IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-12
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07:07:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Huh, didn't expect that to work
07:08:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Added a per-platform waiting bay to my congested station, as well as switching to presignals, and it now handles the traffic
07:09:45 <Rhamphoryncus> My guess is that the pathfinder has one weight for "train in the way", another for "platform in use", so in a full station as soon as one train finishes loading and starts moving it immediately becomes more desirable than the other still-in-use platforms
07:09:52 <Nat_aS> also path signals are the best
07:10:22 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't believe path vs block matters here
07:12:55 <Nat_aS> FIRS works in tropical?
07:13:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Without the waiting bays that entering train would still be waiting, as none of the platforms are actually free yet
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10:34:59 <FLHerne> Typing on an IRC channel :P
10:35:17 <drac_boy> heh so not busy with anything else atm?
10:36:16 <FLHerne> Not very...I rewrote the last post of my screenshot thread, and now I'm waiting for OTTD to compile (again)
10:36:50 <FLHerne> Then I can find all the bugs and break it differently :P
10:38:02 <drac_boy> which screenshot btw?
10:38:39 * Rhamphoryncus knows a few bugs that need reporting
10:39:40 <FLHerne> Rhamphoryncus: I think most of my bugs are self-induced :|
10:40:47 <planetmaker> as long as it doesn't bug you too much ;-)
10:40:59 <planetmaker> </random comment from voice from off>
10:42:06 <drac_boy> btw FLHerne just wondering about it...would you like to play a chrillpatch game together? I didn't know you had it too
10:44:18 <FLHerne> I'd like to...I'm afraid I can't host though, my ISP doesn't deal well with forwarding of unusual ports
10:44:43 <drac_boy> actually..I was thinking of me :)
10:45:28 <FLHerne> If you hosted, I'd join :P
10:47:35 <drac_boy> FLHerne you partial about any grfs in particular or wouldn't care for whatever I've picked?
10:47:36 <Rhamphoryncus> Bizarre by ottd standards I mean :)
10:48:23 <FLHerne> drac_boy: UKRS2(+) is nice, I assume you have NARS or similar
10:48:38 <FLHerne> No particular must-haves, except FISH possibly
10:48:59 <FLHerne> Rhamphoryncus: What's so bizzarre about it?
10:49:20 <Rhamphoryncus> It's not a high-volume roro
10:51:39 <FLHerne> Probably the least efficient station cluster ever :P
10:52:19 <Rhamphoryncus> err.. yeah, I'd say so :)
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11:45:44 <FLHerne> xiong: That's less ugly than normal for a loop station - I'll stick to my convoluted tangles though :P
11:46:34 <xiong> I'm refining a few station designs, both terminal and through. I consider space efficiency critical, since I play with long trains and small spread.
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12:34:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Woo, gmund mogs upgraded to 100 km/h
12:35:15 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm picturing a bunch of teenagers driving pickups with lift kits and oversized tires
12:40:13 <drac_boy> actually I don't know why they bothered.. the unimog should stay where it is as a slow go-about-anywhere-with-anything vehicle which was its good merit years ago
12:40:20 <drac_boy> especially with the PTO options given
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12:45:14 <drac_boy> I know of an article re someone with a Boss Unimog .. it had a pushbutton transmission instead of normal stick .. but either way it could happily chug up a 50 degree slope in either forward or reverse with a large pile of stones in rear
12:45:34 <drac_boy> factory pickups would never ever be able to do that
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12:51:46 <xiong> Ah, I have it... Skateboard, capacity 1 passenger, refittable to 6 cans of beer.
13:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> something really weird happened to my kwin :/
13:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it somewhat crashed, but i can't get it to restart
13:08:42 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Oh? Mine is stupidly unstable, but normally starts again...how did you crash it?
13:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> happened when browsing in dolphin
13:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i should try to restart kde...
13:10:22 <FLHerne> Try restarting kwin fron the Dolphin console
13:10:50 <FLHerne> It has a terminal emulator, running kwin from there might work
13:11:46 <dihedral> how often do i need to post my internal password ? :-D
13:13:30 <dihedral> it's not like you could access the systems anyway :-D
13:14:00 <peter1138> why are pringles so bloody expensive these days?
13:17:11 <DanMacK> because they're so bloody good?
13:21:14 <dihedral> either you sell in huge quantity or you sell expensive :-P
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13:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> < FLHerne> Try restarting kwin fron the Dolphin console <-- i did try that
13:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or... any console...
13:25:57 <FLHerne> Presumably didn't work, then?
13:26:25 <FLHerne> Did it say why it didn't work?
13:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> no... nothing... didn't even react on ^C
13:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> neither on kill -15
13:30:12 <FLHerne> What distro are you using?
13:33:54 <FLHerne> Kubuntu here seems stupidly unstable sometimes
13:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and i did not have this kind of problem before...
13:36:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean kwin did crash before, but it usually came back, either immediately, or after manually starting it from a console
13:36:22 <FLHerne> My kwin crashes every time I log in, and every time I log out, and occasionally in between... :P
13:36:40 <FLHerne> But it always comes back, so far
13:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no... it's really not that bad :p
13:38:52 <FLHerne> Good. I'm slowly moving to Gentoo, but all the compiling takes ages
13:39:21 <FLHerne> 10.10 was Ok, 11.10 is the least stable distro I've ever used
13:40:09 <FLHerne> ...and that's including Debian Etch on a nubus-pmac kernel
13:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really not desperate enough to revert to self-compiling...
13:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and that doesn't increase the quality of KDE anyway...
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13:42:44 <FLHerne> Yes, but if I'm going to switch distro, I may as well try something different :D
13:43:16 <FLHerne> I finally have enough computing power to compile stuff in less than 10 years...
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14:34:39 <heffer> FLHerne: go for Fedora :D
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14:49:39 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 18 hours, 19 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Pikka> because you can't get the wood you know
14:55:11 <andythenorth> It's interesting that Simuscape is being referred to as 'a development community like Simuscape'
14:55:27 <andythenorth> maybe a schism just happened :)
14:57:26 * andythenorth wonders if tt-forums is no longer the default all-encompassing community
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15:00:48 <__ln__> drac_boy: the canadian is causing trouble over here, can we send him back?
