IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-06-28
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00:00:01 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5619.06666667
00:00:18 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 6020.42857143
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07:18:11 <John_Snow> guys, where i can find guide how to use traffic lights ?
07:21:21 <Terkhen> if you mean train signals, try searching signals at the openttd wiki
07:22:05 <Terkhen> if you mean the traffic lights patch, no idea
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13:49:21 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: what's going on with CETS these days?
13:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: oberhümer did some graphics recently, but i have not had a chance to review his changes
13:50:29 <Elukka> did you end up going 32bpp?
13:52:01 <Elukka> i see there are some new sprites
13:53:07 <Elukka> oberhümer certainly went with different colors to mine, i can't tell if it's just a different color choice or if they're 32bpp
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13:54:59 <Elukka> i need to try to get some sprites done again
13:55:02 <Elukka> i'd love a wider palette
13:56:40 <Elukka> between my sprites and oberhümer's older and newer ones the shading and colors are sorta all over the place
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15:07:43 <Terkhen> I should be busy too but I'm not :P
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19:24:28 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24360 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#5224]: Ship-specific 80+x variables were missing for unknown reason. (Hirundo)
19:30:56 <andythenorth> bananas tells me people are doing something with the game though
19:31:08 <andythenorth> why aren't they here complaining about something?
19:32:04 * Alberth vaguely remembers mentioning a few fishy things
19:35:38 <Alberth> and also wishing a 10% or so speed-up of the boats when empty
19:36:19 <Rubidium> so... our coding style and reluctancy for accepting everything is just ISO 9001 ;)
19:38:58 <Alberth> perfectly defined and repeatable :D
19:40:47 <andythenorth> we should get ISO accreditation
19:42:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I complain about lack of autorefit :P
19:42:27 <Terkhen> if you are looking for complaints, that should help you
19:42:30 <andythenorth> I complain about lack of v1.0 on CHIPS :P
19:48:14 <Alberth> you can only display one type of cargo, I guess?
19:49:07 <andythenorth> at least if I want to stay sane
19:49:19 * Alberth wants a sane andy as well
19:49:32 * andythenorth wonders what colour for bauxite
19:50:06 <andythenorth> don't care about RL
19:50:14 <andythenorth> just has to look different to clay and iron ore in game
19:50:16 <Alberth> red-ish comes to mind, but that's already used
19:53:45 <andythenorth> HEQS bauxite is kind of pink, same as copper ore
19:53:49 <andythenorth> that will do I guess
19:55:24 <Alberth> seems useful if the ore does not change colour while loadingit into a vehicle :)
19:57:32 * FLHerne insists on the ability to display multiple cargoes simultaneously :P
19:57:50 <FLHerne> Sorry, wasn't paying attention earlier :-(
19:57:52 * Alberth expects a patch from FLHerne shortly
19:58:53 <andythenorth> FLHerne: which one goes on top?
19:59:16 <FLHerne> I have a station serving Coal/Ore/Bauxite/Clay/Sand/Stone - autorefit is awesome :D
19:59:42 <FLHerne> There should be a profusion of piles in myriad colours :-)
20:00:07 * FLHerne remembers that English Lang is no longer important :D
20:00:36 <FLHerne> Oh, it has oil too. That can't be piled up in the same way though :P
20:02:25 <frosch123> they help in making a pile of oil
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20:05:24 <DDR> frosch123: Beats what the american military did with their waste... 'um... ammo! Let's make burny ammo with it!'
20:05:58 <frosch123> yeah, it has a high density, useful for ammo
20:06:21 <DDR> Also, radioactive. Not useful for anyone near it.
20:06:57 <DDR> Most immediately the enemy, but also the people shooting it... and the people who have to live with it after the shooting stops. :(
20:06:58 <frosch123> if it's proper u238, the radioactivity will likely not hurt you
20:07:22 <frosch123> u238 does not have enough radiation
20:07:29 <DDR> Not in small amounts, but especially in Iraq people shoot lots of stuff.
