IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-16
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06:39:08 <dihedral> good morning Terkhen
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07:57:49 <__ln__> good dihedral, morning
08:12:55 <dihedral> that was worth the effort, wasn't it __ln__ ?
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08:37:18 <Terkhen> I wonder if they think that IRC users do nothing besides checking the channel every 10 seconds
08:44:55 <Alberth> depends on the channel :) #python with 700+ users, someone is bound to react soon :)
08:46:16 <Alberth> imho equally possible is that they don't understand IRC, and are just trying it, and it does not speak back within a 'reasonable' time :)
08:47:01 <Alberth> just like "he, what does this button do? .... oh, nothing"
08:49:48 <telanus> I see there isn't a nightly build since friday
08:51:31 <Alberth> since friday already? :o
08:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody uses nightlies :p
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09:05:52 <Alberth> just build it yourself :)
09:16:09 <dihedral> and then again, nobody uses nightlies :-P
09:16:50 <telanus> is it compilable with VS 2010 Express?
09:18:47 <Alberth> planetmaker: do you know the state of coding the sprites in zbase?
09:19:06 <planetmaker> as far as I've seen the coding state is 0%
09:19:36 <Alberth> oke, that sounds like there is work to do yet :)
09:19:45 <telanus> what tools do I need extra? only openttd-useful?
09:20:02 <planetmaker> and to answer your question yesterday(?): I'm definitely interested in helping. IMHO one one could either start by merging OpenGFX or by copying the relevant parts (just sprites + pnml + build) and then add via alternative sprites the new ones
09:20:03 <Alberth> a checkout of openttd
09:22:02 <Alberth> right, I don't understand some parts of that, but it sounds like a fun experiment to do :)
09:22:17 <Alberth> let's start with a checkout of both repos :)
09:23:39 <planetmaker> Alberth: what - IMHO - basically can be done: take OpenGFX. It's all in NML. Ignore it being build from scratch (e.g. don't create pngs from gimp sources)
09:23:53 <planetmaker> And then just adding the alternative_sprites block to the appropriate places
09:24:25 <planetmaker> I linked an (the only) example in the zbase thread where I already did that in OpenGFX itself for the large explosion
09:24:38 <planetmaker> that "just" needs doing hundret of times
09:24:50 <Alberth> something in that direction sounds like a plan :)
09:26:13 <planetmaker> it's IMHO also (much) easier than a newgrf approach. As it needs not the newgrf overhead
09:26:23 <planetmaker> and the required 8bpp are already coded
09:26:34 <planetmaker> and you see all progress immediately so to speak
09:26:54 * Alberth is not running 32bpp afaik :)
09:27:10 <Alberth> ie another thing to do :)
09:27:13 <planetmaker> but that's actually an easy thing to change :-P
09:28:13 <Alberth> devzone doesn't like me :( "abort: stream ended unexpectedly (got 53678 bytes, expected 59828)"
09:28:39 <planetmaker> which repo, Alberth?
09:29:00 <planetmaker> hm. give me your ssh key. It's a http issue
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09:51:05 * telanus hasstarted a compile. Hope it works
09:56:53 <Terkhen> telanus: there is a MSVC compiling tutorial in the wiki, made by Roujin IIRC
09:57:12 <Terkhen> it should be in his user page
10:00:06 <Terkhen> that one misses the info for not having to specify the openttd useful folders with each new project
10:06:35 <telanus> <Terkhen> telanus: there is a MSVC compiling tutorial in the wiki, made by Roujin IIRC <---------------- can't find this one :(
10:07:21 * Terkhen cant access the wiki now
10:08:32 <planetmaker> and... why don't you follow the VS C++ 2010?
10:08:39 <planetmaker> did you mind the differences to 2008?
10:09:25 <telanus> there isn't a 2010 one on the wiki that I found
10:10:09 <Terkhen> planetmaker: there is no official tutorial
10:10:31 <planetmaker> Terkhen: but the hints wrt 2010 are just below that one. Listing differences to 2008
10:15:20 <planetmaker> sorry, can't help further. I don't use windows
10:18:20 <Terkhen> I can help you when I'm back at home :P
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14:56:51 <kmfx88> Is there a way to have the original building and trees in the latest open TTD?
