IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-18
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08:56:27 <Alberth> nothing to see here, just a bunch of users that cannot be bothered to fix their connections
08:57:14 <NGC3982> maglev is almost cheating.
08:59:42 <dihedral> NGC3982, why is that?
09:00:10 <NGC3982> it's so easy it's almost boring
09:00:47 <NGC3982> although, my argument is not a serious one
09:00:52 <NGC3982> im just bored out of my mind.
09:05:59 <dihedral> then you are not challenging yourself properly
09:08:19 <planetmaker> NGC3982: use a very mountainous map. 40% water. terraform on water 1 million per tile. map size 256^2. starting date 1940. cargo weight factor 5
09:08:39 <planetmaker> bridge length < 10 tiles.
09:09:05 <planetmaker> recommended newgrfs: fish
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09:10:50 <NGC3982> planetmaker: difficulty level: planetmaker.
09:11:25 <planetmaker> I'd play without. To me they don't add to the game
09:11:38 <planetmaker> they just annoy me
09:11:49 <Alberth> you need more tracks to compensate for them
09:12:20 <planetmaker> yes and no. You can hardly build such that breakdowns won't block crucial points
09:12:52 <planetmaker> you can't make everything redundant as even then trains break on the lane switches
09:13:07 <planetmaker> so you can just leave that be to add further redundant tracks
09:13:25 <Alberth> you'll hit the upper limit of what you can put on a track much faster
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09:14:06 <planetmaker> I like networks at 95% capacity without breakdowns though :-)
09:14:35 <Alberth> mine are more 20%-40% used :)
09:16:04 <Alberth> I need to work on stations, in my current game, 5 platforms are not enough for unloading cargo
09:16:31 <Alberth> which for you is tiny, probably :)
09:18:11 <planetmaker> oh, that depends. On a 256^2 map that can be quite decent
09:18:53 <planetmaker> of course I did build bigger stations. But that's most often a matter of scaling a concept which fits itself onto 4, 6 or 8 tracks
09:19:46 <planetmaker> without breakdowns, you need 6 to 8 station tracks for a mainline running at full capacity
09:20:39 <planetmaker> assuming that the exit of the station is as good (fast) as the entry ;-)
09:21:07 <Alberth> 512x256, I'll make a few pictures
09:22:52 <peter1138> The problem with widescreen monitors is they encourage long lines of code...
09:24:22 <Alberth> yeah, we should have a max line length :p
09:24:45 * Alberth gives peter1138 a piece of paper and some tape
09:31:43 <planetmaker> the main problem I see there, Alberth, is the exit of the central coal station
09:31:52 <planetmaker> it can easily be blocked by a single train going diagonal
09:33:12 <NGC3982> limiting conjuctions usually speeds things up, as long as you keep track of the amount of queue time per tile.
09:33:17 <Alberth> that does not happen much, it is for exiting at the tunnel. Most of those trains take the rightmost platform and pose no proplem
09:34:07 <Alberth> NGC3982: coal is limited, you can go 1 platform left, straight, or 1 platform right
09:34:55 <planetmaker> also: you place signals immediately after the junction. Might not be optimal there
09:34:58 <Alberth> but the tracks are almost empty, they spend their time either loading or unloading
09:35:11 <planetmaker> the block signals I mean
09:35:32 <planetmaker> allow one train length so that no train can wait, blocking the exit
09:35:53 <Alberth> yeah, that can be improved indeed
09:36:26 <Alberth> but it sort of comes in heaps, all trains load, rush to this station, unload, go back etc
09:40:54 <planetmaker> yep. And congestion when it comes in heaps. ;-)
09:41:07 <planetmaker> I like networks with one continuous heap :-P
09:41:40 <planetmaker> it shows nicely the the efficiency of different building types
09:42:18 <planetmaker> and, tbh, most fun is to rebuild the stuff while upkeeping operation :-)
09:42:35 <Alberth> oh, I always do that :)
09:43:06 <Alberth> except when upgrading to a new rail type
09:43:22 <planetmaker> that's not feasible indeed. But... I hardly do that
09:43:34 <planetmaker> at least when it's an incompatible railtype
09:43:54 <planetmaker> like rail->mono->maglev rarely happens on my maps
09:44:10 <planetmaker> rail->erail works just by drag+drop the whole map :-P
09:44:29 <Alberth> I once did that by building new tracks and platforms etc everywhere in the new railtype, adding new trains, and then breaking down the old service
09:45:14 <Alberth> which is also a lot of fun, as there is no room for the new tracks :p
09:46:31 <Alberth> so either you have to make room, or you have to find a new place for them, or you have to reroute the old tracks to some temporary place
09:47:27 <Alberth> and usually you do combinations of the above :) "Sorry guys, you have just one track for this part now"
09:50:00 <planetmaker> yeah, something like that
09:50:05 <planetmaker> big station don't fit everywhere
09:51:39 <Alberth> maybe we should make the 'upgrade' button a cheat :p
09:53:46 <Pinkbeast> It's vexing enough when you are reminded, unpleasantly, that even with double-diagonal, there's only one track type per tile.
