IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-15
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00:13:53 <V453000> hm, why could I be getting bananas error "A pack can contain only one license file." with this file? :o
00:13:53 <V453000> A pack can contain only one license file.
00:14:06 <V453000> there is just one license file
00:14:11 <V453000> just like in all other previous versions
00:14:17 <V453000> does anyone know what to do with that please?
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00:18:34 <FLHerne> It segfaults when deleting hidden (codefolded) lines :-(
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06:43:28 <planetmaker> V453000: have you selected any other than 'custom' license?
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07:38:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
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07:57:12 <planetmaker> moin Alberth, LordAro
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08:05:34 <planetmaker> salut andythenorth
08:20:19 * Alberth ponders cargo monitoring
08:20:43 <andythenorth> sounds interesting
08:23:24 <Alberth> monitoring of cargo pickup & delivery by a company for game scripts :)
08:24:07 <andythenorth> how fine grained (i.e. where would you monitor?)
08:24:19 <andythenorth> per station? per accepting / producing tile?
08:24:31 <Alberth> same as subsidies basically
08:26:46 <Alberth> in particular pax is very hard to get to deliver to the 'right' place
08:29:01 <andythenorth> Alberth: you need a cargo routing algorithm :)
08:29:30 <Alberth> nope, I just monitor where you bring it :)
08:29:52 * andythenorth watches Alberth duck the routing idea :P
08:29:59 <andythenorth> maybe someone else would do it
08:30:51 <Alberth> it's an intriguing problem, and I do want to have a go at it some day, but not in the near future
08:31:17 <Alberth> I feel cargo sources and destinations is not the right approach
08:31:31 <Alberth> the trouble is now, what is? :)
08:33:49 <Alberth> The steps in-between don't care where cargo comes from or goes to, ie they are generic transport services. Yet we push a source/target onto them, which makes the problem explode, as there are many sources/target combinations
08:34:33 <Alberth> Ie I want flow without the combinatorial explosion in cpu time
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08:49:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: 'flow' is also what I seek
08:50:40 <andythenorth> my ideas for approximating 'downhill' are based on looking only at next step
08:51:00 <andythenorth> if I knew more about vector maths, it could be done that way
08:51:26 <andythenorth> cargo should take any available vector that is 'towards' the destination
08:51:32 * andythenorth goes back to ships
08:51:42 <andythenorth> water in rivers doesn't need to know where it's going
08:51:48 <andythenorth> it just goes down gradient
08:51:59 <andythenorth> voltage doesn't know where it's 'going'
08:52:10 <andythenorth> it just goes down the difference gradient
08:53:13 <telanus> quick question: what is a viewport?
08:53:35 <telanus> busy translating and not sure what is meant
08:53:53 <Zuu> there are two types of them. There is the one at the back of your screen that show the landscape
08:54:03 <Zuu> There is also the extra viewports that open up in a window
08:55:39 <telanus> might be the landskape one. translating this: The maximum zoom-in level for viewports ...........
08:59:20 <Alberth> all viewports display part of the landscape :)
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09:05:20 <Alberth> andy, local checking only has no idea of where it is going.
09:05:41 <Alberth> which makes it miss "destinations" :)
09:09:21 <andythenorth> it's on a specific 'gradient'
09:09:36 <andythenorth> the gradient is towards a specific destination
09:10:15 <andythenorth> still requires a path-solving routine to run at [some frequency] to cache the gradient
09:10:22 <Alberth> flow is destination specific ? that explodes, doesn't it?
09:10:30 <andythenorth> vehicles seem to route ok
09:10:33 <andythenorth> without exploding
09:10:52 <Alberth> until you hit the CPU ceiling :)
09:10:58 <andythenorth> you end up with a gradient for every cargo-destination pair
09:11:05 <Alberth> and there are a lot more cargo packets :)
09:11:06 <andythenorth> but you can discard the source
09:11:44 <andythenorth> migrating ship stats accurately to nml is tedious :P
09:12:20 <Alberth> ie what is nml missing?
09:14:19 <andythenorth> an assistant for me
09:14:43 <andythenorth> I have three sources as well: tracking table, nfo, and I have to check the old grf in game for some stats
09:14:59 <andythenorth> new nml package: nml.assistant
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09:27:27 <andythenorth> not being able to set costs directly
09:27:34 <andythenorth> needs some thought
09:28:21 <andythenorth> I need to know the most expensive ship in the set, so I can find the scale for 0-255 cost factor :P
09:28:30 <andythenorth> but the most expensive ship might not be added yet :P
09:29:22 <Alberth> sounds like a sucky design to me :p
09:30:54 <andythenorth> kind of necessary
09:31:08 <andythenorth> so you can have variable base costs I guess
09:32:52 * Alberth very much believes computers are much better in administrative tasks
09:34:27 <andythenorth> btw, the nml missing-string patch was essential :)
09:34:34 <andythenorth> using the errors a lot right now
09:35:38 <andythenorth> that's what I meant ;)
09:36:33 <Alberth> any tool not given sane feedback to its users does not deserve to be used imho
09:37:19 <Alberth> unfortunately, many users accept it without even reporting it as bug
09:47:10 <NGC3982> too bad it hit the trailer, and not the truck.
