IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-11
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06:42:10 <xiong> Just to be combative... good evening.
06:45:14 <NGC3982> it's a hall & oates wednesday.
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07:33:16 <xiong> Okay. It was a Bessie Smith Monday.
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09:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <? if ('9223372036854775807' == '9223372036854775808') { echo "hurz!\n"; } ?>
09:14:08 <NGC3982> i was like "thats no excel formula"
09:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because php is "intelligent"
09:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> if comparing strings, it first checks whether the strings look like numbers. and then converts them. and then compares them
09:21:31 <CornishPasty> Although anyone using == is kinda silly
09:21:38 <CornishPasty> It doesn't work if you use ===
09:22:06 <Rhamphoryncus> == should be removed from the language
09:26:19 <CornishPasty> == should replicate the functionality of ===
09:26:48 <CornishPasty> have an ini setting for people who need it for old scripts, something like "stupid_equals_shit = On"
09:28:28 <goodger> what's the difference?
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09:37:18 <goodger> makes me glad I never learned PHP
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09:43:52 <goodger> also makes me glad that python is strongly typed
09:49:41 <blathijs> Ah wait, dynamic/static typing != strong/weak typing, of course
09:57:19 <TinoDidriksen> Now if only Python had a strict mode where you had to declare variables...
10:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i'm missing some syntactical sugar that computes to a "assert <some conformance condition"
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10:50:54 <drac_boy> any of you think it might be plausible for the drive-thru station to determine whether its inside or outside the town?
11:26:14 <drac_boy> weird tank it got instead of the usual boxy fuel tender
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11:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: road stations cannot vary their graphics
11:32:39 <drac_boy> think its too hard-coded or one day could be done?
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11:38:49 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause don't know if you could help much but if you had tried a train grf that also included mine rails (2ft gauge and always electrified) which was very cheap to build a long route with and had little runcost. would you probably had tried it?
11:39:12 <drac_boy> hm sorry...ignore the second sentence -_-
11:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i had big interest in getting the industrial trams into HEQS :)
11:42:59 <drac_boy> heh so it was really you? hm :)
11:44:30 <goodger> TinoDidriksen: Cython does include that exact feature
11:44:53 <goodger> but it's optional, and it's only to allow certain optimisations of the C it produces
11:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: we're talking about debugging features. not optimisation features. they're kinda demetrically opposite
11:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what i actually wrote there :p
11:47:07 <goodger> if pushed to choose, I would go for "arising from, or concerning, measurements"
11:52:15 <drac_boy> eddi the other thing I had been thinking about related to mine trains tho...
11:53:41 <drac_boy> what do you think of having two coal mines (assuming industry slots had a free spot) and one is a normal underground mine but the other one can only be built on non-flat ground and contains a short section of animated mine train moving in and out with a string of single tippler cars?
11:54:16 <drac_boy> I think one of the newgrf ore mine had something a little similar but it was a quarry so it was always visible tho
12:01:01 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: You might be able to do that as a single industry. I know I've seen some conditional stuff for snowy vs normal industry variants
12:02:47 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus hmm I'll try check the newgrf wiki for that then
12:24:13 <drac_boy> silly question, is it only one smoke plume location per locomotive?
12:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but articulated parts can steam as well
12:34:39 <drac_boy> yeah I was just wondering about single locomotives
12:35:17 <drac_boy> I guess that something like eg the Fairlie could always be coded as one locomotive with a single invisible pixel for the second part so it could still make double smokes. right?
12:36:01 * drac_boy always thought these double-boiler locomotives were a crazy idea tbh
12:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's possible
12:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> although you may get some glitches if done improperly
12:37:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Wouldn't that mean when going around corners the smoke would project past the edge of the track?
12:58:29 <FLHerne> drac_boy: I know it's an hour ago, but... "LNER garrat but I found a unusual photo" - That's an LMS version :P
12:58:56 <FLHerne> The rotating coal bunkers were a bit odd
13:00:55 <drac_boy> oh..sorry...lms..lner... both are L to me :p
13:01:28 <drac_boy> and btw hi there + see you later maybe ok? I'm going off for a while now. too many other things to do now :-s
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14:42:34 <NGC3982> guys, something bizarre just happend
14:43:49 <NGC3982> im using multiple grfs (just added all the "vehicle" content i found). i bought myself a Hereford Leopard Bus and added a driving location. this is what the busses look like: http://i.imgur.com/c0xzi.png
14:44:11 <NGC3982> looks at the two vehicles in the middle
14:44:31 <NGC3982> that traktor-green-white-bus-truck is a hereford leopard.
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14:48:23 <NGC3982> it seems to reappear when the busses get to the station for loading and unloading.
