IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-12
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02:57:23 <Billybobjoepants> ): no one here
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08:32:31 <arnold> hallo freunde. unser server läuft im web auf nen linux. wir versuchen hier seit ner stunde die mapsize zu ändern mit google & co. der will duie einfach nicht erhöhen von 256 auf 1024
08:32:42 <arnold> hat jemand iene idee ? kann doch nicht so tricky sein :/
08:33:44 <Alberth> when you speak English, more people will understand what you say :)
08:34:58 <arnold> hi :) i cant change the mapsize from 256 to 1024. linux webserver. we edit the openttd.cfg for example map_x = 10 .... but when we restart, the server will create a 256map :/
08:35:20 <Alberth> openttd writes the config on exit
08:35:56 <arnold> how can i setup a server (newgame) with a mapsize like 1024 (=10)
08:35:57 <Alberth> so editing while the server runs is a little useless :)
08:36:18 <arnold> i can use the command window .. ~ ?! right?
08:36:41 <Alberth> arnold: first shutdown the openttd program before you edit the config file
08:38:14 <Alberth> arnold: the usual way of doing things is to prepare a config file at a normal desktop game, that works much better than editing the file directly
08:38:28 <arnold> omg ... :D its work. my buddy has nerver stop the server. only edit, then restart :D
08:38:38 <arnold> now it works , thx :* ^^
08:39:23 <Alberth> that's what happens if you stop openttd from overwriting your careful edits :D
08:44:29 <arnold> ehy alberth, next one :)
08:45:02 <arnold> which configtext ist for the numbers of town. because, our new 1024map has a less number aof towns ^^
08:46:12 <Alberth> no idea, I am sure you can find it if you want, but instead make a good config file at a desktop game, and then copy the config file to the server
08:47:16 <arnold> now i must play. our boss is away .. big ttd officeparty :D
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09:40:19 <peter1138> When my boss is away they just piss of home early instead.
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10:10:36 <NGC3982> i cant stand business offices that cant keep control on employees.
10:11:38 * NGC3982 puts lots of time on keeping his employees occupied enough never have a reason to go home early.
10:12:32 * NGC3982 also needs to look at what he is writing before sending it, apparently.
10:12:44 * Warod believes the work must be interesting enough to keep people doing it!
10:13:22 <NGC3982> though, i fail to understand how a business can be profiting at all with systems that allow people to simply walk home unnoticed.
10:13:37 <NGC3982> it seems to say a fair bit about the effectiveness, at least.
10:15:30 <planetmaker> quite right comment, Alberth
10:15:50 <planetmaker> actually in all aspects :-P Including "too alien" ;-)
10:16:22 <Warod> NGC3982: Hmm? Stuff gets done so what's the problem? :P
10:16:55 <NGC3982> Warod: if 40% effective work gives fair profit, 80% should do more.
10:17:19 <NGC3982> Warod: dont you think? :)
10:17:26 <Warod> NGC3982: It's summer... do you think I get myself to the office? Haven't been at the office even once after my summer vacation ended nearly two weeks ago. :P
10:17:50 <Alberth> planetmaker: the hard part is however the "some macro expansion system" :)
10:17:54 <NGC3982> Warod: then i guess you have the privilegde to control your profit without presence.
10:17:57 <planetmaker> Alberth, you may (or may not) have noticed, that xotic made an m4nml system?
10:18:07 <NGC3982> Warod: and that is of course not the case in normal work > employee situations.
10:18:43 <planetmaker> yes... I'd have much more appreciation for it though, if he'd talk to me before re-writing newgrfs I'm part in, though :S
10:18:46 <Warod> NGC3982: I do most of the profitable deals and handle the difficult cases. :P
10:18:49 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: fyi; the /dev/random function worked out nicely, and fitted my experiment perfectly.
10:19:25 <planetmaker> and could at least feel like doing more than "accept or reject" the whole re-write
10:19:45 <planetmaker> thus I haven't quite replied to it at all so far... not good either
10:20:09 <Alberth> I fully agree, changing stuff without asking others is not good
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10:20:32 <planetmaker> it's not committed to the "official" repo. But still... lots of time gone into it
10:20:58 <Warod> NGC3982: Also.. I tend to be where I need to be. And office is hardly ever one of those places. ^^
10:21:03 <Alberth> say you have some trouble with the direction it is going?
