IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-06-11
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05:43:32 <George> Can the house get the information about amount of food, delivered to town this month?
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07:14:16 <Rubidium> Xaroth: good night then ;)
07:14:16 <John`Doe> Xaroth: good night then ;)
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09:01:45 <Xaroth> Rubidium: crazy man :P
09:02:41 <planetmaker> who's not crazy? :-P
09:03:00 <Xaroth> depends on who you ask
09:04:02 <Xaroth> planetmaker: I must show my admiration for the team for being able to remain somewhat sane with all those trolls....
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10:05:41 * andythenorth ponders this silly Bananas debate
10:06:04 <planetmaker> have a banana instead ;-) Or maybe an orange
10:07:36 <andythenorth> honestly I would rather see Simuscape thrive and not have these issues
10:07:58 <andythenorth> I've read the posts, and there are numerous people who are genuinely upset and hurt by what goes on at tt-forums
10:08:14 <andythenorth> including some that might be surprising
10:08:46 <andythenorth> if two communities are what is needed, I would rather see them rub along, with civil interchange
10:11:30 <FLHerne> What is the alleged problem with tt-forums, anyway?
10:12:14 <FLHerne> i.e. why the Simuscape community #split off
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10:49:28 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the forums are, for some, quite a robust environment
10:50:00 <andythenorth> it can be difficult for some to enjoy that
10:50:39 <andythenorth> there is a small irony - some of those who make it a difficult environment are also people who have moved, in some cases dramatically, to Simuscape
10:51:11 <andythenorth> which makes me wonder if Simuscape is really going to pan out to be the friendly, supportive environment they're hoping for, or wether it ultimately implodes in drama
10:51:27 <andythenorth> but I wish it success
10:51:41 <andythenorth> I would rather see multiple thriving tt communities, and no sense of tribalism
11:17:10 <cornishpasty> NGC3982: I agree
11:22:55 <NGC3982> but so very, very german
11:23:05 <NGC3982> describes love as a tool
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13:57:02 <TrueBrain> user joins. user shows facebook url with random picture; do I dare to open?
13:59:29 <telanus> it's just a Nestle Truck :D
14:00:50 <telanus> ThHink I saw the shortest Abnormal load truck in a few years today.
14:02:40 <telanus> It was about 15-17m, but was carrying a truck on it's load deck, and that truck was carrying a small 1.5ton truck
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14:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i think one of my HDDs is displaying aging symptoms
14:23:27 <Eddi|zuHause> now... what does /mnt/disk3 map to wrt physical disks?
14:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> mount says /dev/mapper/_dev_sdc4
14:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that helps :p
14:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently that is a symlink to /dev/dm-0
14:40:10 <FLHerne> Aargh...kpovmodeler.org doesn't even exist now :-(
14:40:27 * FLHerne looks at a guinea pig :P
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14:54:52 <Belugas> Bonjour a toi aussi, Rubidium :)
14:54:53 <TrueBrain> ugh, go visit eachother or something
14:55:26 <andythenorth> bonjour TrueBrain
14:57:02 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: it's always fun when design suggestions for a system are made by people who have not looked at what the system is / does :)
14:57:14 <andythenorth> as the owner of a software company, it's one of my favourite things to deal with :)
14:57:17 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is .... special, so to say :)
14:57:26 <TrueBrain> I mean, at least login once?
14:57:35 <TrueBrain> I am already happy they are replying in a constructive way
14:57:55 <TrueBrain> and, with good ideas between them :)
15:00:35 <andythenorth> as a manager / company owner I try to always remember it
15:01:38 <andythenorth> maybe I should make a system diagram of bananas?
15:02:05 <TrueBrain> for our customers (I work for a software company / ISP), we have apiece of software which requires them to be on the site they report issues with
15:02:08 <TrueBrain> including screenshots etc
15:03:07 <andythenorth> so I missed the ToS on signup, I guess my eyes aren't working early in the morning
15:03:25 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: perceptually fine, do you want an actual time to load report?
15:03:39 <TrueBrain> after first load, it is client-cached
15:03:52 <TrueBrain> and it is almost finished! \o/
15:04:39 <FLHerne> What's that supposed to look like?
15:04:50 <TrueBrain> like www.openttd.org :P
15:05:00 <TrueBrain> only much faster / better
15:05:07 <andythenorth> the selected state is the same on both navbars, I find that a bit strange to see personally
15:05:20 <TrueBrain> what would you suggest?
15:05:24 <andythenorth> green for second
15:05:34 <andythenorth> green and orange together is a bit naughty, but fits the theme
15:05:38 <TrueBrain> are you in any means to make such an image, by any chance? :P
15:05:42 <andythenorth> or just invert the grey
15:05:59 <andythenorth> right now I'm holding one baby and preventing the toddler doing damage to self / house / lego trains
15:06:05 <andythenorth> if you're here later, I can do it
15:06:18 <TrueBrain> I suck at that greatly
15:06:22 <andythenorth> a variation on the over state would do, just a bit lighter
15:06:22 <TrueBrain> Osai used to do it for me :D
15:06:26 <FLHerne> Should it be "Test 𤭢 Message Second line Test 𤭢 Message 3rd"? Or am I supposed to be seeing newlines there?
15:06:33 <andythenorth> I'm not a great designer, but I can make internets
15:06:39 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: no; you don't have a utf-8 charset loaded :P
15:06:55 <TrueBrain> some weird chinese symbols are there
15:06:58 <TrueBrain> owh, the lines you mean
15:07:04 <TrueBrain> yeah, there is no \n -> <br> yet
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15:07:21 <FLHerne> Oh, ok. And I should install some fonts :D
15:07:30 <TrueBrain> almost nobody has it :P
15:07:35 <TrueBrain> it is a very odd char :P
15:07:58 <TrueBrain> but as it turns out, I am alone there :D
15:08:32 <TrueBrain> have you seen the serverlist filter? :P
15:08:39 <TrueBrain> it needs a nice CSS, but it does work nicely :D
15:09:28 <FLHerne> Will Bananas have the second bar as well?
15:09:55 <TrueBrain> most important reason for this rewrite btw, is language support
15:11:46 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: when do we get to rebuild the bananas frontend ? :P
15:12:13 <TrueBrain> after that? I dunno :P
15:12:28 <andythenorth> I am away most of June
15:12:44 <TrueBrain> I told in dev-channel already, if all it takes for SAC to upload his files to BaNaNaS that it looks better, it is a small effort to at least do that .. as it is heavily overdue anyway :P
15:13:27 <andythenorth> I have one patch on it that Rubidiu* committed last year
15:13:40 <andythenorth> but otherwise lack of dev environment blocks me :P
15:14:02 <andythenorth> django I don't know, but looks trivial, similar to the other python frameworks
15:14:05 <TrueBrain> depending how this talk with SAC et al goes, we might want to revisit how BaNaNaS works
15:14:30 <TrueBrain> if they really want deleting of old versions, we are on an impas in these regards
15:14:36 <TrueBrain> and we might want to lean more towards grfcrawler
15:14:41 <TrueBrain> no clue how, or what, or ...
15:14:50 <andythenorth> I am fine with it
15:15:09 <TrueBrain> I don't really like it, as I like the openess BaNaNaS offers, but we will have to see
15:15:14 <andythenorth> are you familiar with saying "that's a version [n] feature"?
15:15:19 <TrueBrain> SAC appears very willing to solve the issue, and I am sure others are too, so
15:15:25 <andythenorth> [we do it with software customers]
15:15:26 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is what I tell my boss all the time :P
15:15:35 <TrueBrain> yeah, for 1.1 .. which never happens
15:15:45 <andythenorth> meanwhile we're shipping version n-1
15:15:52 <andythenorth> often the n-1 features ar
15:15:59 <andythenorth> turn out to be good enough
15:16:16 <TrueBrain> and sometimes customers don't know what they really want
15:16:22 <TrueBrain> they think they want n, but really, they don't
15:17:13 <andythenorth> often our customers specify n before using our app or any competitors
15:17:24 <andythenorth> when they use n-1 they're happy enough
15:17:51 <TrueBrain> back to BaNaNaS, a common complaints is the many many types we have
15:17:58 <TrueBrain> and the clouded overview it presents new users with
15:18:07 <TrueBrain> we sort by upload or download count
15:18:15 <TrueBrain> I always wanted to make some kind of review board
15:18:18 <TrueBrain> where you rate uploads
15:18:28 <TrueBrain> it might be a good time to add that
15:18:40 <TrueBrain> too often the question is asked: what grfs are good to play with
15:18:43 <TrueBrain> there is n o answer of course
15:18:46 <andythenorth> star ratings are very problematic btw
15:19:00 <andythenorth> allow sharing of presets?
15:19:12 <TrueBrain> but they need some kind of rating too
15:19:21 <TrueBrain> or indication of playtype
15:19:31 <TrueBrain> like I understood Pikka's set introduces a different economy
15:19:34 <andythenorth> ratings is a messy social problem :)
15:19:34 <TrueBrain> which for me is really interesting
15:19:39 <TrueBrain> but by accident I found that out
15:19:45 <TrueBrain> yeah, so we need something ... more clever
15:20:26 <andythenorth> I want 'actual time played with'
15:20:35 <andythenorth> but that needs an illegal 'phone home' feature :P
15:20:36 <TrueBrain> interesting idea/concept
15:20:57 <TrueBrain> we known which grfs run on servers
15:21:03 <TrueBrain> that can be an indication, although an unfair one
15:21:42 <TrueBrain> what I see in logs, that atm people just "Select All" + "Download"
15:21:57 <TrueBrain> that for sure doesn't work .. but changing that ingame ... no clue how
15:22:15 <TrueBrain> I had some weird ideas like: inclient you can login, then it syncs your files with the server
15:22:20 <TrueBrain> (server = openttd.org)
15:22:27 <TrueBrain> at openttd.org you can select which files you want for your game
15:22:31 <TrueBrain> basically, prepare your whole game
15:23:15 <andythenorth> so you could choose other people's pre-prepared games?
15:23:17 <TrueBrain> as ingame it will never be easy to select specific grfs I guess :P
15:23:28 <TrueBrain> for all I care, with all the settings included
15:23:34 <TrueBrain> but at least with the grfs
15:23:36 <andythenorth> 'add to my game'
15:23:41 <andythenorth> 'download my game'
15:23:58 <TrueBrain> I also have been pondering about ideas like: upload your savegame into "the cloud"
15:24:04 <TrueBrain> so you can play where-ever
15:24:08 <TrueBrain> I often had that need with OpenTTD :P
15:24:13 <TrueBrain> had to put it on an USB-stick
15:24:19 <TrueBrain> but that is a bit outside the scope of BaNaNaS :P
15:24:37 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Put your savegames inside dropbox? :-)
15:24:45 <TrueBrain> blathijs: lolz, valid suggestion
15:24:50 <cornishpasty> andythenorth: public ftp
15:24:50 <TrueBrain> never crossed my mind, while I have it installed
15:24:53 <andythenorth> 'upgrade your space for $15' :P
15:25:06 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Ironically I don't actually use dropbox ;-p
15:25:13 <TrueBrain> but given the amount of HD space we have on our server, we could also allow it on openttd.org
15:25:19 <TrueBrain> anyway, just random ideas I sometimes have
15:25:24 <TrueBrain> to make OpenTTD more ... modern
15:25:33 <andythenorth> savegames get....big :o
15:25:44 <TrueBrain> bandwidth is the only issue really
15:25:49 <TrueBrain> (yours, not ours :P)
15:25:50 <cornishpasty> Charge people for online storage!
