IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-06-12
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00:13:17 <vbnm> why cars and trains in openttd are not moving smoothly?
00:14:26 <Supercheese> A variety of factors, depending on how fast your machine is, how many vehicles are on screen, etc.
00:15:14 <vbnm> it happens also on singleplayer 64x64 with one train
00:15:29 <vbnm> it is connected with game ingine i think
00:15:52 <Supercheese> blitter issue perhaps
00:16:18 <Supercheese> I'm not well versed on that; I'll defer to someone else who knows it better
00:17:38 <vbnm> i have this in conf file: blitter = "32bpp-simple"
00:31:18 <vbnm> i mean these vehicles seems to no move pixel-by-pixel
00:31:38 <vbnm> even with blitter= (nothing)
00:32:02 <vbnm> especially in they move in N,S,E,W directions
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03:57:38 <ganesh> i want to provide tamil translation for OpenTTD!
03:58:23 <ganesh> Actually i forgot to mention my username "ganesh" in the request email to translator@openttd.org..
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04:04:19 <DabuYu> maybe send a second mail with your username to that address, i think that should be fine
04:04:37 <DabuYu> (i'm not a translator or coder here, just here out of interest)
04:04:58 <ganesh> oh! anyway thx for the info!
04:05:07 <DabuYu> it's often quiet here so just hang around for a while is the best i think
04:05:20 <DabuYu> but there are people here so don't worry :)
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04:16:13 <NataS> what's the most exotic language OTTD is avalable in?
04:17:11 <DabuYu> depends on your definition of exotic?
04:17:26 <NataS> Least amount of speakers?
04:17:47 <NataS> Most different from western languages?
04:18:31 <NataS> Arabic and Chinese are exotic linguisticly, but have more speakers than Tamal probably
04:19:58 <NataS> that link seems to be for translating the wiki
04:20:07 <NataS> the first one, not the one you just posted
04:20:47 <DabuYu> the first link is the one i got to when i clicked on the main page for 'translating openttd'
04:21:33 <telanus> Think the most exotic could be Ido, as it's the least translated
04:22:15 <DabuYu> and probably has the least speakers too, as it's based on Esperanto...
04:23:42 <NataS> also, we have traditional as well as simplified Chinese.
04:23:52 <NataS> just in case the Quin Emperor wants to play.
04:24:48 <DabuYu> they use traditional chinese in Taiwan
04:25:07 <DabuYu> that's 23 million people
04:25:27 <NataS> but it's unfinished and needs a translator.
04:25:38 <NataS> also we need an Ido translator
04:25:54 <DabuYu> try to find one out of the 200 users :)
04:25:54 <NataS> just in case Esperanto is too Eurocentric for you
04:26:06 <DabuYu> (200 worldwide Ido users)
04:26:18 <DabuYu> (in 2000 - not sure how many now)
04:26:21 <NataS> it's like Esperanto for hipsters.
04:27:30 <NataS> Every translation project needs joke languages
04:28:15 <DabuYu> how about pirate town names?
04:28:17 * NataS volunteers to do a pirate translation.
04:28:58 * DabuYu thinks NataS will put all text through a piratifyer script
04:29:01 <NataS> lots of klingon speakers use the latin alphebet though.
04:29:11 <NataS> nah, I'd manualy replace Everything with Yar
04:29:24 <NataS> and swap out nouns for nautical ones
04:29:33 <NataS> I'd make it so building boats would still be playable.
04:30:05 <NataS> also, the part that tells you that you have to buy a real copy of TTD (yeah right), would just give you a link to bittorent
04:32:23 <DabuYu> openttd in 1600-1800 has sailing boats
04:32:44 <NataS> too bad no newgrf disasters
04:32:48 <NataS> so you can't have pirates
04:33:05 <NataS> which would be much cooler than halfassed xcom reffrences that everyone disables anyways.
04:40:56 <NataS> Ido sounds really Romance for an international language.
04:41:08 <NataS> how is it better than Espranto?
04:41:28 <DabuYu> how many people will you find speaking both?
04:41:40 <DabuYu> if you find one, ask him/her :)
04:42:08 <NataS> I only learned about it from the fact that it
04:42:18 <NataS> it's the smallest translation of OTTD
04:42:28 <NataS> Answering my first question, but raising much more.
04:43:05 <DabuYu> maybe the translation could be dropped as the most important question is 'how many people will actually use it in openttd'
04:43:12 <NataS> >The US Army has published military phrase books in Esperanto,[14] to be used in war games by mock enemy forces.
