IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-27
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00:39:32 <Skau1> why do i only get like .. 1/10 of what i usually recived for oil now?
00:44:29 <Baroks> ican't use the 32bpp grafic in 1.2
00:44:55 <V453000> use different resolution of openttd
00:47:08 <Baroks> y have the baseset.tar in 32bpp but its not work
00:47:33 <V453000> oh, no clue about the base set, thought you mean the trains
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01:50:45 <Nat_aS> what can cause a station to have a bad rating?
01:51:14 <Nat_aS> more accurately, what can cause a station with an excellent mail rating to have a bad passenger rating?
01:51:36 <Nat_aS> this station receves several PAX trains and three airplanes every day
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03:13:32 <Nat_aS> well I figured out how to make Diamonds profitable.
03:13:36 <Nat_aS> put them on mail trains
03:13:46 <Nat_aS> high speed mail trains
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08:10:03 * NGC3982 so wants to play openttd right now.
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08:25:40 <MNIM> NGC3982: then why don't you do so?
08:26:50 <NGC3982> i have about thirty people who needs to be taken care of.
08:27:04 * NGC3982 administrates a customer service.
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09:42:06 <drac_boy> hi dihedral how're you?
09:51:49 * drac_boy wonders if you're sick? :P
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10:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, you're beyond hope...
10:01:47 <vichu> y dont may cities allow mw to build?
10:01:58 <vichu> it always says city local authority refuses to allo
10:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> because you destroyed too many trees
10:02:06 <drac_boy> vichu stop axing/blowing up so much trees perhaps ;)
10:02:10 <drac_boy> heh eddi lucky guess :)
10:03:02 <Arafangion> Plant a million trees.
10:03:13 <Alberth> if you have stations in the town, provide good service
10:03:23 <Alberth> Arafangion: we should fix that bug :p
10:03:31 <vichu> anywhere in the map? i do provide good service
10:03:54 <vichu> if i plant a lot they ll allow me right?
10:04:09 <drac_boy> vichu better, next time plan ahead :p
10:04:15 <Arafangion> Alberth: Heh, seriously, though, it's expensive to pull it off!
10:05:07 <Alberth> Arafangion: I usually just go to some other part of the map, and come back later
10:05:33 <Alberth> except 'later' can be a lot later :)
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10:11:15 <Arafangion> Alberth: Time heals all wounds. :)
10:21:25 <Alberth> besides, if they don't want my services, I make my money elswhere :p
10:21:36 <Arafangion> It's a different matter on very small maps.
10:21:58 <Arafangion> Which is about all I can handle on this computer, but soon... Soon I'll have a beast of a computer.
10:22:04 <Alberth> I imaginve it can be highly annoying then, indeed
10:22:38 <Alberth> multiple CPUs is not going to make any difference :p
10:22:55 <Alberth> (well, hardly any difference, technically)
10:22:56 <Arafangion> Alberth: Indeed not, I'm already dual-cpu.
10:23:21 <CornishPasty> Oh my goodness, how do you manage to have 2 CPUs Arafangion?
10:23:23 <Arafangion> Alberth: But going up from 1GHz Atom D525 to something like a 3.6 GHz quad-core 3820... Now, THAT will make a difference. :)
10:23:54 <Alberth> what is small? I usually play 256x1024 or 512x512 or so
10:24:04 <Arafangion> CornishPasty: That. :) But I can watch movies, and run x86 applications, and run a 24" screen all on ~50 watts.
10:24:25 <CornishPasty> Arafangion: My 8150 runs at 28W TDP :P
10:24:40 <Arafangion> CornishPasty: I measured that at the *wall*.
10:24:57 <CornishPasty> Ah, my MBP runs 8 logical, 4 physical cores at 95W
10:25:00 <Alberth> it's good to keep a safe distance :p
10:25:13 <Arafangion> Alberth: Small is... 64x64. :)
10:25:35 <Arafangion> Alberth: Actually gets quite difficult! Because when you have such a tiny map, you very quickly connect all and every cargo.
10:25:55 <Arafangion> Alberth: So those industries eventually produce more and more cargo, which you still have to somehow deliver.
10:26:05 <Alberth> I once did FIRS at 64x64 with RVs, it was quite fun
10:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> every time i tried such small maps, i gave up rather quickly, because there is "nothing to do"
10:26:36 <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: Just wait a bit, it gets Hard.
10:27:09 <CornishPasty> Ugh, that title is so tautologous it hurts, Alberth
10:27:29 <Alberth> which is very much not designed for a small map, so it gets swamped with industries, all different :)
10:27:43 <CornishPasty> Yes, like LAME and PHP
10:28:23 <Arafangion> But not like Hurd.
10:29:27 <Arafangion> (Hird of Unix Replacing Daemons)...(Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth)
10:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the smallest map i played for a longer time: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png
10:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe that is 128x256 or so
10:30:12 <Arafangion> But when I get my massive machine, I intend to try the biggest map I can get my hands on.
10:30:24 <Arafangion> And try to somehow link every industry on it, for good measure.
10:30:35 <Arafangion> I'd have to finally figure out the traffic signals, too.
10:30:44 <Arafangion> (I barely use them on small maps)
10:30:49 <CornishPasty> traffic signals?
10:31:21 <Alberth> yes, at the rail tracks :p
10:32:05 <Alberth> Arafangion: I don't understand why people play anything bigger than 1024x1024, you just get more unused space, I think
10:32:38 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: looks nice, I cannot take the patience to get that far in the game :)
10:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's also the furthest i ever got in openttd :p
10:35:06 * drac_boy usually sticks to 256x256 to 512x512 and inbetween most of the times :)
10:35:20 <drac_boy> and never have anything to not do even 80 years later :)
10:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to neglect cargo transports, because passengers are trumping everything
10:37:39 <Arafangion> Alberth: Greater profits due to greater distances?
10:38:31 <Arafangion> What annoys me, is how utterly uncompetitive trucks and buses can be.
10:38:52 <Arafangion> As in, I frequently struggle to even make them break even.
10:38:53 <Alberth> drac_boy: try 128x1024 one time :)
10:39:22 <drac_boy> Alberth I kept meaning to play a customized map with flherne and perhaps others....I had been thinking of a skinny long map funny enough
10:39:38 <drac_boy> maybe one day I'll finally host the game but we'll just have to see
10:39:57 <Alberth> hmm, 64x2048, did anyone try that?
10:40:30 <Arafangion> I'd love to host some games, but my internet is shit here. :(
10:40:50 <Arafangion> I should've used capital letters there, but you get the point. :)
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10:53:08 <planetmaker> Alberth: 64x2048 is great fun :-)
10:54:03 <planetmaker> though I might have used 128 instead of 64... (checking PS archive)
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11:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the landscape feature functions don't work well with such extreme aspect ratios
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11:28:10 <Alberth> x14 looks like a hexadecimal number to me
11:34:35 <planetmaker> especially your CPU won't get bored...
11:34:56 <planetmaker> For me those maps become unplayable / too cpu intensive way before I get bored. thus I avoid them
11:34:57 <Alberth> and you run into limits sooner
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11:38:17 <planetmaker> Hazzard: RUNNING_COST_NONE indeed exists. Seems to be a base cost of 1. Thus no modification
11:38:19 <V453000> for me these maps get unplayable shortly after i start - just cant orientate in such stupidly large map I know I will never fill anyway
11:39:09 <planetmaker> yeah... small(er) maps make for a game one can actually finish :-)
11:39:17 <vichu> wat will happen if my cpu usage increases?
