IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-07
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00:05:44 <Snail_> drac_boy: there's also the "BoBo" case when each axle has an engine of its own
00:07:47 <drac_boy> Snail_ you mean like four small genset-sized engines onboard rather than one large powerplant?
00:08:35 <Snail_> well, if we speak of electrics, most of the modern ones have as many engines as there are axles
00:08:43 <Snail_> for diesels, the thing is a bit different
00:09:12 <drac_boy> which of that reminds me, at least one or more of the older uk diesels were twin-engine with with seperate front/rear truck drives. could be a little amusing if one engine was knocked out leaving you with only 2 axles for traction than four
00:10:26 <drac_boy> and yeah electrics are different, they can do whatever they want to limited by the size of the wires
00:11:11 <Snail_> wow! were those locos diesel-electric or diesel-hydraulic?
00:15:14 <drac_boy> the usa GG1 as I think I recall had three transformers, each served their own four traction motors.. so considering its 2-C-C-2 axles arrangement that meant transformer A drove the first two axles.. and C drove the last two axles while B drove the two seperate middle ones
00:15:40 <drac_boy> that was a total of 12 motors yeah
00:16:08 <Snail_> so theoretically it was a 2 CoCo 2
00:16:16 <drac_boy> as for diesel-hydraulic or diesel-electric I don't even remember, you'll have to really ask someone from uk instead :)
00:17:19 <drac_boy> I do know that the Budd RDC had it a bit more 'versiable' (not sure I spelled that right?) ....
00:18:26 <drac_boy> it was like two diesel-hydraulic engines under the belly.. each drove their own truck and there was a simple (not as simple as just an on/off switchbar but you get the idea I guess tho) disconnection in case only one or even both engines were offline
00:19:10 <drac_boy> although rebuilds usually resulted in one single powerful plant for both trucks on the other hand
00:20:22 <drac_boy> snail_ mind you rebuilt or not these RDC could go at quite a blast speed if the tracks were in good shape :P
00:20:46 <Snail_> really? where were they used?
00:21:39 <drac_boy> well it was called Rail Diesel Coach/Car for a good reason .. cheap low cost. so they could go just about anywhere except northeast usa (where long yet full trains often ruled, you know)
00:22:36 <drac_boy> sometimes you could actually have these cases where you had a Y shaped route ... get a normal little train of one or two F7 and a few coaches... then throw in the freerolling rdc on the tail ... at the last 'shared' station the rdc comes off and starts up then heads off on its own light leg while the normal train continues onward
00:22:51 <drac_boy> made sense if the 2nd leg didn't have enough loads to warrent a normal train
00:23:12 <drac_boy> that make sense to you Snail_?
00:26:45 <Snail_> yep, like a train with 2 destinations, and the tail splits from the rest of the consist at the fork statin
00:27:12 <drac_boy> there are some photos of such consist with odd mash of rdc's in them :)
00:27:33 <Snail_> wow! must be fun to see
00:28:17 <drac_boy> Snail_ the more unusual one I just about recall seeing a photo of tho was that B&O had two rdc's that ran alone on their own on a 600 miles route. must had been really worthy connections to retain such a schedule with only the single units themself
00:29:10 <drac_boy> I mean can you imagine 600 miles of occassional halts with <100 seat capacity the whole way? :)
00:30:30 <drac_boy> Snail_ which of that reminds me of one thing that seem to be quite specific to uk and I just don't quite understand it. you ever heard of 'slip coaches'?
00:30:54 <Snail_> 600 miles with a single unit consist? :O
00:31:05 <Snail_> which cities were they connecting?
00:31:21 <drac_boy> not sure, its on B&O so it was around the east coast near north
00:31:33 <Snail_> nope, never heard of slip coaches
00:33:17 <drac_boy> well as far as I know, 'slip coaches' are basically self-brakeable coaches with rapid uncoupling. what happens is as the express train passes the signal (or some other landmark to place the distance spot) the rear placed slip coach is cut off... and as the train fly past the station nonstop the slowing slip coach actually comes to a stop there
00:33:39 <drac_boy> and usually picked up by a local train on a following schedule whether its in same direction or not
00:34:12 <drac_boy> seem like a crazy way to save time between main endpoints for the express train itself :)
00:35:26 <Snail_> wow! never heard of it. Sounds like it must be timed dead right to make it work well though...
00:35:47 <drac_boy> and Snail_ some express trains actually slip-ped twice or a few times depending on the route and schedule
00:35:54 <Snail_> or at least there should be a brakeman in the slip coach to make sure it stops right at the station
00:36:39 <drac_boy> yeah I think they did use some kind of manual brakes...because as I recall if there was any kind of vision restriction (fogs usually) the train had to actually make a full halt and just try eat up the delays enroute
00:36:55 <drac_boy> obviously they did not want to slip when they couldn't clearly see the stations
00:38:38 <drac_boy> Snail_ mind you whether fog slowed down the running time or not slipping was sometimes an effective way to carry more passengers without needing to book a larger locomotive
00:39:29 <Snail_> because a larger train needed to be pulled only for part of the journey?
00:39:45 <Snail_> like, the train became lighter and lighter as it slipped away more carriages...
00:39:47 <drac_boy> eg if an Atlantic was rated for oh I dunno 300 tons over the route and most of the early leg is relatively flat then they could put 380 tons instead knowing that the tail 80 tons would be slipped enroute
00:40:52 <drac_boy> btw even then even if a train did not have slip coaches you still sometimes could have these moments where a pilot is used on short hilly stretches
00:41:13 <drac_boy> and for the record it wasn't too rare to have small locomotives help the A4 Mallard as crazy as that may sound to some people :)
00:42:26 <drac_boy> one photo I know I've seen was of an A4 Mallard hauling express fish train while being pilot by a 4-4-0. that sure says something about needing a few more ounce of traction to keep to the fast schedule? :)
00:43:20 <drac_boy> I imagine the fish were located in through-brake express goods vans to be behind an A4 after all
00:44:13 <drac_boy> Snail_ you interested in an unusual steam locomotive tender? :)
00:45:16 <Snail_> wow! an old 4-4-0 helping a mallard :)
00:45:38 <Snail_> sure! I actually know of a few Italian steamers that had strange tenders
00:45:43 <drac_boy> Snail_ well quite a number of 4-4-0 were known to be express locomotives with large drive wheels so
00:46:09 <Snail_> for instance the Class 470's was basically a 2-axle mail van, since the engine itself had a small compartment to keep coal in (almost like a tank engine)
00:46:30 <Snail_> yes, but in the older times... 4-4-0 started becoming obsolete around the 1920s
00:46:49 <drac_boy> and btw Snail_ guess what kind of tender takes some of the exhaust from the pistons upfront and cool it down back into water to extend the water range? :)
00:47:17 <Snail_> never heard of such a tender...
00:47:35 <drac_boy> they were call condensing tender as thats what it was .. turn some of the free hot steam back into warm water
00:48:08 <drac_boy> africa had a few of them .. and its not just that but even germany (for being a small non-tropical country eh?) had at least two classes that used them too
00:49:12 <Snail_> interesting, which classes were they?
00:50:07 <drac_boy> so in theory if the tender had a 60 gallon water capacity then you take a little (say 4 gallon of water and 6 tons of coal less) out to make space for the condensing gears ... you then theriocally could get more than 80 gallons out of the same locomotive after all (assuming it was a long run to have that much steam to condense)
00:50:37 <drac_boy> sometimes it made more sense than trying to build remote water towers after all
00:51:37 <Snail_> right, especially in less-frequented lines
00:51:45 <drac_boy> easy way to tell if a steam locomotive has condensing tender, there's radiators and fans cladded into the tender shell
00:51:59 <Snail_> assuming the costs of a more complex tender offset those of building new water towers
00:54:01 <drac_boy> some had the fans located on sides instead but its still the same concept otherwise
00:54:22 <drac_boy> and yeah this model is a good one, it shows the tender-return steam pipe lines
00:56:08 <drac_boy> Snail_ mind you certain locomotives also had the safety valve rerouted into the condenser so if you kept firing it too hot for a long time you wouldn't hear the usual nonstop hiss but you'll probably hear the tender fans running nonstop tho :)
00:56:33 <drac_boy> not sure why they decided to do that so, don't ask me
00:56:50 <Rhamphoryncus> I read up on condensers recently. I think they retained 80-90% of the water
00:57:22 <Snail_> wow! pretty impressive
00:57:24 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus yeah I wouldn't be too surprised..I guess the small loss would be from pipe evaporation into the cooler air
00:57:25 <Rhamphoryncus> But it was complicated, required lots of maintenance, and the technology was slow to mature
00:57:42 <Snail_> of course... and were they mounted on simple expansion locos? or compounds too?
00:58:12 <Rhamphoryncus> They also required an exhaust fan on the flue, which was a big part of the problem
00:58:13 <Snail_> if compounds, they should have taken the steam from the low pressure cylinders, so perhaps their performance would not have been so great (more dissipation)
00:58:33 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus I know of at least one railroad having partially stripped their condensing tenders and put a simple cylinder water tank together with modified coal bunker frame in its place instead. obviously they liked the loco but didn't quite want the tenders as-is so much
00:58:53 <Rhamphoryncus> The technology came too late is my impression
00:59:35 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus I wouldn't be too surprised if a live steam modeller could actually build one for real. who knows if the smaller scale would help or not
01:00:07 <Rhamphoryncus> It needed another generation or two to hit sufficient maturity, and only then could you actually remove all the extra water stops from normal lines
01:00:34 <Rhamphoryncus> And diesel came around
01:00:38 <drac_boy> I do know that one example of a triplex steam locomotive was a total flop (the big boiler was still too insufficent to raise enough pressure) .. but yet I know someone actually built a live steam scale version of it and was pushing at least 400psi through its boiler. and it actually really worked
01:01:00 <drac_boy> 400psi would had been WAY too high to try do on a real scale (190-240psi was the norm at the time for large locomotives)
01:01:33 <Rhamphoryncus> A condensing locomotive done today would be easy to get right
01:02:10 <drac_boy> if there was one thing that at least did get off to a good start...it was thanks to a particular swiss man...mallets anyone? :)
01:02:14 <Rhamphoryncus> Hell, it'd be off the shelf technology
01:02:56 <Rhamphoryncus> You may not *see* steam locomotives anymore, but they still exist, just in stationary forms
01:04:52 <Rhamphoryncus> The Rankine cycle and whatnot
01:06:00 <drac_boy> I may be wrong but I think the garrat was probably the best form of rail steam locomotive that you could recreate. it may have six or eight drive axles but it was still nimble around sharp curves as it had little overhang (save for a bit on the inside side of a curve)
01:06:28 <drac_boy> and the fuels acted as traction weight (unlike with normal tender locomotives) too
01:08:47 <drac_boy> as for stationary steam....there's alway steam heating too btw...even for older houses with concrete-backed floors as well
01:09:18 <drac_boy> newer radiant heating are now usually some kind of heat-holding fluids pumped through electric or oil heaters tho
01:09:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Garratt looks like a nice design, in a "face only a mother could love" kind of way ;)
01:10:01 <drac_boy> well I don't care for the look .. I just like it running :p
01:10:34 <drac_boy> if you want something small .. just look up the beyers-peacock K1 ... it was basically only a 0-4-0+0-4-0 ... so it could do just about anything even squeal around very sharp village street ;)
01:10:42 <Rhamphoryncus> It looks like a fairly small locomotive. Is that just because the boiler is separate?
01:12:20 <drac_boy> what 'small' you looking at btw?
