IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-28
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00:00:39 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
00:12:16 <drac_boy> doing ok, just trying sort out a few major things with no luck as usual -_-
00:13:07 <Hazzard> What kind of things are you trying to sort out?
00:15:12 <drac_boy> a laptop, some way to deal with the various videos here, a bit re this grf tracking table sheet I have, bit about cellphones
00:15:17 <drac_boy> thats them basically :)
00:38:07 <drac_boy> what you doing hazzard?
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01:58:08 <Hungarian1986> is anyone around?
01:58:58 <Hungarian1986> i could use some help
01:59:17 <Hungarian1986> because no matter what i do the 1.2.0 can't run with the base graphics
01:59:30 <Hungarian1986> it write an error that there aremissing sprites
01:59:56 <Hungarian1986> and it has strange font type, what is annoying, and also some missing GUI guttons
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02:06:42 <Hungarian1986> can anyone help?
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06:49:03 <NGC3982> any tip on grfs i can use with the nuts trainset? :)
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07:06:30 * andythenorth caused an assert
07:20:45 <Terkhen> now we need to create another one
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08:32:53 <Alberth> you can usually test with the auto-completion failing (or not)
08:33:56 <Alberth> you don't have nick auto-completion (eg type Zx<TAB>)
08:34:31 <Alberth> with me, it expands to the list of nick starting with Zx
08:37:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> why would i need that, i got a list of all nicks ont he channel on the side
08:37:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can tab as well
08:37:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> but the fact i can auto-complete to it
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08:37:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> doesnt mean they are here reading it
08:37:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> it just means they hover in teh channel
08:37:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> its IRC, afking isnt unusual
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08:43:32 <NGC3982> nick<tab> is un-living-without-full.
08:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> <NataS> 42 megabytes dosn't seem THAT large. <- but the uncompressed image will easily be several GB. (e.g. 32bpp, 16k*32k pixels = 2GB)
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08:54:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> that was yesterday no?
08:54:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was around when he was talking about that :P
08:58:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so what are you wanting from FIRS economies? Fewer industry types? Different game balance?
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08:59:03 <Alberth> fewer would be useful for new players, I think
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09:01:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> most industry replacements have either way to much options (ECS vectors) or simply require a different playstyle, where a lower ammount of types would certainly help
09:01:44 <planetmaker> A few limited subsets would make sense
09:02:13 <planetmaker> Like discussed much earlier: maybe mining, agriculture focus as two
09:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm thinking a "basic set", "agricultural set", "chemical set", "industrial set" and "complete set"
09:02:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar setup as ECS then?
09:03:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> as imo that is exactly what ECS did
09:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> no, less combinations
09:03:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> split it up in some sets/vectors
09:03:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> and then have insane ammounts of combinatories
09:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and you guys change colours immediately!
09:04:19 <andythenorth> I had originally: Basic Mining Farming Oil Seafaring Tropical Island Metropolitan Heavy Industry Mountains
09:04:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> wood -> timber -> goods, Crudeoil -> useable oils/plastics -> goods, Iron ore+coal -> steel -> goods
09:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm regularly going crazy for discussing with two people having the same colour :p
09:04:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> end product of each chain is goods
09:04:39 <andythenorth> hmm let's try that with spaces
09:05:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> so you have wood -> goods via timber, oil -> goods via plastics/petrols and minerals -> goods via steel
09:05:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> then i think i left out the agriculture
09:05:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> so lets add in some lifestock/weat/plantations etc -> food in there as well
09:05:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> for the sake of it
09:05:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause so I worked out combinations of cargo + industry for:
09:05:44 <andythenorth> All, Basic, Mining, Farming, Oil, Seafaring, Tropical Island, Metropolitan, Heavy Industry, Mountains
09:05:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> that gives you a really basic industry setup
09:06:06 <andythenorth> I'm not sure some of those are valid though
09:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "basic" should have fewer agricultural goods, like only a grain farm and a livestock farm, no milk, fibres or stuff. also non-essential industries like scrapyards be taken out.
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09:08:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: all those might be good economies. But not well defined. Starting with fewer might be better
09:08:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> keep it simple as i mentioned
09:08:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> end product is goods for ALL industries (so yeah im killing off powerplants
09:08:57 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx are you talking about FIRS or something else? ;)
09:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: there are no power plants in FIRS
09:09:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> im talking industries in general
09:09:12 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: are you designing your own set?
09:09:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> but applies to FIRS i recon :P
09:09:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> i always found FIRS and ECS a bit to confusing
09:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: you are answering a question that was not asked
09:09:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> im good at that
09:09:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> boredom hit me hard
09:09:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> i dont wanna look at the 1283 issues on TC
09:10:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> nor at the 25 assigned to me
09:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: as such, you are not helping the discussion
09:11:27 <andythenorth> so there are currently zero known bugs in FIRS
09:11:33 <andythenorth> 0.7.4 will go out today
09:11:39 <andythenorth> 0.7.5 has a few things I want to fix
09:11:45 <andythenorth> but 0.8.0 could add economies
09:11:55 <andythenorth> it's either that, or animation / snow graphics
09:12:30 <andythenorth> I think economies will need lots of tweaking, so I don't want to dump them into 1.0 at the last minute
09:13:06 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What economies were you thinking of?
