IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-14
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04:01:11 <Svenska> hi. i just had an idea while travelling some time ago: when the train broke down, it was connected to the following train and both went together until the broken train was taken out of service some stops later
04:02:50 <Svenska> can multiheaded trains get less (or less severe) breakdowns? i think the chance of complete breakdown completely is head1*head2... and if one head breaks down, the train is slower
04:04:02 <Svenska> so in gameplay there's at least a possibility to have breakdowns not tear down your whole network in worst case
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07:52:19 <Supercheese> Heh, I've just started using TortoiseSVN for a personal, non-OTTD project I'm working on, and importing all the files to start is going to take forever, as I have about 500MB worth
07:52:48 <Supercheese> Not sure if it's my upload speed that's limiting things, or what
07:53:53 <Supercheese> The poor upload window keeps Not Responding, even though it still keeps uploading
07:54:54 <Wolf01> versioning systems give their best for the code, not for the assets
07:56:34 <Alberth> Supercheese: it copies the entire project history
07:57:36 <Alberth> Supercheese: oh, sorry, SVN. that just copies the current working copy
07:58:15 * Alberth thinks too much Mercurial
07:58:21 <Supercheese> I've never used any version control stuff before, but it seems straightforward enough
07:58:40 <Supercheese> especially since I'm the sole developer
07:58:42 <Alberth> SVN is sort of useless unless you have commit access
07:59:08 <Supercheese> I started a project at Google code, free hosting ftw
07:59:22 <Alberth> yeah, FreeRCT is there too :)
08:00:00 <Alberth> it's probably the network that is slow
08:01:04 <Supercheese> Hmm, issue tracker doesn't seem to have a category for "Feature being worked on"
08:01:10 <Supercheese> or "Feature request"
08:01:17 <planetmaker> Supercheese: if you've never used any vcs you might be better of starting with hg or git
08:01:18 <Supercheese> guess ya gotta make those custom?
08:01:26 <Alberth> you can add new fields
08:01:57 <Supercheese> Already chose Subversion
08:02:46 <Alberth> basically, you're missing patch queues, which are nice to order your commits
08:03:47 <planetmaker> Alberth: I think they offer more potential and easier sharing (if you - maybe later - care to)
08:04:01 <Supercheese> Well, I'm not developing a program per se, but rather a series of configuration files to be loaded by another program
08:04:10 <planetmaker> and imho also easier to locally follow through an idea and throw it away
08:04:13 <Supercheese> Also I do not expect any other folk to work on this, just me
08:04:28 <dihedral> Supercheese, hg and git allow committing and branching and tagging without a connection to the server, and you can push changes later on
08:04:34 <dihedral> which is useful if you are on the go, e.g.
08:04:39 <Alberth> planetmaker: true, hg is more flexible in that aspect
08:04:42 <planetmaker> Supercheese: dvcs already is easier if you work on different machines
08:05:09 <dihedral> planetmaker, constant tar snapshots :-D
08:05:13 <Supercheese> Yeah, it's the Baskin Robbins syndrome, too many choices
08:05:29 <dihedral> Supercheese, learn hg - you'll enjoy it
08:05:38 <dihedral> rather than learning svn and then needing to switch to hg later on :-D
08:05:46 <planetmaker> yes. hg is mercurial
08:06:04 <dihedral> and if you know hg you know a lot about git also
08:06:43 <Alberth> dihedral: except how to work with it, as they changed the meaning of all commands :)
08:07:30 <Supercheese> Well, guess I should switch to mercurial while I haven't yet started
08:07:34 <Alberth> Supercheese: You can import an SVN repository into hg (or git iirc), so switching can be done later
08:07:44 <Supercheese> Ah, well I won't cancel the upload
08:07:45 <planetmaker> Supercheese: there's also a tortoiseHG
08:07:56 <Supercheese> Yes, I saw, git too IINM
08:08:22 * Supercheese wonders if anyone other than himself uses that acronym
08:08:47 <Alberth> Supercheese: the advantage of SVN is that it is terribly simple, at the cost of flexibility
08:08:48 * planetmaker doesn't. What does it stand for?
08:08:54 <Supercheese> If I'm Not Mistaken
08:09:16 <Supercheese> fairly equivalent to IIRC
08:09:23 <Supercheese> but that's too cliche :P
08:11:08 <Supercheese> I've been developing this project for a few months, and I've discovered why folks invented revisioning way back when
08:11:47 <Supercheese> "Crap, what did I change from this version to that?"
08:12:25 <Supercheese> among other questions
08:14:02 <planetmaker> the good thing is that commits basically come for free once you get the hang of it
08:14:15 <planetmaker> and you learn to appreciate plain text files in many contexts :-)
08:14:43 <Supercheese> Presumably I just work on stuff and each time I change things and everything compiles nicely I choose commit
08:15:12 <Alberth> as well as 'revert' :) It is simple to do an experiment, and if it doesn't work, just revert to the last good state.
08:15:30 <Supercheese> Fortunately, compiling this project takes at most 20 seconds
08:15:32 <planetmaker> :-) Yeah. Or update to the last working revision or so
08:16:21 <Supercheese> Heh, "Files 1 - 100 of 7353"
08:16:32 <Supercheese> That's a lot of "Next" button clicks
08:17:15 <planetmaker> uh... sounds like sucky gui
08:17:31 <planetmaker> I guess I only use the command line interface of vcs'
08:17:33 <Supercheese> Eh, it's what Google gives ya
08:17:41 <Supercheese> I don't plan on actually using that interface
08:17:41 <dihedral> Alberth, a commit is still a commit, and a push is still a push
08:17:46 <dihedral> same with pull, clone update
08:17:59 <planetmaker> 15:55 planetmaker: as such one can work with 5 commands alone: clone, push, pull, diff and commit. And maybe log as 6th
08:18:09 <planetmaker> ^^ that's all it needs imho to get started
08:18:34 <planetmaker> the rest is extra. Though sometimes very handy extra
08:18:54 <dihedral> but if you need extra, you are able to find out how 'extra' works
08:19:08 <dihedral> planetmaker, up is that not an alias to update?
08:19:11 <Alberth> Supercheese: that's one way of doing commits. You'll find that sometimes you want to do a commit, but you are not exactly sure whether it is the right solution, as 3 commits further is the crucial point that may or may not go wrong. This is where patch queues come in.
