IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-06-03
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04:28:06 <Dr_Tan> what is "Road vehicle queuing with quantum effects"?
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05:48:21 <chlorine> Hey I observe some weird behaviour for my trains, I wonder if anybody could have any clue on what's happening?
05:48:43 <chlorine> Basically some of them go out of their way to go to stations they're not supposed to go to.
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06:27:05 <Nat_aS> trains will sometimes go directions just because they can
06:27:14 <Nat_aS> usualy this is because they can't go where they are suposed to go
06:28:49 <chlorine> Like if they're waiting for a free path?
06:29:09 <Nat_aS> or sometimes even there is no free path because one of your signals is backwards
06:29:29 <chlorine> No, the path is correct because most of the time the trains travel the line without problem.
06:29:37 <chlorine> And they always get to their destination.
06:29:59 <chlorine> But large portions of my line are a 2-way single track, so that might be the problem.
06:30:16 <chlorine> I'll improve that and see if it improves things. :)
06:30:44 <Nat_aS> yeah, trains often decide to try a diffrent route when waiting would be better
06:30:49 <Nat_aS> they don't like stoping if they can help it
06:31:09 <Nat_aS> so they sometimes will loop around if it's an option, even if it's a bad idea for your network
06:31:45 <chlorine> I hate to think of the time I'll need to upgrade the whole line to 2 tracks though :/
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07:41:34 <Alberth> bandits are running again? :)
07:47:05 <V453000> get them back to prison?
07:50:50 <andythenorth> bandit works for me, dunno about the compile farm (offline)
07:51:29 <andythenorth> ho, actually bundles server has bandit from yesterday
07:51:35 <andythenorth> appears it worked
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08:40:49 <andythenorth> would farms be better with roadtypes?
08:40:57 <andythenorth> less infrastructure
08:41:58 * andythenorth ponders an insane scheme where loading vehicles can be told to leave a station to make room for an incoming vehicle dropping off
08:47:29 <planetmaker> ho, what did you change to make it work?
08:47:44 <Alberth> maybe I am missing something, but why is a single road not enough?
08:48:27 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I fixed the stupid error I committed
08:48:41 <andythenorth> which I wouldn't have noticed locally until I did a manual clean of generated files
08:48:43 <planetmaker> :-) I'm happy that it works again
08:49:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: with road vehicles at farms, I need a 2-4 tile station for pickup cargo 1, 2-4 tile station for pickup cargo 2, 1 tile station drop off FMSP
08:49:36 <andythenorth> and also loops for queing
08:49:47 <andythenorth> because RVs are stupid about routing to depots
08:50:38 <planetmaker> oh, lol, Alberth :-)
08:50:43 <andythenorth> worse with trams, because trams are bigger
08:50:58 <V453000> RVs are indeed ridiculously dumb about routing to depots - espcecially as you dont have any means to make them do it right as signals with trains
08:51:19 <andythenorth> I have to build a lot of depots, and/or use force-to-depot orders
08:51:20 <planetmaker> you can use "waypoints" aka drive-through road stops
08:51:36 <V453000> well I guess it is rather the lack of various tracks than signals
08:51:52 <V453000> well sure, waypoints ... but if you set autoreplace they dont really care :D
08:52:28 <V453000> "well that is a nice waypoint but you know what? I have autoreplace, I will screw up with the worst depot I could find" is their logic I think
08:52:44 <V453000> or something close to that ^^
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08:56:26 <andythenorth> ^ these are relatively low production farms
08:57:02 <andythenorth> there is 946t of sugar beet waiting at one of them :P
08:57:11 <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to build more trucks to take it away
08:57:47 <Alberth> what if you make a loop, so trucks can use it from both sides?
09:00:38 <andythenorth> these are only 15t
09:07:31 <andythenorth> covering the map in rail track?
09:07:42 * andythenorth forgot; openttd is a train game
09:07:57 <andythenorth> perhaps I should rm -r bandit/*
09:08:04 <andythenorth> saving everyone a lot of trouble
09:08:13 <andythenorth> these farms are both ugly and tedious
09:08:29 <Alberth> they're a challenge :p
09:08:39 <FLHerne> They're brilliant fun :D
09:08:55 <andythenorth> low production doesn't work; high production means 'click 1 billion times to clone yet-another-truck'
09:09:59 <Alberth> trucks just scale badly
09:10:13 <FLHerne> What's wrong with low-production, deliver supplies for a bit to get slightly-higher-production?