14:57:50 <planetmaker> yes. I'd like to point you to the readme
14:58:19 <planetmaker> it explains in detail where to put the original grf files
14:58:32 <planetmaker> then select them in the game options dialogue ingame
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15:13:09 * telanus has given up on trying to build OpenTTD here :(
15:26:33 <planetmaker> a clear case of 10s attention span :-)
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15:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mea... oh a butterfly
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15:37:42 <Elukka> it would be sweet if someone made BuildOTTD or something equivalent work for modern versions of the game
15:38:05 <planetmaker> feel invited to do so, Elukka
15:39:36 <Elukka> yes, i know anyone can work on an open source project
15:40:48 <Rubidium> I thought that's the whole problem, there are no sources for it
15:41:02 <Rubidium> or it's built with some language that isn't used by much
15:41:30 <Elukka> all i was saying it'd be nice if there was an utility to easily build openttd with
15:41:41 <Elukka> if i had the skill or inclination or the inclination to learn the skill to do it myself i'd be doing it already
15:41:45 <Elukka> instead of saying it'd be nice :P
15:42:22 <Terkhen> I don't think that the MinGW tutorial is complicates
15:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a case of "we should do X" where it meant "YOU should do X"?
15:42:57 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: well, anybody other than "me", usually
15:43:11 <andythenorth> we should create an "OpenTTD ponies" websiter
15:43:15 <Terkhen> you could make a script for the whole process easily
15:43:36 * Rubidium used to have a 'compile service' that'd build patches against HEAD
15:44:07 <Terkhen> but IMO the tutorial by itself is simple enough
15:45:25 <Terkhen> telanus: did you try it?
15:45:32 <dihedral> Elukka, for 2500 i'll be your bitch for a week and build the service for you :-P
15:45:52 <Terkhen> s/it/the MinGW tutorial/
15:48:41 <telanus> Terkhen: yes tried but seems I couldn't get it to compile :(
15:48:51 <Elukka> it's not like i demanded someone makes this thing for me
15:49:34 <Alberth> why bring it up in the first place?
15:49:58 <Elukka> are suggestions, or even just musing, verboten?
15:50:33 <Alberth> no, but they are so useless
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15:50:42 <NGC3982> best german:ish word in existance.
15:58:36 <Rubidium> dihedral: I hope he doesn't take your offer the wrong way ;)
15:58:59 <dihedral> then there would be a few zeros missing :-P
16:00:26 <Terkhen> telanus: which error did you get?
16:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: if you build it, they will come
16:05:58 <telanus> Terkhen: I get a different one each time
16:06:17 <telanus> Last time, it complained it couldn't dind unicode.h
16:06:29 <Elukka> why is htere a suggestion forum?
16:06:38 <telanus> before it couldn't find some other file
16:10:37 <dihedral> so people have a place to write their stuff and nobody has to care, Elukka
16:10:56 <dihedral> basically keeping the other forums free of crap :-P
16:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that is correct ;)
16:13:00 <Elukka> so the idea is that nobody who isn't a coder on the project can have anything worthwhile to say
16:13:11 <Elukka> i know anyone is free to join the project, but that does sound terribly insular
16:13:51 <FLHerne> Elukka: Nobody who isn't a coder can have anything worthwhile to say unless they become a coder to fulfil their proposal, apparently :P
16:14:32 <planetmaker> Elukka: everyone is free and welcome and invited to bring forward his or her suggestions on improvement of whatever aspect bothers him or her
16:14:45 <planetmaker> For that purpose we DO have the suggestions forum
16:14:57 <planetmaker> Contrary to popular believe it's even read
16:15:36 <planetmaker> But bringing forward a suggestion does NOT imply that anyone knowledgable about the code will immediately jump forward and say "great. I'll have it done tomorrow"
16:16:05 <planetmaker> That won't even happen with ideas which a person agrees with. Good things take time. Sometimes even considerable time
16:17:45 <planetmaker> of course other things go very quick as well. And that heavily depends... on the code internals.