15:26:09 <cornishpasty> You get 5MB free then £100/byte
15:26:18 <TrueBrain> as long as I am SysOp of OpenTTD, that will never happen
15:26:35 <cornishpasty> TrueBrain: good idea for next April 1 though
15:27:09 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what about my $2 per grf idea :P
15:27:17 <andythenorth> it would make somebody rich
15:27:27 <andythenorth> you own the store
15:27:33 <andythenorth> I get 30% less tax :(
15:27:51 <TrueBrain> the main issue with grfs, they are all so differently
15:27:57 <TrueBrain> there is not one golden file
15:28:14 <TrueBrain> when starting, the download counter was sufficient
15:28:19 <TrueBrain> but as people downlolad EVERYTHING, it is mute
15:28:51 <andythenorth> I proposed a reviewer system once, where you could 'see what pikka is playing' or whatever
15:29:07 <andythenorth> 'rate this combination' rather than 'rate this grf'
15:29:33 <andythenorth> rating grfs in isolation is nearly pointless
15:29:37 <TrueBrain> I guess I should open a topic about it, and hope for the same kind of replies as I got the last 48h on copyright stuff
15:29:54 * andythenorth will put on 'filter out stupid idea glasses'
15:30:02 * andythenorth is a low patience person
15:30:05 <TrueBrain> I kinda like my idea of online profiles, that might be useful
15:30:20 <andythenorth> 'my favourite grfs'
15:30:24 <TrueBrain> but so yeah .. BaNaNaS need a strong redesign, in concept more than code :)
15:30:26 <andythenorth> just link to twitter
15:30:36 <andythenorth> tweet my grf combination
15:30:47 <TrueBrain> its not the worst idea
15:31:02 <TrueBrain> gives a lot of fuzz to all his followers
15:31:10 <TrueBrain> they might click it
15:31:18 <TrueBrain> kinda like the idea :)
15:31:23 <andythenorth> could just extend bananas so you get a profile even if not a content author
15:31:37 <andythenorth> for posting reviews, combinations, upload your savegame
15:31:41 <TrueBrain> yeah, that is what I was thinking about
15:31:53 <TrueBrain> as that goes in side with some old idea of allowing authentication for the client
15:32:01 <TrueBrain> in regards of joining servers which wants some kind of filtering
15:32:14 <TrueBrain> but that is a lot of work involved :D
15:32:27 <andythenorth> we build those kind of apps
15:32:32 <TrueBrain> there once was also a planned rewrite for the MS, to allow more information
15:32:36 <andythenorth> some of them, we don't build anymore, too much work
15:32:41 <TrueBrain> but as nobody replied on Rbs topic, he never implemented it :(
15:32:57 <TrueBrain> people tend to forget developers need praise from time to time
15:33:05 <TrueBrain> (for allt he right reasons)
15:33:14 <TrueBrain> too many feel OpenTTD is a given, and forget the effort involved :)
15:33:27 * TrueBrain brings up the $2 per grf idea again :P
15:33:42 <andythenorth> charging for stuff brings expectations of service
15:33:59 <TrueBrain> I have no interest in charging money :)
15:34:16 <TrueBrain> interesting ideas are flowing from you andythenorth
15:34:21 <planetmaker> nah. A setup fee :-P
15:34:25 <TrueBrain> lets talk more when you have time, I am sure we can cook up something nice
15:34:36 <andythenorth> want to play? donate to charity
15:34:45 <TrueBrain> atm I have sufficient stuff to write for OpenTTD; I might even bring myself doing it :P
15:34:57 <TrueBrain> (all web-software is 3+ years old ... its terrible!)
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15:35:32 <andythenorth> we're closing a 7 year old app this week
15:35:40 <TrueBrain> owh, I also still have to build a Jira test setup, so others can see how good Jira is for bug-tracker :P
15:35:58 <andythenorth> I need to get off Trac at work
15:36:07 <TrueBrain> Redmine is good only if you have 1 project
15:36:09 <andythenorth> and we have zendesk for customer support
15:36:17 <TrueBrain> it works terrible for multiproject overview
15:36:30 <andythenorth> not worse than trac :P
15:36:31 <TrueBrain> Jira is a very large commercial product, so there are a lot of things in and on it
15:36:36 <TrueBrain> but you can filter most things out pretty easily
15:36:49 <TrueBrain> so after the setup time, it lokos nice, works fast, and has tons of kewl features
15:37:02 <TrueBrain> I love the Agile support most I guess
15:37:17 <TrueBrain> Grann support, clear overviews and reports for the managers
15:37:25 <TrueBrain> and very cheap if you have < 10 users in your company
15:37:42 * andythenorth adds it to the list
15:37:49 <andythenorth> redmine is....ok
15:38:02 <TrueBrain> we used it for a while
15:38:03 <andythenorth> anything is better than trac
15:38:11 <TrueBrain> but after a month of 6, it became so messy ...
15:38:18 <andythenorth> trac was once brilliant, but life moves on
15:38:20 <TrueBrain> trac is the most terrible product I have seen for that :P
15:38:45 <andythenorth> better than the one we wrote in house :P
15:38:53 <TrueBrain> I have to add, we just switched to Jira, so it might become an issue in the future
15:38:57 <TrueBrain> but so far .. omg :P
15:39:21 <andythenorth> is it hosted? Or do you host yourself?
15:39:37 <TrueBrain> (10$ per month or 10$ a year, basically)
15:39:56 <TrueBrain> make sure to also check Greenhopper and Bonfire
15:40:00 <andythenorth> hosting yourself is good if you have sysop on tap
15:40:13 <TrueBrain> I guess it is a good thing I am a sysop :D
15:40:37 <TrueBrain> other nice pieces of software to integrated in Jira: FishEye and Crucible
15:40:44 <TrueBrain> FishEye shows your SVN/git/hg in a nice way
15:40:49 <TrueBrain> Crucible alows patch reviewing
15:41:02 <TrueBrain> Bamboo OpenTTD uses for auto-compiling (also from the same people)
15:42:15 <TrueBrain> and if you check who uses it ..... you understand why I talk about it this foundly
15:42:46 <TrueBrain> Coca Cola, Paypal, Ebay, Netflix, MTV, Facebook, UPS, NASA, ......
15:42:53 <TrueBrain> I wonder if it is true, but I guess
15:42:56 <TrueBrain> its on their frontpage :P
15:43:48 <TrueBrain> enough promoting of Atlassian :P
15:43:51 <TrueBrain> I am off for some dinner
15:49:19 <Rubidium> I am off for some breakfast ;)
15:50:30 <andythenorth> i am holding a baby
15:51:55 <FLHerne> I was holding a guinea pig a few minutes ago :D Less wriggly, actually... :P
16:05:57 <SAC> Okey, I have no idea who you are though... ;p
16:09:23 <SAC> Oh well, I'll get back later on...
16:10:10 <andythenorth> SAC: TrueBrain is away having some food, but will be back later and is looking for Bananananas suggestions
16:11:07 <SAC> Okey! Well, I assume he's not the only one? For this to work out in the right direction, we all need to participate one way or another...
16:12:47 <Zuu> 17:23:50 < TrueBrain> people tend to forget developers need praise from time to time <--- Thanks for your post on SCP :-)
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16:18:16 <TrueBrain> Zuu: hehe; I was heavily surprised someone wrote that :D
16:18:38 <TrueBrain> SCP is an AI/GS lib they wrote; something I once claimed nobody would ever do, so why implement it in the C++ side
16:19:12 <TrueBrain> so sometimes all it needs is 1 word: wow :D
16:21:22 <TrueBrain> either way: hi :) Glad you made it over here
16:22:23 <SAC> Thank you! I've been here before - in different ways... ;p Anyway TrueBrain, not to confuse too much, but should we focus on the BaNaNaS Suggestion thread rather than the copright one?
16:22:38 <TrueBrain> first off, I have to say, I am happy you are open for dialog; often I see people who are against something, are against it for no reason and just keep bashing over and over and over. It is refreshing for me you are not one of those people. It has to be said :D
16:23:10 <TrueBrain> As far as copyright goes, I think all has been said and done. A learning experience for all, lets call it, and leave it at that :)
16:23:16 <SAC> Well, I may have different opinions in matters, but that doesn't mean I can't see the bigger picture...
16:24:07 <SAC> We cannot afford to have these arguings over and over again, as the only result is that people will loose interest in the game overall...
16:24:23 <TrueBrain> true words; happens a lot, sadly :(
16:24:44 <TrueBrain> so, lets get constructive: can you elaborate on your upload issue with BaNaNaS?
16:24:55 <TrueBrain> I have always been curious about this, but never the means to ask :D
16:25:36 <SAC> Yes BaNaNaS, I'm writing something that may reflect my point of views, concerning not only the BaNaNaS but the community as a whole. If we're going to make a change it needs to be reflected within the entore community...
16:26:30 <SAC> ...and along with this we're dsicussing the subject also over at Simuscape, both in public members section and inside the admins section...
16:26:58 <TrueBrain> discussion is good; as long as people are open and acceptance to others opinions, it can only lead to better things :)
16:27:54 <TrueBrain> (PS: did you know simuscape looks a lot like simutrans; any relation between the two, or just pure luck?)
16:28:07 <SAC> Well, that's the purpose! Be we ALL need to participate one way or another for this to work out properly in the end... Doing things half way through measn we're soon back on square One again...
16:28:32 <SAC> Pure luck eally! I don't even play Simutrans... :)
16:29:06 <SAC> But I do like dark colors... ;p
16:29:09 <TrueBrain> I can of course only talk for myself, but as System Operator, you have my attention
16:30:03 <SAC> Yeah, but this isn't about me alone. It's about all of us - although I may have misinterpreted you there...
16:30:27 <TrueBrain> hehe; you did. I mean to say: I am open for dialog, but I am just a small part of OpenTTD
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16:30:42 <TrueBrain> there is a lot done and said, I have no clue how others are towards this goal
16:31:03 <TrueBrain> I have been reading a lot of old posts today, and every time I keep reading misassumptions between people
16:31:16 <TrueBrain> you clearly see people colouring in how other people are, and acting upon that
16:31:23 <TrueBrain> I am the first to admit I am part of that problem
16:31:49 <TrueBrain> to take an example: when mb talks, I assume he is out to hurt someone. Then again, when he asks us/me something, he assumes we won't reply
16:32:00 <TrueBrain> the community is full of those back and forth assumptions and wrong-doing
16:32:00 <SAC> No, that's the problem... If we're going to succeed with this I also believe we need to straighten up some issues historically... Like for instance the one between me and Andythenorth which is plain stupid to begin with...
16:33:24 <SAC> MB has a special way of discussing things, and I'm sure his way of doing it - although not intentional - may cause people to be upset...
16:34:00 <SAC> As you said, a lot of theses issues bottles down to language barriers or similar...
16:34:11 <TrueBrain> yeah ... we have those issues even within the OpenTTD dev team :)
16:34:22 <TrueBrain> it is so hard to express yourself in another language when you feel deeply about something
16:34:56 <SAC> True... it's very difficult... one way to at least overcome some of it are to use smilies... :)
16:35:07 <TrueBrain> but, I guess if we are serious about cleaning up 'this mess', we have to start somewhere
16:35:32 <TrueBrain> I tihnk the easiest approach is if we all just indicate what troubles us, so it can be talked about .. but I have no clue how that travels with others :)
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16:35:45 <TrueBrain> I am the kind of person that just yells what annoys him, and mostly I get good feedback on that :D
16:36:43 <SAC> For instance, it was suggested today at Simuscape today that no swearwords whatsoever should be allowed in any discussions - as one step towards a better and improved atmosphere...
16:36:53 <TrueBrain> I have to admit, only when I took your smilies seriously, your posts weren't as bad as I initially read them :D
16:37:02 <TrueBrain> that is a fair suggestion
16:37:18 <SAC> This may sound trivial but in the end it will have an impact...