09:54:35 <planetmaker> Alberth: for incompatible maybe ;-)
09:54:51 <planetmaker> but then it will be cheated around by means of a "universal" railtype
09:54:57 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: yeah, you need a lot more space, unfortunately
09:55:18 <Pinkbeast> Particularly in the UKRS world where the whole network is not, ever, moving to maglev
09:58:51 <Alberth> Upgrading to a new railtype once is useful for the game imho, but doing it twice feels a bit forced due to lack of challenges imho
10:01:22 <planetmaker> it depends imho how it's used. By simply improving the existing rail, it's good
10:01:38 <planetmaker> like slow rail->medium rail->modern rail->highspeed rail
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10:03:06 <Alberth> It would be useful if railtypes are not so incompatible perhaps. rail->elrail is mostly fun as you can gradually upgrade
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10:03:54 <Varazir> Hello , can I setup my own server and where can I read how to do it ?
10:04:32 <Alberth> or search at the forums, there are many people posting about it
10:05:00 <Pinkbeast> NuTracks has done a lot here although it's a pity about the 16-type limit.
10:05:38 <planetmaker> there's basically no magic to it, Varazir. All you need to ensure is that the server is reachable via the necessary ports - as configured in the cfg
10:05:40 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
10:05:56 <Varazir> ya that's easy to setup
10:06:14 <Varazir> but where do I download the server ?
10:06:24 <planetmaker> then start openttd as multiplayer for the internet. Voila. No special binary
10:06:36 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: I should checkout NuTracks thus. Thanks
10:06:56 <planetmaker> every client can act as server
10:07:02 <Alberth> Varazir: the server program is just another openttd instance
10:09:13 <Varazir> I have a ESXi server I thought just install openttd on a linux system
10:10:40 <planetmaker> you *can* compile openttd without gui. But it's not needed
10:11:14 <Varazir> so I need to run it on a linux system that runs X ?
10:11:18 <Alberth> there are many servers already (more than we have clients). What we really need is a sever that is actively managed
10:12:01 <planetmaker> Varazir: if you want to use the pre-compiled binaries, you need X installed
10:12:15 <planetmaker> if you want a gui-less dedicated server, you need to compile yourself
10:12:31 <planetmaker> use an svn checkout for that exclusively
10:13:10 <Varazir> ok well I have a vm that's running ubuntu with X
10:13:40 <planetmaker> you'll need sdl runtime lib
10:13:54 <peter1138> X doesn't have to be running...
10:14:12 <lugo> i'm not sure, do you also need X for running a dedicated (-D) instance of a pre-compiled binary?
10:14:21 <Varazir> ok I'm running some other stuff on that
10:14:32 <planetmaker> lugo: yes. installed
10:14:57 <peter1138> It could be fixed by making the video driver a shared object.
10:16:10 <peter1138> Not even sure if that would work seeing as several drivers rely on the same library.
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10:50:41 <FLHerne> So I could use the GUI without X running? Or is that just for dedicated server?