16:17:58 <planetmaker> and the motivation :-P
16:19:38 <Elukka> i think suggestions on a project like this are less of a request of anyone to do something but rather a way to bring up issues the users have
16:20:14 <planetmaker> there's a difference between suggestion and bug...
16:21:00 <planetmaker> I disagree though that compilation of the project is an issue
16:21:52 <Elukka> well, that was in reply to the notion that suggestions are 100% useless in every case and everyone should just shut up if they're not going to do it themselves
16:22:43 * NGC3982 forgot a server running and realizes that a fair amount of inflation builds up in 1200 years.
16:22:48 <Belugas> this is utterly reductive to the real situation. some suggestions have been coded
16:22:51 <Rubidium> making the same suggestion (again) usually is useless
16:22:52 <Belugas> not all, but some did
16:23:36 <planetmaker> NGC3982: discover min_active_clients
16:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: inflation stops after 170 years
16:23:48 * Rubidium wonders how people will like it if that tool were written in labview which requires a 100+ MB runtime ;)
16:23:59 <planetmaker> haha, Rubidium :-)
16:24:05 <planetmaker> let's write it in scada
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16:24:31 <Elukka> for the record i'm agreeing with you here planetmaker :P
16:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a Siemens S300 here, maybe that helps :)
16:24:44 <Rubidium> maybe I should make a qemu mips image that builds windows binaries ;)
16:24:58 <NGC3982> planetmaker: and so, i did! \o/
16:25:08 <planetmaker> Elukka: usually wordings like "...someone could make..." produce results like "make it yourself"
16:25:28 <Elukka> i just said it would be nice if x existed
16:25:44 <Terkhen> telanus1: you probably forgot the etc/fstab step
16:26:08 <planetmaker> you said "...if someone made BuildOTTD or something equivalent..."
16:26:25 <planetmaker> which implies a strong "not me"
16:27:02 <planetmaker> might be nuances, but that's how a "someone" usually comes accross and how "someone" is interpreted
16:27:17 <planetmaker> even when not intended
16:27:29 <planetmaker> (just explaining the response)
16:27:39 <Rubidium> someone should make browser hotkeys configurable
16:27:53 <Rubidium> especially the ones in firefox so I can disable CTRL+Q
16:28:00 <NGC3982> you guys are talking x and browsers
16:28:09 <Rubidium> it's awfully close to W
16:28:13 * NGC3982 drinks more bear-beer.
16:29:23 <planetmaker> as general advise: state what you like see changed. But don't imply that someone else should do it :-)
16:29:41 <planetmaker> (but even then you can get the same response :-P )
16:29:45 <planetmaker> don't take it personal
16:29:56 <Elukka> no, i wouldn't expect devs to do my bidding :P
16:30:03 <planetmaker> and agreed: a "do it yourself" response is not really nice
16:31:38 <NGC3982> is this the same discussion i always fall in when flamewar stops after somebody have used "<random useless feature> would be nice to implement."
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16:33:12 <Coupon12> Does anyone know how to edit the openttd source code in visual studio?
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16:33:39 <NGC3982> Coupon12: there should be support for the files as it is, as far as i know.
16:33:55 <NGC3982> never mind me, i didnt read "source code".
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16:34:22 <Coupon12> I got the openttd-useful-4.2-any
16:34:30 <planetmaker> Coupon12: I suggest: open file(s). Edit at will :-)
16:34:47 <Coupon12> But I have to do the include directories and all that
16:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Coupon12: in the svn you have the .sln files
16:35:02 <Coupon12> ok i'll try and show you the errors
16:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you open the one for your visual studio (8,9 or 10)
16:36:11 <Coupon12> I get all these errors saying:
16:36:51 <Coupon12> error C1083: Cannot open include file: '(some file goes here)': no such file or directory
16:37:37 <Coupon12> I got that, but I don't see any of the include and library folders
16:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> then useful.zip is not in your library path
16:38:21 <Coupon12> oh wait, i must ahv downloaded the wrong one
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16:46:49 <Coupon12> I got the openttd-useful thing fixed
16:46:58 <Coupon12> but now when i try to build i get 6 errors like this
16:47:13 <Coupon12> Error 1 error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "public: static void __fastcall ScriptCargoMonitor::StopAllMonitoring(void)" (?StopAllMonitoring@ScriptCargoMonitor@@SIXXZ) C:\Users\Michael\Documents\junk\openttd svn\projects\game_instance.obj openttd
16:48:38 <Coupon12> It happens at the end of the build
16:48:58 <Alberth> that's when you run a linker indeed :)
16:49:40 <Alberth> a build has two steps
16:50:08 <Alberth> first is compile, translating each c++ file to an object file. That happens for all c++ files
16:50:17 <Coupon12> because i normally use c#, but i'm just using c++ for this one
16:50:28 <Alberth> second is linking, which links all object files together into one executable
16:50:34 <__ln__> you call OpenTTD junk?