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09:14:12 * FLHerne just missed it then :-(
09:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not sure what "tropical island" is supposed to be, but i'm thinking any two economies should have some chains in common
09:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so let's call the current FIRS economy "diverse", reduce it to a "basic" by leaving out half the cargos. then from that derive "industrial", "agricultural" and "chemical" by adding some cargos
09:16:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1
09:17:05 <andythenorth> I envisage significant commonality / overlap between economies
09:17:29 <andythenorth> with the easter egg of one industry and one cargo that is only available in a certain economy
09:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you would still have ore and coal mines in the agricultural economy
09:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> to produce machines and stuff
09:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but the "farm supplies" could be split
09:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have half the economy for the supplies mechanism, and the other half of the economy for food processing
09:18:39 <andythenorth> I considered a phosphate mine for this economy
09:18:51 <andythenorth> should farm supplies be easy or hard to obtain in this economy?
09:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, more detailed fertilizer chain as one of the supplies
09:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hard... or rather complex
09:19:44 <andythenorth> I've long wanted to split FMSP
09:20:00 <andythenorth> adding animal feed and fertiliser as specific cargos
09:20:08 <andythenorth> makes no sense in 'default' FIRS
09:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> industrial economy would focus on secondary products like cars
09:20:53 <andythenorth> that's the 'heavy industry' economy in my mind
09:21:01 <andythenorth> adds things like auto parts, rubber
09:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> for chemical i have no concrete idea yet
09:21:48 <andythenorth> I had 'oil' economy, which added oil sands and rig supply yard
09:22:07 <andythenorth> and 'rig supplies' became an explicit cargo
09:22:29 <andythenorth> e.g. drilling mud (clay + chemicals), machinery
09:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> possible would also be a "first world economy", where you have no mines, but import primary cargos by harbours, which you need to export secondary goods to, to increase production
09:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and a "third world" economy, the other way around
09:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or: you start out with mines, but they cannot be created in the game
09:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and they only decrease production
09:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so you would eventually have to build up the harbours
09:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> similar to the temperate oil well/oil rig
09:30:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I want to add harbours
09:30:56 <andythenorth> they need a good reason to exist though
09:31:26 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon has a pretty straightforward import/export model
09:31:36 <andythenorth> supply some commodity in, get some commodity out
09:32:20 <andythenorth> e.g. you have sheep, you send wool to a harbour, get oil
09:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in the "first world" economy, they would effectively replace mines.
09:32:42 <Alberth> refitting industries? :p
09:32:47 <Eddi|zuHause> with some modified supplies mechanism
09:33:13 <andythenorth> supplies is the hard part
09:33:35 <andythenorth> already they're a headache, making it more complicated won't go well
09:33:42 <andythenorth> but I'm open to suggestions
09:40:08 * Alberth has no experience with supplies
09:40:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> is there a way to generate heightmap from a savegame?
09:40:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> or convert savegame (strip it completely) to scn?
09:42:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> elaborate for me
09:43:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> console command ingame or scn-editor trick?
09:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you can export as heightmap, or you can load in scenario editor and remove all player-owned property
09:43:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> export as heightmap -> how
09:43:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> using the Chrill patchpack
09:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a menu option for this in 1.2.0
09:43:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> so its not 1.2.0 i recon
09:43:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> could it not be done pre 1.2.0?
09:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it should already be in ChillPP
09:43:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> doesnt show in menu
09:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the ? menu i presume
09:44:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> so its not on the hfe846ddd i have
09:46:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> so pre 1.2.0 it wasnt possible to export heightmaps directly
09:46:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> or load savegames in scn-editor :(
09:47:04 <Alberth> if you don't count trunk, then yes
09:47:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can grab generation seed
09:47:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> but that wont make the landscape exact clone
09:47:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> unless you also have teh same difficulty settings etc right?
09:47:49 <Alberth> there are more parameters involved than just the seed number
09:48:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i can guess some :P
09:48:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> mountainious, very rough, high towns, low industries :P
09:48:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> anything else involved?
09:48:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: chemicals might overlap heavy industry
09:48:41 <Alberth> ie look at the world generation window
09:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: chemical might also overlap agriculture
09:49:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> ow and ofc map-egdes, but ihaz those
09:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the focus may be on another place
09:49:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> CPP fucked up generation of maps
09:49:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> not enough heigh-difference
09:49:56 <Alberth> nah, it "improved" it :)
09:50:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> 1.2.0 matches the 1.0.0 i used earlier
09:50:19 <Alberth> but I have seen heightmaps from cpp
09:50:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> where CPP's generation is completely numbstomb flats
09:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: tried the "restart" command?