11:39:19 <planetmaker> And there's always a lot of tweaking one can do anyways
11:39:27 <planetmaker> it will eventually lag, vichu
11:39:28 <drac_boy> planetmaker I sometimes get to 2030+ without ever finishing at all some days :p
11:39:34 <planetmaker> and thus be a very bad game experience
11:39:55 <planetmaker> as your cpu simply can't do all the calculations in time which it would need to do
11:40:02 <planetmaker> yes, when you start, it is.
11:40:22 <planetmaker> But it will become more and more cpu heavy the more you advance in building the map, the more vehicles you have, the more industries, the more houses, ...
11:40:24 <Hazzard> Doesn't the game just get reaallly sloww?
11:40:30 <Hazzard> and time slows dowwwnnn?
11:40:41 <planetmaker> Hazzard: yes. But ... the responsiveness to your keyboard and mouse as well
11:41:02 <planetmaker> and vehicles will seem to jump instead of move etc.
11:41:49 <Hazzard> I have too much experience with that
11:42:25 <vichu> can u guys get a patch for no limits?
11:42:46 <V453000> like more than 5000 vehicles? :D
11:42:51 <planetmaker> they're NOT 2048x2048. But they're built-up games
11:43:22 <planetmaker> and then ask again about limits
11:43:38 <planetmaker> (I can't reasonably play those)
11:44:10 <V453000> 201 was really only for the last few
11:44:21 <V453000> my laptop was unable too, and it doesnt struggle in most games
11:44:23 <planetmaker> and those maps are only 512**2, thus they're 1/16 of 2048**2
11:44:59 <vichu> so thats y i asked for no limit patch
11:45:24 <vichu> u can run trains anywhere in the map in 2048*2048
11:45:33 <vichu> everywhere industries :D
11:45:39 <V453000> but why would you build more than 5000 trains
11:45:43 <V453000> you have some NASA PC or what?
11:45:52 <planetmaker> vichu: and ... please... give us the curtosy of writing proper English
11:46:48 <vichu> 5000 is the limit? and planetmaker
11:47:19 <Alberth> 'u' and 'y' are not proper english words
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11:48:29 <planetmaker> I'll pretend to not understand sentences otherwise :-)
11:49:02 * Alberth tends to read 'y' was 'yes', which makes no sense
11:49:30 <vichu> so which is the best map?
11:49:38 <planetmaker> the one which you have fun with
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11:50:00 <planetmaker> greatly depends on playing style
11:50:04 <vichu> no the best which will suit the cpu
11:50:11 <Alberth> I must have missed the best maps then :p
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11:50:38 <planetmaker> my playing style is best suited with maps smaller equal 0.25 Mega-tiles
11:50:56 <planetmaker> thus 512**2 and equivalents
11:51:09 <Alberth> vichu: anything bigger than 512x512 is useless for a single player
11:51:35 <planetmaker> Alberth: also for multiplayer... the limits really aren't different
11:51:59 <V453000> 256*256-512*512 is all great in all shapes
11:52:06 <planetmaker> as the hardware requirements are the limiting factor. Actually more so in multiplayer than in single player
11:52:10 <Alberth> planetmaker: unless you play at a LAN perhaps
11:52:52 <planetmaker> maybe... dunno :-)
11:53:40 <planetmaker> or 128 x 2048 ;-)
11:55:21 <planetmaker> vichu: but it really depends much on your playing style and also on your hardware
11:55:35 <planetmaker> so... that's why I suggested to test out those heavy-cpu games I linked
11:55:47 <drac_boy> hmm just had to wonder, what ways are there to cut down hardware load on an ottd map?
11:56:36 <drac_boy> all I know of is more for the patch..using the lowmemory=on option and only having a 2x multiplier for maxvehicles (I rarely get anywhere close to that, I do go over the original limit at times tho hence 2x in that case)
11:59:20 <vichu> and 5000 limit will be good too
11:59:27 <vichu> so time to play the game :D
12:00:12 <vichu> thank you alberth and planetmaker ;)
12:02:28 <Alberth> drac_boy: drop MP would help, as you can do mulit-core then :p
12:02:41 <drac_boy> alberth aside to that
12:08:43 <drac_boy> guess there isn't much to do then?
12:09:58 <Alberth> nobody has useful ideas how to make progress there :(
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12:10:33 <drac_boy> heh ok, at least if I recall right someone in a game once mentioned that less or no trees cuts down ram useage noticeably
12:10:37 <drac_boy> is that actually true?
12:11:21 <Alberth> ram usage is not the main problem imho
12:12:15 <drac_boy> alberth...what is? :P
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12:12:41 <Alberth> which is mostly due to train path finding
12:13:04 <Alberth> and a bit of newgrf callbacks iirc
12:13:11 <Arafangion> Which is why I'm really looking forward to my new monster. :)
12:13:18 <Arafangion> 3.6 GHz of awesomeness.
12:13:28 <drac_boy> alberth surely aren't train pathfinder quite 'low resource'? or do the patch and ottd differ?
12:13:45 <drac_boy> because I don't see much hit on the cpu even with many pbs-enabled trains here re patch with busy map
12:14:34 <Alberth> don't know what the patch does
12:14:34 <Arafangion> drac_boy: You'll note that I brought this up the last time we were talking, too. :) Rather obsessing about it, but then again, I _am_ currently on a D525.
12:15:08 <Alberth> if it is like the original program, the OpenTTD PF is much better
12:16:04 <drac_boy> Alberth if ottd is better then that means 500 trains on shared routes would barely need more than a 200mhz slice. just guessing roughly tho
12:17:16 <Alberth> much better pathfinding results I mean, not much better CPU use :)
12:18:10 <Alberth> there is a git mirror
12:18:24 <Arafangion> Mirrors are sucky.
12:19:40 * Arafangion picks the mirror, as a result. :)
12:19:56 <drac_boy> alberth...I've not noticed anything better except that ottd ships don't always like far-apart buoy by comparasion on other hand
12:20:04 <drac_boy> but then what do I really know tho
12:20:05 <planetmaker> Arafangion, in my experience working with the git or hg repo for dev is easier than the svn one
12:20:18 <Arafangion> planetmaker: Yep, does'nt mean it's not sucky.
12:20:33 <Arafangion> planetmaker: But then again, it's not like I have push access, so it's probably irrelevant.
12:21:19 <Alberth> drac_boy: ships are much more costly in CPU time than trains; too many paths to chose from
12:21:22 <planetmaker> really, that doesn't quite matter... it might save a step. But it's an extra step to check for sanity. Thus it's not time lost IMHO
12:21:51 <planetmaker> you contacted me regarding OpenGFX
12:22:56 <Arafangion> Alberth: But the ship pathing can be much more naive, surely?
12:23:09 <curtana> Yeah, rather than getting in over my head to start with just working on some sprites at the moment with a mate who does some dev work for OTTD
12:24:24 <Alberth> Arafangion: it already is; there is no collision concept at all
12:24:25 <planetmaker> so what's your ideas / suggestions / contributions? :-) They sure are welcome
12:25:10 <Arafangion> Alberth: Not to mention, wouldn't the fitness function be very simplistic, as well?
12:25:23 <Arafangion> Alberth: Quite possibly a simple distance function?
12:26:08 <Alberth> I think it is, but the problem is the number of paths that exist, at every tile you have about 3 directions to continue, and they are all equal
12:26:31 <Alberth> so you get an explosion in number of paths to pick the optimal one from
12:27:04 <Alberth> which is really just a big waste, as they are all equal ;p
12:27:13 <Alberth> but how to detect that is the problem
12:27:17 <Arafangion> Alberth: You don't have to pick a /path/, really, just the next square.