14:49:57 <planetmaker> NGC3982: enjoy the ingame screenshot function available via ctrl+S
14:52:05 <NGC3982> well yes, that leaves me with a png file. the imgur "app" hyperdesktop lets me click and upload in one go.
14:54:45 <Rhamphoryncus> NGC3982: sounds like something is broken or conflicting
14:57:27 <NGC3982> i realized that they show the wrong sprite (right?) when they are facing 45 degrees down-left.
14:58:50 <andythenorth> can ottd have a new compile target?
14:58:53 <andythenorth> 'make choo choo'
14:58:58 <andythenorth> I guess I could just alias it :P
14:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: but we'd see your used NewGRFs in the openttd screenshot
14:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: so which do you think is more precious: your time or ours?
15:05:18 <NGC3982> im simply showing what's happening in my game. what of this talk about precious time?
15:09:55 <NGC3982> and yes, i ..guess the bus is a newgrf. i dont actually know.
15:10:39 <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: i guess i have been using one or two many grfs together..
15:10:45 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: hey, guess what I'm doing
15:10:55 <andythenorth> micro-managing supplies?
15:11:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Nope. I'm enjoying them.
15:12:05 <Rhamphoryncus> I realized from my last game that if you take an autorefit approach then they're free. You naturally bring them back to the source
15:14:02 <andythenorth> and you worry about micro-managing quantities...or not?
15:14:34 <supermop> not his problem that the coal mine bought 100 huge dump trucks in one month
15:15:03 <andythenorth> one of the reasons I get irritated by supplies....
15:15:24 <andythenorth> ....there's a lot of whining about 'omfg, I have to timetable to deliver precisely 1t per month'
15:15:42 <andythenorth> which is insanely unimaginative
15:15:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Nope. Don't care. A single train does iron ore mine -> steel mill -> machine shop -> iron ore mine
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15:16:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I just make sure it has the right wagon selection and I'm done
15:16:51 * andythenorth had probably better stop discussing supplies :P
15:16:55 <andythenorth> it always ends badly for me
15:17:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Technically it's wasteful because it has 10 wagons for iron ore and 3 for metal/engsup, but that bothers me very little in comparison
15:17:40 <Rhamphoryncus> Hey, I only brought it up this time because I'm *enjoying* it :)
15:19:05 <Rhamphoryncus> I plan to add a coal mine loop that shares the steel mill/machine shop portion, so I'll have to change the wagon numbers due to the production synergy. Doesn't bother me either :)
15:19:27 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: so you're not going to submit a patch removing them? And all associated industries?
15:19:49 <Rhamphoryncus> I do have some ideas on how to redesign farmsup/engsup around this, but that can wait until later
15:19:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Not at the moment ;)
15:20:33 <andythenorth> nice that you're enjoying it
15:20:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Nice to not be bitching
15:20:52 * andythenorth feels only bitterness :)
15:22:39 <NGC3982> ah, saving and restarting the game worked nicely.
15:25:30 <supermop> i want turret trucks to deliver .25t of supplies
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15:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the typical weight a rollator would carry :)
15:50:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Is it still cheesy to build a road route with only a single road tile (meaning it's tiny) when there's only a 3-tile gap between the steel mill and the metal fabrication shop? :)
15:50:22 <Rhamphoryncus> err metal workshop
15:53:02 <goodger> but since you can build stations that magically teleport cargo further than that, it's no great realism issue at least
15:54:10 <FLHerne> It's a good use for those very slow foundry transporters...
15:54:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh! Clearly I should use a forklift :D
15:57:06 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm too little volume heh
16:02:57 <FLHerne> I've got 672 of those forklifts now :P
16:03:09 <FLHerne> They cause quite a bit of congestion
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16:07:11 <Rhamphoryncus> It was cute when I replaced one truck with one forklift. Not so much at 10 forklifts
16:07:24 <FLHerne> Has anyone found a use for the rail Gmund-Mogs>
16:08:08 <FLHerne> Road ones have a purpose, rail ones seem pointless without shunting/consist modification
16:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> in a single-wagon train
16:11:20 <FLHerne> Ah. I always ship those to the railhead in bulk and then use forklifts, hence all the forklifts :P
16:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it was a route nearly orthogonal to any of my other routes
16:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so i chose this method
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16:40:28 <frosch123> everyday i do not get spam in my mail box, i think something is broken :p
16:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i never get spam :(
16:43:20 * Rubidium got a spamburger once ;)
16:45:49 <frosch123> hmm, for what screen resolution are 1024x1024 icons?
16:46:07 <Rubidium> looking at OSX icons?