09:10:26 <andythenorth> if production is low, it's not worth the cost of building the route
09:10:42 <andythenorth> and the secondary processor produces ~zero cargo
09:11:18 <telanus> sorry for noob question
09:11:19 <telanus> But why is ogfx-trains.tar.zip suddenly so big. Last time I downloaded it ( a bit more than a month ago) it was hardly a meg, now 38 meg ?
09:11:42 <FLHerne> They added 32-bit trains, didn't they?
09:11:50 <Zuu_> I started on a GS that would clone vehicles for you and sell them as well if production goes down. However, I got the idication that this kind of script was not welcome by the devs. So if released, the API functions used to clone/sell might be closed down in 1.3.
09:12:12 <andythenorth> I think my goals here are fundamentally incompatible
09:12:22 <Zuu_> Thus, it was never completed nor released.
09:12:22 <andythenorth> - moderate or high production, to get enough cargo out
09:12:30 <andythenorth> - desire to have minimal infrastructure at farms
09:12:45 <andythenorth> these are in conflict, and it's not an interesting conflict
09:14:24 <FLHerne> That's ten, with another couple off the edge. Works ok :-)
09:14:25 <andythenorth> are those all feeding one processor?
09:15:00 <FLHerne> They all go to the rail station in the middle, then by train to the far side of the map :P
09:15:11 <andythenorth> so you get pretty high production out at the other end
09:15:14 <FLHerne> I've got a few clusters like that...
09:15:26 <andythenorth> so I play 256x256 maps
09:15:32 <andythenorth> I get 2 grain farms maybe
09:15:36 <andythenorth> maybe 1 sheep farm
09:15:50 <FLHerne> Mine are 512x512 or 512x1024 mostly
09:16:11 <FLHerne> Make farms more common on smaller maps? :-)
09:16:19 <andythenorth> this is one possibility yes
09:16:27 <andythenorth> we now have a cb for construction probability
09:16:29 <FLHerne> Can Newgrfs detect map size?
09:17:06 <FLHerne> Oh, ok. Would be possible then :-)
09:17:21 <andythenorth> the electrified tramways running all over the countryside don't bother you?
09:18:06 <__ln__> in continental europe it's normal to have electricity in the countryside
09:18:35 <FLHerne> I'd rather have unelectrified ones
09:18:47 <FLHerne> No roadtypes yet, though :-(
09:19:47 <andythenorth> how are you delivering FMSP?
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09:20:56 <FLHerne> Those little ones you added...
09:21:38 <FLHerne> The Plant Fibre trains come back with FMSP (Autorefit) and then the trams distribute them
09:21:54 <andythenorth> I only see one station at most farms
09:22:02 <andythenorth> how do you get the FMSP delivered?
09:22:17 <andythenorth> without being blocked by loading trams?
09:23:14 <Zuu> If the trams are point to point, they could use autorefit to deliver farm supplies on the way back.
09:23:42 <Zuu> If they visit several stations and load a little bit here and there, that will not work though.
09:23:49 <FLHerne> Turning signs off for good screenshots doesn't help that :P
09:24:09 <andythenorth> you don't have depots at the pickup stations?
09:24:22 <FLHerne> HEQS doesn't autorefit yet, does it?
09:24:25 <andythenorth> how do you prevent 'tram arrives, turns around, goes back (long way) to depot for service'?
09:24:39 * FLHerne turned off breakdowns/services
09:24:51 <FLHerne> It just gets very annoying
09:25:12 <andythenorth> it bothers me that the feature is so broken
09:25:18 <andythenorth> turning it off seems like cheating
09:25:29 <FLHerne> When I have quad-track mainlines at capacity, I really don't want holdups...
09:25:53 <FLHerne> ...especially because those the stop the service and cause more breakdowns :-(
09:25:54 <andythenorth> breakdowns / servicing doesn't add interesting challenge, it's jus tedious
09:25:57 <andythenorth> yet I leave it on :P
09:26:07 <andythenorth> btw HEQS does autorefit trams, don't use it, it causes a trapped assert, and HEQS will be disabled
09:26:28 <FLHerne> So basically, it doesn't? :P
09:27:02 <andythenorth> 'vehicles may not change length'
09:27:12 <andythenorth> but of course, the spec also allows that they can
09:27:26 <FLHerne> Separate vehicles for lengths?