16:50:42 <Coupon12> it's just a file i use for random stuff
16:51:18 <glx> sometimes that fixes link errors
16:52:27 <Coupon12> still got the same error
16:52:54 <Coupon12> so where do i get a linker?
16:52:59 <glx> hmm it may be related to a recent commit
16:54:26 <glx> Alberth: I think you forgot something in r24406 :)
16:55:38 <glx> (source.list and generate)
16:56:15 <glx> thanks for the report Coupon12 :)
16:56:44 <glx> the error is in openttd source
16:56:55 <Coupon12> oh i thought you meant report because i broke a rule
16:57:23 <Coupon12> well there are 6 other similar errors too
16:57:54 <Coupon12> Error 2 error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol "public: static unsigned int __fastcall ScriptCargoMonitor::GetIndustryPickupAmount(enum ScriptCompany::CompanyID,unsigned char,unsigned short,bool)" (?GetIndustryPickupAmount@ScriptCargoMonitor@@SIIW4CompanyID@ScriptCompany@@EG_N@Z) C:\Users\Michael\Documents\junk\openttd svn\projects\game_instance.obj opentt
16:58:11 <glx> yes missing files in the project
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16:58:37 <Coupon12> so is it in the configuration properties?
16:58:50 <Coupon12> or i have to get another source?
16:59:01 <Alberth> only generate, it seems :)
16:59:17 <Coupon12> this is my first time doing anything with c++. i use c#
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17:00:14 <Coupon12> i don't even know what generate is
17:01:08 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24408 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Fix (r24406): Forgot to add the new files to the Studio build list.
17:01:53 <Coupon12> well i have other errors too
17:04:51 <Coupon12> oh i didn't update first
17:04:51 <andythenorth> wtf do most newgrfs offer same vehicles in all climates?
17:05:10 <NGC3982> same vehicles - different colors?
17:06:10 <NGC3982> andythenorth: as recalled vagely from the grf tutorial. doesnt most vehicle grf code ignore the map type?
17:06:30 <andythenorth> but why do we do it?
17:06:56 <Alberth> everybody ignores existence of 3 new other climates
17:07:00 <andythenorth> default game offers 4 different gameplay experiences out of the box
17:07:16 <andythenorth> whereas with my grfs, the terrain is completely incidentall
17:07:20 <andythenorth> so it's all very 'meh'
17:07:47 <andythenorth> and the more I convert my grfs to be generated, the more 'meh' they get
17:08:05 <andythenorth> because generated grfs have to fit to a framework of common cases
17:11:47 <NGC3982> Alberth: did you say new?
17:12:38 <Alberth> yep, I did; no idea why tbh
17:14:10 * andythenorth types a lot of things and has no idea why
17:14:16 <andythenorth> it's slightly like having someone else in my head
17:15:37 <NGC3982> Alberth: i thought i missed out on something important. :p
17:16:21 <Alberth> NGC3982: that depends whether you ever played anything else than the temperate climate
17:20:43 * NGC3982 looks at the last star trek the next generation episode for the first time.
17:34:12 <andythenorth> so grf offers all vehicles in all climates
17:34:36 * andythenorth can't think of viable alternatives tbh
17:36:42 <Alberth> (possibly some) different vehicles in different climates? different characteristics?
17:36:58 <Alberth> some climates have no electric tracks
17:37:28 <andythenorth> which mining trucks aren't valid for arctic?
