IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-13
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07:19:08 <dihedral> morning, Terkhen, and planetmaker
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07:28:32 <NGC3982> did anyone of you read abbott's flatland while in school? :)
07:29:02 <NGC3982> it's certainly the first book that comes to mind when playing ttd..
07:32:43 * Alberth invents bridges for NGC3982
07:34:19 <Alberth> hmm, can you disable bridges and tunnels? that could be an interesting twist :)
07:37:44 <Alberth> wow, so many published versions :)
07:41:27 <NGC3982> a 64*64 game with no signals, no bridges or tunnels
07:58:10 <Alberth> sounds like a truck game :p
08:07:13 <NGC3982> im exploring the possibility to run a no-time server game
08:07:36 <NGC3982> where time does pass, but the years does not progress.
08:08:34 <Terkhen> you can increase the cost of bridges, I'm not sure about tunnels
08:08:43 <dihedral> <Alberth> hmm, can you disable bridges and tunnels? <- ouch :-D
08:09:10 <NGC3982> it sounds grf-makeable?
08:09:14 <NGC3982> at least the bridge-cost.
08:09:45 <Alberth> bridges do I think, just make them at most 2 tiles long
08:10:04 <Alberth> which is not entirely disabling, but useless enough :p
08:10:33 <Alberth> I don't know what you can do with tunnels in newgrf
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08:20:25 <planetmaker> tunnels are not newgrf-able except the looks
08:23:45 <Terkhen> true, you can set them to useless lenghts
08:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> why not allow "tunnel types" the same as bridgetypes? (with looks, length, speedlimit, etc.)
08:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> internally they're the same anyway
08:24:50 <Terkhen> I suppose that the settings do not allow 0, though
08:25:28 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: and air drag modifiers
08:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> bridges also have an introduction year
08:27:49 <Alberth> not needed for tunnels as long tunnels cost too much in the beginning :)
08:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> cost is a really bad balancing method in this game :p
08:31:22 <NGC3982> so, tunnels are 'un-prohibitable' in that sence?
08:34:07 <Alberth> make it at sea level, and forbid terra forming :)
08:34:19 <Terkhen> I don't remember a tunnel basecost
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08:41:17 <Hirundo> Terkhen: there certainly is one
08:42:21 <Terkhen> then it is possible to "forbid" tunnels that way
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08:47:46 <peter1138> There is no need for the lavish celebrations.
08:47:56 <NGC3982> celebrations of what?
08:53:51 <Alberth> I am sorry, but your manager failed to inform us of your intention to arrive here at this hour. Had we known, we would have given you a more warm welcome.
08:53:51 <Alberth> None the less, welcome to our humble establishment, I hope you have a pleasant stay here.
08:54:22 <peter1138> You see, I have just stated that such action is unnecessary at this current time.
08:55:35 <peter1138> Cakes, and indeed other perishable foodstuffs, can be purchased for very reasonable prices from your local supermarket.
08:56:05 <NGC3982> dont you dismantle the soul of NGC made cake ;_;.
08:56:20 * NGC3982 makes a cake for his employees all the time
08:56:34 <NGC3982> it's a fun way of celebrating non-relevant dates and stuff.
08:57:20 <NGC3982> at the swedish "teeth brushing" day.
08:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you brush your teeth once a year?
08:58:06 <NGC3982> at the international chocolate day
08:58:20 <peter1138> NGC3982, I wish to employ you.
08:58:36 <Alberth> NGC3982: do you have enough days in a year?
08:58:41 * NGC3982 is usually the employer.
08:58:51 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: NGC3982 does.
08:59:09 <NGC3982> for instance, i could have made a cake so celebrate lots of stuff today
08:59:24 <NGC3982> the coronation of alexander the third
08:59:44 <Markk> Do you want to make your employees fat?
08:59:45 <NGC3982> or the treaty of berlin
08:59:56 <NGC3982> i want them stuck in their chairs.
