IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-10
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00:11:57 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
00:12:33 * drac_boy wonders if theres any europe or uk specific site for specifications on older freight wagons
00:14:12 <FlyingFoX> hi, what is the ratio at which an oil refinery makes oil to goods?
00:16:21 <drac_boy> don't know sorry, just don't forget that station rating also sorta affects the total output a bit too
00:21:12 * drac_boy wonders if anyone else here might know
00:22:43 <ToxicFrog> Although I could crowbar it open and check
00:23:47 * ToxicFrog prods Trac. Give me a URL to check out from please
00:26:18 <ToxicFrog> This may take a while.
00:28:00 <ToxicFrog> Yeah, got past that part
00:28:04 <ToxicFrog> Waiting for it to check out now
00:28:46 <glx> I hope you don't forget the trunk part ;)
00:30:05 <glx> svn.openttd.org/trunk <-- this
00:31:12 <drac_boy> anyone think a doubledeck wagon would had been double the capacity minus one or two less seat rows (since thats where the stairs goes) compared to a standard coach..or is there variety to that?
00:31:26 <ToxicFrog> glx: I'm using git anyways, so
00:31:54 <glx> git has only trunk so it should be ok :)
00:33:48 <ToxicFrog> I assumed it was a git-svn mirror or similar
00:34:03 <glx> it is, but only trunk is synced
00:35:30 <glx> oh some branches are in git it seems
00:39:01 <ToxicFrog> Ok, table/build_industry.h makes me very sad
00:40:01 <ToxicFrog> At least it's decently commented
00:44:47 <ToxicFrog> FlyingFoX: looks like it's 1:1
00:45:20 <ToxicFrog> The refinery has a multiplier of 256 on incoming cargo amounts, but then in the economy code it takes 256 input units to make one output unit, so it's 1:1
00:48:33 <glx> of course newgrfs can change that ;)
00:53:28 <drac_boy> as long as its not too much 'waste' for no reason. would be too silly if you unloaded 190,000 litres to then find ony 40,000 litres of fuel waiting for you :)
01:05:43 * drac_boy throws a lot of gibbish datas into here
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01:38:16 <drac_boy> ok thats enough for tonight now I think...ugh .. a few hours gone :-s
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03:34:25 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm, I think I have a broken town. Station near the center that I load from/deliver to/transfer to. 91% rating, 398 of 485 passengers. Appalling rating and town is NOT growing.
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05:02:16 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hey, what version of OpenTTD is NUTS Unrealistic Train Set 0.0.4x compatible with
05:02:29 <Endymion_Mallorn> ? (sorry, blasted enter key)
05:23:01 <Endymion_Mallorn> Damn and blast.
05:24:02 <Endymion_Mallorn> Because the way I play OpenTTD is PortableApps... and they've only released stables so far.
05:25:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> You know, in upcoming versons, do you think it will be possible for the Content Downloader to be changed so that only GRFs compatible with that version of OTTD were viewable?
05:25:27 <planetmaker> it's feasible since its introduction
05:25:47 <planetmaker> But it's the NewGRF's authors responsibility to set the proper version requirements
05:27:10 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. So the issue would then be with the content download service setup - that it allows NewGRFs to be added without logging minimum version requirements.
05:27:35 * Endymion_Mallorn raises an eyebrow
05:27:38 <planetmaker> The issue is that in this case the author filled out the things wrongly
05:29:30 <Endymion_Mallorn> So find him and beat him with a carp.
05:29:45 <Rubidium> OpenTTD on PortableApps... the place that reads (a part of the) readme for you
05:32:34 * Endymion_Mallorn raises an eyebrow
05:37:27 <planetmaker> in other words: everyone who read the readme can create his or her own "portable app"
05:37:41 <planetmaker> without any knowledge beyond using a copy programme
05:43:55 <Endymion_Mallorn> This requires I want something that I don't just download and use.
05:45:58 <planetmaker> so you download the "portable app" and it's ready-installed on your USB-device? ;-)
05:46:17 <planetmaker> without running the "installer"?
05:46:39 <Endymion_Mallorn> Well, yeah, there's the portableapps installer, but it does everything for me.
05:47:16 <Endymion_Mallorn> I download the .paf.exe file, double-click, and 10 or so minutes later? Poof, perfectly working program.
05:53:29 <planetmaker> thus it saves you to know that OpenTTD saves all stuff next to the dirs of the openttd.exe if there exists a config file file in the data dir next to the openttd.exe
05:53:42 <planetmaker> thus the "install" does just that: copy openttd to the usb stick
05:54:17 <planetmaker> thus any user who read the readme won't need the "portable app"
05:54:29 <planetmaker> as he has everything at hand. Out of box
05:58:16 <Endymion_Mallorn> I installed 1.1.1 on my machine. Needed to download OpenGFX, OpenSFX, and OpenMSX separately. With the two subsequent PortableApps installs since that, never had to play with that. It came pre-packed.
06:00:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. It just occurred to me: if cargo aged in the station then you'd have a lot more diversity in trains (ie lots of small ones that leave at regular intervals). Of course this would have to be newgrf-dependant
06:01:50 * Endymion_Mallorn looks at that like a man reading Greek - just barely getting my head around FIRS and "stockpiling".
06:02:26 <Rhamphoryncus> This thought was inspired by the dutch train set's Plan mP. Dinky thing, in reality used for very small mail trains. In openttd, because waiting in the station is free, is easier (and more efficient) to wait much longer to full load a large train
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08:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause> new modem arrived... my connection might be unreliable in the next few hours
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09:23:05 <Achilleshiel> is there anyone with experience to the tunnel_bridge
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10:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyone have a bright idea how to swap IP-adresses between two devices that both are only accessible via ethernet?
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10:32:46 <drac_boy> is it static network or not so much?
10:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> interesting... i changed ip-adress of my router, but the connection to the internet stayed :)
10:42:01 <drac_boy> well if its static..just assign some new ip to first device for a moment..and then give one of the two old one to second device, then the first device gets the other old ip
10:42:09 <drac_boy> otherwise I don't know how you could had done it
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10:54:04 <orudge> planetmaker (belatedly): it did, last time I tried it, but that was a while ago, but grfcodec/nforenum etc won't build, and networking hasn't worked since IPv6 :p
10:58:58 <drac_boy> not tired anymore fori?
11:00:05 <Fori> I never was tired, was I? ^^
11:01:16 <Fori> I come up with a question again... Sorry for having to compare ECS with FIRS but. Is there industry leveling (production increase for primary industries) in FIRS too?
11:01:48 <drac_boy> fori sorry must had been the other person I was talking to at same time yesterday
11:02:19 <drac_boy> and I'm not sure but I'm sure someone here would tell you soon fori
11:02:51 <Fori> I mean. It would be pointless if they couldn't increase production, would it?
11:03:14 <Fori> I've thought about downloading some IRC client if I come here more often...
11:03:22 <Fori> Tho that webchat is quite comfortable.
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11:08:54 <drac_boy> fori so what are you doing? playing as usual? :)
11:09:56 <Fori> Just testing some new Setup.
11:10:05 <Fori> But I think the trains are too expensive...
11:10:12 <Fori> 400k for an electric train seems a bit much?
11:10:23 <Fori> I'm playing with DBSetXL and BaseCosts on Cabble.