10:21:57 <planetmaker> tbh, I've no clue really *which* he likes to take it. Thus I've more a problem of seeing any direction really... I see mostly a problem in communication
10:23:19 <planetmaker> and sadly I'm annoyed by it. Which makes me... not a nice person to communicate with then. Thus I remained silent so far. In order to not needlessly insult
10:23:51 <Alberth> a cautious PM asking for what direction it is going?
10:24:48 <planetmaker> yeah, I should do that
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10:44:28 <peter1138> Warod, exactly, they can do all the work from home.
10:45:37 <Alberth> who needs a HQ anyway :D
10:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to not get anything done at home...
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10:55:04 <Alberth> yeah, it makes it more complicated though, unfortunately
10:55:33 <Hirundo> I'm not sure if NML needs a full (token-level) macro processor
10:56:01 * planetmaker assigns task to Alberth ;-)
10:56:11 <NGC3982> Warod: well, i guess you are a supervisor?
10:56:19 <planetmaker> when will it be done? :-P
10:56:26 <Hirundo> Those already exist as cpp, m4, etc. rewriting them would be pointless
10:56:51 <Hirundo> I'm more thinking along the lines of parametrized 'item templates', like real sprite templates
10:57:15 <Alberth> 'cat' also already exists, yet you made an issue for including files :)
10:57:23 <planetmaker> that most likely hits home most cases, Hirundo
10:57:56 <Warod> NGC3982: Not really, no.
10:58:18 <Alberth> Yeah, I left open what kind of macro expansion you want; cpp is very general purpose and low-level, probably due to hysteric reasons
10:59:13 <Hirundo> basically you'd want the equivalent of C++ templates instead of C macros
11:00:14 <Alberth> template SOMENAME(PARAMS) { <aribtrary nml defs> } ?
11:00:39 <Alberth> and SOMENAME(1); SOMENAME(2); etc
11:01:14 <planetmaker> would be nice, if one could then also template switches with this means
11:01:56 <Alberth> just pick the non-terminal to be used between the curly brackets :) )
11:02:45 <planetmaker> which would imply that something like the cpp directive part1 ## part2 exists
11:03:30 <Alberth> why do you need that?
11:03:48 <Hirundo> IMO switches suck in general, they are very inconvenient for general programming work
11:03:50 <Alberth> (assuming names in a template are local)
11:03:51 <planetmaker> switches for different vehicles need different names in NML
11:05:08 <Alberth> planetmaker: ie do you need those names from outside the template?
11:05:27 <Hirundo> I have been thinking about namespaces to solve those naming issues
11:05:38 <planetmaker> well. The template must expand to different switch names when being used, Alberth
11:05:59 <Alberth> a local name means it is unique
11:06:17 <planetmaker> a local naming scheme would make this probably (much) easier
11:06:17 <Alberth> and only exists within the template instance
11:06:42 <planetmaker> thus you define a name space per vehicle. And then you can re-use the same template over and over
11:06:56 <Alberth> that would be one case yes
11:07:42 <Alberth> it is like { int x; { int y; } /* y is not known here */ { int y; /* this is a different y */ } } in c++
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11:08:40 <Alberth> obviously this fails if you need y outside the innermost brackets :)
11:11:09 <planetmaker> yes. Any possibility to export it?
11:11:44 <Hirundo> namespace::y (if the namespace is named)
11:12:13 <Alberth> that's to be decided, I'd prefer it as return value or as incoming name through the parameter list
11:12:27 <Alberth> the latter is easier, probably
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15:10:26 <FLHerne> alien doesn't like the rpm :-(
15:13:15 <FLHerne> Ah, well, I'll have to compile it :-(
15:14:12 <Terkhen> hg clone the repo and symlink nmlc to /usr/bin/
15:19:40 <Terkhen> I assume that you can do the same with tarballs/binaries
15:20:09 <Terkhen> not that hg is complicated to use
15:21:27 <FLHerne> Well, I'll learn to use it when I have to :P . They've got tar.gz archives, and I know how to use those already...
15:23:02 <FLHerne> Installed it following the instructions, and now I get lots of python error messages :-(
15:24:19 <Terkhen> without knowing the errors we cant help you :P
15:24:39 <Terkhen> but you are probably missing pil and ply
15:26:07 * FLHerne goes to look up package namel for them
15:26:54 <FLHerne> Perhaps it should mention dependencies on the installation instructions?