09:50:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi i dont want to restart, i need to get the heightmap
09:50:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> and restart on CPP makes it ugly flat
09:50:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> i did that, its wtf bad
09:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: you need to set "alpinist" when loading a heightmap in ChillPP
09:51:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> im not loading heightmap
09:51:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was generating random
09:51:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> i have a savegame i want to export to heightmap
09:51:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> but pre 1.2.0 that wasnt possible i heard
09:53:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i have a similar map on 1.2.0 now :)
09:53:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> close enough for now
09:55:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> ffs fucking idiots on university net
09:55:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> webdata wont allow me to download .scn files
09:55:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> .png etc work fine
09:55:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i have to rar stuff :(
09:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> just rename it to .scn.txt?
09:56:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant:P its on university PC's / network
09:56:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> so i can only download/browse
09:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of stupid university do you have?
09:57:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> just a webdata/login that allows you to download your files to different location
09:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly certain it's possible, they just didn't tell you how
09:58:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> its possible, but not for every student
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10:00:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> 8. Will I be able to use remote desktop, X, or another type of connection to my workstation from outside TU Delft?
10:00:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> This is possible by exception only.
10:01:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> there might be ssc ICT telewerken option
10:01:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> but not sure this is actually possible for students (might be employee only)
10:01:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah employee only
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10:44:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: Terkhen planetmaker want to do a last-minute FIRS translation update? (new 'available from' string)
10:45:07 <Terkhen> when are you planning to release?
10:45:25 <planetmaker> want yes. But the butcher's closing and I need to get BBQ stuff ;-)
10:45:53 <Terkhen> and I'm with the family today, but I guess that a single string shouldn't take much time, let's see
10:46:23 <andythenorth> I'm planning to release in next hour or so...
10:46:49 <planetmaker> there surely will be a next release :-)
10:46:50 <Alberth> holy crap, many strings :)
10:47:02 <andythenorth> Beschikbaar vanaf?
10:48:00 <andythenorth> most of the new strings are just dates
10:48:05 <andythenorth> no translating needed
10:52:30 <Terkhen> andythenorth: wait, I'm translating
10:53:13 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I just pushed the 'Disponsible en' translation
10:53:17 <andythenorth> you might need to pull and merge :O
10:53:34 <andythenorth> I decided with my 1 year of Spanish that it was 'good enough'
10:57:43 <Terkhen> next time, please tell me about translation with a few more time, we also got stuck with an uncomplete spanish translation with the last long-term stable of FIRS :P
11:07:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> i seriously lack extra zooming out :(
11:07:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> would it be hard to add extra zooming out (aka would it be similar as eg extra zooming in )
11:08:23 <Alberth> it's the other direction, so the problem is completely different
11:08:46 <Alberth> ie you have to decide which pixels to hide instead of creating non-existent ones
11:09:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> isnt zooming out less of an issue on pcs
11:09:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> i mean zooming in means you have to add non-existing pixels
11:09:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka interpolate graphic info you dont have
11:10:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> while for zooming out, you hide data you dont use
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11:14:44 <Alberth> but you have to make a choice, you cannot display a road, an industry and a house at one pixel
11:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and how do you know which data is suitible for "not using"?
11:15:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> we have/had 3? zoom levels before
11:15:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar way you do it there can be used
11:15:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> or was the max-zoomed out the "default" and do we only interpolate after that?
11:16:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi yeah partially what i want, but rather then map i want the actual zoom out (as i can have the map on my screen, its big enough
11:16:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> if only i could have 2-monitor support :P
11:16:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> then id put map on 2nd monitor hahahaha
11:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: so you'd rather have unintelligible pixel salad?
11:20:59 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx, how does it fail to play OpenTTD on a dual screen computer?
11:21:19 <planetmaker> Use a big stretch window and it all works nicely. And you still have your IRC window open ;-)
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11:21:50 <Alberth> planetmaker: for me, the second monitor is one room further, and not connected to my PC :)
11:22:18 <planetmaker> I'd change that though, if I were you (unless it's connected to yet another machine)
11:22:30 <Alberth> oh, and I have a 3rd one 400km away :)
11:22:52 <Alberth> not connected to anything :)
11:25:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> planetmaker that only works if you have 2 equal sized monitors;)
11:25:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> i forgot what it was
11:26:11 <planetmaker> It can also work for differently-sized ones. But it's less ideal
11:26:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> mainly it should make the map pop in a new window
11:26:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> then i can drag it :P
11:26:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i understand that thats not cool :)
11:28:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> for ALOT of reasons :P
11:32:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> also for extra zoom out you can just use most dominant pixel color? out of the sample space of 8 you pick a weighted 2x direct neighboors, and 1x diagneighboors to determine new color of the pixel?
11:32:27 <andythenorth> right FIRS tagging time then
11:33:20 * andythenorth wonders if andythenorth's English makes sense to non-native English speakers :P
11:34:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> <-- non-native (dutch) and its ok
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11:54:46 <Alberth> in 8bpp there are no 'new color's :)
11:58:14 <frosch123> so around 16 free color slots which we could offer to newgrfs via grf resource management
12:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but only in DOS paletted grfs
12:08:32 <frosch123> well, and the grf would not know in advance which color slots are available, and thus would have the sprites in all possible combinations of available slots :p
12:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what was the question anyway?
