IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-09
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00:14:01 * drac_boy wonders what that was
00:16:09 <jmlane> Hello. Quick signals noob question: any way to signal a single railway to allow two-way traffic and simultaneousily use regularly spaced signals to allow more than one train going the same direction along that segment of single rail?
00:17:41 <drac_boy> don't think you can get both at same time...you'll have to use crossover each few tiles or just go with one-way
00:19:50 <jmlane> Thanks drac_boy. I was starting to suspect it wasn't possible. I haven't played TTD much before, so I'm exploring different rail patterns and signal combinations.
00:23:44 <drac_boy> jmlane one of the problem is that real dispatchers can block the whole line for one-way working one hour then flip it other way next hour .. but the game has no idea of whatever a "dispatcher" is so all signals are more or less just dumb ones
00:23:52 <drac_boy> except for the programmable signals to a certain degree :)
00:24:08 <drac_boy> thats just my own thought on it tho
00:25:49 <michi_cc> Use timetables to simulate the dispatcher :)
00:26:12 <drac_boy> theres that too yeah :p
00:26:17 <jmlane> michi_cc: Thanks. That is helpful. What I want to do is not possible based on my understanding of the signals in game.
00:26:33 * drac_boy usually has a lot of single-line and occassional one-way double tracks tho
00:27:11 <drac_boy> so I just need a lot of half-operator/half-flagman if I was running it for real tho :p
00:27:28 <jmlane> drac_boy: Ah, right. I was wondering if the timetable functionality would be sufficient to simulate dispatching on certain lines. I haven't tried it nor looked at that part of the manual yet.
00:28:00 <drac_boy> they may not exactly like my one or two 'primary' freight/passenger stations I build at times tho...would be a lot of flaggings to do every single day :)
00:28:58 * drac_boy wonders if I could hire michi_cc
00:29:52 <michi_cc> jmlane: Yes, there's no way to have more than two trains on a section of single-track railway with signals alone. The closest approximation would be alternating single-track pieces with passing loops. Timetables would work, too, but be prepared f or a lot of pain :)
00:30:06 <michi_cc> drac_boy: If you pay enough
00:31:13 <drac_boy> michi_cc the reason that I thought most of them would be operator/flagman because at the times trains aren't working they can just deal with the freight sheets sitting by the ticket window :)
00:31:28 <drac_boy> but who knows what kind of railroad I might had managed for real tho
00:33:33 <drac_boy> michi_cc I don't know what any related rail regulations might had been like in other countries but in the 1940-1960s some of the short railroads in usa could be managed with no specific work positions, the few people there just simply agreed to whoever would handle whatever everyday
00:35:18 <drac_boy> could make for interesting things when someone calls in ill...eg fireman not showing up? just tell the shop mechanic to fire the train
00:40:29 <jnxa> Heh. A train crashes when it actually sinks in seawater..
00:41:05 <drac_boy> what else did you think would happen jnxa? :p
00:42:28 <jnxa> well, that it would drown rather than crash :)
00:42:48 <drac_boy> drown means its useless means its as good as broken for good = crash
00:44:04 <drac_boy> hmm that was a weird long line I typed heh
00:51:09 * drac_boy sends jnxa down a wrong line which leads off into the other direction apparently
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02:39:55 <sortkrudt> Hi. Is there any sub-way or tunnel for boats in this game yet?
03:35:59 * Rhamphoryncus pokes his head back in
03:36:41 <Rhamphoryncus> You could have two-way on one track if you carefully prevented trains from entering it
03:36:53 <Rhamphoryncus> which means a logic train
03:37:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Which requires at least one extra track the whole length ;)
03:40:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. You could have a logic train at each end *and* one that follows each caravan through to trigger that end
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06:05:23 <leonardo001> ahhh...openttd 32bpp?
06:06:35 <leonardo001> no me funcionan los .tar...
06:07:22 <Rubidium> I have no idea what you're trying to ask
06:08:23 <leonardo001> no working ottd 32 bpp...
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06:17:47 <planetmaker> there's virutally no working 32bpp NewGRF
06:18:02 <planetmaker> the old tars won't work
06:20:26 <planetmaker> oh, he left already
06:28:32 <Nat_aS> wait, did somebody sugest a boat tunnel a while back?
06:28:50 * Nat_aS is against the idea of canal bridges despite them existing in real life.
06:31:46 <planetmaker> canal bridges do exist in OpenTTD for 5(?) years
06:33:10 <Nat_aS> and now somebody is suggesting canal tunnels.
06:33:14 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r13481 trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp (2008-06-11 21:37:36 UTC)
06:33:15 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Codechange: add 'B' keyboard shortcut to build aqueduct (planetmaker)
06:33:56 <planetmaker> yes. It's a valid idea, though I'm not sure about that one. You don't have to use a feature if you don't like it
06:35:03 <planetmaker> Adding that shortcut was my first OpenTTD patch ;-)
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07:04:53 <Rubidium> canal tunnels are a big nightmare w.r.t. sprite sizes and hiding the sprite at the right moment
07:12:06 <Nat_aS> heck, most ships should not even be allowed onto aquaducts
07:12:15 <Nat_aS> and some not even in Cannals
07:14:42 <Nat_aS> Canal bridges IRL are for small barges.
07:14:54 <Alberth> oh, right, as weight is not relevent :)
07:14:54 <planetmaker> then make use of the canal speed fraction and ocean speed fraction for ships to discourage canal travel
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07:15:44 <planetmaker> but you should fish some fish with andythenorth there, Nat_aS ;-)
07:16:20 <Nat_aS> I was just talking about how cannal bridges are unrealistic because the ones that exist IRL are for barges not oceangoing ships
07:16:30 <Nat_aS> and how cannal tunnels are even more retarded
07:16:57 <andythenorth> noticed that depots are 1tile?
07:17:02 <andythenorth> and that it never rains?
07:17:14 <andythenorth> reality is not our best guide
07:17:58 <andythenorth> when designing, it helps to imagine reality as one n-dimensional matrix
07:18:12 <planetmaker> simply don't use it. No need to get excited that no-one should use it, really :-)
07:18:14 <andythenorth> then apply the equivalent of transforms to that matrix
07:18:24 <andythenorth> resulting in 'game world'
07:18:31 <Nat_aS> if you want to connect two bodies of water, spend a ton of money and use the landscaping tool
07:18:58 <andythenorth> because a canal isn't created by digging a channel :P
07:19:08 <planetmaker> actually I might even ban such person on my server on grounds of damaging the map excessively
07:19:11 <andythenorth> why do we even have canals?
07:19:58 <planetmaker> or you might find the landscaping too expensive anyway ;-)
07:20:06 <Nat_aS> we have canals because the game does not support water on higher levels
07:20:12 <Nat_aS> or rather it didn't untill we added rivers
07:20:14 * andythenorth needs to go somewhere with actual...wifi signal
07:20:39 <planetmaker> hiding in the bomb-proof cellar? :-P
07:20:58 <Nat_aS> but seeing as how most places you would want to send a boat are at sea level anyways, it's more realistic to just dig a ditch
07:21:06 <Nat_aS> even if that's expensive
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07:21:18 <Nat_aS> aren't you suposed to be rolling in money after 10 years?
07:21:29 <Nat_aS> (YOu may however make the local authority want to kill you)
07:21:46 <planetmaker> Nat_aS: you are. But if terraforming one tile border costs you 50 million?
07:22:02 <Nat_aS> why bother connecting ships to things when you can just make a ship and a truck
07:22:06 <planetmaker> and a single vehicle has an annual revenue of 20k?
07:22:14 <Nat_aS> ships work best with feeders anyways because it regularizes the flow
07:22:28 <Nat_aS> which is important when chaining industries
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07:32:43 <Alberth> so many andys this morning! hi hi
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08:02:43 * andythenorth also has crazy ideas for NewGRF / NewNewGRF
08:04:31 <andythenorth> force vehicles to cache which sprites (set of sprites) they are currently use, and only allow that to changed with cbs
08:05:04 <andythenorth> so basically instead of a graphics branch executed every tick, have a 'set graphics' cb, which has various triggers
08:05:34 <andythenorth> I need to kick around the idea a bit first
08:05:42 <andythenorth> it works for all cases I can think of except:
08:05:53 <andythenorth> - the new 'turn corners smoothly' behaviour
08:06:40 * Alberth considers the latter a big hack
08:06:47 <andythenorth> if e.g. animation is handling simply as a trigger on the 'set graphics' cb, we gain nothing, and turn newgrf world upside down pointlessly
08:07:21 <andythenorth> as every vehicle would just end up animated, and still doing calculations on every tick :P
08:07:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: might fail with sprite offsets / adv. action1
08:08:34 <planetmaker> afaik should works for vehicles, too :-)
08:10:13 <andythenorth> hmm...animation could be handled
08:10:24 <andythenorth> instead of caching one set of action 1 sprites, cache n
08:10:38 <andythenorth> which are cycled through in a specific order, at a specific frame rate
08:10:49 <andythenorth> this would make speed-dependent animation impossible though
08:11:52 <andythenorth> but GetImage would then have to loop all the cached sprites to determine a sprite size for current frame?
08:12:00 <andythenorth> maybe not, current frame would be known
08:13:05 * andythenorth wonders if frame rate could be changed on a per-tick basis
08:13:23 <andythenorth> but that would then re-open the can of worms wrt checking 1 bazilion vars
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08:14:14 <andythenorth> we'd know whether frame rate had changed
08:14:25 <andythenorth> so sprite sizes could be cached
08:14:35 <andythenorth> and cache could be invalidated if frame rate changed
08:15:03 <andythenorth> or we could just ditch animation :P
08:16:03 <andythenorth> if 'turn corners smoothly' is desirable, could that be provided by ottd, rather than a monster set of newgrf checks?
08:16:25 <andythenorth> action 1 flag for 'grf provides intermediate turning sprites'
08:17:31 <andythenorth> basically my proposal is that graphics become more static and less dynamic
08:17:34 <planetmaker> maybe that's the more sound idea. Though I'd rather go for "provides N sprites per set" where N = 8*n
08:17:57 <planetmaker> hm... maybe not 8*n
08:18:31 * Alberth supports the idea to define more vehicle sprites instead
08:18:36 <andythenorth> I see no gain from current approaches to common graphics problems, e.g. 'show cargo x in vehicle z by checking vars for type of lead vehicle, age of vehicle, cargo class'
08:18:51 <andythenorth> ^ why does that need calculating on *every* tick
08:19:18 <andythenorth> cache it when the vehicle leaves station, depot etc
08:19:23 <Alberth> the problem is deciding you don't need to compute it every tick
08:19:45 <andythenorth> you don't need to calculate capacity on every tick, so we don't
08:19:50 <planetmaker> well, really, post it in that FS entry
08:19:57 <andythenorth> nor other intrinsic properties
08:20:11 <planetmaker> we don't calculate that every tick
08:20:20 <andythenorth> I'm making the case that 'current graphics' is an intrinsic property of vehicle that only changes occasionally
08:20:21 <planetmaker> callbacks are called... when they're called
08:20:34 <planetmaker> the current spriteset. yes
08:21:15 <planetmaker> I'm not entirely sure how much caching is done already, though.
08:21:54 <andythenorth> we don't see graphic glitches with failure to invalidate caches, so either there is none, or it's very very good
08:22:11 <andythenorth> I should write it up better, dumping in this irc log is not helpful :P
08:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics must be updated (almost) every time the vehicle moves, because of things like curvature info may change
08:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics are thus only reasonably cached while the game is paused
08:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (only the realsprite is currently cached, so it must be re-evaluated on vehicle turning anyway, even if not using callbacks)
08:32:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt curvature - if this didn't do complex varaction 2 things, do you think it would be any faster?
08:32:26 <andythenorth> or is it simply the number of vehicles and therefore checks that is significant?
08:32:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you mean
08:34:59 <andythenorth> is the 'large number of calculations' issue caused by:
08:35:03 <andythenorth> - 'newgrf vehicles run complex varaction 2 chains to resolve graphics'
08:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> alone that you call a callback is slow, what's being calculated there doesn't matter that much (vaguely paraphrasing michi_cc)
08:35:10 <andythenorth> or by 'every vehicle must be checked'
08:35:52 <andythenorth> reading the FS, I'm unclear
08:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not quite awake enough yet
08:36:17 <andythenorth> it seems that not resolving sprites for every vehicle would be useful, but TB also implies it's mostly an issue caused by newgrf
08:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> sure it's "caused" by newgrf, in the sense that if you want to change it now, you have to remove some functionality
08:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you can certainly design it in a way that it isn't needed
08:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but that results in a different set of features, and thus breaks backwards compatibility
08:38:45 <andythenorth> from frosch comments, it seems there could be multiple attacks on the problem
08:38:56 <andythenorth> breaking backwards compatibility I don't care
08:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but other people developing grfs might
08:39:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I know :)
08:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the specs say all valid GRFs will keep their functionality
08:40:07 <Pikka> trucks trucks trucks trucks trucks
08:40:25 <Pikka> when come back bring trucks
08:40:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: no no no no theoretical discussions about newgrf format instead :P
08:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you introduce a completely new newgrf-version)
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08:41:43 <andythenorth> what if a newgrf v9 or so provided authors with the option to use more efficient methods?
08:41:54 * andythenorth thinks probably still better to fix ottd :P
08:42:07 <Pikka> more efficient than what?