10:51:14 <planetmaker> no X: no GUI running
10:52:23 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Aw. Makes sense, I suppose :-(
10:52:58 <FLHerne> Otherwise I could save a fair bit of CPU time :P
10:55:14 <Alberth> you cannot use it anyway, as the clients need to run in sync with you :p
10:55:57 <FLHerne> True. I'd need to get more laptops out :P
10:56:43 <NGC3982> what happends at year 3000?
10:56:48 <NGC3982> time is no longer counted?
10:57:18 <planetmaker> stonehenge collapses
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11:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the martian calender predicts the end of the world by 3012
11:21:47 <peter1138> So, I decided to take my work back under ground, to stop it from falling into the wrong hands.
11:44:27 <peter1138> The Voodoo who do what you don't dare to people
11:55:31 <NGC3982> i got the chills when i read that
11:55:51 <NGC3982> it have been so many years since i listened to some ass-kicking prodigy.
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13:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i got chills patchpack, does that count? :p
13:13:51 <planetmaker> if you implement an ALU in it, it might
13:14:04 <planetmaker> otherwise it just exists ;-)
13:27:21 <Alberth> chilling with chills patchpack.... sounds good
13:36:37 * Belugas thinks about chilling with a beer (or/and more than one) and a guit by the pool
13:39:36 <Alberth> depends on the weather :)
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14:07:39 <Belugas> today, the weather is spot on, yesterday, it felt like humid europ :)
14:14:18 <telanus> it's way too cold to lounge at the pool
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15:16:16 <NGC3982> magic people voodoo people!
15:23:03 * FLHerne flees from the insane lunatic :P
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15:33:43 <andythenorth> Ammler: how much ram does redmine eat? And is it easy to install?
15:41:06 <Ammler> maybe better calc with 2
15:42:27 <Ammler> there are lots of alternatives, you know...
15:46:35 <andythenorth> Ammler: I know, I like our redmine though
15:46:37 <andythenorth> trying to get off trac
15:46:46 <andythenorth> *too many* alternatives is part of the problem
15:46:51 <andythenorth> something needs to just win
15:47:58 <Rubidium> just use google code ;)
15:48:40 <peter1138> Hmm, so... memory prices...
15:49:05 <Rubidium> my memory is priceless
15:49:30 <peter1138> in the UK, sold on ebay for between £150 and £210
15:49:44 <peter1138> in the uS, sold on ebay from £10
15:50:12 <Rubidium> maybe the US ones fell off a truck?
15:50:21 <peter1138> probably not official cisco parts, but then there's no guarantee the UK stuff is either
15:51:50 <peter1138> crucial don't list this model
15:52:04 <peter1138> and i have tried some standard 1GB memory modules
15:52:08 <peter1138> they fit but don't work
15:52:18 <peter1138> annoyingly, the hardware is pretty much just a PC anyway :S
15:54:16 <peter1138> ASA5500-CF-512MB=Cisco flash memory card - 512 MB - CompactFlashNEW
15:54:21 <peter1138> ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
15:54:43 <Ammler> andythenorth: well, altenrative like github or bitbucket
15:55:15 <Ammler> dedicate the whole sysadmin stuff away ;-)
15:57:24 <Ammler> if you want to host souces, you should also check rhodecode
15:57:33 <Ammler> then you need a tracker, thugh
15:57:51 <andythenorth> it's the tracker that's really sought
15:57:56 <andythenorth> we have existing repos hosted
15:58:00 <andythenorth> and can't get off them easily
16:06:28 <Ammler> converting existing sources to hg (or git) would be worth anyway
16:10:53 <andythenorth> not when your staff don't want to leave svn ;)
16:12:24 <Ammler> you think, they would quit, if forced to use a DVCS?
16:12:50 <andythenorth> forced does't go well
16:13:17 <Ammler> anyway, for svn, redmine is good
16:17:07 <Ammler> how do you auth for the svn?
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17:10:04 <andythenorth> I'm a bit short of time to help him
17:10:17 <andythenorth> but it would be nice if we could between us
17:21:40 <FLHerne> Interesting :-) So a vac-formed aircraft built around a kite-frame like structure?