11:11:05 <drac_boy> fori the dbsetxl costs were more or less set 'relastic' so its better to not use basecost modifications on these I recall
11:11:15 <oskari89> No, that's in reality quite little :P
11:11:28 <drac_boy> oskari89 it depends on which currency tho :P
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11:11:45 <drac_boy> how much euro to DEM?
11:11:59 <Fori> And right now, drac, I'm trying to figure out how to enable the station names of "enemies".
11:12:13 <drac_boy> oskari89 I don't think that'll work due to the old 'fixed' multiplier in the game? :)
11:12:32 <drac_boy> fori enemies? heh .. I think its one of these label option in the map menu
11:13:16 <Fori> Was looking over that patch options over and over.
11:13:43 <oskari89> Is there anything like grf for modifiable buying cost multiplier?
11:14:01 <oskari89> Or is it just on the set's, if it is?
11:14:36 <oskari89> Would like to test with locomotives cost over million euros, how business would run in OpenTTD :)
11:14:59 <oskari89> Slowly progressing, i guess..
11:16:10 <drac_boy> oskari I dunno about euro but even in the 1930s some of the electrics are too costly to buy as your first locomotive at all unless you had a very high loan limit with low interest
11:16:30 <drac_boy> or thats my experience with dbsetxl on default costs
11:17:49 <Fori> And it's simply a lot if you ask me.
11:18:21 <Fori> The 160km/h electric lok is around 400k€
11:20:23 <drac_boy> about prices, anyone think that the change from friction to roller bearing would be a slight higher purchase price but lower yearly maintenance cost?
11:20:32 <drac_boy> for anything in general, including wagons
11:23:12 <oskari89> I do start companies always the same way, first buses and road traffic, pay out the loan...
11:23:46 <oskari89> Then i build airports far from each other and then i make money.
11:23:54 <oskari89> Then i start building train network :)
11:24:31 <oskari89> But, can aircraft ranges be disabled somehow on av8 2.1?
11:26:13 <Fori> I've got another question for you guys..
11:26:48 <drac_boy> just wondering as thats the second time I've heard of it, do newer plane grfs actually have a limited range they would travel at?
11:26:56 <Fori> What does "accepts xxx (y/z) " mean?
11:27:48 <Fori> So what do these numbers y and z stand for ?
11:31:41 <drac_boy> if so I'm just wondering if it could be possible to put a station distance limit on certain rail locomotives too
11:36:28 <Fori> Makes sense for steam or fuel
11:36:34 <Fori> But not for electricity, right?
11:37:53 <drac_boy> fori yeah. electrics can travel wherever they want (normally they would had been limited by substations but the game doesn't have that ... steam usually could just run at full pressure till it gets too far and they turn into slow limp
11:38:10 <drac_boy> not too sure how to treat diesels tho
11:38:43 <drac_boy> 'slow limp' as in still moving but the crews probably are trying to salvage any trees into firewood or pail-scooping water from the creeks. actually happened a lot for real
11:39:21 <drac_boy> interesting thing about this tho is that Railroad Tycoon 2 pretty much had the aftermentioned feature. if your steam locomotive runs out of water its top speed drops sharply
11:42:50 <Fori> Or they had to "refuel" sand ^^
11:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause4> seems my new modem works...
11:43:50 *** Eddi|zuHause4 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
11:44:31 <Fori> Anyone has a car set in mind that has some PS power in 1920-1930?
11:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> now i can finally get a 21st century internet connection!
11:45:38 <Fori> Who even uses modems today? ^^
11:45:54 <__ln__> probably most people here.
11:46:21 <Fori> Most of use "routers" don't they?
11:46:26 <Fori> Sure, the modem is integrated.
11:46:42 <Fori> But the last time i've seen a real modem without any other features is quite some time away.
11:47:26 <drac_boy> fori heh actually which 'modem' are you thinking of?
11:47:41 <drac_boy> since theres cable modem and dsl modem .. and to confuse things more, how about cell data modems too?
11:47:50 * orudge has a modem at his new house
11:48:10 <orudge> it does routing as well, but it isn't a switch and it isn't a wireless router
11:48:40 <Fori> I got some thing called "integrated access device" ... Everything is plugged there.
11:48:55 <Fori> Computers, WLan(literally NOT plugged), USB printers and the telephone.
11:50:11 <Fori> Just curious, are you guys playing with the acceleration models on "original" or "realistic"?
11:50:22 <drac_boy> always realistic for me all the times
11:50:34 <drac_boy> then again I never use the original vehicles anymore
11:51:53 <Fori> If I use realistic some weird things happen.
11:52:04 <Fori> Some GRF set with cars gets only accelerated to like 2km/h
11:54:52 <drac_boy> by cars you mean rv right?
11:58:49 <drac_boy> fori if thats the case, certain grfs do have a bug with accerlation for some vehicles
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11:59:09 <drac_boy> especially when the horse trams are reported as 0kN which explains why they barely can move :-/
11:59:43 <drac_boy> hi flherne had a good sleep? (funny enough I almost mixed up you with fori)
12:00:13 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Yes, thanks
12:00:28 <__ln__> what, there's a *realistic* acceleration mode? was that approved of by Belugas?
12:00:58 <drac_boy> fori short to Road Vehicles although trams also are lumped into that category for the game too
12:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i fear that was implemented before his time :)
12:01:27 <Fori> Yeah. Right. Then I ment an RV set ^^
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12:03:37 <drac_boy> FLHerne when you're back, what kind of milk do you like?
12:07:32 <Fori> Is it a "big" thing to change some newGRF things like the text of something ?
12:08:10 <drac_boy> and you could even change the error messages too if you wanted
12:08:38 <Fori> Cause it' squite annoying when using DBSetXL and my friend just bough the "BR 05" and is now complaining that there's nothing in the description of that train saying that it's not able to carry some goods waggons.
12:09:00 <drac_boy> fori umm thats because BR05 is an express passenger steam locomotive
12:10:13 <Mazur> Yes, weird, that, Inever knew before that locomotives were particular about the nature of the load behind them.
12:10:23 <drac_boy> try something between class 40 and 56, not sure exactly what was included in dbsetxl again (thinking of too many other things now)
12:11:04 <Fori> But it's still not a good style if you're not leaving the users a message
12:11:09 <Fori> About how it will works.
12:11:18 <drac_boy> and btw fori dbsetxl likely does not have any of them but class 97 through 99 are for rack or NG locomotives
12:11:28 <drac_boy> fori...you need to know the trains...error messages are not for that :)
12:11:39 <Fori> Not everybody is familiar with train history. I checked out the BR 05 @ wiki so now I know it.
12:12:36 <drac_boy> fori the only one thing I do hate is when I can't use express mail wagons with MU trains for some strange reason tho :-/
12:12:56 <drac_boy> I mean sure the loco ends can be refitted for mail but its often of weak capacity
12:14:49 <drac_boy> although sometimes the term varies along railroads or countries
12:15:09 <drac_boy> like in usa you would have the Budd RDC instead which is short for Rail Diesel Car but its really still a DMU
12:15:32 <Fori> Interesting. You seem to be into that stuff ^^
12:17:23 <drac_boy> fori did you know that the word 'mallet' is actually supposed to mean a locomotive with two seperate set of drivers but one is for high pressure pistons and other for low pressure pistons aka compound
12:17:47 <drac_boy> but of course usa and many other places had to corrupt the term with the simple articulated which uses four equal pistons instead
12:20:24 <Fori> I am curious again. What rate of town growth with FIRS do you consider realistic or fair?