01:13:17 <Rhamphoryncus> I never said small ;)
01:13:42 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd claim I'm asleep but I'm not
01:14:19 <drac_boy> heh well the africa garratt might look like it had a shorty boiler but it sure had a large firebox still so that wasn't too much problem .. they were not meant to run that fast anyhow..they could haul very long trains tho
01:14:42 <drac_boy> doubleheading wasn't too unheard of... thats 16 drive axles on one train :p
01:15:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm spoiled by the big boy
01:15:58 <drac_boy> heh well it was not really the biggest but thats up for 'careful' debate tho :p
01:16:20 <drac_boy> just as much as that the BR05 really holds the speed record as it didn't have any downslope help ;)
01:17:13 <Rhamphoryncus> Point is that garratt looks tiny in comparison
01:18:00 <drac_boy> well Rhamphoryncus I'm sure that a french sedan would look 'small' compared to an american sedan :)
01:18:06 <Snail_> well, I'm spoiled by André Chapelon :)
01:18:35 <Snail_> his 242A was probably the best steamer ever made... so efficient ad powerful
01:19:01 <Snail_> it even beat any existing electric of the time
01:19:32 <drac_boy> afk for a while anyhow (and if you're gone Rhamphoryncus then see you another time for more random discussions :P )
01:31:36 <Rhamphoryncus> And the Iore as the highest HP (for a pair)
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01:44:58 <drac_boy> so what you doing Snail_?
01:46:21 <Snail_> now? coding a few trains for my set :)
01:46:50 <Snail_> but you can still see some pics
01:48:30 <drac_boy> some sort of french light rail trainset?
01:49:34 <drac_boy> didn't take long to guess that its narrow gauge because of the odd "skinny-tall" look :)
01:51:39 <Snail_> yes, I'm working on the narrow gauge part of the French set
01:53:39 <drac_boy> lol I actually had that thread noted since I wanted to note how someone else would draw NG wagons just so I had some idea of dimensions for mine
01:55:24 <Snail_> well, my scale is similar as SG, but I draw the vehicles to be narrower (duh)
01:55:37 <drac_boy> btw french reminds me of a story in a recent modeller magazine...
01:55:47 <Snail_> so the diagonal views are missing a few sprites w.r.t. the normal size
01:55:58 <drac_boy> it was an article on a french/switzerland border railroad that had one unique thing...
01:55:59 <Snail_> *a few pixels, not sprites... sorry
01:56:39 <Snail_> st. gervais - vallorcine which then continued to the martigny-châtelard Swiss line?
01:57:03 <drac_boy> rather than building slow ineffective rack rails for the steep route...the man thought of something quite unusual...every single rolling stock were powered ... eventually later it was caluculated that for each three powered there could be one unpowered and a few extra wagons were built that way
01:57:25 <Snail_> yes! it's the line I mentioned :)
01:57:35 <drac_boy> now the line is worked by a 'normal' 2-unit (with special gangways to allow it to work the sharp curves) electric trainset
01:57:53 <Snail_> the first rolling stock was the Z200 and it was made by powered wagons that could transport anything
01:58:17 <drac_boy> yeah, btw the photos showed that even the unpowered wagons still had pickup shoes on them for obvious electrical purposes...especially carriage lights
01:58:26 <Snail_> it's fun you mentioned it. The original rolling stock for that line is already drawn and coded in my set
01:58:39 <drac_boy> still, that was the first and probably only time I have ever heard of self-powered "trains"
02:00:33 <drac_boy> btw Snail_ that thing that is id as #23 in the first post of yours .. is that one of these few examples of a railbus hauling a "road trailer"?
02:00:58 <drac_boy> i always found these a bit amusing..looking like a road bus+trailer running on rails instead .. even if the hitch was not always the same type used tho
02:01:41 <drac_boy> btw even the DB 'Pig' sometimes did that too (not sure if that was before or after they added the rooftop cargo rack tho)
02:02:05 <Snail_> yes, it's an A80D railbus hauling a mail trailer
02:02:05 <drac_boy> if you have to ask why it was called a Pig you obviously can't figure out its noses :P
02:02:27 <Snail_> there also were 1-axle trailers :D but a bit too small for the TTD scale
02:02:37 <drac_boy> probably too low capacity too
02:02:58 <Snail_> yeah... a handful of bags of mail
02:03:22 <Snail_> btw #24 is the original rolling stock of the line you mentioned
02:03:37 <drac_boy> still...even the HST125 only had a 8 mails capacity in each ends....so I dunno :)
02:04:49 <drac_boy> Snail_ anything to note about #8? I'm just wondering if its me or the loco looks a little odd shape
02:05:20 <drac_boy> at least #15 is only simply running backward isn't it? (cab seem to be to the left)
02:06:34 <Snail_> #8 is a rackrail train
02:07:12 <Snail_> so it always runs with the cab forward, I'm working to make it push-pull
02:07:27 <k-man> whats a good scenario to have a look at?
02:07:38 <Snail_> #13 is another Alpine train, on the "La Mure" line, which almost always ran cab-forward
02:07:51 <drac_boy> btw I always found the push-pull feature sometimes a little "buggered"
02:08:24 <Snail_> it's just a hack, unluckily you can't reverse the whole train... only the loco and the last wagon
02:08:42 <drac_boy> if you're using it with a solid train (eg five similar coaches) it seem to work as intended but ..if you have a mixed train it can look wonky ... eg if you had a train that was formed of four doubledeck followed by two standard coaches .. it looks weird in reverse with coach-doubles-coach-loco
02:08:54 <Snail_> so there will be problems whenever the train is not exactly symmetrical, and even when the loco/driving trailer is a 2- (or more) -part engine
02:09:10 <Snail_> yes, exactly. That's the point
02:09:27 <drac_boy> Snail_ btw that reminds me of something else a lot more closer to me....
02:09:34 <Snail_> so I'm planning to allow push-pull only if the train is perfectly symmetrical
02:10:21 <drac_boy> there was one particular operation in montreal,quebec that would had gotten the "safety board" VERY upset these days....
02:10:40 <drac_boy> tank steam hauled commuters....and guess what happened at the end of the line to save a lot of moves and some time? ....
02:11:47 <drac_boy> the train just ran near station then.... set some brakes on .. cut off the wagon ... and locomotive scat onto second track as the wagons grind into the platform .. then locomotive just putter back onto first track on the 'proper' end and wait
02:11:57 <drac_boy> who need to bother wasting time doing a normal runaround? :P
02:13:02 <drac_boy> well they did it everyday for a very long time mind you
02:13:28 <Snail_> luckily no accident happened... imagine if the wagons' brakes had failed
02:13:53 <Snail_> without the engine to stop them they would have kept going on and on
02:14:11 <drac_boy> well if it had failed then the loco wouldn't had been much help as it obviously wouldn't had braked for the switch in first place
02:14:51 <drac_boy> the switch was only a few feet outside the station platforms just to give you an idea of how little speed it had left before the wagons were on their own
02:15:08 <Snail_> I see... that's more reasonable
02:15:34 <drac_boy> so I imagine that if for some weird reason the brakes didn't fully catch on .. it'll only just smoke by at maybe 20-40km/h ... and end up fouling the line waiting to be hauled back in
02:16:09 <drac_boy> still, the fact they did it daily to save the long runaround moves I just ... don't know what to say :P
02:16:45 <drac_boy> Snail_ back to france tho...
02:17:15 <drac_boy> one of the major commuter station (paris I think I'm sure) was a busy one with 100% tank locomotives working...but there was another quirk in its timetables..
02:17:43 <drac_boy> once in a while there was a goods train set out on one of the platform for flowers for the shops located on the street level shops below the station
02:18:15 <drac_boy> and at night there sometimes would be other trains too...made sense..very few commuters around so why not use the platforms for hand freights in the meanwhile
02:18:22 <Snail_> really?? never heard of it
02:19:00 <Snail_> well, freight trains used to regularly run around the "little belt" line that fed all of the stations in the city
02:19:11 <Snail_> and it was just around the center of paris
02:19:40 <Snail_> so it could well have happened that a few of them actually stopped in one of the large busy stations (perhaps St-Lazare)
02:20:13 <drac_boy> theres one thing that I just like for some reason I don't know why.....trains and cars sharing the same road as if they didn't care much for each others' strange presence ... thats metre gauge in switzerland for you :p
02:21:49 <drac_boy> although at least one of these smaller line had one slight crazy spot where the single adhersion worked line actually ran onto the right lane in both directions on the narrow curve .. so you could imagine what it must be like to have the 2 cars running "up the wrong way" for a few hundred meters :)
02:22:20 <Snail_> lots of old NG lines shared the road with the cars
02:22:30 <drac_boy> I mean if the train was heading south it would follow with the cars... but if it was heading north .. well...the cars better STOP!
02:22:38 <Snail_> they were all dismantled soon after WW2 for obvious reasons
02:23:01 <Snail_> yep :) they were more like tramways than proper trains
02:23:41 <drac_boy> and even SBB itself has a few places where the "station" is really the widened street itself....and these see just about any trains even loco-hauled ones
02:24:53 <Snail_> yep, perhaps in small villages
02:25:11 <drac_boy> not really small at all actually :p
02:25:16 <Snail_> it was common to see such situations in rural or mountainous areas where it was just cheaper to build the tracks directly on the road
02:26:57 <drac_boy> but btw before I forget one particular town with some tram/rail trackage finally saw the end of rail post delivery 2-3 years ago when before that date the old small 2-axle sliding door goods vans were attached to the rear
02:27:19 <drac_boy> goes to show how much of street running switzerland liked to do and still does up to this year
02:28:34 <drac_boy> Snail_ mind there there is another kind of road/rail sharing thats a lot more common around the world...
02:28:35 <Snail_> they still used 2-axle good vans? where in switzerland was it?
02:28:50 <drac_boy> road+rail = bridge with only one single lane
02:29:01 <drac_boy> sometimes the road has first rights .. other times the rail has the first right
02:29:15 <drac_boy> but in a few places its just a "whoever was there first gets it"
02:30:13 <drac_boy> well Snail_ this old goods van was sometimes on the tail of a tram so .. I guess it made sense to pick such a small wagon as long as it was still in good shape
02:32:18 <Snail_> sometimes even in some cities in europe they're using really old rolling stock on the tram lines to perform servicing or maintenance tasks
02:33:09 <Snail_> in milan for instance it might not be so rare to see a small 2-axle car from the early '900's pulling an ancient bogie flat trailer with some service material on it
02:35:29 <drac_boy> mind you last I heard they still borrow museum trains to do rail grinding tasks.. especially netherland
02:35:44 <drac_boy> a bit weird purpose but whatever
02:36:34 <Snail_> cheaper than buying new rolling stock, perhaps :)
02:36:44 <drac_boy> anyway Snail_ how often you on? :P
02:37:12 <Snail_> usually at this time since i'm currently in canada
02:37:20 <drac_boy> ok maybe see you again tomorrow to talk about so much again ok? :P
02:37:24 <drac_boy> I'm going to bed now
02:38:42 * drac_boy throws a New York Centeral Pullman pillow into Snail_'s face and runs off laughing (heh heh)
02:48:14 <Nat_aS> does anybody know what kind of algorithm sim city 2000 uses to make maps?
02:48:27 <Nat_aS> because it's just about perfect in terms of heighmaps
02:49:18 <Nat_aS> valleys you can built things in, and mountains and hills to work around.
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05:29:47 <Afdal> Hey can anyone tell me if tropical wood lumber mills increase in output over time the same way as other industries?
05:31:36 <Afdal> well the probability for them increasing, whatever
05:40:46 <Nat_aS> I don't notice them fluxuating much at all
05:40:51 <Nat_aS> but I might not be paying attention
05:41:19 <Nat_aS> they seem to the the most reliable industry ever though.
05:41:37 <Nat_aS> but that might be because there cargo is so un-dense
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05:43:59 <Afdal> Yeah, it's seemed to me like they don't increase production like others
05:44:09 <Afdal> But the wiki gives no mention to it
05:45:22 <Nat_aS> never seen them decrese either.
05:45:35 <Nat_aS> they are not really balanced at all
05:45:57 <Nat_aS> but nice if you want lots of money to fund other less profitable routes.
05:46:12 <Nat_aS> also it encourages building long traints
05:46:32 <Nat_aS> it can be hard to make a train longer than 4 tiles with other cargos
05:46:44 <Nat_aS> but 6 seems to be the ideal length for wood.