09:27:44 <FLHerne> I think I said that before, actually :-(
09:27:47 <andythenorth> removing auto-refit would be the more correct solution
09:27:57 <andythenorth> as length-changing predates it
09:29:07 <FLHerne> But how many sets actually use length-changing anyway?
09:29:38 <FLHerne> I know. Can't think of any others though.
09:30:03 <Chris_Booth> erm there was a bus set I was using the otherday
09:30:18 <Chris_Booth> but only 2 or 3 out of all the RV sets
09:30:36 <FLHerne> Length-changing breaks AIs anyway, and auto-refit is more use than a slight reduction in buy-menu entries
09:32:21 <Chris_Booth> Ikarus was the other set
09:32:38 <Chris_Booth> oh and Long Vehicles
09:32:47 <Chris_Booth> so those 3 are the only 3 I know of
09:32:56 <andythenorth> some tram sets use it
09:33:01 <andythenorth> BANDIT will use it
09:33:04 <FLHerne> Do those get broken by auto-refits?
09:33:17 <andythenorth> if they use auto-refit they will be disabled
09:33:58 <FLHerne> Perhaps there should be a 'don't let the player autorefit these' flag of some kind?
09:34:11 <FLHerne> Although autorefitting would be better :P
09:34:30 <Chris_Booth> don't mean to sound stupid, but what is autorefit?
09:34:55 <Terkhen> Chris_Booth: refit your vehicles to different cargos at stations
09:35:19 <Chris_Booth> oh so removing the need for to go depot and refit
09:35:20 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Trains stable and OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles nightly support it
09:35:21 <FLHerne> Based on what's there, too :D
09:35:38 <FLHerne> So makes multi-cargo trains possible finally :-)
09:35:51 <andythenorth> FLHerne: auto-refit has to be explicitly enabled, so it won't break existing sets
09:35:58 <Terkhen> in OpenGFX+ we adopted a scheme based on the cargo type and the vehicle/wagon type
09:36:18 <andythenorth> but well-meaning authors can enable it without understanding that it causes the grf to be disabled / game to be paused with warning (can't remember which)
09:36:25 <Terkhen> you can't refit a wagon that has been carrying coal to wheat without cleaning it at a depot first :P
09:36:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: So why does HEQS not-exactly-support it?
09:36:54 <andythenorth> (1) I didn't enable it for all vehicles yet
09:37:01 <Chris_Booth> can you implicitly tell auto refit to refit to only one cargo, something like oil -> autorefit to petrol -> autorefit to engineering supplies -> autorefit to oil?
09:37:03 <FLHerne> Or do you count as a'well-meaning author'?
09:37:15 <andythenorth> (2) the vehicles it is enabled for should not have it enabled
09:37:35 <Chris_Booth> hhhm could make my FIRS station 50% smaller
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09:42:39 * FLHerne grumbles about poor livestock support in UKRS2
09:42:55 <FLHerne> Realistic, but very inconvenient :-(
09:45:01 <andythenorth> you need trucks after about 1965
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09:45:34 <FLHerne> I know. That's the probelem :-(
09:45:48 <Chris_Booth> sounds strange forcing you to change from trains to trucks in 1965
09:46:29 <FLHerne> Realistic for the UK...
09:46:39 <FLHerne> Not helpful in OTTD though
09:47:25 <Chris_Booth> the UK is a strange place
09:49:34 <FLHerne> Perfectly normal. Everywhere else seems strange from here, though...
09:50:43 <Chris_Booth> lol, being from the UK I think it is strange
09:51:43 * FLHerne was joking. Definitely strange :P
09:52:15 <FLHerne> The rail system just doesn't make sense anymore...
10:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> where's glx when you need him?
10:04:10 <Terkhen> tycoondemon: try #openttdcoop
10:04:23 * Terkhen thought that the kicking was automatic :P
10:04:40 <__ln__> it is but only when glx is here, or something like that
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10:32:12 <__ln__> when will the OpenTTD user interface be competely redesigned and fucked up to make it touch-optimized?
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10:38:05 <Alberth> when the keyboard and mice have gone
10:40:45 <frosch123> yeah, i wondered whether that was also the idea behind the default-packager of wheezy
10:42:45 <__ln__> in two years all the desktops and laptops at homes are replaced by tablets, and the number of OTTD users will drop to zero because it's not touch-touch-touch.
10:44:46 * andythenorth wonders if drawing pixels is easier on tablet
10:45:05 <andythenorth> also andythenorth forgot the golden YouTube rule
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11:08:36 <andythenorth> this pixa thing is quite good
11:22:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: space after comma in tuples?