12:27:24 <curtana> I've got experience doing sprites and was going to look at jumping into learning NML and trying some bugfixes. Thinkin I'll start with fixing some trams prites for my friend first though.
12:27:27 <planetmaker> Arafangion, you sure do...
12:27:34 <Arafangion> planetmaker: For ships?
12:27:44 <planetmaker> Arafangion, sure. Or you go the wrong direction
12:27:50 <planetmaker> you can't cross land tiles
12:27:55 <planetmaker> and want to do better than random walk
12:28:05 <Arafangion> planetmaker: Well, you have to disregard the neighbouring land tiles.
12:28:21 <planetmaker> there you go. That's path finding already
12:28:23 <Arafangion> And then just pick the remaining neighbouring tile that has the cheapest result as determined by the fitness function.
12:29:07 <Hazzard> Isn't that just like following the right wall of a maze till you reach the end?
12:29:10 <planetmaker> curtana, OpenGFX itself has no trams. Base sets cannot have them. OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles has trams
12:29:20 <planetmaker> but what do you understand under "fix"?
12:29:42 <Arafangion> Hazzard: Possibly.
12:30:00 <Alberth> Arafangion: I'd suggest you do some experiments in a very simple setup to see what that approach does
12:30:22 <planetmaker> Hazzard, Arafangion that's about the worst choice after random walk to reach a destination
12:30:52 <Arafangion> Well, I've barely used ships... But don't they require a fairly liberal use of bouys?
12:31:13 <planetmaker> curtana, but that said: surely OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles *can* use more trams than it already has. The three trams as present barely cover the needs
12:31:22 <Alberth> Arafangion: bouys are just a measure to reduce computation costs
12:32:06 <planetmaker> also... YAPF does a not too bad job in OpenTTD 1.2.0 with its caching...
12:32:15 <Arafangion> Sounds like I'd have to find time to do some pathfinding experiments.
12:32:33 <curtana> planetmaker, not sure whether they are OpenTTD or TTDPatch he's just sent them through for me to work on. Still happy to help out with OpenGFX, just have no idea where to start :)
12:33:09 <planetmaker> curtana, that's a good question. What do you like to improve? :-)
12:33:28 <planetmaker> My personal wishlist includes houses which are not that noisy
12:33:36 <Hazzard> This colormap grf stuff is awesome
12:34:59 <planetmaker> The wishlist also includes toyland-specific sprites for the infrastructure (stations, RV stops, airports)
12:35:38 <curtana> I can have a look at the houses.
12:36:00 <planetmaker> how do you create sprites, curtana ?
12:36:08 <planetmaker> Do you draw 8bpp? Or render 32bpp?
12:37:33 <curtana> draw 8bpp is what I've done to date
12:38:12 <drac_boy> 8bpp for both small and large screens to me
12:38:18 <curtana> Have some experience with 3DSMAX a long time ago :) but not specifically rendering down to 32bpp
12:44:06 <planetmaker> ok, I'm just curious. It's your choice and 8bpp and 32bpp can be of different origin anyway :-)
12:45:38 <Arafangion> Hmm, the source code looks pretty good, at first impression.
12:48:45 <curtana> old fashioned pixelart. I did some work on the Japan Train set which is somewhere on TT-forums.
12:49:12 * drac_boy just prefers 8bpp for a few reasons but thats to our own tho
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12:49:51 <planetmaker> ah, yes, I know it. I love it :-)
12:49:58 <planetmaker> And... it actually is also on the DevZone :-)
12:50:26 <curtana> What's on teh DevZone?
12:50:49 <planetmaker> It's the home of nearly all open-source 3rd party stuff for OpenTTD
12:51:04 <planetmaker> where you find their source codes, their bug trackers
12:51:15 <curtana> I was having a look around on there today and tried playing around with mercurial but go t abit lost :P
12:51:18 <planetmaker> or rather maybe issue trackers to put it more neutrally
12:51:34 <planetmaker> :-) All you need for a start is
12:51:58 <Arafangion> Man, the ship controller's heavily nested.
12:52:32 <planetmaker> many projects rely on the a unix-like environment to build properly
12:53:46 <Hazzard> Why are there so many more reds then CC greens/blues?
12:55:37 <Alberth> hsitoric reasons probably
12:57:17 <Hazzard> I originally drew my sprites in red
12:57:24 <Hazzard> luckily I only used 8 shades
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13:00:34 <Hazzard> They looks so weird green :P
13:01:11 <drac_boy> be back later anyhow :p
13:02:59 <Hazzard> planetmaker: How can I make vehicle animations?
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13:36:23 <Hazzard> V453000: Can you help me with something?
13:36:41 <Hazzard> What should go in sprite_id: ?
13:37:07 <V453000> sprite_id SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN yes Set this property to enable new graphics
13:37:21 <V453000> sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN;
13:37:28 <V453000> this means that you use new sprites I guess
13:37:31 <V453000> not some from base set
13:39:31 <planetmaker> you can animate vehicles by making use of the variable motion_counter
13:40:37 <Hazzard> I think i'll figure that out later
13:40:50 <planetmaker> you definitely should get a working vehicle first
13:41:17 <Hazzard> I am about 5 minutes from that I think :D
13:42:51 <Hazzard> Do either of you use gimp?
13:43:30 <planetmaker> try again asking your real question ;-)
13:44:18 <planetmaker> or will it help you in any way, if you know that *someone* uses gimp?
13:45:30 <planetmaker> it's really worth the read. And I don't mean it offensive :-)
13:45:43 <planetmaker> It makes communication quite efficient to heed it, though
13:45:52 <Hazzard> That is a lot of text
13:46:20 <planetmaker> yes, it's a bit. But I actually enjoyed reading it
13:46:39 <V453000> offsets are something you will hate and love
13:47:08 <V453000> the offsets say how is the sprite positioned
13:47:11 <planetmaker> offsets are alignment info
13:47:44 <planetmaker> with respect to sprite's (0,0)
13:47:58 <Hazzard> I am getting a "read beyond the image bounds of the image file" Could that have anything to do with the offsets?
13:49:04 <Alberth> no, more with giving incorrect postions where the sprite is in the image
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14:00:09 <Hazzard> Does there happen to be some magical colors that are already animated?
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14:01:25 <planetmaker> Hazzard, please DO READ the wiki
14:01:29 <planetmaker> it's all explained there
14:01:40 <planetmaker> it even has a search bar
14:02:52 <CornishPasty> planetmaker: lies!
14:03:28 <Hazzard> The wiki explains it all very well
14:03:34 <Hazzard> But it takes me about 10 minutes longer
14:03:44 <CornishPasty> Hazzard: SO TAKE 10 MINUTES LONGER
14:03:45 <Hazzard> And it is easy being lazy
14:05:52 <planetmaker> Thanks for being that honest. Though I'll henceforth be lazy then, too. In answering questions as you obviously think that your time is more valuable than mine and it is blatantly obvious that you really don't care to do your homework
14:06:45 <planetmaker> your realize that that attitude you showed is quite dis-respectful, yes?
14:08:26 <Hazzard> I was wondering why the guy was naming those colors strangly :/
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14:19:14 <andythenorth> the town limit text is imho not improved, but the bales definitely is
14:19:19 <andythenorth> I'll change it now
14:21:47 * Alberth changes the dutch translation of the town limit too
14:22:00 <andythenorth> I'm about to push
14:27:30 <Alberth> and I don't even play with FIRS at the moment :p
14:27:59 <andythenorth> do you play the game at all? :)
14:28:56 <Mazur> No, the game plays with him.