08:19:13 <planetmaker> and no-one in #mercurial contradicted :-P
08:19:31 <dihedral> ah - you did not mention it
08:19:33 <Alberth> dihedral: false "git add" != "hg add"
08:19:55 <planetmaker> and... maybe add indeed :-P
08:20:12 <Alberth> dihedral: yep, this is the whole staging stuff of git
08:20:17 <planetmaker> so. 7 commands. clone, push, pull, diff, commit, add, update and maybe log and merge
08:20:51 <Alberth> git commits the file as it was on the git add, while hg commits the file as it is during commit
08:21:26 <planetmaker> uh. I was not aware of that difference
08:21:43 <Alberth> that's where the magic commit -a comes from
08:22:04 * Supercheese is somewhat confused
08:22:41 <planetmaker> Supercheese: don't let yourself be confused... details :-)
08:22:42 <dihedral> Alberth, ok - but both add a file
08:22:45 <Alberth> Supercheese: no worries it's like a religion, my system is better than yours :)
08:22:50 <planetmaker> unimportant details for a starter
08:23:01 <dihedral> so the difference is important if you change a file after adding it
08:23:07 <dihedral> and before committing it
08:23:16 <Alberth> dihedral: you claimed they were equal :)
08:23:21 * planetmaker does that. Quite often actually
08:23:53 <dihedral> Alberth, the use of the commands hg and git are for a certain respect equal
08:24:07 <dihedral> the implementation of the commands are most likely not
08:24:39 <planetmaker> the only real issue is that hg add != git add and similar in other equal looking commands
08:24:41 <dihedral> hg add is still git add (even if a little but important difference in the file handling is there)
08:24:41 <Alberth> hg and git are mostly equal in functionality too
08:25:01 <dihedral> and the storage engine is different
08:25:12 <dihedral> but that does not mean that if i can use hg i could not use git
08:25:16 <Alberth> dihedral: but details is what makes the difference imho
08:25:18 <planetmaker> but the functionality of the programmes is approx. the same. They just call things differently
08:25:29 <dihedral> as the commands i need to achive the same are still the same commands
08:25:34 <planetmaker> like both German and English are a language. Some words are similar, others not
08:25:44 <Supercheese> "boot", for example
08:25:45 <planetmaker> or maybe rather German and Dutch. Fits better
08:26:06 <dihedral> Alberth, imo that is nitpicking
08:26:16 <dihedral> to a beginner it is a minor difference
08:26:41 <planetmaker> dihedral: and you notice that Alberth nitpicks on purpose and you fall so well for the tease ;-)
08:26:45 <dihedral> the basic meaning of the commands are the same
08:26:53 <Alberth> oh, you were talking about beginners. In that case, you are right
08:27:05 * Supercheese is definitely a beginner
08:27:52 <dihedral> planetmaker, i only just got up ... an hour ago
08:28:12 <Supercheese> Man, a server-side issue tracker is a thousand thousand times better than trying to remember stuff myself. "What was I planning to work on, again?"
08:28:47 <planetmaker> Supercheese: that's one of the reasons we setup the devzone ;-)
08:28:52 <planetmaker> hard to remember all the stuff
08:28:56 <Alberth> Supercheese: very true. Even better would be to have one in the repo itself, but I have not found one so far
08:29:08 <planetmaker> and easier to recall what people said when stored in a somewhat central place
08:29:15 <Supercheese> Well, Google has 'em side by side
08:29:24 <Supercheese> at least for my purposes anyhow
08:29:35 <planetmaker> Alberth: what do you mean with "in the repo"? Like them being commits?
08:29:50 <Alberth> a distributed tracker
08:29:50 <planetmaker> in a special "issue_tracker" branch?
08:30:21 <planetmaker> I thought that to be handy, too. As currently it's quite separate things... and tracker history is thus easier lost :-(
08:30:55 <Alberth> there are some attempts, eg bugseverywhere
08:31:15 <Alberth> but they don't seem to work for hg :p
08:31:51 <Alberth> (I tried it, it didn't work in a blatantly obvious way, reported it, and they solved it by withdrawing hg support :P )
08:32:55 <Alberth> it also gives new problems, like having a separate program for it, that should figure out which project to use
08:33:31 <planetmaker> hm, let's ask #mercurial whether they know a solution :-)
08:45:03 <Alberth> joy, pull and fetch have reversed meaning
08:45:35 <planetmaker> in order to avoid this complication I actually use hggit when I have to deal with git repos
08:46:12 <Alberth> I recently found 'eg', I have not tried it yet though
08:46:45 <planetmaker> what's that? (link)
08:49:20 <planetmaker> ah, thanks. /me reads
08:53:36 <Wolf01> gah, I hate mixing date formats, especially php's strftime with classic date formats
08:53:49 <planetmaker> interesting read, Alberth
08:54:21 <Alberth> I installed it, but probably by the time I need to use git, I have forgotten all about it :p
08:54:35 <planetmaker> hehe. I fear that to be the case here, too
08:55:29 <Wolf01> Thu 12-08-2012 21:09 instead of Thu 12-07-2012 21:08 %M is minutes not month, and %I is 12-hour format not minutes :P
08:56:42 <Alberth> be glad it doesn't change each time you start the program :p
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09:00:30 <Wolf01> I'm used to the date() formats, but sometimes I need strftime() formats and I make a lot of confusion
09:00:41 <Rubidium> wasn't there a massive rant about PHP somewhere?
09:00:52 <Rubidium> IMHO PHP is like a patchpack
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09:01:18 <Rubidium> everyone can add their bit without considering things important to some (like consistency and security)
09:02:50 <Wolf01> yeah, I think that too, but since ther were talking about bug trackers, it come to my mind to change the date format of flyspray, it was something like d D M Y H:i instead of the other format (strftime)
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09:04:49 <Wolf01> and in PHP there's an error due to misuse of :: which is written in Israelian
09:12:35 <Alberth> there are far bigger things wrong in php imho
09:15:33 <Wolf01> working as a web developer I found it does have a lot^2 of inconsistencies
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09:18:20 <Alberth> do they have strings as native data type yet? (instead of the collection of C string functions)
09:20:21 <Wolf01> no, still strings as array of chars
09:21:58 <Alberth> joy, so useful in a language intended to manipulate and generate pieces of text :p
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09:24:05 <Wolf01> You pull out the hammer, but to your dismay, it has the claw part on both sides. hahaha
09:24:17 <Wolf01> yeah, php it's really so
09:24:18 <cmircea> Someone actually made a hammer.
09:24:51 <cmircea> That is the best rant ever about a programming language. And it is all true.
09:25:50 <Supercheese> Well, good night all
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10:27:54 * andythenorth tries a game with new Canadian Set
10:32:25 <andythenorth> what good is a Canadian map with just 1 forest
10:33:24 <Hirundo> should FIRS increase forest probability, if it detects presence of canadian grfs?
10:33:49 <andythenorth> I suspect the issue here is that I always forget how probability works
10:34:14 <andythenorth> if I add some new industry types to the grf, I need to go and adjust probability for *every* other type
10:34:21 <andythenorth> took me too long to work that out :P
10:34:32 <andythenorth> probabilities are relative
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10:36:32 <andythenorth> with FIRS 0.6.4 I get more forests per new game (very unscientific test)
10:36:41 <andythenorth> compared to 0.7.5, which has more industry types
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10:37:20 <frosch123> the number of industries is fixed
10:37:32 <frosch123> so more types result in less per type
10:37:34 <andythenorth> obvious to people who are mathematically literate :P
10:37:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> question about dedi multiplayer
10:38:01 <frosch123> main reason why firs in unplayable for me :p
10:38:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> how do i load a savegame from the console?
10:38:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: ditto me
10:38:18 <andythenorth> I keep starting games and quitting because the chains are all wrong
10:38:19 <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: load "filename" ?
10:38:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: which industry types are out of balance for you?