08:42:28 <andythenorth> more efficient than running a varaction 2 chain on every vehicle every tick, whether it is anywhere near a viewport or not
08:42:38 <andythenorth> underlying this is basically an argument for vehicle-local storage :P
08:43:31 <Pikka> vehicle-local storage is all very well
08:43:31 <andythenorth> maybe andythenorth should go and draw trucks
08:44:15 <Pikka> I don't see how being anywhere near a viewport is an issue though
08:44:24 <andythenorth> no that's completely separate issue indeed
08:44:56 <andythenorth> and I have no idea how caching is applied to varaction 2, sprite drawing etc
08:45:03 <andythenorth> so I might be talking out of my arse anyway :P
08:45:34 <Pikka> you still have to go through the action 2 chain even if you're not drawing the vehicle, because of callbacks
08:46:09 <andythenorth> my guess is that 'fetch value from storage' might be slightly faster than 'compute loads of stuff from vars'
08:46:09 <Pikka> also, if my machine is processing vehicles differently from your machine because we're looking at different parts of the map, that sounds like desync central :)
08:47:03 <andythenorth> that would be....undesirable ;)
08:47:45 <Pikka> let's make the maximum map size 256*, problem solved ;)
08:47:58 <andythenorth> I suggested 512*
08:48:02 <andythenorth> but that was over-ruled :(
08:48:10 <andythenorth> I also think limit number of vehicles :P
08:48:48 <andythenorth> my trucks are multiprocessor aware
08:48:54 <andythenorth> and indeed much faster as a result
08:49:43 <andythenorth> why can't we have vehicle local storage? performance reasons?
08:50:15 <Pikka> everything's performance reasons
08:50:18 <andythenorth> or because of property-checking loops between neighbouring vehicles?
08:50:30 <Pikka> mostly that no-one can be bothered performing the necessary work ;)
08:50:52 <andythenorth> vehicle A checks storage on vehicle B
08:51:00 <andythenorth> vehicle B then changes value
08:51:57 <andythenorth> consist storage?
08:52:01 <andythenorth> probably even worse :P
08:52:11 <Pikka> there's no such thing as a consist
08:52:36 <andythenorth> lead vehicle storage?
08:52:44 <andythenorth> probably even worse
08:52:48 <Alberth> consists should have been invented ages ago
08:53:22 <andythenorth> consists as templates, or consists as 'lead vehicle + trailing vehicles' ? :P
08:53:41 <Alberth> let's start with the latter, shall we? :)
08:53:42 <andythenorth> storage on consist templates is an even more bonkers idea
08:54:19 <andythenorth> storage on consist templates could handle all this livery for groups crap and other such things
08:54:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: why should consists be invented?
08:55:06 <andythenorth> Pikka: trucks need better wheels
08:55:11 <andythenorth> and some cabs :P
08:55:27 <Pikka> I'll draw some trucks soon (tm)
08:55:27 <Alberth> aaarggghhhh!! brain overloaaadd .... must .. ignore .. consists .... templa
08:55:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: imagine the possibilities :)
08:55:56 <Pikka> more 19th century buildings first
08:56:28 <andythenorth> I don't want to discuss that :(
08:56:41 <andythenorth> also it's been suggested to wait for new map array
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08:57:00 <Pikka> when does the map array?
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08:57:20 <andythenorth> my point exactly
08:57:20 <Pikka> Alberth: new map array!
08:57:36 <Pikka> bugger consists, we need newroads :)
08:57:42 <andythenorth> without the new map array (or map layers), we don't get enough roadtypes to keep Eddi|zuHause happy ;)
08:57:44 <Pikka> where we're going we will need roads
08:57:58 <andythenorth> my solution to combining roadtypes would be clunky tbh
08:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i remember that quote differently :;p
08:58:11 <andythenorth> we'd need types like 'tarmac with trolleybus and tram'
08:58:20 <Alberth> there exist experiments with new map arrays, but I don't know their state
08:58:30 <oskari89> Dynamic train composition could be very nice feature to have, at least i think so, there could be feeder traffic to/from larger trains :)
08:58:36 <Pikka> andythenorth: let's not layer
08:58:43 <Pikka> let's different roadtypes
08:59:02 <andythenorth> crossing becomes an arse iirc
08:59:09 <andythenorth> I did have it all solved in my head though
08:59:15 <andythenorth> the pictures were beautiful :P
08:59:31 <Pikka> didn't I propose allowing a seperate roadtype in each quarter of the tile? ;)
08:59:57 <andythenorth> much was proposed :)
08:59:58 <Alberth> oh, nice colours you could make
09:00:21 <andythenorth> map bits not enough we have
09:00:36 <Pikka> nonsense, there's heaps
09:00:37 <andythenorth> we have silly hysterical raisins to account for, like roadworks counter
09:00:43 <andythenorth> clearly important :P
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09:01:02 <Pikka> well roadworks counter can go away :)
09:01:30 <andythenorth> no no, everything must be supported, for ever
09:01:37 <andythenorth> because roadworks are so much gameplay fun :P
09:02:11 <Alberth> oskari89: we ahve the big ufo for that :)
09:02:18 <Pikka> andythenorth: first thing we do is drop trams as a seperate layer
09:02:55 <andythenorth> in the graphics drawing, or in the bits?
09:03:21 <andythenorth> can't see why it would be needed
09:03:27 <andythenorth> it's just property of the type
09:04:03 <andythenorth> does that reduce number of owner bits needed? :O
09:04:21 <andythenorth> so I can't build my tram track along your road?
09:04:31 <andythenorth> but I can cross it
09:04:32 * oskari89 is fitting FIRS cargoes to Finnish Trainset wagons
09:04:57 <andythenorth> oskari89: you'll be pleased when I change all FIRS cargos again then ;)
09:05:04 <andythenorth> oh wait, I promised not to do that :P
09:05:23 <oskari89> Please do not change ID's.
09:05:39 <andythenorth> oskari89: if you do the support based on label you'll be fine
09:06:12 <andythenorth> and don't rely on classes if you want refits or graphics for specific cargos
09:06:16 <oskari89> I'm not literally coding, just fitting them on tracking tables.
09:06:27 <andythenorth> Pikka: so how many bits needed?
09:06:42 <Pikka> ownership and updating is a tricky thing, yes :)
09:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your multiline-timestamps make the logs very hard to read
09:11:36 <andythenorth> sorry, stupid paste format
09:11:40 <Pikka> how do rail crossings decide what to use? is it highest ID? I guess we could use the same for roadtypes...
09:11:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there's not much of use there anyway
09:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: what do you mean? there's only ever one railtype on one tile, so no difficulty to choose anything
09:13:13 <andythenorth> Pikka: didn't read the source, but seems highest ID wins
09:13:31 <Pikka> yes eddi, but if you build one line across another
09:13:38 <Pikka> say, 3rd rail across normal rail
09:13:51 <Pikka> the intersection becomes 3rd rail regardless of which was built first
09:14:10 <oskari89> Well, Finnish Railset has 8 types of level crossing overlays..
09:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe it's the compatibility/powered half-order deciding this
09:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if A is compatible and powered on B, then B wins
09:14:47 <Pikka> if I build a "dual power" track across a 3rd rail track, the crossing ends up 3rd rail only ;)
09:14:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if not, then conversion fails
09:15:07 <Pikka> anyway, we could do something similar for roadtypes, have some way of working out connections
09:15:21 <andythenorth> peter1138 worked all this out once
09:15:22 <Pikka> like in the given example of a dirt road and a highway, the highway should win based on some criteria
09:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> highways shouldn't allow crossing :)
09:15:49 <Pikka> a dirt road and a tarmac road then :P
09:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (needs special onramp/offramp objects)
09:16:43 <oskari89> What about sweden, it has level crossing on highways ^^
09:18:29 <andythenorth> Pikka: I had a thing about type 1 and type 2 in layer order
09:18:45 <andythenorth> and some types would always try to be drawn higher, others lower
09:18:50 <Pikka> yeah, but I think we should drop type 1 and type 2
09:19:19 <oskari89> Do diagonal roads along with roadtypes :)
09:19:30 <Pikka> it just needs more thinking about ownership when it comes to overbuilding
09:19:47 <andythenorth> roadtype property for 'prefers to be higher' ?
09:20:11 * andythenorth can't see any way for ottd to determine which should be drawn higher without author setting a prop
09:20:20 <andythenorth> e.g. use compatibility or such
09:20:41 <Pikka> yes, we could have an ordering property
09:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean that all types are known by the GRF
09:21:07 <Pikka> with some recommended values so roadtypes can work together, not that I imagine having more than one roadtype grf loaded at once is a good idea
09:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "not good idea" != "won't happen"
09:21:49 <andythenorth> so let's overlook that for now :P
09:21:50 <Pikka> but it should still work across grfs :)
09:21:52 <andythenorth> it is what it is
09:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: relying on that will almost certainly bite you in the maintainability/extensibility ass
09:22:23 <Pikka> I'm not relying on it eddi
09:22:35 <Pikka> I'm saying that it should be fine either way
09:23:26 <andythenorth> just set two bits 'prefers high', 'prefers low'
09:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i think the railtype compatibility check has some problems when the vehicles are powered on both railtypes
09:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: then the new one seems to win
09:23:55 <Pikka> andy, what is "high" and "low"?
09:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: it doesn't search for a "lowest common multiple"
09:24:29 <andythenorth> 'prefers to be drawn above other types' 'prefers to be drawn below other types'
09:24:37 <andythenorth> makes no reference to what they other type(s) are
09:24:42 <Pikka> nothing's being drawn above or below anything
09:24:45 <Pikka> there's one roadtype per type
09:25:00 <andythenorth> how are crossings handled?
09:25:12 <Pikka> one roadtype "wins" at crossings
09:25:21 <Pikka> ie, the one with the highest value in the prop :)
09:26:16 <Pikka> this property, I suppose, could also be used for overbuilding other people's roads
09:26:26 <Pikka> you can overbuild only with a roadtype with a higher value than the existing one
09:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: in your case, it checks whether all vehicles for "universal" are powered on "3rd rail" [true], and all vehicles for "3rd rail" are powered on "universal" [true], but it ignores the fact that "electric" are not compatible anymore (that is too far removed for the check)
09:26:38 <Pikka> and the ownership does not change...
09:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it may be solvable
09:28:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: let's try some cases
09:28:44 <Rubidium> and what if the new road has a significantly higher maintenance cost? Should the original owner pay for that?
09:28:52 <andythenorth> you have vanilla tarmac road, overbuildable by anything
09:28:58 <andythenorth> I build a farm track across it
09:29:18 <andythenorth> what happens wrt overbuilding being allowed, graphics, vehicle compatibility etc?
09:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: need owner for each road bit :)
09:29:54 <Pikka> presumably, tarmac road will have a higher rating than farm track, so where they cross the junction will be tarmac road
09:30:18 <andythenorth> and when I'm building, can I just extend-drag my farm track across your road?
09:30:26 <andythenorth> or do I have to switch type for the junction tile?
09:30:44 <Pikka> you should be able to drag across it, and it will automatically build the junction
09:30:54 <andythenorth> and I get charged the cost of tarmac? or farm track?
09:31:16 <Pikka> tarmac I guess. that's a minor issue though.
09:31:29 <Pikka> Rubidium: yes, the original owner pays the increased maintanance cost
09:31:39 <andythenorth> and if my vehicle is 10mph on farm track, but 50mph on tarmac, does it accelerate on this tile?
09:32:06 <andythenorth> so if there is a grid of roads e.g. | | | | | |
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09:32:22 <andythenorth> I could build a cheap farm track and get better performance at your cost?
09:32:42 <andythenorth> in fact, possibly griefing you in MP with extra costs
09:32:51 * andythenorth doesn't think this is automatically bad
09:33:05 <Pikka> there's no extra cost in this case, I already have the tarmac road tiles
09:33:15 <Pikka> you building farm track across it doesn't give me more tarmac tiles
09:33:18 <andythenorth> k so the extra couple of bits make no difference
09:33:44 <Pikka> yes, it's griefable. but multiplayer is already griefable
09:33:53 <Pikka> especially when it comes to roads
09:34:00 <andythenorth> and non-griefing games might be very dull
09:34:04 <andythenorth> life is griefable :P
09:34:13 <Pikka> for example, if you build a road connecting to my road, I can already remove the junction where they connect
09:34:47 <andythenorth> roadworks are built-in griefing? :P
09:34:52 <oskari89> I think if crossing type is user-defined, that would be nice.
09:34:59 <Pikka> if I have a network of dirt roads and you go and upgrade them all to super-duper highways and blow my costs out of the water
09:35:05 <Pikka> the solution is to not play with you any more :)
09:35:24 <andythenorth> the solution is to always make sure you're the server admin :P
09:35:38 <andythenorth> praps that's why there appears to be more servers than players
09:35:58 <andythenorth> so you've solved it?
09:36:07 <andythenorth> can I build tram tracks along your superhighway?
09:36:28 <Pikka> highways tend not to have tram tracks
09:36:39 <andythenorth> so 'tram' is a type property, not a bit
09:36:55 <Pikka> you can build tarmac+tram along my tarmac
09:36:57 <andythenorth> which means 'pipeline' could be a type property? :| :P
09:37:41 <andythenorth> also 'underground metro'
09:38:18 <andythenorth> the build menu is going to be sucky
09:38:23 <andythenorth> but it's identical to railtypes
09:38:31 <Pikka> I guess one shortcoming is that if you're building tram tracks on my roads and you make a mistake, you have to ask me to remove it...