15:27:08 <FLHerne> Hah, it does but I missed them :P
15:27:43 * FLHerne needs to read these things more carefully :-(
15:27:58 <Terkhen> IIRC it is mentioned, yes :)
15:29:23 <FLHerne> Works now, sorry to bother you
15:29:48 * FLHerne wonders if there's a sequence of puctuation for 'embarrassed face' :P
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16:20:24 <Way> why i dont see all signs in list?
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17:19:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: where in spain is that? :P
17:20:07 <__ln__> Terkhen: there's a map
17:20:44 <__ln__> i was going to ask which newgrf is that
17:23:11 <frosch123> we removed it from bananas because we don't like realism
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17:45:36 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24396 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt latvian.txt polish.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: czech - 14 changes by Eskymak
17:45:37 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
17:45:37 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
17:50:15 <andythenorth> what shall we talk nonsense about?
17:52:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I'm trying to code your CHIPS tiles as NewObjects now :P
17:53:42 <andythenorth> they won't accept cargo :P
17:54:17 <Supercheese> Making them overlap roads like the ISR NewObjects set?
17:54:30 <andythenorth> that's such a hack :P
17:54:31 <FLHerne> But they will be able to be built on more slope types :-)
17:54:36 <andythenorth> clever, but monstrous
17:54:51 <FLHerne> If I can figure out this NML gibberish, anyway :P
17:54:57 <Supercheese> agreed, sort of like Push/Pull trains
17:56:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you just copy one of the existing nml objects grfs?
17:56:08 <andythenorth> probably one on devzone
17:56:26 <FLHerne> But then I wouldn't learn :D
17:56:26 <frosch123> [19:50] <andythenorth> what shall we talk nonsense about? <- how about deprecating non-track station tiles, and adding a flag to object definitions whether they shall be offered in objects-, stations-, bus-, airport-,... gui? :p
17:56:41 * FLHerne tries to be productive for once :D
17:56:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: would we mind sanitising the spec too?
17:57:00 <andythenorth> maybe by copying objects or something?
17:57:07 <andythenorth> [is objects sane?]
17:57:30 <andythenorth> would these objects be allowed to accept cargo?
17:57:40 <andythenorth> can we reimplement everything as subclass of object :P
17:57:52 <andythenorth> and give them cbs to accept / produce cargo too
17:57:56 <frosch123> maybe they should be allowed to construct vehicles and send them onto your tracks
17:58:02 <andythenorth> and state machines for routing vehicles
17:58:27 <andythenorth> one way to rule them all :P
17:58:48 <andythenorth> 'everything is an object'
17:59:06 <frosch123> we should propose that to p1sim
17:59:09 <andythenorth> actually we might use that as a bonkers way to do openttd 2.0
17:59:17 <andythenorth> I think we should do something silly
17:59:22 <andythenorth> fuck all this realism stuff :P
17:59:29 <andythenorth> oops andythenorth got sweary
17:59:41 <andythenorth> it's been a long 2 years and 5 months :P
18:00:40 <andythenorth> yes, hoover buses that suck things up
18:00:50 <frosch123> we can unify rv and aircraft by adding an hoover height property to rv
18:01:08 <andythenorth> everything is just 'vehicle'
18:01:12 <frosch123> submarines are just a negative hoover height
18:01:22 <andythenorth> then my 'vehicles' python framework for newgrf starts looking like the game :P
18:01:28 <andythenorth> don't be silly :)
18:01:48 <andythenorth> how could that ever work :)
18:01:55 <FLHerne> How about flying cars, those would need variable hoover height...?
18:02:13 <andythenorth> just offset the graphics :P
18:02:15 <frosch123> roadtypes are just a type of railtypes
18:02:16 * andythenorth ponders that idea
18:02:26 <andythenorth> type of routetype
18:02:27 <frosch123> that would also unify trams and rails
18:02:35 <frosch123> including tracks which can both run trams and real trains
18:02:40 <andythenorth> but route is just a question of state machine on the object
18:02:55 <andythenorth> every tile = state machine, with programmable logic
18:02:58 <frosch123> you just need some flag which tells whether two tracktrypes can run in the same direction or cross only
18:03:00 <andythenorth> then we beat minecraft
18:03:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause will love it
18:03:12 <andythenorth> he may actually wet himself
18:03:38 <andythenorth> maybe we can reimplement it from scratch
18:03:46 <andythenorth> but we sack graphics, just use ascii
18:03:50 <frosch123> then you could just define that maglev crossing on normal rail need crossing gates
18:03:51 <FLHerne> frosch123: Surely for combined train/tram you'd need variable tram sprite offsets?