09:47:15 <andythenorth> in soviet russia...
09:47:32 <NGC3982> did the driver survive?
09:48:16 <NGC3982> .."He probably escape to engine section - normal procedure in danger."
09:53:14 * andythenorth wonders what nml is doing with ship running costs
09:53:37 <andythenorth> I get an exciting $492/yr no matter which values I try for the action 0 prop
09:54:10 <andythenorth> I haven't adjusted any base cost yet
09:57:32 <andythenorth> local bug I think
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11:33:24 <andythenorth> so my FISH buy menu is pretty crappy
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11:34:54 <andythenorth> fixing it is a simple matter of setting x, y values in the config file (plain text)
11:38:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> Andy i didtn ahve that issue before, what did you change lol
11:42:08 <andythenorth> removed use of setx which is unofficially deprecated
11:42:29 <andythenorth> and should be deprecated, but cowardice prevents that :P
11:44:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant you use the old x-y offsets though?
11:44:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka copy-paste into new format
11:45:45 <andythenorth> no, the space in the menu is narrower
11:45:45 <planetmaker> lol :-) andythenorth
11:46:22 <andythenorth> setx is not allowed to be implemented in nml, because it's unwanted, despite being in spec
11:46:27 <planetmaker> The cut-away-the-cobs attitude sometimes is really refreshing :-)
11:46:34 <andythenorth> but nobody wants to change spec because newgrf authors will whine
11:46:47 <andythenorth> so we have the odd situation where nml *refuses* to support the newgrf spec
11:47:16 <planetmaker> it's by far not the only point where NML does not support every contingency
11:47:27 <planetmaker> For the same or similar reasons
11:47:57 <planetmaker> But maybe, it should be announced that a thing like XYZ will be deprecated in the upcoming major release or so
11:48:32 <planetmaker> Like "you got 9 months to fix it"
11:48:50 <andythenorth> just knock it out of next newgrf spec major version?
11:48:57 <andythenorth> what's next? v9?
11:50:28 <planetmaker> for a v9 it needs imho more changes. Like grf v8 also accumulated. Actually over years
11:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the buy menu needs a configurable width by misc parameter, similar to the depot offset.
11:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum over all GRFs is taken
11:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (per vehicle type)
12:06:51 <NGC3982> how is current data saved in the game, as i progresses? for instance, in case one would wish to parse current economy statistics to a third party software.
12:10:20 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the savegame format is a compressed RIFF format, each chunk has a handler in src/saveload/*.cpp
12:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the explicit format of the data differs from chunk to chunk
12:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: if you don't want to mess with the compression, you can write in your .cfg that you want to make uncompressed savegames
12:20:12 <planetmaker> and: the actual format of each chunk may change between revs without notice.
12:20:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think the buy menu sprite should be fixed to current size
12:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree.
12:21:18 <andythenorth> when grfs use different sizes, the ragged edge is horrible
12:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some flexibility is needed
12:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: especially with road vehicles (without road-wagons)
12:21:51 <andythenorth> so what do you need that setx doesn't provide?
12:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's the point of the "width" parameter, if you take the maximum over all grfs, there is no ragged edge
12:23:37 <andythenorth> some sprites will be floating a long way from their name string though
12:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> whether there should be a maximum is a different discussion
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12:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and the sprites could be right-aligned
12:24:57 <andythenorth> I don't fancy handling bug reports due to the behaviour of other grfs
12:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that won't help with rtl-languages)
12:25:27 <andythenorth> sprites are centred in the buy menu
12:25:35 <andythenorth> are / should be according to the game style /s
12:25:45 <andythenorth> some grfs do it wrong and left-align
12:26:08 * andythenorth is feeling didactic, but is prepared to lose that point :P
12:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS sprites are left aligned without any special handling. the default vehicles all have the same length
12:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> (double headed vehicles are "magic")
12:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but some of the longer wagons overlap with the text
12:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no "sane" solution for that currently
12:29:18 <andythenorth> the larger ships - there's no useful crop for them to current buy menu sprite size
12:29:29 <andythenorth> e.g. Shannon Freighter
12:39:35 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i think i understand. tho, a chunk seems to represent several actions and changes (and cant thus be usdd to collect real time changes?)
12:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no. a chunk groups the information by type (i.e. all industries are gathered in one chunk, all trains in another chunk, etc.)
12:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: savegames are not "realtime" and you cannot construct the history out of them
12:42:03 <NGC3982> im getting my head around parsing data in our business systems, and making a third party client that connects to a server and collect economy statistics looked like a fun thing to start with.
12:45:40 <andythenorth> so any bright ideas for fixing FISH buy menu? :P
12:46:17 <NGC3982> perfect. exactly what i was looking for.