12:21:15 <drac_boy> fori I may be wrong but theres Garrat which basically means a locomotive with two set of drivers but...each drivers are on their own fixed chassis while the boiler and cab are on a third chassis suspended between the aforementioned two
12:21:45 <drac_boy> africa had a good large number of them both small (think 0-4-0+0-4-0) and large (think 4-8-2+2-8-4 or close)
12:22:43 <drac_boy> town growth? fori to be honest I think the growth rate is often too fast in most games :) I always go with a quite slow rate myself
12:23:49 <drac_boy> fori you mind if I ramble on more about steam locomotives? :)
12:24:15 <FLHerne> drac_boy: UK had a few Garratts...I wish someone would draw the LMS type for TTD :P
12:24:55 <drac_boy> FLHerne I think the LMS were a bit troubled. they did work the Lickey Incline for a while but were off the list for good not too long afterward
12:25:19 <drac_boy> although I guess some people could like them for in the game tho, providing breakdown was reduced or off
12:25:54 <FLHerne> We took too long to modernise things - the train lengths they were built to pull didn't fit in loops, and sometimes broke the couplings
12:26:30 <drac_boy> FLHerne I'm sounding a bit like Lionel when they produced the S2 steam locomotive :) only one example existed for real but hundreds existed in model form
12:28:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I've started to turn off towns can build roads. Previously I would tend to avoid service in a town because it'd get annoying
12:29:35 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus heh I always build the town roads for them myself, keeps the layout more sane especially when going around a rail station
12:29:56 <drac_boy> its easy to do since the towns grow at very slow rate so I only have to check every few years at the most
12:30:32 <Rhamphoryncus> They'd continue to do stupid things, which'd drive me nuts
12:31:10 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. I had it set to 3x3 grid, which probably made it worse
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12:31:40 <Rhamphoryncus> A road at the edge of the ocean. It's part of the grid so it'd always be rebuilt
12:31:56 <drac_boy> FLHerne how about the MK1 coaches?
12:32:23 <drac_boy> like them or not so much/
12:32:57 <FLHerne> They're ok, but not much better than Stanier Type IIIs
12:33:22 <FLHerne> Mk2s were revolutionary, on the other hand, and Mk3s are just awesome
12:33:44 <drac_boy> FLHerne I may be the odd one here but I kind of prefer steel chassis wood body coaches myself
12:34:54 <FLHerne> Teaks certainly look nice...metal-bodies ride better and are safer though :P
12:37:13 <drac_boy> well I'm thinking more about cost and longevity. but then mind you if I was to build new rails it would had not even been standard gauge at all
12:39:06 <drac_boy> FLHerne what kind of climate mechanisms would you had put in your coaches if you were to build them?
12:40:00 <V453000> hi, the stolen trees on bananas are replaced by newtrees or are they 2 separate newgrfs and stolen trees were removed from bananas? I though nothing can be removed from there but it seems like it was
12:41:38 <FLHerne> drac_boy: climate mechanisms?
12:42:14 <FLHerne> I'm not sure if there even is a climate here :P
12:42:50 <drac_boy> I meant as in heat, etc
12:43:01 <drac_boy> didn't know what word to use now sorry heh
12:44:28 <FLHerne> Probably pressure ventilation as on some Mk2s then
12:44:53 <FLHerne> ful aircon seems unnecessary with the weather here
12:45:13 <planetmaker> V453000, they were made unavailable for general download on request of the author.
12:45:17 <drac_boy> flherne heh hm you want know what I would had done to all my coaches regardingly of the order?
12:45:43 <planetmaker> You surely saw the drama at tt-forums?
12:47:16 <V453000> oh, then my assumptions were correct
12:47:32 <V453000> I will stay politically correct and wont comment on that :p
12:47:49 <V453000> thanks for answer anyway ... I didnt think it is possible to make some content unavailable :(
12:48:55 <Fori> Maybe someone is here who can help with FIRS. Will primary industries e.g. Ore mines "level up" like they do in vanilla OpenTTD? Even if they're not supplied?
12:49:12 <Fori> By level up I mean ofc improve production.
12:49:34 <drac_boy> FLHerne two axle-driven generators (one per truck for bogie carriages), small battery pack on one side balanced by the ac system and water tank on other side, a single stall-sized washroom at one end of the coach (with oversized-luggages space opposite to it), rely on train steam heating for economy reason. and provide split windows with small bars on the openable half for safety reason
12:49:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Fori: no, if they need farmsup/engsup then they won't increase without it
12:50:17 <Rhamphoryncus> (note that manufacturing supplies, despite the similarity, are just an ordinary input material. Not needed.)
12:50:44 <Fori> Is there some wiki explaining the "level up" mechanisms like there is for ECS?
12:51:13 <Fori> Cause I quite don't like those schemes with rvs loading up small amounts of supplies and stuff.
12:51:28 <Fori> And would like to know if it's possible to make em increase without those supplies.
12:51:41 <Fori> Or at least, without those rv mechanic.
12:52:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Well, there is a patch with firs to expand on farmsup/engsup to be a reasonable amount, and to have a stockpile for several months. Hasn't been accepted yet though.
12:53:15 <andythenorth> some of the RV mechanics smell
12:53:22 <drac_boy> FLHerne one way I see this is that in winter its easy to put on additional coats while waiting for rescue in case of breakdown but..in summers its a different story hence going with the well-known axle>gen>compressor to keep some warm/cold air blowing for a reasonable length of halted time
12:53:25 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Why were you planning coach design in such detail?
12:53:48 <Fori> Is there any way to get it "anyway" Rhmapho?
12:54:13 <drac_boy> FLHerne I don't know, just me :-p I keep thinking about building a real metre railway many times but I doubt I'll ever be able to do it for real (read: stupid insurance rate and overly-safety laws)
12:54:15 <Fori> Because those rv ideas are quite a game breaker for me with FIRS ^^
12:54:33 <Rhamphoryncus> It's on the bugtracker, but you'd have to apply it an recompile FIRS yourself
12:54:35 <drac_boy> flherne that answers you I hope? :-)
12:54:42 <drac_boy> andythenorth how so?
12:55:11 <andythenorth> I just find the RV reverse-piglets odd
12:55:33 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: the farmsup/engsup thing?
12:55:48 <Fori> Rhampho? I mean recomplining firs?
12:56:09 <andythenorth> I designed it so that players would use RVs over medium distances, from a source of supplies, or lots of RVs collecting from a transfer station
12:56:18 <Rhamphoryncus> it's not trivial
12:56:36 <andythenorth> but there's this weird alternative where trains deliver lots of supplies to one industry, then a 1 tile RV is used to deliver them
12:56:43 <andythenorth> which illustrates several things
12:56:49 <andythenorth> - there's nothing so strange as folk
12:56:53 <andythenorth> - unintended consequences
12:57:12 <andythenorth> - also...bad maths
12:57:43 <Rhamphoryncus> It's not AS bad with the patch.. but it still has a smell
12:57:56 <andythenorth> at the start of game, supplies are in....short supply. This 1-tile RV method spreads the available supplies in a very inefficient way
12:58:47 <andythenorth> and no, there's no way to use default production increase behaviour with FIRS ;)
12:58:53 <andythenorth> although patching for it would be trivial
12:58:59 <andythenorth> it's a couple of lines and recompile
12:59:09 <andythenorth> (more if you want to change the text)
12:59:30 <andythenorth> and compiling is trivial, if you have *all* the required tools
12:59:59 <Rhamphoryncus> I think the real problem is that it goes against the flow of the game. The game is almost always (pax/mail excepted) volume based and concentrating to a single industry. There's no need to time, share, or coordinate other than having enough capacity.