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17:28:43 <andythenorth> he's lead@inbox on the tt-forums if anyone can help him with English corrections
17:28:58 <andythenorth> (he rendered quite a lot of FISH for me, which is how I know him)
17:35:31 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "I'm considering converting most of HEQS to be rail vehicles instead of road" Really? :o
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17:36:26 <andythenorth> really considering it
17:37:11 <andythenorth> if we can get a 'proceed on clear sight ahead' modification to the train pathfinder, it should work really well
17:37:20 <andythenorth> and modifying the pathfinder has been done loads
17:37:28 <andythenorth> and is far more likely I think than roadtypes
17:37:45 <andythenorth> having to signal roads would be boring :P
17:37:46 <FLHerne> Breaks Nutracks compatibility, more random railtypes, lack of common sense :-(
17:38:03 <FLHerne> Just get someone (r) to do roadtypes :P
17:38:10 <andythenorth> how does it breaks Nutracks? :o
17:39:14 <FLHerne> Defines too many railtypes already, depending on completeness of trainset
17:39:27 <andythenorth> ach, it's too big then :)
17:40:18 <FLHerne> But five different speed limits and three electrification types... :P
17:40:25 <andythenorth> I'm not going to reject a good idea because of what one other grf does :)
17:40:36 <andythenorth> railtypes makes a lot more sense for most of HEQS
17:40:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It isn't a good idea :P
17:41:15 <andythenorth> it will provide more variety in road transport
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17:42:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Presumably the trams stay as trams...?
17:42:37 <andythenorth> trams make no sense as trains
17:42:53 <andythenorth> I am thinking of converting the mining trucks and other large vehicles
17:43:06 <andythenorth> they shouldn't travel on normal roads anyway
17:44:05 <andythenorth> maybe not the small ones
17:44:47 <FLHerne> Not so bothered about the trucks (never use them anyway :P), but I'd have to drop the crawlers :-(
17:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with "drive on sight", how do you solve opposing-vehicle-directions issue?
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24412 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt english_US.txt finnish.txt korean.txt russian.txt):
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: dutch - 6 changes by habell
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: english_US - 6 changes by Rubidium
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: finnish - 6 changes by jpx_
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 45 changes by telk5093
17:45:59 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:46:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: one way tracks?
17:46:13 * FLHerne votes 'no' (despite not being a vote)
17:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bad.
17:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: e.g. terminus stations have two-way sections
17:47:15 <andythenorth> shall I just code it, and we'll figure out the pathfinders / signals later?
17:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm pretty sure i have a -1 on the railtypes idea...
17:48:29 <FLHerne> Just do it as RVs, and figure out roadtypes later :P
17:49:23 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they are RVs, and roadtypes is a -1
17:49:42 <Zahl> does anyone know what exactly makes towns shrink? i tried increasing TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS to make them grow slower, but now they shrink when you deliver goods or passengers
17:50:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Leave it as RVs then, and code some nice ships or something :P
17:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Zahl: every house has a "lifetime", at the end of that lifetime it dies
17:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Zahl: so you have to increase the lifetime (some daylength patches did that)
17:52:05 * andythenorth doesn't see the issue
17:52:12 <andythenorth> roadtypes aren't available
17:52:19 <andythenorth> conclusion: use railtypes
17:52:47 <FLHerne> No, problem nastily tangled :-(
17:52:50 <andythenorth> use what we have instead of dreaming of something that we'll never have
17:53:36 <FLHerne> If you did that for every desired feature, surely the entire game would be one huge bodge? :P
17:54:07 <andythenorth> entropy and code travel together
17:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: hacks like that tend to haunt you forever...
17:55:30 <andythenorth> yes, but ultimately you die, and they go away
17:55:50 <andythenorth> it's done no harm to PHP, wordpress, drupal...
17:56:21 <andythenorth> nor, apparently, Dwarf Fortress
17:56:27 <andythenorth> nor, for that matter, newgrf station spec
17:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf station spec is horrible, and a blocker for many important features. the least of which nml support...