20:07:56 <Rubidium> yay... someone who doesn't know much about radioactivity ;)
20:08:27 <DDR> Plus, when it burns (that's why it's armour-piercing) it sort of emits little chemically-inert radioactive droplets.
20:08:55 <DDR> Apparently, they're small enough to fit through the pores of your skin. O_o
20:09:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Yexo> are you sure one has arrived this month?
20:09:55 <frosch123> DDR: skin? who cares about skin, if you can inhale them?
20:10:15 <DDR> And, as further proof God has a sense of humour, your body deposits all of the radioactive material it can in the balls. I need those, so I think I'll stay away from shooting burning radioactive waste.
20:10:56 <frosch123> oh, is that a reason to send womans into the field?
20:12:04 <frosch123> DDR: anyway, i am quite sure that u238 does not hurt you due to radioactivity, but because it is heavy metal
20:12:29 <DDR> frosch123: Nup, it's radioactive. Not very, but quite enough.
20:12:48 * FLHerne looks back up the channel
20:12:58 <DDR> Either way, it's not something you should be just scattering around a populated area.
20:12:59 <frosch123> it's actually the least radioactive thing of all radioactives
20:12:59 <Rubidium> DDR: the half-life of U238 is about the 4.5 bilion years, releasing an alpha particle that is stopped by something like a sheet of paper
20:13:04 <FLHerne> Impressive off-topic wandering :D
20:13:18 <Rubidium> so picking up U238 with gloves is basically perfectly safe
20:13:59 <DDR> Yes, but you're not doing so... you're breathing it in, because you burnt it up a little while back, remember?
20:14:06 <FLHerne> Except the risk of the US military shooting you for stealing their ammo? :P
20:14:57 <andythenorth> is u238 a valid cargo for FIRS?
20:15:09 <Rubidium> also, the reason why depleted uranium is used in armour piercing has nothing to do with it's radioactivity, just with its density
20:16:12 <Rubidium> and... interestingly enough to shield radioactive materials since it's much denser (70%), thus shields beta/gamma radiation significantly better
20:17:05 <frosch123> oh, did not know that application
20:17:05 <FLHerne> Presumably osmium would be too brittle and/or rare?
20:17:58 <Rubidium> even then, uranium oxide is more likely to kill you (due to toxity) than the radiation (but that's just minor details as dead's dead')
20:18:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: I hope it is not
20:19:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: you want to write a chemistry based industry set?
20:19:17 <andythenorth> I was bad at chemistry
20:19:21 <andythenorth> valency and crap :P
20:19:52 <FLHerne> Can we have nuclear power stations in FIRS?
20:20:17 <DDR> The reason it's used is because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than magnesium (or was that sodium... tungsten? I dunno. Some silly-expensive metal like that...) and the US military had a bunch of uranium on it's hands.
20:20:26 <DDR> It was a confluence of wants...
20:20:30 <FLHerne> Then there'd be a use for pairs of outdated Class 20s dragging short rakes of odd-looking wagons about :D
20:20:56 <DDR> They wanted to get rid of their nuclear waste, and the munitions industry wanted something less expensive to make their bullets out of.
20:21:01 <andythenorth> they'd trigger lots of 'this vehicle is making no money' warnings :P
20:21:17 * Alberth wanders off to more interesting things
20:21:50 <frosch123> DDR: u238 has just more than 10 times the densitry of magnesium
20:21:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: you don't need to give it fuel at all :p
20:22:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: what's more interesting? :o
20:22:25 <frosch123> DDR: and every heavy metal is more toxic than uranium is radioactive
20:22:36 <frosch123> so your arguments are increasingly pointless
20:22:40 <DDR> frosch123: It doesn't matter too much whether it's dense, it's whether it's hot that counts more.
20:23:05 <frosch123> then you should use caesium or iod
20:23:20 <DDR> What did they use before uranium?
20:23:31 <FLHerne> Add uranium-processing plants, too, and nuclear waste repositories :-)
20:24:10 <DDR> frosch123: The more I talk, the more it seems that diplomacy is the better option.
20:24:25 <DDR> (Or simply not using armour-piercing rounds.)