09:38:43 <andythenorth> interesting case
09:39:54 <andythenorth> store a transaction history per tile, allow rollback
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09:40:36 <andythenorth> how do I do elevated trams?
09:41:02 <andythenorth> they drive through bridges
09:41:05 <andythenorth> I looked into it :P
09:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> subway/high rail may be better implemented with custom bridges
09:41:50 <Pikka> roadtypes isn't going to allow proper elevated metros and pipelines any more than railtypes has allowed proper underground subways
09:42:11 * andythenorth was planning improper ;)
09:42:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: + lots to that
09:42:21 <Pikka> you can improper all you like
09:42:32 <Pikka> but it's still going to be, basically, vehicles driving along a road
09:43:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: subway by: (1) cut channel fill with rail (2) build bridge for road over top (3) hope town fills in slopes with buildings
09:43:14 <andythenorth> stations are sucky though
09:43:57 <andythenorth> there's a station set somewhere with buildings above the station
09:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you cannot build the road bridge along the rail/tram
09:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only across
09:44:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you can if the rail turns out before the bridge ends
09:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and even if you could build it across, the town won't build houses next to the road
09:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, yes, but the turn takes so much space that it's useless
09:46:56 <andythenorth> and you can't create road junctions
09:47:00 <andythenorth> that's the real killer
09:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... we don't have transitivity on the powered relation
09:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes a lcm difficult
09:51:01 <frosch123> awesome, fs#5143 was broken between ottd 0.3 and ottd 0.4
09:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so much for people playing toyland :p
09:51:53 <Alberth> So I played all those toyland games with the wrong graphics :p
09:52:04 <frosch123> that likely means that the fix will break ogfx
09:52:26 <frosch123> (i only played toyland with ogfx)
09:52:44 <V453000> toyland with ttd graphics is for real me
09:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the difference
09:53:12 <Pikka> the "glass" bottoms on the towers, presumably
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10:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so can we _make_ the powered relation transitive? (if A is powered on B, and B is powered on C, then A is also powered on C)
10:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, no, that breaks the universal rail case even more
10:03:53 <andythenorth> what is the universal rail case?
10:06:19 * Pikka creates "Some Other Road Types Definition" page on pikkawiki
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10:07:34 <drac_boy> hi fori :) how're you?
10:07:58 * andythenorth creates 3/8 long truck body plan
10:08:10 <Fori> How's your translation going on? ^^
10:08:33 <Fori> Cast your vote ECS or FIRS?
10:08:39 <drac_boy> fori hmm...theres a few words I could use alternative suggestions on otherwise its going along ok...some new data too
10:09:00 <Fori> I dunno which one to use.
10:09:23 <Pikka> silly andythenorth, 3/8 isn't "long" ;)
10:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 3/8 is currently the shortest i allow in my scheme :)
10:09:55 <drac_boy> fori hmm well I would have to say firs ... ecs has a few weird things (not counting the difficult steel mill)
10:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> 16/8 the longest
10:09:59 <Fori> Wow... Am I just in one chatroom with the creators of FIRS and Aviators Aircraft?
10:10:01 <frosch123> tron broke it in a _huge_ coding style commit
10:10:09 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by tron :: r3181 /trunk (63 files in 5 dirs) (2005-11-14 19:48:04 UTC)
10:10:11 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Indentation
10:10:12 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Whitespace
10:10:13 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -DeMorgan's Law
10:10:31 <Fori> Just take a THANKS of mine for your work :)
10:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so much for non-logic-changing commits :)
10:11:06 <Fori> Thanks drac, I'll try out FIRS then.
10:11:58 <Fori> Which trainsets do you use drac? Or anyone? 2cc has simply too many...^^
10:12:22 <drac_boy> any of you think that for a generic set I should consider adding some kind of commuter-related wagon or two? lets say the newest passenger wagon seats 60 then I probably could make something that'll 'seats' I dunno maybe 110 and come with a lower top speed as a result?
10:13:20 * drac_boy agrees that 2cc is a bit too unwieldy especially with many too-alike trains
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10:14:45 <Fori> It doesnt work with OpenTTD 1.1.5
10:14:54 <Fori> At least NewGRF manager says that.
10:15:18 <Pikka> but there's no reason not to update to 1.2.0RC4
10:15:25 <andythenorth> but nobody coded them :(
10:15:38 <Fori> There is an eels addon andy ^^
10:15:50 <Pikka> I checked someone's savegame for them the other day and they were using eels.
10:16:21 <drac_boy> fori I guess this is to our own but I don't like ukrs or ukrs2 too much game-wise
10:16:32 <drac_boy> but the list of locomotives given (from pikkawiki) is nice on other hand
10:17:02 <Pikka> it doesn't have enough 120-passenger coaches for some people :)
10:17:13 <drac_boy> pikka heh it wasn't that :)
10:17:47 <Fori> Can you recommend another then, drac?
10:17:52 <andythenorth> there is an eels grf
10:18:06 <drac_boy> pikka you want know why or not that bothered?
10:18:06 <Fori> Pikka? Is aviators balanced for 1/4?
10:18:10 <andythenorth> I suspect it's not FIRS compatible :O
10:18:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24107 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5143] (r3181): Glass-sprite of bubble-generator was not drawn anymore for completely constructed tiles.
10:18:15 <Rubidium> frosch123: yeah, that's tron's style
10:18:23 <drac_boy> fori hm well do you want to actually know what I like? :)
10:18:37 <Rubidium> also committing such stuff at moments you can't really use it
10:18:59 <Pikka> Fori; the running costs will be reduced at 1/4, but it's still not really recommended. There are plenty of aircraft in av8 which travel at less than 200mph, and they're very slow at 1/4. :)
10:19:18 <Rubidium> out of the blue after someone else's patchset was reviewed, but before everything was committed
10:19:19 <andythenorth> there is a cargo graphic for eels too :)
10:19:23 <Fori> So what would you say? Which setting it's best balanced for?
10:19:23 <Rubidium> ofcourse breaking the patch set
10:19:26 <drac_boy> pikka its the train capacity in relation to length.. I'm just the kind to run short or medium train once in a while and ukrs just never works well because it seem to have to be long semi-frequent trains on the contrast which kinda throws the mostly-single rail routes off balance
10:20:10 <Fori> Do you like the Word airliners set? Since it's like the heir of your set, isnt it?
10:20:22 <Pikka> capacity/length in UKRS2 is fairly similar to the vanilla vehicles, drac_boy
10:21:57 <drac_boy> fori for temperate it would be dbsetxl+germanrv+newships ... or japset+newrv+newships ... arctic is a bit of indecision yet but its arcticset(different from dbsetxl)+germanrv+newships or oldcanset+3.5lv+newships
10:22:42 <Fori> Btw I responded to your whisper.
10:22:51 <Fori> Are those compatible with FIRS /EC?
10:23:05 <drac_boy> pikka yeah well I have a 96 tonnes coal mine and a long spinely (spelling?) route to the powerstation which I usually only have two trains each made up of one branch locomotive and just 3-5 wagons
10:23:36 <drac_boy> with ukrs it has to become a mildly heavy train with 8+ tiles long platforms so, I guess to our own gameplay styles and habits :)
10:24:02 <drac_boy> fori dbsetxl has a newcargo patch grf so it should work I recall
10:24:10 <drac_boy> and canset/japset already supports it I think
10:24:29 <Fori> Are all of those available through Bananasß
10:24:48 <drac_boy> I have no idea, I always use the real source which at least gives me the readme to reference to :P
10:25:11 <Fori> It's just that it's more complicated to deliver it to friends ^^
10:25:36 <drac_boy> well fori I think its easier especially with the extra files given but to our own
10:25:54 <drac_boy> I'm not planning to allow banana uploading for a while but I'm not too certain yet, we'll just have to see in a few months
10:26:06 <Fori> Oh, wait, which is your set?
10:26:41 <andythenorth> small truck body
10:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the closest i got to a solution: currently, you check "powered(A,B) or powered(B,A)". this should be extended to "powered(*,A) subset powered(*,B)"
10:27:45 <drac_boy> andythenorth if thats meant to be a light 2-axle truck I don't see anything wrong with the sprites :)
10:28:09 <andythenorth> most trucks are only about 5/8 long
10:28:16 <drac_boy> just insert some more length in the middle to get a 3-axle truck version
10:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (in case both powered(A,B) and powered(B,A))
10:28:25 <drac_boy> and maybe just a little bit longer again to make it a trailer instead
10:28:28 <andythenorth> that is the 3-axle version ;)
10:28:38 <drac_boy> andythenorth umm its a bit too short then :)
10:28:49 <drac_boy> that amount of grain looks too easy on 2 axles even for wooden bridges
10:28:52 <andythenorth> trucks are small
10:29:20 <drac_boy> hmm might be better if I saw it with the body drawn with it then perhaps?
10:31:45 <drac_boy> but andythenorth the only one minor complain I could suggest would be to have a thin tarp covering the load in the bottommost sprites row. unless they don't always do that over there?
10:33:17 <Fori> 1.2.0 supports different newGRF folders in Data, does it?
10:33:52 <drac_boy> fori its always had, the only difference is setting it in the newgrf options before starting a new map :)
10:34:34 <Fori> To be honest I've been putting em in content download all the time...
10:34:35 <drac_boy> andythenorth hmm now that I see the cab I wonder if you drew the boxes a little too high height-wise? I dunno what kind of sizing you want tho so I'll leave that to you
10:35:13 <andythenorth> I'll teach the pixel generator to draw 3px high bodies :)
10:35:27 <Pikka> I'm not sure it needs two rear axles either :)
10:35:28 <drac_boy> andythenorth this being from someone who always see dump body being almost same height as a daycab (or non-sleeper) cab roof
10:35:50 <Fori> Can I turn off that last two zoom steps?
10:35:59 <drac_boy> pikka heh I had thought it should had been 2-axle for the small box size. go figure :)
10:37:43 <andythenorth> wheels are too big
10:37:49 <andythenorth> if we're sizing relative to UKRS :P
10:38:02 <andythenorth> wheels should be 1px, not 3px :P
10:39:14 <drac_boy> btw pikka I found something yesterday, uk had a 2ft5inch gauge railway that actually had a few transporters. probably was the only one of its kind in uk I imagine
10:39:32 <Pikka> well, it's all the look, accurate scaling is not required
10:41:07 * andythenorth is unconvinced by smaller wheels
10:41:26 <andythenorth> that's a small day cab, not a sleeper btw
10:41:34 <andythenorth> so the cab should look relatively small
10:41:38 <Pikka> I think the horizontal views need a hub and a tyre
10:41:44 <Pikka> the diagonal views can be all tyre
10:44:08 <drac_boy> hm I keep thinking about this for the second day now, what does anyone think of enabling transporters ingame? it could trade off the slower top speed for higher capacity compared to native wagons
10:45:14 <andythenorth> drac_boy: real transporters?
10:45:19 <Pikka> I'ma draw some of them :)
10:45:23 <andythenorth> drac_boy vehicles in vehicles?
10:45:38 <TinoDidriksen> Star Trek transporters.
10:45:49 * andythenorth generates tank body
10:46:13 <andythenorth> I know what you mean ;)
10:46:19 <andythenorth> I just wonder how you would implement them
10:46:52 <drac_boy> well just draw it as always having the wagon on top all the times :)
10:47:18 <andythenorth> 'real' transporters is same problem class as vehicle ferries etc
10:47:25 <drac_boy> and imagine that the standard gauge railroad (that is if you don't have any in first place) is 'just a few kilometers off the map'
10:49:03 <drac_boy> andythenorth at least boats exist as foot ferries so I don't care too much for them :)
10:49:33 <oskari89> CSDSet had 40 px long wagons, are they hard to code?
10:56:02 <andythenorth> I might teach pixa to composite the truck and the body
10:56:17 <andythenorth> then [pikka] can redraw the trucks later :P
10:57:25 <andythenorth> for [reasons] all truck cabs are multiples of 4px
11:03:27 <Pikka> let's get rid of them :D
11:04:37 <andythenorth> they are a gameplay PITA
11:04:49 <andythenorth> also...sometimes a tram seems to turn on a non-U anyway?
11:05:00 <Pikka> and getting rid of them makes the spec easier ;)
11:05:02 * drac_boy prefers trams to rvs
11:05:21 <andythenorth> the behaviour seems non-deterministic although it must be :P
11:05:54 <andythenorth> also...in towns....finding a tile for the u-turn often isn't that easy
11:06:02 <andythenorth> so the space gain is...not much
11:06:18 * andythenorth waits for eddi's "state machine" auto-responder to kick in ;)
11:10:11 <andythenorth> Pikka: got wiki yet?
11:10:58 * andythenorth suspects Pikka actually wants roadtypes for nefarious space-based reasons
11:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> trams need proper multi-tile turning loops!!
11:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and there are trams that don't need u-turns
11:13:44 <drac_boy> the problem is the scale.. eg one tile should be at least 3-4 lanes wide and have more sidewalk
11:13:45 <Pikka> but the closest you can get to that now is to build a depot and have it drive in and out :)
11:13:54 <drac_boy> but as the limit is...you only get 2 lanes with just a bit of sidewalk but not much
11:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> simcity-style avenues (with and without tram in the middle)
11:15:03 <andythenorth> allow roadtypes to specify paths for vehicles?