11:22:54 <Alberth> space after comma always
11:23:22 <Alberth> there is a reason why the spacebar is so large :p
11:23:26 * andythenorth has caved in and is hard-coding some x-y offsets
11:23:42 <andythenorth> in every other part of BANDIT I've been able to use magic pixels for locating sprite sequences
11:27:59 <andythenorth> if this works, BANDIT will composite truck cabs with bodies and chassis
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11:53:40 <andythenorth> so when I update pixa, how will the compile farm install of it be updated?
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12:12:15 <andythenorth> I can no longer import pixa
12:12:53 <andythenorth> setup.py doesn't put it in the correct path
12:14:16 <frosch123> hmm, it does not longer crash, it does something different than before, it was wrong before... how to tell whether it is right now?
12:15:15 <andythenorth> did it build a grf?
12:15:28 <andythenorth> or did you try the latest pixa?
12:15:45 * andythenorth really is starting to hate setuptools
12:15:56 <FLHerne> Aargh. 14,726 Passengers waiting :-(
12:16:06 <frosch123> no, i am at FS#4254
12:16:12 <FLHerne> I need bigger trams :P
12:18:26 <FLHerne> Hmm, might work. I'd have to blow up a lot of stuff to make room though :-(
12:18:50 * FLHerne doubles the number of trams
12:20:38 <andythenorth> so how do I install a python package?
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12:21:46 <frosch123> alberts method with PYTHONPATH worked well for me
12:21:55 <frosch123> no need to mess with the system
12:23:26 <andythenorth> just wondering why the setup.py fails
12:23:32 <andythenorth> it's built as per instructions
12:25:07 <Alberth> no rights to install it at its destination?
12:26:40 <andythenorth> Writing /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages/Pixa-0.2dev-py2.6.egg-info
12:26:48 <andythenorth> but that python won't see it
12:27:27 <andythenorth> it expects it to be here: /Library/Python/2.6/site-packages/pixa
12:27:33 <andythenorth> for reasons I can't discern
12:28:06 <andythenorth> I've copied it there manually, but this suggests my setup.py is junk
12:30:45 <Alberth> or the eggy stuff is junk
12:31:02 <Alberth> which I consider a real possibility
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12:32:44 <andythenorth> there's another way besides setuptools?
12:33:56 <Alberth> I used either distutils or autoconf tools
12:34:21 <andythenorth> actually this is distutils
12:34:21 <Alberth> where the former is the python way of doing things, and the latter the gnu way of doing things
12:35:06 * Alberth looks at the pixa setup.py file
12:35:46 <andythenorth> grab your towel :P
12:37:10 <Alberth> so your Python setup is insane?
12:37:46 <andythenorth> also...I added PixaShiftDX, alongside PixaShiftDY
12:37:58 <andythenorth> but might be better to have PixaShiftDXDY
12:39:04 <Alberth> seems better, unless you always shift horiontally or vertically
12:39:24 <andythenorth> no, I have a case now to do both
12:39:42 <andythenorth> what do I do about backwards compatibility?
12:40:07 <andythenorth> ignore it and see if anyone complains?
12:40:17 <Alberth> def PixaShiftDY(dy): return PixaShiftXY(0, dy)
13:40:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have a function that has args x, y
13:41:11 <andythenorth> and I have the args in a tuple (x, y)
13:41:21 <telanus> Hi. Translating today, and struggling a small bit :(
13:41:21 <telanus> Is it OK to translate game tick (reference to game time) as speletjie tyd (= game time). As we don't have the idea/concept of game ticks in Afrikaans
13:41:40 <andythenorth> how can I unpack the tuple to args in a small amount of code (without modifying the function)
13:42:27 <andythenorth> or maybe I just modify the function :P
13:43:27 <andythenorth> seemed like a common case
13:43:36 <telanus> already didn't translate "scrolling" as the concept is more understood in english than afrikaans
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13:45:22 <Alberth> telanus: game tick is more a time-step
13:46:43 <telanus> I'll leave it as "ticks" then
13:47:43 <Zuu> Each in-game day have 74 ticks.
14:02:53 <frosch123> so, a tick is rough 20 minutes :p
14:04:49 <andythenorth> did I mention ship smoke recently?