04:43:30 <NataS> that's about the only real use of these manufactured languages i can think of.
04:43:53 <NataS> Colonial languages do just fine for trade languages
04:44:17 <DabuYu> it's like a kids secret language for grownups
04:44:50 <NataS> any complain of Eurocentrism falls flat when the alternative sounds like Spanish and french fucking while Russian watches in the corner masturbating
04:45:19 <NataS> LETS MAKE AN INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE OUT OF COLONIAL LANGUAGES
04:45:58 <NataS> if you can learn Espranto easily, you probably already speak or can easily learn a real one like french or english.
04:50:04 <NataS> Lobijan is probably better
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05:00:48 <NataS> i mean ntrolCay ickClay
05:02:07 <Rubidium> {BLACK}Electsay 'Ustomcay 1' (userway-efinedday) ogrammepray
05:02:26 <Rubidium> Ailwayray acktray ithway athpay andway oneway-ayway athpay ignalssay
05:03:49 <NataS> PenTTDOway is the correct translation
05:07:08 <Rubidium> well, the translation is trashed as nobody really maintained it (or the script that created it)
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05:51:19 <Rubidium> time for bed then ;)
05:55:18 <andythenorth> All bound for mu mu land
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07:22:41 <Supercheese> Well, good night folks
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15:32:52 <andythenorth> quiet forums day
15:40:00 <andythenorth> does it run ottd?
15:40:06 <andythenorth> can you compile BANDIT on it?
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15:42:39 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the case you found that broke my cargo routing idea....is solved
15:49:27 <LordAro> andythenorth: dunno, i have to locate a power supply first :)
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16:30:26 <frosch123> haha, i think tb scared everyone away
16:30:41 <frosch123> his post from yesterday is still the latest post in general ottd
16:36:59 <Xaroth> he does that from time to time
16:38:48 <Xaroth> he really did scare people
16:39:11 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 35 weeks, 4 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
16:40:17 <planetmaker> tbh, I miss the point or reference of that thread entirely
16:40:52 <andythenorth> TrueBrain had been too good for too long; the pressure got to him :P
16:41:29 <frosch123> planetmaker: didn't you also have to hand over all your insanity to tb upon joining the dev team?
16:42:05 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: a clear case of: damn, this community has gotten uptight :P
16:42:10 * andythenorth kept his own insanity safe here
16:42:11 <planetmaker> what? Hand over my insanity? Never I would part from it ;-)
16:42:57 <frosch123> "uhm... on the risk of sidetracking: the category is already readily shown in the general download window..." <- sorry planetmaker: i fail to understand that sentence :s
16:43:16 <frosch123> do you mean the category column in the list?
16:43:28 <planetmaker> frosch123: 'heightmap', 'newgrf' etc... is a column on its own in the general content downloald window
16:45:40 <andythenorth> can anyone else? I'm guessing flash got faster, and the interval is too short :P
16:47:21 <andythenorth> maybe I click too slow
16:47:31 <andythenorth> you can do copy combos if you're prepared to waste enough time
16:47:35 <planetmaker> but it's making a strain on the touchpad and my finger
16:48:16 <andythenorth> oh I got it working, 7 copies
16:48:26 <andythenorth> it had tracking in once, someone did hundreds of copies iirc
16:48:31 <andythenorth> or they hacked the tracking API :P
16:50:01 <andythenorth> those were fun days, but now I am responsible :P
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16:54:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth: sorry, wasn't paying attention. How did you fix it?
16:57:48 <andythenorth> you won't approve
16:57:59 <andythenorth> my proposal is based around nodes yes?
16:58:18 <andythenorth> and for any cargo going to a specific destination, each node has a weighting
16:58:37 <andythenorth> and any vehicle arriving at the station (node) has other nodes in its orders, each with a weighting
16:58:56 <andythenorth> the cargo will be loaded on the vehicle if any of the nodes in the order list have lower weighting than current node
16:59:35 <andythenorth> if I change how the weighting is calculated, then it will load on your long transfer scheme
17:00:08 <andythenorth> so if you have, say 7 nodes in the transfer chain, the start node is weighted 7, and the next one 6 and so on, so it's ok
17:00:23 <andythenorth> the other, shorter route would have a node weighted 1
17:00:31 <andythenorth> so cargo would be transported by both routes
17:00:48 <andythenorth> but you could control that via the frequency + capacity of vehicles
17:01:07 <FLHerne> That sounds more useful :-)
17:01:35 <andythenorth> but maybe it should all be done simutrans way; cargo is routed, via waybills specifying route
17:01:40 <andythenorth> then valid vehicles pick it up
17:02:45 <andythenorth> so there would be a cargo flow 'coal from tinton mines to frampington power station'
17:03:04 * FLHerne doesn't like YACD-style routing
17:03:05 <andythenorth> which would be routed as 'any route', 'go via xyz', 'go via xyz, then abc' etc
17:03:30 <andythenorth> I don't want a system that tries to simplify routing, then adds more orders and more clicking :P
17:06:04 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you don't like YACD style routing because....?