15:01:19 <drac_boy> no idea who that is sorry
15:01:58 <__ln__> drac_boy: CEO of some insignificant cell phone manufacturer.
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16:13:16 <XxXDukeXxX> I want to know is there something i can do (while afk) so that my Company doesn`t go bankruptcy?
16:14:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Singleplayer you can just pause it
16:15:17 <Rhamphoryncus> But once established a company doesn't typically ever lose money
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17:09:23 <andythenorth> michi_cc: Eddi|zuHause made me a really nice game-speed patch
17:09:55 <andythenorth> at the end of each year, it reset the date back a year (once only per year)
17:10:04 <Nat_aS> yeah, OTTD is one of the safest games to leave running
17:10:22 <Nat_aS> assuming your network is stable
17:10:42 <andythenorth> I maintain that approach is the most robust solution to game progression, way better than arsing about with daylength :D
17:11:07 <andythenorth> it does mean that vehicle availability flaps around a bit :P
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17:11:53 <FLHerne> I do that already, the cheat menu works fine :D
17:11:55 <Nat_aS> or just set all vehicles to never expire and live in anachronism land
17:12:17 <Nat_aS> get trains, fuck dates
17:12:34 <Nat_aS> i mean Fuck dates get trains
17:17:30 <FLHerne> Does anyone here use KATE for editing source files?
17:19:03 <frosch123> FLHerne: i used it in kde3
17:19:39 <oskari89> I would like patch which could draw rivers with a special color used on heightmaps :P
17:20:09 <oskari89> Since Finnish scenarios have 10^5 lakes....
17:20:36 <oskari89> Pain in arse when placing them all manually in scenery editor :P
17:22:18 <planetmaker> oskari89: that sounds like a subset of a new scenario format ;-)
17:23:04 <Terkhen> yeah... something like that was planned for the new format
17:23:21 <oskari89> Could someone take that feature to work?
17:23:40 <oskari89> I can't do C++, unfortunately :P
17:24:05 <Terkhen> I have been too uninspired with OpenTTD for a while
17:24:27 <Terkhen> and the new scenario format is not precisely a small feature
17:24:34 <andythenorth> Terkhen: have you heard of a new game?
17:24:41 <andythenorth> it's called minecraft :P
17:25:23 <Terkhen> I know about it, but it never caught my attention
17:25:53 <oskari89> OpenTTD ("under the hood") developing needs a kick from something, it's slowly declining... Like TTDPatch :P
17:25:59 * andythenorth has been avoiding minecraft
17:26:06 <andythenorth> oskari89: ottd is dying
17:26:57 <andythenorth> entropy is another
17:27:04 <andythenorth> all things are dying
17:27:45 <Terkhen> adding new features becomes increasingly complicated with time
17:27:46 <andythenorth> it has very no problems left which attract developers
17:28:12 <andythenorth> there are very few people who can review patches
17:28:26 <andythenorth> the community is increasingly retarded and fractious
17:28:55 <andythenorth> but most of all it's kind of done
17:29:00 <andythenorth> we beat ttdpatch
17:29:06 <andythenorth> the losers have gone off in a huff
17:29:11 <andythenorth> there's no meta-game left to play
17:29:26 <FLHerne> Is a meta-game necessary
17:29:26 <oskari89> There needs to be more!
17:30:12 <andythenorth> collaborative open source is a social meta-game
17:30:27 <FLHerne> I'm repetitively breaking my local copy because I want shiny features, not because of a meta-game :P
17:30:36 <Terkhen> it never has been about beating anyone
17:30:38 <andythenorth> and for ottd, it's (1) hard to start playing (2) there's no easy early win conditions
17:30:56 <planetmaker> oskari89: it's not trivial to make good patches and write them well
17:31:15 <planetmaker> maybe the standards also got higher over the years. Most probable actually
17:31:30 <oskari89> But the list of requested features is long, there's much left to do :P
17:31:57 <andythenorth> nobody can get to level 1 any more
17:32:03 <andythenorth> the meta-game is too hard
17:32:18 <oskari89> Developement shouldn't stop, chillcore's patchpack shows it :P
17:32:22 <andythenorth> good game design (usually) requires making it easy for players to achieve early and keep playing
17:32:35 <andythenorth> shouldn't? maybe? will? probably
17:32:51 <oskari89> More integrated help?
17:32:59 <oskari89> And tutorials maybe?
17:33:16 <planetmaker> the game script interface is meant to work as tutorial, too
17:33:27 <planetmaker> there exists a project start for that
17:33:32 <Terkhen> already possible, NoGo can be used to add a lot of things to the game
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17:33:56 <Terkhen> I hope to get interested again once that we start seeing interesting NoGo scripts
17:34:02 <planetmaker> this is an English only channel...
17:34:37 <andythenorth> there was a spree of awesome commits earlier this year
17:34:49 <andythenorth> lot of awesome new stuff got added
17:34:59 <Terkhen> werson2: check your private messages, I'm talking to you
17:35:35 <Terkhen> andythenorth: OpenTTD development goes in waves, "near release" is the minimum
17:35:46 <Terkhen> oh well, he couldn't answer my private message
17:36:14 <Terkhen> and I wasn't going to explain him how to open private messages in IRC in the public channel using spanish :)
17:36:23 * andythenorth remains a NoGo doubter. Or fence sitter
17:36:28 <andythenorth> 'doubter' is unfair
17:36:54 <Terkhen> NoGo can and will be awesome, we just need someone to start making crazy scripts :P
17:37:08 <andythenorth> I should play the game and see what NoGo does
17:37:15 <andythenorth> is it still server only?
17:37:20 * andythenorth is out of touch :P
17:37:27 * andythenorth hasn't played the game for months and months
17:38:00 <Terkhen> to my knowledge it can be loaded for single player games too
17:38:55 <FLHerne> Hmm...is removing assertions because they fail annoyingly a good idea?