09:01:01 <NGC3982> actually, in an empirical fashion - cakes is a great loyality-increase per currency spent.
09:01:26 <NGC3982> i actually believe i can measure it statisticly.
09:01:42 <NGC3982> removing the coffee machine made a 15% change in sale statistics, for instance.
09:01:50 * NGC3982 loves call center data management.
09:03:05 <NGC3982> Markk: did you install supreme commander?
09:03:21 <NGC3982> i havent tried it yet.
09:03:34 <Markk> I had stuff to do last night.
09:04:54 <NGC3982> it was just fun to antagonize you :p
09:06:21 <Markk> I get a notice in my phone ever time someone hilights me.
09:06:32 <Markk> (But with a spamfilter, so no more than once a minute)
09:06:48 * NGC3982 plans a devious script.
09:13:07 <peter1138> 1440 notices a day...
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09:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> why is it whenever i play a "random" culture in widelands, i get imperium?
10:01:59 <__ln__> zomg, there are cultures in ottd now
10:05:19 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: will I lose much time of my life if I try that game?
10:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if you liked settlers, possibly :)
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14:35:43 * Alberth adds a few trains to the channel
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15:18:50 <Bolsiq> i didnt expect so many people here ;)
15:19:12 <Alberth> it's awfully quiet for that many people :)
15:19:32 <Alberth> if you'd put them all in one physical room, they'd make a lot more noise :)
15:21:02 <Bolsiq> or they would kill each other ;)
15:21:30 <planetmaker> we tested with a small sub-sample. Nothing of that sort happend. Rather pie eating
15:22:26 <Alberth> Bolsiq: nah, OpenTTD is a family friendly game, no need to carry weapons here
15:22:59 <planetmaker> except our fighter plane and attack helicopter ;-)
15:23:06 <V453000> he didnt say anybody kills anyone with weapons? :)
15:23:24 <Alberth> planetmaker: ssshhhttt ! don't tell about our backup :p
15:23:59 <Bolsiq> you can destroy cars usign trains ;)
15:24:44 <Alberth> I'd be destroying my own road vehicles, that's not smart as tycoon :)
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16:55:18 * Rubidium wonders whether freerct has 'security checkpoints' at the entrance of the park
17:00:58 <planetmaker> they probably have land-air-missile launch sites ;-)
17:02:54 <planetmaker> and marines at the checkpoints, of course
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17:08:57 <andythenorth> shall we fix rivers?
17:09:48 <andythenorth> 1. replace river if bulldozed
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17:10:35 <andythenorth> 2. measure length of river when constructing (pathfinder probly knows); divide by 5 to get n tiles; from first coast tile, work backwards for n tiles, making river wider
17:10:58 <andythenorth> Alberth had ideas for 1 maybe?
17:14:16 * andythenorth ponders redrawing everything for 2x zoom
17:14:29 <andythenorth> but then my eyes will be screwed by drawing :P
17:14:36 <andythenorth> then I'll need 4x zoom :P
17:19:32 <Terkhen> it would probably be simpler to disable bulldozing rivers completely
17:19:44 <Terkhen> as Yet Another Setting
17:20:06 <andythenorth> it would break overbuilding with canals
17:20:11 <andythenorth> but that's broken anyway :P
17:20:54 <andythenorth> stupidly expensive to overbuild river with canal
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17:32:49 <FLHerne> If so, how? If not, how do I define multiple near-identical spritelayout/switch/item blocks?
17:34:11 <andythenorth> you can do spriteset templates
17:34:15 <andythenorth> what languages do you know / line?