20:24:31 <Rubidium> did you actually know there is two times more rubidium (production: < 10 tonnes/year) in the ground than copper (production 16 million tonnes/year)?
20:25:09 <FLHerne> Is it near-impossible to extract, or have they just not found a use for it yet? (or both)
20:25:27 <frosch123> Rubidium: in what depth?
20:26:15 <Rubidium> frosch123: the rubidium can be found basically anywhere, just barely anywhere with minable quantities. Those that mine it, mine it as by product
20:27:21 <Rubidium> so rubidium is 100 ppm, silver is 0.070 ppm, gold is 0.0011 ppm
20:28:41 <frosch123> that's for the whole earth?
20:29:04 <frosch123> wiki says different numbers for the surface-near part
20:29:05 <Rubidium> uhm, earth's crust ;)
20:29:26 <frosch123> 29 ppm rb, 0,005 ppm au
20:31:16 <Rubidium> still, doesn't make much difference
20:32:13 <Rubidium> DDR: before uranium they probably didn't have a need for armour piercing rounds of that strength
20:32:42 <DDR> I'm pretty sure they did.
20:32:59 <DDR> We've never been short of stuff we want to shoot through, but can't. ;)
20:33:54 <frosch123> i guess lead is most common
20:33:57 <Rubidium> previously the idea was bigger is better
20:34:09 <frosch123> likely lead is even more dangerous than uranium
20:34:13 <Rubidium> and precision kinda sucked
20:34:21 <DDR> I've got lead in my basement.
20:34:23 <frosch123> i would think that that lead is easier washed away by water
20:34:40 <DDR> It's pretty much OK, as long as you don't eat it... it is sweet-flavoured, though.
20:34:47 <DDR> So I've always wanted to try some.
20:35:23 <Rubidium> DDR: so lead is safe if you don't ingest/inhale it and uranium is unsafe when you ingest/inhale it
20:35:37 <Rubidium> that doesn't quite mean one is safer than the other
20:36:13 <DDR> Well, it's hard to inhale lead, it being rather solid and all.
20:36:24 <DDR> I mean, you can make a fairly safe water pipe out of it...
20:36:37 <DDR> but when you use it to season your wine, it's kinda poisonous.
20:36:43 <frosch123> poiling point of lead is 2000K, uranium has 4000K
20:37:02 <DDR> But the burning point is what makes it piercing.
20:37:03 <frosch123> a uranium water pipe is likely a lot better than a lead water pipe
20:37:16 <DDR> It doesn't matter *what* the boiling point is...
20:37:22 <DDR> frosch123: You're off your rocker.
20:37:58 <DDR> You'd be getting irradiated water versus normal water, pretty much.
20:38:12 <DDR> Lead doesn't poision stuff by being around it. It's a metal. It mostly just sits there.
20:38:32 <frosch123> well, that way my point all the time
20:38:43 <frosch123> both lead and uranium are toxic because they are heavy metals
20:39:01 <frosch123> and the radiation of u238 is neglibe compared to the toxicness
20:39:22 <DDR> Uranium is toxic primarily because it's fucking radioactive. The fact that it's a heavy metal is just an added anti-bonus.
20:39:28 <frosch123> and lead does exactly that: it poisons by just sitting around
20:39:44 <DDR> So does Uranium, to a much greater degree.
20:39:55 <DDR> Like, I can eat quite a lot of lead before it kills me.
20:40:05 <frosch123> DDR: uranium is barely radioactive
20:40:11 <DDR> But I don't have to eat so much uranium.
20:40:36 <DDR> Not the natural ore, but I we're going in to this with depleted uranium, so it's still pretty radioactive.
20:41:37 <Rubidium> DDR: "Of ingested inorganic lead, about 15% is absorbed, but this percentage is higher in children, pregnant women, and people with deficiencies of calcium, zinc, or iron"
20:41:45 <DDR> Not only that, but at the point the uranium has been used -- it's transformed into tiny inert particles the body can't get rid of.
20:41:54 <Rubidium> so, you adsorb 15 times more lead than uranium when ingesting it!