18:03:58 <andythenorth> maybe we just use unicode actually
18:04:13 <andythenorth> and it's 2d only
18:04:13 <FLHerne> Rails are down the middle, tramtracks are off to the side
18:04:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: just braille characters
18:04:38 <andythenorth> I don't have a braille display :(
18:04:49 <andythenorth> we could get 3D printers
18:04:57 <andythenorth> then you print out each tick in braille
18:05:02 <frosch123> wrote that years ago
18:05:23 <frosch123> but i cannot control the skipping between the lines
18:05:56 <andythenorth> if we make the game printed, we can relax about optimisation
18:06:02 <andythenorth> as each tick will take a while :P
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18:06:31 <andythenorth> also my idea for cargo flows 'downhill' is literally implementable
18:06:33 <FLHerne> Have it lasercut onto sheets of perspex
18:06:36 <frosch123> multiplayer would use mail? or would it also allow email?
18:06:46 <FLHerne> Then you could stack them to watch movement
18:06:56 <andythenorth> why not just fully networked?
18:07:02 <andythenorth> you both print same
18:07:13 <andythenorth> I don't think we need to over-complicate this
18:07:17 <andythenorth> keep it simple I say
18:07:29 <andythenorth> keep the current networking stack, seems to work ok
18:07:36 <andythenorth> no more latency issues either
18:07:58 <Supercheese> Client timeout: out of toner
18:08:19 <andythenorth> we could keep most of newgrf
18:08:25 <frosch123> but we need some kind of cheating protection
18:08:38 <frosch123> people should not be allowed to draw stuff by hand
18:09:02 <Supercheese> Well, it's hard to draw in toner, surely that has a different composition than ink
18:09:09 <andythenorth> actually I'm completely baffled what the input mechanism would be for players
18:09:15 <andythenorth> we have output, but where's the interface :o
18:09:58 <andythenorth> punched cards might work
18:10:14 <frosch123> yeah turn ottd into a card game
18:10:20 <frosch123> that also makes it suitable for offices
18:10:42 <andythenorth> we'd solve the OS X bugs as well
18:10:56 <andythenorth> or rather, we'd be platform independent
18:11:05 <frosch123> platform independent?
18:11:14 <andythenorth> well you'd need a table I guess
18:11:14 <frosch123> not sure, it might need a solid desk for massive networks
18:11:22 <Supercheese> dammit, was just gonna say ya need a table
18:11:47 <Supercheese> Hmm, you could make the cards magnetic
18:11:53 <Supercheese> any metal surface would do
18:12:21 <andythenorth> 'everything is object' ?
18:12:39 <andythenorth> then I can recode all my grfs again
18:12:40 <frosch123> i don't know how to add a superclass to object and vehicle
18:13:05 <frosch123> track might be a third class
18:13:10 <andythenorth> consider a fish processing ship?
18:13:16 <andythenorth> object or vehicle?
18:13:25 <Supercheese> Vehicle/Industry/Station
18:13:45 <andythenorth> station is a capability, not a class
18:13:52 <andythenorth> perhaps everything is just an object
18:13:58 <andythenorth> and objects can route objects
18:14:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean a ship mining iron, precessing it into more ships of the same type?
18:14:15 <andythenorth> cargo is an object?
18:14:27 <Supercheese> By the year 3,000, everything is just nanomachines making more nanomachines
18:14:29 <frosch123> vehicles should be cargo
18:14:48 <frosch123> but a ship can also carry a nuclear power plant
18:14:52 <andythenorth> objects: can create, route, destroy other objects
18:14:57 <frosch123> so, any "thing" can be a cargo
18:15:56 <frosch123> Supercheese: yeah, overpopulation is solved my making people smaller
18:17:18 <andythenorth> in Soviet Russia, entire factories were moved by rail
18:17:23 <andythenorth> not whilst producing tanks though :P
18:17:59 <frosch123> russia also has mobile nuclear powerplants in ships, in case you need a lot of power in some random place
18:18:09 <frosch123> it also solves the cooling issue nicely
18:18:39 <Supercheese> Error: Found opening token "In Soviet Russia", expected ending token "YOU!" not found
18:20:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: we need a newgrf spec for this :P
18:20:58 <andythenorth> cb 27D: can cargo be loaded into cargo?