17:35:45 <FLHerne> Various kinds of BASIC, a little C. Not a serious programmer :P
17:36:06 <andythenorth> you can use the c-pre-processor
17:36:33 <FLHerne> I tried to put spritelayout blocks in templates, but it didn't work :-(
17:36:43 <andythenorth> if you use CPP, you will get support here
17:36:48 <andythenorth> depending on who is in channel
17:37:04 <andythenorth> if the people who can help are not here, you may get laughed at and told you are using the wrong tool
17:37:11 <andythenorth> I would use python, but you'd have to learn new things
17:37:54 <Terkhen> besides that, you can also use the openttdcoop devzone makefile framework, which has support for CPP
17:39:20 <andythenorth> templating with python is insanely easy, but seems to have a fear factor
17:39:26 <FLHerne> So at least I haven't created an entirely unnecessary problem for myself :P
17:39:53 <FLHerne> If someone's already considered it, there must be some valid reason to encounter it :D
17:40:14 <andythenorth> FIRS and OpenGFC extras are templated with CPP
17:40:19 <andythenorth> BANDIT and FISH are python
17:40:29 <andythenorth> CETS is a different sort of python
17:46:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24397 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
17:46:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093
17:46:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 96 changes by Tucalipe
17:46:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:46:03 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
17:51:06 <Alberth> FLHerne: alternatively, you can extend NML to have template support :p
17:51:21 <Alberth> Rubidium: freerct has no gates at all, currently
17:51:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: I agree with Terkhen, make them non-deletable
17:53:50 <andythenorth> so how to handle canals case?
17:54:27 <Terkhen> nothing could be built over rivers
17:55:40 <Alberth> river and canal are both water, I fail to see a problem in keeping rivers, tbh
17:56:08 <andythenorth> no bulldoze = no lock building
17:56:13 <TWerkhoven> would that also prohibit terraforming if it affects a river-tile?
17:56:15 <andythenorth> no lock building = no river transport
17:56:56 <andythenorth> otherwise I'm +1
17:57:18 <Alberth> how is bulldoze == lock building?
17:57:42 * andythenorth should read the code
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17:58:05 <Alberth> maybe the code is wrong :)
17:58:35 <andythenorth> building a lock on river costs (destruction cost + lock cost) so I assume it calls some destruction related stuff
17:59:04 <andythenorth> my point being only, we might need to special case / fix locks
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17:59:49 <Alberth> I would expect so, you'd need to check for water being a river somewhere
18:02:17 <andythenorth> FLHerne: templating repeating code with the python built-in templater is trivial, I am reading my own tutorial to remember how :P
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18:17:19 <pasky> hmm, I'm trying to play with ECS but it's a bit painful since it requires building huge swathes of supply chains pretty much at once - is that just how it is or is there any trick to it?
18:18:35 <Alberth> industries like sandpit provide cargo to start, don't they?
18:18:54 <Alberth> it has been several years since I last played ECS
18:22:10 <andythenorth> what can I complain about today? :)
18:22:10 <andythenorth> I fixed my python, so that's no good for complaints
18:22:34 <Alberth> you mentioned rivers already too
18:23:07 <Alberth> do you have thoughts about the pyramid thingie?
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18:26:40 <andythenorth> when I've written more code
18:26:47 <andythenorth> it's a silly pointless project though :)
18:27:20 <pasky> Alberth: yes, in the beginning, getting money is fine with small circuits like coal or sand + coal; but once one wants to involve factories, many things must come together at once... but i just figured that i should start by doing multiple circuits of different raw materials and grow from there up instead of looking at a factory and trying to satisfy its dependencies
18:27:52 <Alberth> pasky: ok, I never got that far
18:30:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm considering I can 'just' provide a browser view on the app that renders the grf, then pushes it back out as a tar :P
18:39:35 *** daniel_ is now known as Runner11
18:49:19 <Alberth> tbh, I still don't understand how you connect a browserto the configuration process, but maybe that's just me
18:49:47 <andythenorth> tbh, it's probably just me :P
18:50:42 <andythenorth> I'm not even sure that editing config data in the browser is easier than editing in text editor
18:52:01 <Alberth> depends on the data and the editor :p
18:57:32 * andythenorth has learnt some things about SSD failure rates and is backing up
19:07:55 <Belugas> #Old man take a look at my life
19:08:01 <Belugas> #I'm a lot like you were
19:10:26 <andythenorth> and the silver spoon
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19:43:55 <andythenorth> "Welcome to Pyramid. Sorry for the convenience." :P
19:48:54 <Alberth> it seems pretty simple for making a website
19:49:12 <Alberth> within certain boundaries probably
19:49:58 <andythenorth> I just discovered this buildout on github, which simplified install
19:51:44 * andythenorth considers for bed
19:51:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I sent you a very incomplete CHIPS-object grf. Thanks to you and Alberth for prompting me into trying to be productive :D
19:52:10 <andythenorth> did you try templating? ;)
19:52:42 <FLHerne> I did, but failed :-( Maybe tomorrow
19:53:20 <andythenorth> how do I find objects in game?