12:47:03 <NGC3982> we play a lot of ttd amongst the supervisors, and i want to integrate server data in our business system.
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12:53:23 <FLHerne> How does CC recolouring work with objects in NML?
12:53:39 * FLHerne fails to understand the documentation again
13:00:37 <Hirundo> FLHerne: I assume you use the 'colour' callback, what do you not understand about that?
13:01:25 <FLHerne> How to use it for stuff :P New to NML...
13:02:26 <Hirundo> FLHerne: what are you trying to achieve?
13:02:38 <FLHerne> There's stuff about colour translation pallettes, and recolour sprites, and various other stuff, and I'm not quite understanding how it all fits together :P
13:03:06 <FLHerne> Just trying to get cc bits on objects to match the company colour, nothing fancy :-(
13:05:55 <Hirundo> you should set recolour_mode to RECOLOUR_REMAP and palette to PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT in the sptirelayout sprites you want recoloured
13:06:38 <Hirundo> RECOLOUR_REMAP enables recolouring for the sprite
13:06:59 <Hirundo> PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT tells OpenTTD to use the default recolour sprite, which for objects is 1 CC
13:07:00 <FLHerne> Got confused by looking at stuff I didn't need to know about :P
13:07:12 <Hirundo> (or if enabled by the respective flag, 2 CC)
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13:15:46 * andythenorth ponders autorefits
13:16:44 <andythenorth> vehicle ferries: refit anything
13:17:24 <andythenorth> freight ships: autorefit if same class?
13:17:33 <andythenorth> makes no sense for lots of cargos, but meh :P
13:20:29 <andythenorth> e.g. scrap metal would be autorefittable to sugar beet
13:20:47 <andythenorth> clay would be autorefittable to wheat
13:21:27 <andythenorth> oil autorefittable to milk :P
13:21:38 <andythenorth> should I do label based checks?
13:22:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: just please make auto-refitting symmetrical
13:22:56 <frosch123> else the gameplay will be horrible
13:23:01 <andythenorth> in which respect?
13:23:01 <FLHerne> I was going to say that :P
13:23:18 <frosch123> don't allow refitting from sugar beet to scrap metal, if the reverse is not allowed
13:23:32 <frosch123> else a mixed line will end up with only scrap metal vehicles at some point
13:23:54 <FLHerne> UKRS2 allows you to refit, say, sugarbeet to wood but not wood to sugarbeet. Confusing and breaks things :-(
13:25:03 <frosch123> i.e. make refittability use real equivalency classes
13:25:10 <frosch123> symmetrical and transitive
13:26:00 <andythenorth> how should I implement that?
13:27:01 <frosch123> either label based or only allow refitting between exactly same cargoclasses
13:27:15 <frosch123> resp. ignore one class completely
13:28:09 <frosch123> if you allow bulk<->oversized and bulk<->powderized, you also have to allow oversized<->powderized
13:28:24 <andythenorth> and if I only allow in same class?
13:28:41 <andythenorth> on a three hop journey
13:28:54 <frosch123> you must compare all classes then
13:29:10 <andythenorth> [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED]
13:29:15 <frosch123> else you can refit bulk -> bulk+powder -> powder and not get back to bulk
13:29:17 <andythenorth> four hops, no more refit
13:29:36 <andythenorth> pathological case? I think not :P
13:30:26 <frosch123> better allow a vehicle to only carry bulk
13:31:29 <MNIM> since when does mint have rolling updates on it's non-debian versions?
13:32:40 <FLHerne> It doesn't, does it? :o
13:33:12 <MNIM> I was very pleasantly surprised when I just checked and it turns out I installed the most recent version of OTTD via it's software manager.
13:33:50 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever
13:34:03 <frosch123> 'most recent' is not either
13:34:39 <frosch123> @topic set -2 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither
13:34:39 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.2.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only"
13:34:57 <MNIM> Sacro: ouch. It's/Its is one of those things in the english language I still do wrong
13:35:12 <MNIM> telanus: well, the latest stable, 1.2.1 according to the site
13:35:16 <Sacro> MNIM: it is -> it's, belonging to it -> its
13:35:32 <frosch123> sometimes there are also generic nightly packages, which grab the newest source from openttd.org whenever you update them
13:35:38 <MNIM> yeah, I know the theory, I just keep doing it WRONG >.<
13:37:14 * andythenorth thinks ships refit anything, automatically
13:37:34 <andythenorth> maybe I should split the tanker sprites to separate IDs
13:37:42 <andythenorth> despite they have same hull, stats etc
13:37:58 * telanus always plays with the latest nightly :D
13:38:10 <andythenorth> tankers -> refit any liquid
13:38:24 <andythenorth> not tanker -> refit anything except liquid
13:38:58 * andythenorth refrigerated class?