17:09:08 <Elukka> i like yacd style routing and wish it worked as well as cargodist :/
17:09:29 <FLHerne> Because I want to be able to send cargo wherever I want, not where the game wants it :P
17:17:30 <Prof_Frink> Every gram of livestock, grain and steel to a factory in one corner of the map, and goods to a city in the far corner?
17:18:45 <FLHerne> Right on all but the goods. I send those everywhere by pax train :D
17:19:44 <andythenorth> so what if cargo was routed
17:19:56 <andythenorth> where it's routed is a setting
17:20:03 <andythenorth> you can set a route, or the game can set a route
17:20:18 <andythenorth> depending on game style you want
17:21:08 <andythenorth> then the actual routing is handled by [some rules]
17:21:29 <andythenorth> a start node and an end node are always present
17:21:38 <andythenorth> and the player can force intermediate nodes
17:21:47 <andythenorth> or let the game route according to [rules]
17:23:05 <andythenorth> why did I never play civ? I like SM games
17:26:51 <Pinkbeast> andy: selection effect. The person like you who has the time to do all those OTTD sets is the one who didn't ever play Civ.
17:33:08 <andythenorth> maybe I should get a copy of Civ :P
17:33:21 <andythenorth> Civ probably needs big trucks anyway
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17:45:50 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you just want to check civilization games, freeciv is worth a try
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24340 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 1 changes by telanus
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by kyrm
17:46:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 4 changes by telk5093
17:46:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 10 changes by Peymanpn
17:46:11 <andythenorth> I think more likely I want to spend 10 years playing it :D
17:48:12 <andythenorth> is it practical for cargo packets to store a route?
17:48:16 <andythenorth> probably not per packet
17:48:24 <andythenorth> but they could have a pointer to a route pool?
17:56:15 <FLHerne> Are newgrf buoys possible yet?
17:58:09 * FLHerne imagines a wide variety of them :-)
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18:00:01 <Terkhen> andythenorth: no idea :P
18:02:22 <frosch123> they store the id of their source station
18:02:31 <frosch123> so instead you could store the id of the source order
18:03:02 <frosch123> since implicit orders all loading places have an order actually
18:03:30 <frosch123> you just need some way to keep orders when they are deleted from the vehicle as long as the cargo exists :p
18:03:31 * andythenorth has ideas for cleanly separated layers of cargo routing
18:03:58 <andythenorth> probably foolish
18:04:18 <frosch123> hmm, otoh, a single order index could not represent transfers
18:04:39 <frosch123> there is no releation betweeen vehicle orders and routes, is there?
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18:04:52 <frosch123> routes could consist of the orders of multipel vehicles
18:04:59 <andythenorth> routes are nodes
18:05:12 <andythenorth> (nodes imply links I guess ):P
18:07:15 <andythenorth> route would be: source [optional intermediate nodes] destination
18:13:49 * andythenorth ponders two options
18:14:30 <andythenorth> - pre-compute the entire route with the pathfinder, cache
18:14:48 <andythenorth> on arrival at a station, cargo packet looks up next node on route
18:15:19 <andythenorth> - store the weighting of previous station in the cargo packet,
18:15:34 <andythenorth> on arrival at any station, unload if weighting is lower than previous station
18:15:47 <andythenorth> second option is more fluid, but will have horrible edge cases
18:20:11 * andythenorth just invented a form of 'shunting' based on cargo-vehicle-container routes :P
18:21:23 <andythenorth> give vehicles a certain number of 'slots'
18:21:48 <andythenorth> ach, we've done this idea before :)
18:21:55 <andythenorth> but without the idea of giving cargo routes
18:22:17 <andythenorth> it works best for trains, not other vehicle types
18:26:31 <FLHerne> Are ships with more than one cargo possibel?