11:15:07 <andythenorth> sounds like newports :P
11:15:23 <V453000> the scale realism is probably the most ridiculous of all discussions :D
11:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: where did you read "scale" here?
11:16:03 <drac_boy> V453000 heh its why I'm doing everything in a bit different scale (which also means new buildings to match the vehicles too..meh) for my set
11:16:31 <andythenorth> drac_boy: are you doing On30 or something?
11:17:01 <drac_boy> andythenorth I dunno, I mean it could be just about anything from 1:1 to 1:400 in the game :p
11:18:03 <drac_boy> although I guess that if you wanted to duplicate my set onto an actual model layout I would think your most inexpensive option could be HOm
11:19:57 <Pikka> simple, it's mostly railtypes :)
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11:23:28 <andythenorth> should we make a reference grf?
11:23:50 * andythenorth looks at the new props
11:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: how does your roadtype flags mix with newgrf road stations?
11:24:03 <drac_boy> hmm this reminds me of something else..
11:24:14 <andythenorth> one roadtype simplifies catenary drawing too
11:24:19 <Pikka> I forgot to put the road stations in. :)
11:24:45 <drac_boy> if your trains need specific track type would it be better to bundle it within the same grf or not so much?
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11:26:53 <Fori> Some dev of WAS in here ? ^^
11:28:22 * andythenorth ponders animated catenary for roadtypes
11:28:58 * Fori is looking for some good airliners set because high doesn't like the two futuristic planes of Pikka....
11:29:03 <andythenorth> so HEQS bulldozer might prefer to avoid roads with a minimum speed limits :P
11:29:04 <V453000> ropeways with monkeys!
11:29:16 <Pikka> yes. no bulldozers on the highway
11:29:28 <Pikka> unless it's the only way
11:29:40 <Pikka> it will just add a big number to the pathfinder penalty perhaps.
11:29:41 <drac_boy> andythenorth take programmable rail signals and redraw them as 'obvious' road signposts instead .... and there, problem solved :)
11:29:55 <andythenorth> min. speed limit is better for gameplay than highly restricted compatibility
11:29:55 <drac_boy> I would had program it as "speed under 40 no go"
11:30:06 <andythenorth> if compatibility is too limited, crossings are a nightmare
11:30:20 <Pikka> build a bridge and get over it, I say
11:30:32 <Pikka> there, added loading bays to the action 3
11:30:51 <Fori> Will openTTD update newGRFs when a new release is on bananas?
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11:35:31 <drac_boy> so track into grf or not?
11:40:25 <Pikka> so what do you think andy, eddi, what's missing? :)
11:41:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: needs some thinking...
11:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: certainly the tractive effort multiplier should be different for trams and roadvehicles
11:44:14 <Pikka> I wouldn't have thought tramtracks + a roadtype with significantly off TE would be likely?
11:44:29 <Pikka> also, trams are roadvehicles. ;)
11:44:49 * drac_boy treats it as rails :)
11:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: anyway, the most obvious critique point of one-roadtype-per-tile is crossings. how do you want to represent a tram-with-road crossing a normal road, without drawing excessive tram bits?
11:46:41 <Pikka> in the same we we represent an electrified railway crossing a non-electrified railway without drawing excessive electrification bits
11:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: that's a big hack
11:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i know. i wrote it...
11:47:26 <drac_boy> eddi and what if it came to three? I mean a road-shared tramrail crossing standard rails :p
11:47:36 <Pikka> well, I was thinking more 3rd rail
11:47:40 <Pikka> where we don't even try
11:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> because it was implemented before railtypes
11:48:06 <drac_boy> pikka actually if you need a 3rd rail road crossing, just ask japan. they do have at least two existances of that
11:48:25 <drac_boy> bit complex thing...the third rail basically fold out of way unenergized then the gates opens to let cars through
11:48:29 <Pikka> but if we'd waited until it was resolved before implementing railtypes, we wouldn't have railtypes
11:48:42 <drac_boy> but at least for the game you don't have to draw that animation
11:48:58 <Fori> Is it designed that if I enable the HEQS I still have a lot of vanilla vehicles?
11:49:44 * drac_boy runs a 300 tonnes tram at 49km/h into fori?
11:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: the only way i can see one-roadtype-per-tile working is with multi-layer tiles like michi_cc's patch. but then you're back to the layering troubles again
11:50:55 <drac_boy> eddi the only one thing I currently hate about one-railtype-per-tile in infra sharing atm is....when you have little space to work with and the neighbouring diagonal track is of a different type from yours :-s oh well no simple solution for that one I guess
11:50:57 <Pikka> performance issues are too much if we query the roadtype on neighbouring tiles?
11:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: same discussion as with railtypes
11:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i think it's not, but your decision space may explode
11:51:58 <drac_boy> at least I never cared for it in my usual singleplay games (which is the patch instead heh) because I know its always only one rail instead of having to share a second one with someone else :)
11:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but imho the 3rd rail should be part of the trackbase, not the track. which may make the decision chain more difficult
11:54:00 <drac_boy> eddi don't ask about LUL trains..you'll be talking about a 4th rail :p
11:59:58 <andythenorth> just draw excessive tram tracks :P
12:00:04 <andythenorth> sure, it will look ugly
12:01:30 <andythenorth> but it solves 2 problems
12:01:38 <andythenorth> (1) no worries about layering
12:01:59 <andythenorth> (2) it makes roadtypes possible, instead of a theoretical discussion waiting for n other things
12:02:34 <andythenorth> "we are not Steve Jobs"
12:04:26 <andythenorth> if we get multi-layer tiles, use those bits to cache what's on neighbouring tiles, then write varaction 2 for drawing xyz
12:04:36 <andythenorth> that's 'enhancement'
12:04:48 <Pikka> multi-layer tiles are for sissies
12:04:59 <andythenorth> tile-based storage :P
12:05:12 <andythenorth> everything would be better if it had storage
12:05:31 <andythenorth> what does that roadworks counter bit do?
12:09:13 * andythenorth wonders if we can do something ugly, like set 'neighbouring tile has compatible type' in spare bits
12:09:49 <Pikka> gotta test for the whole roadtype D;
12:09:54 <andythenorth> if there's only one type per tile, do we have a surfe it of bits?
12:11:40 * andythenorth wonders if we can test for the whole roadtype
12:12:12 <andythenorth> invalidate neighbouring tiles' caches when changing the roadtype on a tile
12:12:13 <Pikka> when do you update the cache?
12:12:26 <Pikka> that would probably be the way to go
12:12:39 <andythenorth> it will have some odd cases I think
12:14:30 <andythenorth> hmmm...the alternative of letting newgrf author control what is drawn by querying neighbouring tiles is mildly terrifying
12:14:33 <andythenorth> for several reasons
12:15:02 <andythenorth> do you get the type label?
12:15:17 <andythenorth> and do you have a big tree of 'if red then blue' type stuff?
12:15:38 <Pikka> I'm thinking IDs from a rail type table
12:15:58 <Pikka> it's perfectly managable.
12:16:06 * andythenorth supposes worse things happen
12:17:29 <andythenorth> is actually important
12:17:51 <Pikka> well, there's an above the snowline var...?
12:18:25 <Pikka> you want a callback for TE multiplier I suppose?
12:18:33 <andythenorth> prop 15 is a prop?
12:19:00 <andythenorth> and a bit for 'has a snowplough been by recently' :P
12:19:08 <andythenorth> reuse the roadworks counter for that
12:20:21 <andythenorth> 'vehicle is leaving tile'
12:20:37 <andythenorth> return values: 0, 1
12:20:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth why snowplough seriously? :p
12:20:52 <andythenorth> sets the roadworks counter :P
12:21:04 <andythenorth> drac_boy I have to explain? :o
12:21:12 <andythenorth> it's not obviously just neat?
12:21:52 <drac_boy> andythenorth explain that to someone who just wants to run one or few timber trucks to the forest in arctic map in August ;)
12:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: callbacks for roadtypes are probably crazy
12:22:21 <andythenorth> if it's on your road, you go slower
12:22:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: of course :)
12:23:18 <andythenorth> with a busy tile, the bits might flip on / off a lot :P
12:24:49 <andythenorth> roadworks uses effect vehicles
12:24:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth if you seriously want to introduce snow onto roads then at least introduce lower speed and slight higher runcost with having chains on :P
12:25:34 * andythenorth can't figure out how the roadworks counter actually works
12:25:38 <andythenorth> IncreaseRoadWorksCounter looks relevant
12:26:55 <drac_boy> andythenorth I had always wondered how to enable a limited few weather effect to rails without making it too complex tho..and so far I dunno yet
12:27:24 <drac_boy> would be interesting for certain locomotives that have very light traction axle weights .. they'll have a bit of problem with rain-heavy months
12:27:36 <drac_boy> and thats just one of the few 'issues' a player might have seen
12:28:03 * andythenorth might be having a significant brain failure
12:28:17 <drac_boy> at least that uk signal sim (forgot the name, never played it much) actually has weathers factored into its timetabling
12:28:26 <drac_boy> eg if its raining a lot the trains would be slower to accerlate
12:28:32 <andythenorth> there are roadworks *bits*
12:28:36 <andythenorth> not a roadworks bit
12:28:40 <Alberth> big boss Mr. T.Ycoon does not care about rain
12:29:03 <drac_boy> alberth he would when he finds out that he ordered the wrong kind of locomotives to work the line when they kept running late :)
12:29:04 * andythenorth was a little bit 'wtf' about how 0-15 can be stored in one bit
12:29:20 <andythenorth> but we have the whole of m4
12:29:25 <Alberth> drac_boy: he fires the huy doing the planning :p
12:29:33 <andythenorth> surely m4 is open to creative abuse for roadtypes....
12:29:36 <drac_boy> alberth then he's still back to square one :p
12:30:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: sounds like a british motorway :p
12:30:11 * andythenorth will be on the m4 shortly
12:30:20 * andythenorth is right next to the m4 right now
12:30:38 <andythenorth> and there will be roadworks
12:30:48 <drac_boy> alberth and to be honest many of the real europe rails are clueless these years. I mean france used to have a few working snowplow wagons and at least one rotary but in the last few years they only had one or two plows left and the rotary all scrapped. and they wonder why a lot of passenger trains were trapped stuck :)
12:32:07 <Alberth> oh, the problem in the canal tunnel was much more fun, did you know snow melts in a tunnel ? :D
12:32:07 <drac_boy> even eurotunnel's quote of "unprecident weather" was quickly shot down by reasonably-thinking news sources... there really was nothing unprecident about it, the only thing unprecident was the lack of train maintenance :p
12:33:28 <drac_boy> and its not just that but one of the thing that I've noticed a lot was that when a new electric locomotive replaces an old 1960-1980s one train reliability always seem to be worser during bad weathers even during the summer
12:33:44 <drac_boy> the older one had more stern steel in them is one way to put it :)
12:35:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24108 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp ai/ai_instance.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#5142]: When starting GS or AI, always use the settings of the game, not the new-game settings.
12:36:12 <andythenorth> is it a bad idea to have a cb that runs every time a (lead) vehicle leaves a tile?
12:37:21 <peter1138> or maybe it's only when the railtype changes
12:38:31 <andythenorth> it's probably cb36?
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12:39:07 <andythenorth> my idea was a cb for the tile, rather than the vehicle
12:39:35 <andythenorth> it allows resetting of (road) m4 bits only
12:39:53 <andythenorth> or something like that
12:42:17 <andythenorth> abusable for whatever creative purposes authors think of, with no rules, and no attempt at labels or any other crap
12:42:25 * andythenorth would use it for snow :P
12:43:45 <andythenorth> it would be pretty
12:44:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: idea...draw snow over the tram tracks. Graphics problem solved :P
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12:45:12 <andythenorth> tram tracks are very small
12:45:18 <andythenorth> so just don't draw them :P
12:48:22 <Pikka> there you are. too easy :)
12:51:59 <Pikka> I've got some things the wrong way round, now I look at it
12:52:09 <Pikka> but that's basically what it would look like. not too much trouble at all
12:52:47 <Pikka> and a maximum of 4 branches, so hopefully not too slow if the vars are cached.
12:53:23 <Pikka> and if people don't go mad and coat the map with tramtrack intersections :)
12:53:37 <andythenorth> surely that's massively cache-friendly?
12:53:52 <frosch123> cache for roadtypes? haha :p won't hapen
12:54:33 <frosch123> there are no caches for stuff that belongs to tiles
12:55:03 <frosch123> anyway, you do not need any cache for stuff that is only needed for drawing
12:55:09 <andythenorth> also...caching is invalid if the VA 2 chain contains bonkers madness
12:55:18 <andythenorth> like date checks
12:55:29 <andythenorth> did I mention snow?
12:55:38 <Pikka> snow business like show business
12:55:47 <andythenorth> Pikka: on a 2048x2048 map, does this kill my battery?
12:55:56 <andythenorth> there are a lot of roadcrossings in a game....
12:56:11 <Pikka> you would only use this for tram tracks
12:56:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: do houses kill your game?