14:05:00 * andythenorth goes back to trucks
14:06:36 * FLHerne waits patiently for andythenorth to finish them :P
14:09:05 <Alberth> he prefers you to impatiently help him :p
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15:07:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24321 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Change/Fix [FS#4254]: [NewGRF] Group vehicles in the purchase list properly by source GRF, but also consider engine GRFID overrides.
15:14:11 <andythenorth> ukrs2 seems less jumbled up in the buy menu now
15:23:19 <Elukka> COULD YOUR CHILDREN BE CODING IN LUA?
15:24:17 <Alberth> language is too small to be useful
15:25:18 <Elukka> good enough for israeli and/or american cyberwarfare
15:27:40 * andythenorth has minor brainache
15:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: worse... it's based on the ENGLISH LANGUAGE, which is spoken/understood in MOST OF THE WORLD!
15:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> AND 99% OF ALL TERRORISTS ATE BREAD 24 HOURS BEFORE SUICIDE BOMBING!
15:34:39 <__ln__> actually english probably is not spoken/understood in most of the world
15:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: not by most of the people, but among larger groups of people it's rather likely that there is at least one person understanding it, who can translate to the others
15:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the estimate was that there are around 1 billion people speaking english
15:36:56 <__ln__> but they aren't equally distributed within the earth population
15:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the british empire covered around 25% of the worlds territorries, and that was after they lost the USA
15:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but there's a reason why english is the lingua franca of todays world, and not e.g. french or german (which both were for some time in the past), or greek or latin (which is somewhat longer ago)
15:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: most villagers will not speak a foreign language, but most villages have educated people/leaders which do, and then that foreign language is very likely to be english
15:43:43 <__ln__> i agree it's probably more lingua franca than any other language, but english is not widely spoken or understood in places as close as Belgium or Poland.
15:57:08 <chlorine> Phew I finished converting my line to two one-way tracks, and it seems it stopped the glitches I observed, but it took _forever_!
15:57:28 <chlorine> Either I'm not good at it or my map is really two big (I suspect a mix of both)
15:58:52 <__ln__> i guess two big is better than three big
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15:59:10 <chlorine> Sorry for the typo :p
15:59:24 <chlorine> And by the way does anybody know how to get rid of the away status?
15:59:49 <chlorine> /away tells me I'm already marked away...
16:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> [705] away Without an argument, it will set you back.
16:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, with / obviously
16:06:50 <chlorine> With the / it tells me I'm already away, without it prints away
16:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> 03.06.2012 18:07] [Abwesend] Sie sind nun als abwesend markiert (Grund: test).
16:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> [03.06.2012 18:07] [Abwesend] Sie sind nicht mehr als abwesend markiert.
16:08:05 <chlorine> Well I guess I'll just bue the ghost of the channel...
16:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> must be your client screwing things up
16:08:43 <chlorine> Yes I guess it must. I thought xchat was a good one though.
16:09:02 <chlorine> No big problem though.
16:13:33 <__ln__> there could be some other command for that, /unaway or something.
16:14:19 <chlorine> Should have been obvious.
16:28:04 <frosch123> you're more than 6 months too early
16:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: does "Hyvää Päivää" have a meaning?
16:36:10 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it means "guten tag"
16:36:55 <__ln__> the second word shouldn't be capitalized though
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16:43:22 <chlorine> Is there a setting or grf that allows to give orders like 'load until 50% full' to vehicles?
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16:46:25 <Zuu> There is a trick to have trucks shuttle back and forth between the station and a depot (or dummy station) and load cargo if available at the station. Using a conditional order, the truck will exit this back and forth shuttle and go to the destination when a given condition, eg. 50% load is met.
16:46:54 <Zuu> Check out eg. AIAI. It employs that tactic.
16:47:15 <chlorine> I'll check it out, but I'm not sure it would be useful in my case.
16:47:54 <chlorine> I would like to use it to have passenger trains wait a bit if they come in the station when it's completely empty, but I don't want to make them wait till they're completely full.
16:48:12 <chlorine> Well, I'm gonna go and try to improve my shuttle service to the train station.
16:48:21 <Zuu> Using the timetable, you can make them wait eg. 5 or 10 days.
16:48:44 <Zuu> However, in that case, they will wait the set time amount also if they are already full.
16:49:45 <chlorine> I'm not mastering my network enough to use a timetable I guess.
16:50:04 <chlorine> But that's something I want to try out sometime.
16:50:34 <Zuu> You don't need to set times for the traveling links. Only set the wait time at stations. That means that the trains will wait so many days at the given station.
