IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-06-29
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07:52:29 <Alberth> DorpsGek should refuse to do such simple calculations :p
08:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and "simple" is?
08:10:32 <Alberth> I was wondering about that too. No doubt someone has created a classification of that already for eg schools, but how to find that?
08:11:54 <Hirundo> "To get the latest version (v1.3) you will have to sign up at SimuScape and then go to THIS POST on the SimuScape site."<- wtf
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08:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: we've had a very lengthy discussion on the german forum with OzTrans (and partially SAC) about the sense or nonsense of forced registering at simuscape
08:41:11 <planetmaker> it might even stretch the meaning of 'discussion'
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14:19:05 <Beul> is there anybody in here that could give me some help with NML?
14:21:35 <Rubidium> I reckon there is, if you can come up with a specific question regarding NML
14:22:04 <Rubidium> mostly because quite a few people know bits of it and only a few know everything
14:23:37 * Rubidium is off enjoying the rest of his morning ;)
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14:40:55 <Beul> i think it should be rather simple :p, I am trying to run NML from a different directory than is is installed, but I keep getting the is not recognised error
14:40:55 <Alberth> I am using an old chips now, apparently
14:41:32 <Alberth> how exactly do you try to run NML ?
14:42:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: I am in the middle of a game (although, 2016 now iirc)
14:42:20 <Alberth> Will update for the next game
14:42:21 <andythenorth> you can't update a running game?
14:42:25 * andythenorth does it all the time
14:42:32 <andythenorth> absolutely no problems, we should allow everyone to do it :P
14:42:35 <Alberth> I probably can, but don't really want to
14:43:12 <andythenorth> it has side effects
14:43:22 <Alberth> (16:49:35) Alberth: how exactly do you try to run NML ? <- Beul: In case you missed it, I asked a counter question
14:43:23 <andythenorth> like industries breaking graphics, cargos
14:43:29 <andythenorth> or trains having invalid length
14:43:35 <andythenorth> or stations that no longer have track bits
14:43:41 <andythenorth> or strings that change and crash ottd
14:43:50 <Beul> yeah, sorry, I was at the door for a package
14:43:53 <andythenorth> but hey, why not allow everyone to do it?
14:44:08 <Alberth> but then I can no longer see your nice CHIPS platforms!
14:44:21 <Alberth> Beul: no problem, just making sure you noticed
14:44:42 <Alberth> irc conversations are not that fast :)
14:45:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: people complain :(
14:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we do allow everyone to do it :)
14:46:07 <Beul> I have added the Path to NML directory to my path enviroment variable, and now I am trying to run this command: nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml
14:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Beul: did you restart your cmd-window after changing the path?
14:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming windows)
14:48:04 <andythenorth> hmm, sorry, can't help :|
14:48:32 <Beul> -_- i did not restart CMD
14:49:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had that problem many times :)
14:51:39 <Beul> yeah, but I have been using windows for 18 years now, so restarting after changeing something should have been the first thing I tried :p
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15:28:37 <frosch123> what's the difference between tt-ms and tt-forums? :)
15:29:48 <frosch123> on tt-ms the simuscape topic is hillarious
15:30:24 <frosch123> they all fail with registering, and now try to help each other wrt. where they get stuck
15:31:23 <frosch123> calling each other stupid for not knowing something and then giving a wrong answer and such...
15:31:35 <Rubidium_> So an undecypherable captcha, that keep people definitely out
15:34:00 <Rubidium_> So the only thing people will find are the dead /scraped threads on other forums
15:38:43 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24361 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#5227] (r22926): Apparently ext. A1 did not work at all. (Hirundo)
15:40:57 <Beul> I have got another question, what property do I have to assign to a rail type in order to allow all train types to run on it? (like the yard tracks in the dutch trackset)
15:42:13 <frosch123> you have to set properties of the other railtypes to be compatible with your one
15:42:43 <frosch123> i guess check the dutch trackset, or nuts
15:43:07 <frosch123> hmm, though iirc nuts has no public source code...
15:43:12 <frosch123> so go for the dutch thingie :)
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15:49:47 <Beul> might be a stupid question, but what is the syntax to decompile a grf written in NML
15:50:04 <frosch123> you cannot decompile into nml
15:51:13 <Beul> sometimes the solution is to simple for me to recognise
16:14:45 <NGC3982> can it ever be possible to create a decompiler for grfs written in nml?