13:00:31 <andythenorth> I think that's probably true
13:01:17 <Fori> Didnt want to make it all such a big discussion ^^
13:01:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Unrealistic perhaps, but it IS part of the game. Without cargodist or YACD you HAVE to jump through hoops to spread cargo back out to multiple drops
13:02:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Not to mention the infrastructure is a ton more work
13:02:26 <andythenorth> it made sense on a 64x64 map, with only one steel mill
13:02:37 <andythenorth> but it's borderline tedious on a big map
13:02:44 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus or just simply use short trains rather than trying to load up one long train?
13:03:01 <andythenorth> supplies were invented simply to provide a use for some vehicles that were going to be added to HEQS
13:03:14 <FLHerne> Helicopters do supplies in a conveniently non-micromanaged way :P
13:03:15 <andythenorth> those vehicles were never added, rendering supplies somewhat pointless
13:03:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Well I did have one good thing on my last game: autorefit of oil -> petrol -> engsup -> oil. Mind you, the engsup wasn't part of the autorefit. Had a single car tacked on the end for that.
13:03:56 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: short trains alone won't do it. You'll get a burst every time you have a delivery. The entire chain would have to be short
13:04:43 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: still requires manual balancing
13:04:56 <andythenorth> what is this balancing problem?
13:05:02 <andythenorth> I have never encountered it :P
13:05:27 <Rhamphoryncus> oh, probably because I've been playing with the patch and have actual consumption
13:05:41 <FLHerne> As long as x thousand crates are available, balancing is a non-issue :P
13:05:59 <andythenorth> they end up massively over-abundant :P
13:06:05 <andythenorth> I run out of places to send them :P
13:06:18 <FLHerne> x being some number about 5x the number of supplied industries, normally
13:06:29 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: does the patch increase micro-management?
13:06:43 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. I'd say so, yes :(
13:07:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Because it makes them meaningful, rather than a joke.
13:07:48 <drac_boy> is there anything that a gondola can specifically carry that a flatcar or hopper can't?
13:08:24 * FLHerne rarely sees aggregate loaded on flatcars or in hoppers
13:09:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I had a game a bit ago with 14 farms in one area. I used a central transfer station with a scummy non-uniform station loop to spread them out. It'd fluctuate between over-supplied and under-supplied. It was never "right".
13:10:07 <drac_boy> aggregate hmm. flherne you think that to avoid one more wagon id the flatcar could just simply sport a different sprite with the low sides for to carry aggregate cargo? considering its similar empty weight
13:10:24 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: meh
13:10:34 <andythenorth> that's one of the reasons I never wanted to make it more complicated
13:11:29 <FLHerne> Stockiling for a while makes sense imo - it's the need for insanely frequent deliveries that's a nuisance
13:11:35 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd still have that with stock, but I'd have to under-consume on that loop and blindfold myself not to notice the massive backlog
13:11:55 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: the patch has a 6 month stockpile. Still a PITA.
13:12:02 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: give in
13:12:05 <andythenorth> make it unlimited
13:12:14 <andythenorth> allow 20k tons to be delivered at once
13:12:20 <andythenorth> consume at 1t per month
13:12:28 <andythenorth> play rest of game
13:12:37 <andythenorth> that's what players actually want
13:12:50 * andythenorth should be less cyncial
13:13:03 <andythenorth> the correct answer is that supplies should be removed
13:13:18 <andythenorth> but every time I propose this, there is much expression of woe and sadness
13:13:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Less cynical: what can replace it that's interesting, without being a pita?
13:13:54 <andythenorth> they go against the game
13:14:09 <Rhamphoryncus> ... farm supply store?
13:14:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Just like a hardware store
13:14:44 <andythenorth> seriously the best patch would be one that removes supplies and all associated industries
13:14:48 <andythenorth> I give you commit rights
13:14:51 <andythenorth> you get all the blame
13:14:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Well it'd be just-another-industry
13:15:54 <andythenorth> then submit a new patch
13:16:02 <andythenorth> 'all industries have max production that never falls'
13:16:05 <andythenorth> and then another patch
13:16:10 <andythenorth> 'super giant maps'
13:16:13 <andythenorth> and then another patch
13:16:22 <planetmaker> super giant maps?
13:16:22 <andythenorth> 'super giant flying maglevs'
13:16:56 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
13:16:58 <planetmaker> I'd say: it exists. But...
13:17:04 <andythenorth> @calc 2048 * 2048
13:17:04 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4194304
13:17:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker ^ that big along each edge
13:17:21 <andythenorth> maglevs at 1 million miles an hour, 1 million ton capacity
13:17:33 <andythenorth> did I say yesterday I should be less cynical?
13:17:45 <V453000> yeah! and maximum of 1 million vehicles per company
13:17:53 <Rhamphoryncus> oh, the old farm supply depot isn't what I was suggesting
13:18:07 <V453000> and a monster cpu for everybody
13:18:10 <andythenorth> V453000: minimum of 1 million vehicles per company
13:18:17 <andythenorth> you start each game with 1 million vehicles
13:18:18 <drac_boy> maybe try that for somewhat more relastic long distance high speed trains :)
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13:18:28 <Rhamphoryncus> I just meant as a drop for farm supplies, so you could keep the production chain while eliminating it from individual farms
13:18:48 <andythenorth> farms should be one industry
13:18:55 <drac_boy> V453000 I rarely get into high vehicles even with a busy network. so I wouldn't care for a 2 thousand vehicles limit :)
13:18:58 <andythenorth> e.g. 20 'farm' graphics comprises a 'farm'
13:19:16 * andythenorth might do something more worthwhile
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13:20:44 <drac_boy> anyone else think that using a flatcar with new sprites for low sides to carry aggregate could work without any gameplay issues?
13:20:55 * Mazur thinks FIRS supplies are fun, especially since it's not much that's needed.
13:21:36 <Mazur> Gives a contrasting network image to the regular loads.
13:21:44 <FLHerne> Add a parameter option for supplies delivery options - "monthly"/"stockpiling"/"whatever other option gets invented" :P
13:22:49 <Mazur> What I find a pita is industries disappearing after you've build your station, even after the first load has been shipped.
13:23:23 <Mazur> And secondary industries hanging around even though you never use them./
13:23:30 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: just sounds like a magic "do anything" car
13:24:29 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. Maybe a 12 month stockpile with 1 consumption/month would work
13:24:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
13:24:55 <Rhamphoryncus> If serious doesn't work then make it even more of a joke ;)
13:25:01 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus heh I was just wondering about having to use up another id just for one cargo or not :)
13:25:08 <drac_boy> considering other cargos can do without a gondola
13:25:31 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: can't say I understand what id limits there are
13:25:59 <drac_boy> not just limit but the work to code it .. and counting sprites
13:26:45 <Mazur> Who's counting sprites? I'm not. Crows, maybe.....
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13:28:25 <drac_boy> mazur a grf is made up of sprites so :)
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13:38:15 <Mazur> drac_boy, you could always make the Further Reunited Industrial Totality Set: all the primaries and secondaries of the various sets minus the supply chains. That'd give large maps something to fill them with.