13:39:28 <andythenorth> refrigerated LNG :P
13:39:52 <andythenorth> I don't really want to spam the buy menu with tankers
13:39:55 <andythenorth> but maybe I should
13:43:35 <andythenorth> if (liquid): auto-refit only if liquid
13:44:00 <andythenorth> that has some horrible edge cases with (liquid + something else)
13:44:05 <andythenorth> this sucks doesn't it :)
13:44:27 <andythenorth> I need storage on the vehicle
13:46:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ you are good at thorny problems
13:46:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else
13:47:02 <andythenorth> should I just spam the buy menu with tankers?
13:47:23 <Terkhen> a ship can refit to all cargos
13:47:35 <Terkhen> autorefitting between cargos of the same group is free
13:47:43 <andythenorth> how do you define group?
13:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if passengers, refit to passengers, if liquid refit to liquid, if non-liquid refit to non-liquid and non-passenger
13:47:55 <Terkhen> refitting between cargos of different groups has a cost and must be done at a shipyard
13:48:10 <Terkhen> andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else would be the groups in this case
13:48:11 <andythenorth> so exact match of classes?
13:48:20 * andythenorth is puzzled how to implement
13:48:24 <Terkhen> check ogfx-rv readme, that's how I did groups
13:48:27 <andythenorth> maybe I can store something on the animation frame
13:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no, exact match of the "passenger" and "liquid" classes, don't-care on all others
13:48:36 * Terkhen implements it based on cargo labels
13:48:58 <andythenorth> so 'liquid' can't refit to 'liquid, refrigerated' ?
13:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it can, because refrigerated is "don't care"
13:49:57 <andythenorth> people who don't want vehicles 'stuck' in a certain class - shouldn't use autorefit
13:51:26 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you maintain lists of clean / dirty cargo labels?
13:51:56 <andythenorth> was reading it ;)
13:52:11 <Terkhen> as I said, I do it label by label
13:52:15 <andythenorth> ok so yes, by label
13:52:26 <andythenorth> you make work for yourself in future?
13:52:50 <Terkhen> if a new cargo is added, it would need at most a new line for each vehicle :)
13:53:20 <Terkhen> I could try to find a cargo class scheme, but this is simpler to understand
13:53:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don't see any easy way to guarantee symmetrical refits
13:53:39 <Terkhen> what do you mean with symmetrical refits?
13:54:01 <andythenorth> basically, a warranty that all your vehicles won't end up autorefitted to scrap metal, with no way out
13:54:39 <andythenorth> on a four hop order list, you could easily start with cargo x, and have no way back to it
13:54:51 <andythenorth> e.g [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED]
13:54:57 <andythenorth> can't get back to BULK
13:55:00 <andythenorth> so your route breaks
13:56:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: you have to limit the clases you check
13:57:33 * andythenorth thinks there will be a pathological case for every scheme
13:57:49 <frosch123> if you have a specific rule to allow refitting piece to piece, you have to forbid refitting non-piece to piece and vice versa
13:58:40 <frosch123> so, you can make one vehicle which carries all piece goods and can refit between them
13:58:48 <frosch123> but it may not carry anything non-piece
13:59:14 <frosch123> simliar you can make a vehicle that can carry refridgerated stuff, but it may not carry non-refridged stuff
13:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: example 1 above is "ignore piece/bulk differences", example 2 would be, you have a "main" class for the ship, e.g. "piece" then you can refit to from "piece" to "piece, bulk" and vice versa, but not from "piece, bulk" to "bulk"
14:01:14 * andythenorth is going to do some driving for 2 hours, that often produces an answer
14:01:28 <andythenorth> currently, it looks like adding tankers to the set might be the best solution
14:01:46 <andythenorth> the issue with tankers is that they have completely different graphics, I don't want them changing at stations
14:01:58 <andythenorth> that adds ~20 ships to the buy menu :P
14:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the idea was that anything that has "liquid" [and any other combination] cargo class can refit, and anything that has "not liquid" [and any combination] can refit
14:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so "piece,liquid" will be counted as liquid in all cases
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15:03:38 <frosch123> V453000: try bananas upload again
15:05:59 <MNIM> andy, you're the one that makes FIRS, right?
15:07:50 <LordAro> why is it that to install doxygen i have to get ~500MB of archives??
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15:15:00 <frosch123> maybe it contains the docs of everything
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15:40:19 <cyph3r> Is OpenTTDCoop on this server?
15:42:24 <Zuu> you could try "!password" here to get a prompt message about it :-)
15:42:36 *** cyph3r was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
15:43:32 <Zuu> well at least I warned you
15:44:07 <cyph3r> Yes, kick without a warning would be unpleasant.
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16:17:24 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24402 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp station_func.h): -Fix [FS#5243]: Station properties 11 and 14 were combined incorrectly.
16:18:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24403 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Draw wires under low bridges if the bridge is transparent, not if the wire is transparent.
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16:26:54 <LordAro> funny how sometimes, you find ancient bugs that you wonder why no one noticed before :)
16:34:30 <andythenorth> vehicles don't have an animation frame?
16:34:36 <andythenorth> they have to rely on the motion counter?