05:46:55 <Afdal> Not at all; you just need to be transporting them long enough to up their production to that level
05:46:59 <Nat_aS> even longer on some maps if there are more than one close together.
05:47:19 <Afdal> other non-sub-tropical wood industries
05:47:25 <Afdal> Their production gets insane
05:47:26 <Nat_aS> I like to build and forget
05:47:38 <Nat_aS> build one train, then ignore it forever
05:47:55 <Nat_aS> maybe automaticly upgrade all the engines at once in the train manager
05:48:13 <Nat_aS> although sometimes I will notice a route is busy and will build a second train
05:48:36 <Nat_aS> but in general I like 4 tile long for non wood, and 6 tile long for routes with wood
05:48:53 <Nat_aS> sometimes 8 tile long, but that makes building stations hard
05:49:03 <Nat_aS> esp because of how my large stations work
05:49:37 <Afdal> I used to sort of change my train sizes based on cargo type
05:49:48 <Nat_aS> I just sort of stack terminus stations the long way, with depot/crossing gaps between segments, and a pair of non station tracks in the center
05:50:12 <Nat_aS> trains enter the megastation, find an open platform, load/unload, find a depot, maintain, and then leave
05:50:14 <Afdal> But I generally pick a single size and stick with it now, or make the train as long as it needs to be for current production (without any planning)
05:51:16 <Rubidium> the lumber mill's limited by the amount of trees it can chop
05:51:43 <Afdal> But does its specific production ever increase?
05:52:03 <Afdal> Or is it pretty much just ~180 lumber max with the best tree coverage?
05:52:03 <Rubidium> the per tree chopped one? No
05:52:37 <Nat_aS> yeah, it's based around a gimmick and not really balanced.
05:52:46 <Afdal> Aren't you a dev Rubidium?
05:52:53 <Nat_aS> i kind of like the gimmick though, and wish it were refined.
05:53:00 <Rubidium> every 512/74 days +45
05:53:12 <Rubidium> is what the source code says
05:53:19 <Afdal> Oh so it does increase over time?
05:53:56 <Rubidium> no, the +45 is the produced cargo in total
05:54:29 <Afdal> So it never changes then? Unless you run out of trees of course
05:55:37 <Afdal> I get the feeling the fluctuations I do see are just part of the random output for that month, but it never leaves the "level" that it's at
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05:56:07 <Rubidium> Afdal: the 'random' output is due to +45 every 512/74 days
05:56:14 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 6.91891891892
05:56:28 <Afdal> Bummer, I was looking forward to a glorious 2000-output tropical wood game
05:56:42 <Rubidium> and neither 28, 29, 30 or 31 are dividable by ~6.9
06:01:14 <Afdal> Do tropical lumber mills lose out to other industries?
06:01:38 <Afdal> considering output-income
06:01:56 <Afdal> Say I've got a maximum output copper mine
06:07:19 <Rhamphoryncus> If you want a high volume line.. just get multiple industries near each other, use a feeder if necessary, and have one line
06:11:40 <Nat_aS> that's why I hate random maps though
06:11:59 <Nat_aS> there are always as many factories as there are producing industries, and they are always spread around illogicly
06:12:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, the limiter has always been 1/town
06:12:53 <Rhamphoryncus> They may spawn more slowly but in the long term the 1/town is all that matters
06:13:03 <Nat_aS> well that can be flagged off can't it?
06:14:02 <Rhamphoryncus> The 1/town limit? Yes. That's how you get the old joke of 20 water towers in one town ;)
06:14:17 <Rhamphoryncus> There's very little despawning, so the result is broken
06:14:26 <Rhamphoryncus> FIRS lets you turn off spawning altogether though
06:14:38 <Nat_aS> the fix is to turn off spawning and make a nice scenerio
06:14:55 <Rhamphoryncus> You'd need to do prospecting/funding as the game advances though
06:15:17 <Nat_aS> I'm disatisfied with almost all of the randomness in OTTD, we need better algorithms.
06:15:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Are you volunteering? ;)
06:15:44 <Nat_aS> if I was a geinus mathmatician
06:15:57 <Nat_aS> I do however know that I like how sim city 2000 maps look
06:16:31 <Nat_aS> they have the right amount of hills and vallies.
06:16:34 <Rhamphoryncus> We should borrow a cue from minecraft: generate regions, then generate terrain based on the region
06:17:03 <Nat_aS> a map maker that simulates errosion (and rain shadows in tropic maps) would be sweet.
06:17:04 <Rhamphoryncus> No no, we're not that insane
06:17:17 <Nat_aS> rain shadows wouldn't be that hard
06:17:32 <Nat_aS> and there must be simple-ish erosion algorithms.
06:17:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Well okay, that COULD be awesome, but getting all the pieces together would be massive..
06:17:51 <Nat_aS> Alpha centari has both, but then aggain, angled terrain is not a problem in that game
06:18:01 * Rhamphoryncus is also envisioning resource deposits that are variable depending on the map
06:18:17 <Nat_aS> the problem is that in a game like OTTD, you need a map that's mostly flat, but has intresting mountians and hills
06:18:44 <Nat_aS> flat places to build, non flat places to work around, adding challenge and visual interest.
06:19:42 <Nat_aS> an easy map would not be flat, but rather a bunch of mesas, a hard map would not be completly jagged, but have a network of inconveniently shaped vallies.
06:19:45 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, the behaviour of hills should be changed first. Shallower and steeper gradients, some increments, diagonal inclines/bridges/tunnels
06:19:59 <Rhamphoryncus> And signals in tunnels/bridges
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06:20:11 <Nat_aS> well Diagonal inclines/bridges/tunnels sounds like a whole diffrent project
06:20:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Real curves too
06:20:25 <Nat_aS> also, I don't think more than one gradation is a reasonable goal.
06:20:26 <Rhamphoryncus> It is, but it's a requirement for the hells
06:20:36 <Rhamphoryncus> reasonable? It's not that hard
06:20:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Yes, I am insane :P
06:20:49 <Nat_aS> it wouldn't be hard, but it would be diffrent
06:20:53 <Nat_aS> and would spoil the asthetics
06:21:05 <Nat_aS> I don't want to see non 45deg hills,
06:21:26 <Nat_aS> although clifs might be interesting, like in RCT and Locomotion
06:21:48 <Nat_aS> curves would require hundreds of sprites per car though, which would lock pixel artists out of the community
06:22:02 <Rhamphoryncus> spoil? It'd be beautiful
06:22:09 <Nat_aS> and next thing you know we only have ugly pre-rendered sprites
06:22:19 <Nat_aS> have you played simutrans or locomotion?
06:22:35 <Nat_aS> if you think that's beautiful, you need your eyes checked.
06:22:47 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm not sure it'd require that many more sprites. There's already plans to add a few more for eyecandy purposes.
06:23:01 <Nat_aS> it occupies a horrid gap between pixel art and 3dcgi
06:23:09 <Nat_aS> and I have seen those, I don't like that idea either :P
06:23:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Nope. Only simutrans videos I've looked at were towns, not hills
06:23:43 <Nat_aS> anyways, i just think a better terrain maker than teragenisis would be nice.
06:23:56 <Nat_aS> and could be acomplished without changing the engine for the rest of the game
06:25:01 <Rhamphoryncus> You're not opposed to diagonal inclines/brudges/tunnels though?
06:25:30 <Nat_aS> I'd rather see layered networks.
06:25:50 <Nat_aS> not just diagonal bridges, but bridges that can turn corners, and subway tunnels
06:26:07 <Nat_aS> that would involve changing the way simutrans stores memory though,
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06:27:32 <Nat_aS> a good map is one that looks somewhat like a real land formation, perhaps with selectable presets like "Island" or "Lakes", has flat places for building, and hilly places as obstacles/visual intrest.
06:27:54 <Nat_aS> low mean, but high standard deviation is what some document I read about it said or something
06:27:58 <Nat_aS> the math went over my head sadly.
06:28:58 <Nat_aS> there are nice terrain generators that even simulate erosion, and only take a few minutes to complete, but they are complex, and not optomized for the kind of map that is good in TTD.
06:29:28 <Nat_aS> I have tried importing the heightmaps generated, and i just get jaggy hills
06:29:55 <Nat_aS> I can't seem to adjust the resolution.
06:30:00 <Nat_aS> not sure if that's the right word.
06:30:33 <Alberth> run a smoothing algorithm on it?
06:30:52 <Nat_aS> not as much smooting as making it more blocky
06:31:11 <Alberth> how many height levels do these generators assume exist?
06:31:14 <Nat_aS> instead of a curve, I want it to fit into nice even level changes
06:31:26 <Nat_aS> well these generators are built for more complex games than oTTD
06:31:44 <Nat_aS> like I think this is built for game developers making 3d environments
06:32:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Ugh, just watched a locomotion video :P
06:32:20 <Alberth> too fine grained perhaps?
06:33:02 <Nat_aS> it can make ultra realistic heightmaps in a reasonable amount of time (if you have a nice PC) but it's not optomized for OTTD
06:33:02 <Rhamphoryncus> The turns aren't decent but would be acceptable.. but probably too many sprites :/
06:33:21 <planetmaker> maybe it's also an idea to implement a world gen API similar to AIs and game script :-)
06:33:28 <planetmaker> good morning everyone
06:33:39 <Nat_aS> what do you mean planetmaker?
06:33:39 <Rhamphoryncus> The hills.. well, it's really only 1 incline. They just add vertical as another option. Of course that's going to be ugly
06:34:06 <planetmaker> Nat_aS: I mean an interface which allows user-written world gen scripts
06:34:16 <Nat_aS> ahh yes that would be cool
06:34:17 <Alberth> planetmaker: better keep it separate, we already have a good interface, namely a height map
06:34:56 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, separate api. But a height map is not a world gen script as it is pre-defined shapes
06:34:57 <Nat_aS> well a replacement for teragenisis that uses erosion would be cool.
06:35:20 <Nat_aS> also with an option for rainshadows when making tropic maps
06:35:25 <Nat_aS> that should be easy enough to code.
06:35:42 <Nat_aS> just map all the tiles that are downwind of a hill and make them desert.
06:35:51 <Nat_aS> let the player specify how far and which direction.
06:36:30 <Nat_aS> but making realisticly placed deserts by hand is easier for the user than making nice looking maps by hand.
06:36:52 <planetmaker> of course this could co-incide with an extended / new definiton of "scenario" which is more generic and open than the current savegame definition
06:37:04 <planetmaker> especially newgrf semi-independent
06:37:14 <Nat_aS> side question, what does "Variety distribution" in teragenisis even mean
06:37:16 <planetmaker> or it might be separate. :-)
06:37:32 <planetmaker> Nat_aS: something like feature size
06:37:40 <Nat_aS> I don't know what it does, I can't even tell the difference between the settings.
06:37:54 <planetmaker> try the extremes and you'll see
06:38:35 * Rhamphoryncus shudders at the judder between cars as a train moves in a straight line
06:38:46 <Nat_aS> extreme adds tiny lakes
06:38:57 <Nat_aS> in both cases, the landmass itself is ugly
06:39:09 <Nat_aS> why do they always push up against the edge of a map?
06:39:32 <Nat_aS> why can't islands be islands, and continents connect with the edges of the map?
06:39:39 <Nat_aS> square landmasses are ugly
06:41:15 <planetmaker> disable free-form edges
06:41:21 <Nat_aS> yeah, none of the options in teragenisis make the map intresting, they just add meaningless details most of the time
06:42:01 <planetmaker> but landmasses are never square on my maps
06:42:13 <Nat_aS> free form edges does nothing
06:42:41 <Nat_aS> but they often seem to form more or less straight line coastlines against the edges of the map
06:42:58 <Nat_aS> like not straight straight, it has noise to it, and is several squares from the edges
06:43:09 <Nat_aS> but overall it's a line
06:43:31 <Nat_aS> when the non edge facing coastline is more naturally and randomly curved.