10:38:33 <Hirundo> we need firs economies!~
10:38:35 <andythenorth> I'd better try and fix it
10:38:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea
10:38:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> load crash.sav --> no such file or directory
10:38:52 <frosch123> i think i never played firs for more than 5 minutes
10:39:00 <andythenorth> me neither recently
10:39:04 <andythenorth> I kind of hate it
10:39:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> prolly diff savedir
10:39:19 <andythenorth> FIRS looks nice, but is all wrong
10:39:31 * andythenorth considers rm -r firs*
10:39:44 <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: there are also ls and cd commands iirc
10:39:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz i moved the file using windows, that works :P
10:40:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> im playing an ECS game
10:40:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: just implement different economies :)
10:40:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> its a pain combined with cargodest :(
10:40:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> same goes for FIRS imo
10:40:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> its a great industryset
10:40:29 <Hirundo> andythenorth: I think there should be some parameters to remove / combine some industries ("economies", if you will)
10:40:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> but it becomes a pain when cargodest is added
10:40:53 <Hirundo> e.g. in a non-farming economy, there should be only 1 or 2 farm types, probably the mixed farm only
10:41:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> the cargobalancing act is a pain when you have 1 jam or something similar, it completely resets all the progress you made:P
10:41:22 <andythenorth> cargobalancing is a wrong thing anyway :)
10:41:39 <frosch123> Hirundo: i don't think combining industry types by removing the farm types helps
10:41:53 <frosch123> i think you rather have to cut down cargo types, and then see which industries remain
10:42:04 <andythenorth> the main blocker is implementation initially
10:42:12 <andythenorth> the game balance can be sorted out by testing
10:42:23 <andythenorth> but I have no sane way to right the code
10:43:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: independent of how to code... is there a concept of what econcomies should be available and what industries/cargo they should supply?
10:43:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> andythenorth try cargodest with first/ecs
10:43:24 <andythenorth> cargodest doesn't appeal at all
10:43:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> well pax/cargodest is fun imo
10:43:39 <andythenorth> I find it a very weird concept
10:43:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> its just a pain when combined with ECS/Firs
10:43:54 <andythenorth> I haven't tried it though, so I should give it a chance
10:43:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> on the "default" industries it actually adds some sort of challenge
10:44:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> and on the ECS game i run now it gives interesting results
10:44:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> and when you get the hang of it its actually a great addition
10:44:50 * andythenorth considers playing old FIRS, where the industry balance is correct
10:44:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> the balancing is a pain though :P
10:45:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill try out a FIRS game later i think
10:45:10 <andythenorth> FIRS is all wrong :P
10:45:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> last FIRS is a while ago
10:45:28 <FLHerne> It needs mroe industry types and cargos, that's all :P
10:45:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> i sometimes hate the complexity too much
10:45:49 * andythenorth hopes pikka shows up with TAI soon
10:46:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have you considered production caps on the first-generation industries?
10:47:07 <Hirundo> Are you planning to get it done?
10:47:15 <andythenorth> FLHerne: which / how much?
10:47:21 <FLHerne> The amount of wheat that one windmill can grind a month is silly :P
10:47:28 <frosch123> i see no reasons to not do it; but currently i am doing other things
10:47:44 <andythenorth> FLHerne: so how much wheat can one windmill grind per month?
10:47:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> actually depends on windmill size
10:48:01 <FLHerne> Unsure...perhaps I should look it up
10:48:15 <andythenorth> but you also have to make it a parameter
10:48:38 <andythenorth> and you have to decide what to do with the excess cargo delivered
10:48:46 <Hirundo> I don't mean to bug you about it, just being curious
10:49:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 "normal" windmill
10:49:51 <frosch123> no problem :) i just did not know how to interpret "planned" :)
10:50:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> ugh stupid new elec windmills
10:50:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> most results ofc link back to that
10:50:31 <Rubidium> actually, FIRS should become bilingual when in the presence of Canadian GRFs ;)
10:51:00 <FLHerne> About 250 coomb sacks/week, apparently
10:51:08 <FLHerne> Depending on weather :P
10:51:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> FLHerne how much is a sack in your weights?
10:52:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> 500.000 to 530.000 kg a year is average for a 25 meter 2x mill in netherlands
10:52:59 <andythenorth> the actual amount is not important
10:53:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> production capacity is depending on the "gevlucht" the area, improvement on the wings and the ammount of grinders
10:53:10 <andythenorth> you'll need to somehow match it to the number of farms on the map
10:53:29 <andythenorth> so you'll need to measure grain production, then build an appropriate number of windmills
10:53:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can find info on how many farms supply 1 mill
10:53:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> can you link industries to "nearby" industries
10:54:10 <andythenorth> this needs an openttd patch to build all primary industries first
10:54:21 <andythenorth> then build secondaries to match processing capacity to output
10:54:26 <andythenorth> maybe GS can do it
10:54:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you change the game-generation algorithm you could to
10:54:55 <andythenorth> and as before - it will need a parameter to enable / disable
10:55:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> im trying to find info on how many farms supply to 1 windmill
10:55:23 <FLHerne> 132 tons/month is what I got for a large tower mill
10:55:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> dutch mills produce 500-530 tons a year, for a normal sized mill
10:56:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> but as andy mentioned
10:56:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> you have to compare it to farm productions
10:56:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> farms from X to Y means mills from 5Y to 10Y (or something similar)
10:56:39 <FLHerne> Anyone have info on Smithy Forges? Those have the same issue :P
10:56:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> as in steelforges or actual small blacksmiths?
10:56:57 <andythenorth> how will you implement the limit?
10:57:02 <andythenorth> acceptance? or output?
10:57:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> andy can you not give min-max params for production?
10:57:22 <FLHerne> The blacksmiths in FIRS
10:57:26 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: yes
10:57:47 <andythenorth> so what happens when you reach the production cap?
10:57:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> then you can give farms a min X and max Y and give windmills a min 0 max 5Y or so
10:57:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> after that stop accepting
10:58:05 <andythenorth> so reject cargo?
10:58:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah reject untill below
10:58:27 <FLHerne> That would be annoying
10:58:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> you using stockpiles on FIRS or not?
10:58:37 <andythenorth> yes we're using stockpiles
10:58:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> ECS has similar approach
10:58:46 <andythenorth> stockpiles are stupid, but we have no choice
10:58:57 <FLHerne> Have production/unit delivered decrease as delivery rate rises :D
10:58:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> if supplied >>>>>> used --> stop accepting
10:59:08 <FLHerne> That would avoid vast pileups
10:59:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> imo its a valid mechanism
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10:59:32 * andythenorth considers starting a new industry set
10:59:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> and that solves your industry balancing as well
10:59:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> as then you can predetermine reasonable values per type based on suppliers
11:00:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> to use windmill example
11:00:23 <andythenorth> count the number of suppliers within n tiles
11:00:27 <andythenorth> and limit accordingly
11:00:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> farms produce between X and Y, windmill from 0 to 3Y, stockpile to 5Y?
11:00:35 <andythenorth> 200t per farm within 16 tiles
11:01:05 <andythenorth> would need to fix the farm production to a constant value
11:01:15 <andythenorth> variable production is boring anyway
11:01:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> you can even have variable production on the farms
11:01:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> but use the 200/farm as average
11:02:07 <andythenorth> but that means you might have too much cargo going to the windmill
11:02:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> again if you overshot it, stop accepting
11:02:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> average the farms on 200t and you should be fine
11:02:49 <andythenorth> but then how does the player transport that cargo?