16:37:43 <TrueBrain> showing mutual respect is also something to remember; it is easy to assume the other means bad, but if we start to think the other means well, it becomes easier
16:38:09 <TrueBrain> something simple: today you replied to me: "wrong again", where it was the first time I replied to you
16:38:13 <TrueBrain> at first, it made me go: GRRRR
16:38:21 <TrueBrain> then I realised: you had to take the (sorry for my wording) shit of others first
16:38:26 <TrueBrain> so it is logic from your point of view
16:38:38 <SAC> I admit I could have used a better word - and believe me, I was aware of it to start with
16:39:01 <TrueBrain> so I guess if we all step in the assumption the other doesn't mean bad, it is easier to talk to one-another
16:39:09 <TrueBrain> it is only very hard to do that, for a community as a whole :D
16:39:23 <SAC> Yes that and using the kinder word when we address things...
16:39:49 <TrueBrain> so, I like to be concrete (As you might have noticed), lets just try tackling some issues there are
16:39:59 <TrueBrain> let me bite in a big one: why do you feel the need for a simuscape commuity?
16:40:13 <SAC> Okey, give me a moment to respond...
16:40:30 <TrueBrain> (feel free to say you don't want to talk about it at this stage or what ever; I am a very curious person and just blur those things out there :P)
16:40:58 <SAC> Not to worry, I prefer people who are brutally honest - and curious... ;p
16:41:30 * andythenorth has a comment to make about tt-forums community, but will wait for right moment
16:41:40 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we all have :P
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16:42:02 <SAC> First of, Simuscape has always been there. It's not my first site, but when I closed down the others I had in mind to open up Simuscape...
16:43:14 <SAC> 2nd of all, with all the arguings over at TT-forums, which I was part of myself at times - just ask Andy ;p - I felt an urge to have my own place without the disturbance of conflicts...
16:43:36 <TrueBrain> haha, I can relate to that issue :D
16:43:51 <SAC> And quite frankly, I'm of the opinion that the more the merrier...
16:44:19 <TrueBrain> well, let me explain a bit why I ask; I am of the opinion that condensing information is always for the better
16:44:24 <TrueBrain> having 1000 places information is available, I dislike
16:44:29 <TrueBrain> you see that in all my work for OpenTTD
16:44:37 <TrueBrain> all services I created, are there to bring people close together
16:44:55 <TrueBrain> so for me, having several forums is annoying; it doesn't mean I don't see the need for them, nor that I disaprove
16:45:08 <TrueBrain> it just makes me wonder: so .. why does he feel the need to go there :)
16:45:12 * andythenorth has to go wrangle toddlers and babies, biab
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16:45:38 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: after joining Simuscape I read what had happened to Leanden, which you are probably not aware of, wrt a grf drama
16:45:39 <SAC> I'm actually addressing this in my respond over at TT-forums - partially at least... (not posted yet)
16:45:48 <andythenorth> and it annoyed me that Leanden felt the need to leave tt-forums
16:45:53 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ingeneral you can assume I am not up-to-date about drama :P
16:46:11 <TrueBrain> SAC: good; as I am very interested to know :)
16:46:13 <andythenorth> Leanden forked a grf at my recommendation, due to stupidity by the so-called 'community' building it
16:46:22 <andythenorth> he then got driven off the forums in a bout of stupid drama
16:46:54 <andythenorth> the people who drove him out are not people who create things mostly, but rather back-seat drive and somewhat bully, or just ask stupid questions
16:46:54 <TrueBrain> so he got punished for doing something you both considered good?
16:47:17 <andythenorth> then more sensible people jumped on him for going somewhere else and doing closed-doors development
16:47:29 <TrueBrain> and so the balls rolls and rolls
16:47:33 <SAC> If I may say something here...
16:48:56 <SAC> It's very important to realize that Simuscape isn't an enemy site to TT-forums. On the contrary, Simuscape focus on graphics development to 99%, while TT-forums handles graphics as well, but is more for the OTTD development part...
16:49:35 <andythenorth> I would raise that with orudge :)
16:49:45 <SAC> And to sort of reply to your comment yesterday Andythenorth, the Artists Guild does not provide any files at all... It's a workshop... ;p
16:50:05 <TrueBrain> if I understand you correctly, and do correct me if I was wrong, basically you want your own corner on the internet where not every troll comments on things they don't know about?
16:50:39 <TrueBrain> (and yes, tt-forums has trolls, sufficient to fill a house full)
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16:51:20 <andythenorth> they don't always know they're trolling :P
16:51:27 <TrueBrain> which makes it worse :D
16:51:40 <andythenorth> by the nature of the game we attract people a certain approach to social matters :P
16:51:46 <SAC> Sort of... Some of us feel the need to be able to create and develop stuff in a more private area where a few other artists are located... This does miracle to creativity... And when we feel the need, we publish tidbits inside the Visual Studio
16:52:06 <TrueBrain> I respect that, and can't blame you for it
16:52:23 <SAC> As some may think... ;p Getting praised is NOT what I'm after... that doesn't add to the creativity at all...
16:52:40 <TrueBrain> yesterday I did think you were ;)
16:52:40 <andythenorth> SAC: private / safe area makes sense. This naturally creates some friction with those of us who prefer everything to be open, but it makes sense
16:52:48 <TrueBrain> for that I do appoligize, but it had all appearances :)
16:53:15 <SAC> There are lots of things being developed within the Artists Guild, and thanks to the Guild actually...
16:53:42 <TrueBrain> to give you a bit of an idea of community from my side:
16:53:44 <andythenorth> if there must be two places (and it appears there must), they should co-exist
16:53:49 <TrueBrain> Developers of OpenTTD used to talk in #openttd about anything
16:54:00 <TrueBrain> then the trolls came (no disrespect to anyone, just want to point out how they feel)
16:54:07 <TrueBrain> people who comments on everything, with or without knowledge
16:54:13 <SAC> Andythenorth, I'm addressing this as well... I totally agree... :)
16:54:15 <TrueBrain> it forced us to go in our own secret channel, hiding
16:54:31 <TrueBrain> I never really liked this move, even so I caused the move
16:54:41 <TrueBrain> I always liked we could talk development in this channel, for everyone to comment
16:54:44 <TrueBrain> the community grew too big
16:54:48 <TrueBrain> and .. well .. here we are :P
16:54:56 <andythenorth> we are where we are
16:55:06 <TrueBrain> how I preceive your story, you went through the same stages basically
16:55:06 <andythenorth> things I am uncomfortable with:
16:55:49 <andythenorth> (1) that simuscape is seen as a rejection of tt-forums - and a move there is seen as political, which is nonsense
16:56:14 <SAC> There will always be "trolls". The important thing is how we address them from all sides... :)
16:56:26 <TrueBrain> SAC: very true, and good point
16:56:31 <andythenorth> (2) typing while holding babies. that is uncomfortable :P
16:56:42 <SAC> 1) In parts it is of course, but I want to change that
16:57:00 <TrueBrain> no experience with it, sry :P
16:57:06 <TrueBrain> tend to keep it that way :D
16:57:07 <andythenorth> (1) ss is just an alternative choice
16:57:24 <TrueBrain> alternatives are not bad an sich; reasons for it can be
16:59:49 <TrueBrain> random questions I am just wondering about
17:00:05 <TrueBrain> I asusme simscape does publish grfs, but you can only download them if you registered?
17:00:26 <TrueBrain> (given Public Area gives me 1 topic :P)
17:00:42 <TrueBrain> not judging btw, just curious how your mindset is regarding simuscape :)
17:01:24 <TrueBrain> owh, that is a subforum
17:01:42 <TrueBrain> INFRA is available there I see
17:01:46 <SAC> Yes, we do have a registration requirement along with a first post. This is mainly to prevent spambots to get inside, and we have been succesful there... I do have to delete accounts on a daily basis though...
17:02:00 <TrueBrain> ugh, I hate spambots :)
17:02:12 <SAC> ...but they never make it into the sections...
17:02:41 <TrueBrain> other random: why make closed source graphics?
17:02:47 <TrueBrain> purely curious, again :)
17:03:12 <SAC> Not sure what you mean by that?
17:03:23 <TrueBrain> euhm, I work for .. 10+ years in open source world now
17:03:32 <TrueBrain> my mindset is totally brainwashed, and I want to make as much as possible open source
17:03:38 <TrueBrain> but grf authors always tend to keep it closed source
17:04:06 <TrueBrain> I never manage to speak to someone who is honest enough to give me an answer :D
17:04:53 <SAC> In all honesty I've had custom files stolen on many occassions in the past... TTDLX isn't my first game community, but even there I've had stuff finding its way out to the public... stolen trees for instance... and new trees...
17:04:53 * andythenorth is confused by this too
17:05:14 <TrueBrain> but can't they steal from your closed source too?
17:05:27 <SAC> I think it bottles down to the way I personally look at my work..
17:05:31 <andythenorth> 'openness' (or lack of) is probably the biggest thing that I get frustrated about :P
17:05:34 <TrueBrain> (it btw horrifies me that people steal from others, even without credits ... like .. wtf?!)
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17:05:50 <andythenorth> it horrifies me that I might make work that other people can't use / reuse
17:05:55 <TrueBrain> okay, honest answer, I like that; tnx :D
17:06:13 <andythenorth> I might leave, or get bored, or die, and my work is gone
17:06:17 <TrueBrain> for me too it is really hard to think in closed source, but that is a problem on my side, not on SAC's in this case :)
17:06:32 <TrueBrain> one truth is not better than the other :D
17:07:00 <TrueBrain> sorry for the random Qs, I am just so happy I can ask them :)
17:07:02 <SAC> I think that when my work reaches a wider audience I may view this differently...
17:07:25 <andythenorth> I really like seeing my sprites appear in other sets
17:07:36 <andythenorth> and knowing that my grfs might live on beyond me being interested in them
17:08:11 <TrueBrain> to some more interesting topic (for me, I am a webdesigner :P): you stated that you wanted to be able to delete your older grfs;now there is a bit of confusion about what you mean exactly, so let me put it bluntly:
17:08:23 <TrueBrain> 1) you want to remove older grfs and break older savegames
17:08:29 <TrueBrain> 2) you want to avoid people to download your grf for new games
17:08:38 <TrueBrain> (for which ever reasons they may come)
17:09:05 <SAC> 1. Now that I understand how the content service works, I know better
17:09:40 <SAC> 2. I'm addressing this entire BaNaNaS issue in my upcoming response...
17:09:58 <TrueBrain> basically, 2 is fixable
17:10:03 <TrueBrain> I can add a button for it, not a big deal
17:10:13 <TrueBrain> 1) is directly against the philosophy we base OpenTTD on
17:10:24 <SAC> My position is that the BaNaNaS is the best suited place for a centralized download location...
17:10:28 <TrueBrain> not a bad thing if it would collide, but interesting for me :)
17:10:43 <TrueBrain> I am happy to hear that
17:10:57 <SAC> Both for ingame downloads and direct downloads
17:11:02 <TrueBrain> I guess my only question would be: what do we need to change for you to upload on it?
17:11:28 <TrueBrain> and/or, would there be any need to extend it in the way Dave suggested
17:11:37 <SAC> I think I can address this better in a reply to that thread... :)
17:12:18 <TrueBrain> (FYI, I am not a serious person; it takes me effort to refrain myself from joking and torlling :P)
17:13:25 <SAC> We need to clear up that whole incident in the past! Once and for all! From my point of view I believe it was a misunderstanding...
17:13:30 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: which bit of the "bananas doesn't have a web interface" do I miss?
17:13:42 <andythenorth> I see a web interface, just a bad one :P
17:13:55 <andythenorth> SAC: it was a language issue
17:14:05 <andythenorth> and then it was compounded because idiots jumped into the thread
17:14:12 <SAC> And I could most certainly have responded in a way better manner!