17:39:22 <planetmaker> FLHerne: they're there to fail. And stop worse things happening
17:39:26 <andythenorth> replacing them with new, correct assertions might be a good idea
17:39:46 <planetmaker> If they fail, something went wrong. E.g. a function is called under wrong circumstances or with invalid parameters
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17:40:01 <andythenorth> assertions here are ~= unit tests?
17:40:11 <planetmaker> like assert(company_id < max_companies)
17:40:29 <planetmaker> calling it with 17 would certainly cause an invalid read. somewhen and somewhere. or even write
17:40:45 <FLHerne> Well, it doesn't seem to crash when I remove the assertion, so possibly I got the assertion wrong :P
17:40:52 <Terkhen> asserts are used to check things that NEVER should be true
17:41:25 <Terkhen> if you patched OpenTTD, that particular assertion might not be needed anymore
17:41:29 <planetmaker> FLHerne: removing them might not have any immediate effect. But side-effects not immediately or apparently visible
17:41:40 <Terkhen> or maybe the patch creator introduced an error and the assert is doing its work
17:41:42 <planetmaker> what Terkhen says. Depends on what you do
17:41:56 <planetmaker> the patch creator *should* know :-)
17:42:07 <FLHerne> planetmaker/Terkhen: True, I will keep testing it :P
17:42:23 <Terkhen> with a stable (or trunk) OpenTTD, assertions should never be triggered, they are there to prevent developers from destroying something without noticing
17:42:58 <Terkhen> since development is frozen for stables, they are deemed "safe" in this regard and assertions are disabled for them
17:45:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24113 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt traditional_chinese.txt):
17:45:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 3 changes by chaut0
17:45:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by OliTTD
17:45:27 * andythenorth is way more motivated when pikka is here
17:45:34 <andythenorth> he makes it fun :P
17:45:45 <FLHerne> Ok..I probably did need it. Pesky segmentation faults :-(
17:45:54 * andythenorth is not chief fun spreader
17:46:17 * andythenorth has become spreader of grumpiness and doom :P
17:46:39 <andythenorth> Terkhen: how is your job? :)
17:46:41 <andythenorth> do you write code?
17:47:12 <Terkhen> not as much as I would like, most of the time I'm doing test protocols
17:47:26 <Terkhen> boring and tedious :P
17:47:29 <andythenorth> documenting? or writing automated tests?
17:47:34 <andythenorth> or running tests?
17:47:55 <Terkhen> automated test? I would like that
17:48:08 <Terkhen> no, they are documents that I have to follow
17:48:33 <andythenorth> what kind of software is it? embedded? shrinkwrap? client-server? web?
17:49:19 <andythenorth> it's manually tested simply because there's no automation? or for other reasons?
17:50:52 <planetmaker> in one of andy's recommended web pages it is then suggested to spend 10% of the working time on getting it automated (assuming andy's assumption above is true)
17:50:53 <Terkhen> there is some automated testing for the server side, the test protocols are mostly for GUI stuff and checking some key functionalities
17:51:10 <Terkhen> GUI tests can't be automated very easily
17:51:27 <andythenorth> is it a client for a windowing system?
17:51:54 <Terkhen> I had to write some JUnit tests, it was fun
17:52:00 <Terkhen> specially when I discovered mock classes
17:53:24 <andythenorth> most OSes have some form of GUI scripting
17:53:31 <andythenorth> if it's browser based, Selenium is your friend
17:55:13 <Terkhen> many people are mostly following test protocols... if they were automated they would less people :P
17:55:43 <andythenorth> that's a common fallacy :P
17:55:52 <andythenorth> they could use the same people to write valuable code
17:55:59 <andythenorth> thereby shipping faster, or better
17:56:11 <Terkhen> that would be nice, yup
17:58:32 <andythenorth> or you could spend the saved time in meetings :P
17:58:42 <andythenorth> reality is the time will be spent maintaining automated tests :P
17:58:57 <andythenorth> but you can run more of them faster, and with fewer mistakes and defects
18:05:00 <Terkhen> talking about automation... we use CVS
18:05:48 <andythenorth> you can't move to svn for legacy reasons?
18:06:20 <andythenorth> "it's just not SVN"
18:06:24 <Terkhen> for someone accustomed to mercurial, it is quite a shock
18:06:37 <andythenorth> "SVN: like CVS, but it works"
18:06:45 <planetmaker> it's about... as ancient as a Coelacanth
18:06:48 <Terkhen> when the project started, SVN did not exist
18:07:21 <frosch123> Terkhen: CVS is even a shock for svn users
18:07:39 <frosch123> but maybe you can ask about using RCCS instead :p
18:07:42 <andythenorth> although it seems ancient, SVN is a relatively recent innovation
18:07:59 <andythenorth> I read 'history of version control' last year somewhere
18:08:26 <frosch123> [20:06] <Terkhen> when the project started, SVN did not exist <- my company converted all cvs repos to svn some years ago
18:08:28 <andythenorth> a lot of version control stuff was very theoretical until (relatively) recently
18:08:36 <andythenorth> or maybe I'm just old
18:09:02 <andythenorth> yeah, SVN is 2000
18:09:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: you are correct, cvs is a lot older than svn
18:09:11 <andythenorth> 2000 still seems 'modern' to me
18:09:42 <frosch123> 2000? i would have though 2003 or so
18:09:48 <Terkhen> frosch123: I know it is possible, I mentioned that they still use cvs after andy suggested moving from test documents to automated tests :P
18:10:00 <frosch123> but if it is 2000, then cvs might be only twice as old....
18:11:09 <andythenorth> 'shell scripts in 1986'
18:11:17 <andythenorth> 1986 is definitely 'old'
18:11:23 <andythenorth> I'm not sure I was writing code in 1986
18:11:39 <andythenorth> maybe "ch. chuckie"
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18:12:57 <frosch123> rcs is 1982, sccs is 1972
18:13:21 <XxXDukeXxX> Hi guys ;) anyone know a site where i can rent a openttd server :P?