16:51:40 <Zuu> If you time-table and also set wait time at stations, then the train might wait shorter time on the stations if they run late. But if you don't time the transport links, the trains don't know if they are late and will thus just wait the given time at the stations.
16:51:57 <chlorine> Hmm, this sounds good! :) I'll go check it.
16:52:34 <Zuu> The downside to this is that if a train become full, it will still sit around and wait. But at least it will contribute to the station rating also if its full I think.
16:57:40 <andythenorth> "most of my code is optimised not for speed or beauty, but for later doing find and replace' :P
16:59:28 <chlorine> I've set the waiting time to 2 days, it shouldn't block the train long and allow _some_ waiting.
16:59:39 <chlorine> It seems to work fine, thanks. :)
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17:39:21 <Alberth> for some reason I always think you're missing pixels at the left (due to the missing white) :)
17:41:12 <andythenorth> I could add spurious padding :P
17:41:22 <andythenorth> trips me up too sometimes
17:43:00 <andythenorth> anyway, this is cabs + bodies composited
17:43:07 <andythenorth> adding the rear wheels is probably trivial
17:43:47 <andythenorth> I need to tweak the appearance quite a bit
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24322 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt german.txt latvian.txt lithuanian.txt):
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 22 changes by telanus
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 25 changes by Jogio
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
17:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 65 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:26:36 <Terkhen> no 32bpp with 8x zoom?
19:26:59 <planetmaker> Damn you Terkhen, you stole my comment!
19:27:11 <Terkhen> it was an easy one :)
19:28:57 <V453000> nice trucks indeed andy
19:32:03 <andythenorth> watch how fast I can draw one carrying steel
19:32:19 <V453000> after months of coding
19:34:42 * planetmaker wonders why the owner bought such big truck for so little cargo ;-)
19:35:21 <andythenorth> steel is heavy :P
19:35:50 <planetmaker> I also wonder why the vehicle in the left-turn (moving NW) has the steel coil nearly falling off to the back of the sprite
19:36:12 <planetmaker> (right most sprites)
19:36:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: good catch on the coil falling off
19:37:52 <andythenorth> I wouldn't have linked it if it had been deaths :|
19:42:46 <andythenorth> improved the coil placement
19:44:38 <planetmaker> looks much better andythenorth :-)
19:45:19 <planetmaker> __ln__: the difference is "unharmed" vs. "worst road crash".
19:53:13 <Nat_aS> what's a good scenerio>
19:53:21 <Nat_aS> I'm pretty much done with my barrens map
19:53:28 <Nat_aS> I have almost all the industries covered
19:53:35 <Nat_aS> just a few farms and mines
19:53:44 <Nat_aS> but all the sawmills and most of the copper mines
19:53:56 * Terkhen prefers to generate random ones
19:54:10 * Nat_aS can't stand random maps
19:54:29 <Nat_aS> I like it when there are tons of priamaries and few secondaries
19:54:38 <Nat_aS> so you can focus on building a network
19:55:06 <Terkhen> pregenerated ones have the annoying habit of forcing you to use certain NewGRF sets :)
19:55:40 <Nat_aS> but I find i don't get (many) errors if I swap trainsets before building anything
19:55:53 <Nat_aS> if I build something, and then swap them, then trains start vanishing later on
19:55:59 <Nat_aS> but not if I do it first
19:56:28 <Alberth> load scenario, save heightmap, load heightmap as game
19:56:40 <Nat_aS> then I have to rebuild towns
19:59:37 <frosch123> Nat_aS: write a newgrf to reduce the number of secondary industries to 1
20:00:22 <frosch123> for default industries just set the probability to 1, or even use cb 28
20:09:21 <Sacro> grr, is there an ubuntu dedicated server package that doesn't require half of X?
20:09:42 <Alberth> ubuntu and not X ? :D
20:10:10 <planetmaker> like windows without gui? ;-)
20:10:14 <Sacro> I'm running Ubuntu Server
20:10:39 <frosch123> is there also kubuntu server?
20:10:49 <frosch123> which uses kde instead of gnome for the server?
20:10:58 <Alberth> that's for the other half of X :)
20:11:36 <glx> Sacro: compile yourself then
20:11:48 <Sacro> actually, the requirements for compiling don't include all that cruft
20:11:54 <Sacro> but do require the -dev stuff
20:11:55 <frosch123> btw. someone knows when debian will release separate releases for touch-screen and non-touch-screen devices?