16:34:47 <frosch123> they have time and motion counter
16:34:57 <frosch123> they have no persistent storage
16:35:49 <andythenorth> I thought we'd have abused it by now if there was animation frame :P
16:37:11 <andythenorth> using a trackpad is harder with a toddler sitting on your forearm
16:39:27 <andythenorth> the refit issue I have with FISH is another manifestion of 'cargo subtypes are a bad hack'
16:39:42 <andythenorth> at least for changing the physical properties of the vehicle
16:40:30 <andythenorth> (1) vehicles get storage; never seems to get resolved if we like this or not
16:41:01 <andythenorth> (2) give buy menu 'categories', same as for stations; then group vehicles by category ('Tankers', 'Cargo Ships') etc
16:41:35 <andythenorth> (3) continue to use subtype as a hack, but introduce a new magic cargo for use in refit menu, which is equivalent to 'any valid refittable cargo'
16:42:26 <andythenorth> which would allow things like 'Any valid refittable cargo for tanker', 'Any valid refittable cargo for general cargo vessel'
16:42:36 <andythenorth> (4) spam the buy menu
16:43:31 <frosch123> the buy menu is only spammed if people do not use the retire early property
16:44:09 <andythenorth> I should learn how that works :P
16:44:37 * andythenorth is leaning towards 'add ship IDs for tankers'
16:44:50 <andythenorth> probably also 'reefers' and 'livestock carriers'
16:45:36 <andythenorth> FISH already has 30 ships or so
16:45:47 <andythenorth> dunno another 20 really enhances it :|
16:47:12 <FLHerne> It'll never be as bad as eGRVTS, so go ahead :P
16:47:18 <frosch123> i think whenever i played fish, all ships were already available
16:47:27 <frosch123> i did never noticed anyone being introduced new
16:47:44 <frosch123> are all introdates before 1920?
16:48:04 <FLHerne> More variety would definitely be nice :-)
16:50:09 <FLHerne> Is using multiple industry sets a universal [no], or would it be possible to have industry sets that were compatible?
16:50:24 <andythenorth> all intro dates are 1870 for FISH
16:50:42 <andythenorth> industry sets could be compatible via co-operation between authors
16:51:05 <andythenorth> I'm going to cut down the scope of FISH to start around 1920
16:51:14 <andythenorth> the long game is over-rated
16:51:44 <andythenorth> but I remain puzzled about autorefit
16:54:29 <FLHerne> Long games are the best kind :P
17:05:19 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24404 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Data structures for cargo transport monitoring.
17:07:08 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24405 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Save and load of active cargo monitors.
17:11:16 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24406 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow game scripts to monitor cargo pickups and deliveries done by companies.
17:12:27 <Alberth> with many thanks to Zuu for his assistance
17:12:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think FISH covers the modern era quite well with different sized ships
17:14:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> it could use some older boats/barges though, smaller steam ones or early diesels with smaller capacity (think english narrow-canalboats, the pulled from shore boats (using horsed usually) etc etc
17:18:47 <andythenorth> currently FISH is beached
17:20:25 <andythenorth> stuck on: buy menu + autorefit
17:21:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Buy menu looks a pain. What's up with autorefit?
17:22:01 <andythenorth> no sane scheme to make it work
17:23:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that concept or implementation? Or both? :P
17:24:57 <andythenorth> I'll probably use the idea from Eddi|zuHause
17:25:10 <andythenorth> I do in more cases than not
17:28:55 <andythenorth> I could use cargo subtype
17:29:09 <V453000> Hi! I am trying to update my newGRF on bananas and as usual, I add a zip with grf, license, readme and changelog. In compare to the older versions is changed not only .grf file but also readme file a bit. As a result I am getting an error "a package can include only one license file" :o Does anyone know what to do with that please?
17:30:32 <michi_cc> V453000: Did you try after 17:02 CEST?
17:30:47 <FLHerne> Separate tankers in buy menu/vehicle types. Allow autorefitting between all bulk mineral types. Allow autorefitting between all 'clean' bulk types (grain/beet). Allow depot-only refitting between dirty/clean bulk types.
17:31:12 <V453000> yay it worked now michi_cc :D thanks
17:31:58 <frosch123> since yesterday you can add translated readmes and changelogs
17:32:05 <frosch123> since today you can upload custom licenses again :p
17:32:19 <andythenorth> autorefit adds a lot of micro-management
17:33:19 <FLHerne> Allow autorefitting between refrigerated types. Allow (expensive) depot-only refitting between this and bulk types.
17:33:58 <FLHerne> Allow depot-only refitting between pax and mail.
17:34:46 <FLHerne> Allow autorefit between supplies/timber/metal/goods. Do not allow autorefitting of tankers, but have cheap depot refits.
17:35:05 <andythenorth> how do you satisfy the 'refits must be symmetric' condition?