11:02:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> make them 100-300
11:02:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> its like on ECS
11:03:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> it will auto-reaccept in time
11:03:09 <andythenorth> but then the transported rating can't be achieved
11:03:12 <andythenorth> it breaks the game
11:03:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> transfer options
11:03:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> i use them for ECS too
11:03:32 * andythenorth ponders transferring it all into a big black hole station
11:03:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> i cant get the system running without transferring
11:03:39 <andythenorth> but then vehicles would be losing money
11:03:42 <andythenorth> which breaks the game
11:03:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah tram it from dropoff to station
11:03:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> and you have income
11:04:05 <andythenorth> if it's not delivered, no income
11:04:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> lets say you have a dropoff station B
11:04:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> you transfer & leave empty @B so trains will continue
11:04:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> and from B you have a tram to C (the industry)
11:04:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> as soon as C accepts cargo, the tram will bring form B to C (short dist) and make the revenue
11:05:00 <andythenorth> 5 farms @ 300t = 1500t output per month
11:05:06 <andythenorth> but we're only accepting 1000t
11:05:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> when stockpile limit/acceptance is reached the station stops accepting and the cheap tram runs empty
11:05:12 <andythenorth> so we'll always have 500t untransported
11:05:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> if that is the case then the player should redirect that 500t to another accepting industry
11:05:46 <andythenorth> but the other industries will be capped too
11:05:51 <andythenorth> based on their neighbouring industry
11:05:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> and that is if you keep windmill static on 200t*producers in range
11:06:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> what if i decide to not bring my goods to nearby industry
11:06:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> but to a far away one
11:06:18 <andythenorth> same issue, somewhere else
11:06:26 <andythenorth> make the cap max*producers
11:06:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> or what if i have a windmill without nearby farms
11:06:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i transport to it from far away:P
11:07:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> you will always keep issues like that for you cant direct link the productions
11:07:04 <andythenorth> funding a new secondary would mean recalculating all the caps
11:07:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What are the light-concrete tiles in CHIPS source for? They don't seem to appear in-game
11:07:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka windmill = ALWAYS nearby farms*x
11:07:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> so if farm increases, so does windmill
11:07:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> or maybe allow upgrading it?
11:07:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar to funding/bringing a town
11:08:07 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the ones that are stone coloured? They were quarry tiles, deprecated
11:08:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> upgrade it for bigger capacity then default (incremental steps, exponentially more expensive )
11:08:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> that possible or?
11:08:32 <andythenorth> possible with a patch
11:08:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> so not on trunk/via newgrf?
11:08:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, the ones that look like light-grey concrete, with vehicle tracks (?) on
11:09:48 <FLHerne> They don't match any of the platforms, or OGFX baseset concrete, or the ones that you claim match TTD concrete
11:09:58 <FLHerne> |They look nice though :-)
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11:10:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> but an upgrade system wouldnt be too bad for the issue above
11:10:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> if your industry wont accept enough, you can increase capacity via investments :P
11:10:46 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they're an abandoned attempt to provide a concrete ground tile
11:10:55 <andythenorth> I prefer the one in the TTD base set though
11:10:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> to bad you cant get that done via newgrf only :P
11:11:10 * andythenorth thinks the game should be about building industry
11:11:14 <andythenorth> the transporting should be automatic
11:12:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe that is one thing though
11:12:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why abandoned? They easily look the best with huts on them :P
11:12:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> industries should check nearby stations for waiting cargo to use?
11:12:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if i drop it off on the station and its not accepting, it can grab from station when it is :P
11:12:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah stockpile issue
11:13:00 <andythenorth> FLHerne: feel free to use them
11:13:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: how is your RCT project going?
11:14:26 * andythenorth needs a new game. I'm kind of done with TTD, just can't get interested in it
11:14:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I already am :P
11:14:50 <Alberth> it needs a bit more code
11:15:06 <andythenorth> can I make people sick yet?
11:15:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FOSS only?
11:15:21 <andythenorth> has to be interruptable
11:15:35 <andythenorth> can't be anything that is absorbing, or can't be put on hold
11:15:41 <andythenorth> so no RT online play
11:15:44 <andythenorth> nothing action based
11:15:57 <andythenorth> nothing which requires concentration
11:16:32 <andythenorth> can we do all the graphics by printing unicode chars to the screen?
11:17:14 <Alberth> but doom-ascii already exists
11:17:52 * andythenorth wants to play Doom again
11:19:08 <Alberth> maybe play widelands?
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11:35:45 <andythenorth> I could split FIRS into 1-grf-per-industry?
11:37:35 <andythenorth> that solves economies
11:37:55 <planetmaker> it doesn't quite solve it. As not every combination makes sense, does it?
11:38:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill have the windmill the fishingboats and a steelmill
11:38:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> go go pointless industries go :P
11:38:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not until they raise the limit on number of loaded NewGrfs, you can't :P
11:40:51 <Rubidium> just go with the stuff economy
11:41:16 <Rubidium> extracting/growing stuff, making stuff into other stuff, moving stuff from houses to other houses and so forth
11:41:43 <Rubidium> then you need two, maybe three industries and one cargo
11:43:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid stuff is stupid
11:43:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> might be fun for toyland
11:43:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> baseblocks can be pax, can be cargo can be anything
11:44:15 <MNIM> how about an age of empires economy?
11:44:21 <MNIM> food, wood, stone and gold.
11:45:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> add iron and coal
11:45:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> iron coal gold wood stone
11:45:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> then again you usually go for steel as it is logical after iron+coal
11:45:44 <MNIM> farms need wood and make food, houses need food and make gold. towns need stone and wood to grow, and banks/markets need and make gold.
11:45:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> and that gives you steel -> something
11:45:52 <MNIM> that's the whole economy.
11:48:53 <MNIM> you could call it something like 'Simple Industries Mines Peoples and Life Economy.
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12:04:20 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24398 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt: -Fix: Most recent changes to Brazilian were syntactically wrong.
12:11:55 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24399 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: Korean.
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12:32:19 <Alberth> planetmaker: none of them seems to be able to find bugs based on some text, unless you count 'grep', but then you are mssing a nice bug-list
12:33:16 <planetmaker> Alberth: but you likely can use like "hg log -k 'text'" or doesn't that work?
12:34:02 <Alberth> I think you want "give me all bugs about X"
12:34:18 <planetmaker> hg log -k 'X' then?
12:34:28 <Alberth> as a list of bugs, not as a list of files or revisions, imho
12:35:31 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps hg list bugs | grep X
12:35:52 <Alberth> that only matches titles :)
12:36:00 <planetmaker> hg log -I path/to/bugs -k 'X'
12:36:27 <Alberth> why are you interested in revisions?