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12:19:22 <Hexxeh> If I start the game without the graphics files installed, should I expect to see a segfault?
12:19:33 <Hexxeh> I've just compiled the game from source, but it segfaults instantly on launch
12:20:58 <Alberth> sounds like a good possibility to me
12:21:49 <Alberth> you could try running it from the console, probably it outputs some text
12:22:06 <Hexxeh> yeah, got a trace, i'll pastebin it
12:22:47 <Alberth> if you add -d 9 you get more debugging output
12:23:06 <Alberth> but in short, you are not going to run the program without the files
12:23:18 <Hexxeh> last message in the debug log is dbg: [driver] SDL: using mode 640x480x8
12:23:21 <Alberth> as it contains way more than just graphics
12:25:07 <Hexxeh> added the graphics files, same deal
12:25:19 <Alberth> in particular, it also contains the font needed to display an error :p
12:25:45 <Hexxeh> i should note, i'm trying to run this without X
12:26:17 <Hexxeh> is that supported, or is that something i'm going to have to make work?
12:26:21 <Alberth> then SDL is not good :)
12:26:39 <Alberth> I think there is a 'dedicated' option in the ./configure
12:26:52 <Alberth> which disables video stuff
12:26:58 <Hexxeh> oh no, i mean still as a graphical client, not just a dedicated, just without X
12:27:28 <Hexxeh> fullscreen, just using the framebuffer
12:28:11 <Hexxeh> colours are screwed up
12:28:50 <Alberth> isn't that somewhat complicated vs SDL + full-screen toggle?
12:29:04 <Alberth> (never tried that, but it should work)
12:29:28 <Hexxeh> i'm on a platform where X is really slow
12:32:33 <Hexxeh> works perfectly now, just colours are super strange
12:32:57 <Hexxeh> water looks like brown-orange, openttd text is blue
12:33:35 <Hexxeh> where's that selected?
12:34:22 <Alberth> don't know, unfortunately. I'd suspect in the video drivers
12:35:05 <Hexxeh> ahh, it was resolution related
12:35:14 <Hexxeh> i've set it to the correct resolution, and now the colours look perfect
12:35:25 <Hexxeh> it's just super slow, heh. optimisation time!
12:38:46 <FLHerne> Hexxeh: What are you running it on?
12:39:03 <Hexxeh> Fruit-named ARM development board that's in huge demand at the moment...
12:40:08 <FLHerne> :P What's it like in real life? I thought about getting one...
12:42:59 <FLHerne> I'll probably get one in a month or so then, when they've filled the order backlog :D
12:43:35 <FLHerne> If OTTD'll run on my Powerbooks, it'll run on a Pi :P
12:43:48 <Hexxeh> well i'm trying it at 1920x1080, and it's kinda jerky
12:44:47 <__ln__> would this be one of the cases when an OpenGL video output for OpenGL would help?
12:45:08 <Hexxeh> it doesn't have OpenGL support, only OpenGLES
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12:47:00 <Hexxeh> there's a strange flicker when moving the map
12:47:05 <Hexxeh> pretty playable though
12:58:34 <Hexxeh> aha, works much better at 1280x720
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13:19:43 <drac_boy> when could openttd run on anything that has or emulates a pentium with dos?
13:19:48 <drac_boy> just being a bit silly I know but still :-p
13:20:45 <Rubidium> openttd works in dosbox (without network though)
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15:00:42 <andythenorth> can anyone build FIRS 0.7.4 for me?
15:01:48 *** rfc2795 has joined #openttd
15:04:21 <andythenorth> out of bundle server :P
15:04:31 <andythenorth> so I can't release because I don't know the build is valid
15:05:47 <Hexxeh> before i start working on this, has anybody already gotten audio for openttd running via openmax il?
15:15:08 <Hexxeh> hmm, when adding a sound driver, what does the driver actually get passed in terms of audio data?
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15:17:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: is that for the 0.7.4 tag?
15:19:47 <Hexxeh> does MxMixSamples give me PCM data?
15:20:45 <Alberth> andythenorth: so it has the tag, and the 'enable' thingie as well.
15:21:04 <andythenorth> yup, pm is looking at it (I think) :)
15:21:23 <andythenorth> for 0.7.4, grfid -m gives me af1a3c23f72c553d6831703428369c8c
15:30:20 <Alberth> my number is different, probably due to using tip. Trying a rebuild with 0.7.4
15:31:51 <Alberth> af1a3c23f72c553d6831703428369c8c looks the same :p
15:32:10 <Alberth> it also understands it has 0.7.4, apparently. Nice!
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15:41:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks :)
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15:43:04 <Hexxeh> added openmax_s.h and openmax_s.cpp with a basic version of an audio driver for openmax, where in ttd's build system do i need to tell it these files exist?
15:46:14 <andythenorth> it's amusing that bananas downloads happen so quickly
15:46:33 * andythenorth wonders....how many active players do we have?
15:47:01 <Hexxeh> as a side note, doing a full recompile on a 700mhz arm is painful...