17:38:44 <andythenorth> same issue for ships
17:39:25 <michi_cc> Specialized vehicles that are used globally are used globally, no need to tinker with that. Many other NewGRFs suggest (or even enforce, e.g. DBSet) a specific climate, but still have only a single set of vehicles.
17:39:50 <andythenorth> in default TTD, planes are same in all climates?
17:39:54 <andythenorth> and RVs and ships
17:40:02 * andythenorth is arguing from poor evidence :P
17:40:31 <andythenorth> another idea bites the dust
17:40:35 <andythenorth> only another 99 to go :)
17:40:43 <michi_cc> The historical reasoning is that NewGRFs don't provide different vehicles/stations/whatever per climate, but instead the player is simply supposed to select different NewGRFs for different climates.
17:41:02 <andythenorth> that's maybe how BANDIT would handle it, if I ever get that far
17:42:05 <andythenorth> FIRS is same in all climates
17:42:15 <Alberth> wiki suggests mostly trains are different
17:42:43 <Alberth> FIRS does not fit in toyland imo
17:43:32 <FLHerne> Alberth: Would it not be possible to swap Toyland for something else? :P
17:43:51 <FLHerne> I doubt even 0.5% of games use it :-(
17:44:36 * Alberth likes toyland, very nicely animated industries
17:45:04 <FLHerne> Couldn't they have drawn nicely animated industries of something else?
17:45:25 * FLHerne would find rainforest interesting...
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24409 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt french.txt korean.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by telk5093
17:45:41 <Alberth> already exists, in tropical climate :p
17:45:43 <KenjiE20> because that's not in subtropic at all
17:46:04 <NGC3982> the word subtropic makes me giggle
17:46:11 <NGC3982> since it reminds me of Tropico.
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17:50:51 <telanus> Cool: r24408 made openttd compile here
17:50:52 *** telanus is now known as telanus1
17:50:59 *** telanus1 is now known as telanus
17:51:07 <FLHerne> Alberth: That's even more painful on the eyes, even :o
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17:53:51 <andythenorth> toyland should look like zool!
17:54:11 <Alberth> telanus: now you are one of the few with the new cargo monitoring functionality :)
17:54:28 <andythenorth> we should get him to do us a new sound track
17:55:27 <andythenorth> can we make a GPL version of Lotus?
17:55:46 * NGC3982 loves the anti time paradox.
17:56:37 <andythenorth> graphics look straightforward :P
17:57:00 <Rubidium> is there a remake of Stunts?
17:57:16 <andythenorth> was that similar to Stunt Racer 2000?
17:57:24 <andythenorth> or Stunt Car Racer?
17:57:46 <andythenorth> oh I remember stunts
17:57:50 <andythenorth> you could drive anywhere on the landscape
17:58:01 <andythenorth> it was crappy performance on my friend's Amiga
17:58:32 <LordAro> re recent commit: bad Alberth, forgot to run the script yesterday :P
17:58:32 <szaman> my boss played stunts last week in his office
17:58:51 <andythenorth> Stunt Racer 2000 was epic, it combined Stunts and Stunt Car Racer
17:58:59 <andythenorth> but it was Acorn RISC OS only
17:59:03 <andythenorth> so most of you never saw it :P
17:59:20 <Alberth> LordAro: I didn't add that file yesterday :p
18:00:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: I did have a riscos machine, but not many games
18:00:54 <andythenorth> Stunt Racer 2000 was epic, and Chocks Away
18:00:59 <andythenorth> most other games were so-so or lame :P
18:01:01 <frosch123> Rubidium: trackmania is the modern stunts
18:01:12 <andythenorth> I ended up writing animations using basic
18:01:25 <andythenorth> prefiguring my entire later life :P
18:01:37 <LordAro> trackmania is awesome :)
18:01:51 * LordAro is random comments guy today
18:01:58 <andythenorth> I saw some space game being played today
18:02:04 <andythenorth> you assemble rockets and launch them
18:03:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: :o I know Chocks Away, LOTS of fun!
18:03:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: could we recreate it?
18:03:59 <andythenorth> an 8mhz, 2MB RISC OS device....