14:29:42 <planetmaker> who doesn't play 'the game'? ;-)
14:29:44 <Mazur> Plugged him in with Bluetooth and uses him for a pathfinder.
14:29:54 <CornishPasty> planetmaker: you just lost the game
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14:30:51 <Alberth> Mazur: I am a very bad path finder, cannot keep left from right :)
14:37:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: any ideas about industry terraform hints?
14:37:19 <planetmaker> Alberth, I just learnt a navi system which doesn't either ;-)
14:38:10 <planetmaker> can be quite confusing ;-) Luckily the display style was very good
14:38:48 <planetmaker> and timing of announcements and their quality also
14:39:16 <Alberth> andythenorth: frosch had some ideas with relative requirements on slopes, but I don't know the details
14:39:58 * andythenorth wonders what other patches are needed for FIRS / newgrf industry
14:40:14 <Alberth> andy was also missing here for some time ;)
14:40:21 <andythenorth> now is a good time to think about 1.3
14:40:43 <Alberth> planetmaker: so you wait until it makes a sound, ignore what it says, and look at the display? :)
14:41:08 <planetmaker> the only thing to verify is left or right. The rest was accurate
14:42:23 <andythenorth> only obvious patch is the cb15f one I wrote
14:42:43 <planetmaker> and I learnt that the navi system in Ford vehicles is not worth a single penny
14:42:57 <andythenorth> - stations at water industries are silly, but that needs New Stations / New Ports / New ***
14:43:17 <planetmaker> navigation system
14:43:38 <planetmaker> but probably I just don't get your joke ;-)
14:43:45 <andythenorth> - industry closure has not really been considered properly, from ground up
14:44:04 <andythenorth> maybe industry closure needs rethinking, accounting sanely for both NoGo and Newgrf
14:44:24 <planetmaker> preferrably the answer is 'yes'
14:52:35 <andythenorth> currently closure is very difficult to handle well
14:53:11 <andythenorth> at least part of the difficulty is due to the mechanism: newgrf returns 'close next month' to game
14:55:04 <andythenorth> ottd doesn't appear to maintain any list of industries which are then due to close
14:55:57 <andythenorth> does ottd have any kind of data structures available besides the map?
14:57:26 <planetmaker> all the vehicle, cargo packet, orders pools
14:58:07 * andythenorth wonders about a newgrf var that could return list of industries already marked for closure (and type)
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15:01:56 <andythenorth> if NoGo wants to close an industry, who should win? NoGo or Newgrf?
15:04:01 <Alberth> not sure, for idle industries, it makes sense for the game to decide
15:05:10 <Alberth> what are good reasons to let the newgrf decide?
15:05:10 <andythenorth> so the current setup is, newgrf wins
15:05:23 <andythenorth> the current setup doesn't work brilliantly imho
15:05:37 <andythenorth> but we have to preserve that spec
15:06:23 <Alberth> adding a 'please close' option, or is it a special case of 'please go down in production'?
15:06:40 <Alberth> the latter seems a bit awkward
15:07:36 <Alberth> with a used industry, the player must get time to adapt to the industry shutting down
15:07:56 <Alberth> one month is not enough, especially as it is not findable in its window
15:08:25 <Alberth> (maybe with newgrfs it is different, don't know exactly)
15:08:55 <planetmaker> Alberth, "please close" is by the definition of the production callback a special case of "change production"
15:09:07 <planetmaker> but of course the callback is newgrf-decided
15:09:48 <Alberth> let's open a window "dear player, please apply magic bulldozer on this industry" :p
15:11:18 <andythenorth> every time I think about this I end up with precise same amount of puzzle
15:11:35 <andythenorth> for good NoGo gameplay, NoGo should be able to force industries to close
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15:11:53 <andythenorth> but for good industry-related gameplay, newgrf should control industry closure
15:12:17 <Alberth> please elaborate on the latter
15:12:31 <Alberth> what is good industry-related gameplay?
15:12:47 <andythenorth> so newgrfs make promises about industries to player, e.g. deliver cargo, pickup cargo in certain ways, and production will increase / decrease, industry will stay open / close
15:13:16 <andythenorth> but for scripted-scenario style play, NoGo needs to be able to impose on player 'boom, all industries near this town just closed. Bad luck!'
15:13:35 * andythenorth ponders two classes of 'please close' event
15:13:48 <andythenorth> sent by game or NoGo
15:14:04 <andythenorth> class 1 is 'I am just managing the general economy, how do you feel about closing?'
15:14:19 <andythenorth> class 2 is 'for narrative reasons, you need to close. Will you?'
15:14:20 <Alberth> the latter is a sudden change, /me would not like that type of game, but others may
15:14:48 <andythenorth> so OpenGFX+ Industries might answer yes to both
15:14:49 <Alberth> I would like game that switch from one type to another type in say 10 game years or so
15:15:00 <andythenorth> Manual industries would answer no to both (depending on parameter)
15:15:08 <andythenorth> FIRS would ignore class 1, but accept class 2
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15:16:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: your example is narrative
15:16:40 <andythenorth> 'in this game, all coal mines start to close after date xyx, even if doing well'
15:17:20 <Alberth> nope, I think. Production would slowly decrease (less demand of coal), and production of oil increases
15:17:36 <andythenorth> that is harder to enforce without a major spec change
15:18:02 <andythenorth> although 'close' is anyway a specific value for 'change production'
15:18:13 <andythenorth> so there could be two classes of 'change production'
15:18:22 <andythenorth> one more highly weighted than the other
15:18:42 <andythenorth> but then NoGo needs to know that, e.g. this is a coal mine
15:18:46 <Alberth> close == change production, in case production is about 0
15:18:53 <andythenorth> NoGo is supposed to be blind to specific newgrfs
15:19:53 <Alberth> I don't know what NoGo can do w.r.t. cargoes, but that would be the control mechanism I guess (ie increase global production of cargo X)
15:21:30 <Alberth> there is another form of close, but perhaps closely related with industry mix. New industries become available, but old ones refuse to go
15:22:23 <andythenorth> FIRS industries refuse to go
15:22:48 <andythenorth> maybe they should go
15:22:58 <Alberth> yes, which means it is hard to get newer industries in the game
15:23:40 <andythenorth> the original plan for FIRS was successive generations of industries
15:24:00 <andythenorth> over-ruled by players who don't want disrupted networks
15:24:56 <Alberth> I don't know whether two classes is useful; a scenario like mine would be programmed by slow production changes, and then closure; a scenario like your nogo one would simply skip the 'slow production change' part
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15:25:37 <andythenorth> so NoGo would specify amount of coal to be produced this month on map?