18:13:48 <andythenorth> someone sell him a server, quick
18:13:59 <andythenorth> what happened to the plan to charge $2 for newgrfs btw?
18:14:51 <andythenorth> me and pikka invented it
18:14:56 <andythenorth> so we could be rich
18:15:11 <andythenorth> pay for download via bananas
18:15:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but as appstore OpenTTD gets 30%
18:15:31 <andythenorth> I thought rubidium would negotiate harder actually
18:15:43 <andythenorth> I assumed he had Steve Jobs-like negotiation skills, and would take 50%
18:15:56 <andythenorth> I assumed paypal fees would be 30% because Paypal are fuckers :P
18:16:14 <andythenorth> leaving me and pikka with 20% between us
18:16:28 <XxXDukeXxX> but really is there no company where i can rent a openttd server? i was @ serverFFS but i dont get the activation emails :P
18:16:54 <andythenorth> pikka has about 1m downloads, and I (with a lot of help) have 700k
18:17:03 <oskari89> The main thing was free of charges for everything :P
18:17:11 <planetmaker> XxX there are no pre-setup OpenTTD servers as far as I know
18:17:27 <planetmaker> but any VPS will do. Preferrably if it runs linux
18:17:34 <planetmaker> make for easier administration
18:17:36 <Terkhen> XxXDukeXxX: to my knowledge there is no specific company but ^
18:17:45 <XxXDukeXxX> damn :P is it easy ?
18:17:46 <oskari89> andythenorth: What would you do with that money?
18:17:59 <andythenorth> make newgrfs of course
18:18:01 <planetmaker> XxXDukeXxX: depends on where you start from
18:18:14 <Terkhen> it will be easy as soon as someone takes advantage of the admin port to write a cool program :)
18:18:20 <XxXDukeXxX> :P i just made a server on my comp but thats easy ^^
18:18:41 <andythenorth> pikka could make newgrfs full time
18:18:43 <planetmaker> XxXDukeXxX: doing it on a VPS is not (much) more difficult, if it is already a properly setup VPS
18:19:02 <andythenorth> I have too much fun in my job, but I could pay minions to make my newgrfs :P
18:19:23 <oskari89> Andythenorth: If you ever make money with those, i would see that money would be paid for artists too :P
18:19:25 <XxXDukeXxX> hm ok well then i go look for a little vps :P
18:19:48 <andythenorth> what are artists?
18:20:04 <oskari89> If someone other has contributed to your sprites?
18:20:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: doubtful. Even if we assume that 10% of the downloads would be paid for it, it'd be a few thousand €
18:20:20 <planetmaker> probably not enough for a year to live on
18:20:33 <andythenorth> we'll be rich :)
18:20:55 <andythenorth> but we'll have to spend most of it on customer support :P
18:21:01 <andythenorth> and an OS X developer
18:21:16 <frosch123> yeah, developing a proper osx would be an idea
18:22:29 <frosch123> [20:20] <andythenorth> we'll be rich :) <- instead of money you should rather reach for real values, e.g. cakes
18:23:02 <andythenorth> the joy of money is that is convertible into useful stuff
18:23:07 <planetmaker> :-) Or make ot postcard-ware
18:23:09 <andythenorth> money in itself is pretty pointless
18:23:37 <oskari89> If i had millions of money, i would hire at least one full-time coder to work with patches which i want go to trunk :P
18:23:55 <frosch123> yeah, you are reliying on always finding someone stupid enough to give you something useful for the money
18:24:05 <andythenorth> oskari89: that probably wouldn't work
18:24:13 <andythenorth> they'd still need reviewing
18:24:24 <frosch123> yup, and there is noone doing fulltime review
18:24:31 <frosch123> also it would not be ottd anymore :p
18:25:14 <oskari89> I would like to spend money (if i had loads of it) to OpenTTD developing :P
18:25:34 <Terkhen> besides developing, careful consideration of what should and should not be included is what made OpenTTD what it is now
18:25:48 <frosch123> for ottd tons of stuff is discussed. that would fail if there is only one spending all day on it
18:26:17 <frosch123> it would be a one-man-show instead of a shared-effort
18:29:33 <telanus> Is anybody active with the Afrikaans Translation?
18:29:39 <frosch123> you could pay somenoe to create graphics
18:29:50 <oskari89> Better choice would be funding current devs for to accelerate their work :P
18:29:51 <frosch123> but it would be a separate grf, no option for opengfx etc
18:30:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: fork!
18:30:23 <Terkhen> telanus: it has many untranslated strings (196) so my guess is that it does not
18:30:32 <Terkhen> let me check how much time has passed since the last translated string
18:31:10 <telanus> I could, Since it's my home Language
18:31:56 <Terkhen> that page explains what you need to do
18:31:58 <oskari89> Funding patchmakers would be another option also :P
18:32:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: yeah, it would be the death of ottd :p
18:32:22 <frosch123> funny, isn't it? if you want ottd to die, just pay someone to work on it :p
18:32:33 <andythenorth> money changes everything
18:32:56 * andythenorth once did a competition to make something with about 9 other people
18:33:07 <andythenorth> there were only enough prizes for about 6 people
18:33:12 <andythenorth> this caused...problems
18:33:18 <andythenorth> but we didn't get into it for the prizes
18:33:23 <andythenorth> we got into it for fun
18:34:04 <andythenorth> but putting all that aside...
18:34:11 <oskari89> I assume if you are going to make money with those, there will be others too following you :P
18:34:40 <andythenorth> oskari89: all grfs would be $0.99 - $1.99
18:34:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but... why?
18:34:59 <andythenorth> we'll bill that way due to currency risk in certain other currencies
18:35:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why not :D
18:35:41 <Terkhen> at least in your case ;)
18:36:11 <Terkhen> it does, along with many other rights
18:36:34 <planetmaker> OpenTTD itself has not need to make that profit. Thus we have no need to invest time in that part of the software. ... The problem with that idea is: "if you ask for money you need to guarantee service"
18:36:59 <Terkhen> telanus: last change to afrikaans was in 2012-02-27
18:37:11 <andythenorth> maybe we should try crowdfunding
18:37:15 <andythenorth> it's very popular atm
18:37:19 <planetmaker> would probably work even
18:37:31 <__ln__> People are not prepared to pay such huge amounts as $1.99.