06:43:57 <planetmaker> I think you fall for wrong perception there
06:46:44 <Alberth> just pick your favorite programming language, find a .png writer for it, and code a better generator ;)
06:47:48 <Nat_aS> i think i'll sleep now instead
06:48:18 * Rhamphoryncus wonders how hard it'd be to make a new engine from scratch, but with the ability to import the best grf's ;)
06:57:34 <Alberth> the latter is a disadvantage, probably
06:58:39 <Rhamphoryncus> In the long run, definitely
06:59:00 <Rhamphoryncus> But in the short run it'd definitely help steal focus from openttd ;)
07:00:46 <Alberth> but in the short short run, you have extra functionality to implement, which makes doing it harder
07:04:48 <Rhamphoryncus> In the end I'd probably be lazy and just steal FIRS :)
07:07:54 <Alberth> better just fix FIRS bugs and submit patches :)
07:10:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Boo. 101 km/h trains. 64 km/h bridges. That's what I get for not bothering to change the starting date from 1900.
07:12:10 <Zuu> But, things get more interesting when there are bottlenecks :-)
07:13:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Bottleneck nothing. I'm slowly scraping up enough money to buy enough trains for the line
07:13:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Also, there's 3 trains on the bridge already XD
07:14:39 <Zuu> Previously I didn't care that much, but lately I've started to add a strategic bottle neck before the real one to get the queue where I like to have it.
07:15:52 <Zuu> Eg, don't have the queue front in a upslope :-)
07:17:34 <Rhamphoryncus> I've given up on slopes being a fun factor :/
07:17:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Now I just use grossly overpowered trains with 1% slop and 1x cargo weight
07:19:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Throughput is just too chaotic due to the speed up/fullstop behaviour
07:20:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Getting stuck on a hill is perfectly realistic.. and unplayable
07:25:02 <xahodo> I'm a bit puzzled about CallVehicleTicks.
07:25:14 <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: always nice to be able to adjust reality :p
07:25:50 <Rhamphoryncus> xahodo: If you start seeing something about raising Elder Gods it's time to take a break ;)
07:27:35 <xahodo> Well, it does work a bit strange.
07:28:16 <xahodo> First it processes all vehicles loading and unloading at stations. Then it cheerfully continues to process all vehicles.
07:28:21 <Alberth> lots of openttd code is strange :p
07:28:38 <xahodo> Isn't it better to attend all vehicles once in that loop?
07:30:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Have confidence there is a reason, however obscure (and sometimes unnecessary) it may be
07:30:14 <Alberth> did you check in the svn history how this change was introduced?
07:30:29 <andythenorth> despite that the game made a lot of progress in last year....
07:30:47 <xahodo> Perhaps that reveals some interesting information.
07:30:49 <Alberth> usually that gives good clues about the edge case that breaks your idea
07:30:52 <andythenorth> does it have enough active devs right now? Or are new devs emerging?
07:31:07 <Alberth> do we have active devs?
07:31:22 <andythenorth> I see commits in svn :P
07:31:40 <Alberth> around 18:45 I bet :)
07:31:40 <andythenorth> quite a few recently :P
07:32:06 <andythenorth> yes, Web Translator might be most active committer right now :D
07:32:35 <andythenorth> actually, interesting thing is that I don't very often read OpenTTD Development forum
07:33:08 <andythenorth> I can't think of any patches submitted there for a long time that made it to trunk
07:33:11 <andythenorth> probably am wrong :P
07:34:20 <Alberth> you're not wrong, I think, or at least, not by much
07:34:59 * Rhamphoryncus grumbles about his grand plan to extend his station.. that fails to account for exit track alignment
07:35:22 <Alberth> and you cannot live with unaligned tracks?
07:35:40 <Rhamphoryncus> They don't fit within the available turn space
07:35:52 <Rhamphoryncus> a 2.5 tile radius turn would become.. 0.5 :)
07:37:07 <andythenorth> yet there are patches, and there are people also patching not posting in the Dev forum
07:37:25 * andythenorth wonders how to encourage patch authors
07:37:38 * Rhamphoryncus posts to the tracker and/or discusses here
07:38:28 <Alberth> ah, so you're the one that spams our bug tracker with feature requests ! :D
07:39:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Feature requests? Hell no. I offer to rewrite the entire game. I get told off ;)
07:39:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think the general pattern is that people move to the mobile platform
07:40:03 <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: oh, can you bend it to a rct clone? I have just the project for you then :p
07:40:19 <Rhamphoryncus> I've made comments in that direction
07:40:28 <Alberth> it's also about transporting people :)
07:41:04 <Rubidium> the main problem is that the main devs don't seem to have the same amount of time they used to have
07:41:19 <Rubidium> (or they got bored by something)
07:41:56 <Alberth> Or they start writing a RCT clone ( /me points Rhamphoryncus to FreeRCT )
07:42:09 <Alberth> moin Terkhen, Rubidium
07:42:12 <andythenorth> did a lot of people grow up and get jobs?
07:42:16 <planetmaker> or a dune clone ;-)
07:42:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't want RCT persay. I just want some of the power of the engine
07:42:37 <Rhamphoryncus> uh uh, I've done my time of dune modding
07:42:46 * andythenorth blames minecraft
07:43:09 <Alberth> planetmaker: that was a code conversion job, now it's done, and nobody seems to know where to go from there
07:43:12 <Rhamphoryncus> sure, take the easy way out
07:44:44 <planetmaker> what to do about that, though, Rubidium?
07:44:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: people move to mobile platform? You mean hacking iOS / Android? Or you mean they've gone out walking? :P
07:45:19 <Rubidium> planetmaker: no idea
07:45:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: meaning that your game is (more) successful, if you supportt hose two
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07:45:39 <Alberth> andythenorth: much of game / software development is for mobiles currently
07:46:07 <planetmaker> having both, an iOS and android version certainly would come in handy. Especially with the tablet segment
07:46:12 <andythenorth> 'mobile' won't be a thing beyond about 5 years
07:46:38 <planetmaker> tablet is a clear mixture
07:46:51 <Rubidium> iOS requires an OSX dev, so that's not going to happen
07:46:52 <Alberth> tablet will stay I think
07:47:01 <planetmaker> and if you don't bridge the 5 years, you're dead afterwards, too
07:47:08 <andythenorth> it will be reasonably converged
07:47:10 <Rubidium> and tablets require a 'fat finger interface'
07:47:17 <planetmaker> iOS is a slight tangent to OSX, but yes
07:47:33 <Rubidium> which means making all buttons at least twice as big
07:47:55 <Rubidium> or at least configurable to do so
07:48:13 * Rhamphoryncus offers to chainsaw the UI and make it work ;)
07:48:18 <planetmaker> yes. We have the BigGUI sprites. So this time it's not a graphical issue
07:48:18 <Rubidium> though the resolutions on those devices are relatively low
07:48:29 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: please :-)
07:48:31 <andythenorth> [does it matter if there's not much active development?]
07:48:48 <Alberth> probably, but the point is more that desktops are decreasing in importance
07:49:00 <Rubidium> and thus you'd (basically) end up with less space than you'd have on 640x480
07:49:13 <andythenorth> if there's not much active development, there's few people who can review patches, which in turn reduces active development
07:49:19 <planetmaker> Rubidium: on a tablet you have more pixels...
07:49:22 <andythenorth> although maybe it's nearly "done" anyway
07:49:27 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: are you aware that making the UI *good* on touch screens goes way beyond just making it scale better?
07:49:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: the problem is more you need patch authors that can write good patches
07:49:49 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the 'cheap' ones have 800x600 or 1024x768 or something similarly small
07:50:06 <Rubidium> making the buttons twice as high and wide means effectively 400x300 or 512x384
07:50:07 <Rhamphoryncus> So far any offers I've made to redesign things have not gone well
07:50:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: how do you get authors who can write good patches?
07:50:29 <andythenorth> how did LordAro get his readme patch done?
07:50:39 <andythenorth> get marketing :P
07:50:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: luxury! Mine's 320x240
07:50:57 <andythenorth> one of the problems is that OpenTTD doesn't sucj
07:51:23 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: keep up
07:51:26 <andythenorth> it's not pressingly obvious where the gaps are
07:51:34 <Rhamphoryncus> And I believe the game could be playable on such a phone.. or at least the resolution
07:51:47 <andythenorth> mostly "fix OS X bugs" is given as biggest priority to those who want to patch :P
07:51:49 <planetmaker> re-designing things needs persistence. And is not something which is done in "yup, we just do it this way"
07:51:55 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: yeah, I'm pondering a major upgrade. This one was free.
07:52:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: needed changes are often deep
07:52:16 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: buy a table ;)
07:52:52 <Rhamphoryncus> err.. buy a tablet
07:53:15 <Alberth> a table for the tablet comes in handy too :)
07:53:50 <planetmaker> make sure to make a proper port then, Rhamphoryncus with stuff which can be reviewed :-)
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07:55:40 <planetmaker> I think an android version would really be helpful. As would an iOS one
07:55:58 <planetmaker> It would give the game to a new bunch of players. Though iOS... would only work for hacked devices
07:56:14 <planetmaker> frigging AppStore TOS
07:57:40 <Terkhen> yeah, it would be better to aim for an android version
07:58:24 <andythenorth> rewrite it all in node.js :P
07:59:12 * andythenorth has an idea: 'openttd should do less'
07:59:14 <Terkhen> I wonder about performance problems, I don't know how powerful are mobile devices nowadays
07:59:17 <andythenorth> progressively remove stuff
07:59:22 <Rhamphoryncus> You're insane. I respect that. But get the hell away from me ;)
07:59:44 <andythenorth> for starters, I decide that 512x512 is quite big enough for maps
07:59:56 <Terkhen> specially when some things such as YACD already hit a performance wall
08:00:28 <planetmaker> a real client-server architecture. But that'd be a separate game...
08:00:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Terkhen: For such things the solution is usually to make them worse *g*
08:01:24 <Rubidium> yeah, start by removing NewGRF and transfer orders. That'll make lots of things much easier ;)
08:02:17 <planetmaker> indeed it would... OpenTTD light
08:02:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Seriously: perfect solutions may be stupidly expensive (exponential complexity or worse), but dropping it down just to 99% of perfect can push it all the way to linear
08:02:46 <andythenorth> what are the most pain-in-the-arse things atm?
08:03:05 <Terkhen> in my case "I don't have destinations"
08:03:28 <Rubidium> the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over again
08:03:50 <Rubidium> the slowness introduced by NewGRFs
08:04:28 <andythenorth> so profiling showed that simply drawing newgrf is insanely slow? Or did I misunderstand that?
08:04:38 <Rubidium> though I guess a significant part of that is FS#4934
08:04:54 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's resolving which sprite to draw
08:06:27 <Rhamphoryncus> stopped/loading trains can cause endless "show path" redrawing, since a train is constantly trying to find a path (marking it as dirty), then resetting as it gives up (also marking it as dirty).
08:06:29 <andythenorth> so purely the graphics chain?
08:06:39 <andythenorth> not all the associated cbs to dick around with speed, etc
08:07:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth: CBs are (usually) called much less often than the screen update routine
08:07:18 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the graphics are the significant bit for now
08:07:31 <Rubidium> but mostly due to the amount of times they're called
08:07:32 <andythenorth> and they're called for every vehicle, irrespective of whether it's in the viewport?
08:08:47 <andythenorth> and that's for hysterical raisins? Or is it insanely hard to figure out viewport contents?
08:08:47 <Rubidium> mostly because it fetches the size of the sprite so it can update the viewport draw/click hashes
08:09:23 * andythenorth rapidly gets out of depth
08:09:33 <andythenorth> so you need to know how big a sprite is before you know if it's in viewport or not?
08:09:39 <Rubidium> mostly so that smaller sprites have smaller areas that would get redrawn
08:10:07 <Rhamphoryncus> I can think of a couple ways to fix that, but none both simple and completely foolproof
08:10:25 <Rubidium> and without NewGRFs that doesn't really matter as the sprite meta data lookup for size is pretty fast (just foo[spritenr])
08:10:36 <Rubidium> however getting the sprite number with NewGRFs is the expensive part
08:11:36 <andythenorth> silly old newgrfs
08:12:22 <andythenorth> why does TB say "Similar behaviour cannot be detected for ships."