17:14:15 <andythenorth> it would have gone away on its own via rational discussion
17:14:30 <TrueBrain> awh, look at you two, being cute and all
17:14:37 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you stand need to talk :P
17:14:46 <andythenorth> today has been cuddly TrueBrain
17:15:04 <TrueBrain> now you two give eachother a hug, and lets continue onwards :)
17:15:21 <SAC> Absolutely, but to be brutally honest Andy, what upset you back then? And what could I have done better?
17:15:21 * andythenorth is a bit on the spectrum and doesn't do physical touching :P
17:15:47 <andythenorth> SAC: credit the grfs you lifted stuff from, be clear you weren't going to release the graphics
17:16:09 <andythenorth> beyond that, the drama was added by other people, who inflated it incorrectly into all kinds of wrong
17:16:41 <SAC> Okey Thanks! I apologize for that - although I need to point out I wasn't going to use any of it other than just showing George something
17:16:54 <andythenorth> stuff (not from you) like (paraphrase) "all this licensing stuff is just crap" basically completely devalues things like GPL
17:17:06 <SAC> But I could indeed have checked the original author rather then requesting others to do it!
17:17:14 <andythenorth> I want to be very open, you want to be very closed, both are based on clear licensing and attribution
17:18:00 <SAC> Well, I do apologize though...
17:18:13 <andythenorth> thanks, I'm sorry it got heated
17:18:40 <SAC> Yeah, but as you said, the ones interfering didn't help out
17:18:58 <andythenorth> they never do, and it's usually the same people
17:19:03 <andythenorth> and they are not people who make things
17:19:10 <SAC> Very true... soo very true
17:19:14 <TrueBrain> maybe a question without answer: what can we (as moderators?) do to prevent these situations where others inflict?
17:19:42 <TrueBrain> on the internet, everyone knows better; but sure it should be possible to form a culture to prevent it?
17:19:45 <SAC> TrueBrain, I'm addressing this too! I think we need to have a similar approach on all sides...
17:19:48 <andythenorth> there is one mod who sadly inflames as much as helps :(
17:20:25 <TrueBrain> and andythenorth, BaNaNaS does have a frontpage, albeit terrible
17:20:36 <andythenorth> and page per content type
17:20:38 <TrueBrain> it used to be purely view, it had to be extended to allow download
17:20:46 <andythenorth> I tried improving it, but no dev environment :P
17:20:59 <TrueBrain> it went from just showing what happened in a system, to a functional site .. terrible
17:21:06 <SAC> Not to sound negative towards TT-forums, but I think admins, mods and devs needs to be more active in terms of preventing people from attacking each others
17:21:14 <TrueBrain> and I am to blame in that, I never took much interest in improving it
17:21:23 <TrueBrain> SAC: I 100% agree with you
17:21:29 <TrueBrain> but it is hard, and mostly boring
17:21:41 <andythenorth> the lego forum I hang out on is much better for that, (has to be as kids use it). No backseat driving, no swearing, no arguments, no trolls
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17:21:46 <TrueBrain> the cultural aspect also plays: what is a troll for you, might be normal for me
17:21:50 <andythenorth> brb, poo incident
17:22:01 <TrueBrain> I just love andythenorth and his babies :P
17:22:16 <SAC> And to be honest, I feel that there is a bunch of people over there who have somehow gained a bit more freedom in doing so than others - which is really bad...
17:22:38 <TrueBrain> but moderation is not a black and white thing
17:22:49 <TrueBrain> sometimes you also need to give a bit to allow conversations to continue
17:23:02 <TrueBrain> silly example maybe, but "the thread" of this weekend, was said to be doomed and end in a flamewar
17:23:10 <TrueBrain> now look at us, being all civalised and all
17:23:15 <Terkhen> I don't have much to add to your discussion but I just want to say I'm quite happy that it is happening :)
17:23:49 <TrueBrain> in general, moderation is hard .. its easy for small communities
17:23:51 <andythenorth> resolved (smelt of yoghurt)
17:24:19 <SAC> And for what it's worth, also in here we need to respect others... I may not ba active here, but I've been updated from time to time... ;p Just saying...
17:24:29 <TrueBrain> which also leaves me in a very ... double state. On one hand I think simuscape is a good thing, for people who are serious to 'hide' from the rest
17:24:40 <andythenorth> what is trolling in some places is standard behaviour in open source dev communities (the "tl;dr" type of approach)
17:24:41 <TrueBrain> like developers do on IRC
17:24:49 <TrueBrain> on the other hand ... its sad that it is required
17:25:06 <andythenorth> it is good that it exists; it is bad that some people feel driven there
17:25:08 <TrueBrain> SAC: spies are everywhere :D (I have played too much EVE Online)
17:25:57 <TrueBrain> all joking aside, the climate has to shift
17:26:05 <TrueBrain> I often don't reply to threads, as people will drop over me like a banana
17:26:11 <andythenorth> stuff like 'please search' and "don't double post" is valid community management
17:26:38 * andythenorth feels absolutely no guilt for bullying the BROS 'team'
17:27:18 <SAC> And for me personally I'd like to address people who has problems with me - simply to sort things out once and for all...
17:27:29 * andythenorth however also found a very bad thread in 'off-topic' about BROS, and was pretty disgusted by it
17:27:30 <TrueBrain> I think that is a very valid and noble quest
17:28:23 <TrueBrain> what made you turn around lke this? (sorry if it is a in-the-face question, but agian: I am a curious person)
17:28:36 <NGC3982> this is giving me a serious headache
17:28:46 <TrueBrain> it seemed you were driving away from tt-forums
17:28:46 <NGC3982> utorrent simply doesnt write from cache to disc
17:28:50 <TrueBrain> and now you drive back here
17:28:52 <NGC3982> and it makes me crazy :(
17:28:57 <TrueBrain> why? Or better: how can we get others to do the same?
17:29:04 <TrueBrain> NGC3982: sstt now :P
17:29:10 <SAC> I never left TT-forums. I only moved my work...
17:29:21 <TrueBrain> as I noticed :D (for the positive)
17:29:21 <andythenorth> SAC you are your work :P
17:29:47 <TrueBrain> okay, maybe I should put it differently, as I understand the question is vague at best
17:29:49 <SAC> But I'm seriously tired of all the arguings over and over again...
17:30:00 <TrueBrain> take a person like ... hmm, the name with an L?
17:30:05 <TrueBrain> (sorry, I am terrible at names :()
17:30:15 <TrueBrain> how can we as community make him feel welcome
17:30:16 <andythenorth> I found it yesterday
17:30:17 <SAC> ...and that they never seems to be addressed properly so we can solve them
17:30:27 <andythenorth> ^ found that via Simuscape
17:30:37 <TrueBrain> SAC: seriously, I started this conversation with it, but this highroad you take, I have a lot of respect for you taking it
17:30:39 <andythenorth> If I'd found it earlier I would have back-seat moderated
17:30:47 <TrueBrain> it takes balls (excuse my french), and shows character
17:30:57 <SAC> Andythenorth, I dislike it too
17:31:32 <andythenorth> I can disambiguate and negotiate between two groups of people who make things: one 'open' and one 'closed'
17:31:38 <SAC> I wouldn't say that TrueBrain... We're all here for the same purpose, but if we want our community to survive and develop further, we need to find a solution
17:31:38 <andythenorth> but that thread is full of idiots
17:32:07 <TrueBrain> SAC: take the compliment ffs :P :D
17:32:13 <TrueBrain> but yes, you are very correct
17:32:25 <andythenorth> the idiots have conflated 'development focussed communities often have robust discourse' with 'it is ok to be a dickhead'
17:33:04 <TrueBrain> is part of the problem that people have no space they can indicate they feel being wrong-done?
17:33:04 <Terkhen> SAC: if you are asking me if I have any problems with you... I only truly followed this weekend discussion as I felt that it affected the openttd team as a whole, and I can see that it is now going through the right path
17:33:21 <andythenorth> if only MB would join us here too ;)
17:33:33 <Terkhen> so as I said I can't add much to the discussion :P
17:33:36 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I can only hope he would be as open as we all now try to be
17:34:07 <SAC> I was asking you Terkhen based on what I've seen you saying in this chat... Not to argue, but to solve... :)
17:34:50 <SAC> I am far from perfect, but one can only learn and improve if given the right instruments - and constructive critisism
17:35:57 <SAC> brb... need to visit the bathroom... :)
17:37:06 <TrueBrain> I think a problem was that in "the thread" one misunderstanding above the other was stacked, to create a lot of confusion and weirdness; but that is now all water on the bridge as far as I care/consider :)
17:37:07 * andythenorth has replied to that insane thread
17:37:23 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you know Hyronymus is a moderator?
17:37:43 <andythenorth> and yet I think there would be a statistically valid correlation between threads he is moderating, and drama
17:37:54 <andythenorth> guess I should talk to orudge
17:38:09 <TrueBrain> don't be quick to judge: he is sent (by us mostly) to threads we think are out of control
17:38:18 <andythenorth> I have been slow to judge
17:38:22 <TrueBrain> he, to me, is always the one that is more calm then we are :P
17:38:25 <andythenorth> I have formed my opinion on results :P
17:38:41 <andythenorth> also correlation may not be causation
17:38:42 <SAC> Good point in that thread Andythenorth... I totally agree
17:38:47 <andythenorth> firemen are always present at fires :P
17:38:51 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I was writing those words! Dammit :P
17:38:58 <TrueBrain> but that is what I mean, yes
17:39:06 <andythenorth> when I was small, I thought firemen came to light fires. Fire engines terrified me
17:39:12 <TrueBrain> when I am about to inflame on someone, I PM Hyro if he can take a look
17:39:23 <TrueBrain> he mostly replies very calm: nothing going on, you overreacted (in kind words)
17:40:10 <TrueBrain> basically what you just said in my mind: a moderator is always in a thread with drama
17:40:16 <TrueBrain> which indeed is: a firemen is always present at fires :)
17:40:29 <andythenorth> valid inductive reasoning: firemen start fires
17:40:40 <TrueBrain> causality is a tricky thing :P
17:40:50 <TrueBrain> but then again, I rarely have any real interest in what goes on on the forums outside the constructive replies
17:40:59 <TrueBrain> I stop reading threads very very quickly
17:41:10 <Terkhen> hmm... that thread is quite sad indeed
17:41:10 <SAC> Well, I need to leave you - for now - so I can continue to write my response... :) Thanks for being brutally honest with me... :)
17:41:21 <TrueBrain> and tnx for joining
17:41:31 <andythenorth> dialogue is constructive
17:41:35 <TrueBrain> indeed, come back (under your own name etc)
17:41:52 <NGC3982> < TrueBrain> causality is a tricky thing
17:41:54 <TrueBrain> when people talk, the world is not as bad as it appears :D
17:41:58 <SAC> I may need to create an account possibly
17:42:07 <NGC3982> of course it isnt. its just like birds and feathers
17:43:02 * NGC3982 paul valery causality quotes doesnt come trough
17:43:03 <TrueBrain> and sorry NGC3982, but we were talking stuff, and you came blabbing random stuff in between :P That is why I said: ssttt
17:43:20 <TrueBrain> I know this channel is rarely ontopic, but we needed it now :D
17:43:26 <NGC3982> TrueBrain: ah, you mean: "shh". ssttt is a telescope, afaik.
17:43:50 <Terkhen> yes, sometimes on-topic must be enforced :P
17:43:51 <NGC3982> man, how many lips do you guys have.
17:43:58 * NGC3982 is great on off-topics.
17:44:37 <NGC3982> TrueBrain: well, i didnt get it. sorry for disturbing something that felt rather serious while scrolling up now.