16:18:34 <Achilleshiel> decompilers are nasty, because it is not in clean code
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16:43:53 <Beul> can I set the track over/underlay to RAILTYPE_NORMAL like you would do with sations and terrain?
16:44:12 <Beul> I only want to replace the tunnel and bridge sprites
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16:51:29 <Beul> nvm, I firured it out allready
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17:32:55 * peter1138 bops along to the Yes album
17:33:22 <andythenorth> life! life is here!
17:45:16 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24362 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt japanese.txt):
17:45:16 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:16 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: japanese - 4 changes by TzakShrike
17:45:16 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 87 changes by Tucalipe
17:47:32 <andythenorth> Alberth: can you recall your FISH suggestions?
17:47:37 <andythenorth> FISH goes well with CHIPS :P
17:47:46 * andythenorth wants to "1.0" another grf
17:50:27 <andythenorth> if I 1.0 all my grfs, can I stop hanging out here and get a new hobby? :D
17:51:47 * Belugas floats in space with Enigma
17:52:00 * andythenorth floats a toddler in the bath
17:52:04 <andythenorth> mostly he sinks actually
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17:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Oberhümer seems to have implemented that
17:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't tell whether it works
17:53:56 * andythenorth ponders rewriting FISH in nml. But then compiling would be slow :|
17:54:09 <Elukka> i thought the new sprites looked kinda 32bpp
17:54:26 <Elukka> do we still need 8bpp sprites for stuff?
17:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there're 32bpp and 8bpp versions for all files
17:54:53 <Elukka> do we actually need a real sprite that's not a green box for 8bpp versions?
17:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it can be converted automatically, but i have only seen 8bpp->32bpp conversion scripts
17:55:43 <andythenorth> the only solution I can think of is to make it cheap to destroy water
17:55:49 <andythenorth> which is an unwanted effect
17:55:55 <Elukka> i could pretty easily make 32bpp versions of my existing sprites, just give them more accurate and better looking colors and stuff
17:56:21 <Elukka> like the compartment coaches there
17:57:29 <Belugas> andythenorth bath time!
17:58:15 <andythenorth> so auto-refit seems popular for FISH
17:58:25 <andythenorth> that requires an nml rewrite
17:58:30 <andythenorth> because I cba to work out the nfo
17:58:39 <Alberth> imho it makes sense for ships
17:58:41 <Afdal> Can someone tell me why I can't see signs anymore
17:58:51 <Afdal> Is there a new option somewhere that turns it off by default
17:58:51 <Alberth> you have disabled them?
17:58:54 <Afdal> other companies' signs that is
17:59:09 <Afdal> and their station names apparently
17:59:56 <Afdal> We can see our own signs but noone else's
18:00:17 <Alberth> there is an option in the option drop-down (3rd one from the left)
18:00:43 <Alberth> 'competitor signs and names displayed'
18:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: honestly, you need to talk to Oberhümer. i have no clue how 32bpp works or looks ingame
18:01:37 <Elukka> i think we're gonna need a new template for colors if we're doing 32bpp, and some other artistic standards too
18:02:10 <Elukka> my boxcar doesn't play ball with oberhümer's, visually, and his baggage car has much harsher shading than any other car in the game
18:02:15 <andythenorth> ships are probably just one python class. Sub-classing might be overkill.
18:02:32 <Elukka> i can adjust to his style, we just need to work out a common standard
18:02:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: planning a py-nml conversion of FISH
18:03:00 <andythenorth> wondering if I can parse the current nfo to get all the stats :P
18:03:14 <andythenorth> maybe the current nfo could be the config file :P
18:03:55 <Alberth> oh, I read it the other way around, but nml is working and nfo is not :p
18:04:11 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: in my mind one of the big advantages with 32bpp is that it's really easy and quick to do color and contrast adjustments and such, say, to make two sprites with incompatible coloring work well together
18:04:28 <Elukka> just a little playing with sliders in photoshop
18:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> again. talking to the wrong person.