13:38:36 <Mazur> Using the reguilar increase system.
13:41:57 <drac_boy> mazur not my kind of thing sorry :)
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13:46:51 <drac_boy> going out for a bit now, will be back later tho :p
13:52:15 <Fori> Rhamphoryncus? When there's two e.g. mines next to each other, with one station having both of em in it's reach will delivering the goods to that station split em between the two?
13:53:09 <Rhamphoryncus> The game picks one (afaik based on the center of the station (obvious) and the center of the industry (not obvious), and sticks with it
13:55:06 <Fori> Is it that bad when only once every couple of months a train with a huge load comes?
13:55:20 <Fori> Will the industry increase the production?
13:55:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Only that month has a chance of increasing
13:56:17 <Fori> Oh wow, that's really annoying me right now ^^
13:56:53 <Fori> That's a thing I like about the ECS storages...
13:57:04 <Fori> Are there any plans on making that patch official?
14:01:14 <lugo> ecs is not a patch, it's a newgrf
14:02:00 <Fori> I know. But there's a patch trying to fix the concerns I have against FIRS which is quite similar to the stockpile system of ECS:
14:12:25 <planetmaker> that won't be fixed
14:12:30 <planetmaker> or rather "fixed"
14:12:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Fori: it just exasperates the underlying problem
14:13:01 <planetmaker> Using NewGRFs works well and allows more or less arbitrary systems as devised by the NewGRF authors desires
14:13:22 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: he's talking about FIRS
14:13:47 <planetmaker> hm, right. Well. there the answer is 'yes, it should be fixed"
14:14:01 <planetmaker> And IIRC you, Rhamphoryncus did some work on that matter :-)
14:14:08 <Rhamphoryncus> should be, but so far the only solution is to rip it out :/
14:14:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Yes, but as I say it just exasperates the problem
14:14:36 <planetmaker> well, I try or tried to implement something which keeps last delivery date and a manual stockpile kind of
14:14:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Openttd is not good at spreading cargo out
14:14:53 <planetmaker> but maybe one should use a real stockpile but just no limit for it (or rather 64k units)
14:15:05 <planetmaker> no, the spreading out won't be solved by that. Rather can't
14:15:21 <planetmaker> that's a issue (or non-issue, depending on view)
14:15:30 <Rhamphoryncus> it's *the* issue
14:15:47 <planetmaker> the solution is simply to build a distribution centre and deliver locally from that to the individual industries.
14:15:51 <planetmaker> It's even realistic ;-)
14:16:05 <Rhamphoryncus> No, that's still finicky. Requires lots of micro management
14:16:32 <planetmaker> so macro management is "send some trains between arbitrary points A and B" and then expect that everything works?
14:16:56 <planetmaker> industries are the building blocks which define supply / demand
14:17:04 <Rhamphoryncus> The normal behaviour is A, B, and C all go to D, which goes to E
14:17:09 <planetmaker> Thus it's imho ok in a transport game that they require individual attention
14:17:16 <Rhamphoryncus> And you just build enough to handle the volume
14:17:26 <Rhamphoryncus> There's no competition for cargo
14:17:44 <planetmaker> you don't sell the cargo. You get only paid for delivery.
14:17:51 <planetmaker> And the industry which receives it pays you
14:17:56 <planetmaker> why should the other one get it?
14:18:25 <planetmaker> I won't pay you either, if you ship my computer to the neibouring town
14:18:33 <planetmaker> it's just not good enough
14:19:06 <Rhamphoryncus> You misunderstand. You drop a trainload of farmsup at your distribution centre. This has trucks going to 5 separate farms, with multiple for each farm due to the spread. However, on this batch only one farm gets supplied
14:20:04 <planetmaker> you mean as you can only supply full truck loads?
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14:20:11 <planetmaker> Use small trucks :-)
14:20:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Micromanagement
14:20:24 <Rhamphoryncus> There's only so many options
14:20:24 <planetmaker> I suggest the forklift from HEQS
14:20:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Forklifts are stupid :P
14:20:39 <planetmaker> not micromanagement really... just choosing the appropriate vehicle
14:21:03 <Rhamphoryncus> You still end up with 50 different routes across your map, with unhandled cargo piled up everywhere
14:21:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Once setup, if it actually works you have essentially infinite supplies
14:21:54 <Rhamphoryncus> So the entire thing exists just to say you did it. Why bother?
14:23:06 <Rhamphoryncus> I've tried all manor of different schemes. None of them were fun.
14:24:12 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, I'd use one route only for all forklifts. They service all adjacent industries in sequential order
14:24:34 <planetmaker> goto pickup, goto A, goto pickup, goto B, goto pickup, goto C, goto pickup, goto D
14:24:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Done that too. Clumpy.
14:24:42 <planetmaker> works very well actually
14:25:01 <Rhamphoryncus> With a timetable patch maybe
14:25:25 <planetmaker> also without. You can force a wait via timetable already now
14:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the timetable lasts 30 days
14:26:16 <Rhamphoryncus> So you have 20 forklifts going to A, then 20 to pickup, then 20 to B, then 20 to pickup..
14:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> if it takes multiples of 30 days, use multiple forklifts
14:27:02 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm assuming multiple forklifts
14:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you only need one supply per month
14:27:39 <Rhamphoryncus> If your farms are close enough to be serviced by 1 then they're close enough that the pickup actually catches from all
14:28:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Which just makes you realize how silly the behaviour is
14:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so what is your problem?
14:29:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Why bother? It's nothing more than an hour setting up a copy-and-paste job, identical to your last 20 games, with nothing interesting. A waste of time.
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15:03:50 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 34 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <Pikka> because you can't get the wood you know
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15:27:12 <Fori> Intersting discussion Rhampho.
15:27:25 <Fori> Is there some console function to give a player cash in a MP game?
15:30:22 <Fori> I mean, as a dedicated server.
15:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but you might be able to do that through the admin port
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15:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> why is there no crontab on fritzbox?
15:39:27 * andythenorth struggles for witty answer
15:45:42 <Rhamphoryncus> crontab is failtab?
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17:01:40 <Fori> Did the algorithm for replacing trains change?
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17:02:25 <Fori> Cause I think in my current game it's not working very well.
17:02:51 <Fori> The trains which should be replaced just cross the depot not caring about my orders.
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17:11:28 <Fori> Wow. That took like 10 minutes to replace that one train?
17:11:38 <Fori> I dunno if that's all running correct ^^
17:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> the algorithm was changed to only visit the depot for replacement if the maintenance interval ran out
17:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> to avoid trains all going to the depot at the same time, and also to avoid a train repeatedly going to depot because the replacement failed
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17:44:34 <NGC3982> there is so much win in that man.
17:44:56 <NGC3982> and there is no win at all in those people.
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17:55:50 <Fori> May I pm you some question in German?
17:56:08 <Fori> As it seems I'm not able to find the words in English.
17:57:55 <Wolf01> NGC3982, the first image is what make me put trust on the humanity, the second one is what make me feel as I want to kill as many people as possible
17:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> schemas-upnp-org:service:WANIPConnection:1" /></s:Body></s:Envelope>'
17:58:09 <Fori> Don't you like XML Eddi? ^^
17:58:36 <NGC3982> seriosly, the common knowledge among kids born in the nighties is horrible.