19:54:03 <FLHerne> Just realised they need a flag to allow overbuilding
19:54:05 <andythenorth> objects don't overbuild? :o
19:54:26 <FLHerne> Which is the correct order of comments there?
19:54:26 <andythenorth> ok, so they build on corner-coasts, I see why you want them
19:54:47 <andythenorth> FLHerne: ignore overbuilding comment from me, I didn't know if was a flag
19:55:25 <andythenorth> what do the new object gui buttons do?
19:55:33 <andythenorth> there's a grid of 4 below the list
19:56:07 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can build bridges over them, too :-)
19:57:16 <andythenorth> they look like they might select orientations or such
19:57:23 <andythenorth> selecting one changes the available objects
19:57:36 * andythenorth fails to understand new objects tbh
19:57:51 <andythenorth> but this grf looks nice ;)
19:59:38 <FLHerne> They should be orientations
19:59:56 <FLHerne> But different orientations of flat tiles look the same anyway
20:00:17 <FLHerne> Added overbuilding flag now :-)
20:12:26 <Terkhen> good night andythenorth
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20:28:18 <Supercheese> Oooh, CHIPS tiles as objects? Very much want
20:33:03 <Supercheese> Need any coding help? Menial tasks you want to outsource to a cheap laborer? :P
20:36:44 <FLHerne> I'm still figuring out how to do the menial tasks :P
20:36:59 <FLHerne> Seems an easy first grf :-)
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20:53:01 <Chris_Booth> fuck me, how are you?
21:07:07 <dihedral> no thank you - but i am well :-D
21:08:14 <Chris_Booth> not in that way Mr dihedral
21:09:20 <Chris_Booth> have you been hiding from the openttd world?
21:09:29 <dihedral> i have been very busy
21:10:26 <Chris_Booth> nice to hear, last 18 months have been the same for me sadly
21:23:38 <Supercheese> So, I'm wanting to start up a non-OTTD-related project on Google Code; I've never used any version control system before, and Subversion, Mercurial, and Git are offered. Which should I choose?
21:24:30 <Supercheese> That's one vote for Git
21:25:22 <Supercheese> One for mercurial...
21:25:29 <dihedral> and that will not work ;-)
21:25:41 <dihedral> asking us what we prefer
21:25:44 <Chris_Booth> dude Git has way more support for novice developers
21:26:23 <dihedral> you will get one opinion more than active people in this channel ... at least
21:26:39 <dihedral> hg and git are very similar
21:27:03 <glx> but on windows hg works better
21:27:43 <dihedral> glx, still? as far as i could say, git works ok now under windows, too
21:28:03 <Chris_Booth> I also suggest investing in a Mac
21:28:08 <glx> last time I tried it worked but was very slow
21:28:20 <Supercheese> I do not want any Apple computer, thanks
21:29:04 <Supercheese> ^ that, more or less
21:29:18 <Nat_aS> remember when they were the heroic underdogs?
21:29:22 * Chris_Booth hide from that haters
21:29:34 <Nat_aS> now they are just professional patent trolls.