18:26:50 <FLHerne> s/possibel/possible/, even :-(
18:27:18 <FLHerne> Can I have some in FISH please? :P
18:27:27 <Yexo> FLHerne: it's not currently possible
18:27:37 <Yexo> with code changes it could become possible, I think andythenorth referred to that
18:27:47 <andythenorth> I haven't read those parts of code
18:28:01 <andythenorth> my guess is it's a patch more on the lines of 'tedious' than 'brainfuck'
18:28:30 <andythenorth> as well as core game, it would need extension of newgrf spec for things like
18:28:36 <andythenorth> 'most common cargo type on this ship'
18:28:42 <andythenorth> 'all cargo types on this ship'
18:29:03 <andythenorth> and gui work for refitting one vehicle to n cargos
18:29:42 <andythenorth> for ships, providing is as 'n holds' might be nicest, but that might be considered not generic enough
18:29:48 <andythenorth> and possibly not good for PAX :P
18:29:50 <FLHerne> Multiple 'holds' would make autorefit more useful :-)
18:31:35 <NataS> I'd love to see airplanes and boats hold mixed cargos
18:31:50 <NataS> within reason, Oil and Grain and Coal should probably require specalized ships
18:32:08 <FLHerne> Also, can ships be animated? Or is the wake just a fixed pixel-sequence thing?
18:32:11 <NataS> question, has anybody transported water by boat?
18:32:58 <andythenorth> FLHerne: can be animated, the work to do it would suck
18:33:18 <andythenorth> and yes, water tank ships exist, as do orange juice tankers
18:33:21 <FLHerne> Is there a maximum number of animation stages?
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18:33:54 <andythenorth> might be 255, or some bigger number
18:33:59 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki would tell you
18:34:15 * andythenorth is assuming ships have animation :P
18:34:28 <FLHerne> If some of those were entirely transparent... ;)
18:37:55 <FLHerne> Someone tell me why whales are a bad idea :P
18:38:14 <Alberth> why whales are a bad idea
18:38:21 <NataS> because newgrf disasters are not implemented
18:38:31 <NataS> or do you mean a whaling industry?
18:39:06 <NataS> that's because ocean industries are still hardlinked into oil rigs, so they have to produce PAX and accept helicopters.
18:39:10 <FLHerne> No, whales as ships :-)
18:39:25 <NataS> what cargo would whales carry?
18:39:30 <Yexo> disaster: whale hunters arrive
18:39:45 <FLHerne> 1 person, presumably :P
18:40:03 <NataS> disaster: Sea shepard harasses your oil tankers.
18:40:15 <FLHerne> If ships can be animated and some stages invisible, whales would be possible?
18:40:41 <NataS> those could be animated as shadows underwater
18:40:43 <Yexo> no idea if animation for ships is possible though
18:41:00 <NataS> Heck, supercavitating submarines would be cool for fast future ships
18:41:18 <NataS> Uhh, FISH ships raise or lower in the water when loading/unloading
18:41:23 <NataS> That's an animation isn't it?
18:42:07 <NataS> oh, just different sprites for multiple load levels?
18:42:27 <andythenorth> hmm, all vehicles claim to have a motion counter
18:43:16 <andythenorth> can't see any animation varaction 2, or triggers
18:43:23 <andythenorth> I guess that's tiles-only stuff
18:44:41 * FLHerne hasn't tried NewGRF development yet
18:46:18 <NataS> you'd need multible frames, when it stop's it's at the surface, then as it accelerates it dives, and at full speed you see a wake of bubbles on the surface as it supercavitates.
18:47:28 <Yexo> don't ships slow down in curves?