17:59:51 <Fori> Well. Maybe anyone else knows. I'll try it in English. Does the replacement of trains watch out that it doesnt replace trains which can't be fit to that kind of waggon the old train used?
18:00:50 <SpComb> and the Costa Concordia was "like a real-life Titanic"
18:10:44 <Fori> Anyone has experience with BaseCostMod?
18:11:54 <Fori> Seems like I'm unable to adjust the costs for industry building.
18:12:32 <V453000> do you have any industry set like FIRS loaded?
18:13:11 <V453000> should work normally then
18:13:39 <Fori> Maybe some other GRF is interfering.
18:14:17 <planetmaker> changing basecost mods post game-creation usually is not a good idea
18:14:32 <Fori> It's not post game planet.
18:14:39 <Fori> Seems like some other GRF is interfering.
18:15:13 <Fori> Total Town replacement maybe?
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18:15:36 <andythenorth> NGC3982: when were you born?
18:16:12 <NGC3982> andythenorth: in 1987. in sweden, we are (until 1989) the last of the full public school educational breed.
18:16:34 <Fori> Right. It was the fault of "DBSetXL"
18:16:55 <andythenorth> so here's the funny thing about kids born in the eighties
18:17:16 <NGC3982> since 1990, the grades of swedish students are falling into complete ridicule.
18:17:31 <andythenorth> it's not common knowledge among eighties kids (yet) that every generation thinks the following generation lacks common knowledge :P
18:17:42 <NGC3982> well, of course, that is true.
18:17:48 <NGC3982> though, this time its different.
18:18:11 <andythenorth> NGC3982: it's the fault of video games
18:18:40 <NGC3982> surely not. me and my eighties friends played games too.
18:20:08 <Fori> What's "auto refittable"? Does that mean when the train is replacing some other it's automatic refitted? Referring to UKRS here.
18:20:09 <NGC3982> the problem (at least in sweden) as i see it, lies in kids growing up in a society where it's "lame" to be and act as a kid.
18:20:51 <NGC3982> people are for some reason supposed to stop play with toys and games when they turn 10, and immediately start acting as adults.
18:21:07 <NGC3982> which for a ten year old often means "ill do what i want".
18:21:21 <NGC3982> and that kind of makes the recipe of crap-cake.
18:21:34 <supermop> i think 10 year olds did that 40 years ago
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18:21:48 <NGC3982> well, why does it affect us so badly right now?
18:22:04 <supermop> and 'do what i want' is child like, not adult like
18:22:13 <NGC3982> yes, that is kind of what i mea.
18:22:29 <supermop> if they were acting like adults they would have mortgages and boring jobs
18:22:35 <NGC3982> and, i fail to see ten year olds being a profitable market for lingerie in the seventees.
18:23:25 <planetmaker> Fori, refit possible in stations
18:23:40 <planetmaker> to match available cargo
18:27:10 <planetmaker> do you play OpenTTD 1.2.0-RCx ?
18:27:31 <planetmaker> if not: it's an unavailable feature in earlier versions
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18:38:28 <Fori> Planetmaker? Can you explain?
18:40:35 <planetmaker> checkout the available orders of such vehicle.
18:41:48 <planetmaker> e.g. if you have a wagon which can carry coal, ore, ... and you have it go to a station which has both, the wagon will refit to what is available more
18:46:15 <Alberth> I obviously do not play openttd enough :)
18:49:51 <planetmaker> Alberth: few vehicles support that yet. You'll need the correct newgrf(s)
18:50:39 <planetmaker> seems like ukrs2 does.
18:51:04 <Alberth> oh, does opengfx+ do? that's the only vehicle newgrf I play with
18:51:54 <Fori> Well. UKRS has at least some hints about it,
18:52:01 <Alberth> yes planetmaker makes very nice planets
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18:54:44 <Fori> So, for my new game I adjusted the WAS airplanes to cost 138.000.000€ for an A380
18:56:40 <planetmaker> Alberth, it does support it
18:56:50 <planetmaker> (I think I was first ;-) )
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19:04:11 * NGC3982 humbly asks for a new jupiter without the twat face storm.
19:04:36 <planetmaker> woot? A new...? It's the king of the planets!
19:05:18 <NGC3982> well, that red thing has been bugging me
19:05:53 <NGC3982> it disturbes the feng shui of the solar system.
19:06:40 <planetmaker> hardly. Given that every other planet with atmosphere has storms, too
19:06:57 <Fori> What's the main difference between realistic and original acceleration models?
19:07:35 <planetmaker> ^^ good page. Also called manual
19:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you need a new king occasionally
19:08:07 <Fori> Wow. I've been reading game mechanics all day long must be blind.
19:10:04 <planetmaker> The king is dead. Long live the king?
19:11:51 <NGC3982> planetmaker: a four day orbital?
19:12:00 <planetmaker> rather common ;-)
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19:13:03 <planetmaker> 55 Cancri is a nice system
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19:14:01 <NGC3982> what does the "M.sin i" represent?
19:14:52 <planetmaker> i is the (unknown) inclination with which we look at that system's ecliptic plane. Thus we only know M * sin i of the companions' mass
19:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> rather common ;-) <-- you mean "those are just the easiest to find" ;)
19:19:34 * NGC3982 jazz + mat'34 "Vlieg. Holl."
19:19:45 <planetmaker> They are easy to find. But statistics and observation time are good enough to know probabilitiy of planets with orbital periods smaller than ~10 ... 15 years
19:20:12 <NGC3982> i just realized that vlieg. holl. is dutch for 'the flying dutchmen'
19:21:47 <NGC3982> planetmaker: im a bit new to this. i guess one can easily find lots of exoplanets with orbital time under a few days, since short observations of stars reveals a small dip in light.
19:22:01 <NGC3982> and the small wobble of some stars, i guess
19:22:18 <NGC3982> but, how do we find exoplanets with orbital periods exceeding years?
19:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're observing light variation, you need ~2.5 revolutions
19:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> 0.5 in average to see the first variation, 1 to see the second variation, and 1 to confirm your measurements
19:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that means to find a planet with a period of 15 years you have to observe the same star regularly for almost 40 years
19:26:11 <NGC3982> and we have no alternative methods of finding them?
19:26:11 <Alberth> the question is whether it is of interest to find such planets, given our narrow idea of life
19:26:33 <NGC3982> Alberth: well, if science allows faster methods, its a sure pleasure of mapping space.
19:26:37 <Alberth> NGC3982: probably it exists, we just haven't found it
19:26:50 <NGC3982> and with importance, determing the number of actual planets in the universe.
19:27:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you can deduce orbits from less than 2.5 revolutions
19:27:35 <Alberth> NGC3982: why is the number of planets relevant?
19:28:07 <NGC3982> Alberth: it gives us a good measurement on where most of the mass in the universe is placed.
19:28:25 <Alberth> almost infinite seems a quite adequate guestimate to me :p
19:28:50 <planetmaker> NGC3982: the planets' mass is negligible
19:28:58 <planetmaker> irrespective of how many there are
19:29:43 <NGC3982> i dissagree. even though it might not be very useful, its still a neat way to map up areas as we see them.