17:35:28 <andythenorth> grain > clay but ! clay > grain in this scheme ;)
17:35:41 <andythenorth> fails symmetric requirement
17:35:46 <FLHerne> Allow (expensive) depot refit between supplies etc and other no-tanker/non-pax types. There. Done :P
17:35:47 *** zxbiohazardzx_ has joined #openttd
17:36:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No. only depot refit between dirty/clean bulk types :P
17:36:30 <andythenorth> not symmetric :)
17:37:01 <FLHerne> Forbid autorefit from clean -> dirty, not just dirty -> clean
17:37:35 <frosch123> FLHerne: asymmetric refittability sucks for gameplay
17:37:54 <frosch123> though i cannot remember whether you can allow autorefitting and make it cost at the same time
17:39:14 <andythenorth> it's important not to have asymmetric across a chain of refits too
17:39:45 <andythenorth> e.g. one refit might be symmetric, but the classes are also the union of two asymmetric refits
17:40:25 <andythenorth> so you end up with a lof of micromanagement
17:40:57 <andythenorth> because your vehicles a forever getting stuck at stations unable to refit
17:41:37 <FLHerne> FLHerne: No assymetric autorefits. Just can't explain intelligibly
17:43:28 * andythenorth is heading towards 'autorefit any'
17:44:18 <frosch123> you could try making autorefit rediculous expensive :p
17:44:50 <frosch123> refitting oil->water for 10 times is worth a new vehicle
17:45:09 <zxbiohazardzx_> give it a limited number of refits?
17:45:14 <zxbiohazardzx_> aka max refits = X
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24407 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt korean.txt):
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 15 changes by telanus
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093
17:45:30 <andythenorth> having considered it, I don't like any of this stuff
17:45:30 <zxbiohazardzx_> reduce 1 per refit, when 0 do not allow refitting but insist on new ?
17:45:42 <andythenorth> refit is opaque to the user, there's nothing about it in the GUI
17:45:48 <andythenorth> it's mystery meat
17:46:03 <andythenorth> I don't think playing a guessing game of 'wtf, how does autorefit work' is a fun game
17:46:14 <andythenorth> smells all wrong to me
17:46:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: Terkhen you wanted autorefit in FISH?
17:47:25 <zxbiohazardzx_> would it be possible for eg the rivership to carry coal for 50% and iron for other 50%
17:47:36 <Alberth> difficult to say, I have had one case where auto-refit would be useful
17:47:37 <zxbiohazardzx_> aka mimic the real-life loading bays inside the ship
17:47:44 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx_ if you make two trips, each half-empty, yes
17:47:47 <zxbiohazardzx_> aka multiple cargos within a ship
17:48:02 <zxbiohazardzx_> andythenorth no i suggested to have 1 trip, both cargos in 1 ship
17:48:14 <andythenorth> have two smaller ships
17:48:33 <zxbiohazardzx_> i want 1 big ship with split cargo option
17:49:23 <andythenorth> if you provide a patch, it might be accepted
17:49:33 <andythenorth> I'll code newgrf support for it if you add it
17:50:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: so it happens some times, and it would be fun to see how auto-refit would handle it. However, I cannot oversee all consequences of auto-refit, perhaps it makes life too complicated
17:50:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I sent you a diagram as a PM
17:51:03 <FLHerne> Is there something like pastebin for images?
17:52:37 <zxbiohazardzx_> imagedump, imageshack or eehm
17:52:44 <zxbiohazardzx_> there was a imagedropper somewhere
17:54:06 <andythenorth> so FLHerne proposes label based refit
17:54:12 <andythenorth> maybe that's the right answer
17:54:43 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Class-based refits would have strange cases
17:54:48 <andythenorth> label based autorefit would need a class based fallback
17:54:56 <andythenorth> otherwise the grf can't support new cargos
17:55:11 <FLHerne> True. Not that many industry grfs though :P
17:55:51 <FLHerne> Pikkabird's UKRS2 has class-based refits, some of which are totally nonsensical :-(
17:56:03 <andythenorth> so can't refit from e.g. grain to goods - what's the reasoning?
17:56:12 <andythenorth> would need explaining to players
17:56:27 <frosch123> add a translated readme :p
17:56:36 <FLHerne> Grain tends not to come in convenient boxes :P
17:56:42 <zxbiohazardzx_> ships refitting code is in ship_cmd?
17:56:56 <andythenorth> FLHerne: so cargos are always in one and only one group?
17:57:09 <FLHerne> I suppose you could have it in both categories, it would make sense for sacks
17:57:28 <FLHerne> No. I started typing the above before your answer, though
17:57:43 <andythenorth> has to be one and only one group per label
17:57:53 <ben1066_> the openttd android port is unofficial right?
17:57:57 <andythenorth> otherwise you can get vehicles stuck in a dead-end refit
17:58:01 *** ben1066_ is now known as ben1066
17:58:06 <FLHerne> Ok, have it in one group then :P
17:58:13 <ben1066> what do you guys think of it on tablets in anycase?
17:58:46 <FLHerne> Unless you could differentiate between grain (piece goods) and grain (clean bulk) with cargo subtypes?