08:12:24 <Rubidium> and because they do all kinds of queries on nearby sprites to return the right sprite, there's lots of calculations just to get the size of the sprite
08:12:57 <Rhamphoryncus> So they're too slow to measure?
08:13:17 <Rhamphoryncus> (other costs dwarf this one)
08:13:20 <Rubidium> andythenorth: mostly because ships have much fewer things to compare and generally less complex schemes
08:13:32 <andythenorth> I wondered if he tested in a game without newgrf :P
08:13:38 <andythenorth> but yes, no consist for ships
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08:13:54 <Rubidium> I'd reckon with the N different loading stages you'd be able to do most you'd want to do for you ship, wouldn't you?
08:14:06 <Rubidium> at least if I look at the log ship
08:14:19 <andythenorth> I also check broken down or not
08:14:31 <Rubidium> but for trains you have wagon overrides and all kinds of other crap
08:14:43 <andythenorth> and these have to change on every tick?
08:15:08 <andythenorth> if we lost vehicle animation
08:15:10 <andythenorth> then they only validly change at stations / depots
08:15:20 <andythenorth> or do I miss some dearly-loved cases?
08:15:21 <Rubidium> and track type changes
08:15:24 <Rubidium> and direction changes
08:15:51 <andythenorth> except for CETS style, direction changes are 'pick one of 8 pre-determined sprites'
08:15:51 <Terkhen> complexity explosion :)
08:15:59 <Rubidium> when actually drawing it's not a big problem, but for just moving around the vehicle you don't really care about the bounding box
08:16:06 <Rhamphoryncus> One of my ideas: cache the largest size seen for that vehicle type, use that to determine if on screen
08:17:08 <Rhamphoryncus> The other was to use double the last seen size, just for that particular vehicle
08:17:08 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: that'd mean that you'd still need to look up the sprite to see whether it might not be bigger
08:17:26 <planetmaker> one could go through sprites on startup
08:17:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: Only when you decide to draw it
08:17:33 <Terkhen> the problem with possible ideas to solve performance problems is that the only way to check their validity is to actually implement and profile them
08:18:00 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yeah, they're known... but please go through all code paths of a vehicle to find all sprites used for that vehicle
08:18:07 * andythenorth wonders how it's ever valid to change appearance based on track type
08:18:10 <Terkhen> and in my experience our "we would like an implementation" request usually go badly
08:18:21 <planetmaker> Rubidium: one could just use the biggest vehicle sprite for that type
08:18:26 <Rubidium> andythenorth: taking the pantograph down?
08:18:26 <planetmaker> i.e. max(FEAT_TRAINS)
08:18:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but that'll be the buy one
08:18:49 <planetmaker> and the newgrf is read upon startup, afaik?
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08:24:52 <andythenorth> for [every vehicle] [every consist length] [every possible combination of all lengths and orders with every vehicle in every other grf]
08:25:28 <andythenorth> then do this for [every date] [every cargo] [every cargo amount] [every track type] [every vehicle age]
08:26:18 * Rhamphoryncus fires up another game to check.. 31 years before I get a better bridge :(
08:26:34 <andythenorth> and [every direction] [every possible combination of angles of neighbouring vehicles] [properties of every other vehicle in every possible consist combination]
08:26:38 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: sounds perfectly cromulent ;)
08:27:20 <andythenorth> and also, you *may not break any newgrf ever ever ever, especially the old unmaintained ones*
08:27:41 <andythenorth> the old unmaintained ones are definitely the most important, because the authors (who are no longer around) might get whiny
08:28:00 <Rhamphoryncus> unmaintained *and* with licenses that prohibit you from fixing them directly
08:28:10 <andythenorth> "wtf, you broke my grf that I wrote 7 years and clearly don't give a crap about"
08:28:51 <andythenorth> also we need to factor in size of 32bpp sprites?
08:30:01 * Rhamphoryncus wishes stations had a different animation for "cargo being loaded onto a waiting vehicle", rather than flashing the "cargo waiting"
08:30:13 <andythenorth> what do we gain if we ditch newgrf?
08:30:36 <Rhamphoryncus> self-respect? *ducks*
08:32:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Seriously though, I'd love to see a move to something like squirrels and a free software license requirement to add new stuff to bananas. That'd let anybody fix a grf
08:32:47 <andythenorth> what do we gain if we ditch *vehicle* newgrfs
08:33:18 <Rhamphoryncus> You means NARS/UKRS/Dutch/FISH/Aviator?
08:34:01 <Rhamphoryncus> They're the most important newgrfs..
08:35:44 <Rhamphoryncus> So unless you're talking about merging their functionality into core, perhaps replacing them with simplified forms that specify little more than sprites and the stats..
08:37:34 * andythenorth is wondering why TB showed aircraft having so many instruction calls
08:37:39 <andythenorth> shadows and rotors?
08:37:52 <andythenorth> aircraft don't do much, no consists, no load states
08:41:14 <V453000> not sure if she knows how important it is to have newgrfs on bananas for multiplayer
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08:42:24 <planetmaker> she knows not even how the ingame interface to download newgrfs looks like
08:43:58 <planetmaker> and assumes bananas = website for download
08:43:59 <Rubidium> pff, who cares? Her work isn't going to be compatible with OpenTTD anyway
08:44:22 <V453000> I dont quite care already just because she basically refuses to reasonably share it Rubi :)
08:44:41 <V453000> I play only online anyway, so bananas is a must
08:46:26 <Rubidium> point is that SAC claims that the new NewGRFs are "coded to restrict access for OTTD-users", i.e. they won't load in OpenTTD anyway
08:46:42 <Rubidium> mostly because OpenTTD isn't a superset of TTDPatch features yet
08:47:11 <V453000> how friendly of TTDPatch authors
08:47:15 <Ammler> omg, Hironimus is giving him permisssion to host it that way
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08:47:55 <Ammler> should we introduce requireing registering for devzone too?
08:48:49 <V453000> you cant write a ticket without that anyway, can you?
08:49:03 <planetmaker> registration only granted after successfully filling in a questionaire on how newgrfs and savegames and bananas work and interact with eachother
08:49:15 <planetmaker> V453000: but you can read everything
08:52:14 <Ammler> It is so annoying how Hyronymus and orudge react to SAC behavior just because she is a girl
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08:55:05 <V453000> well, why bother in the end Ammler ;)
08:55:29 <Rhamphoryncus> wait, if I pretended to have breasts I'd have free run of the place? :D
08:56:17 <FLHerne> So she uses a re-distributable license, then imposes additional restrictions thus invalidating it making it technically illegal for anyone to download the content?
08:56:37 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: you might want to point that out to her
08:56:48 <FLHerne> Is there any reason why 'use a different license' doesn't work?
08:56:56 <Ammler> V453000: it would all be no issue, if the thread would not exist in the release forum
08:57:05 <Ammler> (like Pikka mentioned)
08:57:34 <Ammler> locking isn't optimal but a start ;-)
08:58:22 <FLHerne> If she doesn't want her very shiny pictures redistributed, why use a licence which permits it? It just seems rather pointless
08:59:14 <Ammler> and if you don't want the public to dwonload it, why announce it?
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08:59:31 <orudge> [09:52:13] <Ammler> It is so annoying how Hyronymus and orudge react to SAC behavior just because she is a girl <-- I certainly don't, thank you very much
08:59:41 <orudge> I just would prefer we didn't drive any artist away, really
08:59:48 <orudge> however, if they're going to be stubborn, then it's their loss
09:00:11 <Ammler> orudge: linking to a cloased 3rd party homepage is for sure spam (or like)
09:00:11 <orudge> I would say the same to MB, or to anybody else, whether they have a willy or a vagina :P
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09:00:33 <orudge> Ammler: well, I did note to SAC that I would prefer it be opened if I she was to link from it here
09:00:36 <orudge> so hopefully she'll at least do that
09:00:41 <Ammler> with you support that behavior, thank you :-P
09:00:59 * Rhamphoryncus decides to try the both option
09:01:32 <orudge> we'll just see what happens I suppose
09:01:47 <planetmaker> you saw the last e-mail, orudge?
09:01:48 <orudge> I was rather irritated when she went and deleted *all* of her attachments from TT-Forums, that bugged me
09:01:59 <orudge> I could technically go back into an old backup and restore them all, but that involves a lot of effort :p
09:02:03 <orudge> planetmaker: yes, indeed
09:02:35 <orudge> planetmaker: I'm not entirely sure what she's trying to say, that OpenTTD needs to implement custombridgeheads before she'll release her GRF with OpenTTD support enabled?
09:02:36 <Ammler> orudge: can't you enable a delete block for older files?
09:02:52 <orudge> Ammler: not without some hacking of phpBB. I'd kind of like to block editing posts older than a few days, really.
09:02:58 <orudge> although there are certain places where that would be annoying
09:03:00 <Ammler> deleting attachments is general issue
09:03:02 <orudge> e.g., first posts of topics
09:03:08 <orudge> (graphics release topics, etc)
09:03:12 <planetmaker> orudge: I didn't quite get that either. It has no reference context for me
09:03:25 <planetmaker> and doesn't fit the previous exchange at all
09:03:32 <orudge> planetmaker: quite, I don't know either
09:09:30 <frosch123> i really can't understand why to continue to try to please sac
09:09:58 <frosch123> i would just ban her from tt-forums including disallowing any content from her
09:10:11 <frosch123> but well, i am not in charge :)
09:11:14 <frosch123> i just rate her as the biggest troublemaker on the froums
09:17:25 <oskari89> Well, i see that SAC's behaviour as MB's...
09:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, the general problem is "but her graphics are soooo cute!"
09:18:16 <Rubidium> SAC and OzTrans. Those are much more alike
09:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> (i haven't actually seen the current discussion, though)
09:18:59 <oskari89> Ladies and gentleman, let's not be stupid. Just throwing mud doesn't help you getting any new graphics.
09:19:39 <oskari89> SAC does it her's own way :P
09:20:10 <Rubidium> oskari89: lies... OzTrans was before with disabling the NewGRF when loaded in OpenTTD, now SAC's doing the same
09:20:44 <frosch123> yeah, and when oztrans also disabled them for ttdp as well, he left shortly after or so :p
09:21:24 <Rubidium> and both claim they needed to do so because OpenTTD didn't implement a particular feature quick enough
09:21:28 <Alberth> not much point in sticking around if nobody can use your published files :)
09:22:19 <FLHerne> No-one complains when people drop TTDP support to use features in OTTD, so why is the other way round such a problem :P
09:23:13 <Rubidium> FLHerne: it'd be like dropping TTDPatch support because TTDPatch doesn't have an auto downloader for when the base graphics are missing
09:24:29 <FLHerne> So for a nonsensical reason?
09:24:40 <Rubidium> in SAC's case it's the lack of custombridgeheads that's the trigger which has absolutely nothing to do with NewGRFs
09:24:56 <Alberth> FLHerne: depends on the person
09:25:47 <Rubidium> for most NewGRFs that don't work on TTDPatch it's due to TTDPatch not implementing a particular NewGRF feature that the NewGRF uses
09:26:16 <FLHerne> What actually is a custom bridgehead? They seem very popular with some people, but I don't know what they do...
09:26:47 <Rubidium> basically that you can build junctions/signals on flat bridge heads
09:27:23 <frosch123> ^^ funny that the first hit on google links to _ottd_ wiki
09:27:37 <frosch123> but might me that goolge knows me to well
09:28:22 <planetmaker> for me it's the same order. openttd wiki and tt-forums openttd dev section
09:28:56 <frosch123> then you do not have the same order as me
09:29:01 <FLHerne> Doesn't really seem critical enough for the TTDP people to be so concerned by its absence...