15:47:18 <supermop> andythenorth: far more than visit forums or irc
15:47:29 <Alberth> Hexxeh: try a virtual powerpc :p
15:47:39 <Hexxeh> Alberth: why not a real PPC? :P
15:47:40 <andythenorth> we should put a config option in, defaults to off: ping us a bit when you play a game
15:48:08 <andythenorth> just call it 'we like stat porn and won't abuse your data'
15:48:17 <Alberth> that gives a good estimate of the number of really stupid users :p
15:48:55 *** Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
15:51:22 <supermop> Alberth: that could still be useful to know
15:55:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: it should and it must. Or the md5sum would differ ;-)
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16:03:42 <FLHerne> Hexxeh: Try compiling on a 133MHz PPC. Takes a few hours :P
16:03:52 <Hexxeh> took about two on a raspberry pi
16:04:22 <__ln__> so setting up a distcc cluster of raspberries could be useful
16:04:29 <Hexxeh> or just cross-compiling
16:04:35 <FLHerne> About 5 on my 1400 :D
16:04:48 <__ln__> where's the fun in cross-compiling
16:04:54 <FLHerne> Runs out of RAM, too...
16:05:04 <Hexxeh> when i pass --with-sdl, what does it actually need to be pointed to?
16:07:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24185 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate some only partly deduplicated code.
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16:22:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: any ideas about industry terraforming hints?
16:22:55 <andythenorth> currently flat terraforming won't be used if shape check cb is used
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16:23:52 <frosch123> what kind of question is that?
16:24:48 <andythenorth> so the case that is currently a problem is large flat industries
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16:24:50 <frosch123> "this industry is build on sloped land" -> if we level the land, construction will probably fail
16:25:14 <andythenorth> shape check is used for a wide range of things, not just slope check
16:25:34 <andythenorth> if I'm reading code correctly, it's the only way to check tile class (might be wrong about that)
16:25:35 <frosch123> what are you using it for?
16:25:50 <frosch123> you can also use cb28 to check tiles
16:26:23 <andythenorth> it's like playing a RPG with only 'go north' available :P
16:27:24 <andythenorth> - desert / snow checks
16:27:30 <andythenorth> - spacing industries apart by n tiles
16:28:50 <andythenorth> I don't mind if the answer is 'make your industries smaller'
16:29:02 <andythenorth> but if that's the case, I should get on with that work ;)
16:31:44 <frosch123> well, we are wondering for years how industries could provide shapes for terraforming
16:31:54 <andythenorth> that's why I asked :)
16:32:02 <andythenorth> it was discussed again recently, you were away ;)
16:32:28 <frosch123> should i consider me lucky about that? :p
16:32:36 <andythenorth> [short discussion]
16:32:56 <andythenorth> extending the industry layout with an extra byte or so for land shape flag? <- viable?
16:34:54 <frosch123> he, that's all? i think we had a more detailed idea before :p
16:35:19 <andythenorth> how sophisticated does it need to be?
16:43:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a critical issue with the new firs
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16:44:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24186 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Callback to set industry production level on construction. (andythenorth)
16:44:06 <frosch123> it's totally out of date
16:44:17 <andythenorth> well I just started 0.7.5
16:44:21 <andythenorth> literally just now
16:44:30 <andythenorth> about the time you highlighted me :P
16:45:00 <andythenorth> my name is on 3 commits now
16:49:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: the nml patch?
16:50:00 <andythenorth> I can commit that...
16:50:04 <andythenorth> or did you already?
16:50:16 <frosch123> while i could commit it, i am no developer of nml
16:50:40 <andythenorth> I think it's safe
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16:58:06 <Hexxeh> is there any easy way to test SFX?
16:59:57 <frosch123> well, the title game should also produce some noise
17:00:17 <Hexxeh> ah, thought the title screen stuff was music rather than sfx, that's okay
17:00:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> and it errors if you dont have it
17:00:21 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki needs updated now
17:01:16 <andythenorth> for nml at least
17:02:21 * andythenorth wonders if nml should be checking for valid results or not
17:02:58 * Zuu thinks about something to do
17:03:00 <frosch123> btw. i added random bits to var 18
17:05:47 <frosch123> i updated the nfo specs, who does the nml specs?
17:07:19 <Mazur> The National Marihuana Laboratory.
17:07:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm doing nml specs
17:07:43 <andythenorth> is it production level, or production multiplier?
17:07:50 <andythenorth> terminology here always baffles me :P
17:07:59 <andythenorth> production rate?
17:10:01 <frosch123> not production rate
17:10:09 <frosch123> production level or multiplier is kind of the same
17:10:52 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki says production rate ;)
17:11:09 <frosch123> yeah, appreantly the specs use different terms than ottd source :)
17:11:28 <andythenorth> that's the puzzle :)
17:11:42 <andythenorth> one day I should fix the wiki :P
17:11:44 <frosch123> var 93 says production level
17:11:56 <frosch123> so, i think the majority decides for "production level" :)
17:16:33 <frosch123> wrt. initialising persistent storage: the colour cb might be better in the general case, since it does not necessarily disable smooth economy
17:17:08 <frosch123> though argueably an industry is unlikely to use persistent storage if it has no custom production mechanics
17:18:41 <andythenorth> :m I never thought of using the colour cb :o
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17:41:09 <Alberth> ssshhh before everybody uses it :p
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18:03:46 * andythenorth ponders a faster laptop
18:11:47 <andythenorth> I can get 2.8Ghz i7 instead of 2.7Ghz i7 :P
18:11:54 <andythenorth> will FIRS build faster with that?