18:21:06 <andythenorth> cb 39A: can cargo be routed?
18:21:52 <frosch123> cb 666: is cargo human player?
18:22:37 <Supercheese> cb1.21: is object capable of time travel?
18:24:21 <frosch123> does it travel itself, or does it travel other stuff only?
18:24:37 <FLHerne> cb [insert no here]: Is object retroactively built at start of game when constructed?
18:24:49 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the number will be filled in later
18:24:55 <andythenorth> by future developers
18:25:00 <andythenorth> actually we should add this to openttd
18:25:12 <andythenorth> changelog would say
18:25:14 <frosch123> oh wait, it's already there
18:25:20 <andythenorth> Feature: to be added by future developer
18:25:21 <frosch123> looks like it has been there since r1
18:25:35 <andythenorth> frosch123: it was probably there before that
18:25:38 <andythenorth> just nobody noticed
18:25:46 <andythenorth> does a feature exist if no-one is checking for it?
18:26:15 <frosch123> obviously the old svn crash was initiated by devs from the future to hide their actions
18:26:20 <FLHerne> Actually, all construction tools should have a retroactive option
18:26:41 <FLHerne> I keep wishing I'd built/modified something earlier
18:27:04 <FLHerne> It needs a setting for how long ago to build it, too :P
18:27:55 <frosch123> it just needs to be there before you look at it
18:32:37 * andythenorth will be back earlier
18:33:59 <frosch123> oh shit... he caught himself in a loop
18:41:45 * Supercheese is designing a webpage.
18:42:01 <Supercheese> Have the border padded by 0, 1, or 2px? Hmmm
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18:42:36 * Supercheese is going to be dreaming in CSS tonight.
18:43:06 <Supercheese> padding:0 10px 0 20px;
18:43:07 <Supercheese> position:relative;
18:44:43 <Supercheese> Hm, either my eyesight is failing or in Times New Roman a 0 and two parenthesis () look the same from a distance
18:45:12 <frosch123> i just noticed myself how old i am
18:45:31 <frosch123> 10 years and 11 days ago i started my military service
18:46:13 <frosch123> that means i somehow missed 10 years schools-out
18:47:04 <Supercheese> Oh, and because padding a border by 1em is way too much padding
18:47:24 <Supercheese> That particular line was just taken at random
18:48:21 <andythenorth> don't restart the px / em debate :P
18:48:25 <andythenorth> px had finally won
18:48:29 <andythenorth> then it got unpicked
18:48:36 <andythenorth> now we have retina to consider
18:48:40 <andythenorth> and all kinds of other crap
18:49:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your concrete tile looks nice as an object :D
18:49:11 <Supercheese> I've had retinae for quite a while... ;)
18:49:34 * FLHerne made something that sort-of worked for once :P
18:51:29 * andythenorth is still griping about the game
18:51:45 <andythenorth> everything I thought I wanted - roadtypes, multistop docks, newstations etc
18:52:05 <andythenorth> everything is just more and more smooth and less and less interesting
18:52:20 <andythenorth> games need facets and edges and problems
18:52:25 * frosch123 plays some alley cat
18:53:26 <andythenorth> needs an OS X port :P
18:53:33 <Supercheese> Hmmm, prescale the image, or let the CSS do the scaling?
18:53:37 <FLHerne> Really? They need limitations, but not artificial and pointless ones...
18:54:47 <andythenorth> we're doing it all wrong
18:55:00 <FLHerne> 90-degree-only roads are an annoyance, not an interesting restriction:-(
18:55:09 * andythenorth waits for a java version of alley cat to finish crashing Safari :P
18:55:47 <frosch123> it only runs in dosbox anyway
18:56:59 <Rubidium> andythenorth: which OS X does it need to be ported to?
18:59:24 <andythenorth> game timespan is too long
18:59:26 <andythenorth> maps are too big
18:59:29 <andythenorth> newgrfs are too big
19:00:00 <andythenorth> and if I wanted a model train set, I'd get one
19:00:30 <andythenorth> newgrf is win, PBS is win, GS is probably win
19:01:11 <andythenorth> and andythenorth is talking to self again :P
19:01:32 <andythenorth> I think BANDIT is probably going to suck btw
19:01:42 <andythenorth> every time I look at it, I wonder what the point is
19:01:42 <Supercheese> Sorry, no BEER, you forgot to put it in the cargotable
19:01:57 <andythenorth> all trucks look about the same
19:02:07 <andythenorth> but every few years they just get a bit faster
19:02:14 <andythenorth> so then you have to autoreplace them all
19:02:25 <andythenorth> I might as well just code them to 'get a bit faster' every few years
19:02:30 <andythenorth> and give them 255 year lifespans
19:02:44 <Supercheese> Surely their running costs also change over the years
19:02:49 <frosch123> andythenorth: play a game with nuts
19:02:55 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
19:02:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
19:03:16 <andythenorth> also, spanish beer or french?