09:29:15 <frosch123> 1. ottd wiki, 2. ottd wiki talk, 3. ttdp problems section
09:29:56 <frosch123> FLHerne: it only depends on what you are used too
09:30:19 <Rubidium> FLHerne: of the two people I know still clinging to TTDPatch and rejecting to play OpenTTD, two say it is because of custombridgeheads
09:30:20 <frosch123> if you are not used to be able to build on steep slopes, you will not notice when playing ttdp
09:30:33 <frosch123> however if you are used to do so, you will ragequit ttdp after five minutes
09:30:33 <FLHerne> Surely those train-filtering track sections are more important though?
09:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: it's one of those features that you never miss, until you know of its existance
09:31:06 <Alberth> FLHerne: SAC is not a big train builder, she is more into realistic scenery
09:31:41 <FLHerne> And junctions right on the edge of bridges are common enough for that to be a problem?
09:32:09 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: just like it took a while before I discovered auto-slopes in ottd :)
09:32:10 <frosch123> just as common as building track on steep slopes
09:33:51 <__ln__> "SAC" must be a ship or something as everyone is using "she" or "her".
09:33:51 <planetmaker> frosch, I searched for "custom bridgehead". Later entries are then unrelated to OTTDP
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09:35:18 <frosch123> ok, i searched for "custom bridge heads"
09:35:53 <frosch123> searching for your term gives the same result as you said
09:44:52 <planetmaker> bye and happy Easter everyone
09:50:45 * SpComb votes for custom bridges
09:51:28 <SpComb> does openttd still only store bridge heads in the map array?
09:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is not the problem
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10:06:08 <andythenorth> <frosch123> i just rate her as the biggest troublemaker on the froums <- despite all arguments I get into, SAC is the only person who has caused me to consider quitting forums + OTTD community
10:06:22 <andythenorth> or rather, getting piled onto and attacked by SAC's legion of followers
10:07:40 <andythenorth> along the lines of 'omg andythenorth, despite that SAC has stolen people's work, why can't you just overlook it, she's far too important to be held to same rules as anyone else'
10:09:35 <Rhamphoryncus> actually stolen artwork?
10:12:24 <andythenorth> imprecisely attributed
10:12:33 <andythenorth> 'stolen' would be slanderous
10:13:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Still bad, but of a different magnitude
10:14:02 <andythenorth> I know lots several of her screenshots contain sprites from me and others that are GPL
10:14:14 <andythenorth> I have no idea if they'll be included in released grfs
10:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> imprecisely attributed <-- is that one of those "understatements" you british people do? :p
10:14:38 <andythenorth> and without registering on her private [warez?] distribution site, I'd have no way to check
10:15:16 <andythenorth> but as she is releasing invalidly licensed things, anyway, I wonder if GPL violation concerns her anyway
10:15:28 <andythenorth> yet still she gets to drama all over the forums, with legions of fans
10:16:08 <andythenorth> what if we canned vehicle newgrf and invented a new format?
10:17:03 <andythenorth> I don't mean the encoding format :P
10:17:07 <andythenorth> I don't care about that
10:17:10 <andythenorth> I mean the spec :P
10:17:25 <andythenorth> encoding / authoring /s
10:18:44 <andythenorth> a vehicle would only get to check storage local to the vehicle when resolving the graphics chain
10:19:01 <andythenorth> and that storage would only be updated on certain intervals / callbacks, not every tick or so
10:19:31 <Rhamphoryncus> Just as a solution to the current problem? I don't think it's necessary
10:19:42 <andythenorth> you prefer optimisation?
10:20:34 <Rhamphoryncus> But here's another related thought: UI newgrfs. Can change the appearance of things, or even menus, but not affect game state. Data is local to each client.
10:21:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Use case: NARS defaulting to mph in texts, even though my settings specify km/h
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10:23:16 <andythenorth> I suggest the local storage because it would be desirable anyway
10:23:38 <andythenorth> why constantly check position in consist and type of lead vehicle?
10:23:50 <andythenorth> why not just store that :P
10:24:13 <Rhamphoryncus> You'd need that to be per-client
10:24:22 <Rhamphoryncus> As the callback has to be triggered from being drawn
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10:34:48 <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: newgrfs can use the right units as set in your local settings
10:35:24 <Rhamphoryncus> really? So it's just the newgrf predating that feature or being unaware of it?
10:35:33 <frosch123> nars probably did not bother about using the right units, since it is a bit harder than just plain text
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10:36:05 <frosch123> i assume you mean the extra text in the purchase list?
10:36:30 <frosch123> then it's only possible since ottd 1.2
10:37:35 <drac_boy> I assume this isn't about the 'Note:' field or is it?
10:37:48 <Pikka> actually, he meant the cargo subtypes, frosch123
10:40:04 <frosch123> hmm, ok, then it's not possible
10:52:14 <drac_boy> do any of you think that 40km/h probably is a relastic minimum for locomotive top speed in the game? its not a little 600hp shunter naturally
10:54:47 <drac_boy> well I mean its going to be a train that'll take 100 tonnes over 50 tiles?
10:55:08 <drac_boy> hmm maybe that wasn't a good question wording :-s
10:55:27 <frosch123> i don't think cargo trains are meant to move fast
10:55:34 <frosch123> they are meant to move heavy stuff
10:55:46 <k-man> how do i convince a town to let me build more stations around it?
10:56:00 <frosch123> k-man: plant a lot of trees
10:56:25 <drac_boy> thats true frosch123 but I doubt anyone would want to watch a train move only three pixels per second or..well you know?
10:56:49 <frosch123> ask those who start in 1800 with horses :p
10:57:00 <drac_boy> frosch123 heh heh I was thinking of 1920+ but point taken :P
10:57:47 <frosch123> i am fine with a vehicle going 40km/h on a very steep hill
10:57:56 <frosch123> then i can load on a fast train in the valley
10:58:13 <frosch123> currently i use heqs in such cases
10:58:24 <frosch123> but if there is a train which can do it, i could also use that
10:58:52 <frosch123> though no train which uses friction only should be able to do like heqs vehicles :)
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10:59:17 <drac_boy> well atm I was thinking of 40-70km/h for the initial locomotives then the speed choices slowly increasing over time
10:59:29 <drac_boy> guess I'll see what happens with the test grf then
11:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you have wagon speed limits that low, such an engine may make sense
11:00:31 <drac_boy> yeah I'll have to look into the wagon, I do know that I probably could add some 2-axle variety, that would be slower for sure
11:03:33 <drac_boy> at least the other things were easier to figure out although I know I'm going to have to play with the kN numbers after the first grf is made
11:06:25 <drac_boy> frosch123 do you ever use the heqs trams?
11:07:25 <frosch123> on short distances when raw industries are very close, but i cannot get them into the catchment of a single station
11:07:35 <frosch123> (i do not use silly 64x64 stations)
11:08:02 <Ammler> now april 1 is gone, shouldn't you resolve the fool now (why no stable release)?
11:08:10 <drac_boy> heh I kind of loved heqs only simply because of trams
11:08:48 <Pikka> there was no stable release because the release was not stable, Ammler. what more needs explaining?
11:08:59 <drac_boy> and frosch123 I agree, I may have station spread set to 20 in my games usually but I only use that for towns or tricky mountainside faces where it would be much less problem to locate the actual rails a bit further away
11:09:15 <drac_boy> otherwise where the stations goes is where they actually serve their task
11:09:16 <Ammler> Pikka: I would wonder why...
11:09:38 <Pikka> because sufficent bugs were found after the release of RC3
11:09:50 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC4
11:09:50 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC4 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
11:09:50 <Ammler> which were not able to fix?
11:10:15 <Pikka> but the fact that bugs were being fixed means that the release was not stable
11:10:17 <frosch123> drac_boy: on those mountain sides i use the heqs rv
11:10:27 <Pikka> an RC will become a stable when there are no significant bugs found.
11:10:41 <Pikka> or at least no significant bugs anyone can be bothered fixing :)
11:11:03 <drac_boy> frosch123 well I'm thinking more like where eg the rail station is on a wide cliff or on the flatland bottom .. and the industry in question is stubbornly around the peak ... I'll prefer to not blow up the face of the mountain ;)
11:11:15 <andythenorth> you need conveyor belts
11:11:20 <andythenorth> which are equivalent to pipelines
11:11:31 <Ammler> well, the bug must have been very serious to break the tradition :-)
11:11:46 <frosch123> drac_boy: i am only talking about a distance of 10 tiles here
11:12:00 <Ammler> the changelog does not list any such bug
11:12:17 <drac_boy> frosch123 well sometimes it can be as little as a catchment tile placed 3 tiles far from the station. point taken tho
11:12:27 <Pikka> the seriousness of the bug fixed is not the issue
11:12:38 <andythenorth> bug is a bug no?
11:12:41 <Pikka> the issue is whether the fix produces unforeseen problems
11:13:00 <andythenorth> bug fix = variation; variation needs testin
11:13:02 <Pikka> which can only be discovered by a further test release
11:13:04 <drac_boy> andythenorth funny that you would mention pipelines, I had been playing with some rough sprites for Object pipeline coming from a small oil derrick to the storage tank
11:13:17 <andythenorth> DWE tile already have one I think ;)
11:13:32 * andythenorth is bad at words today
11:13:44 <Ammler> well, wouldn't be the first time there is a bugfix release shortly after the release :-)
11:14:00 <drac_boy> yeah I was just playing around since I wanted to find reasons to try draw cylinders at a diagonal angle which is not so easy early on around
11:17:44 <drac_boy> at least theres always the forum in case I really run into problem trying to draw a particular sprite right in diagonal view :)
11:19:27 <drac_boy> andythenorth if you don't mind me asking, would you had complained about being only able to load logs onto dedicated log wagons rather than the refittable flatcar?
11:19:36 * drac_boy wanted to see what others would had said
11:20:00 <andythenorth> as long as there's something to transport them
11:20:11 <andythenorth> the rest of it is a matter of taste
11:20:18 <drac_boy> heh allright, thanks
11:21:28 <drac_boy> and yeah theres a few wagons for everything, just a few of these are specific such as log wagon or passenger coach
11:22:03 <drac_boy> still not sure if should let milk into tankers or save it only for the refridgerate car
11:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you transport the milk from the cows to the bottling plant, not from the bottling plant to the cities. so tanker is slightly more logical than refrigerated
11:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> alcohol/beer is a different matter
11:25:17 <drac_boy> now that does make sense, thanks
11:26:26 <drac_boy> I was thinking about farm-brewery-(food) chain but thats probably for someone else to deal with perhaps
11:27:47 *** Pikka_ is now known as Pikka
11:45:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: FIRS technically could be
11:45:31 <Alberth> drac_boy: I don't know, but everybody makes beer
11:45:47 <andythenorth> BEER is the label
11:45:51 <andythenorth> but the FIRS cargo is Alcohol
11:46:40 <drac_boy> andythenorth I hope you did not shorten that to ALCO for label .. confusing ;)
11:46:52 <Alberth> but you don't need wheat for wine :p
11:46:56 <andythenorth> you can deliver fruit :P
11:47:07 <andythenorth> apparently I named it Brewery
11:47:14 <andythenorth> it was Brewery / Distillery for a while
11:47:23 <andythenorth> but all those 'foo / bar' industry names were stupid
11:47:25 <drac_boy> I think just Brewery alone makes more sense
11:47:27 <Alberth> don't know how a wine factory is called
11:50:57 <frosch123> hmm, would TEA_ be transported in tankers? :p
11:52:07 <Alberth> no, tea leaves are transported dry
11:52:46 <Alberth> until milli seconds before you put them in the water :)
11:57:17 <frosch123> ah, so they need moisture protection in silo wagons
12:00:28 * andythenorth thinks a mediterranean industry chain would be nice
12:00:56 <andythenorth> italian sports cars
12:01:08 <drac_boy> you're overthinking :P
12:04:06 <oskari89> Is trash included in FIRS?
12:04:13 <oskari89> Or scrap metal, currently?