12:37:03 <planetmaker> you mean as I use log which gives the revs? Well
12:37:08 * andythenorth finds some sprites DanMacK did for FISH
12:37:30 <planetmaker> But it gives a list of those bug-related revisions which touch 'X'
12:37:35 <planetmaker> Might give double hits, though
12:38:13 <planetmaker> indeed. That'd be painful sometimes
12:39:04 <planetmaker> 907ab57e04502afd ( 3) [resolved=fixed]: New issue
12:39:35 <planetmaker> artemis seems to provide a command for that, though ^
12:40:24 <Alberth> currently open issues work until you have 20+ or so :)
12:40:56 <Alberth> which may be sufficient for a small project though
12:42:06 <planetmaker> Most NewGRF projects I know have more ;-)
12:42:30 <planetmaker> but what makes it stop working beyond 20 open issues?
12:42:58 <andythenorth> what are you trying to do?
12:44:34 <Alberth> planetmaker: remembering what each issue is about gets more difficult with 20+ issues, or over longer periods of time
12:44:58 <Alberth> that's why you have a search
12:45:45 <Alberth> without it, you have to remember the details of each issue while reading the "all open issues" list
12:46:04 <Alberth> or am I missing something?
12:48:23 <andythenorth> are you reading locally, or via redmine or such?
12:48:45 * andythenorth has to read tickets every day for work and (re)prioritise them
12:48:55 <andythenorth> remembering the issue from the title is not ea
12:49:36 <Alberth> I mentioned that a distributed issue tracker would be useful this morning, and pm found a few :)
12:49:47 <andythenorth> interesting idea
12:49:54 <andythenorth> we use trac still at work
12:50:05 <andythenorth> it smells, but the opinion seems to be that they all smell, so why change :P
12:50:45 <Alberth> trac allows nice referencing to revisions, changesets and issues everywhere
12:53:23 <andythenorth> only if you've set it up correctly
12:53:33 <andythenorth> and not if you've used cluemapper
12:54:05 * andythenorth stops complaining and does some actual newgrf stuff
12:56:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the idea behind adding issues to repo is intriguing IMHO: currently all issues are "gone" when the DevZone is not reachable (or e.g. when you're offline). With them in the repo... they're everywhere where the repo is
12:57:30 <andythenorth> we tried designing a server / app / asset management system last year for people doing sysops
12:57:46 <andythenorth> which would tell you the log of changes made to configuration etc
12:57:56 <andythenorth> so at 2am you know what recently changed
12:58:12 <andythenorth> we ended up concluding that distributed VCS was easier than a custom app :P
13:01:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the coop servers use hg to track changes in /etc :-)
13:02:01 <andythenorth> do they log stuff like 'supervisor restarted me 17 times in 1 minute' ?
13:02:08 <andythenorth> which is more of a logging type task
13:02:19 <andythenorth> we were trying to blend automated logging and manual engineering logs
13:02:26 <planetmaker> that sounds like a thing logged in /var/log/messages
13:02:49 <planetmaker> thus it just needs proper grep-ing
13:03:54 <andythenorth> it was a bit more magical than that, but that's why it failed :)
13:04:19 <andythenorth> I should update nml
13:08:20 * andythenorth provides nml QA again :)
13:08:44 <planetmaker> too old python version?
13:09:08 <andythenorth> worked last week
13:09:15 <planetmaker> hm, that should not be too old
13:09:45 <planetmaker> I guess... Open an NML issue :-)
13:10:08 <andythenorth> wondering if I can patch a fix
13:11:24 <andythenorth> works if I remove one vehicle
13:15:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: More NewObjects :-)
13:17:19 <Alberth> andythenorth: I expect a bug in NML r1913
13:17:32 <andythenorth> it's interesting that only one vehicle causes it
13:17:55 <Alberth> the code is executed when you make an error somewhere
13:18:13 <Alberth> are you running NML tip?
13:21:20 <andythenorth> i.e. provides the correct error
13:21:23 <andythenorth> missing png in this case
13:21:54 <andythenorth> there you go, free testing by andythenorth :D
13:21:58 <andythenorth> I find most cases :P
13:22:55 <Alberth> including non-implemented areas :)
13:29:42 <FLHerne> What's the new ship you shipped?
13:34:45 <andythenorth> large coaster, 1934
13:34:57 <andythenorth> it's in the nml conversion of FISH, which is quite broken right now
13:37:31 <FLHerne> So you have things that don't start in 1870 now?
13:37:58 <andythenorth> more of those yes
13:38:05 <andythenorth> not a full set though
13:38:14 <andythenorth> ships are insanely hard to draw
13:38:24 <andythenorth> and my artist got driven away :(
13:38:33 <andythenorth> driven away / bored ;)
13:42:32 <FLHerne> Any earlier pax ships yet?
13:49:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: still no new DanMacK interest? :-(
13:52:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was wondering
13:53:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> if i have an empty map (semi-heightmap, just added canals)
13:53:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> why does editting newgrfs still possibly cause issues?
13:53:42 <andythenorth> you have zero grfs currently?
13:53:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka can we not define "blocks" that are not affected by newgrf changes that can be loaded as base?
13:54:11 <andythenorth> no grfs = no issues, if that's what you mean
13:54:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah this game has multiple and will crash due to them being altered (most likely, its a chrill patchpack game so im not 100% sure)
13:54:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> well lets say i have an empty heightmap
13:54:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> then i want to save it without grfs
13:54:56 <planetmaker> not feasible really
13:54:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> if i later on open it, add newgrfs and then start trees, towns & industries, it will still mark it as "changed" right?
13:55:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> well my point is that the newgrf-define is on a weird location
13:55:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> id put it as menu/required select on every newgame start
13:55:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> rather then a weird perma setting in the main menu
13:55:40 <andythenorth> yes, the game GUI is a mess :)
13:55:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you forgot something your screwed and have to redo it all
13:55:48 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: you're asking for a new scenario format basically
13:55:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah i guess so
13:55:57 <planetmaker> or a re-definition of heightmap. or similar
13:56:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> the current one stores only terrain height
13:56:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> some maps of mine use "dried up lakes"
13:56:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> but if i convert to heightmap to change the newgrfs then i have to re-dry alot of it
13:56:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar goes for the towns
13:57:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> i want to define a town spawnpoint
13:57:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> then on game-generation it can place whatever town @ whatever towngrf provided to generate the scenario
13:57:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> making the scenario re-usable by diff grf-sets instead of having to provide 1 gazillion permutations to every newgrfset out there
13:58:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> something like that
13:59:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> actually exactly that
13:59:56 <planetmaker> feel free to comment there :-)
14:00:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> reading the wiki now, it looks actually damn good
14:00:17 <planetmaker> (i hope Terkhen wouldn't mind). And yes... patch :-P
14:00:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> haha me and submitting a patch, you funny guy :)
14:00:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> the best "coding" i did was some minor java for a minor and SQL for wow-emulation
14:00:51 <Alberth> I have seen people starting to program to submit patches
14:01:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can read the C++ and understand what it does, but editting it is 100% not what i indend doing
14:01:18 * planetmaker waves hand at Alberth
14:01:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> specially not since ottd is a bit more complex then the wowemu setup (well for me its less understandable)
14:01:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> im more of a feedback / feature requester :P
14:01:43 <Alberth> oh, another one :) /me waves back to planetmaker
14:01:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> but that idea from Terkhen is actually what i meant
14:02:07 <andythenorth> I mean, once you used to poop yourself 3 times a day
14:02:14 <andythenorth> and you had to be fed in a high chair
14:02:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> you should be able to define basestuff and then regardless of newgrf's it should work (aka newgrf-related changes can be applied)
14:02:30 <andythenorth> if we talk ourselves out of change, then....blearch
14:02:38 <andythenorth> although andythenorth can't sing
14:02:41 <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: we know already
14:02:43 <andythenorth> and probably can't learn
14:02:58 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: I have patches, why can't you?