18:04:47 <andythenorth> 32bpp is...not real TTD :P
18:05:04 <Elukka> true, eddi, i'm just rambling :P
18:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> me making the template green boxes was already quite a stretch of my abilities
18:05:24 <andythenorth> imho TTD is already too realistic, and could do with looking a bit more like Worms / Lemmings / Double Dragon / R-Type etc
18:05:39 <Elukka> 32bpp doesn't necessitate realism
18:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make the GRF :)
18:05:44 <Elukka> it's just a wider palette
18:06:00 <Elukka> the sprites i'm making still try to fit into the existing game world
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18:06:10 <Alberth> Elukka: but there are so few non-realistic newgrfs :(
18:06:30 <Elukka> i think FIRS looks pretty realistic :P
18:07:48 <Alberth> too many colours in 8bpp already :p
18:07:51 <Elukka> oh no, the r-word summoned belugas D:
18:08:59 <andythenorth> definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
18:09:01 <andythenorth> definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
18:09:03 <andythenorth> definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
18:09:06 <andythenorth> definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
18:09:19 <andythenorth> stupid Google images URLs :P
18:09:36 * Belugas likes to keep the folklor alive ;)
18:10:13 <andythenorth> I remember why I wasn't working on FISH
18:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: was there a movie about that in the nineties?
18:10:25 <andythenorth> I'm officially sulking about smoke for ships
18:11:14 <andythenorth> fuck it, let's just patch the damn thing
18:11:54 <andythenorth> I don't mind poking at it
18:12:10 <andythenorth> I'll write bad patches, you'll code review them until they're better
18:12:13 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Is there proper concept yet? AFAIR we had multiple different proposals.
18:12:43 <andythenorth> there's a lack of problem spec I think
18:12:58 <andythenorth> I prefer it when a dev just decides "this is neat"
18:13:02 <peter1138> I get up, and nothing gets me down
18:13:16 <peter1138> And I know, baby just how you feel
18:13:27 <peter1138> You gotta rollll with the punches and get to what's real
18:13:42 <michi_cc> I can code something, but maybe you'll still sulk because it still doesn't do what you want :)
18:14:13 <andythenorth> how to solve that?
18:14:33 <peter1138> Might as well jump (Jump!)
18:14:34 <michi_cc> By providing a proper poblem description.
18:14:50 <peter1138> < awesome guitar solo >
18:15:13 <andythenorth> michi_cc: the FS specs the problem, I could expand that... ;)
18:15:26 <andythenorth> - n effect vehicles
18:15:35 <andythenorth> - arbitrary x / y / z positions
18:16:09 <andythenorth> - ideally I would have animation control to control smoke timing per vehicle, but not essential
18:16:35 <andythenorth> - ideally I would be able to use animation control to specify smoke generation, independent of current acceleration algorithm used
18:17:02 <andythenorth> - the ability to create new effect vehicles
18:17:27 <andythenorth> - the ability to control what happens within the effect vehicle
18:17:39 <andythenorth> (i.e. they're fire and forget as far as I'm concerned)
18:18:03 <andythenorth> the two points above about animation control collapse to the same point I think
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18:22:14 <michi_cc> Okay, right now there's a property that allows to specify a single, game supplied effect position along the vehicle axis which may be overridden by a callback that is not periodically called.
18:24:54 * FLHerne wonders if BaNaNaS stands for anything
18:25:40 <andythenorth> michi_cc: the encoding of positions for new effect vehicles seems quite simple, I could probably patch that
18:26:02 <Beul> ok, still struggeling... Is there a way to enalbe trains to drive on my new rail type other than adding my rail to the compatible/powered list of other rail types?
18:26:23 <FLHerne> Ah. Missed that :-( . Thanks :D
18:26:41 <andythenorth> the spec for how to control effect vehicle generation baffles me :)
18:27:29 <michi_cc> You can change the traction type of the vehicle, but changing the compatible/powered lists is indeed the way to go (there's a reason those list are cumulative over multiple definitions).
18:34:23 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I considered periodic cb for smoke control. But seems also desirable to handle events like 'change of rail type', 'arrived at station' etc
18:34:51 <andythenorth> and possibly might need vars to check 'number of existing smoke vehicles' or such, although that might be very undesirable
18:35:04 <michi_cc> So basically the same principle as already present for animation with its triggers.