17:44:57 <TrueBrain> NGC3982: its fine, I just wanted to say sorry for doing that like that
17:45:05 <TrueBrain> I just needed you to shutup about random unrelated events :D
17:45:18 <TrueBrain> its rare, I know :D
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24339 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt polish.txt unfinished/urdu.txt):
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 5 changes by kyrm
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by xaxa
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: urdu - 29 changes by yasirniazkhan
17:45:39 <NGC3982> the thing is, this channel is the most serious channel (besides #QED and stuff).
17:45:54 <andythenorth> NGC3982: if you're feeling overly-serious, try #tycoon
17:45:57 <NGC3982> a part of me wishes to break that with lame english and farts
17:46:02 <andythenorth> #tycoon is, afaict, bollocks
17:46:05 <NGC3982> a part of me also wishes i was one of you.
17:46:10 <NGC3982> andythenorth: oh, jeez
17:46:16 <TrueBrain> owh, the days this channel was 90% OpenTTD
17:46:25 <TrueBrain> then again, we only had 30 people in those days
17:46:26 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: this channel is 90% me now
17:46:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is; for a while it had been 90% nothing
17:46:51 <TrueBrain> which was even more boring
17:47:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: so yes that thread is very stupid. And it irritates me.
17:47:29 <andythenorth> reading between the lines at Simuscape, the forums are now seen as 'dominated by openttd'
17:47:42 <andythenorth> and so the attitude is seen as 'the one of the openttd developers'
17:47:53 <TrueBrain> I wish that was true; would be so much better :P
17:48:02 <andythenorth> it's a perception in some quarters :P
17:48:09 <andythenorth> and when people who have nothing to do with openttd act like fuckwits
17:48:15 <TrueBrain> I can't get a decent conversation going on the forums without some troll
17:48:17 <andythenorth> it's seen as "ottd-like behaviour"
17:48:43 <NGC3982> im sorry, but "ottd-like behaviour" is actually a phrase i use sometimes
17:48:56 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'm also afraid of posting in some debates just because I have a "OpenTTD developer" below my name
17:48:57 <TrueBrain> try playing Minecraft on public servers
17:49:12 <andythenorth> ho I can imagine
17:49:15 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: I often solve that by starting: Personally, .....
17:49:15 <NGC3982> when describing what kind of people who built this monster of code and logic.
17:49:25 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: basically YT, but with bricks?
17:49:34 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: haha, yes
17:49:44 <Terkhen> some opinions that could be considered "normal" will be flamed if they come from what they perceive as an authority figure
17:49:57 <andythenorth> YT and minecraft public servers means we know where all the idiots are and what they're doing
17:50:01 <Terkhen> but I hardly consider myself that wrt the community itself
17:50:16 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: I fully understand your problem :)
17:50:21 <TrueBrain> I think all developers have it, one way or the other
17:50:29 <TrueBrain> you don't always want to reply with authority, as you don't always know
17:50:36 * andythenorth has deliberately avoiding gaining any kind of authority for that reason
17:50:36 <TrueBrain> yet any reply you make iwll be received as authority
17:51:02 * NGC3982 normally presents the openttd community as a pair of asberger savant non-working retards, and still make it sounds fantasticly fabulous.
17:51:02 <andythenorth> having commit rights to nml terrifies me quite enough :P
17:51:14 <andythenorth> NGC3982: approximately correct
17:51:25 <NGC3982> i find some stuff you make amazing
17:51:46 <NGC3982> i monitored some dutch guy having a discussion in industrial italian
17:52:24 <NGC3982> and here i am trying to look cool becuase i can say like four words in swahili.
17:53:20 <andythenorth> so it troubles me
17:53:24 <NGC3982> or PMs (not going to hilight and get ultra-flamed this time) ability to make fantastic contributions to a community like this, and still be awesome-pancake at astronomy.
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17:53:40 <andythenorth> the attitudes that make open source work - robust discussion etc - are being confused with being a twat
17:53:49 <Terkhen> to mention an example of a discussion that happens a lot; I honestly think that GPL is the best way to go for community projects, but enforcing it (or any other license) hurts the community as other people can and will see things in a different light, and they should be allowed to contribute in the way they see fit
17:53:49 <andythenorth> and it hasn't been shut down enough
17:54:04 <NGC3982> andythenorth: well. most people on irc talk like me. as in: HI THERE MISTAR ANDEE :DDDD?????!!!one.
17:54:19 <andythenorth> NGC3982: I don't go on most of irc :P
17:54:23 <Terkhen> but if I, as an openttd developer, mention that in a thread, it will be seen as an attempt to enforce something
17:54:23 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: yup; that is why we allow all licenses
17:54:27 <TrueBrain> dispite me not liking it :D
17:54:34 <Xaroth> NGC3982: most of IRC people deserve to be shot for that :P
17:54:37 <NGC3982> andythenorth: discussing as a calculator makes enormous effort on the projekt, but maybe not as much as a "first thing you react to when someone talks to you".
17:54:39 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: not if you describe it that way
17:54:44 <TrueBrain> that is, if they would, it is their problem
17:55:03 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: yes, but some people will use such a comment to add to the fire :)
17:55:05 <TrueBrain> you, even as developer, are entitled to your opinion; as long as you are open minded enough to listen to others
17:55:14 <andythenorth> NGC3982: do you hang out in many development channels? Like #python or #php or #mysql or such? :)
17:55:21 <TrueBrain> sadly, many of my statements over the years have been (heavily) abused in one way or the other
17:55:26 <NGC3982> andythenorth: absolutely not.
17:55:26 <TrueBrain> often by cutting context, or even words
17:55:33 <andythenorth> NGC3982: pretty similar to here ;)
17:55:35 <TrueBrain> I have to admit, it made me post less
17:55:43 <TrueBrain> so .... yes .. I feel your pain :)
17:55:47 * andythenorth has not had that problem at all, ever
17:56:08 <TrueBrain> also, that made me change my posts to: Personally, ....
17:56:14 <TrueBrain> it did get less by then
17:56:21 <NGC3982> andythenorth: my fifteen years with irc reeks with complete language poop.
17:56:49 <TrueBrain> on a totally non-related note: I am in this community 8 years and 3 months now
17:56:57 * andythenorth sometimes uses 'imho', which is completely lame and weak
17:57:01 <NGC3982> andythenorth: since im brought up with it that way. i almost never used it as a serious development tool, but more to hang out with hipsters and stuff.
17:57:12 <NGC3982> at least, im not in the 'lol' generation.
17:57:15 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: furniture :)
17:57:15 <andythenorth> also I should pay more attention, my two year old is emptying the bath onto the floor with a bucket
17:57:26 <TrueBrain> pay attention to your children ffs
17:57:32 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: I feel old just because I have been here already for 4 years :P
17:57:34 <andythenorth> neglect makes them stronger
17:57:47 <TrueBrain> and .. calling cival services
17:57:51 <andythenorth> the problem is when the water reaches my laptop
17:58:07 <NGC3982> andythenorth: squash two birds in one go. have your son learn how a pirate lives while contributing to the community (by not caring and write some nml).
17:58:07 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what is your address?
17:58:16 <TrueBrain> I need to know it to .... send you ... a postcard
17:58:53 <NGC3982> as a kid, i remember filling daddy's car seat with flower pot dirt i found.
17:59:03 <NGC3982> t'waz neat, i thought id grow a new car inside the car.
17:59:34 <andythenorth> while we're here, I can't make up my mind about MB
17:59:45 <andythenorth> mostly I like MB, he's witty in a way that others seem to miss
17:59:52 <andythenorth> but he was very badly behaved about bananas
18:00:08 <andythenorth> I would say water under the bridge, but it will happen again
18:00:21 <andythenorth> over some other issue
18:01:03 <TrueBrain> for his last .... defaming action, I kinda want an apoligy from him; you can do what ever you want in a community, but when you defame a corp in a legal takedown, you get on my bad side ... which is rather hard to get on tbfh
18:01:06 * NGC3982 has use of his gigabit for the first time.
18:02:15 <TrueBrain> but people keep telling me he was most likely not aware that his actions were in fact legal actions
18:02:29 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: in that case you have said the last word on it for me; he should apologise
18:02:44 <andythenorth> to not apologise shows a lack of decent respect for community norms
18:02:56 <NGC3982> 30MB/s sounds pretty reasonal for a normal USB2 external drive, right?
18:02:58 <TrueBrain> that he already showed by the assumption we would not process his claim
18:03:10 <andythenorth> well he did bad, but could make it better by apologising
18:03:17 <TrueBrain> I think he of all people has the most to do in regards of attitude change
18:03:18 <andythenorth> that is what we teach children anyway
18:03:40 <TrueBrain> he seems hardwired to assume we always mean bad; and I am sure we have our history to proof him that
18:03:48 <TrueBrain> but like SAC says: lets leave that behind us, and continue fresh
18:04:13 <andythenorth> tomorrow is another day
18:05:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I say that we should concentrate on the current problem and take care of any future ones when they happen (taking into account what happened before, of course ;) )
18:05:45 <andythenorth> more pressingly, how do I clean the floor? :P
18:06:14 <andythenorth> tis mostly water
18:06:17 <andythenorth> should be fine to lick
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18:09:12 <FLHerne> Does anyone here get Blender?
18:09:37 <FLHerne> I've been trying to model Class 60s, but the interface is limitlessly baffling :-(
18:10:48 <Terkhen> nope, I opened it once and closed it after a minute
18:11:08 <andythenorth> so the water was going through the floor and running out of the light fitting in the room below :P
18:11:14 * andythenorth has removed the child from the bath
18:11:15 <Terkhen> I hope that more people learn blender though, it seems that we need more 32bpp sprites :)
18:11:25 <andythenorth> don't want to test the RCD trip :P
18:13:13 <FLHerne> I'm trying to, but it's a pain. Kpovmodeler had a much nicer interface, but doesn't exist anymore :-(
18:13:26 * andythenorth liked Cinema4D :P
18:13:32 <andythenorth> a long time ago. Not free.
18:14:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: children before IRC
18:14:11 <TrueBrain> stop forgetting that
18:14:56 <andythenorth> he's watching YT anyway
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18:17:17 <frosch123> is the air clear? can i start flaming again?
18:17:39 <andythenorth> no we are being nice for the next 3 months
18:18:12 <andythenorth> which are stupid?