18:04:16 <andythenorth> so I guess we could probably get acceptable performance on a modern laptop?
18:04:17 <Alberth> I sold mine a long time ago :p
18:04:32 <andythenorth> Open Chocks Away!
18:04:41 <Alberth> I don't see why that would not be possible
18:04:47 <andythenorth> how hard can it be?
18:04:59 <andythenorth> it did draw actual 3D vector graphics iirc
18:05:13 <andythenorth> they were small teams
18:05:14 <LordAro> kerbal space program also looks awesome
18:05:33 <andythenorth> 4th Dimension was only a few guys, and they also did e-type, stunt racer 2000, and that space thing
18:06:48 <Coupon12> the openttd thing is missing files
18:06:55 <Coupon12> ol' what was it called
18:09:19 <Coupon12> I can never get spaceplanes to take off
18:10:19 <Coupon12> They always fall off the side of the runway and crash
18:11:18 <Coupon12> oh i thought you were talking about kerbal space program again
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18:12:07 <frosch123> but i only remember 3 digit numbers
18:12:30 <NGC3982> andythenorth: "bwrrrrrrr"
18:12:52 <andythenorth> hmm maybe we track down Andrew Hutchings?
18:12:56 <andythenorth> who was the author
18:13:07 <andythenorth> my friend is called Andrew Hutchings, I doubt they are the same person :P
18:14:19 <Coupon12> does anyone know of a program that can decompile assembly to c++ or c#
18:17:04 <andythenorth> who else had RISC OS?
18:17:13 <andythenorth> Born_Acorn probably I guess
18:17:18 <andythenorth> I think peter1138 did too
18:17:42 <Coupon12> trying to build the openttd source code
18:18:26 <Coupon12> is it possible to run openttd from visual studio?
18:19:16 <Coupon12> Because when i try, this dialog comes up saying it requires graphics
18:20:16 <Alberth> Coupon12: yep, you need to install some data files too, read the readme file
18:20:43 <Coupon12> I have them installed with the regular openttd
18:20:48 <Coupon12> this is from visual studio
18:21:19 <Alberth> then they are not installed so they can be shared, I guess
18:22:04 <Alberth> Coupon12: note that "decompile" normally goes from high-level languages (C/C++ etc) to low-level languages (eg assembly language)
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18:22:57 <telanus> Is there a way to make firs build Fishing harbours at the coast (on the edge of the map) and not in a small pond (in the middle of the map?
18:27:48 <Coupon12> ugh, when i try to download opengfx i get the yellow screen of death
18:28:26 * andythenorth ponders removing fishing harbour
18:29:09 <Coupon12> how do you download bundles?
18:29:32 <Hirundo> andythenorth: just deliver fish directly to shops in towns?
18:29:54 <andythenorth> I don't like including things that are irrevocably broken
18:30:00 <andythenorth> fishing harbour is such a thing
18:33:35 <Coupon12> alright, where do i put the opengfx files
18:42:18 <telanus> Andythenorth, what about fishing markets in towns?
18:43:20 <andythenorth> the harbours have to go I think
18:43:36 * andythenorth ponders deleting the fishing chain entirely
18:43:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Nooo! :-(
18:44:14 <FLHerne> Provides a real use for small boats
18:44:25 <FLHerne> And no, it's still too small :P
18:45:20 <FLHerne> It needs fish markets and non-town-attached fish processing plants, then fishing chain will work better
18:45:38 <andythenorth> that's more stuff, not less
18:45:42 <andythenorth> less stuff is the goal
18:46:02 <FLHerne> More stuff [i]should[/i] be the goal :-)
18:46:13 <FLHerne> More stuff is good :D
18:46:54 <FLHerne> Would it be possible to give fishing harbours integrated docks? They are [i]harbours[/i]...
18:48:12 <frosch123> industries are neutral
18:48:22 <frosch123> you cannot combine them with company owned stations
18:48:33 <FLHerne> Can only water-surrounded things have docks, then? Or only primary industries?
18:48:50 <FLHerne> Why can't they have neutral stations, anyway?