14:03:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> because you dont like my coding skillz :)
14:03:16 <andythenorth> and you like mine?
14:03:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> and seriously i dont have the time for learning cpp and the trunk layout
14:03:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> i already do some shit for wow-emulation and im 2 years behind on my bachelor civil engineering
14:04:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> im not a programmer, but who knows, if i get bored enough i might give it a try
14:04:05 <planetmaker> "screw the style and skills. Results are what count no matter the means" ;-)
14:04:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think i actually updated a patch once
14:04:10 <andythenorth> civils is over-rated anyway, I quit my civils degree
14:04:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka update the linechanges to trunk
14:04:24 <andythenorth> it's just concrete for hours, and soil mechanics
14:04:32 <planetmaker> I'm not a programmer by profession...
14:04:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> fluid mechanics are a bigger pain for me
14:04:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> as i suck in math
14:04:58 <andythenorth> at least fluid mechanics is all just based on constants that nobody understands
14:04:59 <planetmaker> and if you can do fluid and continuum mechanics, then you can also programme.
14:05:05 <planetmaker> You *need* actually be able to programme
14:05:14 <andythenorth> if you can do finite element analysis, you can programme
14:05:37 <andythenorth> if you can do second level differentiation you can programme
14:05:43 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: ODE? That's boring indeed. PDE! :-P
14:05:47 <andythenorth> geez, if you can do long division you can programme
14:05:53 * andythenorth can't do long division, never figured it
14:06:11 <andythenorth> most of my flash game programming involved tan / sin / cost, and not much else :P
14:06:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> planet yeah any DE for that matter
14:06:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> meh yeah reminds me
14:06:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> i still have to pass Computer Graphics & Computational Intelligence for my minor programming
14:07:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> i succesfully did Java & web/db design
14:07:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> db design was my best :P
14:07:18 <andythenorth> write a fuzzy-logic based newgrf graphics generator
14:07:22 <planetmaker> then write a game script or AI for OpenTTD, if you can choose the topic ;-)
14:07:22 <andythenorth> that learns based on player feedback
14:07:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant planet, it hardly get the stupid ideas anyway
14:07:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> swarm intelligence, backward propagation, neural networking
14:08:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> i took the minor for the subjects i passed
14:08:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> the 2 others are the crap i have to work on
14:08:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well first i must resit some civil subjects that are extremely boring
14:09:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> constructional safety (materials engineering 2.0) probability & statistics (epic fail with 1 point short) and numeretical methods for DEs (blegh)
14:12:42 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: the numerical methods actually need not be boring at all.
14:12:59 <planetmaker> I find it actually quite intriguing. And it gives you a good idea how trustworthy results can be :-)
14:17:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> well yeah i actually like the last
14:17:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> the matlab is fine
14:17:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can code/work with it
14:17:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> i just stink in the non-pc examn
14:17:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid Tayloring screws up
14:18:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka i know something is O(h^2) but i sometimes have a hard time proving it
14:18:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> same for the testequation
14:18:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> i know the results for euler foward, backward and modified eurler
14:18:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can work the methods
14:19:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i sometimes jsut cant get the proof done on a given initial value problem
14:19:31 * andythenorth liked the first year unit where we made bridges
14:19:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> i got an 8/10 for matlabbing it, i got a 2/10 for the examn on paper :P
14:19:44 <andythenorth> and the practical experiment making rivers in the sand tank
14:20:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> Spagetti bridges :)
14:20:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> epic yearly event :)
14:20:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> anyway its holiday so /care
14:20:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> also to get back on creating/writing a patch
14:20:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> i feel first patch should be trivial / small
14:21:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> not a huge rewrite of a base feature :P
14:21:27 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24400 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp table/strgen_tables.h): -Add: Plural 'names' to the output of strgen -export-plurals.
14:21:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> i actually did some CPP for the wow-emulator
14:22:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> but openttd uses more actual hexcodes from what i see
14:22:43 <planetmaker> hex codes? where?
14:28:07 <frosch123> is bibi blocksberg known in the english world? hex-hex?
14:35:14 <andythenorth> not known to me :)
14:38:10 <andythenorth> if we fixed vehicle smoke, I could try adding support for it to nml :)
14:38:37 <TrueBrain> with a big tnx to frosch123
14:38:40 <TrueBrain> WT3 has a nice update :)
14:38:46 <TrueBrain> lets hope people understand genders and plurals more now
14:46:38 <andythenorth> "nml is so bracing"
14:46:43 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You haven't drawn your concrete/cobbled/mud tiles for non-flat slopes at any point, have you? :P
14:47:07 * FLHerne gets out an image editor
14:47:07 <andythenorth> there are a *lot* of non-flat slopers
14:47:12 <andythenorth> there's only one flat tile
14:47:22 <andythenorth> you'll need about 16 non-flat slope tiles
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14:47:59 <FLHerne> Hmm. Moved to 'long-term ideas' then
14:48:26 <FLHerne> No slipways in other angles, either?
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15:56:34 <andythenorth> why is vehicle current_speed expressed in m/s
15:56:44 <andythenorth> I can convert to that I guess
15:57:20 * andythenorth needs an mph to m/s converter :P
15:57:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: NML knows units
15:57:54 <andythenorth> in a switch block?
15:58:02 <planetmaker> I guess not there (yet).
15:58:53 <andythenorth> (speed * 1609) / 360 or something
16:00:51 <frosch123> i thought i read a commit message about units being supported in switches
16:01:43 <andythenorth> nmlc: "fish.nml", line 1065: Using a unit is in switch-ranges is not (temporarily) not supported
16:02:21 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4.46944444444
16:04:50 <andythenorth> ach my maths is off
16:05:47 <andythenorth> 10 mph = 16090 meters per hour
16:05:58 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 26.8166666667
16:06:08 <andythenorth> @calc 26.82 / 60
16:09:19 <andythenorth> hydrofoils work again (rise out of the water as they go faster)
16:20:48 <andythenorth> making stuff is fun
16:22:06 <Alberth> code looks very scary
16:24:29 <andythenorth> mostly it's just maths
16:24:46 <andythenorth> I could abstract some of it away to the vehicle class
16:24:55 <andythenorth> but then you have to go look up abstractions to read it :P
16:25:12 <andythenorth> rock > andy < hard place
16:33:13 <Alberth> use the rock to beat the hard place to something softer ?
16:33:58 <andythenorth> or beat the rock on the hard place until it breaks :P
16:34:27 <Alberth> and if very very very lucky, you break both :D
16:39:13 <Alberth> that would be extremely unfortunate
16:47:16 <andythenorth> another ship sorted
16:47:42 <andythenorth> wish I could diff the resulting action 0 props :P
16:47:54 <andythenorth> I have no idea if I'm introducing bugs to the basic properties
16:54:45 <andythenorth> also, SSD increases battery life insanely
16:55:35 <andythenorth> they were copied from FIRS but not used
16:55:43 <andythenorth> you have storage tanks (used a lot in FIRS)
16:55:58 <andythenorth> and then staithes for sand / clay / stone
16:57:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> DWE tiles have them in use
16:57:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> or similar, they use wooden sidings
16:57:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> or ground-dikes
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17:08:48 * andythenorth finds that a lot of spritesets have to be added when using nml
17:08:57 <andythenorth> which is a lot of identifiers to write :P
17:09:01 <andythenorth> am I doing it wrong?