18:18:37 <frosch123> half of the tags are author names
18:19:10 <frosch123> if searching for an author is a useful thing, we could just add that to the search algorithm
18:19:20 <frosch123> but, putting it into the tags is silly
18:19:24 <andythenorth> union of all grfs I have my name on ;)
18:19:26 <Terkhen> frosch123: it's simpler to add the tag than to write a feature request :)
18:19:33 <andythenorth> tagging is open and messy
18:19:43 <andythenorth> and lets you identify categories you wish you'd thought of
18:19:56 <andythenorth> categories-in-advance is mostly a bunfight that ends up wrong whoever wins
18:20:15 <andythenorth> so be happy when tagging fails, because you probably won :)
18:20:48 <andythenorth> [by not wasting time devising taxonomies nobody likes or uses correctly] :P
18:21:08 <TrueBrain> frosch123: tags are the most worst function I added to any OpenTTD service :P
18:21:25 <TrueBrain> I still feel dirty for doing
18:21:29 <andythenorth> if that's the worst you've done
18:21:32 <andythenorth> rating would be worse
18:21:35 <TrueBrain> it is so heavily abused, it is ... ugh
18:21:51 <TrueBrain> we really need a good review system for BaNaNaS
18:22:01 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: with regard to the original discussion for improving bananas... some linux distributions ask you to install a package that keeps track of what you install
18:22:20 <frosch123> Terkhen: i always answer "no" to that :p
18:22:22 <Terkhen> we could make OpenTTD ask you for permission for sending information about what you use in your games
18:22:41 <andythenorth> screw the supposed privacy violations
18:22:43 <TrueBrain> its a posibility, but ... its tricky
18:23:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: of course, it would not give any personal information
18:23:24 <Terkhen> just: content x was used in y games
18:23:26 <frosch123> well, the difference is: people can download all content, but they cannot add everything to a single game
18:23:29 <Terkhen> but indeed, tricky :)
18:23:47 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is easily coverable by good statements and open source
18:23:54 <TrueBrain> not a real issue I expect
18:23:57 <TrueBrain> as long as we ask about it
18:24:01 <andythenorth> we wrote an extensive tracking framework for flash games when I was making them
18:24:04 <Terkhen> yes, I thought of it as a solution to the "download is not a good measure" problem
18:24:13 <Terkhen> just a random idea :)
18:24:14 <andythenorth> no sensitive personal data, just play information
18:24:22 <Terkhen> frosch123: and I answer yes usually :P
18:24:34 <TrueBrain> I like my idea more and more, about having profiles on the web
18:24:37 <TrueBrain> where you can select grfs
18:24:41 <TrueBrain> start games with it
18:24:51 <Terkhen> ooh, a social network? :P
18:25:11 <Terkhen> just put the game in steam or desura while you are at it :D
18:26:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: leave out comments etc :P
18:26:43 <andythenorth> we're not making YT
18:26:49 <Terkhen> yes, please, absolutely no comments whatsoever
18:26:56 <Terkhen> just a link to the forum thread should suffice
18:27:10 <andythenorth> also no personal messaging etc - anti-grooming applies, we have kids playing
18:28:22 <Terkhen> agreed, any kind of messaging leads to the need of moderation
18:28:28 <Terkhen> and we don't need or want that :)
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18:37:23 <TrueBrain> omg, he used BaNaNaS website as frontend ... omg .. that explains so much; the horror!
18:37:26 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't even want to do that
18:37:29 <TrueBrain> its terrible for that
18:37:31 <TrueBrain> in al possible ways
18:37:59 <andythenorth> that's why I was going to fix it
18:38:00 <TrueBrain> its silly how easy you can miss such information, but ... omg :P
18:38:20 <andythenorth> more information
18:38:33 <TrueBrain> argh, people keep telling me, and I keep forgetting
18:38:40 <TrueBrain> I consider every person on internet a he
18:38:46 <TrueBrain> not discrimanting between any of them
18:38:59 <TrueBrain> its not meant as disrespect, FYI :D
18:39:16 * andythenorth wants to mockup bananas templates, but instead has work to do
18:39:26 <andythenorth> applying twitter bootstrap ui to a plone app
18:39:35 <andythenorth> or replying to emails :P
18:39:50 <TrueBrain> or making me an image
18:39:57 <andythenorth> emails can wait :P
18:40:13 <andythenorth> what's the test url?
18:40:21 <TrueBrain> www-test.openttd.org
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18:40:35 <andythenorth> I misplaced my history :P
18:40:56 <andythenorth> is it checked in?
18:41:12 <TrueBrain> so you have to pick it off the website :D
18:48:23 <TrueBrain> made a topic about BaNaNaS Frontend and review
18:48:53 <andythenorth> I'd lose the main nav gradient as well tbh
18:49:37 <TrueBrain> can you cook me 2 pngs for that? :D
18:50:29 <TrueBrain> give me the CSS properties then :P :D
18:50:30 <andythenorth> generally I avoid images where possible, modern css covers so much
18:51:06 <NataS> andythenorth, you convinced me to play Dwarf Fortress again.
18:51:34 <andythenorth> I have never played it. I'm tempted :P
18:52:00 <NataS> (Translator's note: Fun means losing)
18:52:01 <andythenorth> you need to change the font color for navbar <a> selected as well
18:53:11 <andythenorth> box-shadow is the best css attr in years :P
18:53:19 <andythenorth> no ie7 or 8 support afaik
18:53:26 <TrueBrain> yeah ... openttd.org is CSS2 atm
18:53:31 <TrueBrain> but .. you know ... ancient history :D
18:55:16 <TrueBrain> which colour to give the top bar then ?
18:55:37 <andythenorth> I'll eat then tweak ;)
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19:00:17 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: updated www-test with some basics of what you gave me
19:00:25 <TrueBrain> I think it can be done more pretty :D
19:02:16 <andythenorth> maybe we use the orange as over state
19:04:12 <andythenorth> double nav is not easy for this problem :)
19:05:15 <frosch123> make the subsection one in ottd green instead :p
19:05:24 <frosch123> might look horrible though :)
19:05:34 <andythenorth> green and orange are contrasting colours
19:05:42 <andythenorth> no designer would use them adjacent :D
19:05:51 <andythenorth> except the designer of ottd logo ;)
19:05:58 <frosch123> i like the ottd orange and green :)
19:08:47 <andythenorth> flat colour is better than gradients for these down states
19:09:02 <frosch123> the orange is too dark :)
19:09:03 <andythenorth> prize for the first one to admit that green and orange looks silly
19:09:04 <TrueBrain> isnt that a lot: in your face? :D
19:09:21 <TrueBrain> softer colours might help?
19:09:23 * andythenorth will present v4 shortly
19:09:31 <frosch123> yes, too edgy comared to the rest
19:09:41 <andythenorth> I presented that as a "no we don't like that" ;)
19:11:35 <frosch123> i think the font in the navbar has too much weight (not sure about the term)
19:12:31 <andythenorth> it might be better to invert font colour for secondary nav
19:13:22 <frosch123> oh, silly me... it's the same font, it's just andy's browser which displays it so ugly
19:13:43 <andythenorth> that's how that font looks :P
19:14:03 <TrueBrain> MISCOMMUNICATION! Lets make a thread ... *troll*
19:14:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: install trebuchet
19:14:09 <frosch123> TrueBrain: use numbers
19:14:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: you probably see Arial?
19:14:54 <andythenorth> I don't really like Trebuchet, it's sharp, and the letter shapes can be hard to read
19:14:57 <frosch123> no idea, but it is a light sansserif font
19:19:51 * andythenorth ponders orange main nav
19:20:29 <TrueBrain> owh, too many seriousness on a day makes me go bananas ... I guess I should log off the forums for today, before it gets any worse
19:21:11 <frosch123> what do you blame on me?
19:21:27 <TrueBrain> [21:14] <TrueBrain> MISCOMMUNICATION! Lets make a thread ... *troll*
19:21:29 <TrueBrain> [21:14] <frosch123> TrueBrain: use numbers
19:21:40 <NGC3982> win something, dammit.
19:21:47 <frosch123> oh, i guess you should quickly delete your post :p
19:23:01 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I have 7 days, not? :D
19:23:17 <frosch123> not if someone replies, of it you use mod powers
19:24:35 <frosch123> TrueBrain: seriously, that post makes you look silly
19:24:56 <frosch123> maybe be as well :p
19:25:02 <TrueBrain> owh, you guys have to lighten up a bit
19:25:07 <TrueBrain> just reply something silly
19:25:10 <TrueBrain> and then we both look silly
19:25:47 <TrueBrain> see, that is a correct reply :)
19:25:51 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i hate the offtopic section
19:26:33 <andythenorth> also so v5 of those screenshots?
19:26:45 * andythenorth has refreshed firebug so lost it :P
19:27:08 <frosch123> though i think i found an appropiate troll reply
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19:27:43 <TrueBrain> perfect reply frosch123, thank you :D
19:29:31 <SpComb> you clearly need to find some way to extend to OpenTTD GPL to loaded newgrfs
19:29:48 <TrueBrain> SpComb: we can modify it upon loading :P
19:29:53 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: v5, yes
19:30:08 <SpComb> loaded GRFs that use OpenTTD-specific features are obviously a derived work of the OpenTTD GPL code, since they wouldn't be of any use without OpenTTD
19:30:28 * SpComb read too much linux kernel module gpl stuff last week
19:30:36 <TrueBrain> a tool neer forces the license of the file processed by said tool
19:31:38 <TrueBrain> I completed my thread :D
19:31:43 <andythenorth> the main nav should be lighter
19:33:12 <SpComb> TrueBrain: linus argued that LSM's are subject to kernel GPL since they're so integrated into kernel stuff
19:33:23 <SpComb> TrueBrain: "function pointers don't form a GPL boundary"
19:33:47 <andythenorth> there's a GPL FAQ on it
19:33:55 <TrueBrain> that would make our world a lot harder, if that was true tbh
19:34:07 <andythenorth> newgrfs are almost certainly all GPL by being combined with a GPL program
19:34:17 <TrueBrain> as example, you wouldn't be able to execute VB script in OOO if it was stored in docx
19:34:45 <TrueBrain> its incredible how much joy one can experience from posting a trollcat
19:35:09 <TrueBrain> I have tears in my eyes
19:35:29 * andythenorth has those kind of days :P
19:35:49 <andythenorth> grr. these navbar images are annoying me :P
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19:38:58 <TrueBrain> I should stop browsing through lolcats
19:39:00 <TrueBrain> it makes me smile too much
19:39:34 <SAC> Hi again... just had some quesions...
19:40:48 <andythenorth> we should lose the stripes in the header, it has moire flicker
19:40:53 <Zuu> TrueBrain: I've been having communication protocol ideas for AI <-> AI ever since you created NoAI. But now with GS and the problem on how to make AIs play with goals, there was a real motivation for it.
19:40:53 <SAC> What can be done with BaNaNaS in terms of making it more userfriendly, (as suggested in one of those spinoffs)? Is it a technical issue and/or economical one?
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19:41:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: while at it, redesign the website? :P
19:41:08 <andythenorth> that is the problem with tweaks :P
19:41:12 <Zuu> I and krinn had a chat on IRC about it and decided to have a go on it. :-)
19:41:20 <TrueBrain> Zuu: and I never liked the idea, but I am impressed you guys implemented it
19:41:34 <TrueBrain> SAC: time is an issue
19:41:46 <andythenorth> and there's no dev environment :P
19:41:50 <andythenorth> did I mention that? :P
19:41:52 <TrueBrain> basically, nobody has the knowledge/time/freedom to build a replacement
19:42:00 <TrueBrain> so it never got done
19:42:05 <Zuu> Although krinn have made most of the low level work on the library. My role have been to test it, write documentation and try to find bugs. :-)
19:42:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth is the only one who ever gave it a try
19:42:09 <__ln__> please do not create Skynet
19:42:11 <TrueBrain> failed horribly for all the obvious reasons :P
19:42:15 <andythenorth> I can try guessing by writing django templates, but then we have to put them live to test them :P
19:42:18 <TrueBrain> but andythenorth and I agree'd we are going to fix this, so :)
19:42:36 <TrueBrain> the topic is not a topic like: I ask you, and we discard it ;)
19:42:39 <TrueBrain> we will fix BaNaNaS
19:43:37 * andythenorth needs to learn a new python framework
19:43:38 <SAC> I'm thinking in terms of making the BaNaNaS a "central place" for downloads... Is it possible considering the time/knowledge/freedom?
19:44:14 <SAC> What else is required? Financial back-up?
19:44:16 <Xaroth> andythenorth: if it's django I can assist, if it's pyramid, I can not :P
19:44:16 <TrueBrain> basically, it has to be done; BaNaNaS is now 3.5 years old, and never really updated to new standards :P
19:44:22 <Xaroth> i cba to learn a new framework :P
19:44:34 <TrueBrain> SAC: lots of feedback
19:44:45 <andythenorth> Xaroth: it's ok, I can adapt. Pyramid is not wildly differing to Django afaict
19:44:46 <TrueBrain> often this goes wrong, and I am left by my lonely self to come up with solutions
19:44:49 <TrueBrain> which is rather boring and dull
19:45:06 <Zuu> TrueBrain: I can understand there is a fear that two AIs will coop up. Ideally OpenTTD would provide a API for implementing all sort of goal systems, but then you would need to patch OpenTTD to support every goal idea that someone have. SCP allows AIs to be aware of goals that are not supported by the OpenTTD core API.