19:03:20 <frosch123> nuts has some special aspects
19:03:36 <frosch123> esp. the way it deals with short vehicles, it makes all other sets look stupid
19:04:23 <frosch123> it's all about identifying mis-features and turning them into something better
19:08:45 * andythenorth considers playing new canset release
19:10:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: what was the misfeature in the case above? :)
19:15:23 <frosch123> generations of wagons with different lengths
19:15:29 <frosch123> which make autoreplace a pain
19:17:08 <andythenorth> autoreplace is a misfeature
19:17:13 <andythenorth> real men replace their own toy trains
19:18:19 <pasky> Hi! I have a bank with cargo station and a train station nearby; I want to use trucks to bring valuables from train station to bank and back, however this doesn't seem to work since the trucks will happily load back the valuables they just unloaded for transfer; is this scenario supposed to work with current codebase? what's the trick?
19:18:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth/frosch123: did you see the template-replacement patch on the forums?
19:18:51 <andythenorth> consists and crap?
19:18:53 <frosch123> pasky: use two stations
19:19:03 <frosch123> order vehicle to unload only or load only
19:19:28 <pasky> frosch123: hmm, i don't think that would work either, but i'll check FLHerne's link first :)
19:19:34 <FLHerne> Or CargoDist, of course :P
19:19:36 <frosch123> FLHerne: yes, ofc. we discussed such feature since at least 200u8
19:19:58 <andythenorth> I think it's a misfeature
19:20:01 <FLHerne> That patch seems to be rather buggy though, sadly :-(
19:20:10 <andythenorth> if you're only playing 30 years, you don't need consists
19:20:22 <FLHerne> Works enough to be useful, though
19:20:23 * andythenorth proposes everyone must play the way andythenorth dictates
19:20:43 <andythenorth> if games last, 30 years I can make FIRS smaller
19:20:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why would you want to play 30 years? Where's the fun? :P
19:20:54 <frosch123> i thought you were bored about your style of play? :p
19:21:02 * FLHerne plays 1919 to 2012 normally
19:21:03 <andythenorth> I keep starting in 1870
19:21:13 <pasky> hmm, is the two-way feeder service dependent just on timing?
19:21:16 <andythenorth> then I watch boringly slow vehicles pottering around, with broken towns
19:21:30 <pasky> ah never mind, i think i get it now
19:21:33 <andythenorth> wondering how I'll ever get enough ships into FISH to cover pre-1950 :P
19:21:46 <andythenorth> and being annoyed that I have no trucks
19:21:54 <andythenorth> and that FIRS refuses to build industries
19:22:03 <pasky> still, wouldn't a patch for this be trivial? at least for the simple case, "don't pick up cargo if you'd unload it at the originating station"
19:22:05 <FLHerne> pasky: No. The idea is you have one station where RVs only unload an trains only load, and another for the opposite
19:22:34 <andythenorth> two way feeder service is remarkably stupid
19:22:36 <pasky> oh... well, there isn't really room for another train station :(
19:22:40 <andythenorth> I wouldn't bother
19:22:42 <pasky> i guess i'll get coding
19:22:50 <andythenorth> pasky: you'll need to track cargo packets
19:23:14 <pasky> but the game already knows originating station of each packet
19:23:21 * andythenorth considers changing the goals for FISH
19:23:25 <pasky> of course the naive approach won't work for complex multi-level feeder services
19:23:30 <FLHerne> pasky: There was a reason that didn't work
19:23:37 * FLHerne looks on the forums for it
19:23:37 <pasky> but i think that doesn't preclude solving the simple case
19:23:41 <frosch123> pasky: there is already such a patch somewhere which solves the case for a single hop feeder
19:23:54 <pasky> is there a reason why it wasn't merged?