17:58:48 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx_: I suspect in vehicle_* somewhere, as all types of transport can do refitting
17:58:54 <FLHerne> Unsure how those work, tbh
17:59:07 <FLHerne> ben1066: Hopeless without a mouse.
17:59:14 <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz k, ship_cmd only has building a ship, not refitting it :P
17:59:32 <andythenorth> so which group does wood go in?
17:59:38 * Zuu likes tablets as in wacom tablets
17:59:50 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx_: grep Refit src/*.cpp :)
17:59:52 <Zuu> Eg as a mouse replacement, used with a pen
18:00:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: long things
18:00:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth Unsure. Probably with goods/timber. Others would make even less sense
18:00:21 <Zuu> A fat finger on the other hand can't do right/middle clicks and have much worse precision.
18:00:30 <andythenorth> where does scrap metal go?
18:00:44 <FLHerne> Dirty bulk, definitely
18:02:15 <FLHerne> Which kind? Timber is piece, goods from paper mill are also piece
18:02:34 <andythenorth> wood products covers timber, board, wood chips
18:02:53 <frosch123> lumber is dirty bulk, wood products are clean builk
18:02:55 <FLHerne> Scrap is because it makes sense for gameplay - goes to the same places as coal/bauxite/ore :P
18:03:09 <andythenorth> cut wood is clean bulk? :o
18:03:22 <andythenorth> it's not pourable
18:03:27 <FLHerne> frosch123: Unconvinced. Timber is definitely piece goods.
18:03:37 <andythenorth> cut wood is countable
18:03:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Are there non-timber wood products in ECS or FIRS?
18:04:03 <andythenorth> it's silly to do this for one vehicle set
18:04:09 <andythenorth> it should be a standard across sets
18:04:18 <andythenorth> frosch123 can we have a new cargo property: 'cargo group' ?
18:04:31 <andythenorth> it would be ideal for this situation
18:04:37 * FLHerne agrees. This is silly :P
18:05:06 <andythenorth> cargo groups will need identifiers / names
18:05:11 <andythenorth> what would they be?
18:05:55 <frosch123> FLHerne: i have seen trucks with stake wagons for wood
18:06:04 <frosch123> but on trains i have only seen open wagons with wood
18:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> wood isn't carried on rail as often as it used to
18:06:57 <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz so far i cant find anything for it :(
18:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what would "group" be fundamentally different from "class"?
18:07:53 <FLHerne> frosch123: All UK wood trains I've seen are staked
18:08:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it would solve all these problems of course ;)
18:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's fairly unlikely :p
18:08:30 <zxbiohazardzx_> actually i think my question comes down to articulated ships
18:08:34 <zxbiohazardzx_> or at least cargowise
18:08:45 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx_: +1
18:08:46 <zxbiohazardzx_> so engine.cpp would require a similar line as road/trains have?
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18:08:55 <frosch123> google has lots of staked wood trains
18:09:11 <andythenorth> invisible articulated ships ~= ships with n holds
18:09:31 <zxbiohazardzx_> ala case VEH_SHIP: if(this->u.ship?.capacity ==0) return false; break;
18:09:38 <zxbiohazardzx_> assuming ship for its rail and road....
18:09:41 <andythenorth> ships can't collide so should be easy ;)
18:10:02 <zxbiohazardzx_> well ship_cmd doesnt limit cargoes
18:10:12 <zxbiohazardzx_> it simply gets teh cargo from engine.cpp
18:10:21 <zxbiohazardzx_> const ShipVehicleInfo *svi = &e->u.ship;
18:10:31 <zxbiohazardzx_> v->cargo_type = e->GetDefaultCargoType();
18:10:31 <zxbiohazardzx_> v->cargo_cap = svi->capacity;
18:10:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in germany the "Drehschemelwagen" was common. it's basically two short wagons which can be adjusted in distance according to what is loaded on them.
18:11:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for the tricky case, I'm going to do something like 'if current subtype == Tanker, and cargo subtype == Tanker, allow'
18:11:19 <andythenorth> and similar for 'General Cargo' subtype
18:11:38 <zxbiohazardzx_> case VEH_SHIP:
18:11:38 <zxbiohazardzx_> capacity = GetEngineProperty(this->index, PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY, this->u.ship.capacity, v);
18:11:42 <andythenorth> I can also handle ships that have different graphics for PAX cargo this way
18:11:47 <zxbiohazardzx_> blegh, stupid point to point to point :(
18:12:11 <zxbiohazardzx_> PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY is a variable you can set in newgrf i assume?
18:12:11 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Those would be 'single bolsters' here, used to be common.
18:13:09 <zxbiohazardzx_> whatever i have to go :(
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18:13:43 <andythenorth> nobody tell zx how hard patching ships is
18:14:02 <andythenorth> he might achieve it if he doesn't know he has to figure out the refit gui and all the things we couldn't agree on previouslyu
18:26:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I was away
19:12:31 <andythenorth> so in FISH I'm going to allow autorefit if cargo subtype matches
19:12:57 <andythenorth> and I'm going to introduce cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship
19:13:06 <andythenorth> this doesn't work for BANDIT :|
19:13:37 <FLHerne> "cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship"?