12:56:22 <Pikka> using it for every road crossing would be silly
12:57:38 <andythenorth> Pikka: 'would' <- enforced how? :)
12:58:05 <andythenorth> what if i use it on every tile to choose to draw, for example, animated billboards 17 tiles long :P
12:58:37 <Pikka> enforced by your common sense :)
12:58:39 <frosch123> there are also people reaching the 64k limit for objects :p
12:58:43 <Pikka> I may have made a terrible mistake...
12:59:06 * andythenorth has driving to do
12:59:18 <andythenorth> maybe with more trucks
12:59:38 * Pikka adds the proposed variables to the spec
13:08:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24109 /trunk/src/debug.cpp: -Fix (r24099): Warning from not using size_t to store the return value of strlen().
13:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "road layers" suggestion: [for several roadtypes on a tile] each roadtype consists of these layers [ground tile], road base, road surface, road overlay, pavement, catenary. of each layer, all roadtypes will be drawn in a random but deterministic order, so if it is not transparent, one roadtype will "win" across the whole map. standard road will have transparent road overlay and catenary, standard tram will have transparent road surface
13:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so for order of (road,tram) the drawing order will be: ground, road base, tram base, road surface, (tram surface), (road overlay), tram overlay, (road catenary), tram catenary
13:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> drawing order may be defined by some priority value, or the order of action3
13:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhere in there the pavement is missing
13:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "base" and "overlay" will be composed of several sprites consisting of the center and the 4 road bits
13:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> center being one of "straigt", "curve"(x4), "t-cross"(x4), "cross"
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13:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant "surface", not "base"
13:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "pipelines" could then consist of "base" and "catenary" only
13:55:21 <Pikka> mine's certainly simpler :)
13:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but i fear it's not flexible enough
13:55:54 <Pikka> you shouldn't be trying to make pipelines with it
13:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i don't. but it's a neat thing if it can be done
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14:00:00 <Pikka> also, I'm still not sure "several roadtypes on a tile" makes sense.
14:00:12 <Pikka> it still just seems like you're making a special case for trams
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14:00:51 <Pikka> which I'm not sure is desirable from a set design or gameplay point of view, and I also think is holding back anyone getting stuck in and actually creating a patch
14:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "simple" isn't good enough if you remove existing functionality in the process
14:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and i also said previously: if you separate things strictly between "road"-types and "tram"-types, then you have a problem fitting in trolleybus
14:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make trolleybus tram-like, but then you cannot combine both on a tile (which may be realistic, though)
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14:06:08 <Pikka> how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec
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14:06:57 <andythenorth> that was...rainy
14:06:57 <Pikka> "how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec"
14:07:39 <andythenorth> oh yeah, backwards compatibility :P
14:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> another problem with making trolleybus tram-like is enforcing a road underneath
14:08:16 <Pikka> eddi: trolleybuses are silly vehicles which make even littler sense in TTD than they did in the real world
14:08:53 <Pikka> also, with my spec there's no such thing as "tram-like", so I don't really understand what you're driving at
14:09:37 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
14:09:46 <__ln__> well they are being used in the real world
14:09:50 <Zuu> though you got a tram-like behaviour bit (no overtake + U-turn)
14:10:19 <Pikka> so don't set that for trolleybuses?
14:11:14 * andythenorth misses why trolleybus is a problem?
14:11:18 <andythenorth> it's just a bus, with power
14:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> trolleybusses can overtake, but they'll have some trouble with U-turns :)
14:11:42 <Pikka> anyway, the existing trams are a problem
14:11:53 <andythenorth> roadtypes can provide power right?
14:12:23 <andythenorth> so where's the issue?
14:12:26 <andythenorth> it's an electric bus
14:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but difference between "powered" and "compatible" is quite useless if you have no consists
14:12:49 <Pikka> I guess we can lose one then. :P
14:12:58 * andythenorth knows that Eddi|zuHause is nearly always right, but what's the issue?
14:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the issues are lots and widespread :)
14:13:37 <andythenorth> (1) specific to trolleybus
14:14:01 <Pikka> trolleybuses can overtake but not u-turn, apparently.
14:14:52 <andythenorth> as in, 'they need a specific movement path'?
14:14:54 * NGC3982 is in the mood for openttd
14:14:56 <Pikka> also, trains can't magically turn around in stations, and ships can't pile up on top of each other at docks. I suggest we all stop playing openttd until it can perfectly realistically model the behaviour of every vehicle which has ever existed. :)
14:15:16 <NGC3982> it has been a few months since
14:15:21 <andythenorth> ships can't drive through each in RL
14:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: one step at a time :p
14:15:46 <Pikka> but let's not have the first step be trolleybuses
14:16:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you're trying to prevent future discussions along lines 'of hysterical reasons' which point to this spec, here?
14:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: my aim is pointing out future use-cases, and how the spec should be generic enough to cover them
14:17:56 <Zuu> Well, there are trolleybusses (and trams) with batteries, so assume OpenTTD trolleybusses got some small batteries that allow them to make U-turns. :-)
14:18:07 <Pikka> okay, so provide seperate flags for "can overtake" and "can u-turn", problem sorted. we can't make it generic enough to cover /everything/
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14:18:23 <Pikka> shall we try and incorporate vehicles which can travel cross-country?
14:18:34 <andythenorth> and also amphibious
14:18:42 <andythenorth> and flying cares
14:19:18 * andythenorth would be happier if newgrf wasn't held sacred
14:19:36 <andythenorth> i.e. rather than 'we will never break newgrf' <- which isn't true anyway
14:19:46 <andythenorth> we say 'we might break newgrf under conditions xyz'
14:19:49 <Pikka> it's not newgrf which is the problem this time
14:19:56 <Pikka> it's the legacy tram system
14:20:16 <andythenorth> and we can't lose that because....?
14:20:24 <andythenorth> [game doesn't ship with trams anyway]
14:21:30 <Zuu> possible only 0.6 as 0.7 got bananas.
14:22:03 <andythenorth> they break too :P
14:22:24 <Pikka> andy, you going to buy one of those flying cars?
14:22:44 <andythenorth> when we introduce $2 per newgrf on bananas
14:22:57 <Zuu> But it neegs an airport to take off?
14:23:08 <Pikka> $279,000... you could buy a much better plane and a much better car and still have $200,000 left :)
14:23:20 <Zuu> So it could be a part of the vehicles containing vehicles feature.
14:23:24 <andythenorth> eh who cares, we'll be rich on newgrf earnings
14:23:36 <andythenorth> get roadtypes in quick, we can sell the roads grf
14:23:49 <andythenorth> also, we can charge for 'updated' grfs when trunk breaks them
14:23:51 <Pikka> yes, but first the trams issue
14:23:53 <andythenorth> so trunk should break them a lot
14:23:57 <andythenorth> so the trams issue is?
14:24:06 <andythenorth> in plain english, using small words...
14:24:25 <Pikka> replacing the existing, own-layer hacky trams with roadtype trams
14:25:07 <Pikka> I guess we could retain the existing trams, and have a grf function to disable them...
14:26:02 <NGC3982> how do i get a train to wait in a depot for x days?
14:26:13 <NGC3982> i cant seem to get it right in the timetables
14:26:15 <Zuu> you wait x days and then click to start it :-)
14:26:23 <Zuu> eg, not possible to do automated.
14:26:42 <andythenorth> the tram issue is movement paths? Or graphics? Or type compatibility? or which?
14:26:52 <Zuu> you could have a station nearby with the only puprose of having trains staying there for x days if you want.
14:27:28 <Zuu> there is a no load-no unload order.
14:27:46 <Pikka> andythenorth: at the moment, there are two layers of "road", "road" and "tram"
14:28:06 <Pikka> we/I am proposing a spec with one layer of road.
14:28:59 <Pikka> there is no way to translate the former to the latter when loading old savegames.
14:29:22 <Pikka> or at least no way that wouldn't be an inordinate amount of work :)
14:29:34 <Pikka> for no benefit except converting old savegames
14:29:47 <andythenorth> so those bits would just be lost
14:30:01 <NGC3982> Zuu: i see. ill see what i can do :).
14:30:09 <Pikka> so you load an old savegame and end up with trams just sitting in the middle of fields
14:30:32 * andythenorth has horrible idea
14:30:37 <andythenorth> make road equivalent to tram
14:30:45 <andythenorth> then you get a savegame where trams can go on any road :P
14:31:07 <Pikka> although at the moment you can build tramtrack without road
14:31:19 <andythenorth> convert that to road
14:31:31 <NGC3982> Zuu: although, i think i will abandon the idea. http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png <- this is my setup. i thought id make the trains wait a bit on the return trip to the industry. though, i noticed that it might have bad implications on the industry rating.
14:31:47 <andythenorth> Pikka: it's bonkers
14:32:05 <Pikka> it's better than anything I've come up with so far :)
14:32:08 <andythenorth> there is an alternative, which is to have ottd provide some types by default
14:32:15 <andythenorth> e.g. road, tram, road+tram
14:32:26 <andythenorth> then set all tiles appropriately when converting savegame
14:32:30 <Pikka> this is the "inordinate amount of work" I was talking about :)
14:32:41 <andythenorth> then look at the action 0 props for newgrf vehicles to determine compatibility :|
14:34:05 <andythenorth> or just break the badger
14:34:06 <Pikka> "tram" is currently a flag
14:34:16 <Pikka> there's no proper roadtype property
14:34:18 * andythenorth wonders if there are other things it is desirable to break
14:34:37 <NGC3982> trow your tv out the window
14:34:44 <andythenorth> OpenTTD 2.0 could be the 'lots of things changed' edition
14:34:45 <Pikka> so I think logically, just turning them into road vehicles and replacing all tram tracks with road would be the right thing to do :)
14:34:47 <NGC3982> that might lead to some manly satisfaction.
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14:36:13 * andythenorth thinks trading massive legacy breakage against a set of awesome features would be very worthwhile
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14:36:35 <Pikka> but let's keep the breakage it to a minimum ;)
14:36:51 * andythenorth is used to python
14:37:06 <andythenorth> where hunting down legacy versions of python to run [some app] is common
14:37:09 <Fori> What's openTTD coded in ?
14:37:38 <NGC3982> cheeseburgers and mirc script.
14:37:50 <Fori> Thanks for THAT kind response.
14:38:22 <Fori> I don't know why people are like that... But I think I won't understand it ever.
14:38:40 <andythenorth> openttd is (mostly) C++
14:39:15 <andythenorth> afaik, the AI is squirrel
14:39:23 <NGC3982> Fori: im sorry, did i offend you?
14:39:24 <andythenorth> and there might be some actual C somewhere
14:39:36 * andythenorth is at the limits of his knowledge describing that much :P
14:39:56 <Fori> NGC, nah, not really. I just get fucked up if people answer to honest question like that one with so stupid things.
14:40:06 <Fori> Happens in a lot of IRC channel when people come in they don't know.
14:40:24 <Fori> And I simply don't get the point of it.
14:40:48 <NGC3982> Fori: i see. it was of course none of my intentions to be such a bastard :).
14:41:18 <Fori> It's nothing with your answer specific. It's rather a general thing.
14:41:42 * andythenorth thinks we should also break some newgrf disabling stuff
14:41:49 <Fori> I'd rather have you telling me "I know but you could google".
14:42:08 <Fori> Andy? Are you using any aircraft GRF?
14:42:30 <andythenorth> Fori: I don't really play OpenTTD
14:42:39 <Fori> Oh, so you only code for it? ^^
14:42:49 <Fori> Or paint sprites, or w/e? ^^
14:43:03 <Fori> That's what I ment, sorry.
14:43:06 <andythenorth> I play about once a year
14:43:19 <andythenorth> rest of the time I make feature requests here
14:43:20 <Fori> Really? Where comes the ingame feedback from then? ^^
14:43:51 <Fori> NGC? Have you any recommendations of an aircraft GRF?
14:44:31 <andythenorth> AV8 and GeneralAV8ion
14:45:09 <andythenorth> otherwise PlaneSet or however it's called
14:45:11 <Fori> Yeah, right. I've been using Pikka's aircraft since the first time I ever played openTTD
14:45:12 <NGC3982> Fori: well, i havent really tried as many of them as one should, though - PikkaBird's 'Aviator Aircraft Set' is really well made.
14:45:14 <andythenorth> but AV8 is better
14:45:33 <NGC3982> (AV8 is the same grf).
14:45:33 <Fori> It's balanced for 1/1, right?
14:47:32 <NGC3982> hm, i wonder; im using a basic two-train circle system to get coal from a to b. as the trains move along with time, i notice that the original rating of 76% drops to 68%, without any changes in the trains movement.
14:48:56 <Fori> There's no train waiting to load? No statue?
14:49:13 <NGC3982> no, not really, and no. no statue :).
14:49:29 <NGC3982> does a town statue make a difference?
14:50:02 <Fori> I just noticed that yesterday.
14:50:11 <Fori> Looked it up in the game mechanics page of the Wiki
14:50:49 <Fori> What's that timetable stuff? Where does it come from?
14:51:32 <NGC3982> timetables can be used to make ..well, timetables for the trains. you find it in the orders windows, upper right.
14:51:44 <NGC3982> Fori: ill read up on that statue thingy.
14:52:05 <NGC3982> @A transport company may build a statue in honour of its owner. This will increase its ratings at stations in the area, and looks impressive to passers by.@
14:52:44 <NGC3982> i have two missions to complete, then. one is to change to faster trains, and the other to build a statue.