12:04:39 <drac_boy> why no trash andythenorth? they had a lot of trash trains around the world :p
12:04:46 <andythenorth> it's not interesting
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12:11:08 <drac_boy> you ever thought about sending scraps back to the steel mill? probably have a low output ratio but still
12:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what it currently does
12:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but the output of the scrapyard was too high, the last time i tested firs
12:12:17 <andythenorth> I think there's a ticket to link it to population
12:12:26 <andythenorth> currently it's like an extractive industry
12:12:36 <andythenorth> delivering supplies boosts its output :P
12:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but the initial output should be more in the order of magnitude of a farm, not of a mine...
12:14:08 <andythenorth> it's about 54t by default
12:14:21 <andythenorth> I think older FIRS had [slightly] more
12:14:28 <andythenorth> but older FIRS sucked even more than current FIRS
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12:36:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Scrapyards should have an output limit based on population, then supplies increase output up to that limit?
12:36:41 <andythenorth> or they don't get supplies at all
12:36:49 <andythenorth> they're not really extractive
12:36:56 <FLHerne> Yeah...but supplies :P
12:37:25 <andythenorth> anyway, FIRS is dead-ish :P
12:37:49 <FLHerne> Those big ripping-stuff-to-shreds machines count as engineering supplies, surely?
12:38:07 <andythenorth> yeah, that was the original case for them
12:38:15 <andythenorth> mixing population and supplies is...complicated
12:38:17 <andythenorth> simple is better
12:38:45 <FLHerne> No, complicated is better. You should add at least 2 more types of supplies :P
12:39:14 <FLHerne> Does FIRS 0.7 fix the windmill jumping up and down, btw?
12:39:31 <andythenorth> I didn't know it did that :P
12:39:41 <andythenorth> why don't you test and let me know ;)
12:40:05 <FLHerne> Chill's PP - 0.7 doesn't work
12:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> it's about 54t by default <-- i think that should be _much_ less
12:40:26 <FLHerne> I'm tying to make an updated PP, but the patches keep breaking :-(
12:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: given the huge effect it has
12:40:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: submit a patch :P
12:41:13 <FLHerne> Actually, I have a recent CargoDist build, I'll check that
12:41:14 <andythenorth> I'll give you commit rights, you can release it :P
12:41:28 <Alberth> FLHerne: that's what ChilCore also found out
12:41:30 <drac_boy> flherne heh well if you ever get a stable one feel free to tell me so I could see about replacing the current folder I have ok? :p
12:41:38 <Pikka> FLHerne: I'm going to incorporate supplies for primary industries into TaI, they'll be very complicated
12:42:03 <Pikka> farms and forests take fertilizer, which is made out of thin air
12:42:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: see #3800 linked above for what I think Junk Yards should do
12:42:27 <andythenorth> Pikka: when are you going to release this fabled TaI?
12:42:30 <Alberth> Pikka: they should take CO2 :)
12:42:35 <andythenorth> honestly, you're no better than SAC :P
12:42:47 <Pikka> andythenorth: I've released 3 grfs in the last week
12:42:50 <andythenorth> talk talk talk, screenshots, no releases :P
12:43:01 * andythenorth expects at least one grf per day
12:43:10 <drac_boy> you're a weird one then andythenorth :-P
12:43:24 * Alberth missed a few FIRS releases apparently
12:43:29 <andythenorth> should I recode FIRS in python?
12:43:29 <Pikka> I could probably knock out a grf like that one all the angst was over in about 5 minutes
12:44:39 <andythenorth> if I recode it, I might annoy pm to the point where he stops helping me :(
12:44:50 <andythenorth> and he is the only other active committer
12:45:04 <andythenorth> I've annoyed him enough times already
12:45:22 <andythenorth> otoh, recoding it might be interesting
12:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because the last recoding was such a success? :p
12:45:46 <andythenorth> it already is nml :)
12:46:08 <andythenorth> and every time I ask questions, I just get beaten down with "why are you using such inappropriate tools"
12:46:10 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: because Python coding is fun :p
12:46:55 <andythenorth> the last recoding was successful: it increased the number of loc
12:47:02 <Alberth> yeah sorry, we should harrass pm with such questions
12:47:09 <andythenorth> it introduced new bugs and lost previously working features
12:47:18 <andythenorth> and it baffles me when I look at it
12:47:25 <andythenorth> where's the problem? :D
12:47:31 <drac_boy> problem: you doing too much
12:47:32 <andythenorth> also it forced me to learn nml, which is good
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12:48:02 <Alberth> drac_boy: that's normal; so many problems, so little time
12:48:12 <drac_boy> alberth well...stop creating new ones then, thats all I can say :p
12:48:27 <drac_boy> I only have a few minor problems one week later ;)
12:48:53 <Alberth> I am still in the same situation 6 months later :p
12:49:18 <Alberth> so stopping creating new projects is clearly not working :p
12:49:49 <andythenorth> code I wrote in 2007 is interesting
12:49:59 <andythenorth> the code is ok, the structure is bonkers
12:50:07 <andythenorth> over-abstraction, under-abstraction
12:50:37 <andythenorth> one thing I've learnt over the years: generally 'flat' is slightly better when it comes to organising stuff
12:50:44 <andythenorth> as long as you have a decent search
12:56:57 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It appears FIRS 0.7.1 still has the jumping windmills :P
12:57:04 <andythenorth> file a bug report
12:57:08 <andythenorth> then it can be ignored :P
12:57:11 <FLHerne> Just tested with 1.2.0-RC4
12:57:12 <andythenorth> the blades jump?
12:57:20 <andythenorth> or the building?
12:58:09 <FLHerne> On every zoomed-out view (but not furthest normal zoom or EZ levels) the entire building bounces up and down :P
12:58:54 <FLHerne> Looks rather silly, I didn't report it for 0.6.4 because I assumed you'd probably fixed it already...
12:58:56 <drac_boy> going for a while now, be back later I guess :)
12:59:16 <Pikka> my power stations do that too :) maybe I will fix it one day
12:59:27 <andythenorth> is it not standard zoom jitter?
12:59:35 <Pikka> it happens with animated things
12:59:55 <FLHerne> I don't think so, it moves by quite a lot...
13:00:00 <Pikka> if the sprites are different sizes, the pixel-chopping algorithm when you zoom out chops different pixels
13:00:08 <Pikka> from the different frames
13:00:22 <FLHerne> Oh, I see why that would happen now
13:00:31 <andythenorth> oil wells do it too
13:00:55 <Pikka> I think of it as a charming quirk, not a bug ;)
13:01:46 <FLHerne> Also, the background savegame for 1.2.0 makes my computer lag badly
13:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, you can put in special zoom sprites now :)
13:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but i only ever zoom out while paused
13:13:34 <andythenorth> let's file FIRS zoom under 'things andythenorth will never do'
13:13:52 <andythenorth> if I had that much time, I would sooner spend it improving OpenGFX :P
13:14:02 <andythenorth> but moot point either way
13:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> whoever put easter in april was a fool. obviously
13:21:55 <__ln__> whoever made easter a moving target was a fool
13:23:28 * andythenorth post-lunch slump
13:23:34 <andythenorth> not so much work getting done
13:23:56 <andythenorth> maybe I can play the game for a bit?
13:28:45 <Pikka> graphics program crashed and ate a building
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13:45:51 <andythenorth> if I recode FIRS in python, I'll actually have to use proper Class inheritance and crap
13:46:44 <Pikka> this is why we code in nfo in a text editor :D
13:48:01 <ccfreak2k> He just wants to be a kid a little longer.
13:48:12 <ccfreak2k> Putting everything into globals and such.
13:48:35 <andythenorth> if (more stuff):
13:48:57 <andythenorth> rather than inheriting from a base class
13:50:38 <andythenorth> e.g. rather than
13:51:08 <andythenorth> class Industry: if type=='extractive': blah; if type=='secondary': foo
13:51:26 <andythenorth> class ExtractiveIndustry(Industry):
13:51:36 <andythenorth> like a proper grown up
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14:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> use the factory pattern for industries :p
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14:31:12 * FLHerne wants to look at that ingame :P
14:32:41 <FLHerne> Now code it for OTTD :P You've got an 8F in UKRS2 already...
14:33:06 <Pikka> and it's fine just the way it is ;)
14:33:41 <FLHerne> Looks a bit pixelated sometimes though
14:38:40 <FLHerne> Sometimes I hate the devs for putting in EZ...before I was quite happy with the graphics, now everything looks too undetailed :-(
14:39:20 <oskari89> Generally, i would like that someone took and did something like universal 3D-model format, which could be imported automatically to OpenTTD graphics and Trainz and RW..
14:40:06 <oskari89> FLHerne: You can restrict your zooming from the settings ;)
14:40:35 <Pikka> for a given value of "automatic", you can do that :)
14:40:37 <__ln__> oskari89: i don't think that would work for such small graphics as OpenTTD's.
14:41:52 <FLHerne> Pikka: I know I can, but then I still know that there's an option...
14:44:14 <oskari89> Ah, of course, 32 px length limit..
14:44:45 <oskari89> But i recall that CSDSet had 40 px length something stuff?
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15:13:42 <Pikka> stop it, you'll go blind
15:13:57 * andythenorth loses sight of what he was pondering
15:15:02 <andythenorth> how would I insert a python step after CPP has done its work, but before nmlc is called :O
15:16:19 <andythenorth> maybe I just branch FIRS and convert the branch to python
15:17:28 <supermop> had to switch my bike to the next size up
15:21:23 * drac_boy pokes Snail_ to hurry up already
15:24:23 <Alberth> andythenorth: invent a post-cpp-pre-nml language, and use ply to parse it, and python to generate nml :p
15:25:26 <andythenorth> can't decide whether to do iddy-biddy steps for a conversion, or just poke at a branch until it's done
15:25:27 <Alberth> I already have software called that
15:25:35 <andythenorth> it's not like anything changes in FIRS trunk :P
15:26:41 <Alberth> if you know where to go and how to do it, small steps are better in reaching the goal
15:27:09 <Alberth> if you don't know, first play with the problem, and poking can be a good strategy :)
15:27:44 <andythenorth> I think interleaving CPP and Python templates just gives me a new class of bugs to hunt :P
15:34:32 <Alberth> yeah, using cpp first is less useful than you may think :p
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16:07:12 <drac_boy> hmm what year to do hovercrafts
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16:15:42 <drac_boy> alberth can I call nil? :)
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16:25:31 <drac_boy> going to have lunch now, bye
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16:49:51 * andythenorth has done enough actual work
16:49:54 <andythenorth> time for some pixels
16:57:35 <andythenorth> [children stop pixels]
16:59:09 <Pikka> I seem to be working at the wrong end of TaI houses
16:59:33 <Pikka> I meant to work on 19th century stuff, but I'm rejigging all the houses around the turn of the 21st century
17:00:08 <Pikka> I've moved the "suburban house" into the cottage slot, and am going to draw something new to replace the urban houses
17:00:39 <Pikka> I also earlier limited the urban houses to zones > 0, so that's made a difference.
17:02:03 <V453000> andythenorth: I think I swallowed a pixel or few. What now?
17:02:17 <andythenorth> watch for them in your poo of course
17:02:22 <Pikka> wait and see what comes out the other end, V453000
17:03:24 * andythenorth doesn't understand station coding
17:03:59 <V453000> I keep myself far away from that :)
17:04:25 <V453000> today I coded some train capacity and one value was expected to override the former one ... they combined
17:04:34 <V453000> took me a while to figure out
17:05:11 <Pikka> sounds improbable, V453000 :)
17:06:01 <andythenorth> stations appear to require GRM or such
17:06:01 <V453000> luckily it is just for purchase menu so I made the 2 values combine into the value I wanted and didnt bother further
17:06:24 <andythenorth> but no idea how :P
17:07:14 <andythenorth> reading the spec might be a starting point
17:07:20 * andythenorth has not coded stations before
17:10:46 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 0 hours, 36 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
17:20:26 <andythenorth> it's always better to *not* read the spec, and just try hacking stuff
17:21:26 <Pikka> we really need those macadam and cobble roads and gaslights :D
17:21:41 <Pikka> perhaps after TaI I will see about roadtypes
17:21:51 <andythenorth> perhaps I could help
17:22:05 <andythenorth> perhaps we need a leader!