18:09:10 <andythenorth> "HEQS as trains" is not a spec though
18:09:22 <andythenorth> it doesn't do much in the way of breaking other things in future
18:09:28 <andythenorth> it's just a quirk
18:10:37 <Alberth> they just break the "useless" part of useless tracks :p
18:11:27 <andythenorth> the cable cars grf is completely inappropriate for trains, but nobody said that the sky was falling when he released it
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18:13:05 <Alberth> I don't know what to think of HEQS trains, mostly because I don't use rv very often
18:14:11 <andythenorth> mostly I think "I can make the trucks bigger" :P
18:14:24 <andythenorth> which is probably untrue
18:14:32 <andythenorth> can I ban tunnels?
18:15:57 <Alberth> you also need some station tiles that don't look like station tiles
18:16:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: main problem are those tracksets which want to use all 16 track types just for using them
18:16:42 <frosch123> we should tracktypes to 8 per grf :p
18:16:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: stations are an interesting point
18:16:59 * andythenorth considers specialist stations for unloading trucks
18:18:11 <andythenorth> also bridges might need thought
18:42:09 <NGC3982> im unabled to find references to pax delivers to oil rigs, should increase oil production
18:42:13 <NGC3982> so i guess it doesnt?
18:42:49 <planetmaker> I think it doesn't
18:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it does
18:44:02 <andythenorth> transported cargo increases production
18:44:07 <andythenorth> I am 99% guessing
18:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but only that same cargo
18:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the two cargo outputs develop independently
18:45:39 * Rubidium wonders whether George has coded his GRFs to behave that way
18:45:41 <NGC3982> and pulling pax of oil rigs, should have the same (non-existant) effekt then, i guess.
18:46:29 <Rubidium> but for the standard game there's no influence of passenger transport on cargo production
18:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there "soylent green steel"? :p
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18:55:11 <NGC3982> soylent industry chain.
19:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with each other?
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19:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what about holidays?
19:05:20 <frosch123> yeah, just wanted to say that
19:05:29 <frosch123> it's allowed on holidays which are no sundays
19:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> this is in switzerland, btw.
19:06:30 <frosch123> maybe they do not consider saturdays workdays over there?
19:10:30 <Rubidium> most track work is done on saturdays and sundays, so those are obviously working days
19:10:49 <Rubidium> on the other days the train drivers are working, so simply every day is a working day
19:11:09 <Rubidium> and if the day doesn't work out, isn't that the day you wander on tracks trying to catch a train?
19:11:20 <Alberth> no trains in the weekend?
19:14:09 <Rubidium> then there's also the question when a day starts/ends ;)
19:15:04 <Rubidium> e.g. ProRail at least has days that run from 07:00 until 06:59
19:24:18 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24413 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Add [FS#5221-ish]: Allow overbuilding bridges with the same type when adding a roadtype.
19:25:01 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24414 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5221]: Disallow removing roadtypes from bridges when not dragging in bridge direction.
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19:30:59 * NGC3982 didnt notice the new accepted changes in longivety factor for the drak equation.
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20:49:55 <LordAro> apparently i was wrong :L
20:51:21 <frosch123> i have no idea how he made a relation from there to roadtypes :)
20:58:46 <FLHerne> Why not allow building the extra type from anywhere on the tile, rather than restricting the ability to remove it?
20:59:10 <FLHerne> Surely there can only be one bridgehead on that tile anyway?
20:59:59 <frosch123> the difference is when dragging road
21:05:29 <LordAro> frosch123: looking back at the ticket, i have no idea how i made that relation either :L
21:09:45 <FLHerne> frosch123: What happens differently when you drag road? :P
21:10:33 <frosch123> when dragging road it build from where you started dragging until it fails
21:10:49 <frosch123> it should stop at bridges, and not continue under them
21:11:13 <frosch123> esp. when dragging from under the bridge
21:12:23 <FLHerne> Oh, I see. So it succeeds on the first half (and builds over the bridge) but then fails intentionally on the second half of the tile?
21:13:23 <frosch123> somewhat like that, but only if you actually drag till the first half
21:13:53 <frosch123> ofc you can try to further improve it :)
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