20:12:14 <Alberth> Sacro: I don't think ubuntu understands that people may not want to use X
20:12:26 <Sacro> Alberth: it's not ubuntu that's the issue
20:12:45 <Sacro> it's openttd not releasing openttd-server packages :p
20:13:11 <Alberth> oh, for those 20 server owners?
20:13:15 <Terkhen> you can compile OpenTTD with the options to allow that
20:13:34 <Terkhen> or use a normal (GUI) package for your sever
20:13:34 <Sacro> Terkhen: I was hoping they'd be prebuilt so I don't need to install all the -dev packages on my server
20:13:49 <Alberth> where half of them use windows probably, so have a gui anyway
20:14:02 <Terkhen> what I mean is: we give precompiled builds and the options for anyone else to compile the game as they want to
20:14:13 <Terkhen> linux distributions could easily create openttd-server packages if they wanted to
20:14:20 <Alberth> build at your desktop :p
20:16:59 <Terkhen> if your server had Arch too you could create openttd-server in the aur :P
20:17:13 <Sacro> Terkhen: I already wrote all the ones in the AUR
20:17:20 <Sacro> the stable PKGBUILD was written by me too
20:17:40 <Terkhen> I checked them when I installed Arch
20:17:51 <Sacro> -svn still has me as the contributer
20:17:58 <Sacro> I wrote the first one back for 0.4.0
20:18:08 <Sacro> that was awful Makefile hackery
20:18:30 <frosch123> a dedicated build which does not need all the weird libraries is probably portable between distributions
20:19:07 <Terkhen> yes, IIRC icu is the biggest PITA
20:19:07 <Sacro> I'd rather have a deb :(
20:19:12 <Sacro> might install LXC and do it in there
20:35:24 <chlorine> What's a gook moneymaker train for toyland?
20:35:39 <chlorine> I chose bubbles but I think I might have made a mistake :/
20:35:49 <Terkhen> sugar, toffee and candyfloss
20:36:38 <andythenorth> what is toyland? :o
20:36:59 <chlorine> toyland is a type of map you can play on.
20:37:32 <chlorine> Industries are replaced by toy versions, like candy factory that requires sugar, fuzzy drink factory which requires bubbles, and so on.
20:37:43 <chlorine> It's the first time I'm trying to play a toyland game.
20:37:54 <frosch123> yup, indeed, sugar, toffee, candyfloss
20:38:17 <frosch123> all go to sweet factory, so you get lots of sweets quite fast
20:38:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: the climate with the most detailed industry animations
20:38:57 * andythenorth ponders patching his game to remove toyland
20:39:03 <andythenorth> just the menu item
20:39:17 <chlorine> I'll wait to get some of my money from the bubble train then I'll try sugar, toffee or candyfloss
20:39:44 <Terkhen> chlorine: HEQS works fine for carrying those cargos in toyland :D
20:39:58 <andythenorth> maybe I should change the climate availability on that :P
20:40:10 <Terkhen> as long as you don't mind a fork :P
20:40:19 <frosch123> sadly av8 seems to have done that
20:40:35 <frosch123> there are no planes with av8 in toyland, it does not even give an error message
20:40:44 <andythenorth> toyland specific graphics: antenna for RC
20:40:49 <chlorine> Terkhen, what's HEQS?
20:40:50 <andythenorth> [and remove the smoke effects]
20:41:40 <Terkhen> chlorine: HEQS is a road vehicle NewGRF set that includes Heavy Equipment, such as mining vehicles
20:41:50 <Terkhen> but the author might not like it being used in toyland :P
20:42:01 <planetmaker> most awesome cargo IMHO are bubbles :-)
20:42:28 <Terkhen> frosch123: yes, I never understood that
20:42:57 <chlorine> Ah, heavy vehicules would be nice, my trains are _slow_!
20:43:08 <chlorine> These bubbles must weigh a lot! :p
20:43:28 * Alberth always does the toy chain
20:43:29 <chlorine> But it _is_ quite awesome to be carrying bubbles around in train cars. :)
20:43:31 <planetmaker> one ton of bubbles surely weighs more than one ton of feathers :-P
20:43:52 <andythenorth> right BANDIT is finished, let's release v1.0
20:44:05 <chlorine> OK, I'll just have to try all the industry chains.