19:24:08 <frosch123> i am sure there was
19:26:29 <Alberth> pasky: with 3 stations you can have cargo traveling in circles
19:26:48 <frosch123> most likely because it already fails with 3 stations, which i would consider the standard case
19:26:58 <frosch123> of rv-aircraft-rv, and rv-ship-rv
19:27:16 <pasky> Alberth: yes, but isn't it better to solve at least the simple case now?
19:27:45 <frosch123> no, i just adds useless bloat
19:28:01 <pasky> well it's not useless when it solves an issue
19:28:02 <andythenorth> first we need to make everything cargo, then we could fix feeders
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19:28:24 <frosch123> pasky: who uses two-hop feeders without using three-hop feeders?
19:28:56 <andythenorth> patch locally :)
19:29:15 <pasky> sure, but why not help others too while at it
19:29:40 <FLHerne> That was why the simplistic cargo tagging didn't work
19:29:52 <FLHerne> See rest of thread too, in fact
19:29:52 <frosch123> maybe we try to help patchpacks to get a userbase :p
19:33:38 <Alberth> pasky: no, because it takes less than a week before we get complaints that a slightly more advanced case fails. Since the patch has no grow path to the full solution, it is just wasted effort, and creates more corner cases, and even gets in the way once you add a proper solution
19:33:50 <pasky> FLHerne: thanks, that's helpful for showing pitfalls a more proper solution must avoid
19:34:00 <Alberth> frosch123: let's start our own patchpack :p
19:34:31 <pasky> Alberth: hm, i don't really agree with most of that but i agree with the last point, that's right...
19:35:21 <frosch123> Alberth: do we have any central goal in our patch?
19:36:03 <Alberth> we can have one if you like
19:36:18 <Alberth> as much as possible users?
19:36:41 <frosch123> or as much as possible developers?
19:36:49 <Alberth> as much as possible patches?
19:37:18 <frosch123> yeah, in number of patches independent of loc
19:37:22 <frosch123> that sounds nice :)
19:37:38 <frosch123> but no cheating, no reverts
19:38:34 <Alberth> not needed with a patch queue :D
19:42:10 <frosch123> yeah, we should maintain the complete span between stable branches as a patch queue
19:42:23 <frosch123> no trunk commits anymore
19:43:13 * andythenorth upgrades all outdated macports packages
19:43:16 <andythenorth> this will end badly
19:43:29 * andythenorth wants to fix python
19:45:09 <frosch123> old movies are weird
19:45:20 <frosch123> sometimes they really mess up their special effects
19:45:35 <frosch123> when they could really make them way better with some trivial adjusting
19:49:50 <andythenorth> it has been suggested that I reinstall my OS X to fix my python issues
19:49:59 <andythenorth> I am not convinced that is wise
19:50:18 <frosch123> install a virtual machine
19:50:24 <frosch123> and just python inside that
19:50:44 <frosch123> if that works you can trash you main os, and install a minimal os which only supports running vms
19:51:05 <andythenorth> then I could run OS X in the VM :P
19:51:51 <frosch123> haha, some things never change
19:52:05 <frosch123> some pretty girls are only in a movie to get eaten alive in the third scene
19:54:11 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Linux :D
19:54:31 <andythenorth> then I could run OS X in a Linux VM
19:55:03 <FLHerne> Why would you want OSX anyway? What advantage does it have?
19:55:27 * FLHerne removed it from all his PPC Macs
19:55:41 <andythenorth> it has the advantage that I don't have to relearn 'computer'
19:55:45 <andythenorth> I don't like 'computer'
19:55:51 <andythenorth> I don't want to spend time on 'computer'
19:56:29 <FLHerne> Recabbage a Linux DE to behave mostly like OSX then :P
19:56:41 <andythenorth> sounds like work
19:57:47 <FLHerne> Use KDE, then you can change stuff to whatever makes sense to you :P
19:58:07 <FLHerne> Unfortunately, that means no-one else can use my computer, but anyway...
19:58:55 <frosch123> don't switch to something which is heading for touchscreen-usability unless you have a touchscreen
19:59:01 * andythenorth suspects that having two versions of python 2.6 was silly anyway
19:59:10 <frosch123> i think that is the most important rule nowadays
19:59:20 <FLHerne> Mint, with KDE, then :D
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20:00:06 <FLHerne> Maya KDE RC1 is finally out, which is good
20:00:28 <andythenorth> maybe I should blitz setuptools
20:01:04 <andythenorth> maybe I should just do this on python 2.7 :P
20:04:21 <Zuu> maybe I should fire up visual studio and fix the coding style issue of my patch
20:05:13 <Zuu> though the problem to be fixed can easily be fixed in the patch itself, it makes sense to change the source files and re-generate the patch :-)
20:08:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do the cranes etc on CHIPS tiles need such large bounding boxes?