21:30:35 <Chris_Booth> now they make the most ruggid laptops
21:30:47 <Supercheese> Oh, well there's a page on Google code itself "ChoosingAVersionControlSystem"
21:30:55 <Supercheese> Wasn't well advertised
21:31:01 <Nat_aS> I'm pretty sure Panasonic's toughbooks are the most rugged.
21:31:02 <FLHerne> They always made the best laptops :P
21:31:19 <Nat_aS> but if you are talking form an average consumer standpoint
21:31:36 <Nat_aS> I will admit there aluminum shells are quite snazzy
21:31:41 <Nat_aS> even if it jacks up the price
21:31:44 * FLHerne has working Apple laptops from 1994 to 2005 :P
21:31:54 <FLHerne> They just don't break :-)
21:32:21 <glx> the battery is dead way before ;)
21:32:32 <glx> (and it's not replacable)
21:32:37 <Nat_aS> I'm currently using an Asus G1 from 2007
21:32:43 <Nat_aS> which is absoltly broken
21:33:11 <Nat_aS> but it's cheaper, and has more power than a comparable machine from the same year by apple
21:33:14 <FLHerne> glx: It's replaceable on all the ones I have...
21:33:18 <Nat_aS> and that's what's important.
21:33:49 <Nat_aS> you can pay for aluminum, I'll spend my money on an actual computer.
21:34:28 <FLHerne> Nat_aS: Depends, really. They cost more, but last longer. My G4 still outperforms some modern netbooks :D
21:35:07 <Nat_aS> the definition of some includes shitty HPs
21:35:12 <FLHerne> Nat_aS: All but the fancy AMD Fusion/Dual-core Atom ones
21:35:15 <glx> now apple tends to use glue everywhere
21:35:18 <Nat_aS> I buy a new laptop every few years to stay up to date.
21:35:46 <FLHerne> glx: Only the Airs and retina MBP are non-replaceable, IIRC?
21:35:54 <Supercheese> Nice, 5GB hosting free
21:36:25 <glx> FLHerne: yes but as users seems to like those, the next ones will be similar
21:37:50 <FLHerne> glx: Unfortunately so. I haven't bought an Intel Mac yet, and I don't intend to... :-(
21:38:52 <Nat_aS> anyways, having Apple software tied to the hardware removes any value from it
21:39:07 <Nat_aS> it dosn't matter how sturdy it is, it will allways be a mac
21:39:17 <FLHerne> From the software or hardware?
21:39:42 <FLHerne> Windows and Linux will both run fine on modern Macs :D
21:39:58 <FLHerne> Linux > OSX, definitely
21:40:02 <Nat_aS> I know that, but it's still only designed to work with apple hardware
21:40:17 <Nat_aS> whereas PCs are 100% modular and interchangeable.
21:40:28 <Nat_aS> you can build a PC in a cave with a box of scraps
21:40:36 <FLHerne> PC laptops aren't normally, though
21:40:54 <FLHerne> RAM and harddrive, but then that applies to most Apple ones too
21:41:04 <Nat_aS> you do have a fair point
21:41:22 <Nat_aS> but I'm still opposed to apple for reasons unrelated to there snazzy aluminum notebooks.
21:41:41 <glx> well Apple now solder RAM directly on motherboard
21:41:48 <Nat_aS> and I like being able to right click without having to attach a USB mouse :P
21:42:09 <FLHerne> Too much emphasis on 'thin' :-(
21:42:32 <Nat_aS> things being soddered directly onto the motherboard and then breaking requiring the whole thing to be replaced, is responsible for most laptop repairs for me
21:42:54 <Nat_aS> I don't know how they earn a profit if the whole motherborad gets replaced once a waranty cycle for me
21:43:13 <FLHerne> I'd be happy to buy a 2" thick laptop if it had a huge battery and standardised hardware :-)
21:43:21 <FLHerne> No-one sells them, though :-(
21:43:21 <glx> they don't replace the motherboard, they give you a new laptop
21:43:34 <Nat_aS> Small is nice, but if things are too thin, they become impractical
21:43:47 <Nat_aS> like my Android phone is wider at the top because of the antenna
21:44:11 <Nat_aS> the rest of the phone could be wider, but they just wanted it to be as thin as possible
21:44:24 <Nat_aS> but that means if it's laying flat, it's leaning away from you
21:44:49 <FLHerne> My PB1400 has hot-swappable floppy/zip/CD/battery/pen drawer, you can't get that any more either :P
21:45:17 <Nat_aS> i hate optical media so much
21:45:29 <Nat_aS> although laptops need more USB slots
21:45:34 <Nat_aS> why is the standard now three
21:45:48 <Nat_aS> I want a laptop with 6 slots dammit!