18:39:16 <peter1138> -bash: vim: command not found
18:39:23 <peter1138> -bash: nano: command not found
18:39:30 <peter1138> File name must be specified
18:39:33 <peter1138> this is going to go well
18:39:54 <Beul> michi_cc, maybe you could help me out here: I want to create a new rail type, but I want trains for other rail types to be able to drive in my new rail. How can i achieve that?
18:41:03 <michi_cc> By adding you rail type to the powered/compatible lists of other types.
18:42:41 <andythenorth> peter1138: 'edit' ? I had that on a system somewhere once :P
18:42:41 <Beul> so, the other rail type grf's need to be altered to allow their trains to drive on my rails?
18:44:53 <andythenorth> michi_cc: ideally the return value for an effect cb would be able to support newgrf effect vehicles in future
18:45:04 <andythenorth> without actually supporting them now :P
18:45:25 <andythenorth> that way the whole newgrf-effect-vehicles-must-be-specced shenanigan can be sidestepped
18:45:52 <michi_cc> Beul: No, for each other rail type you provide an addition to the compatible lists in your grf.
18:47:35 <Beul> thanks for the link, looked all over the wiki but did not find that page
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19:05:01 * andythenorth ponders cargo routing mechanics
19:05:14 <andythenorth> could we have plugins for 'cargo dispatching'
19:05:56 <andythenorth> choose one mechanic from those installed - per cargo (or route?)
19:06:11 <andythenorth> 'shortest', 'fastest', 'any' etc
19:07:09 <andythenorth> (in a YACD/dist environment)
19:07:44 <Alberth> it is mostly a matter of weighting
19:08:28 <Alberth> although I am not sure you'd want to have cargo piles taken into account when routing
19:08:46 <andythenorth> I think that's overkill
19:09:15 <Alberth> could be, but eg cdist does it to balance lines
19:09:38 <Alberth> on the other hand, you can also consider it to be a player challenge
19:10:15 <Alberth> but that also implies some form of controlling the flow I guess
19:17:14 <andythenorth> I figure that it's sufficient to have:
19:17:20 <andythenorth> - rules for loading / unloading cargo to vehicles
19:17:31 <andythenorth> - methods to assign weightings to nodes
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19:19:49 <Alberth> I was wondering whether an dijkstra-like algorithm could be run as part of a slow process, eg the tile loop
19:20:16 <Alberth> so you move routing calculations to the background
19:20:39 <andythenorth> last time I thought about it, I couldn't see any reason to run them very frequently
19:21:10 <Alberth> only when the player messes with his orders :p
19:21:28 <andythenorth> if the rule for loading/unloading cargo to a vehicle is based only on node weightings....that doesn't need D or A* or whatever
19:21:45 <andythenorth> if the player messes with orders, the cargo just stays on the station
19:21:52 <andythenorth> waiting for a valid vehicle to arrive
19:22:14 <andythenorth> removing a *node* might need recalculation?
19:22:34 <Alberth> D or A* are just alternatives to computing a routing (specific from some start to some destination)
19:22:48 <Alberth> yeah, or partial invalidation or so
19:23:36 <andythenorth> it would be interesting to know how long it took to calculate routes for a large number of source-destination pairs
19:23:36 <Alberth> the big mess are pax and mail probably, with many sources and many destinations
19:24:26 <Alberth> dijkstra computes all from one starting point (by iteratively taking the nearest one to the connected set)
19:24:26 <andythenorth> source-destination pairs aren't needed
19:24:37 <andythenorth> cargo-destination pairs are needed
19:25:25 <andythenorth> iirc there's simply a reverse dijkstra (etc) that does what is needed
19:25:37 <andythenorth> my knowledge is limited to a few wikipedia pages though :P
19:28:20 <Alberth> hmm, compute how to get to each industry that accepts cargo thus
19:28:35 <Alberth> (if you leave out pax)
19:30:13 <andythenorth> these were my thoughts from a few weeks ago
19:30:51 <andythenorth> for any cargo-destination pair, if there are cached weightings, the route only needs computing when the network topology changes
19:31:28 <andythenorth> however I think my network topology was based on vehicle orders, which might change often...?