19:13:50 <andythenorth> General cargo vessel
19:14:46 <Terkhen> I'm not sure if that's overcomplicated or the first useful usage of cargo subtypes I have seen
19:15:27 <andythenorth> subtypes are very valid for this case
19:15:27 <FLHerne> Why doesn't it work for BANDIT?
19:15:49 * andythenorth wonders how may subtypes are supported
19:16:15 <FLHerne> Also, does that allow autorefitting between (say) Milk and Petrol?
19:17:06 <FLHerne> You'll give all the TT-People nasty diseases :-(
19:17:13 <andythenorth> where is the var for cargo subtype hiding in the wiki?
19:17:17 <__ln__> Anyone been to the Cité de Espace in Toulouse?
19:17:42 <__ln__> correction: Cité de l'espace
19:18:31 <andythenorth> cargo subtype has values 0..255
19:18:37 <FLHerne> Can't you add separate subclasses for Tanker (clean) and Tanker (poisonous) ;p
19:18:50 <andythenorth> not an insane suggestion
19:19:03 <andythenorth> how many bits can I stuff in 0..255 if I use it as a bitmask?
19:19:09 <FLHerne> Actually, getting oil residue in chemicals might be a bad thing (r) too :P
19:19:32 <andythenorth> FLHerne: my company always flushes the tanks with steam before reloading :P
19:19:35 <andythenorth> the customer pays
19:19:57 <FLHerne> Add an autorefit cost for tankers then?
19:20:10 <andythenorth> then it wont autorefit at stations
19:20:23 <andythenorth> if I can bit-stuff the cargo subtype, I can use it for both: number trailers for a truck, type of current trailers
19:20:38 <andythenorth> 0, 2, 4, 8 = number of trailers
19:21:04 <andythenorth> hmm only 4 types available :(
19:21:59 <FLHerne> Do you need 4 bits for no of trailers? Or did I miss something?
19:22:12 <andythenorth> between 0 and 3 trailers per truck
19:22:49 <FLHerne> Surely that's 2 bits? Or does that not work in NML/NFO?
19:23:27 <FLHerne> s/not work/work differently/
19:23:28 <andythenorth> dunno it if works for a bit mask
19:23:42 <andythenorth> trailer types, I have at least 5: Tanker, Box, Flat, Tipper, Stakes
19:26:15 <FLHerne> That's still only 5 bits out of 8? Correct me if totally wrong, I haven't tried to use that in NML yet :P
19:29:35 <andythenorth> do I only need 3 for the trailers?
19:29:41 <andythenorth> no bits set = no trailers
19:29:46 <andythenorth> bit 1 set = 1 trailer
19:31:05 <FLHerne> If you only have 0 to 3, you should only need 2 bits :P
19:31:26 * FLHerne probably missed the point again
19:33:34 <andythenorth> 2 = 1 trailer, 4 = 2 trailers, 6 = 3 trailers
19:34:24 <andythenorth> BANDIT has this nice feature where it will choose random trailer graphics for some cargos
19:34:28 <andythenorth> that needs to be removed :P
19:35:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why? Random is nice :-)
19:35:43 <andythenorth> incompatible with autoreft
19:36:06 <andythenorth> makes autorefit orders non-deterministic
19:36:11 <andythenorth> which causes micro-management
19:37:13 <FLHerne> That makes sense now :-)
19:41:44 <michi_cc> andythenorth: autorefit can have a cost if you use the CB.
19:42:27 * andythenorth should read the spec :P
19:43:07 <andythenorth> for some reason I thought cost had to be 0 for autorefit
19:43:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Possibly because no-one uses that yet?
19:57:02 * andythenorth just played a flash game with 'achievments'
19:57:14 <andythenorth> I've heard of these, but never ever played a game with them
19:57:21 <andythenorth> why doesn't openttd have them? :P
19:59:11 <telanus1> what type of achievements could OpenTTD have?
19:59:17 *** telanus1 is now known as telanus
19:59:45 <andythenorth> 'you built a train: 50 points!'
20:00:05 <frosch123> transport 1000 tons of coal with one train in a year
20:00:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: achievments or goals? :P
20:00:21 <frosch123> bought 3 opponents within one game
20:00:38 <KenjiE20> coop achievement, cover 80% of land in tracks
20:00:39 <telanus> "Build a Airroute that brings in $500000 per trip"
20:02:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: like highscores, but based on different things
20:02:50 <andythenorth> I am a bit cynical about 'achievements' tbh
20:02:53 <frosch123> things you do not know in advance
20:03:13 <andythenorth> GS could deliver achievments
20:12:00 <andythenorth> reefer ships have been around a long time :o
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22:02:14 <LordAro> g'night to anyone who's left
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continue to next day ⏵