21:45:54 <glx> laptops often miss firewire too
21:46:06 <Nat_aS> I'd rather have lots of ports than an optical drive
21:46:09 <Supercheese> I don't think I've ever used firewire...
21:46:16 <Nat_aS> because then I can attatch an optical drive with one of them
21:46:39 <FLHerne> At least modern laptops have them... Who thought SCSI was a good idea for external connections on a laptop!? :o
21:46:48 <Nat_aS> optical drives are moving parts, which is bad for a portable device
21:47:23 <Nat_aS> I mean modern Hard drives are safe enough, but optical drives are still bulky and noisy
21:47:48 <dihedral> <glx> last time I tried it worked but was very slow <- it was not a repository on a network share, was it? :-P
21:48:11 <TWerkhoven> replace the optical drive with an extra hdd
21:48:43 <TWerkhoven> if your feeling adventurous
21:48:57 <TWerkhoven> or just loads of storage
21:49:12 <dihedral> TWerkhoven, raid 0 is the biggest crap ever!
21:49:35 <Nat_aS> when the waranty on my Vaio runs off I'll do that
21:49:51 <dihedral> i thought you might be :-D
21:49:56 <Nat_aS> one thing i don't like is how big it is
21:49:59 <TWerkhoven> not much redundant about it
21:50:06 <Nat_aS> I mean i like it when I sit down and have a numpad and wide screen
21:50:14 <Nat_aS> but I don't like it when I can't fit it in my backpack
21:50:26 <Nat_aS> oh well, my phone is faster than some laptops now
21:50:32 <Nat_aS> and I have my shitty netbook
21:50:55 <dihedral> i'd only go with ssd in a laptop currently
21:51:26 <Nat_aS> well it will be a while before I'm ready for a new computer, esp after getting this phone
21:51:28 <dihedral> i dislike too many turning things and noisy things in laptops
21:51:35 <Nat_aS> but I'm not sure what the peremeters will be
21:51:39 <Nat_aS> maybe no moving parts though
21:51:44 <Nat_aS> (well discounting the fan)
21:51:50 <Nat_aS> or maybe I'll try building a PC
21:52:13 <Nat_aS> I have no use for optical media though
21:52:32 <Nat_aS> I pirate all my movies and music, and get all my games from Steam
21:52:46 <Nat_aS> I only use disks for booting shit when things break
21:52:50 <Nat_aS> and I try a USB key first
21:53:53 <TWerkhoven> saves a lot of hassle with a cheap cd/dvd-r
21:54:02 <TWerkhoven> and drives not being able to read em
21:54:13 <Nat_aS> I want to see optical media die
21:54:38 <dihedral> i do not even have an optical drive
21:54:39 <Nat_aS> I wish Steve jobs had tried to kill it the same way he did with Floppies. flash on mobile devices, and right clicking
21:54:58 <Nat_aS> i mean the air dosn't have a optical drive
21:55:20 <Nat_aS> but if he didn't put those neat little slot loaders on everything
21:55:33 <Nat_aS> he could have pushed completly digital distribution
21:55:38 <Nat_aS> and people would have eaten it up
21:55:54 <Nat_aS> and now he's dead so he can't influence markets through sheer charisma.
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continue to next day ⏵