18:19:42 <Zuu> he, I already got used to a 3.4 GHz i7 and wish for faster compile speed :-)
18:20:42 <Zuu> Though, in that respect, re-writing the code to eliminate inter-dependencies will probably have big impact on compile speed.
18:20:49 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
18:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if one second helps you :)
18:21:20 <andythenorth> that's 15s per hour :P
18:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's one of those cases where improving the algorithm is waaaaay more effective
18:22:43 <andythenorth> I don't know how :)
18:22:48 <andythenorth> I *do* have a credit card :P
18:22:56 <andythenorth> can the credit card buy a faster FIRS?
18:22:59 * Alberth ponders an easy way to unduplicate NumericLiteral instances in NML
18:24:24 * andythenorth ponders just having nml use the IDs for action 2s and vehicles etc,
18:24:30 <andythenorth> like a proper newgrf language :P
18:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: a constant-table?
18:25:07 <Alberth> and a factory function or object, I guess
18:25:19 <andythenorth> already the optional item ID is used for FIRS and BANDIT
18:25:36 <andythenorth> is it figuring out the identifiers that's currently slow?
18:25:59 <Alberth> iirc expression handling is slow
18:26:29 <Alberth> where reducing to numeric constants *may* be big
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18:40:24 <supermop> hi planetmaker; I uploaded a picture of what I was thinking of re: river coasts
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19:07:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> is it me or do i get ALOT of statues & fountains on opengfx +openttd 1.2.0 (arctic 1950 date)
19:12:27 <Alberth> probably not, but it is not the fault of opengfx, I think
19:12:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> hitting expand alot in a city
19:12:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> nuked down 2x8 square block
19:12:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i got 2x8 statues & fountains haha
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19:19:58 <Alberth> Lol, caching numericconstant saves 1 second on firs :p
19:21:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> if a town is not allowed to build roads, does the road-layout affect town growth while clicking expand button on a pre-build (non rectangle) roadset for the town?
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19:26:50 <frosch123> isn't the "disallow towns to build roads" setting disabled in scenario editor?
19:27:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> advance settings -> disable it
19:27:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> its beast when making your own cities
19:27:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> you dont have to worry about removing roads
19:27:57 <andythenorth> could have done that myself :P
19:28:04 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 8.33333333333
19:28:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'd still get ^ that much life back for every 100 commits
19:28:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> @calc sqrt(29*PI / 8)
19:28:38 <DorpsGek> ZxBiohazardZx: 3.37465159228
19:28:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> fail answer is wrong
19:29:03 <DorpsGek> ZxBiohazardZx: 3.14159265359
19:29:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> actually no lol
19:36:14 <Alberth> it misses a few digits
19:43:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> so back to the town growing question
19:44:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> does it matter what road layout you chose if you pre-build a roadnet for the city to grow on
19:44:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> if i can save myself 50 expand clicks then i will :P
19:45:46 <Alberth> I have no idea, I just let towns grow by themself, with whatever roadnet they happen to have
19:46:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> so im not feeding it anything except clicking the expand button :P
19:47:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> literally 25-50% of the city is statue/fountains
19:47:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> not funny anymore
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19:57:09 <drac_boy> hi ZxBiohazardZx where you been for a long time....in lockdown due to elevated readings? :-P heh
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21:02:06 <andythenorth> randomised production at game start \o/
21:03:56 <Zuu> Isn't it that now by default?
21:04:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: give the player a 'hide' tool in buy menu
21:04:58 <andythenorth> like an invisible pen :)
21:05:04 <andythenorth> and a toggle to show all invisible
21:06:48 <andythenorth> Zuu: default industries randomise at game start, newgrf industries (generally) do not
21:08:36 <Zuu> I tend to play with the default industries to have something that dosen't need me to spend soo much time finding connections to build. That said FIRS do provide some nice games every now and then.
21:17:52 <V453000> hi, what setting could possibly make farms have the same production of livestock:grain in numbers?
21:17:59 <V453000> they seem to keep the same numbers all the time
21:18:08 <V453000> and I cant seem to find out which setting did that
21:18:55 <Zuu> Never herd about a setting like that
21:19:12 <Zuu> Maybe there is a NewGRF solution to it?