14:53:41 <NGC3982> the problem is that the the adjacent town doesnt even have that opportunity yet.
14:53:55 <andythenorth> Pikka: ship a default roadtypes grf with openttd, provides 'road, road+tram, tram'
14:54:11 <andythenorth> extend compatibility to vehicles that don't have roadtype props set
14:54:18 <andythenorth> based on type flag
14:54:31 <andythenorth> convert when loading savegame
14:54:43 <andythenorth> no backwards compatibility for the save
14:55:05 <andythenorth> everything carries on working same as now, out of the box
14:58:01 <Fori> NGC: The problem should be your cash.
14:58:06 <Fori> That the option is not there.
14:58:38 <Alberth> more precisely, the lack of cash :p
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14:59:17 <NGC3982> well, i cant decide what brings more money.
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14:59:40 <NGC3982> i changed the trains and made this
15:00:09 <NGC3982> i noted a huge improvement in train profit, but a lower rating (and a small dip in coal production).
15:03:05 <NGC3982> ah, this was a fruitful experiment
15:03:16 <NGC3982> adding a train to the setup didnt affect the rating at all.
15:03:20 *** LordPixaII is now known as Pixa
15:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> tiny map is tiny
15:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> adding/removing trains by itself doesn't change rating
15:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "always a train at the station" improves rating
15:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and trains newer than 2 years improve rating
15:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and trains faster than 80km/h improve rating
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15:09:16 <Fori> Do you actually use that timetable stuff NGC? I never did..^^
15:10:33 <Fori> Btw NGC, you got some Windows updates waiting.
15:10:35 <NGC3982> this is actually the first time i find use of it
15:10:53 <NGC3982> im as far from an openttd pro as the googolplex is from infinity.
15:11:18 <Fori> I ain't pro. I don't even know if I'm good.
15:12:28 <NGC3982> i have been playing it for years, and i still dont understand most of its functions
15:13:06 <NGC3982> openttd is the starship enterprise of the game universe. it reveals new characters, even in the last season.
15:14:41 <Fori> Well. I'm afk for a bit playing a bit of "Agricola".
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15:17:12 <Zuu> NGC3982: To improve your rating at Grenfingfield Mines, remove the waiting station and have the train load longer in Grenfingfield Mines instead.
15:19:49 <Zuu> In general you shouldn't need to use a waiting station. It was just the answer to your question on how to make a train wait for X days at some place.
15:23:23 <Pikka> andy: we could do that I suppose
15:23:45 <NGC3982> Zuu: it worked briliantly. thank you :)
15:26:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: or just break savegames :)
15:26:32 <andythenorth> range of options then
15:28:40 <Pikka> perhaps we should try and get the spec working, then worry about this? :)
15:32:44 <oskari89> Finnish Railset tracking tables now have FIRS cargoes :)
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15:35:04 * NGC3982 read "finnish rallyset"
15:36:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: patchy patchy
15:36:31 <andythenorth> do you plan to use any kind of repo or anything?
15:37:02 <andythenorth> there's a very old roadtypes repo on the devzone
15:37:27 <Pikka> would we be better off starting from scratch?
15:37:35 <andythenorth> that one is way behind trunk
15:37:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker: any objection if I delete current roadtypes repo? Can't imagine it's any use
15:38:38 <andythenorth> for reviewing and stuff we probably have to use a queue
15:38:50 * andythenorth is not the best at this :P
15:40:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: last time I tried this I was using mercurial with the mq extension for patch queues
15:40:39 <andythenorth> if I'd learnt it properly it would have made my life easier
15:41:09 <andythenorth> but at the time I might have been better just making small commits + diffing from them
15:41:35 <Pikka> even so, you've had a lot more experience at it than I have, andythenorth
15:41:43 <andythenorth> doing something this big without many small patches is probably insane
15:41:47 <andythenorth> we'll never get reviewed
15:42:10 <Pikka> we'll have to use undue influence
15:42:16 <andythenorth> anyone care to advise the foolhardy?
15:42:25 <andythenorth> Pikka: have you got mercurial?
15:42:29 <Pikka> what small patches can we break it into, anyway? it's an all or nothing kind of deal
15:42:34 <andythenorth> or I could learn git, but that way dragons lie
15:43:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: there might be some obvious steps: savegame handling, newgrf loading, drawing to screen etc
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15:43:46 <andythenorth> but I'm way out of my depth, surrounded by sharks :P
15:44:04 <andythenorth> last time I managed to move one map bit, then got stuck handling savegames
15:44:10 <Digitalfox> Hi Guys, been a couple of years since the last time I joined here :)
15:44:27 <Pikka> I vote for the avagoyamug approach... it worked for the original tramtracks :)
15:44:47 <andythenorth> well at least can we use a repo? not one massive diff :P
15:45:16 <Pikka> but like I said, you know much more about that sort of thing than I do
15:45:22 <andythenorth> install hg then :)
15:45:33 <andythenorth> or make me learn git
15:46:03 <Pikka> I don't know how to make you learn git, so okay
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15:47:55 <Digitalfox> I have a silly question about Grfcodec 6.0.0, I'm doing grfcodec -d s.grf, and I'm receiving a error "expected more data during tile decoding for sprite 42", this a GRF from 2008 that I want to edit some train properties for my own game... It's still unedited so it's in it's original form... Am I doing something wrong on the options?
15:48:52 <andythenorth> Rubidium what's a nice way to start a big patch? Checkout ottd and push it to a new repo?
15:50:59 <supermop> wouldn't any nice patches be small, andy?
15:51:17 <andythenorth> not my wording :P
15:51:37 <andythenorth> it might not be a nice patch
15:53:52 <Zuu> andythenorth: I would clone trunk and then have my patch as a patch queue.
15:54:04 <Zuu> No need to commit I think
15:54:30 <NGC3982> bah, i dont get iron ore mines
15:54:37 <Zuu> just "hg qrefresh" to update your patches.
15:54:39 <NGC3982> i cant seem to motivate large production
15:55:07 <NGC3982> even with 70-72% ratings i only get like 30 tonnes a year.
15:55:46 <Zuu> then "hp pull" and "hg update" to update to newer trunk versions. (I usually pop all patches before pulling from trunk)
15:56:06 <andythenorth> Zuu: how do you share the patch queue?
15:56:52 <Zuu> So far I've only published the patches as files on fs or forums.
15:57:02 <Zuu> Not sure how one could share them as a repo.
15:57:12 <andythenorth> might not be needed
15:57:27 <andythenorth> but also, probably by arsing around pushing them into a different repo
15:57:34 <andythenorth> which I don't want to do
15:57:34 <supermop> are you taking roads by yourself?
15:57:51 <andythenorth> I am standing around holding tools
15:57:57 <Zuu> if you name your patches with ".patch" in the name you give them in HG, the files in your .hg/patches folder will have propper .patch extension and you can just upload those.
15:59:14 <Pikka> oh, I guess that would work for "historic" buildings...
15:59:15 <andythenorth> my C++ is not great. How's yours?
15:59:23 <Pikka> only let them build on january first :)
15:59:29 <Pikka> my C++ is practically non-existant
15:59:53 <andythenorth> oh jolly good, that means we have no idea how hard this could be :)
16:00:16 <andythenorth> knowing too much can slow you down
16:01:01 <Pikka> also, about 80% of what we want is railtypes, so we only need to do the other 20%. right? :)
16:02:18 <andythenorth> a hg checkout of ottd is being very slow today
16:03:46 <Zuu> hg clone does fetch all historic changes too, not just the current state. So it is significantly slower than a svn checkout.
16:04:12 <Zuu> But once you got one clone you can updaet it and do local clones of it to get boiler plates for new patches.
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16:07:08 <andythenorth> as a starting point...
16:07:45 <Pikka> I guess I better install these tortoises and hgs first. actually I remember I did have this on my old machine way back when
16:07:57 <Pikka> when we were working on something for ttdpatch...
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16:30:37 <supermop> do you plan on changing the way one way roads form junctions?
16:30:53 <Pikka> at the moment they don't, do they?
16:31:14 <supermop> but it would be nice to make corners with one way roads
16:31:34 <supermop> currently an L requires you to switch back to regular road
16:32:01 <supermop> even though there is no possibility for a truck to get turned around on it
16:32:42 <supermop> also nice, would be a one way overlay on normal road
16:33:27 <supermop> like a a one way (one track) tramway over regular two way street, the reverse of what you can do now by placing tram on one way road
16:34:41 <supermop> one way tram would be pretty for balloon loops at end of line, but could be trouble in corners, intersection of normal street
16:35:08 <andythenorth> tram will be removed ;)
16:35:40 <supermop> meaning re-implimented differently by roadtype newgrf?
16:36:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: rather than removing tram U-turn, allow all vehicles to use those movement paths?
16:36:46 <supermop> how many types will your spec allow? 16?
16:37:02 <andythenorth> the turn-around behaviour of RVs is kind of tiresome currently
16:37:23 <Pikka> they turn around at the end of a tile, it's not that bad?
16:37:31 <supermop> i can see people not wanting a semi to u turn in the middle of a city street though
16:37:47 <supermop> very tiresome when that happens irl
16:38:15 <andythenorth> Pikka has a good point
16:38:28 <andythenorth> why am I always building odd bits of tile in cities?
16:38:44 <supermop> if you touch movement, it would be better to improve passing
16:39:00 <supermop> both for highways and for roadside stops
16:39:19 <andythenorth> iirc, it's completely unrelated ;)
16:39:44 <supermop> best not to touch it all all then i guess?
16:40:33 <andythenorth> not as part of roadtypes indeed ;)
16:42:54 <supermop> if a town built tramway, could a player drive trams on it?
16:43:17 <supermop> you can drive busses on other players roads, why not their tramways?
16:43:39 <CornishPasty> Isn't a tramway just a train track that can go over roads?
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16:43:59 <supermop> so a road grf could allow a town to build tramway,
16:44:13 <Zuu> CornishPasty: Depends on the detail level
16:44:25 <Pikka> but towns full of tramways would be odd
16:44:25 <Zuu> At some detail level you are right and on some other you are wrong.
16:44:44 <supermop> i guess you'd end up with some stupid tracks but you could simulate a town building a tram system and contracting with a private company to operate it
16:45:05 <supermop> in the game its more like a special road flag
16:46:28 <Zuu> I didn't know that currently you can't run trams on opponent tramways. But if that is changed, something like wmDOT can make tram systems for you to run trams on.
16:48:07 <supermop> if towns build tramways, there would need to be some way to keep them from simply filling every tile in the center of town with track and grand unions
16:48:55 <supermop> but a road grf could allow that at its own peril, shouldnt concern the road spec either way
16:49:05 <andythenorth> that's what the spec says too
16:49:16 <andythenorth> bit 7 of prop 10
16:49:18 <supermop> same with pedestrial street
16:50:17 <supermop> if you want your cities to close streets to traffic there shouldnt be a problem with that, so long as you are ok with losing the ability to provide bus service down town
16:51:58 <Pikka> yes, except that kind of behaviour is beyond the simple stuff that towns do
16:52:28 <Pikka> if you created a "pedestrian street" it would either never use it because the rating was too low, or it would build every street with that street
16:52:47 <Pikka> having a few downtown streets pedestrianised is well beyond the capabilities of the town "ai"
16:53:01 <Zuu> you would need to have a squirrel script to run under the scope of a town or so.
16:53:01 <supermop> is the a property to set what town zone it builds a type in?
16:53:17 <Zuu> But that might give a too high performance impact.
16:53:23 <supermop> ie fancy street in town and dirt roads way out on the edge?
16:54:11 <Pikka> but of course there is no reason your roadtype can't have fancy street in town and dirt roads way out
16:54:38 <supermop> as the speed limits might differ, it seems there could be functionality beyond the current plain/sidewalk/trees/lamps
16:55:48 <Zuu> Could perhaps the town 'ai' prefer road types with a lower maximum speed? As a way to at least prevent it to upgrade the whole town to highways.
16:56:12 <Pikka> it will prefer whatever roadtype the grf tells it to prefer
16:56:29 <Pikka> I don't think highways are a good choice for town-built roads
16:57:13 <Pikka> I imagine a sensible roadtype grf will have towns build macadam/cobble early on, then normal tarmac roads.
16:57:59 <Pikka> if I ever manage to even code anything ;)
16:58:52 <Zuu> something got done is better than something better, not done.
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17:01:11 * andythenorth ponders some horrible union of roadtypes behind the scenes
17:01:27 <andythenorth> so that 'tarmac road' is overbuildable with 'tram' or 'catenary' or whatever
17:01:39 <andythenorth> and then the type is actually merged
17:01:51 * andythenorth does something more useful
17:05:04 * andythenorth is removing them from a web app
17:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean globuli :)
17:18:08 <andythenorth> anyway it's done
17:18:46 <Pikka> hard to tell. roads probably
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17:26:24 <andythenorth> ^ Pikka there swaggers a worthy recruit
17:26:32 <andythenorth> try and persuade him
17:26:34 <andythenorth> I failed so far :P
17:27:20 <andythenorth> he's good at patching
17:27:36 <NGC3982> i cant seem to replace normal railway trains to electical
17:27:49 <NGC3982> when i choose it in the list, the list goes blank.
17:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that list shows the source engines, not the target engines
17:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the target engines always show both types
17:29:49 <NGC3982> note the window to the right.
17:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you have no electric engines
17:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> this selection is "replace FROM electric engines"
17:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> not "replace TO electric engines"
17:30:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: roadtypes!
17:30:28 <andythenorth> there's a spec and everything
17:30:32 <teggiiii> god bridges really rape the speed of a line
17:32:48 <andythenorth> probably much more fun than rv wagons
17:33:01 <andythenorth> the downside of rv-wagons is that it's just not that common to have >1 trailer on a truck
17:33:39 <andythenorth> and having to 'build truck' then 'drag trailer' then probably 'refit trailer' is no more usable than 'build truck, refit'
17:37:19 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, my bad. thank you!
17:42:09 <teggiiii> dumbo-question: how can i make a coalmine produce more coal? transport it all and create a "higher demand"?
17:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> teggiiii: production increases over time if you provide good transport rating
17:43:21 <teggiiii> are there any brackets saying what is "good" and "bad" transport-rating?
17:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> teggiiii: check your station rating. ratings <30% makes it more likely to lower production, rating >60% makes it more likely to grow
17:45:08 <teggiiii> re-designing a station and forgetting a track, creating a jam and not noticing for 10 minutes.. <3
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24110 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt latvian.txt unfinished/tamil.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 45 changes by Parastais
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tamil - 25 changes by aswn
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18:04:08 <NGC3982> facebook just bought instagram
18:04:19 <NGC3982> the price: one billion dollars.
18:05:23 <supermop> how many miles of single track, freight suitable railway could one build through a jungle with that much money?
18:06:49 <Terkhen> to the moon and back?
18:07:25 <andythenorth> supermop: in TTD?
18:07:37 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
18:07:51 <andythenorth> it's not that much money
18:08:05 <andythenorth> it's probably what, $10 / user or something?
18:08:09 <supermop> my new career plan is to be a cambodian railway baron
18:08:15 * andythenorth can't be bothered to look up instagram user numbers
18:08:28 <supermop> i doubt it 100 M people
18:09:34 <andythenorth> allegedly around 25M
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18:26:11 <andythenorth> just before a html <label> element:
18:26:12 <andythenorth> <!-- insert label -->
18:26:22 * andythenorth must have smoked extra crack that day
18:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> // this is a comment
18:30:38 <andythenorth> <!-- this is html -->
18:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause> / the following line is self-documenting
18:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, wrong button ;)
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18:57:33 <andythenorth> where's all the chat gone :P
19:20:45 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
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19:26:41 <drac_boy> anything new this time?
19:26:57 <Fori> I think I found some nice setup...
19:27:09 <Fori> I didnt play any game with it but kept searching for GRFs.
19:27:18 <Fori> And now I was looking for some MP servers for 1.2.0
19:28:52 <drac_boy> humm well I'm doing a few things atm but if you're still around for a while I could soon start a server? (although its not 1.2.0 so...)
19:29:30 <Fori> Nah, got university in the morning so I think I won't be online too long.
19:34:55 <Pikka> drawing hooses, andythenorth
19:35:49 <supermop> new ottd feature: NewHoses
19:36:04 <supermop> much easier to transport liquids
19:37:01 <supermop> and HoseTypes allows you to upgrade from green garden hose to firehose as demand increases
19:37:38 <drac_boy> are you serious supermop?
19:38:47 <supermop> junctions are a bit tricky though: should the garden hose just lay over the firehose, or should that tile take on the larger hose diameter
19:39:25 <drac_boy> a garden hose isn't fit for any kind of industrial-size outputs..is it?
19:39:35 <drac_boy> or are you just talking about relative map scale?
19:39:53 <supermop> it is quite fit for new industry: lawn sprinkler
19:39:59 <Pikka> obviously every hose should be a separate layer
19:40:07 <Pikka> so you can have as many hoses on each tile as you like
19:40:10 <drac_boy> well a sprinkler has nothing to do with industry cargos :p
19:40:29 <supermop> yes, it accepts water from the faucet industry
19:41:05 <drac_boy> probably at a rate of barely 1 litre meanwhile its outputting more than 40,000 litres
19:42:01 <drac_boy> that would be...several thousand hoses for one single industry
19:46:46 <supermop> OpenTTD is not to scale
19:47:00 <andythenorth> drac_boy: what's the dimension of a hose anyway?
19:47:09 <andythenorth> Pikka: hooses are not roadtypes
19:47:25 <drac_boy> andythenorth barely just enough to even sastify <5% of the output of the tropical water pump or any oilwells :)
19:47:28 <Pikka> I was working on the hooses already though
19:49:49 <drac_boy> fori mind if I pm you re some other words or you're already tired for bed? :)
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19:59:50 <drac_boy> anyone think you should be able to bring limited supply of food (aka feed) to a fishing ground or not so much so?
20:01:25 <Zuu> If you want to limit the amount you need to introduce stock piling, a somewhat advanced thingy that I think has been decided to not have in FIRS.
20:02:30 <drac_boy> zuu that wasn't quite the question heh. beside you can't feed 20 fishes 600 tonnes of food of a sudden :p
20:03:22 <andythenorth> drac_boy: if the fishing ground is a fish farm, yes
20:03:25 <andythenorth> if it's at sea, not
20:03:26 <Zuu> Sure, but while there is a "temporary full" message, there is to my knowledge no message to OpenTTD that an industry uses stockpiling or what the limits are (except for literal strings)
20:03:32 <krinn> drac_boy, maybe not for the fish, but you can still gave 600 tonnes of food to a fish farm, what they do with it while they raise only 20 fishes is their problem :P
20:04:16 <drac_boy> andythenorth thats what I was thinking (my friend has no idea what to tell me re this so he's not much help!) .. no food input then
20:04:25 <andythenorth> it was tried for FIRS briefly
20:04:37 <andythenorth> reality is not our best guide, but in this case, it applies
20:04:55 <drac_boy> at least the cattle ranch can accept some food since thats a bit obvious
20:05:15 <andythenorth> you're delivering animal feed?
20:05:29 <andythenorth> where does the feed come from?
20:05:31 <drac_boy> yeah but to avoid complicating thing its just lumped into 'food'
20:05:46 <drac_boy> did think about seperate hay_ for a moment but didn't see much merit
20:06:05 <andythenorth> so what does cattle ranch produce?
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20:07:11 <drac_boy> I'm undecided between either shipping cattle out...or it being butchered on the spot and shipped out as meat instead
20:09:10 <andythenorth> drac_boy: so how is food produced?
20:09:24 <TWerkhoven[l]> microwave meals
20:09:34 <TWerkhoven[l]> ready to eat, just heat em up
20:10:08 <drac_boy> theres a few small sources for food output.. farms ... flour mill (as breads is a 'food' after all heh) .. etc
20:10:14 <krinn> food for cattle, i'm afraid with dead cattle
20:11:13 <andythenorth> what do farms produce?
20:11:39 <Digitalfox> Since I'm not familiar with the development of GRFCodec, should I file a bug, when you get a error decompiling a GRF in 6.0.0 and not in 1.0.0? Maybe it's something known?
20:12:05 <drac_boy> interestingly enough in railroad tycoon 2 you had (farm)>grain>(bakery)>food>(town) and (farm)>grain>(stockyard)>cattle>(butchery)>food>(town) ... my rough diagram is not too far off from that
20:12:51 <andythenorth> drac_boy: FIRS doesn't have any farm->farm connection, but sometimes I think it should
20:12:55 <andythenorth> it can't though :P
20:12:56 <drac_boy> andythenorth actually the farm would produce just one output of something else that has to be sent to a middle industry for to then get 'food' out of it. I don't know which crops I'm thinking of yet but wheat is one consideration
20:14:09 <drac_boy> wheat could go to either bakery for 'food' or to the brewery to be mixed with bottles (glass, steel, or ?) then outputted as 'food' .. theres other crop suggestions I could think of too tho
20:15:12 <drac_boy> just as long as its not rice as that doesn't quite fit with snowy mountains :)
20:16:19 <drac_boy> btw maybe I should draw what I have of a diagram and let you criticize it then? :p
20:17:30 <andythenorth> it's quite tempting to put abstractions into code so that 'big changes are easy'
20:17:51 <andythenorth> this makes the code hard to work with when you have to read it and make small changes
20:18:02 <andythenorth> and once every 5 years you make the big change
20:18:09 <drac_boy> andythenorth btw do you think its plausible to make an industry that only can be placed on sloped tile adjacent to water?
20:18:10 <andythenorth> which you could have done in an hour with find + replace
20:18:19 <krinn> if you wish something none as done (to my knowledge) yet, it's trash :P
20:18:19 <andythenorth> drac_boy: FIRS fishing harbour does it
20:18:28 <krinn> town produce trash -> incinerator
20:18:37 <andythenorth> krinn: it's borin
20:18:41 <drac_boy> andythenorth ah heh...I was thinking of a harbour in general but guess you got me beat to that idea :)
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20:20:12 <andythenorth> does nothing for gameplay
20:20:24 <andythenorth> basically there are 32 cargos, and 'trash' is not worth a slot
20:20:30 <andythenorth> other things are more interesting
20:20:48 <drac_boy> andythenorth do you think that this isn't a bad idea: steel mill...accepts coal+ore ... it'll work fine with ore alone ... adding coal would only upper the output ... but if you keep sending coal to it nonstop and little or no ore it'll eventually block off any further coal input?
20:21:03 <andythenorth> drac_boy: try it and see
20:21:09 <drac_boy> theres no limit on the ore... but as for the coal side itself I'm having to think a bit more about that
20:21:11 <Pikka> tourists, andythenorth!
20:21:32 <drac_boy> at least that would be a lot better than the irriating uksi and ecs behaviours (no offense meant please ok pikka?)
20:21:35 <andythenorth> yes, because tourists are not passengers!
20:21:37 <krinn> maybe restrict incinerator distance from town
20:21:51 <andythenorth> tourists are Special Passengers!
20:22:31 <krinn> eheh what are tourists? passengers that pay 2x everything
20:22:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: when are you adding 1st class coaches to UKRS?
20:23:25 <Pikka> after I add smoking and non-smoking passengers
20:23:32 <drac_boy> andythenorth considering that the real things needed to make glass would be difficult to add tot an industry grf ... do you think that just sand alone would be enough or should it be sand plus a second something else? (don't suggest water if you'll mind, I'm assuming industries have their own city supply pipes heh)
20:23:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: but think of the realism!
20:24:00 <andythenorth> you could enforce that train formations *must* be accurate for that particular day and route
20:24:12 <andythenorth> HSTs *must* be 4+1+2
20:24:19 <andythenorth> you could render BROS invalid!
20:24:55 <andythenorth> drac_boy: go play FIRS, and/or read the dev thread, and you'll discover what I think of industries
20:25:01 <andythenorth> and the process I got there via :P
20:25:03 <krinn> andythenorth, so what? i then couldn't make a train for smokers or cound't make one non smokers only ?
20:25:33 <andythenorth> krinn: or you could smoke a train
20:26:03 <andythenorth> Pikka: ^ that is a significantly easier project, if roadtypes got boring
20:28:04 <drac_boy> andythenorth theres only one small problem with your suggestion: the readme points to only ottd ^_^
20:28:26 <drac_boy> krinn just don't forget to put the smokers up front closer to the steam locomotive :p
20:28:36 <andythenorth> only ottd is a problem because...?
20:29:09 * drac_boy throws another of the patch at andythenorth
20:29:44 <Pikka> because you can't get the wood you know
20:29:54 <drac_boy> andythenorth..you know..that other game :)
20:30:20 <andythenorth> I've heard of that
20:30:31 <andythenorth> it has some insane system of variable graphic sizes
20:30:31 <drac_boy> peter1138 thats not a patch :)
20:30:44 <andythenorth> simutrans has cargo destinations too
20:30:53 <andythenorth> drac_boy: you can't play ottd?
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20:31:02 <andythenorth> your platform is supported only by ttdp?
20:32:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I guess that's the way basically everyone starts
20:34:55 <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah pretty much....unless someone gets that sidelined ottd-dos build started again but that seem unlikely :)
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20:35:39 <Rubidium> drac_boy: that build still builds
20:35:57 <andythenorth> it's an intriguing requirement
20:36:04 <andythenorth> how will you draw your pixels in dos?
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20:36:18 <drac_boy> andythenorth I don't ... dos is actually a guest os btw
20:37:17 <planetmaker> so he runs neither Solaris, *BSD, Windows*, *Linux*, OSX > 10.3
20:37:46 <drac_boy> andythenorth the pixels are coming from photoshop just fyi
20:37:51 <peter1138> basically dragonhorsedonkeypanthersheepsnakekoalaboychild likes ttdpatch
20:38:01 <andythenorth> well that's fine
20:38:07 <andythenorth> he's in a gang of 4 now
20:38:13 <planetmaker> krinn: there it works, too. I forgot
20:38:32 <planetmaker> at least that's my latest info. orudge will know better.
20:38:57 <drac_boy> andythenorth the funny thing is I doubted it would even work but I can forward ethernet tcp/ip into dos .. so it does have some resemble of working ftp :p
20:39:00 <peter1138> and he wants to run openttd under dos as a guest os because that places a silly restriction on the availability of openttd for his platform
20:39:27 <drac_boy> usually use Fetch and then just copy the files to the shared folder for the emulator tho
20:39:37 <peter1138> what are you running dos on?