19:45:06 <SAC> TrueBrain, that of course...
19:45:35 <TrueBrain> Zuu: I understood that, and notice it was good :D
19:45:47 <TrueBrain> SAC: it is basically the most important thing: feedback
19:45:48 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I think I need the repo for the website, or a zip of images :P
19:45:49 <SAC> I'd be interested to hear some of the other devs on this entire matter...
19:45:51 <TrueBrain> what would you want the system to do
19:46:13 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: did you fix my CSS already? :D :D
19:46:23 <andythenorth> or we could just apply bootstrap
19:46:26 <Xaroth> then no images for you!
19:46:40 <TrueBrain> SAC: in regards of the climate issues, you indeed should hear from other devs
19:46:45 <andythenorth> if we use bootstrap it will look like every other website made this year :D
19:46:48 <frosch123> Zuu: i would love ais teaming up, then you can also team up against them
19:46:51 <TrueBrain> as far as BaNaNaS goes, most of them only know that it works
19:46:54 <Xaroth> andythenorth: I have a django-admin rewrite for bootstrap ready.. but tb refuses to use it
19:47:03 <TrueBrain> (and they tell me if they don't like something etc :P)
19:47:21 <SAC> BTW, since I'm on a mission to work out differences, I see Xaroth is here... :)
19:47:30 <Xaroth> I'm always here, I just know when to stfu
19:48:20 <SAC> ;) Still, let me know what may possibly bother you, and I'll address them and change what needs to be changed...
19:48:30 <SpComb> working on BaNaNas and Django sounds interesting, but not going to start on it because I have too much similar work of my own to take care of
19:48:52 <TrueBrain> I can poop out the Python part very fast, or at least, relative fast
19:49:02 <TrueBrain> its easy, and I am good at that
19:49:09 <TrueBrain> what I am not good at, is design, ideas, .....
19:49:12 <TrueBrain> I need people for that
19:49:14 <Terkhen> SAC: for gathering the opinion of more people (devs or not) with regard to the "community climate" IMO a forum thread is a better option
19:49:16 <andythenorth> django templates are just ${blah} right?
19:49:22 <Xaroth> SAC: I have no personal issues with you :)
19:49:29 <TrueBrain> so SAC, please do post what you think BaNaNaS should do, in detail where possible :)
19:49:29 <frosch123> SAC: i never read the off-topic and barely read the grf development forum; so the bros thread andy pointed out was also interesting for me to learn about
19:49:35 <andythenorth> can I do {{method.call()}}
19:49:50 <Xaroth> django will attempt to call if it's callable
19:49:56 <andythenorth> the off-topic is a place I am not going back to
19:50:15 <SAC> LOL I left the off-topic long ago...
19:50:22 <andythenorth> Xaroth: I'll have to learn pyramid another time then :P
19:50:29 <andythenorth> if we're committed to django
19:50:40 <andythenorth> maybe I'll write a pyramid app and ship it with BANDIT
19:50:47 <Terkhen> SAC: with regard to the bananas changes I can and will give feedback and opinions, but as TrueBrain said, it is "TrueBrain 's thing" :P
19:50:47 <andythenorth> for configuring the grf
19:50:49 <TrueBrain> We are committed to Django ;)
19:51:11 <andythenorth> "configure this grf in your browser at localhost:8700"
19:51:45 <andythenorth> currently the BANDIT admin in is in Zope, shipping Zope with the grf is...almost the definition of overkill :P
19:52:15 <SAC> Xaroth, okey... :) As long as we're clear...
19:52:17 <TrueBrain> hmm, maybe I should make a nice topic explaining how our webservices work, what is required for any improvement, and where it goes 'wrong' if anything :)
19:52:36 *** kais58_ is now known as kais58
19:52:42 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: would be useful, you might get more contributors too
19:52:48 <andythenorth> currently it is...mysterious
19:52:51 <TrueBrain> yeah; if our service system wasn't so damn complex ...
19:52:59 <TrueBrain> there is so much shit going on ...... :D
19:53:06 <andythenorth> you should see the diagram of our ad network
19:53:11 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD has 15 VPSes at work for him
19:53:13 <Xaroth> if openttd's system op wasn't so damn complex
19:53:18 <TrueBrain> 5 of them are dedicated to compiling the binaries
19:53:20 <SAC> Thanks Terkhen for clearing that up... I annoy Truebrain instead... :)
19:53:24 <TrueBrain> the rest to service your day-to-day services :)
19:53:54 <TrueBrain> 2 of them are proxies, one is a gateway, 2 are 'general' (LDAP + MySQL), the rest are dedicated servies
19:54:03 <TrueBrain> guess that shows a tiny bit with what I mean: complex :D
19:54:12 <Terkhen> but don't worry about asking questions
19:54:37 <SpComb> TrueBrain: sounds like a puppet-sized problem!
19:54:41 <andythenorth> so I need to remake the css for v5 of the navbar
19:54:46 <andythenorth> but the navbars are all wrong :P
19:54:48 <frosch123> yay, at least it is already possible to edit tags
19:54:59 <michi_cc> SAC: Suggestion for simuscape: The FAQ button in the top row is like not visible at all, a tiny bit of contrast would do wonders there.
19:55:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: FIX IT! :D
19:55:57 <TrueBrain> on the positive side btw, because of this setup, stuff is contained .. if you break into mediawiki you do just that: break into mediawiki
19:56:00 <frosch123> hmm, i suppose starting a third bananas thread about tag usage is not useful?
19:56:00 <TrueBrain> no other service runs on it
19:56:12 <TrueBrain> frosch123: integrate it witht he other
19:56:17 <TrueBrain> as in: try to find a way to avoid the abuse
19:56:20 <TrueBrain> I like the Category idea
19:56:26 <TrueBrain> just make a preset of tags available
19:56:34 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i really like to use tags instead of categories
19:56:44 <frosch123> but, the current tags are not suitable for that
19:56:46 <TrueBrain> then how do we control the abuse?
19:57:15 <frosch123> i think most tags are so stupid, because it is so hard to compare with other stuff
19:57:35 <TrueBrain> take it to a thread :D
19:57:53 <SAC> michi_cc, yes, it's been a subject also within Simuscape, so I'm bound to change it... My view on design isn't the same as many others... :P
19:58:00 <SpComb> TrueBrain: how do you handle distro updates/upgrades on all the different servers?
19:58:29 <Xaroth> debian does upgrades once every 5000 years?
19:58:30 <SpComb> or do you go around and apt-get every week?
19:58:39 <TrueBrain> every week? Hell no :P
19:59:11 <TrueBrain> once in a while, and when I receive a CVE security notification for any of the services we run
19:59:16 <TrueBrain> due to the setup, very few
19:59:37 <SpComb> I run automated unattended-upgrade for squeeze-security updates
19:59:48 <TrueBrain> I have bad experiences with them
19:59:49 <SpComb> risk of breaking stuff is smaller than the risk of nobody being arsed to update them
20:00:05 <TrueBrain> I run a large cluster of systems; I get notified if something important happens :D
20:00:10 <TrueBrain> basically, openssh-server is top priority
20:00:14 <TrueBrain> the rest is gateway'd
20:00:17 <TrueBrain> so only nginx remains, really
20:01:19 <TrueBrain> you mean, the factor of me being hit by a bus?
20:01:34 <Xaroth> or the factor of a bus being hit by you?
20:01:41 <SpComb> how many people need to get hit by busses
20:02:04 <TrueBrain> euh, how many people do we have in the development team? :P
20:02:12 <TrueBrain> assuming it doesn't happen at the same time
20:02:15 <TrueBrain> I would say most part of the world
20:02:20 <TrueBrain> sounds heavily unlikely
20:02:36 <TrueBrain> joking outside, Rb is my primary fallback (and does it when I am unavailable)
20:02:44 <SpComb> specifically the sysadmin and openttd.org infra bits?
20:02:46 <TrueBrain> all developers have access to the details, although most are not aware of that fact :P
20:03:29 <SpComb> I deal with a school infra that's entirely in-house, with only voluntary student admins that change every year
20:03:49 <TrueBrain> there should be a chain of bus-hit :P
20:04:09 <TrueBrain> no, I always made sure others could also always access the systems
20:04:15 <TrueBrain> if they can figure out what to do, is a second ofc
20:04:19 <TrueBrain> most is somewhat documented
20:04:25 <TrueBrain> but Rb seems to be managing fine, so I guess it is sane enough
20:04:49 <SpComb> I tried to solve it with puppet, but it remains to be seen if it just makes the problem worse
20:05:07 <SpComb> since now only those people able to learn and use puppet will be able to do anything :)
20:06:10 <andythenorth> something like that, only better
20:06:20 <andythenorth> the menus need inverted colour on the font
20:06:30 <andythenorth> to distinguish primary / secondary nav
20:06:37 <Yexo> <TrueBrain> all developers have access to the details, although most are not aware of that fact :P <- I think this is quite important :p
20:06:58 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: and now show selections :D
20:07:18 <andythenorth> easy once it's done though :P
20:07:25 <TrueBrain> Yexo: well, if you would ask in the dev channel, I am sure that within 24h you are logged in to the server; if you really wanted to :)
20:07:49 <Yexo> I couldn't care less, I'm happy I don't have to deal with keeping it all running
20:08:14 <Yexo> the only thing I find important is that enough people know where to find those details when they need to have them
20:08:27 <Yexo> say (however unlikely) that you and rb would dissappear at the same time
20:08:41 <Yexo> would be good to know if pm or someone else could still log in
20:08:48 <frosch123> i doom the day i learned how to post news items :p
20:08:58 <SAC> This is just an idea though, but to reflect that we're in fact one big family although having our home on different sites, would it be possible to have some smaller logos at the bottom for TT-forums, Simuscape, TT-MS Headquarters and so on...
20:09:22 <michi_cc> frosch123: CVE management isn't any better :)
20:09:32 <Yexo> SAC: great post on the forum :)
20:09:50 <TrueBrain> SAC: do you know some fine artists to make a mockup for said logo? :D
20:10:23 <SAC> Well, our logo is already done and TT-forums already have one...
20:10:24 <Yexo> having such a list of logos needs carefull thought as to which sites would be included
20:10:55 <Yexo> tt-forums/simuscape/tt-ms/openttdcoop might be obvious choices, but there are forums for other languages besides tt-ms
20:11:14 <TrueBrain> I would open it for all who comply with certain values
20:11:34 <Yexo> which is problematic to judge for forums in other languages
20:11:39 <frosch123> michi_cc: i feel lucky :)
20:11:40 <Yexo> what about the russian forum?
20:11:56 <TrueBrain> trust they control theirself in it?
20:11:58 <Terkhen> there is a small spanish forum too :P
20:12:10 <Sacro> so you use NAT for IPv4, but not for ipv
20:12:16 <Sacro> so how do I get packets out :(
20:12:20 <SAC> I think we need to have this entire discussion with all forum representatives (?)...
20:12:55 <Yexo> SAC: forum representatives is different from OpenTTD developers (for openttd.org)
20:13:24 <michi_cc> There's also Tycoonez.com if you start with all the language forums (and who knows if there's any chinese/japanese/whatever community out there).
20:13:38 <TrueBrain> so, make an open invitation to all these places
20:13:38 * andythenorth needs a large openttd logo
20:13:44 <SpComb> Sacro: you route, which requires cooperative configuration from your upstream, which IPv4 NAT does not
20:13:46 <TrueBrain> get them on IRC or what-ever, start a thread on some common ground
20:13:47 <Sacro> TrueBrain: yes, I'm trying to get packets
20:13:55 <SpComb> Sacro: unless you use DHCPv6 PD which automates it
20:14:01 <Sacro> SpComb: hmm, I have a /64, I use NAT for lxc
20:14:01 <XeryusTC> behave yourself in the more sensible parts of the forums!