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19:39:01 <Alberth> I mostly change the number of vehicles, and/or buoys
19:40:20 <Alberth> in your cargo destination graph, you can merge the graphs, I think
19:41:04 <Alberth> ie consider the industry the starting point, and all stations in its catchment area are connected
19:41:37 <andythenorth> if they're not connected graphs how does that work?
19:41:48 * andythenorth might have it figured actually
19:42:22 <Alberth> it's the same when I build 1 station in the catchment area, and then build 2 branches in different directions
19:43:00 <Alberth> the only change is that there is no cargo ever traveling over the last hop, but the routing does not care :p
19:43:47 <andythenorth> it seems so simple
19:43:52 * andythenorth wonders why it wouldn't work
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19:44:45 <Alberth> it also nicely handles cases where 2 branches meet again somewhere halfway in the map
19:46:37 <Alberth> I am somewhat wondering whether to keep several directions or not at such meet-points
19:47:04 <Alberth> as it gives you abilities to balance cargoes
19:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: YACD has weighting like this already implemented (for passengers). on creation, passengers choose a mode (fast/cheap/...) and then do routing based on this
19:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no player involvement
19:47:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: so assuming I understand the issue, that's how I ended up at plugins :P
19:48:12 <andythenorth> allowing player to choose
19:48:29 <Alberth> plugins are the user-access, but you also need information for the plugins
19:49:00 <Alberth> ie if all stations just point in one direction, you cannot balance anything
19:49:13 <andythenorth> two equally valid routes?
19:49:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the cargo packet stores a preference?
19:50:00 <Alberth> or even non-equally valid, if you take cargo amounts into account eg
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19:55:57 <andythenorth> ships are way easier to code than trucks
19:57:20 <Belugas> yeah... no wheels... that helps!
19:57:39 <andythenorth> no tractive effort, no vehicle weight
19:59:53 <Alberth> equal speed when loaded or unloaded :(
20:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and next thing you know you complain about not having multi-bay ships, realistic acceleration (including smoke emission) and improved bounding boxes for ships
20:01:05 <andythenorth> who said easy was good :P
20:01:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'll do the speed adjusting thing
20:01:40 <andythenorth> maybe by the time I've done the nml conversion, there'll be a smoke patch to test
20:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> is there such a thing as "unloaded" ships?
20:02:18 <Alberth> yeah, fish ships are higher in the water when unloaded
20:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> modern ships couldn't move without cargo, they have ballast water and stuff
20:02:34 <andythenorth> I wonder if they go faster or slower when in ballast
20:02:43 <andythenorth> or the same speed
20:02:54 <andythenorth> it's probably an economic decision
20:03:16 <Alberth> between "couldn't move without and move with ballast"? faster :)
20:03:39 <andythenorth> less weight, so physics suggests faster?
20:03:57 <andythenorth> with various assumptions :P
20:04:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: with refit changes are much higher that the ship is always loaded :)
20:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> they might accelerate faster, and have less water resistance, but they're also less stable
20:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's difficult to refit a log-raft
20:05:01 <andythenorth> you can refit between WOOD and TWOD iirc :P
20:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> although you might want to carry supplies on the way back
20:05:13 <andythenorth> you just gave me ideas :(
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20:05:29 <andythenorth> oh that's horrible :P
20:05:44 <andythenorth> the log tug could be changed to be a general tug
20:05:49 <andythenorth> with a capacity of say 4t
20:06:00 <andythenorth> but the option to refit to 400t of anything that can be towed :P
20:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: TWOD was never a real cargo, only a stray label
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20:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> no need to specifically remove it
20:10:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm recoding anyway, might as well ditch cruft ;)
20:20:56 <NGC3982> does wagon removal start with the first or the last wagons?
20:21:14 <NGC3982> i cant get to the wiki for some reason
20:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember from the start, but that's a little undefined behaviour
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21:09:35 <Elukka> open ottd, click online content, click update, everything is up to date
21:30:08 <Djohaal> latest render from the poop machine!
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22:17:34 <Zuu> Elukka: Someone got to make a patch that add a CLI arg to OpenTTD that schedules "update everything" to happen just after the external content have been scanned. Combine that with an updater and you will always run last nightly + last bananas content :-)
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continue to next day ⏵