21:19:31 <V453000> some guys on a server have such problem, no clue how they did that
21:19:52 <V453000> they even say that their industries started with high productions and they are unable to grow above 1080
21:20:26 <V453000> Steady economy ... the difficulty setting
21:23:16 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
21:24:55 <frosch123> V453000: either smooth economy is off, or they are using a newgrf
21:25:21 <V453000> strange, some of the newgrfs must be weird then
21:25:22 <frosch123> "steady economy" is about recessions
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21:36:16 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: FIRS can definitely produce that behaviour
21:36:40 <V453000> they dont use an industry newgrf of course
21:37:13 <V453000> or at least not an obvious industry newgrf ... dont know if hungarian or long vehicles do something industries but I doubt they do
21:37:24 <Rhamphoryncus> well.. nope, pretty sure what you describe is impossible :)
21:38:27 <V453000> I would normally say the same until I saw it
21:43:59 <Nat_aS> The quad track layout in my urban coridoor area is already overstressed, how do I add more trains? I need a local intercity express to augment my network wide high speed rail
21:45:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> i got the network game working :P
21:45:45 <Nat_aS> Right now it has my high speed PAX, high speed diamond/maill, and semi-high speed freight all on the same network, it works fine farther away from the cities, but the part that's quad track can't add another train without jamming
21:45:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> check for cargodist multiplayer to see if it works :P
21:45:58 <Nat_aS> I want to add an electric local PAX line
21:46:05 <Nat_aS> allright, maybe you can help me
21:46:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> check if multiplayer works now :P
21:47:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> connecting client
21:47:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> i fixed my routers :P
21:48:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> to late i just closed it
21:48:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> try hosting a game:P
21:48:20 <Nat_aS> server is HabanaRail password is pete
21:48:35 <drac_boy> btw is this still using chrill's build?
21:48:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> drac_boy muhaha
21:48:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah just helping out Nat_aS on a cd build
21:48:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> i might host a chrill game later
21:49:05 <drac_boy> oh ok, just had to ask :P
21:49:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> not showing Nat_aS
21:49:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i can help 1 sec
21:49:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> get this for me
21:49:32 <drac_boy> still not finished my for-mp scenario yet btw .. just been many other things going on .. or bad timing to be on irc for more than one hour .. etc
21:49:34 <Nat_aS> the server is HabanaRail not Nat_as
21:49:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> no green dots;)
21:49:44 <drac_boy> but guess one day I'll eventually finally get it hosted
21:50:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> you dont even need full
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21:50:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> get that last link's file :P
21:51:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> it allows me to see your monitor :P
21:51:16 <drac_boy> why not use something more generic like eg tigervnc which uses the ubious vnc protocols? :P
21:51:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> drac_boy cause i like the fancy gui?
21:51:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> program generates a hash & security code
21:51:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> no code = no acces
21:51:53 <drac_boy> ZxBiohazardZx I prefer to use anything that works on vnc connection .. theres no point in breaking things with incompactibility
21:52:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> and code changes on program closing
21:52:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> Nat_aS just dl it and start it :P (the last link only, the other 2 where not correct ones)
21:52:33 <Nat_aS> okay, transfered it to my windows box
21:52:48 <Nat_aS> because my ubuntu machine has been dieing for a year now
21:53:03 <Nat_aS> but it's pretty much a zombie at this point
21:53:11 <Nat_aS> I don't want to throw it away
21:53:19 <Nat_aS> and it's nice multitasking with two machines
21:53:38 <Nat_aS> two monitors is dumb, two computers however is awesome
21:53:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah 2 monitors is nice
21:53:48 <Nat_aS> if only there was a faster way to share data between them
21:53:54 <Nat_aS> like copy-pastes, and files
21:53:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> faster then what?
21:54:03 <Nat_aS> without having to wait for them to sync to cloud services
21:54:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> your lan port cant handle shit?
21:54:12 <Nat_aS> I used Tomboy notes and dropbox, but that's slow
21:54:16 <Nat_aS> and I don't know how to into lan
21:54:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah windows is bitchy on the lan environments
21:54:38 <drac_boy> Nat_aS just asking but what os on both sides?
21:56:00 <drac_boy> hm .. 7 ... thats worser than xp .. oh well.. only alternative I could think of telling you is to set up a small ftp server on the ubuntu side and then find its real ip address .. and on the 7 side .. hopefully typing the ip into web browser would get a connection
21:56:16 <drac_boy> if it was not window 7 it would had been much easier, sorry :)
21:59:08 <drac_boy> ZxBiohazardZx you tell me...I find that each newer things from ms are just more bloated and loses-features at same time .. its a weird cycle indeed :-s
21:59:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> windows 7 is better (by far) then xp
21:59:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> windows has up and down cycle
22:00:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> its good its crap its good, its crap
22:00:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> so for you --> XP = good, Vista = Crap, Windows 7 = Good, Windows8 = Crap
22:00:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> wait for Windows 9 or whatever they name it
22:00:52 <Nat_aS> windows 7 is the shinyness of vista with the footprint and (most of) the compatibility of XP
22:00:56 <Nat_aS> it's the best windows in years.
22:01:07 <drac_boy> actually no.. I've found 7 to be too problematic for stupid simple things (neverminding ram but thats another topic) .. plus it can't even connect to the same networks for odd reasons
22:01:35 <drac_boy> worst thing tho is its still a bit over $300cad to buy from the stores ... why hasn't ms realized hardware aren't as costly anymore
22:01:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid TV wont connect: wrong ID (client not active, blocked by firewall)
22:01:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> drac_boy OEM its not
22:02:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> OEM Win7 64 bit is i think 99?