16:46:30 <Rubidium> probably for the the new new ipad
16:46:44 <Rubidium> so 3kx4k, then it's a lovely 3 by 4 icons
16:47:06 <Rubidium> which is even more icons than my phone's screen can handle at a time
16:48:09 <Rubidium> but it's really a stupidly large icon
16:48:28 <Rubidium> even 256x256 is honestly pushing it already
16:49:11 <frosch123> yeah, but if you want to use it as heightmap you really need at least 256x256
16:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you be thinking about vectorizing the icons at that point?
16:49:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: why should we?
16:49:55 <Rubidium> these huge icons are, after all, generated from a vector image
16:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it gets more and more silly to generate "icons" in larger and larger sizes. so the OS should just be rendering the vector image in the first place
16:53:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Pretty sure gnome can do that, but if osx can't then generate whatever it wants
16:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and convert openttd to do vector-rendering while at it :)
16:56:20 <goodger> the OS can't reliably produce small versions of a vector image
16:57:40 <goodger> not at current display resolutions, at least
17:01:47 <goodger> even if the display resolution were much higher, the icons would still have to be simplified at smaller sizes because the human eye couldn't distinguish all the detail
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17:40:35 * andythenorth might have to stay out forums
17:40:58 <andythenorth> maybe andythenorth should take a chill pill
17:41:05 <andythenorth> it's only a game :P
17:41:21 <planetmaker> what causes you to rage, andythenorth?
17:41:26 * planetmaker thought it's a calm day
17:41:37 <andythenorth> 'what is the release date?'
17:41:45 <planetmaker> ach. Does that bother you?
17:43:27 <planetmaker> it's a new guy. They have one such question for free ;-)
17:44:36 <andythenorth> some days my reason deserts me :P
17:45:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24112 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
17:45:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:45:41 <andythenorth> since having children, I've learnt how a quite small amount of sleep deprivation can change your personality quite a lot
17:45:58 <andythenorth> and a lot of sleep deprivation is really quite strange and mad
17:47:39 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO it's a good question. Enough that it wouldn't hurt to post it on the main page (particularly since all the news there relates to it.)
17:49:26 <andythenorth> sometimes I think the traditional PHPBB forum format has some limitations wrt communities :P
17:49:35 <andythenorth> well obviously it has limitations, all software does :P
17:50:22 <Rhamphoryncus> That format hasn't evolved much in.. 5? 10 years?
17:59:12 <NGC3982> andythenorth: having trouble snoozing the old buzzer?
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18:12:16 <Sarah> please someone can help me?
18:12:51 <Sarah> i dont know how to take screenshots from openTTD
18:15:17 <Vaulter> Look at (?) toolbar button
18:16:02 <planetmaker> press and hold control, then s
18:16:27 <Fori> I have observed a strange behaviour concerning the distribution of food.
18:16:27 <planetmaker> if you are on OSX, then press cmd+s
18:16:45 <planetmaker> hm... I wonder. I need to check :-D
18:17:00 <Fori> A town which isn't even in the reach of my station gets it's food and the one next to it, which is in reach, doesnt get it?
18:17:48 <Vaulter> some houses are too far from their hometown ?
18:18:06 <Vaulter> check houses by inspect tool
18:18:13 <planetmaker> the station is in / on tiles which belong to the other town
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18:20:32 <Fori> But the main, named tile, is in the town to be supplied?
18:24:35 <Fori> I adjusted it so that it's now only on tiles belonging to the town I want to be supplied.
18:24:39 <Fori> Let's see what the month brings-
18:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> one more reason to automatically split (evenly) between all suitible targets near the station
18:26:53 <Fori> Well Eddie. Do towns work like industries in that case?
18:27:07 <Fori> Since the other town isn't in reach of the station?
18:27:11 <Fori> And still gets the food.
18:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Fori: if the houses would get the food directly, then they'd know which town to add the food to
18:29:07 <Fori> Planet's suggestions didnt fix it :(
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18:32:29 <Fori> Planetmaker? Got another idea maybe?
18:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Fori: relevant should be the original name of the station
18:36:05 * Alberth read 'waxed' for the city :)
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18:37:18 <Fori> Eddie? So only replacing the station completely will help ?
18:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. only removing the station and building a new one (with Ctrl)
18:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Fori: nobody will read your replies if you don't spell out the full nickname
18:41:02 <Fori> Is there a short way to do that?
18:42:12 <Fori> Eddi|zuHause: works now, thanks!
18:42:29 <Fori> Ah, that's how you guys do it with that ":" everytime :)
18:42:32 <Fori> Thanks a lot, Eddi|zuHause
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18:54:49 <Bad_Brett> Hello everyone! This is my first time on the OpenTTD IRC channel. :)
18:55:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Hello! It is not mine.
