption iirc is coorect
22:03:45 <FLHerne> Sure it wasn't there last time I looked...
22:04:40 <planetmaker> feel free to try old openttd versions. I'm quite sure it was already in 0.5
22:04:48 <FLHerne> Well, I wasn't playing four years ago, so it must have been there... :P
22:10:52 <planetmaker> hm, I just checked. September 2007 it was not present ;-)
22:11:59 <planetmaker> In 2009 it was present
22:14:00 <Sleepie> Which button you're talking about?
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22:15:10 <planetmaker> He. 2008 it was also not present. So it was introduced in 0.7
22:15:20 <planetmaker> nope. The toolbar toggle button
22:15:40 <planetmaker> which is only visible, if you make the window smaller than ~300px or so
22:16:03 * FLHerne wonders how he missed that
22:16:41 <FLHerne> I have some things with small screens, too :P Possibly not small enough though
22:17:30 <Supercheese> Oh, I've never made my window that small before
22:21:13 <Sleepie> a hidden feature? or is this documented in the wiki
22:21:31 * Sleepie goes reading the wiki
22:24:43 <planetmaker> I've seen it in the wiki
22:25:20 <Sleepie> i only found it in the changelog for 0.7 but not in the game interface docu
22:25:40 <Sleepie> I may have overlooked it though
22:27:31 <planetmaker> I don't see it where I exepected it
22:31:48 <planetmaker> [default | public] (9425) (svn r13339) -Feature: splitting of the main toolbar when the resolution becomes very low so the buttons are still visible and useable. Patch by Dominik.
22:32:17 <Sleepie> Yes thats what I mean it is missing on ^that wikipage...
22:32:58 <Sleepie> I will not a big deal
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22:33:55 <Sleepie> Do you have some tech infos like screensize to get this visible
22:34:26 <glx> less than 640px wide IIRC
22:34:26 <Sleepie> Otherwise I'll just make approximations by selftesting
22:34:47 <Sleepie> From what I see here it seems even less
22:35:06 <planetmaker> the toolbar itself is not 640px
22:36:46 <planetmaker> you might be right, glx
22:37:08 <planetmaker> but the button appears at 480 or so
22:38:12 <Sleepie> I think this value should be ok for the wiki
22:38:25 <Sleepie> I'll make a screenshot anyway
22:39:23 <planetmaker> 460 seems to be the limit here
22:39:31 <M1zera> I have one problem when I'm playing openttd...
22:40:11 <M1zera> my dream is to transfer everything on the map everywhere...
22:40:31 <M1zera> but I always get to point when I stop building new tracks and start watching trains...
22:41:02 <Sleepie> planetmaker: maybe it depends also on fullsceen or windowed mode and OS and Aero or Classic (Win) or ... ;)
22:41:30 <planetmaker> Sleepie: I'm moderately sure it doesn't
22:43:12 <Sleepie> planetmaker: fair enough I was quickly resizing the window
22:44:06 <Sleepie> and in the end who cares about 20 pixels
22:44:58 * Sleepie sometimes also just watches his trains...
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22:46:56 <Sleepie> planetmaker: I'll add to the wiki tomorrow and give you pointer for review
22:48:32 <planetmaker> "if we can't fit half the buttons and the panels anymore, split the toolbar in two */"
22:50:27 <Sleepie> toolbar_gui.cpp (1436) ;)
22:56:15 <Sleepie> so it depends if you are playing or creating maps
22:57:40 <Sleepie> for scenario editor it is about 300px to get the toggle button up
22:59:56 <planetmaker> yes. Toolbars are different
23:05:04 <Sleepie> And no statusbar in scenario editor
23:08:37 * Sleepie have a break for a smoke
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