15:25:56 <Alberth> they do have somewhat of a point, at 30+ industries, and you move the industries every 20 years, that's a lot of work
15:26:30 <Alberth> that would make NoGo newgrf independent, I think
15:26:42 <andythenorth> so it would be interesting if primary industry production changed radically
15:26:55 <andythenorth> so that the amount of raw cargo produced was centralised
15:27:05 <andythenorth> supplies etc would still be possible
15:27:34 <andythenorth> let amount of coal be 10k tons
15:27:38 <Alberth> It sounds like fun to me, but that's just me, perhaps
15:27:43 <andythenorth> let there be 10 nodes (coal mines)
15:28:14 <andythenorth> let each mine produce 1k tons
15:28:27 <andythenorth> now deliver supplies to mine 7
15:28:38 <andythenorth> mine 7 now produces 2k tons
15:29:04 <andythenorth> other mines produce 1k tons ea. total 11k tons for map
15:29:17 <andythenorth> now coal is out of favour
15:29:27 <andythenorth> let total amount be 5.5k tons
15:29:41 <andythenorth> distributed to mines in same ratio
15:30:09 <Alberth> more random would be more fun imho
15:30:38 <andythenorth> well you write the rules for that in NoGo
15:30:44 <Alberth> ie send out 'change production (up/down)' to random mines until you reach the desired level
15:31:03 <andythenorth> I would set the levels directly
15:31:36 <Alberth> but NoGo does not do individual industries afaik
15:32:34 <Alberth> we could make a notion 'ease of getting the raw material' :)
15:36:18 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am envisaging a whole new layer of spec
15:36:50 <Alberth> omg, what have I done???!?? :)
15:37:43 <andythenorth> industry behaviour is a known problem anyway
15:38:24 <Alberth> Perhaps the issue is not opening/closing but production control in general. Open/close is just the first and last change, in that respect.
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15:40:49 <andythenorth> basically delegate aspects of production control to the script
15:41:06 <andythenorth> via setting existing production level vars
15:41:45 <andythenorth> ship a reusable industry library for nogo
15:42:31 <Alberth> it needs C++ code as well, as there may not be a NoGo script running (or a different one)
15:42:42 <andythenorth> produce a default nogo script to go with the newgrf
15:42:53 <andythenorth> if no other nogo in use, use that
15:42:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: via setting existing production level vars <-- are that global production levels or per industry?
15:43:26 <andythenorth> per industry, but decide the values based on total production, or by any other rules
15:44:07 <andythenorth> this idea only applies to primary-style production
15:44:12 <Alberth> hmm, 1 level per industry type would drastically reduce the number of news items :p
15:44:41 <andythenorth> depends on how nogo triggers news messages :P
15:50:16 * andythenorth needs to read industry_cmd
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15:52:18 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 3 hours, 57 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Zuu> (to gain better control over the transparency)
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16:17:00 <andythenorth> so my idea is something like:
16:17:17 <andythenorth> - allow NoGo to handle IndustryMonthlyLoop as an event
16:17:38 <andythenorth> - give it two passes over the industries, the first is to read properties / variables
16:17:55 <andythenorth> - the second is to set production level for each
16:18:32 <andythenorth> the second pass appears to newgrf exactly as current production cb, unchanged
16:19:00 <andythenorth> and newgrf can choose to defer to game (NoGo), or handle its own production change (no spec change)
16:19:37 <andythenorth> the first pass could then be exposed to newgrf, allowing newgrf to handle reporting values to NoGo
16:20:22 <andythenorth> the industry random production change could be handled identically. (I would bin it, but that's unlikely I guess)
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16:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i make shapes in GIMP? (circles, etc.)
16:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you will NEVER EVER be able to tie FIRS to a script (or the other way around)
16:52:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: (1) why not? (2) that's not my proposal ;)
16:53:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if GIMP is like photoshop, it has vector shapes, or shaped brushes with variable sizes
16:53:53 <andythenorth> or you make a shaped selection (marquee) and fill it
16:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if it does, i can't find it
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17:07:47 <andythenorth> you should have an eliptical select tool
17:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> I've found a "paths" tool, but that seems to do bezier curves only
17:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> or similar stuff
17:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing remotely circle-ly
17:08:40 <andythenorth> don't do circles with bezier
17:08:46 <andythenorth> world of painful pain
17:09:01 <andythenorth> you have a square selection tool (marquee) ?
17:09:06 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd
17:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> does libre office come with a vector program?
17:10:34 <andythenorth> why draw when you can code :)
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17:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24184 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt hungarian.txt polish.txt romanian.txt):
17:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 12 changes by arnau
17:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 13 changes by Brumi
17:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 30 changes by Kilian
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 13 changes by tonny
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18:07:34 <__ln__> that's right. it's the smaller island behind the bigger one on the coast of belgium.
18:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the isle of man?
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18:09:52 <andythenorth> where's my NoGo idea
18:09:56 <__ln__> actually, to avoid causing an international conflict, i have to emphasize that ireland is the southern part of the said island.
18:10:14 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
18:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ireland is in the south of ireland.
18:10:42 <andythenorth> anyone want to educate me on NoGo's basic implementation?
18:10:56 <andythenorth> i.e. how it handles events, and what things it can do practically, without bogging the game
18:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in the beginning there was dust and sand
18:11:39 <andythenorth> and then town growth?
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18:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (or how "basic" did you mean? :))
18:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each tick, the script is continued at the last position it stopped.
18:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the script is stopped if it a) executes a command, or b) the operations-per-tick limit is reached
18:13:36 <andythenorth> one command only per tick? Or is the command 'done' ?
18:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> command is game interactions (build something, etc.)
18:14:04 *** Chris_Booth[ph] has quit IRC
18:14:39 <andythenorth> NoGo can handle events from ottd?
18:14:46 <andythenorth> and return values to events?
18:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the script can check whether certain events occured. but there is no "interrupt handling" for events
18:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and the script cannot return any values
18:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> commands are the only way to influence the game state
18:15:55 <andythenorth> so my idea of handling IndustryMonthlyLoop is pretty dead
18:17:05 <andythenorth> well it was a nice idea, while it lasted
18:18:10 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i have the CIV intro tune in my head now?
18:18:37 <andythenorth> better than the fast food jingle I have in my head :(
18:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and why is that tune not in CIV V?
18:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> or is it, and i just never saw the intro? :)
18:25:21 <NataS> how does multiplayer work? Can I turn an existing game into a multiplayer one so I can consult other players?
18:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can load any savegame as multiplayer game
18:27:42 <NataS> if I run cargodist, will there be problems for people joining my game?
18:27:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. people need the exact same version of cargodist then
18:28:48 <NataS> is there anybody who would mind a consulting job in my company who runs cargodist g1de4d2a5-cd
18:29:00 <NataS> (that's the version number right? If not where can I find it?)
18:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is the version number
18:30:18 * NataS is used to version numbers just being simple decimals.
18:30:58 <Alberth> welcome to the git version control system
18:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the version number for non-releases is: one letter indicating the source control system (r: svn, h: mercurial, g: git), the revision as a decimal or hexadecimal value, and the name of the branch
18:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so here you have "g" for "git", "1de4d2a5" as a hash value indicating the revision, and "cd" as the branch name
18:37:02 <NataS> anyways it's 2080 and I'm a quarter of the way down cuba with almost unlimited funds at this point, but I'm stumped as to how to extend my high speed rail network north of Havana
18:37:10 <NataS> i could use some consultants.
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18:53:07 <supermop> what's up with the 'latest user screenshot of 1.2.0'?
18:53:32 <supermop> pretty sure that is unchanged since the first time I downloaded Openttd in 2008 or so
18:54:15 <NataS> hey, how come food is getting evenly distributed to every town on the line, but goods all get offloaded at the first station?
18:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: yes. it's silly :p
18:55:50 <NataS> no wait now it's working
18:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: the first few packets may get generated with "no destination"
18:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: then they will get off at the first place that accepts them
18:59:40 <planetmaker> supermop: yes, it's indeed silly...
18:59:41 <supermop> No desire to fix it?
18:59:56 <planetmaker> though there are "updated" ones behind it. But... not from 1.2 actually...
19:00:02 <supermop> should that just be removed from the front page?