18:37:40 <Terkhen> what would we use the money for?
18:37:58 <oskari89> And should payment be one-time only or pay for each update :P
18:38:12 <andythenorth> I think frosch123 already established that the goal is 'cake'
18:38:15 <Terkhen> cakes are not expensive
18:38:24 <Terkhen> yeah, portal did that
18:38:32 <andythenorth> also, we could buy TTDPatch and merge it
18:38:57 <andythenorth> how much does TTDP cost?
18:39:07 <andythenorth> we could buy Atari!
18:39:59 <oskari89> I assume, that when someone makes money with OpenTTD, Atari sues someone in lawsuit, copying TTD in commercial terms or so :P
18:40:11 <andythenorth> not if we pre-emptively buy Atari
18:40:16 <andythenorth> as a defensive measure
18:40:25 <andythenorth> but otherwise maybe :P
18:40:35 <Terkhen> TTDPatch is (to my knowledge) GPL, so it is compatible with OpenTTD already
18:40:53 <andythenorth> we should merge them in that case
18:40:59 <frosch123> cool, then we only need to pay someone to merge it :p
18:40:59 <Terkhen> not that assembly code will help you at all to write C++ code, besides for checking how they do things
18:41:00 <andythenorth> I requested a list of what needs to be merged
18:41:09 <andythenorth> as it is apparently a serious and important goal
18:41:17 <Terkhen> yeah, someone requested custom bridgeheads recently too :)
18:41:35 <Terkhen> what else was missing?
18:41:48 <andythenorth> Terkhen: apparently much
18:42:05 <andythenorth> apparently the list is so long that it is taking a very long time to make it
18:42:52 <Terkhen> oskari89: that page is outdated
18:43:12 <andythenorth> Captain Rand agreed it was a good idea
18:43:20 <andythenorth> and he has set the goal for version 2.0
18:43:31 <Terkhen> ~25 different town growth controls <--- for example, OpenTTD now has NoGo, which means scriptable town growth
18:43:56 <frosch123> how many town growth controls does nogo equal? :p
18:44:14 <andythenorth> tickbox feature war?
18:44:21 <andythenorth> 'this one goes to 11'
18:44:32 <Terkhen> wow, that thread is still going on?
18:44:38 <frosch123> someone should make a nogo with exactly those ttdp options :p
18:44:47 <andythenorth> nah, it went silent after I asked for a list
18:45:02 * andythenorth wonders if a new forum skin would make things seem fresher
18:45:15 * andythenorth currently uses 'silver something'
18:45:20 <andythenorth> or however it's named
18:45:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth, the thread killer
18:45:48 <andythenorth> I do that to real life conversations too
18:45:55 <andythenorth> you don't want me at your dinner party :P
18:45:59 <andythenorth> or on your table at a wedding
18:46:06 <Terkhen> I never saw you doing it here in IRC :P
18:46:21 <andythenorth> IRC doesn't encourage nitpick replies
18:46:57 <andythenorth> nitpick replies cause a particularly silly kind of argument
18:47:20 <Terkhen> exactly the kind of arguments the OpenTTD community is lacking :P
18:47:32 <oskari89> I think that if stuff is commercial (graphics), there must be 32-bit, 16-direction Full-zoom sprites :P
18:47:38 <oskari89> In case of trainsets..
18:48:02 <Terkhen> I would kill myself if I was forced to code 16 direction for OpenTTD
18:48:06 <Terkhen> the other things you mention are already in
18:48:16 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it's ok, Eddi|zuHause already did it :P
18:48:22 <andythenorth> you can live a little longer
18:48:25 <Terkhen> what, killing himself?
18:48:27 <planetmaker> Terkhen: that's only 2x what we have now
18:48:41 <planetmaker> I think Eddi did 3x
18:48:47 <Terkhen> because I'm sure no one drew 16 directions of all sprites :P
18:48:59 * andythenorth is pretty certain Eddi|zuHause just generated n
18:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i did not generate any graphics (yet)
18:49:49 <andythenorth> maybe we should generate AIs and build a server farm to test them
18:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: genetic AIs
18:50:04 <Terkhen> I can't draw at all, people writing programs that can draw is like science fiction for me :P
18:50:16 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it's no more sci-fi than a compiler
18:50:28 <andythenorth> I can't properly understand binary :P
18:50:42 <andythenorth> compilers *are* sci-fi :P
18:50:44 <oskari89> And if someone has 3d-modeling available for 32-bit 16-direction graphics, that can reduce drawing quite a lot :P
18:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there are 10 kinds of people in the world
18:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> ones that understand binary
18:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and ones that can not
18:51:03 <andythenorth> no, there are 11
18:51:18 <andythenorth> those who don't understand binary, but do understand that joke
18:51:31 <andythenorth> or are they a subclass of the second group?
18:51:34 <Terkhen> you can't truly understand the joke unless you can understand binary
18:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't truly understand recursion unless you can understand recursion
18:52:11 <andythenorth> that is a better joke
18:52:20 <andythenorth> what is recursion?
18:52:24 <andythenorth> will wikipedia tell me
18:52:40 <Terkhen> to know about recursion you need to ask about recursion
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18:53:43 <oskari89> Eddi|zuhause: Is there any screenshots of that 24-direction trainset sprites in a corner?
18:53:56 <oskari89> I would like to see that :)
18:54:47 <planetmaker> oskari89: there's even a NewGRF
18:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and then there's partial recursion and all kinds of fun :)
18:57:05 <andythenorth> Terkhen: the pixel generator isn't magical
18:57:15 <andythenorth> if a bitmap is just a sequence of pixels....
18:57:31 <andythenorth> and if those sequences have any kind of order or pattern...