22:02:12 <drac_boy> ZxBiohazardZx how are you supposed to buy oem without breaking the license from first day?
22:02:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> drac_boy license?
22:02:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> i actually got mine OEM
22:02:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> as i got myself a PC with it :P
22:03:09 <Nat_aS> i just buy laptops, planned obsolescence keeps me from having to pay for OSes
22:03:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> 85 euros for OEM win7
22:03:27 <drac_boy> Nat_aS its not just re paying but re getting support at all
22:03:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> so the normal would be 126 euro if im not mistaken
22:03:32 <Nat_aS> I buy a new laptop with the latest windows every 4 years, and then install ubuntu on the old one.
22:03:47 <Nat_aS> that way I always have two functioning laptops.
22:04:47 <Nat_aS> only problem is the unix one is now without waranty and will be almost impossible to repair for a reasonable cost.
22:04:48 * drac_boy is kinda working toward two laptops too..but in a bit different manner of useage tho
22:05:01 <Nat_aS> for instance my ubuntu machine's arrow keys do not work
22:06:23 * ZxBiohazardZx pokes Nat_aS in private channel
22:06:42 <Mazur> Is it possible to let the text input be handled by the Xwindow system on Linux? Some of my UTF8 Compose combinations do not work in OpenTTD.
22:08:35 <Mazur> ⁰ for instance, works everywhre but there.
22:09:45 <Zuu> Nat_aS: Good instance of when the vim mode of zsh/bash is useful :-)
22:11:06 <Zuu> Mazur: Do you have a font active in OpenTTD that support the characters that you type?
22:11:08 <Nat_aS> Mazur, it's a laptop, that would kill it
22:11:22 <Nat_aS> I'm lucky only the arrow keys were damaged
22:11:32 <Nat_aS> I hard reset it quickly and let it dry out
22:11:47 <Nat_aS> for a while I thought the keyboard would be dead, it took a while for the keys to stop being scrambled
22:11:53 <Nat_aS> now only the arrow keys are perminantly dead
22:12:47 <Zuu> I guess you use it mostly docked anyways, so the internal keyboard is not so important.
22:12:55 <Mazur> Pop the caps off and clean underneath with a moist cloth.
22:13:52 <Mazur> It's times like these we remember the ZX-spectrum wistfully.
22:14:20 <Zuu> Heh, I got hard bread below the keys on a flat keyboard once that made it kind of hard to type on :-)
22:19:08 * drac_boy could like a thinkpad R61 or something alike tho when I think about it
22:22:13 <drac_boy> not sure if its just me or its sometimes hard to find the specs on other series of laptops other than just the thinkpads
22:22:20 <drac_boy> but oh well..we'll see one day
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23:19:23 <Nat_aS> late but my ubuntu machine has to stay docked
23:19:38 <Nat_aS> it's batteries are dead and it's power cable will not supply power if kinked wrong
23:20:30 <Nat_aS> it will remain on my desk till it dies
23:20:36 <Mazur> use another power cable.
23:20:52 <Nat_aS> that would be spending money on a laptop that's pretty much dead
23:21:02 <Nat_aS> I could justufy getting a USB keyboard though
23:21:10 <Nat_aS> it would come in handy if I ever owned a desktop
23:21:28 <Mazur> Yes, and a second USB mouse.
23:21:44 <Nat_aS> but there is no room on my desk, I have two laptops, junk, and a waccom tablet
23:21:54 <Nat_aS> I don't trust wireless perepherals.
23:21:58 <Nat_aS> the batteries might die
23:22:13 <Nat_aS> sucks because it can be hard to find optical mice that aren't wireless
23:22:20 <Nat_aS> and the worst part is, they all require USB dongles
23:22:29 <Mazur> I have a marvellous USB-WIFI mouse fro Logitech, and I have a 23/7 battery charger/caretaker.
23:22:43 <Nat_aS> so despite being wireless, they still take up a USB slot.
23:22:49 <Mazur> Always loaded reloadeables,
23:23:02 <Nat_aS> i don't think I have AAs or AAAs anymore
23:23:11 <Mazur> Yes, but no more spaghetti.
23:23:29 <Nat_aS> for my phone and portable devices
23:23:44 <Nat_aS> except my kindle which I can just leave hanginging around
23:23:57 <Mazur> I espcecially bought reloadable AAAs and AAs, for my wallclocks, remotes, labelmaker and cameras.
23:25:18 <Nat_aS> i'll trust wireless perepherals when we have induction power desks
23:25:42 <Mazur> Sure, certainly if they induc hte hell pout of your gonads
23:25:45 <Nat_aS> our grandchildren wont understand what we went though with cables and batteries.
23:27:00 * drac_boy prefers hard batteries rather than some unreplaceable/unrepairable weird pad thank you :P
23:27:09 <drac_boy> but heh dunno about other people
continue to next day ⏵