20:42:02 <DDR> Hunh, I didn't know that.
20:42:07 <Rubidium> furthermore, uranium is barely radioactive
20:42:29 <Rubidium> DDR: Radium is over one million times as radioactive as the same mass of uranium
20:42:38 <Sacro> and how does that compare to Rubidium
20:42:44 <DDR> It's still quite radioactive, it's not depleted all the way.
20:43:46 <Rubidium> DDR: fun fact: my highschool teacher taught us that radium was in the walls
20:44:19 <DDR> Ever been to radium hot springs? It's a town around here... they get a fair buildup of natural radioactive gas in places.
20:44:42 <Rubidium> DDR: no, still... radium is a million times more radioactive than uranium
20:44:49 <DDR> To the point it's actually a bit of a problem, in places.
20:44:58 <Rubidium> so if the hot springs are safe, then uranium is even safer
20:45:01 <andythenorth> radium or radon?
20:45:13 <DDR> Yes, but again, we're not shooting uranium-the-rock.
20:45:33 <DDR> we're shooting uranium-the-metal-which-was-just-inside-a-nuclear-reactor.
20:45:47 <DDR> It's not depleted all the way, just out of useful reacting life I think.
20:46:08 <andythenorth> loads of that in the uk
20:47:47 <DDR> frosch123: To clear something up, just because it's depleted doesn't mean it's not dangerously radioactive.
20:49:24 <Rubidium> DDR: to have the same radioactivity (geigercounter) you need:
20:49:49 <DDR> andythenorth: iirc, on the first day of the american invasion of iraq, ambient airborne radiation in Britan spiked something like fourfold.
20:50:37 <Rubidium> @calc 4.468*1000*1000*1000*365/3.8235
20:50:37 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 426525434811.0
20:50:52 <Rubidium> roughly that many times more Uranium atoms than Radon (gas) atoms
20:50:56 <FLHerne> DDR: But was it at significant levels anyway?
20:51:22 <andythenorth> radon is a killer in the uk
20:52:41 <DDR> FLHerne: I think it was still pretty much safe.
20:53:09 <DDR> But, since that was almost undoubtedly coming from Iraq, I'd think that the radioactivity in-country would be much greater.
20:54:23 <frosch123> DDR: depleted uranium has less u235 and u234 than natural uranium, which results in depleted uranium having 60% of the radioactivity of natural uranium
20:54:57 <DDR> Hunh. I'd think it would still be as radioactive as the nuclear facility it came out of.
20:55:05 <frosch123> actually, this is kind of obvious... if it would have higher radiation than natural uranium, then it would be prefered for enrichtment over natural
20:55:53 <Rubidium> DDR: the radioactivity isn't in the uranium, bit in the crap coming from uranium after fission
20:56:14 <DDR> Ah. Knew I was missing something...
20:56:29 <DDR> I didn't take good notes, this conversation just sort of happened. :P
20:56:56 <andythenorth> CHIPS has 6666 downloads
20:57:12 <andythenorth> is that bad? or irrelevant?
20:57:19 <CornishPasty> 1 more and it will be IRC!
20:58:47 <DDR> oo, chips... chips is good...
20:59:01 * CornishPasty steals DDR's chips
20:59:30 <DDR> *falls to his knees* Why?
20:59:35 <andythenorth> ach, no bundles server :P
21:02:36 <FLHerne> Is it possible for an industry to start producing an extra cargo after a certain date?
21:02:46 <andythenorth> yes, but it's confusing
21:02:56 <andythenorth> it will cause bug reports
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21:04:43 <FLHerne> Then you could have waste collection centres producing household waste, and then later recyclables as well
21:05:26 <FLHerne> Add power stations, and recycling depots could produce biomass. Also coal to powerstations
21:11:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Did you raise farm production? It seems higher than before
21:13:18 <andythenorth> I added randomisation, that will give higher initial values for farms in some cases
21:13:37 <FLHerne> I have an uninfluenced Arable Farm producing 126 tonnes/month... :D
21:14:08 <FLHerne> Before it would be 16, if I remember...
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