18:47:57 <frosch123> you can animate ships bases on the movement counter or depending on time
18:48:33 <frosch123> i think there are steam engines with animated rods
18:48:49 <frosch123> though now i actually wonder whether you can see that without extrazoom :p
18:49:31 <Yexo> although you could do stuff with that like: submerged when in the water, above water when (un)loading, you can't make it dive when leaving the dock
18:50:14 <andythenorth> Yexo: check speed
18:50:27 <andythenorth> that's how FISH hydrofoils elevate :)
18:50:40 <frosch123> i don't think that ships slow in curves
18:50:49 <frosch123> but they do not deaccelerate
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18:50:56 <andythenorth> ship handling is pretty basic
18:51:19 <frosch123> so diving down should work (unless there is a breakdown), but diving up fails
18:51:28 <andythenorth> it will come up like a cork :P
18:51:43 <andythenorth> ship animation is not a high priority :)
18:51:55 <andythenorth> I haven't found any use for it so far
18:52:06 <andythenorth> I considered animating smoke :P
18:52:16 <frosch123> with extra zoom you clearly have to make the radar thingie rotate
18:52:49 <frosch123> sailing ships could animate the sails
18:52:58 <frosch123> smaller ships could ride on the waves
18:53:15 <andythenorth> I would settle for smoke effect vehicles :P
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18:54:11 <frosch123> there is now a flag to hide the breakdown effect
18:54:26 <frosch123> so you can just animate the vehicle itself while it is broken down
18:54:40 <frosch123> fish ships should really turn over on breakdowns :p
18:55:20 <Yexo> they should lose part of their cargo when they break down and turn over :p
18:57:18 <andythenorth> that's new disasters
18:57:46 <FLHerne> Are those planned? :P
18:58:04 <frosch123> depends on what you consider "planned"
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19:06:52 <Alberth> you should eat more during dinner instead
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19:31:12 <andythenorth> most of our important work happens in the pub
19:31:44 <Alberth> Knogle: nah, informal meetings!
19:32:59 <TrueBrain> stupid british people
19:33:05 <TrueBrain> too much business happens drunk
19:33:22 <Alberth> the least drunk persone wins :)
19:40:19 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: stupid? :P
19:40:29 <andythenorth> last css I'm writing for you (this week) :P
19:40:53 <TrueBrain> good; I wouldnt want you to get overworked :D
19:43:54 <andythenorth> is 'the pub' why Britain is not much good at tech? :P
19:47:46 <TrueBrain> you made it so easy
19:53:59 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Did you get carried away by the abuse discussion and missed my suggestion just before Hyronymus. Or shall I take your silence as you agree completely and there is nothing to discuss. ;-)
19:54:57 <TrueBrain> Zuu: I read it, kinda anyway; atm I just filter through things that need replying
19:55:04 <TrueBrain> and stuff that can be handled when we sit down to rewrite it
19:55:38 <TrueBrain> but I like the idea to split it in deps/suggestions
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19:58:06 <TrueBrain> kinda wanted to take the day of off politics, but replies like Hyro need some stearing to get a reply that contributed; no offense or anything, but vague replies only make me puzzle; I need clear reactions like you did Zuu :)
20:02:09 <andythenorth> [god] save us from well-meaning suggestions made by people with no idea....
20:02:12 <andythenorth> ...what the problem is
20:02:27 <andythenorth> I have to do a lot of work getting people to generate ideas
20:02:46 <TrueBrain> it is one of the hardest parts of being an IT person I think
20:02:47 <andythenorth> and I have learnt to never criticise or shut down an idea because it leads to silence
20:02:52 <TrueBrain> making the other part understand what you need to progress
20:03:01 <andythenorth> but I have also learnt to be very clear on what the fricking problem is :P
20:03:11 <TrueBrain> hehe; indeed. Try to positively induce better ideas ;)
20:03:21 <andythenorth> don't waste time solving non problems
20:03:32 <TrueBrain> and, like said yesterday: that is more for version N
20:03:38 <andythenorth> we'll all be dead soon, don't spend precious minutes on retrograde bullshit :P
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20:03:56 * andythenorth will go back to doing work in the pub
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20:51:59 <TrueBrain> monster thread created; andythenorth asked for it, andythenorth gets it :P
20:53:38 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: "Many would ask: why not PHP?"
20:53:44 <andythenorth> ^ surely the answer to that is obvious? :P
20:53:56 * andythenorth somewhere got a prejudice against PHP, with zero evidence :P
20:53:58 <TrueBrain> I still felt the need to answer it :)
20:54:45 <andythenorth> it is bad behaviour from me
20:54:58 <andythenorth> I have never written any PHP, I don't know why I think it's so meh
20:55:10 <andythenorth> mostly because lots of bad developers can do PHP and PHP only :P
20:55:19 <andythenorth> it's a social judgement not a technical judgement :P
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21:32:54 <Sacro> Guybrush: don't ask to ask
21:34:45 <Guybrush> Oh, I see. Rivers, in the map editor. Where do I find them?
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22:00:46 <andythenorth> do we like tree structures?
22:00:58 * andythenorth is not convinced, don't have any good case tho
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