18:48:52 <andythenorth> the water industries have a dock because there is no alternative
18:49:03 <andythenorth> neutral stations are considered highly undesirable for gameplay
18:49:08 <andythenorth> I don't know the issue, I never play in MP
18:49:12 <andythenorth> but it was a flat 'no'
18:49:40 <andythenorth> also, they gain helicopter pads with the station
18:49:43 <FLHerne> I think they mess up the transfers because you can use them to swap cargo between companies :-(
18:49:49 <andythenorth> helipad causes bug reports
18:50:01 <FLHerne> Can it detect SP v MP?
18:51:25 <FLHerne> Have a parameter then :P (default off maybe). It seems silly to have to build a dock to serve a harbour :P
18:52:45 <andythenorth> parameters = string
18:52:50 <andythenorth> string = buggy grf
18:53:17 <FLHerne> How does that follow?
18:53:21 <andythenorth> i.e. big ball of string running through the grf = bad
18:53:28 <andythenorth> don't tie everything up in string
18:53:52 <andythenorth> clean interface, not 'if x then z, but not on tuesdays'
18:54:31 <andythenorth> basically fishing harbours are a stupid idea
18:54:58 <FLHerne> Possibly, in that case. Have fish markets in towns, instead? :P
18:55:14 <andythenorth> will mean always having to transfer
18:55:25 <andythenorth> unless they end up on the coast
18:55:51 <FLHerne> And the problem with transfers is...?
18:56:35 <andythenorth> boring to set up
18:57:07 <andythenorth> although....it's not any worse than current fishing harbour situation
18:57:10 <FLHerne> And the problem with clicks is...? :P
18:57:30 <andythenorth> the current fishing harbour placement often needs transfers anyway :P
18:58:26 <FLHerne> No, the way OTTD generates water is broken :-(
18:59:16 <andythenorth> I'm not sure that FIRS fishing ground code survived the nml migration
18:59:29 <andythenorth> I made harbours locate quite close to fishing grounds
18:59:47 <andythenorth> it's very annoying when the only harbour is on the other side of the map to the fishing grounds
18:59:49 <FLHerne> It makes no sense, there should be far more contiguous stuff, with lakes higher than sea level, rivers actually following catchment areas, etc :P
18:59:51 <andythenorth> that code is missing in action
19:00:19 * andythenorth wonders if other similar co-location code is MIA
19:00:23 <andythenorth> the clustering is broken too
19:00:32 <FLHerne> Not to mention downhill rivers from lakes to the sea, which just don't exist :-(
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19:48:31 <NGC3982> meanwhile, in germany.
19:58:59 <Chris_Booth> take is someone doesn't like loud David Guetta
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20:12:58 <Wolf01> gah, I hate the Steam sales... Steam is already like a drug, when they start the sales it's an overdose!
20:13:29 <Wolf01> (but my bank balance doesn't think the same)
20:16:56 <Terkhen> that's why they add so many free games and sell their own games dirt cheap to get you into it
20:18:03 <Wolf01> when I started to use it there weren't free games :P
20:18:23 <Wolf01> if not some rare cases
20:23:23 <Wolf01> from the screenshots it looks promising
20:23:46 <Terkhen> yes, when I started there weren't many either
20:23:55 <Terkhen> but at some point they even made TF2 free :P
20:24:18 <Wolf01> but I'm a n00b at these games, I didn't manage to run a Sim City 4 city for more than 5 years
20:25:13 <__ln__> the screenshots do not really show anything about what's the gameplay like
20:26:02 <Wolf01> I've seen some videos when it was announced, but I don't remember it well
20:32:08 <Sacro> __ln__: it's not amazing
20:32:13 <Sacro> SC4 with mods is better
20:41:23 <__ln__> Wolf01: what's cheap (no more than 5€) and good?