19:00:04 <NataS> well I have a factory and food plant on opisate ends of my network
19:00:22 <NataS> and I have freight trains running between them refitting on both ends
19:00:23 <supermop> or the caption could just say 'screenshots'
19:01:09 <supermop> planetmaker: I'll try to draw you what I meant for rivers later this afternoon, have to run to a site visit
19:01:58 <planetmaker> supermop: did you read my (recent) reply?
19:02:21 <planetmaker> and the screenshots should not be removed but updated rather
19:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: didn't you want to put the competition intro games as screenshots?
19:03:24 <planetmaker> yes I did and I do
19:12:54 <andythenorth> anybody want to draw Sugar Beet tiles for CHIPS?
19:13:04 <andythenorth> I'm rejecting the ticket otherwise
19:13:23 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: you tried this? ^
19:13:42 <Alberth> make it a low priority feature request :)
19:13:54 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, but it'd take me forever
19:14:00 <andythenorth> I want to close all CHIPS tickets soon
19:14:15 <andythenorth> it's nearly 'done' as far as I'm concerned
19:14:21 <Rubidium> smells like an (ancient) nforenum warning
19:14:24 <Rhamphoryncus> is that an error from nmlc?
19:20:40 <DorpsGek> Chris_Booth: seen [<channel>] <nick>
19:20:42 <DorpsGek> Chris_Booth: Ammler was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 9 hours, 27 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Ammler> else you can use the forums or flyspray
19:23:22 <andythenorth> 4 open tickets for CHIPS
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19:26:01 <andythenorth> is auto-refit still dangerous with cb36 etc?
19:28:24 <andythenorth> can vehicle / model life be fixed?
19:28:32 <andythenorth> currently it's pretty useless
19:28:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there was some good suggestion for that recently....buy menu availability cb?
19:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
19:31:57 <andythenorth> post-stable release is good patching time :)
19:32:47 <andythenorth> seems like a simple cb: return 00 for hide, or any other value to show?
19:33:29 <andythenorth> or return the climate availability to match the current prop, but that might be odd
19:35:01 <Chris_Booth> I need to have /ignore cb in this channel
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19:36:01 <andythenorth> needs a var: check availability of vehicle id
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19:41:15 <andythenorth> only 122 newgrf issues assigned to andythenorth :) :P :o
19:42:11 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: you need a new helper, and a donate button so we can help you for making the game great for us!
19:42:33 <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: just wait until bananas charges $1.99 for newgrfs
19:42:37 <andythenorth> all will be fine then
19:42:50 <Chris_Booth> I would pay that any day
19:42:58 <Chris_Booth> and not even think of it
19:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and return "callback failed" for default (random) behaviour?
19:44:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: or a value for 'use default', e.g. 04 or such
19:45:27 <Ammler> Chris_Booth: Hello :-)
19:45:29 <andythenorth> this is probably a 7 line patch; seems like it's just a switch statement and add the constants for the cb number
19:45:32 <Ammler> do I need to read back?
19:45:42 <Chris_Booth> Ammler: no I have done it now
19:45:59 <andythenorth> adding a var to check availability of other vehicles might be harder :|
19:46:19 <Chris_Booth> I paid for some beer for you Ammler :P
19:46:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: should think about it in conjunction with nogo :P
19:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just pass the vehicle id to a 40+/60+ var?
19:47:04 <andythenorth> sounds plausible
19:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but how to handle the "phases" wrt reliability?
19:47:26 <andythenorth> not sure, I don't really understand them properly
19:47:51 <Ammler> Chris_Booth: ok, the less money I need for the server I will spend for beer, no big issue ;-)
19:47:55 * andythenorth had a silly idea: var calls availability cb for vehicle with id xyz
19:48:03 <andythenorth> *might* be circular :P
19:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and how do i attach wires to this thing?
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20:00:26 <krinn> hi guys, where can i reserve the 4 chars AI/lib to use in bananas ? I can't put my hands on the thread in the forum, is it delete?
20:08:08 <planetmaker> probably it's a sticky in the NoAI / scripts forum
20:09:16 <krinn> that's what i was looking, but it's no more there
20:09:19 <NataS> nobody wants to try co-op with me?
20:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "use a max. 3mm screwdriver"... but apparently their 3mm seem to be smaller than my 3mm...
20:11:39 <planetmaker> NataS: there are the coop servers...
20:11:41 <andythenorth> try '2 and a bit'
20:12:04 <NataS> yes, but I want to bring other players into my existing single player game
20:12:13 <NataS> to help me expand my high speed rail network
20:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> or they meant "use brute force"
20:12:41 <NataS> it's the year 2093 and my network covers a quarter of cuba
20:12:56 <NataS> and I am stumped as how to elegently extend it north of Havana
20:12:58 <krinn> planetmaker, oh gone to the wiki, can anyone add a new one for me ?
20:13:11 <planetmaker> you do that yourself ;-)
20:13:21 <planetmaker> (that's why it was moved to the wiki)
20:13:32 <krinn> never touch a wiki in my life, and don't wish to put hell on it
20:13:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: use a hammer
20:15:02 <andythenorth> convert HEQS to nml?
20:16:08 <NataS> also, no servers match my version
20:16:30 <andythenorth> so I can use the BANDIT code for articulated vehicles, refitting to different lengths etc
20:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: port HEQS to the BANDIT codebase...
20:16:51 <andythenorth> HEQS has a lot of vehicle-specific code though
20:16:56 <andythenorth> BANDIT is 100% generic
20:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only port over the vehicle data and sprite offsets, throw everything else away
20:17:14 <andythenorth> I'd start from scratch pretty much
20:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do FIRS economies first :(
20:17:57 <andythenorth> I can't do FIRS economies in CPP
20:18:07 <andythenorth> that's planetmaker or yexo level stuff
20:18:20 <andythenorth> I could do it in python, but the conversion would be a lot of work :P
20:18:39 <planetmaker> you sure could do that in NML, too ;_)
20:19:52 <andythenorth> we'd want to conditionally change a lot of defines etc
20:20:06 <andythenorth> that means nesting varadic macros or such
20:20:46 <andythenorth> we just duplicate all the code for each economy
20:20:55 <andythenorth> and set the defines appropriately
20:21:39 <planetmaker> I'd do it like in OpenGFX+Industries, first just changing availability of industries
20:21:53 <planetmaker> and maybe then 2nd step parameter-dependent properties
20:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, this smaller screwdriver works way better
20:23:06 <andythenorth> we should probably only change action 0 props anyway
20:23:17 <andythenorth> anything else is a nightmare for testing / bug reports
20:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think cargo availability is the most troublesome
20:23:54 <planetmaker> anything else is anyway a 3rd step only. And we need to see how steps 1 and 2 work out, IMHO
20:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to have different cargo subsets
20:30:12 <andythenorth> fortunately the game handles cargo availability quite well already
20:30:27 <andythenorth> if cargo not available, but define in action 0 for industry, nothing blows up
20:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if SCMT is not defined, you'd want to change the steel mill output to 4 per ore and 4 per coal. or 6/2
20:40:00 <andythenorth> true, but more complicated
20:40:34 <andythenorth> lots of {string} :P
20:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> your idea of just duplicating the industry might come in handy there
20:43:08 <andythenorth> "simple is simpler" :P
20:43:23 <andythenorth> if I did my maths correctly, it produces a ~10MB grf :
20:43:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the output level could work via cargo availability checks to be normalized to the desired max output level
20:43:58 <planetmaker> that probably can be generalized somewhat to work w/o ifs
20:44:58 <andythenorth> if we have to use ifs, it definitely gets worse :P
20:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think you have to duplicate the sprites
20:47:07 <andythenorth> if it was python-based, I'd make each industry type an object subclassing Industry
20:47:20 <andythenorth> each economy would just be a list of industry objects
20:48:11 <andythenorth> I'd template those in with action 7 wrapped around them, all sharing the graphics chain
20:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is that you cannot skip action2 with an action7
20:50:38 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: can you skip both with an action9?
20:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> can't skip action2 with an action9 either
20:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't change it with action6
20:51:50 <andythenorth> I wouldn't need to skip the action 2s afaict
20:53:54 <NataS> are there ANY co-op servers that use any version of cargodist?
20:54:07 <NataS> I want to try co-op, but i Just can't go back to trunk.
20:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: i know that problem...
20:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had that for many years now :)
20:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: you need a pretty close community to use a non-release build in multiplayer, though
20:55:15 <NataS> sure cargodist is less than perfect, but not having any sort of cargo destinations is the opposite of perfect.
20:56:58 <zxbiohazardzx> NaTaS there where some realms that play on custom builds (eg Chrillcore Patchpack
20:57:13 <zxbiohazardzx> if that contains CargoDist then you can try that as tehre are some that do
20:59:22 <zxbiohazardzx> like you would do on others
20:59:33 <zxbiohazardzx> just hit multiplayer and check if you get any greens (matching revision)
20:59:45 <zxbiohazardzx> thats how me/roma/ext used to play huge maps with the patchpack etc
21:00:02 <zxbiohazardzx> then your revision =/ other revisions
21:00:05 <zxbiohazardzx> alot of them are on stable
21:00:12 <zxbiohazardzx> but sometimes you get a few on patchpack
21:00:19 <zxbiohazardzx> if not then just ask on forums if anyone is interested
21:01:15 <NataS> i have come to the conclusion that all the good maps are too big for one player
21:02:27 <Rubidium> then they're probably too big for multiplayer as well
21:02:59 <NataS> why do people keep making huge maps
21:03:10 <planetmaker> that's a good question. I wonder, too
21:03:26 <planetmaker> They just see the big map and the many possibilities. But are not aware of the game's limits
21:03:29 <zxbiohazardzx> i played a 2048x2048 with everything
21:03:34 <zxbiohazardzx> Cindini map in multiplayer
21:03:35 <Rubidium> come on, the only good maps are 16kx16k
21:03:39 <zxbiohazardzx> i haz savegame to share
21:04:00 <zxbiohazardzx> 2048x2048 with paxdest & huge cities, it lags balls even in SP if you try to view the wrong regions
21:05:51 <zxbiohazardzx> to bad its on patchpack, else i would upload it for your stresstest :P
21:06:13 <NataS> well what kind of PC do you use?
21:06:27 <NataS> I have an i7 and 6gb of ram
21:06:44 <zxbiohazardzx> intel i7, 16 gb ram, geforce gtx 560 win 7 x64
21:06:56 <NataS> so it lags even with that setup?
21:07:07 <zxbiohazardzx> ever seen the cindini map?
21:07:08 <NataS> also, what happens if you press fast forward on a tiny map?
21:07:25 <zxbiohazardzx> the 3.0 is downloadable via BaNaNa's
21:07:29 <zxbiohazardzx> im not a fast-fowarder
21:07:42 <zxbiohazardzx> i use pause more often then i use ffw
21:08:04 <NataS> i can fast forward when using my netbook, but it's dangerous to use that on my gaming laptop
21:08:26 <zxbiohazardzx> just grab the Cindini map 3.001 from Banana's
21:08:27 <NataS> there should be a setting to throttle maximum possible speed
21:08:31 <zxbiohazardzx> and go to capitola
21:08:38 <zxbiohazardzx> banana's has it
21:09:01 <zxbiohazardzx> wait your on patchpack right?
21:09:26 <zxbiohazardzx> nvm we used some custom grf's :P so hard to share :P
21:09:40 <zxbiohazardzx> just grab the map
21:09:42 <NataS> and don't know what Bananas is
21:09:53 <NataS> is that the check online content thing?
21:09:57 <NataS> i didn't know it had a name
21:10:06 <zxbiohazardzx> the check online content thingy
21:10:28 <zxbiohazardzx> its in the list for sure
21:10:45 <NataS> if it's the one I think it is
21:10:47 <zxbiohazardzx> statistics on the played map
21:10:54 <NataS> but it's unplayable for me
21:11:08 <NataS> not without demolishing huge portions of the city
21:11:15 <NataS> or removing the highway system
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21:11:29 <zxbiohazardzx> we actually have stations in the cities
21:11:36 <zxbiohazardzx> dont be affraid to nuke hard in the towns
21:11:39 <zxbiohazardzx> we got it done :P
21:11:52 <zxbiohazardzx> ill screenshot some stats for it 1 sec
21:11:58 <NataS> can I see screensho... lol sniped
21:14:19 <zxbiohazardzx> so hard to capture shit in a screeny though
21:14:24 <zxbiohazardzx> as its really nicely fitted in
21:14:31 <zxbiohazardzx> so you hardly notice it zoomed out to much :P
21:14:54 <Mazur> Use a fan, that's always good for capturing shit.
21:15:43 <NataS> how did they make the beaches in this map?
21:15:52 <zxbiohazardzx> rivertiles or canaltiles
21:16:04 <NataS> did they have to flood the area first?
21:16:08 <zxbiohazardzx> higher up in the thread are screenshots of ownage
21:16:33 <zxbiohazardzx> map overvieuws are higher up, the statistics are lower down
21:16:55 <NataS> how is building in the cities possible without cheating though?
21:16:55 <zxbiohazardzx> and ingame screenshots used to be in romazoon's thread, untill something went wrong with the attachements (they wont show for me, to old or so i recon)
21:17:08 <zxbiohazardzx> NataS we did cheat slighly to start off some cash
21:17:15 <zxbiohazardzx> but by carefully selecting some initial routes
21:17:24 <NataS> but I imagine bribes eat that up quickly
21:17:27 <zxbiohazardzx> you can actually later on use your insanity profits to keep it up
21:17:37 <zxbiohazardzx> auto-demolish is on indeed :P
21:17:49 <zxbiohazardzx> to lazy to modify the game to make cities accept even more
21:17:52 <NataS> you mean the magic bulldozer
21:18:04 <zxbiohazardzx> magic bulldozer is on
21:18:17 <zxbiohazardzx> cause city size is not accounted for in the attitude towards changes :P
21:18:36 <zxbiohazardzx> anyway stats are shown :P
21:18:52 <NataS> maps like this make me think some kind of hybrid between sim city and TTD would be intresting
21:19:05 <NataS> play as the local authority and "Zone" areas
21:19:12 <zxbiohazardzx> well whopper spend ALOT of time on that map
21:19:21 <NataS> then coperate with the people playing as transport companies
21:19:41 <zxbiohazardzx> and me/roma/ext played alot of games after/before this one
21:19:48 <zxbiohazardzx> so we all liked realistic networking
21:20:07 <zxbiohazardzx> and playing with a graphically neat style (mainly cityscaping as we called it)
21:20:18 <NataS> I think the worst thing about huge maps like this is the inibility to zoom out all the way
21:21:04 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah instead of extra zoom (more zoomed in) i would have prefered extra zoom (more zooming out possible)
21:21:22 <NataS> yeah, I don't get the point of zooming further in
21:21:27 <zxbiohazardzx> but im not sure how that works out for the devs
21:21:33 <NataS> it will just make things more ugly and less usefull
21:21:59 <planetmaker> 8bpp also uses it
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21:22:12 <zxbiohazardzx> would more zooming out give issues with map-array or shit like that?