19:30:00 <NGC3982> oh wait, i dont dissagree
19:30:17 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you should be able to do that much faster with CSI technology
19:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you assume our solar system is somewhat "average", then you can deduce the number of planets by comparing planet mass to solar mass, and applying that ratio to galaxy mass
19:30:59 <Rubidium> you just need small reflective surfaces at right angles at the right distances
19:31:06 <planetmaker> given radial velocity measurements you can be reasonably sure about a companion when you got a significant amount of a single period
19:31:12 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: yes, thats true. but the "somewhat average" can surely be deduced to a new decimal with data on other solar systems.
19:31:34 <planetmaker> as you know the Keplerian laws. Further measurements then usually only make it more precise
19:31:57 * NGC3982 needs to google that.
19:32:24 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the assumption that our solar system is average, probably is wrong
19:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. i specifically said light variation, not speaking about other measurements like velocity
19:32:37 <planetmaker> as only about 15% of all stars have planets
19:32:41 <NGC3982> well, i guess you are right. though, i still dream of a feature where we have mapped and named -everything-,
19:33:24 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: if you can measure transits, you can measure the radial velocity
19:33:36 <NGC3982> i really need to read up on my english.
19:33:55 <NGC3982> im getting sick of googling words every time i want to talk about cosmology.
19:34:21 <planetmaker> I'm actually happy that this is not cosmology ;-)
19:34:30 <__ln__> exoplanets are not cosmology, indeed
19:34:31 <planetmaker> I'm quite bad at cosmology :-P
19:34:32 <Rubidium> NGC3982: then talk about astrology
19:34:48 <Rubidium> NGC3982: no, astrology
19:34:55 <NGC3982> Rubidium: not funny, thank you.
19:35:00 <Rubidium> then you can just talk nonsense and it still makes sense ;)
19:35:14 <planetmaker> and make (much) more money with that
19:35:32 <NGC3982> well, combining astronomy and astrology surely looks profitable
19:35:48 <NGC3982> "trust me, im a scientist" (half-life).
19:36:08 <__ln__> they were one science earlier
19:39:46 <Rubidium> too bad I can't find a subtitled version of the "Gastro TV" sketch that was on television a while ago after all those "astro tv" things got cancelled/banned
19:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> they got banned?
19:40:19 <NGC3982> planetmaker: only 15% of the stars have planets, by the way?
19:40:56 <NGC3982> the last thing i heard about something similar was carl sagan in cosmos, hoping that 70 or 80% of the stars had at least one planet.
19:41:42 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: by most channels yes
19:42:40 <Rubidium> and if I recall correctly they got totally banned including all of the other similar tv 'programs' in Flanders
19:43:43 <Zuu> I can't recall that I've ever seen an astro program on TV.
19:43:57 <Rubidium> Zuu: then you should by a TV ;)
19:44:16 <Rubidium> and channel surf the crappy channels in the late morning or mid afternoon
19:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> we've got a "full time" astro tv channel
19:45:13 <Zuu> I tend to not watch the channels on it especially not the crappy ones.
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19:50:00 <__ln__> next to Flanders is Simpson?
19:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong country :)
19:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: it's somewhat of a running gag throughout simcity versions
19:56:21 <Nat_aS> yes but the gag must have started as a programer in joke
19:56:42 <Nat_aS> I'm fairly sure it's something that Sim City 2000 actually does in map making.
19:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> splines are a mathematical interpolation method
19:58:02 <Nat_aS> and what does that mean?
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19:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: there's a big "english" link on the left.
19:59:58 * Nat_aS searches the same thing on the EN wikipedia
20:00:15 <drac_boy> what looking for btw Nat_aS?
20:00:36 <Nat_aS> Reticulating splines, and how it applies to making random maps
20:00:58 <Nat_aS> because whatever algorithm SImCity 2000 uses, it's better than what we have
20:01:10 <Nat_aS> and the only lead I have on that is there Reticluating splies joke
20:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: there was a fairly comprehensive explanation on how simcity-style maps are generated
20:01:35 <drac_boy> btw I got a small question...is it phpbb or the forum host (I think we know who heh) thats not listing Canada for the language menu on registeration page?
20:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: but it's not something that can usefully be done for a "whole world" map
20:02:41 <Rubidium> drac_boy: I reckon it's due to there not being a Canadian English translation
20:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: you only get "one costline" or "one river" style maps out of it
20:02:59 <drac_boy> guess its phpbb then
20:03:12 <Nat_aS> there's no way to specify other land formations?
20:03:12 <Rubidium> drac_boy: but you can do something about it
20:03:18 <drac_boy> hmm think I'll just register with british language soon then
20:03:43 <Nat_aS> Even with one coastline and one river, I still like the arrangement of hills and flats better than OTTDs.
20:04:44 <Nat_aS> i know SC3k allowed up two 4 coastlines (Peninsulas, isthmuses, and islands) as well as Mountians and lakes in the cente
20:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: yes. pure "noise" does not result in very favourable maps. that's why the landscape variation functions have been introduced
20:05:41 <Nat_aS> then SC4 went all out with hyper realistic terrain, but at the same time construction was confined the a grid, meaning it was almost impossible to build cities that fit onto this realistic terrain
20:06:00 <Nat_aS> SC4 is an example of how not to build a game.
20:06:16 <Nat_aS> advancing the engine without advancing the gameplay is bad
20:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the grid is one of the biggest weakness of sc4
20:06:33 <Nat_aS> same mistake that Chris Sawyer made with Locomotion
20:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you can only build american-style grid cities
20:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> not european style "grown" cities
20:06:58 <Nat_aS> it's funny, because the engine was PERFECT for RCT
20:08:29 <Alberth> nah, I had heaps of trouble understanding where the roller coaster tracks went to
20:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i never played RCT or Locomotion
20:09:45 <Alberth> and problems while digging deep holes :)
20:14:11 <Nat_aS> Because of the isometric depth perception problem?
20:15:29 <Nat_aS> >Will Wright has stated in an interview that the game does not actually reticulate splines when generating terrain, darn
20:15:33 <Alberth> clicking tiles below the lower edge of the hole :)
20:15:51 <Nat_aS> anyways, how does SC2K work then?
20:16:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24111 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use Colour more instead of manually bitstuffing
20:17:28 <supermop> the holes were problematic in Locomotion
20:17:45 <supermop> that game really need a way to 'shave' off layers
20:18:05 <supermop> ie pin the view and/or cursor to a certain depth
20:18:28 <drac_boy> was locomotion really like rct as in you had to lay each rail piece individually btw?
20:18:45 <drac_boy> oic, good thing I never ever thought about considering that game at all :-/
20:18:50 <Nat_aS> click next click next, click turn, click straight, click next
20:19:02 <Nat_aS> it works in RCT, and in fact is essential for it
20:19:06 <Nat_aS> but here, it's just tedious
20:19:21 <supermop> every so often i fire it up to play with modelling the subway junctions and interlockings near me, which are quite complex
20:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> people have actually been requesting that this method be implemented in openttd
20:20:15 <drac_boy> Nat_aS yeah rct is about ever-twisting layout in a small space. thats in contrast to building a long straight railroad I imagine
20:20:52 <drac_boy> Nat_aS heh was that to me or them? :)
20:21:49 <Nat_aS> yeah, RCT's engine was designed for a TTD sequel, BUT it evolved in a diffrent direction
20:22:02 <Nat_aS> Locomotion was a halfassed attempt to bring it full circle.