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20:44:34 <andythenorth> oops, andythenorth was smoking crack
20:44:34 <andythenorth> BANDIT is not finished :P
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20:49:49 <chlorine> Darn I messed up my signals and now my trains are blocked!
20:49:55 <chlorine> I still got a lot to learn.
20:50:41 <Terkhen> still happens even after you learn
20:50:58 <opa> then you just got a bigger mess :P
20:51:59 <chlorine> I don't know if it's reassuring or not.
20:52:18 <chlorine> Anyway it was a smaller mistake than it seemed, I've already fixed it. :)
20:52:25 <Terkhen> it means that the fun will still be there after you learn :P
20:55:49 <Sacro> Collation: the regex [a-f] imbued with a French locale should match the character é. torti[^x]a in a Spanish locale should match "tortilla", as the double-l is counted as a single character.
20:55:54 <Sacro> Similarly, \w in a Finnish locale should match the character ä (but [a-z] should not, as å, ä and ö collate after z in Finnish
20:56:49 <Terkhen> I tried to understand collations when I coded natural sorting... my conclusion was that collation is a magic box that does language specific stuff
20:58:33 <__ln__> indeed, but that's why locale data exists
20:59:54 <__ln__> although... locale data doesn't always contain all the details
21:01:22 <Terkhen> stuff like "ll is considered a single character in spanish" is difficult to be taken into account
21:01:33 <Terkhen> although I think that's not true anymore :P
21:02:14 <__ln__> are you aware of the standard C function strcoll()?
21:05:10 <__ln__> probably implementation-defined
21:05:17 <TinoDidriksen> Doesn't do UTF.
21:05:29 <TinoDidriksen> At least not correctly.
21:05:45 <__ln__> program correctness is so 80's
21:06:15 <Terkhen> it's not an option then
21:06:38 <Terkhen> honestly, I don't know much about different options to do language specific sorting
21:06:47 <Terkhen> I just used ICU because OpenTTD already included it
21:08:21 <TinoDidriksen> ICU is by far the best...
21:09:41 <michi_cc> More like the only one... Unicode (and not just the encoding stuff) is a *monster* :)
21:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm not an expert, but "name[strlen(name)-1]=0" seems a little nonsensical to me...
21:10:43 <TinoDidriksen> It trims the last char from the string.
21:11:46 <Zuu> does it work with multi byte characters?
21:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a line following an fgets, so possibly it's supposed to remove the '\n'
21:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> see... it'll already fail on an "\n\r"
21:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> or the other way around
21:17:05 <TinoDidriksen> It's not great code, sure...
21:19:24 <TinoDidriksen> for (size_t z = strlen(name) ; z > 1 && (name[z-1] == '\n' || name[z-1] == '\r' || name[z-1] == '...all the other valid linebreaks...') ; --z) { name[z-1] = 0; }
21:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> call this stuff "trim", "strip" or similar, and make it a libary function...
21:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> life could be so easy...
21:21:30 <Terkhen> if you want nice, shiny stuff in your common libraries just use Java, but the real world is nastier :P
21:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll stick to python unless there's a very good reason not to...
21:22:07 <TinoDidriksen> Or use C++ and Boost and ICU.
21:22:54 <Terkhen> I can't talk about python myself, but from what I have heard it is nice in these regards too :P
21:23:48 <Terkhen> TinoDidriksen: I was talking about niceness in the "default libraries have a good, consistent function for everything" way
21:24:20 <TinoDidriksen> Python and Unicode wasn't very nice in Python 2. No clue about Python 3, though, but 2 got it mostly wrong.
21:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with java is that it's very noisy bloat until you can actually start doing what you want
21:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that stuff always puts me off
21:26:35 <Terkhen> indeed, that's why I mentioned "the real world"
21:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> when i programmed java some 10-ish years ago (man, i'm getting old) you needed to go through all kinds of hoops to get even a console input
21:27:59 <Terkhen> oh, that kind of bloat? no, it is quite easy now
21:28:17 <Terkhen> mostly everything is easy
21:28:41 <Terkhen> but you have to create a lot of objects to do simple things
21:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the other kind of bloat is that you need to specify deep.libary.location.in.the.structure.to.do.something()
21:29:11 <Terkhen> you can use imports for that
21:29:31 <chlorine> OK, time to go to bed. See you!
21:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and a few shortcomings that made it annoying
21:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> while almost everything feels natural in python
21:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> only the lack of switch/case i occasionally stumble upon
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continue to next day ⏵