20:08:15 <FLHerne> Or are they just that shape for convenience?
20:08:24 <andythenorth> didn't code them
20:08:52 <Alberth> Zuu: it does? I often pull patches from the queue, change the patch file, and re-apply :p
20:09:05 <FLHerne> Ok. I'll assume "they don't but it doesn't matter" than :P
20:09:41 <andythenorth> this has been puzzling me for two days now
20:09:56 <Zuu> Alberth: I tend to not touch the patch files other than sometimes grab them from .hg/.. instead of producing them on the fly.
20:09:58 <andythenorth> I have also tried a new shell after the easy_install
20:10:04 <andythenorth> I've reinstalled setuptools
20:10:10 <Zuu> but I guess that makes sense as well to change the patch.
20:10:38 <andythenorth> the 'reinstall OS X' solution will take me two days
20:10:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Also, why does cranes.png have two identical lines, and one which entirely consists of transparency?
20:11:15 <michi_cc> andythenorth: I don't see any line where it says /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin was added to PATH (and no line about copying/symlinking to /usr/bin or similar either)
20:11:29 <andythenorth> FLHerne: no idea
20:11:41 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I'll symlink
20:12:08 <Alberth> Zuu: it's a bit dangerous, as patch files are not version controlled
20:12:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Did you not draw most of it? :P
20:12:46 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Mind you I've got no idea whether this is intended or not.
20:13:34 <FLHerne> andythenorth: And you still don't know why it's like that? :P
20:14:19 <FLHerne> Ah well. I suppose I'll find out why when I break it :P
20:14:24 <andythenorth> should this be executable in shell? /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/virtualenv
20:14:34 <andythenorth> i.e. if I do $/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/virtualenv
20:16:45 <andythenorth> so the package is missing
20:17:28 <andythenorth> I have an egg for it in site-packages
20:17:50 <Alberth> the egg is just meta information iirc :)
20:18:49 <andythenorth> contains a bunch of .py and other files
20:21:10 <andythenorth> my path is exporting
20:21:17 <andythenorth> my python is broken though :P
20:22:07 * andythenorth blames setuptools :P
20:25:27 <andythenorth> some stuff works fine
20:29:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Are non-track concrete slab platforms supposed to match the track ones? They don't :P
20:30:40 <andythenorth> but which base set?
20:31:59 <FLHerne> So it uses the baseset tiles for the full-tile tiles?
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20:47:57 <CornishPasty> Wow, uppercase hostname, how quaint!
20:48:33 <frosch123> sorry, but you are only the third one to notice
20:51:11 <andythenorth> I've totally broken my local newgrf environment now too
20:51:18 <andythenorth> among other things
20:51:44 <frosch123> sounds like it was intentional :
20:52:01 <andythenorth> you can only rm so many things before stuff breaks :P
20:52:19 <frosch123> yeah, you should not try to reboot
20:52:30 <frosch123> better get a small generator so you do not suffer from power outage
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20:58:18 <andythenorth> stack overflow is all our friends
21:07:43 * andythenorth ponders using nml in virtualenv with bootstrap
21:07:48 <andythenorth> also BANDIT, FISH :P
21:09:05 <andythenorth> the author says that's a bad idea
21:12:49 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do you think all the rotations for cranes, forklifts etc are needed for CHIPS objects?
21:13:06 * FLHerne tries to decide how to categorise them
21:13:14 <andythenorth> you could randomise them
21:13:18 <andythenorth> I think that's what CHIPS does
21:13:45 <andythenorth> do objects have random?
21:13:59 <FLHerne> They probably do, but that wouldn't be suitable
21:14:12 <FLHerne> Eyecandy builders don't like random much :P
21:14:35 <andythenorth> better give them all the angles then ;)
21:14:59 <FLHerne> I suppose I could try that out
21:15:08 <FLHerne> Worried about menu clutter though
21:15:33 <andythenorth> pick the angles you like then
21:15:46 <andythenorth> ship it and see who complains?
21:15:54 <FLHerne> I'll try both and see which works for me
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