20:14:04 <TrueBrain> Sacro: ah; just checking you werent talking about OpenTTD :P
20:14:07 <Terkhen> if you start a thread I'll invite the spanish forum administrator over :)
20:14:11 <TrueBrain> people are too tight up
20:14:17 <Terkhen> bbl (for real this time)
20:14:25 <SAC> TrueBrain get them on IRC or what-ever, start a thread on some common ground - That's a good idea...
20:14:25 <Sacro> oh hang on, I use iptables on v4, i'm guessing iptables6 or whatever won't touch packets
20:14:27 <XeryusTC> we´ve got offtopic for silliness
20:14:37 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: owh, losen up a bit
20:14:38 <SpComb> Sacro: you're tough out of luck if that /64 is on-link, not routed via your host
20:14:38 <XeryusTC> i dont come to the OpenTTD section to laugh at cats raping each other :P
20:14:46 <SpComb> Sacro: unless you proxy-nd or other hacks to achieve the same end result
20:14:48 <TrueBrain> I have more cats ready :P
20:15:05 <XeryusTC> please wait until caturday O:)
20:15:10 <Sacro> SpComb: hm, what I want is for my ipv4 stuff to be NAT'd out via my one address
20:15:20 <Yexo> andythenorth: you can, although not for tonight
20:15:21 <SpComb> Sacro: although, uh, dunno exactly what kind of magic lxc supports, I was talking more about kvm/xen
20:15:32 <Sacro> and for my ipv6 stuff to go in/out direct, so's I can have an AAAA exeternally accessable
20:15:46 <Sacro> I'm guessing a bridge is not the way to go
20:15:54 <Sacro> or perhaps it is, for ipv6 only :\
20:16:05 <SpComb> Sacro: since all the interfaces are in the same host kernel you can probably just do some trickery with them
20:17:01 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: also, i´m protecting you of the vengeance of orudge and Hyro ;)
20:17:17 <Sacro> ah yes, the vengeful orudge
20:17:23 <TrueBrain> I never had a warning before .. I am willing to take one
20:17:41 * andythenorth needs to redesign the site
20:17:46 <andythenorth> that's unexpected :P
20:18:29 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: keep it simple ffs
20:18:34 <TrueBrain> I only wanted 1 (!) new image
20:18:40 <TrueBrain> not a golden watch with diamonds
20:18:44 <TrueBrain> this how it always starts
20:18:53 <andythenorth> can I haz the images please?
20:18:59 <andythenorth> I tried finding them via the path
20:19:03 <andythenorth> I get django errors :P
20:19:05 <TrueBrain> Firebug tells you :P
20:19:09 <TrueBrain> ffs, let me start a browser
20:19:23 <TrueBrain> I am sorry, IRC is on a secondary computer
20:19:26 <TrueBrain> which is TERRIBLY slow
20:19:29 <TrueBrain> so I hav eno copy/paste buffer
20:20:48 <TrueBrain> SAC: I guess the main question is: where to start a thread about it; I guess tt-forums is neutral enough
20:21:11 <NGC3982> i think i just created something fantastic
20:21:14 <TrueBrain> maybe for this undertaking ask orudge if he is willing to make a temporary forum of some kind? I dunno .. I am bad at this crap, there is a reason I am in a SysOp :P
20:21:25 <NGC3982> i logged onto my shell with my mobile phone (android + irssi connectbot)
20:21:32 <TrueBrain> Intercooperation Forum Thread :D
20:21:46 <NGC3982> i used screen -rd (redraw) to make the window fit the landscape mobile display nicely
20:22:07 <NGC3982> i also log in on my htpc, but with screen -x (just imitade the latest screen rendering)
20:22:16 <NGC3982> and change the channel on the tv to the ongoing soccer game
20:22:19 <SAC> TrueBrain, yes or approach each forum admin personally with an e-mail and find out where they stand...
20:22:29 <NGC3982> == mobile phone on table, ircing with keyboard.
20:22:39 <TrueBrain> SAC: would you be willing to carry that load?
20:22:50 <SAC> ...and invite them to a chat on a specific channel...
20:23:23 <NGC3982> SpComb: old, surely. im just amazed over why i havent thought of this before.
20:23:42 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you want the orange and green? Or orange and dark grey (orange + dark grey = better)
20:23:49 <Alberth> TrueBrain: brilliant cat with paws on its ears :D do you have it at a larger size?
20:23:50 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: pick one, I live with it :P
20:23:57 <TrueBrain> Alberth: trollcats.com
20:27:10 <SAC> From one thing to another, I'm on my way to create a linkage page on Simuscape to various "family-sites" ;), where do I ask for permission to use the OpenTTD.org logo?
20:27:33 <Xaroth> the much discussed info@ address i'd say
20:28:21 <TrueBrain> so we want a LICENSE File to go with it *troll*
20:28:59 <TrueBrain> without joking, I would say, go ahead and use it, and drop an email at info@. But as I don't speak for the whole team, lets poke two others .. who were last active ....
20:29:02 <TrueBrain> Alberth / Yexo: ? :D
20:29:22 <TrueBrain> (and with drop an email, I mean: just email info@ saying I said it was fine to use, basically :P)
20:29:35 <TrueBrain> the latter just for documentation purposes, for both your and my side :)
20:29:54 <SAC> Yes, I do it the proper way... :)
20:30:05 <TrueBrain> so there you have it :)
20:30:21 <Yexo> not that I have anything specific to say about the logo, but ok :)
20:30:29 <TrueBrain> Yexo: nobody has, that is the fun part :)
20:32:41 <NGC3982> am i off completely, or does the ukranian prople still have issues with bosniaks?
20:33:09 <NGC3982> as a completely openttd related question, thati s.
20:37:46 <TrueBrain> spaces versus tabs, how nice :P
20:39:45 <andythenorth> It's a copy and paste from firebug, that's never going to work
20:40:00 <andythenorth> give me a minute, I'll have to dl the original and change
20:40:30 <TrueBrain> owh, I am already in that process, no worries
20:40:57 <andythenorth> it's like 9 lines I've added or something
20:41:19 * andythenorth missed some apple announcements or something
20:42:20 <andythenorth> oh new laptop time
20:42:26 <andythenorth> a whole extra 0.1GHZ
20:42:31 <andythenorth> now I can run YACD
20:43:53 <FLHerne> That's a whole 100MHz! :o
20:44:31 <FLHerne> That would make my laptop able to run OTTD :P
20:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's three of my first laptops combined!
20:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually played TT on that laptop :)
20:45:07 <FLHerne> 133MHz is borderline, so 200MHz+ would be about playable :D
20:45:51 <andythenorth> hmm, I could get a 15" laptop, then I get quad core :P
20:45:51 <FLHerne> I compiled OTTD on mine...took a while :-)
20:45:59 <andythenorth> but then I have an enormous laptop :P
20:46:25 <FLHerne> Good enormous, or just enormous? :P
20:46:58 <FLHerne> So enormous but useless?
20:47:41 <andythenorth> enormous but too big
20:53:48 <Alberth> reminder to self: opening a .png with gvim does not give a nice picture :p
20:56:52 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: there, published it, with some minor changes
20:57:02 <TrueBrain> did went back to CSS2, as I saw I could (I am a purist like that :D)
20:57:07 <TrueBrain> but it looks nice :D Tnx!
20:58:28 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: done and done
20:58:45 <andythenorth> bold on the main nav helps I think
20:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the matrix...
20:59:24 * FLHerne preferred the previous look :-(
20:59:59 <andythenorth> FLHerne: which one?
21:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: watching visual information in text form
21:00:39 <Alberth> I didn't see it move :p
21:00:46 <FLHerne> As on the current 'normal' site, as opposed to the new one on the test site
21:00:54 <andythenorth> what do you prefer?
21:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: early development version :)
21:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the png doesn't move either :)
21:01:15 <FLHerne> Flat colour is uninteresting :P
21:01:58 <TrueBrain> I somewhat agree with you FLHerne; but it works so much easier :P
21:02:00 <Alberth> loading xpm in gvim is much more interesting :)
21:02:05 <andythenorth> downloading all the files I need and rebuilding the directory structure so I can edit pngs in it is uninteresting :P
21:02:20 <andythenorth> also - gradient stacked on top of gradient will suck
21:02:23 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: remember I only asked to change the colour of it :P
21:02:30 <TrueBrain> that last comment is very true
21:02:33 <TrueBrain> that looks buttttttt ugly
21:02:36 <FLHerne> The sharp angles on the bar things look odd with everything else rounded, too
21:02:58 <andythenorth> I refer you to my earlier comment :P
21:03:07 <andythenorth> "now I need to rebuild the entire website"
21:03:31 <FLHerne> But then the whole thing will look flat and angular :-(
21:03:54 <andythenorth> feel free to provide a patch
21:04:19 <andythenorth> you want to round the corners on the nav?
21:04:19 * FLHerne hurriedly shuts up :P
21:06:23 <andythenorth> border-radius: 7px
21:06:37 <andythenorth> you'd better set -webkit-border-radius and -moz-border-radius too :P
21:08:47 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: there, I made a thread in the private forum to complain about myself
21:09:05 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: ugh; sorry, but that looks ugh
21:09:25 <andythenorth> just responding to the crowd
21:09:32 <andythenorth> blame the crowd :P
21:10:35 <FLHerne> That looks a bit odd, actually :-(
21:10:51 <FLHerne> Maybe 2-3px radius, just to take the angle off?
21:11:40 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: but if you are going to tweak, please make it scale better in the width etc :D :P
21:11:42 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: i should probably make a thread about your lack of professionalism and to get you removed from the dev team
21:12:26 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: I would too if I were me
21:12:32 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: nice? really?
21:12:51 * FLHerne grew up with Mac OS 7 :P
21:12:52 <TrueBrain> it looks .... too much Apple-ish
21:12:59 <TrueBrain> also a lot of other things
21:13:03 <FLHerne> Everything as RoundRects :D
21:13:21 <XeryusTC> FLHerne: i feel sorry for you
21:13:30 * andythenorth has refreshed firebug now, so it's gone...forever
21:13:30 <Xaroth> FLHerne: what XeryusTC said.
21:13:39 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: smart move :D
21:13:43 * andythenorth grew up with OS 9
21:13:51 <andythenorth> so watched a lot of bomb icons
21:14:22 * FLHerne used 8.6, 9.1 and 10.4
21:14:28 <andythenorth> there should be an updated version, where steve explains that semi-transparent menus are everywhere
21:15:04 <FLHerne> Really basic error messages as hex were annoying :-(
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22:26:14 <Rubidium> SpComb: Debian gets a new release every 2-3 years, we get a new server every 2-3 years. Then we have all kinds of new experience w.r.t. how the system should be set up, so we use the newer version of Debian (we'd be at oldstable at that moment, or testing is very near being tagged stable)
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23:56:09 <vbnm> hi, i cant run 32bpp graphics :(
23:56:41 <Supercheese> What version of OTTD?
23:56:59 <Rubidium> what graphics are you trying precisely?
23:56:59 <Supercheese> You'll need to find an appropriate .grf, what graphics are ya trying for?
23:57:03 <vbnm> i know i cant run packs of 32bpp
23:57:24 <Supercheese> That's the easiest one to get started
23:57:41 <vbnm> when i load it i have no engies and no pax wagons
23:57:54 <Rubidium> what year does your game start?
23:58:11 <vbnm> i tried 2020 but wil try earlier
23:59:02 <Rubidium> only a few diesel and electric trains seem to have been 32bpp graphics with that
continue to next day ⏵