18:57:33 <andythenorth> then it's trivial
18:59:18 <planetmaker> oskari89: cets is not (yet) on bananas
18:59:43 <oskari89> Is there thread for CETS?
19:00:21 <planetmaker> there#s an IRC "thread" ;-)
19:00:25 <planetmaker> but it has much noise
19:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to try to use andy's pixa, and then see if that suffices for a release
19:01:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's released
19:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: doesn't mean i know how to use it :)
19:01:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's not trival :(
19:02:02 <andythenorth> maybe it will be for you :)
19:17:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: because it's a framework, pixa needs quite a lot of scaffolding before you get the first sprites out
19:17:55 <andythenorth> the initial setup pays off when you want a lot of small variations
19:21:31 <oskari89> I see there's lots of green placeholder graphics in CETS..
19:21:53 <oskari89> Or that's the new alien train technology! :D
19:22:08 <planetmaker> soylent green express
19:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that's why i didn't open a thread yet
19:22:48 <V453000> I just clone sprites if I have some undrawn train :)
19:22:59 <V453000> so few trains look the same, but it works
19:24:00 <oskari89> Those look good in 90 degree turns :D
19:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but that only works if you have a significant number of trains drawn :)
19:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> we have only some steam engines drawn, and a minority of the wagons
19:29:49 <andythenorth> are fractals often recursive?
19:29:54 <andythenorth> is recursion scale-free?
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19:30:26 <planetmaker> fractals can be somewhat self-similar. Which can be an effect of recursion
19:32:34 <andythenorth> is andythenorth recursive?
19:35:36 <oskari89> Is there OpenTTD records thread?
19:35:42 <Terkhen> what kind of records?
19:36:13 <oskari89> Trains, largest ones :)
19:36:25 <oskari89> And with largest capacities :)
19:36:30 <Terkhen> most ingame records are held by openttdcoop, lone madmen can't compete against a group of them working in unison
19:36:43 <planetmaker> not a global one. #openttdcoop has one:
19:36:44 <planetmaker> 21:36 Webster: #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 26 | Trains: 2666 (PSG#219) - 2522 (PZG#5) - ( 3000 (PSG#180) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 200,169 (PZG#13) | World Pop: 6,150,671 (PSG#201)
19:37:25 <oskari89> I now have a 63 tile-long passenger train with 8785 passenger capacity :)
19:37:42 <planetmaker> coop certainly does not have those
19:38:02 <Terkhen> you probably have that record :P
19:38:33 <Terkhen> I once killed 2^32 - 1 passengers in a train crash, but I "cheated"
19:38:51 <Terkhen> s/-1/-the actual capacity of the train/
19:40:30 <oskari89> Did you modify passenger capacities?
19:40:47 <oskari89> For a tiny 3/8 sprite wagon that has 255 passengers? :D
19:40:58 <Terkhen> I was coding, playing with how the number of dead passengers is calculated
19:41:24 <Terkhen> and the variable underflowed
19:41:50 <oskari89> How many passengers can be fitted in 64-tile long train anyway in theory?
19:42:07 <oskari89> Passenger wagons have a 255 passenger limit per wagon, do they?
19:44:25 <planetmaker> all vehicles actually
19:45:18 <planetmaker> hm... load amount is not capacity :-)
19:45:35 <Terkhen> depends, some callbacks don't actually check the sanity of the value :P
19:45:44 <planetmaker> but also cargo capacity is a byte.
19:45:51 <oskari89> How long is 3/8 wagons in tiles?
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19:45:56 <planetmaker> and via CB36 you can probably return a word value
19:46:07 <planetmaker> 8/8 is half a tile
19:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: btw. integer numbers cannot underflow. it's an overflow in both directions. underflow is for float numbers which get rounded to 0
19:48:07 <oskari89> That's 0,1875 tiles per 3/8 wagon :P
19:48:15 <Terkhen> thanks, I wasn't sure if that was the right term :)
19:48:32 * DanMacK just realized OzTrans pulled all the North American stuff down... Talk about ridiculous
19:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's 0.125 + 0.0125 :)
19:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's 0.175 + 0.0175 :)
19:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not right either
19:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i clearly cannot calculate
19:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's 0.125 + 0.0625
19:50:28 <planetmaker> you mean the zig-zag?
19:50:41 <oskari89> Damn, i am engineer in a year or so, i should be able to calculate that..
19:51:13 <planetmaker> that frightens me now, oskari89 ;-)
19:51:13 <DorpsGek> oskari89: 1.33333333333
19:52:49 <planetmaker> so 6 pixel in -- and 3 pixel in |
19:52:51 <oskari89> That's about... 6*12 wagons?
19:53:40 <planetmaker> those numbers are for an oblique view along the grid lines
19:53:43 <oskari89> And if every has 255 capacity, that would be 18360 capacity :)
19:53:58 <planetmaker> oh. But why do you stop at 3/8 length?
19:56:17 <oskari89> Oh, is that available too?
19:58:15 <planetmaker> i you don't care about ancient OpenTTD or TTDPatch
20:02:58 * andythenorth makes a humble request
20:03:08 <andythenorth> please can we have more newgrf smoke control?
20:03:26 <andythenorth> DanMacK has drawn a very nice steam ship
20:03:37 <andythenorth> maybe we could just do one step at a time?
20:03:59 <Alberth> you want to make the ship invisible due to the smoke? :p
20:04:44 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
20:06:56 *** bremerjoe has joined #openttd
20:08:16 <bremerjoe> @ AndyTheNorth: NIce boat. Thinking about adding some tailwater? (Hope that was the right word.
20:08:47 <andythenorth> one of them is stopped ;)
20:09:11 <Alberth> is "_gen_" what I think it is ?