17:09:17 <andythenorth> e.g. three load states means three spritesets
17:09:51 <Eddi|zuHause> my spritesets are autogenerated :)
17:10:10 <andythenorth> BANDIT ones are too
17:10:20 <andythenorth> can't be bothered to figure out what's generic
17:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i generate a tree (or non-cyclic graph) of switches, and then name my spritesets <vehicleid>_<X>_<Y>_<Z> where X, Y and Z are the branch numbers of each switch
17:19:38 <andythenorth> you are smarter than me :)
17:27:48 * andythenorth should probably have encouraged Zx more about his degree :P
17:28:07 <andythenorth> but all the civil engineers I met during my degree hated it :P
17:43:31 <andythenorth> what do we think about sound effects for ships?
17:43:36 <andythenorth> as I am about to code the damn things :P
17:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know anything about ship sounds
17:45:15 <M1zera> all you need to know is "bhooooooooooooooooo" :-)
17:45:16 <andythenorth> there are two in the base set iirc?
17:45:23 <andythenorth> I did this for nfo FISH
17:45:29 <andythenorth> I just wonder if it was worth it
17:45:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24401 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt lithuanian.txt):
17:45:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by RabbRubbish
17:45:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 7 changes by telk5093
17:45:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 25 changes by Stabilitronas
17:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the bigger the ship the louder the horn! :p
17:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid you'll have to provide different samples for that :)
17:54:43 <andythenorth> there's probably a pure nml way to do this right?
17:54:44 <andythenorth> sound_effect: ${('SOUND_SHIP_HORN','SOUND_FERRY_HORN')[vehicle.default_cargo=='PASS']};
17:55:21 <andythenorth> ternary operator?
17:56:03 <andythenorth> but I don't know how I'd get the vehicle's default cargo in an action 0 context :P
17:57:38 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: NML allows to specify a sound volume, but I'm too lazy right now if that's a default feature or emulated by NML with duplicated and modified sounds in the GRF.
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17:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: doesn't sound like a decision that should be made at runtime...
17:59:00 <andythenorth> no, compile time indeed
17:59:16 <andythenorth> the python works fine, just wondered if nml had a way...
17:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ternary operator is runtime
18:00:07 * andythenorth moves on to automagic cost setting
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18:31:01 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Hyronymus was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Hyronymus> ~0~
18:31:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: remember what newgrf hyro wanted to upload to bananas with translated readmes and such?
18:33:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas has a new feature! :o
18:36:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> Assertation failed at line 341 of ..\src\linkgraph.cpp: source_flows.empty()
18:37:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> can that be caused by newgrfs or is that actually bad code
18:37:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> chrill patchpack
18:37:46 <frosch123> looks cargodist related
18:39:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah thats my point
18:39:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> i know there are newgrf changes though
18:39:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> but this error is most frequent popper, and i think its related to the patchpack, and not to the changes
18:40:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> was emergency save so cant recall the full report, i can get original(previous similar one) if it helps
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18:45:47 <frosch123> if your newgrf changes imposed changes to cargos, industries or vehicle capacities, i can very well imagine them causing trouble for cargodist
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19:11:41 <Elukka> i haven't had any trouble using cargodist with any number of vehicle sets and FIRS, though i usually have it off for industries
19:12:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> frosch123 then i blame newgrfchanges
19:12:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> roma loaded ECS on existing scenario/heightmap i believe
19:12:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> hence i asked for the new scenario save format earlier today
19:13:00 <Elukka> oh, we're talking about changes to newgrfs as a whole aren't we
19:13:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> the wiki suggestion is honestly a good setup for scenario's / heightmap
19:22:49 <Terkhen> don't forget to comment in the forum thread if you think of any improvements or problems with the format :)
19:23:58 * Terkhen hopes to have time and the desire to code this summer
19:24:19 <Alberth> weather too good to code? :)
19:26:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> for towns i suggest to just give spawnpoint+size
19:26:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i think that the format has that
19:27:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> not sure about scaling though
19:27:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> but thats heightmap related
19:27:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> and we can already scale them to a certain level
19:27:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> going to much on it ruins the heightmap usually
19:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: can't imagine anything "good" about summer-weather in spain :p
19:27:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> and on cpp with extra heightlevel it always seems flat to me
19:28:22 <Terkhen> Alberth: enough free time to get bored of procrastination and games, which is what I mostly do after work nowadays
19:28:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> but Terkhen your final format can be used with any newgrfset right?
19:28:48 <Alberth> Terkhen: coding is also a game :p
19:28:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> even diff industries/townbuildings?
19:28:54 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: the idea is that newgrfs are not contemplated at all by the format
19:29:03 <Terkhen> townbuildings are not considered at all
19:29:07 <Terkhen> and right now the industry layer is missing
19:29:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was majorly annoyed by newgrfs causing crashes in scenarios i edit
19:29:20 <Terkhen> because it would need more thinking :)
19:29:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka sometimes i make a scenario 4-5x the same just so i can replay it with diff newgrfs
19:29:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> and thats a pain
19:29:56 <Terkhen> that's exactly the reason for making a new scenario format
19:30:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> also imo the main-menu gui is wrong (newgrf selections should be obligatory part of starting a newgame) but thats a diff story
19:30:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen i agree, it looked really good
19:30:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> for objectfiles
19:30:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you have multiple objects they all go in 1 file
19:31:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka all towns into 1 towns file, where creation identifier is linked to the town file?
19:31:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> [town1] town1data [town2] town2data
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19:32:38 <Terkhen> each layer goes to a single file
19:33:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> what about industry then
19:33:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> i see you mentioned complicated
19:33:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> thats i recon due to newgrf's
19:33:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe you can make it switch-case depending
19:33:55 <Terkhen> how would you identify industries in a newgrf independent way?
19:34:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> by only defining WHERE it should be placed and not WHAT should be placed?
19:34:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka define X fee tiles for the industry
19:34:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you define just enough space for a coalmine
19:34:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> but not enough for something else
19:34:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> then it spawns there
19:34:48 <Terkhen> that's almost random, there is almost no difference with not having any industry data :)
19:35:02 <Alberth> "enough space" is already newgrf specific
19:35:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah your right Alberth
19:35:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> i usually have random industries anyway
19:35:32 <Alberth> place + desired input + desired output cargoes?
19:35:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> its towns/terrain that is the biggest pain to do
19:35:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> industries are less of a pain for me
19:36:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe allow 3 base-sets to be defined
19:36:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka change industry/cargo newgrfs into basesetlike status
19:36:20 <Terkhen> output cargoes are also newgrf dependent
19:36:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> instead of baseset add [industry] where whoever gives a newgrf has to at least provide 3-4 default types?