20:25:43 <drac_boy> funny thing is I always build a miniature railroad circle every time my park started getting larger. usually either from the enterance to back of park but sometimes adding side located station
20:25:53 <drac_boy> never did use the monorail too much
20:28:05 <Fori> I've actually bought locomotion ^^
20:28:57 <drac_boy> weird thing is I had something I wanted to tell you but I can't remember what it was now heh :-/
20:29:35 <Fori> Wanna check my server setup out?
20:29:58 <drac_boy> I don't have 1.2.0 so I doubt it, thanks still
20:30:42 <Fori> We just launched a game in 1850 :D
20:30:49 <Fori> With some expensive settings.
20:30:53 * oskari89 thinks that power stations should have more functions in OpenTTD generally
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20:31:44 <oskari89> And i think that power lines should be built to nearest towns.
20:32:08 <oskari89> And there could be electrical substation.
20:32:47 <oskari89> More delivery -> More power -> More town population boost :P
20:33:11 <drac_boy> oskari89 well normally I would had questioned you but with NewObjects and the scenarioeditor-only flag its plausible to build the power lines as long as they are neutrally owned
20:33:58 <drac_boy> as for power...I think there used to be a server that required you to unload coal+food to grow the town then the game was over as soon as one player reached the population goal set for that server
20:34:14 <oskari89> Did some grf had powerlines or pylons?
20:34:18 <drac_boy> if its still running and you can find that game, you could check out how its done
20:34:29 <oskari89> Do i recall right that it was something from SAC?
20:34:33 <Nat_aS> the fact that the trains in RTC don't have junctions is half the reason Locomo sucks
20:36:47 <drac_boy> hm well I got a wagon question as usual...
20:37:58 <drac_boy> should transporter wagon (with a loaded standard gauge wagon atop) be same runcost as the normal narrow gauge version or perhaps a little higher?
20:39:13 <Nat_aS> conversions should always be less efficient than what they are emulating.
20:39:21 <Nat_aS> If I understand what is being done.
20:39:34 <Nat_aS> this is a train car that carries another car on top?
20:41:49 <drac_boy> hm sorry, insert a space after the colon :)
20:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> works right here
20:54:25 <drac_boy> still want find more real metre wagons examples but think that part of the table is almost done aside to no prices
20:56:32 * drac_boy tried to track down chile railroads but somehow never got far :|
21:02:37 <drac_boy> if anyone wanted to know, you can actually fire a small firebox on hides ... just expect it to stink badly for a few days!
21:02:56 * drac_boy finds some of these older stories a bit amusing
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21:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge freight wagons are either on lines that are dedicated to one cargo only, or they're standard gauge wagons on special carriage cars like in the picture
21:27:41 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not so sure about that
21:29:13 <drac_boy> actually sometimes it helps when its an industry that only has NG connection but otherwise could want to see one or few loads that are out of the NG network's reach. if clearance allows its cheaper to ship the SG wagon as-is over NG rather than finding the terminal space and labour to transload the cargo itself
21:29:29 <Rubidium> mostly because I saw one on TV not long ago
21:29:30 <drac_boy> I've noticed that switzerland does this a lot with log loads
21:32:06 <drac_boy> actually...one thing I find quite interesting about RhB is that a lot of the times the schedule is for passengers but they'll often add a freight wagon or few to its tail
21:32:45 <drac_boy> even that new Allegro emu set hauling a few extra coaches plus liquid or timber loads isn't too unusual occurance as well
21:35:29 <Rubidium> hmm, is metre gauge considered narrow?
21:36:11 <drac_boy> its hmm I think like close to 3ft 6inch or was it 3inch. either way its pretty much 1000m
21:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> was that ever doubted?
21:37:24 <Rubidium> 23:26 < Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge freight wagons are either on lines that are dedicated to one cargo only, or they're standard gauge wagons on special carriage cars like in the picture
21:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i meant that a line dedicated to one cargo, like a mine, will have special wagons for this cargo
21:38:42 <Rubidium> as I'm showing narrow gauge wagons on a non-single cargo only line without the special carriage
21:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> my sentence is missing a "usually" inbetween
21:39:55 <drac_boy> btw I can't remember where I saw it but theres something a bit different coming in a few years...
21:41:34 <drac_boy> JR wants to create wagons (they look a bit like oversized single-deck car carrier wagons) to transport NG freight wagons over the shinkansen lines
21:42:03 <drac_boy> would be interesting, the lines wouldn't be only purely for passengers alone anymore
21:42:19 <Rubidium> then they would only be transporting the cargo at night
21:42:42 <Rubidium> as it's not as if there's much capacity left on the line, especially for slow cargo trains
21:43:24 <drac_boy> I don't think it would be slow, probably only a few wagons behind at least two or more powerful locomotives. but still yeah nights might be more likely
21:44:45 <drac_boy> I think the idea did have merits tho. the NG lines are like only up to 160 (or was it lower for freights than passengers?) while the shinkansen can go over 300. lot of time saving there
21:45:14 <Rubidium> unless it's for the Hakodate - Aomori stretch
21:45:32 <Rubidium> then it'd make some sense
21:45:48 <NGC3982> kentucky is a state, kentucky is a state
21:46:41 <drac_boy> anyway Rubidium I kind of need to go, need to pick up supper and a bit of tomorrow's food. I'll be back later tonight tho
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21:51:35 <Rubidium> bah... typical Japanese website links. They're linking to (re)moved pages
21:55:35 <NGC3982> surfing the japanese web is a bit odd.
21:55:50 <NGC3982> lots of material is linked to non-existant media
21:57:50 <Sacro> I don't get glue records :(
22:03:26 <NGC3982> Rubidium: sweet jesus.
22:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <NGC3982> kentucky is a state, kentucky is a state <- is that like "titanic is real"?
22:03:53 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: sure is!
22:04:13 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: that titanic thingy is horrible though, and i have a more horrible note about it.
22:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: it's on the internet. it must be fake.
22:04:44 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i work with telemarketing, and most of your employees are born in the middle of the 1990's. that is, most of them are barely 18.
22:04:57 <NGC3982> since i saw that picture i pasted earlier today, i asked around on the office about this.
22:05:38 <NGC3982> and a serious discussion started amongst the toddlers about the fact that "the movie might be based on a real event"
22:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> just wait a generation or so, they'll ask "hitler was real?"
22:05:56 <NGC3982> almost no-one actually connected it to a real event.
22:06:06 <NGC3982> i was about to jump the window.
22:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and three or four generations it'll be "bin laten was real?"
22:06:29 <MNIM> eddi: there are people thinking that already now
22:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: yes. but not in the sense of "i thought it was just a movie"
22:07:33 <MNIM> I wouldn't be too sure of that >.>
22:07:42 <NGC3982> sure, some things are hard to keep track on. for instance, i dont feel that kinds should have the common knowledge on, well, let's say: sigmund freud
22:08:11 <NGC3982> even though there is a new movie on the subject.
22:15:00 *** kaenkky has joined #openttd
22:16:39 <Djohaal> not having common knowledge on sigmund freud makes you a ignorant person if you ask me
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22:32:54 <nicfer> how many sets have trains that support autorefit?
22:34:34 <V453000> ogfx+ and ukrs2? At least two
22:34:37 <V453000> dont know if some other
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22:48:50 * drac_boy wonders if Rubidium want a bagel I had left over
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23:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's either an escape code or a really malformed smilie :p
23:55:35 <drac_boy> yeah I'm not sure which one it is :)
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