20:09:39 <andythenorth> unless my generator lives in Canada
20:09:49 <planetmaker> Alberth: generation
20:09:49 <andythenorth> or you think _gen_ means 'generation' ;)
20:10:02 <Alberth> I heard the Internet exists there too :)
20:10:14 <Alberth> but probably I am wrong :)
20:15:00 <V453000> andythenorth: I would probably make the grey of the trunk 1 shade brighter
20:15:04 <V453000> otherwise amazing of course :)
20:16:13 <andythenorth> DanMacK drew it ;)
20:16:37 <andythenorth> I *could* generate smoke hard-coded in the sprites
20:16:53 <Alberth> the task speaks newgrf-ish, a language which I don't know, unfortunately
20:17:41 <andythenorth> cbs are actually quite easy to hack
20:17:56 <oskari89> If that 1/8 wagon had 255 passengers, 64-tile train could have 55080 passengers :)
20:17:56 <andythenorth> you just trust whatever result you get back :P
20:18:02 <andythenorth> frosch123 could explain it :)
20:18:26 <andythenorth> we don't need to ship it in 1.2.0, I will happily test a patch for it
20:18:31 <andythenorth> could be first big feature for 1.3
20:18:44 *** KritiK_ has joined #openttd
20:19:58 <planetmaker> the art to mix food and other ingredients and come up with a tasty meal
20:20:19 <DDR> Ah, I'd always wondered where this 'food' came from.
20:21:00 <planetmaker> you mean the green stuff, soylent green stuff? I guess from "factories"
20:21:37 <DDR> So, they have cooking factories? How convenient, I was just getting a bit hungry.
20:21:49 <DDR> I was down to saltines. :(
20:22:50 <oskari89> I'm hungry, i'm going to have a cheddar-ham sandwich.
20:23:31 <DDR> Anyhow, with this mystery solved, andythenorth -- what is this feature?
20:23:39 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
20:24:25 <andythenorth> for newgrf vehicles
20:24:28 <DDR> Like, the little puffs that come up from a labouring engine?
20:26:16 <planetmaker> but andy just went through his personal cupboard of shelved newgrf features and pulled a random one out :-P
20:26:44 <planetmaker> the shelf of 'nice to have' ones
20:31:54 <V453000> by the way ... is there any chance vehicle_type_id could be available for purchase menu?
20:32:26 <DDR> Hey, quick question, how do I remove AIs from in-game?
20:32:46 <planetmaker> maybe followed by the number
20:33:07 <DDR> Ah, perhap I should be more clear. :P How do I remove it from the list of AIs which can start?
20:33:07 <Rubidium> V453000: I don't see the point/use for it
20:33:17 <DDR> Though, funnily enough, that was my next question. :P
20:33:37 <DDR> I've downloaded a few, but I'd like to remove some of the road-hogs.
20:33:38 <Rubidium> V453000: as all vehicles within the same purchase menu are of the same vehicle type
20:33:59 <planetmaker> there is a way, but I don't know how, DDR :-)
20:34:26 <andythenorth> V453000: you're doing something with articulated chains?
20:34:31 <planetmaker> Rubidium: in NML that's the engineID
20:34:54 <V453000> I just have one switch block which is meant to control all speeds of all vehicles for example
20:34:56 <Rubidium> V453000: or you mean the engine type, but then that's just an internal ID that has no relation with the actual ID you used in your NewGRF
20:35:06 <V453000> which it does, but the purchase menu cannot accept that
20:35:17 <andythenorth> V453000: you need templating?
20:35:32 <V453000> cant do that under windows eh
20:36:04 <DDR> Where are downloaded newgrfs kept?
20:36:18 <planetmaker> readme section 4 tells you :-)
20:36:24 <andythenorth> V453000: you could write a massive branching switch
20:36:33 <DDR> I skimmed the readme a bit much, I guess.
20:36:47 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Guest104
20:36:49 <V453000> andythenorth: tell me more :)
20:36:53 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
20:37:07 <planetmaker> I even remember the line from my browser's URL. So often this question is asked ;-)
20:37:08 <andythenorth> either NML can get the engineID as a var, or if it can't do that in buy menu, you just hard-code them
20:37:13 <andythenorth> because *you* know the IDs :P
20:37:20 <andythenorth> it's not ideal though
20:37:42 <andythenorth> sounds to me like you're working around the lack of templates :)
20:37:52 <andythenorth> but if your problem is simple, I guess it will work
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20:39:23 <andythenorth> if you're nearly finished with your grf, it's probably not worth learning templating now
20:39:31 <andythenorth> if you have a lot more to do...you might consider it
20:49:36 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
20:58:56 * drac_boy is sorta half zzz but still ok now -_-
21:04:07 * FLHerne fails to fix another assertion fail
21:04:33 <andythenorth> hello Pikka bird
21:05:10 <andythenorth> until we bring the $2 charge in
21:05:15 <drac_boy> nice one andythenorth
21:05:16 <andythenorth> I think a boat for $2 is a bargain
21:05:29 <andythenorth> and I'm so generous, I'll include about 30 more
21:05:51 <andythenorth> we had a godwin event
21:06:22 <planetmaker> but he didn't lose
21:07:35 <bremerjoe> I heard AndyTheNorth even provides free wakes with the boat! :)
21:08:12 <Terkhen> I'll buy your NewGRFs for -2$
21:09:39 * andythenorth used to have a monopoly game where the game respected -ve amounts, but the computer players saw them as +ve
21:10:27 <andythenorth> so you could offer -2,000 for Pall Mall, the computer player would sell it to you as a good deal, and send you the money :P
21:26:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: if i purchase support for heqs, does that include playing the game for me? and if, how many games per month do i get with the standard service package?
21:26:48 <andythenorth> frosch123 "there's no fixed limit, but we'll let you know if you're using more than is average for your package, compared to other customers"
21:27:14 <andythenorth> "it may be that you'd benefit from an upgraded support package"
21:27:37 <andythenorth> number of games is unlimited
21:27:52 <andythenorth> you can also play multiple games at once if you have multiple openttd
21:27:57 <frosch123> no, i asked how many you would play for me
21:28:23 <andythenorth> we can tailor a package to your needs
21:28:35 <andythenorth> some customers find it more convenient to pay day rates
21:29:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: what volume of games do you need?