18:56:46 <Bad_Brett> Eddi: I was wondering about the screenshot you posted with the extra vehicle angles... Is there any chance that it will be included in the trunk?
19:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: the relevant core parts are already in trunk, the rest are newgrf features
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19:06:24 <supermop> hmm when real work interrupts writing a post several times i tend not to make any cohesive argument
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19:16:51 <Bad_Brett> Cool! So I can use that build to try extra angles for my vehicles?
19:17:47 <Bad_Brett> ...I guess nml only supports 8 angles though
19:20:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Are you using the latest version of nmlc? (Just guessing, dunno if it has support or not)
19:21:38 <Rubidium> OpenTTD only supports 8 angles. The rest is just a massive amount of trickery
19:23:10 <Bad_Brett> I guess it can be solved by switching between different spritesets when a vehicle enters a curve
19:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's how it is done
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19:24:56 <Bad_Brett> Alright. In that case it's compatible without any patches, which is a good thing
19:25:42 <Zuu> Bad_Brett: That cargo generator, is it made in Matlab?
19:26:43 <Bad_Brett> Though it generates industries now as well
19:26:44 <Zuu> It requires a matlab license to use it right?
19:27:09 <Bad_Brett> Nope, only the MCRCompiler which should be free to download
19:27:34 <Zuu> Oh, though you would need a 10 000 Euro license to use it (unless you are a student) :-)
19:28:13 <Bad_Brett> I'm a civil engineer :)
19:28:46 <Zuu> Oh, actually it's only about 2000 Euro for the base version.
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19:30:06 <Zuu> Though, if you pick everything on their modules list you'll easily go over 10 000 euro. :-)
19:30:35 <Bad_Brett> Now that you mention it... I'll lose my license in a few months... better hurry... or switch to C# :)
19:32:36 <Zuu> hehe, to migrate my OTTDAU development to a new computer I need to buy a license for 1000 euro to get hold of a compiler that is somewhat compatible to the compiler I use today that once used to be a free of charge download.
19:34:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, cute. Changing your autorefit orders switches full load any to full load all
19:34:03 <Zuu> They do have a "starter edition" for just 100 euro, but it only contains the latest version of the compiler that is quite lacking on backward compatibility.
19:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need backwards compatibility for starters :)
19:37:56 <Bad_Brett> 1000 euros sound insane
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19:42:21 <Bad_Brett> Though that file is INSANELY big
19:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 1000 euro is nothing in industrial scale software
19:43:32 <Bad_Brett> no of course no... but it's not something that you buy just for fun
19:44:15 <Bad_Brett> But if I remember correctly I have the right to attach the old compiler my projects
19:47:15 <Bad_Brett> Anyway, is it possible to edit the groundsprites with NML (Such as adding more animation frames to the water tiles) or can I only replace the standard tiles?
19:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can only add animation to objects, not to plain ground tiles
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19:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there is only one water sprite, the rest is done by palette tricks
19:56:10 <Bad_Brett> Really? How on earth can a gain control over that?
19:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: there are so many water tiles on an average map, "real" animation would probably grind the game to a halt...
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20:00:23 <Bad_Brett> Yep, I realise that
20:00:53 <Bad_Brett> But when I add 32bpp water tiles, can I somehow make use of this "palette trick"?
20:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there is recolouring for 32bpp sprites, but i don't know how to use it
20:13:42 <frosch123> how many seconds can you make it?
20:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll check if that is really the latest version that i have first
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20:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i also have some "fix fence drawing" from that timeframe, which afair fixes some corner cases with certain slopes
20:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll add it to the report
20:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> attaching files seems to be broken without javascript...
20:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> wah, forget to change to "patch"
20:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: yes, that is only the "first half"
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20:34:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or it was, back then
20:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't checked in a while
20:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also possible i missed some cases
20:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> while reading the patch, i think i didn't check steep slopes with halftile foundations
20:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (15*15*100)/(13*13*342)
20:46:33 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.389286826534
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20:56:59 <drac_boy> hm curse it, which australia locomotives were for cape gauge -_-
20:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> wikipedia might know that
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21:07:31 <drac_boy> eddi mm problem is so much of these list seem to be standard/broad gauge but nevermind..I found an old site that had the cape gauge seperated out
21:16:48 <drac_boy> heh think I found a nice little diesel locomotive
21:17:05 <drac_boy> 3-axle 250hp light shunt
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22:58:46 <drac_boy> how many countries more or less did run cabless locomotive units? (you know..like with EMD FB7 or GE U30B in north america)
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