20:40:28 <Rubidium> the dos build even seems to work (excl. network)
20:40:55 <peter1138> it's too easy to just run openttd under macos
20:41:15 <valhallasw> it's not real ttd if it's not under dos!
20:42:13 <drac_boy> peter1138 well I don't see any means to, and even Symantec C++ doesn't quite like the source
20:42:20 <planetmaker> peter1138: macos might indeed pose a big challenge. macos != OSX
20:42:22 <andythenorth> drac_boy: so you're going to create a (large) set, in TTDP
20:42:28 <andythenorth> which is a dead project
20:42:40 <andythenorth> everybody working on it left
20:42:47 <andythenorth> it has provably fewer useful features
20:42:48 <drac_boy> andythenorth not that large actually. the rail list is <40 locomotives and <10 wagons
20:42:58 <andythenorth> but you're doing an industry chain too?
20:43:26 <drac_boy> only a small one...about 26 industries and 12 slots
20:44:16 <drac_boy> not really..I could had doubled it if I wanted to but thats getting too complex for a 'basic industry' tho :)
20:45:33 <drac_boy> anyhow going release a useable grf next month or two. maybe screenshots earlier tho ^_^
20:45:56 <andythenorth> and you prefer playing TTDP?
20:46:08 <andythenorth> is it the custom bridgeheads by any chance?
20:47:44 * FLHerne fiddles with More Heightlevels
20:47:45 <drac_boy> not much of any features tbh
20:47:56 <Fori> A "load 75% or more" command would be nice ^^
20:48:06 <drac_boy> although programmable signals was one but I noticed that its in chrill's patch tho
20:48:22 <andythenorth> so why the DOS / VirtualPC setup?
20:48:34 <FLHerne> I think I did something wrong - the void has gone a very nice shade of pink :-(
20:48:37 <drac_boy> fori I think I once suggested some sort of 0-100% loading option in the schedule dialog in steps of tens
20:48:45 <drac_boy> not sure what anyone else really think of it
20:48:54 <Fori> What do you think about it?
20:49:47 <drac_boy> andythenorth because the only native version for macos was an old pre-deluxe one for japan. I doubt that it would be possible to get newgrfs working on it so thats a dead end for sure :)
20:50:21 <andythenorth> you have OS 9 or something?
20:51:08 <drac_boy> fori I think the partial load feature could help with pax trains..not leaving empty but not have to wait for a full load on a long train tho
20:51:19 <drac_boy> hmm probably planes too
20:51:41 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Just run linux on your old hardware, then OTTD on that :P
20:52:19 <drac_boy> FLHerne problem would be no software compactibility... plus you actually need to dualboot with macos due to firmware issues with anything thats below the G4
20:52:36 <drac_boy> I do have YDL on one of the noninternet mac tho
20:53:38 <FLHerne> Yes, I know the firmware's a pain. I ran Chill's PP on my PB1400, took about 6 hours to compile :P
20:54:55 <drac_boy> that makes me thinking..did ottd ever supported rails over tunnel portals?
20:55:21 <peter1138> oh right, so you're having to emulate an x86 cpu as well
20:55:25 <peter1138> that must be... slow
20:55:46 <FLHerne> ALso, any ideas on my pink background? It looks rather silly, and I'm not quite sure how it happened :-(
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20:56:31 <drac_boy> peter1138 for windows it can be but anything dos based doesn't really care because its already rather 'fast' for them
20:56:47 <FLHerne> No, OTTD compiles for PPC ok
20:56:53 <Rubidium> FLHerne: dos vs window palette
20:57:01 <krinn> can't you just install a linux for ppc and play openttd?
20:57:16 <drac_boy> FLHerne there is two small strips in the palette that is different between dos and windows afaik
20:57:34 <drac_boy> one was that dos omitted the water strip present in win ... forgot what the second one was
20:57:53 <drac_boy> I know that the win palette had a pink strip named 'Win API' I think
20:58:09 <FLHerne> krinn: That's what I'm doing, still slow though, and the stable linux kernels don't work. OTTD at 133MHz is painful
20:58:37 <FLHerne> Rubidium: How do I change that then? Pallettes are irritating
20:59:35 <Rubidium> I reckon the patch comes with an extra sprite, doesn't it?
20:59:41 <krinn> FLHerne, well, what would you expect from such an old cpu... i'm not aware of any problem with kernel and ppc, but i'm not aware of ppc world
21:00:38 <FLHerne> Rubidium: It does, yes. So it's using the wrong pallette and coming out pink instead of black?
21:01:27 <FLHerne> krinn: Linux on PPC is Ok, the problem is nubus expansion slots, due to them being totally non-standard
21:01:28 <Rubidium> so you need to convert that GRF to the other palette, or mess with the code so the 'right' palette is chosen
21:02:05 <drac_boy> Rubidium grfcodec could deal with decode+encode into alternative palette didn't it?
21:02:06 <FLHerne> Rubidium: thanks. I'll go and look at the wiki for palette conversion then :D
21:03:21 <Rubidium> although I'm still not understanding why the extra sprite is needed
21:03:22 <xiong> drac_boy, you may be the last OS 9 guy in the room. I used to be the last OS 9 guy and I still have a beige G3 in running condition.
21:03:43 * drac_boy gives xiong a spare Macpose game cd? :)
21:04:14 <Rubidium> why do freeform edges work now, but don't they work correctly when having more heightlevels? That really smells like a bug in the heightlevels patch where the extra sprite is just an ugly workaround
21:04:48 <FLHerne> Beige G3s are nasty - I intend to dispose of mine '<
21:05:00 <andythenorth> we sprayed ours blue
21:05:05 <andythenorth> and then sold it for too much money
21:05:23 <xiong> Ship it to me, FLHerne; I'll pay the freight. I might need the spare someday.
21:05:30 <andythenorth> we sold it for £200 or so
21:05:59 <andythenorth> we bought it for £1200 and it paid back in about a year :P
21:06:05 <FLHerne> It's one of the flat desktop ones - even worse than the towers :|
21:06:19 <andythenorth> mmm...but the internals of the case are tidy
21:06:29 <andythenorth> and you get a proper keyboard
21:06:32 <xiong> The internals are very tidy indeed.
21:06:38 <NGC3982> < xiong> I have some Tropico!
21:06:43 <FLHerne> Not as good as the turquoise G4s :D
21:06:45 <andythenorth> why is everyone suddenly a beige G3 owner?
21:06:57 <NGC3982> xiong: sweet jesus and mary joseph.
21:07:00 <FLHerne> Little case-flopping open catches are nice
21:07:01 <NGC3982> that is a fantastic game
21:07:07 <NGC3982> forgotten about it completely
21:07:15 * NGC3982 downloads in an instant.
21:07:26 <andythenorth> is there an OS X version available?
21:07:38 * drac_boy actually prefers desktop form myself
21:07:50 <drac_boy> would had rather ordered the DT over the MT if I was ever shopping around back then
21:07:51 <NGC3982> i dont think i ever played tropico after the first game
21:07:53 <xiong> I will participate in OpenTropico only if brothels are added.
21:08:46 <drac_boy> andythenorth btw I don't know if it was on purpose or not but there are quite a number of new libs and softwares you can get binary for (or just compile yourself) on macos ... ghostscript comes to mind for one
21:09:04 <NGC3982> xiong: well, let's get cracking then, ey.
21:09:07 <andythenorth> Tropico 3 works on 10.6.8
21:09:22 <andythenorth> expect to not see me for a while :P
21:10:27 <NGC3982> tropico 4 looks nice, but thats not what i want from a game.
21:10:44 <NGC3982> surely, most of us dont in the premisses of this channel.
21:11:03 * krinn wonders who is going to paint his screen with red and green lines to play space invaders like the real arcade now
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21:11:44 <drac_boy> krinn maybe you should try some real vector games? I dunno :)
21:12:58 <krinn> i'm going to bed, i feel too old now
21:19:54 <Fori> NGC, tropico 1 was so nice...
21:20:26 <Fori> Most of game series get destroyed by "improvements".
21:22:47 <Nat_aS> Ehh, in general I agree with you, but I find Tropico 1 to be unplayable
21:23:06 <Nat_aS> although 4 made the right choice by not changing much from 3
21:23:15 <Nat_aS> sometimes you can't even tell the diffrence from screenshots
21:23:33 <Fori> Well. Nat_aS the traffic system is a good idea but completely broken ^^
21:23:47 <Nat_aS> I never had a problem with traffic
21:24:09 <Nat_aS> i mean my streets get crowded, but I've never had it effect my island badly
21:27:08 <Fori> Damn all those devs all blaming piracy for not well selling games -.-
21:27:14 <Fori> It's about DRM and GOOD games.
21:27:30 <Fori> Or are they aware and the rest is just PR ?
21:27:50 <Fori> I'd pay for OpenTTD if it wasn't free. (I think I'll make a donation)
21:38:30 <Rubidium> OpenTTD is a good example that without DRM on good games you can't rake in millions
21:43:39 <peter1138> Minecraft is a good example that without DRM on good games you can rake in millions
21:44:56 <glx> there is a kind of DRM in minecraft ;)
21:45:11 <peter1138> centralised login, true
21:51:05 <ToxicFrog> A better example is GOG.
21:51:18 <peter1138> are they raking in millions?
21:52:33 <ToxicFrog> They were as of their last report, yes.
21:52:43 <ToxicFrog> And are signing new publishers at a steady rate - they just got Ubisoft on board.
21:54:21 <MNIM> skyrim doesn't have a drm if Im not mistaken.
21:55:26 <ToxicFrog> It does; it's Steamworks.
21:55:45 <MNIM> ..wait it has ste-oh yeah. piiiirated it.
21:55:47 <__ln__> But OpenTTD does have DRM. It won't even start without graphics files.
21:56:03 <drac_boy> __ln__ you not heard of "go get opengfx" :p
21:56:27 <Fori> MNIM, I did first. But then thought "Meh, you cannot buy Skyrim"...
21:56:49 <ToxicFrog> Rubidium: really, what openTTD is demonstrating right now is "freeware games don't make millions". No, really?
21:57:04 <__ln__> drac_boy: If the bananas server or whatever is taken offline, then one can't get the opengfx and the game won't start.
21:57:10 <Fori> Was talking about pirating Skyrim, MNIM
21:57:18 <ToxicFrog> (and what it was demonstrating before opengfx was "games that are no longer sold don't make millions, but people are still willing to pirate them". This isn't surprising either, in either direction.)
21:57:28 <ToxicFrog> (see also: the profusion of abandonware sites)
21:57:36 <MNIM> I got that, fori, but your grammar makes no sense on me
21:57:38 <drac_boy> __ln__ who said it was on bananas?
21:57:58 <MNIM> actually, __ln__, nope :P it's included in the ubuntu repos at least
21:58:16 <__ln__> drac_boy: I don't know where the Windows installer gets it from, but that's irrelevant.
21:58:33 <drac_boy> __ln__ where did you download your windows installer? there's a nearby url that says 'opengfx'
21:58:40 <drac_boy> thats all I can say about that :)
21:59:06 <__ln__> MNIM: Ubuntu repos can be taken offline; even if not, using Ubuntu repos usually requires an Internet connection.
21:59:43 <ToxicFrog> __ln__: calling this "DRM" is a stretch
21:59:52 <ToxicFrog> Once you have the files downloaded, that's all you need
22:00:57 <ToxicFrog> By that definition, everything GOG releases "DRM-free" actually has DRM, because you have to actually download the game before you can play it.
22:01:07 <drac_boy> yeah I had to check, click 'download openttd' ... and conventionally the opengfx url is located before the download table
22:01:15 <Fori> That definition makes no sense to me.
22:01:26 <Fori> Cause if you can copy the files once you downloaded them there's no DRM.
22:01:35 <Fori> And launch without any LogIn and stuff.
22:01:41 <ToxicFrog> Or, for a more similar comparison, Marathon Aleph-One, which has seperate downloads for the game engine and game data.
22:02:13 <ToxicFrog> (although in that case the game data is actually the original game data, released as freeware by the developer, rather than a cleanroom replacement for it)
22:02:29 <MNIM> well yeah. anyway, Imma agree with the frog here, that's a bit farfetched
22:02:56 <Fori> When I heard SimCity uses Origin I was like :(
22:03:35 <Zuu> In 1.2, isn't there a dialog showing that asks to download OpenGFX if no data can be found?
22:04:03 <Fori> Well. At least the was for me ^^
22:04:26 <Zuu> It worked for me when I tried it when it was introduced in trunk.
22:05:13 <Rubidium> glx: s/maybe/definitely/
22:05:14 <Zuu> So its a DRM that you need Linux or Windows? ;-)
22:05:37 <Fori> Guys, I'm off, see ya tomorrow.
22:05:43 <glx> it's because apple deprecation policy
22:05:57 <Rubidium> Zuu: you also require freetype (and on Linux fontconfig)
22:06:30 <Rubidium> yeah, officially we only "support" 10.3.9, 10.4.x and 10.5.x
22:07:06 <Rubidium> but effectively there's really no support at all
22:07:12 <glx> rewrite OSX port for each new OSX version is not nice
22:10:04 <drac_boy> glx that was one thing i never understood apple for, treating each version as completely different os compared to everyone else
22:11:02 <glx> drac_boy: that's a good thing for paid software ;)
22:11:12 <drac_boy> not so much for most of everyone else :P
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