21:29:46 <bremerjoe> gotta go. Good night everybody!
21:29:47 <andythenorth> and how long does a game last?
21:30:13 <frosch123> a 2kx2k map with everything connected
21:30:24 <drac_boy> is it too complicated to ever think about or can you have one industry with randomized inputs?
21:30:36 <andythenorth> drac_boy: it's a cb
21:30:45 <andythenorth> 14D or somewhere near there
21:30:48 <frosch123> you can randomise it on construction
21:30:54 <andythenorth> it breaks the cargo chain map in game
21:31:01 <frosch123> i.e. pick 3 out of many
21:31:05 <andythenorth> 'breaks' == renders incorrect
21:31:29 <drac_boy> andythenorth I was actually thinking of third-y (whats a word that comes after 'secondary' anyway?) industry that could accept some cargos if the player choosed to
21:31:43 <andythenorth> secondary-secondary
21:32:01 <frosch123> yay, i spelled it the same as andy \o/
21:32:02 <andythenorth> tertiary is strictly about services etc when I last looked it up
21:32:09 <andythenorth> but I usually mean 'third in the chain' :P
21:32:55 <drac_boy> so well yeah one way it could go was you start a new map and then you see that the port accepts hmm lets say COAL,PAPR .. so you could decide to deliver to there instead of to the normal powerplant/printworks industry
21:33:17 <drac_boy> its not really doing anything to the industry chain other than adding a new dropoff point for it
21:35:55 <drac_boy> andythenorth so any comment on that sort of port-or-so optional industry with randomized inputs?
21:36:09 <andythenorth> it's an idea that has been around a long time
21:36:23 <andythenorth> I was going to do it in FIRS but never got around to it
21:36:27 <andythenorth> players will probably like it
21:36:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: roadtypes!
21:37:15 <drac_boy> andythenorth ah ok, so it wasn't just me wondering about that idea, thanks
21:37:29 <drac_boy> well I'll see if I want try introduce it or not :)
21:37:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: newgrf smoke!
21:38:01 <andythenorth> [is maybe something you would write a spec for?]
21:38:15 <andythenorth> all your newgrfs have all the smoke they need :(
21:38:24 <andythenorth> I coded a cb once
21:38:28 <andythenorth> it never got included
21:38:48 <Pikka> everything needs to produce six kinds of smoke constantly!
21:38:50 <andythenorth> I did the other version of 'wagon can be attached' or something
21:40:44 <Pikka> I think my puffer is somewhat larger scale than your ships?
21:41:22 * DanMacK thought it scaled out close though
21:41:27 <andythenorth> and somewhat the inverse of your 'make everything smaller trend'
21:41:32 <Pikka> my plans with ships, such as they were, were to have a rather smaller maximum size than FEESH
21:41:44 <andythenorth> DanMacK: I have it coded in fish, but it doesn't look right alongside the others tbh :(
21:41:49 <andythenorth> with all due respect to mr bird
21:43:11 <DanMacK> Well, they're about 70-90 feet long roughly...
21:43:20 <drac_boy> andythenorth btw it was 14B/14C .. only mentions that its for patch 2.6+ .. does ottd have it too?
21:43:42 <andythenorth> DanMacK: it's about the right length, bit fat, bit high
21:43:44 <DanMacK> So that'd be small or large trader size?
21:43:50 <andythenorth> small - the Rockall
21:44:00 <drac_boy> hmm random outputs....not sure I want to try that
21:44:02 <andythenorth> historically they are the same line of ships
21:44:30 <Pikka> bit fat, bit high. sounds like my cousins from up north.
21:44:39 * andythenorth doesn't mean to be rude :)
21:44:55 <andythenorth> the Rockall freighter is basically a VIC
21:45:26 <andythenorth> based on RMAS Bee
21:46:06 <Pikka> andy, when are we getting all kinds of fancy load graphics for FISH?
21:46:53 * DanMacK thought it was maytember
21:47:06 <andythenorth> could be maytember
21:47:20 <andythenorth> they are quite sticky uppy
21:47:33 * andythenorth thinks they might look a bit silly :P
21:48:15 * andythenorth had better put the recycling out and go to bed
21:48:22 <andythenorth> tomorrow is another day of toil
21:50:07 <drac_boy> I know I've asked a bit about push-pull before probably but I'm wondering about something a bit different...
21:50:57 <drac_boy> articulated trains that wouldn't take on any seperate wagons .. can they be operated in push-pull or because its not a locomotive+wagon consist it just wouldn't quite work?
21:52:22 <andythenorth> it's just varaction 2 afaict
21:52:30 <andythenorth> unless I miss something
21:53:11 <Pikka> as usual, andythenorth misses little
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22:05:46 * drac_boy is going to eat out now
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23:22:16 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
23:22:56 <drac_boy> pikka so anyhow the reason I had asked about articulated set in push-pull was because I was thinking of certain fixed trains that never turn around more or less to put it that way
23:23:48 <drac_boy> especially rack electric trains which more or less often were just coach-loco or coach-coach-loco for most of their trips
23:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably has a different reason. on steep tracks, it's customary to always have the engine at the lower end, since it has the highest braking power
23:43:49 <drac_boy> eddi well I could think of a reason to have it always pointing on the lower side (aka push-push) for some arctic map that would have one town on the mountain flattop and next town all the way down by the coastline ... many of the times its a 7+ tiles straight climb
23:44:14 <drac_boy> could be an interesting alternative gameplay where you can just build a straight slow line rather than taking the long zigzag way around
23:44:39 <drac_boy> but I'm just thinking about the idea tho. doubt how useful it could be to actually implent
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23:47:32 * drac_boy has more pressing matters anyhow :-s
23:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather have actually backwards-driving trains instead of magic newgrf trickery in those cases
23:55:09 <drac_boy> well...problem is that you can't run a consist backward without the push-pull or creating a 1hp/1kn locomotive as a wagon and put the actual locomotive on the rear
23:55:19 <drac_boy> unless theres something else I hadn't thought of
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