20:42:51 <Wolf01> trine, fable, but you must like the genres
20:43:24 <Wolf01> assassin's creed (the first one) if you don't have it already
20:43:47 <Wolf01> oh there is assassi'ns creed 2 too
20:46:02 <__ln__> i guess i could pick one or two and try; i don't tend to play much so i'm a bit unfamiliar with games of the 2000's :)
20:46:37 <Wolf01> then lurk on the star wars franchise pack
20:47:23 <Wolf01> I purchased it this xmas, all the dark forces saga
20:48:07 <Wolf01> and the jedi knights too
20:52:36 <__ln__> i have some something-jedi for ps3, but since i forgot its name i probably haven't played it in a while
20:53:47 <Wolf01> the force unleashed maybe
20:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: "10 year old game with mods" is always better than "brand new game rushed to a release"
20:55:50 <Wolf01> you have a spectacular example: the game which names this channel :P
20:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> also Civ4 with mods is "better" than Civ5
20:57:09 <Eddi|zuHause> look at the balance fixes they did in the first few months... it's fairly obvious that it was rushed
20:57:22 * Terkhen did not like Civ5 at all
20:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> actually i do like Civ5. the gameplay is significantly different from Civ4, and thus interesting.
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20:59:41 <telanus> I've got Civ chronicles
21:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that even is
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21:05:59 <Coupon12> what part of the source code is for the trains and their stats?
21:06:27 <Alberth> they are coded in NewGRFs
21:06:35 <Coupon12> then how do i change that
21:07:37 <Coupon12> i mean the newgrf that has the code for the starting trains
21:08:58 <Alberth> you can override almost anything from existing vehicles
21:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea if he got what he actually wanted
21:20:40 <Supercheese> Too bad about .jpg, though ;)
21:21:16 * Supercheese wonders when .jpg will cease to be the standard image filetype
21:22:40 <Wolf01> and if you use 100% quality it's really good ;)
21:26:06 <Supercheese> The average user is completely unaware that there even is a quality option for .jpgs
21:27:09 <FLHerne> Good for squeezing onto floopies, though :-)
21:28:11 <Supercheese> I don't think I even have any device currently running with a floppy drive
21:28:39 <Supercheese> some old computers in boxes, but that's about it
21:28:51 <FLHerne> Wolf01: I have twice that number of floppies, but no MicroSD cards or card readers :P
21:29:05 <FLHerne> USB thumb drives are nice, though
21:29:58 <FLHerne> Made my floppies obsolete except for things without USB drives :-)
21:30:22 <frosch123> internet everywhere made any kind of mobile media obsolete
21:30:59 <FLHerne> Only if your device has wifi/Ethernet/Bluetooth, though :P
21:31:16 <Prof_Frink> frosch123: The object sat next to me would disagree.
21:31:39 <Supercheese> And even on devices with mobile internet, [Micro]SD is very useful for local storage, like for phones with limited internal memory
21:32:26 <FLHerne> Tried internet over infra-red? Don't. It doesn't work :P
21:32:38 <Prof_Frink> A couple of hundred gig of daily backups would not fit down the intertubes in an acceptable amount of time.
21:32:40 <frosch123> if you never remove the storage from the device, then it's not mobile storage, is it?
21:33:05 <Supercheese> I remove it all the time to transfer stuff between PC and device, but perhaps that's just me
21:33:06 <frosch123> at least i wouldn't call a harddisk mobile, even if it is inside a notebook
21:33:40 <frosch123> maybe, removable media is the more correct term :)
21:34:45 <Prof_Frink> Not a harddisk, and definitely removable.
21:35:58 <frosch123> well, maybe we can at least agree on the fakt, that dvd burners are useless except for stealing movies
21:36:15 <frosch123> and even for that the usage is questionable
21:36:33 <FLHerne> frosch123: Burning install disks
21:36:50 <Supercheese> I can't remember the last time I used optical media on a PC outside of burning music CDs to play in my car
21:37:03 <Supercheese> Oh, wait, it was to make a recovery CD for me OS
21:37:11 <FLHerne> And transferring files that don't fit onto a floppy to transfer to non-networkable devices
21:37:23 <frosch123> yeah, minimal boot cds :)
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21:38:00 <FLHerne> And when you want to copy .openttd to another computer and lost your thumb drive :P
21:40:11 <frosch123> what's the use of openttd without repository access?
21:41:14 <FLHerne> My laptop has CD-installed Debian, but no Ethernet :P
21:41:16 <frosch123> hmm, i'll sleep over that :p
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