21:22:13 <NataS> to zoom out, just censor all the vehicle sprites and compress the map
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21:23:34 <NataS> Hmm, I supose deleting some of the redundent factories would make nice room for freight stations
21:24:22 <NataS> still have to demolish other things to make room for the tracks though, why are these all in the water
21:24:36 <NataS> maybe this map is designed for boats
21:24:55 <zxbiohazardzx> we railed it all
21:25:00 <zxbiohazardzx> see image 5, accerbol :P
21:25:01 <NataS> boats would take forever in this map thought
21:25:07 <zxbiohazardzx> so less industries
21:25:10 <NataS> there needs to be a ship speed factor setting
21:25:14 <NataS> to make them move faster
21:25:14 <zxbiohazardzx> the water and parks are there for a reason
21:25:19 <zxbiohazardzx> we actually did use some boats
21:25:21 <NataS> like the aircraft speed setting
21:25:24 <zxbiohazardzx> but we limited it on multiplayer
21:25:38 <zxbiohazardzx> alot of boats on huge map ==> pathfinder lagged us i believe
21:30:27 <NataS> i just flodded the El Circatriz river
21:33:03 <NataS> anyways, if anybody can run cargodist g1de4d2a5-cd I'd love to hire them as a consultant for my cuban rail network.
21:33:08 <zxbiohazardzx> hehe jump to capitola haha
21:33:20 <zxbiohazardzx> send me a rar with everything i need, then ill check
21:33:41 <zxbiohazardzx> rar with executable && grfs i might need :P
21:33:56 <zxbiohazardzx> 3 more screens for you btw
21:35:44 <NataS> uhh, I don't remember what grfs, but they are all from the loader
21:36:13 <NataS> so you will likely either already have them, and if not you can just download them automaticly
21:36:18 <zxbiohazardzx> just rar me a file that i can execute here
21:36:26 <zxbiohazardzx> just get me the exe then
21:36:57 <NataS> of course, you said you had an i7 derp
21:38:11 <NataS> just let me wait for my dropbox to sync
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21:40:38 <NataS> okay it should be online now
21:41:21 <zxbiohazardzx> nothing found, got IP for me?
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21:44:26 <zxbiohazardzx> nope still wont pick it up
21:45:01 <NataS> I had problems with other games
21:45:09 <NataS> and I don't remember how I solved them lol
21:45:18 <zxbiohazardzx> usually its ports etc
21:45:39 <NataS> do you have uhh, that thing
21:45:44 <NataS> Can't remember wat it was called
21:45:55 <NataS> but it set up a vurtual lan network
21:46:11 <NataS> oh I don't have it on this install either lol
21:46:42 <NataS> well what ports need to be open?
21:47:14 <zxbiohazardzx> see wiki on multiplayer FAQ
21:47:24 <Rubidium> might it be the ports in the multiplayer documentation?
21:47:44 <zxbiohazardzx> 3979 is default, but you can change it :P
21:48:14 <zxbiohazardzx> 3979 inbound+outbound UDP , 3978 outbound UDP
21:50:15 <NataS> maybe just refresh aggain?
21:51:10 <zxbiohazardzx> if not then ill try host
21:52:26 <zxbiohazardzx> Natas is the name if it worked
21:53:59 <NataS> can't find any with that name
21:54:55 <zxbiohazardzx> 93.208.93.109:3979
21:56:05 <zxbiohazardzx> how bout now (changed port triggering
21:58:39 <zxbiohazardzx> can you try once more?
22:00:15 <zxbiohazardzx> still not detecting
22:00:24 <zxbiohazardzx> i hate my network anyway
22:00:33 <zxbiohazardzx> router -> router -> computer
22:00:42 <zxbiohazardzx> fucked up if you need to foward ports etc
22:01:52 <NataS> It might be my end that's causing shit
22:02:04 <zxbiohazardzx> nah i think i got correct outbound now
22:02:27 <NataS> maybe we can try hamachi?
22:02:53 <zxbiohazardzx> hosted another, lets see if i fixed ports now
22:04:32 <zxbiohazardzx> ok lemmy try on the default 1.2.0 games
22:04:37 <zxbiohazardzx> see if anyone else can check it
22:06:11 <zxbiohazardzx> hosting a test on 1.2.0
22:06:22 <zxbiohazardzx> anyone able to connect ?
22:07:49 <zxbiohazardzx> also on a Dedi mode :P
22:08:22 <zxbiohazardzx> udp/tcp packets from 3979 cannot be delivered :P
22:09:01 <NataS> tried to take a whole map screenshot and nither PSelements or SAI can open it
22:09:05 <zxbiohazardzx> looking at the router, those ports are open
22:09:35 <zxbiohazardzx> any ideas on how to fix TCP/UDP port triggering not going as expected?
22:09:53 <NataS> how do I crop a 43 meg png file?
22:10:23 <zxbiohazardzx> just google on huge picture how to solve
22:13:17 <NataS> looking it up I find there are people who have to minipulate 16 gb immages
22:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: "normal" image viewers will try to unpack the whole file into memory
22:13:51 <NataS> apparently these are synthetic aperture radar images.
22:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: so you want one which can handle partial images
22:14:15 <zxbiohazardzx> Eddi any suggestions for that?
22:14:39 <CornishPasty> zxbiohazardzx: you want port forwarding, not triggering
22:14:49 <zxbiohazardzx> CornishPasty hmmz
22:15:11 <CornishPasty> I don't know what port the dedicated server talks to the master server on...
22:15:11 <zxbiohazardzx> how do i foward it haha
22:15:26 <CornishPasty> Virtual Servers, zxbiohazardzx
22:15:45 <NataS> it usualy works in situations like this
22:16:15 <CornishPasty> NataS: I'd use imagick for cropping large files :P
22:16:44 <zxbiohazardzx> CornishPasty still same
22:17:39 <CornishPasty> zxbiohazardzx: I don't know then, I run my openttd on a vps
22:17:57 <zxbiohazardzx> im just trying to get it to accept/run over internet
22:18:03 <zxbiohazardzx> but i keep hitting port issues
22:21:47 <zxbiohazardzx> brb checking something
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22:30:04 <zxbiohazardzx> btw i think Cornish there is another router blocking it
22:30:13 <zxbiohazardzx> i have a modem/router that is linked to the actual router
22:30:28 <zxbiohazardzx> i thought that first router/modem was simply passing it all through
22:30:32 <zxbiohazardzx> but i now have to check :P
22:30:42 <zxbiohazardzx> 192.168.50.1 is the router i can change
22:30:52 <zxbiohazardzx> now i need to find out the ip for the other one :P
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22:48:53 <NataS> well trying to open it in IMDisplay, it hasn't crashed yet, but it's not responding
22:49:26 <NataS> megabytes dosn't seem THAT large.
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23:02:40 *** zxbiohazardzx has joined #openttd
23:02:42 *** zxbiohazardzx is now known as there
23:03:05 *** there is now known as ZxBiohazardZx
23:03:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> so i have to foward ports or trigger them?
23:05:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> now i get "not a valid IP" stuff :(
23:05:44 *** zxbiohazardzx_ has quit IRC
23:11:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> wootwoot i think i nailed it
23:11:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> took long enough :P
23:46:35 <Hazzard> Is there a way to make RVs cost more then the 255x cost_factor?
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