19:36:51 <Alberth> FIRS coal != default coal?
19:37:13 <Terkhen> it might be in that particular case, but the specs allow different types of coal
19:37:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah industries for me are the lesser issue
19:37:19 <Terkhen> or industries producing different cargos
19:37:26 <Terkhen> or different industries producing the same cargos
19:37:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> the major ones are roads, towns, canals/rivers etc
19:37:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe tfor the industry layer add a specifier
19:38:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka must use this grf to generate the industry
19:38:04 <Alberth> Terkhen: cargo1, cargo2, etc then, where you can pick the actual cargo :)
19:38:10 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: that defeats the point of the new format
19:38:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> well as i said, for me its important that towns/roads & canals are there
19:38:28 * Terkhen 's plan goes along industry classes and industry labels
19:38:33 <Terkhen> but I have not thought much about it
19:38:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> as most my changes are in those
19:38:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> trees as well ofc
19:38:45 <Terkhen> if I manage to implement everything else I'm happy already
19:38:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah was bout to say
19:38:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> just getting the rest would be the main objective
19:39:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> also by making roads a 9 pixel block you get a huge road-layer image when playing big maps (2kx2k+)
19:40:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> 2048x2048 px heightmap results into a 6144*6144 roadmap?
19:40:51 <Terkhen> 6144*6144*4 is still relatively small
19:40:56 <Terkhen> IIRC it had four colours
19:42:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was about to say, cant you make it 2048x2048 as well but use colors for the 9 possible road combinations on tile?
19:43:16 <Terkhen> do the math, the result in used bytes is about the same
19:43:31 <Terkhen> and we also would like to keep the image layers as human readable as possible
19:44:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> 9 options, 9 pixels
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19:44:31 <Supercheese> Forwards-compatible with 45-degree roads? :P
19:44:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> or mip-map whatever
19:44:36 <Alberth> Terkhen: make the other images also 3x3 pixels per tile?
19:45:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen maybe add optional railway layer? or does that break newgrf again?
19:45:33 <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: scenarios don't have company stuff :)
19:45:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> old game had "scenario-saves"
19:45:48 <Terkhen> it would complicate things, though
19:45:52 <Terkhen> (the easier overlaying thing)
19:45:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> schotland 1945 & the desert one
19:45:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> but they were saves ofc
19:46:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> airports in case we ever get town-owned-airports of the ground?
19:46:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> (also why was that not possible again?)
19:46:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> town-owned-stations in general for that matter
19:46:40 <Alberth> probably due to blocking
19:46:47 <Alberth> just like infra sharing
19:46:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> ah nvm it requires the non-trunked IS sharing
19:47:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> is-sharing is epic though
19:47:40 <Alberth> if you have co-operative players, yeah
19:48:13 <Alberth> yet you already see havoc at unsupervised MP games without IS
19:48:22 <Terkhen> I'll gladly let whoever codes IS the town stations in extended heightmap problems :)
19:48:24 <Alberth> imagine the mess if you add IS :)
19:48:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> for me is isnt that much of an issue but yeah
19:49:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> i play IS coop though :P
19:49:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen maybe change Tropical Layer to "climate layer"
19:49:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> as then you can also integrate snowline etc for artic
19:50:37 <Terkhen> snowline is part of the general data
19:50:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> treeline (no trees in colored parts?)
19:50:50 <Terkhen> but I agree, the name could be changed for "future compatibility"
19:50:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> what in tropical layer isnt
19:52:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> also for the industry thing
19:52:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe make it optional param
19:53:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> if not provided then manual place your shizzles
19:53:14 <Terkhen> for industries I want a single, universal solution
19:53:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> if provided baseset then you can use pre-placed
19:53:18 <Terkhen> universal == newgrf agnostic
19:53:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah thats gonna be an issue with newgrfs changing them up so much
19:54:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> there is no standard, if you play with only certain ECS vectors or FIRS you have completely different industries then baseset
19:54:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> so yeah, tricky indeed
19:54:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> i assume trees are part of terrain
19:54:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> as we also have tree-changing-grfs :P
19:55:01 <Terkhen> ideally, the newgrf agnostic method would give great results if you use the same industry newgrf set, and not so great results if you change it
19:55:11 <Terkhen> I don't think it's possible to do something better than that
19:55:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz fair enough
19:55:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> id put my signature up for anything that gives me the option of changing newgrfs for scenarios i play
19:55:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> usually different townsets/roadsets/bridgesets
19:56:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe save industries on diff file/object that can be removed/purged if loaded with non-linked file?
19:56:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if i create scn on ECS but dont load it, it has 0 industries and does not error about it
19:57:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can manually place/fund/whatever industries if i truely need them?
19:57:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> new format will require the newgrf-selection to be a primairy part before playing/opening the scenario :P
19:57:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka the menu gui revamp someone mentioned
19:58:32 <Terkhen> since the new scenario format also lets you decide which settings and advanced settings you want to use
19:58:40 <Terkhen> you could recreate industries in any way you want
19:59:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah currently reloading newgrfs in a running game is horribad
19:59:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> so the loading/starting a scenario with newformat needs a obligatory selection ofc
19:59:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> but other then that its a great suggestion
19:59:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant wait to see it work :P
19:59:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> wish i could help, but i cant code for shit :)
20:02:00 <Terkhen> the patch itself is relatively simple, Alberth already coded the complicated part
20:02:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen what is needed?
20:02:36 <Terkhen> what is difficult is that it is quite big, and thinking what is needed to code and how to split it in small, manageable parts will be a PITA
20:02:44 <Terkhen> so... what is needed is time :)
20:04:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P good old time :(
20:07:43 <NGC3982> hey, a shot in the dark
20:08:09 <NGC3982> used in the older british language
20:08:27 <NGC3982> what does it mean? i fail to find references on it.
20:08:36 <NGC3982> except eddie izzard in oceans' thirteen.
20:19:49 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
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20:43:39 * FLHerne gets stuck on multitile objects
20:44:11 <FLHerne> Anyone know how which bit of documentation I need to look at?
20:48:49 <FLHerne> I sort of guessed that bit. Looked at Spriteset, Spritelayout and Item, but can't find what I'm looking for :-(
20:52:03 <frosch123> there is a property to set the size
20:52:06 <frosch123> and number of views
20:52:26 <frosch123> and there is a variable for switches to make stuff depend on the position within the object
20:52:54 <FLHerne> Ah. The third bit is what I need :-)
20:55:46 <FLHerne> So I give relative_pos to a switch block to specify which graphics are drawn for each tile?
20:56:24 <FLHerne> Or did I completely misread that? :P
21:09:36 *** kkimlabs_ has joined #openttd
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22:31:09 * FLHerne tries to decide between NML and sleep :P
22:32:10 *** kkimlabs_ has joined #openttd
22:34:07 * planetmaker suggests sleep and NML. In that order ;-)
22:35:18 <FLHerne> Ah well, tomorrow's Sunday :P
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22:37:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
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23:55:00 <FLHerne> Seems odd to make lemonade in the middle of the night :P
23:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> how does lemonade depend on time zones?
23:56:05 <FLHerne> I just can't imagine wanting to drink lemonade while sitting at a keyboard in a pitch-dark room at 1 am :P
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