17:22:25 <andythenorth> he will just point at us, and laugh
17:23:06 <andythenorth> the ground goes transparent :O
17:24:20 <andythenorth> have to read the spec :P
17:24:42 <andythenorth> kind of cheating
17:31:14 <andythenorth> where does bit 30 hide?
17:33:15 <andythenorth> that's what I thought
17:33:25 <andythenorth> that just gets me garbled graphics (wrong sprites)
17:34:16 <andythenorth> \dx000003F4 is my sprite
17:34:30 <andythenorth> I thought would give me transparent
17:34:34 <Mazur> Would 30 not be 0x2000 / 0x20000000 ?
17:35:05 <andythenorth> (not transparent I mean - brain ache)
17:36:06 <Mazur> I just forgot to start from 0.
17:36:13 <andythenorth> the spec is frankly batshit crazy
17:36:29 <Pikka> stations are very silly
17:37:12 * Mazur is a fullty paid up member of hte Society for putting things on top of other things.
17:40:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: i wanted to rewrite that part, but i did not know how :p
17:40:26 <andythenorth> the problem is something to do with how ground sprites work
17:40:36 <andythenorth> I have to use GRM to do it
17:40:39 <frosch123> the same as for industries, just bit 31 inverted
17:41:34 <andythenorth> or alternatively, the spec is broken, which can't be the case
17:41:49 <andythenorth> certainly adding \dx8 or \dx4 doesn't work
17:41:50 <frosch123> who wrote that non-sense?
17:42:19 <andythenorth> if anyone would like to play, a CHIPS checkout is easy :P
17:43:06 <frosch123> for station tiles with track you always have to use the default ground tile anyway
17:43:14 <frosch123> as only that one will draw the proper new railtypes
17:43:27 <andythenorth> that might be the issue then
17:43:42 <andythenorth> maybe I need to draw ground sprite, then overlays
17:44:08 <andythenorth> I have to bath the baby, but will gladly test patches :P
17:45:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24098 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt:
17:45:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by OliTTD
18:02:36 <andythenorth> so it helps to set bits on the write sprite :P
18:02:51 <andythenorth> and it is 40000000h
18:03:36 <andythenorth> setting 80000000 gets you a sprite from the baseset at some offset
18:03:38 <andythenorth> and is all wrong :)
18:07:14 <andythenorth> the rear part of the structure flickers when a train goes by
18:09:22 <andythenorth> ctrl-b tells me nothing useful
18:09:26 <andythenorth> just one big bounding box
18:10:14 <frosch123> that's what is wrong :p
18:10:28 <frosch123> you should have one bounding box behind the train, and one in front of it
18:11:26 <andythenorth> "copy-paste-hack" may not be the best way to learn this
18:11:38 <andythenorth> bounding boxes are declared
18:12:51 <andythenorth> I suspect line 15 is the one I need to change
18:13:50 <frosch123> only make them 10x5
18:14:11 <andythenorth> 10 04 \b36 seems to work
18:15:46 <andythenorth> is it bad that guessing is more effective than understanding the spec?
18:17:21 <frosch123> just take a look at other stations
18:18:14 <andythenorth> now I just need some tiles for sheep, pigs, cows, then 0.7.0 is ready
18:18:17 <andythenorth> I have the graphics
18:18:24 <andythenorth> just need code :P
18:33:24 <FLHerne> OpenGFX support would be nice...
19:00:41 <xiong> So, I've confirmed it. In the Scenario Editor, I have my chosen Advanced Settings, including Autorenew and Maintenance. I close the editor and play the scenario I've created; it opens with all Autonenew and Maintenance settings reset to default.
19:00:53 <xiong> Is this a bug or an obscure feature?
19:02:03 <Pikka> those settings sound like ones where player preference should take precedence
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19:07:14 <frosch123> xiong: those are settings per company
19:07:27 <frosch123> they are set to the local defaults when a company is started
19:08:34 <xiong> Um, okay frosch123. But when I start a New Game, I retain those settings. I can sort of see what you're driving at; somehow when I Play Scenario, I'm not the same Company 1. Yes? How to fix?
19:09:56 <xiong> I do notice a [company] section but it only contains Autorenew settings, not Maintenance.
19:10:53 <xiong> For that matter, I have the same variables set in the [vehicle] section of the file.
19:10:58 <Pikka> not the same company as what, xiong?
19:11:08 <Pikka> there is no company when you're in the scenario editor
19:11:12 <xiong> Pikka, I have no idea; I'm groping.
19:11:35 <Pikka> when you start a new game, or when you start playing a scenario, a new company is created, and uses the settings from your config
19:11:42 <xiong> Can you tell me how to retain my Autorenew and Maintenance settings when playing a scenario I've created myself?
19:12:18 <Pikka> set them from the main menu before playing the scenario
19:12:46 <frosch123> VehicleDefaultSettings and CompanySettings
19:13:10 <frosch123> it does not matter where they are set in the gui, they are likely scattered across all of them :p
19:14:14 <xiong> Pikka, I've checked; they are correctly set when examined from the Main Menu.
19:16:44 <xiong> Lines 2..4, 21..25 appear to be ignored when I play a scenario I have created... with these settings in effect during scenario creation and in Main Menu before play.
19:17:59 <xiong> Note that all other settings, in this section and others, appear to be retained. I've looked and not found any other discrepancies.
19:19:15 <frosch123> is it a new scenario or some old one?
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19:24:29 <andythenorth> wtf to how do it though?
19:25:15 <supermop> yes it could get messy andy
19:25:43 <Pikka_> www.pikkarail.com/ttd/rookery_mockup.png
19:26:01 <Pikka_> those tiny victorian brick terraces are looking pretty idyllic
19:26:44 <andythenorth> I had an idea to make FIRS textile mill a collection of stone cottages before a certain date (home weavers)
19:26:54 <andythenorth> like what you has drawn
19:27:14 <Pikka_> well these aren't stone cottages so much as squalid crapheaps
19:28:45 <andythenorth> so what I have no idea about is cargo support for stations
19:28:55 <andythenorth> is it action 3? action 2? action 0?
19:29:01 <andythenorth> everything is upside down in stations
19:29:02 <Pikka_> you mean the pilingupness?
19:29:08 <Pikka_> stations are very silly
19:29:09 <andythenorth> it's like alice in fricking wonderland, stations
19:29:24 <andythenorth> really I should just refuse until my coder comes back
19:29:32 <andythenorth> but he's out looking for somewhere to live
19:30:07 <andythenorth> you know you need UK stations
19:30:17 <Pikka_> I've resorted to using japanese stations
19:30:21 *** Pikka_ is now known as Pikka
19:30:33 <andythenorth> I supposed I could read the actual nfo, instead of the cpp stuff
19:30:52 <Pikka> since MBs stations don't look so good with my tracks :)
19:31:27 <andythenorth> they are special
19:32:08 <Rubidium> diaper changing stations aren't that special ;)
19:33:30 <andythenorth> shall I release this thing without the livestock tiles?
19:33:42 <andythenorth> as I have no idea how to do them, and can't be bothered to learn
19:34:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: could you do a station that was just plain grass?
19:34:36 <andythenorth> it would be the same green grass in all climates
19:34:50 <FLHerne> Would be useful for reversing sidings etc
19:34:57 <Rubidium> that'll look odd in toyland :(
19:35:23 <FLHerne> Is it not possible to do climate-detection?
19:36:30 <FLHerne> Mud platforms it is then
19:38:26 <supermop> i think trees should be allowed on owned land
19:39:10 <supermop> ie player planting trees on player own land is possible and does not remove ownership
19:39:32 <supermop> and furthermore, buying land with trees on it does not cut down the trees
19:40:38 <supermop> maybe it still has a (smaller) effect on town rating
19:42:19 <andythenorth> what I miss is hth to provide different graphics for cargo waiting
19:42:35 <supermop> but this way you can hold land without destroying it
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19:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> since MBs stations don't look so good with my tracks :) <-- well there exists an update, but... you know MB :)
19:55:07 <andythenorth> how did anyone ever manage to code stations?
19:55:13 <andythenorth> is there a reference implementation I can copy?
19:55:19 <andythenorth> it's just black magic
19:55:31 <andythenorth> how does the action 2 magically choose sprites from the action 1?
19:55:38 <andythenorth> it makes really no sense
19:56:28 <andythenorth> ^ according to spec, that should magically produce cargo waiting sprites when (some condition I don't understand) is met
19:57:11 <andythenorth> how does the action 0 know to magically use different sets from the action 1? Does the offset increase?
19:58:04 <andythenorth> "The sets from the most recent action1 to use for this set-ID, for each stage of numlittlesets and numlotssets, i.e. in total numlittlesets+numlotssets entries."
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19:58:49 <Pikka> well, I guess that numlittlesets and numlotssets is a crude way to do waiting cargo sprites
19:59:08 <Pikka> so you don't need the variables I linked at all
19:59:40 <drac_boy> is he already trying to code FIRS cargo stations? :)
20:00:37 <drac_boy> heh, have fun with it :p
20:01:24 <frosch123> err, the layout specifies which sprites to use from a set
20:01:31 <frosch123> the normal a123 selects the set to use
20:01:53 <xiong> Sorry, frosch123; I got distracted.
20:02:45 <xiong> frosch123, I created the scenario on 2012 Apr 03.
20:02:52 * drac_boy isn't sure I'll do that much of stations, just probably static ones and/or leave it to be compactible with jcindust.grf instead
20:03:08 <frosch123> xiong: well, please create a bug report then :)
20:03:13 <andythenorth> afaict Yexo has coded existing stations without cb14
20:03:39 <xiong> I would, frosch123; but you've got a bug report system that's only open to developers.
20:03:52 <andythenorth> or people who bother to register :)
20:04:05 <Alberth> devs also have to register :p
20:04:11 <xiong> At first I wasn't even sure it was a bug; I thought it might have been lack of comprehension.
20:04:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: quite possible, usually they have the same bounding box layout anyway
20:05:23 <frosch123> xiong: you have to registers to post stuff, yes
20:05:41 <frosch123> only reading is free :)
20:05:50 <xiong> It's not clear to me, sorry. /me looks.
20:06:16 <andythenorth> -1 * 0 02 04 00 80 00 10 02 \wx00 \wx01
20:06:19 <andythenorth> what's that doing?
20:08:36 <xiong> Ah! I seem already to have an account.
20:09:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's a random action 2
20:10:05 <frosch123> it uses random bit 16 (the first shared random bits) to select between sets 0 and 1
20:14:04 <Pikka> if "largertowns is enabled, and it allows to grow this town larger " in town var 40 == the "city" flag in OpenTTD?
20:15:12 <frosch123> 2 if the advanced setting for larger towns is disabled
20:15:19 <frosch123> 1 if the town is a larger town
20:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a setting for larger towns?
20:16:04 <frosch123> you can set the amount of larger towns
20:16:07 <frosch123> and 0 disables it or so
20:17:08 <FLHerne> What does "make: *** [all] Error 1" actually mean?
20:17:37 <FLHerne> I know it means that I got the patch updating wrong again, but other than that it doesn't tell me much
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20:18:45 <andythenorth> do I need to define a layout per cargo state in action 0 or is it magic?
20:19:13 <drac_boy> hmm anyone here know a bit deutsch? I'm just curious about why two words are the way they are (I already know the translation btw)
20:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: "1" is the return code of the last program
20:19:46 <xiong> If I've done that wrong, please tell me.
20:20:19 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Would that be gcc then in this case?
20:20:32 <teggiiii> what on earth happened to the lights
20:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that should be in one of the previous lines
20:20:49 <drac_boy> question is... how come Tenderlokomotive is for a tank locomotive while Schlepptenderlok is for a tender locomotive ... I just don't seem to really understand why the former word is the way it is
20:21:02 <teggiiii> i've got two tracks next to eachother, one back and one forth between two stations, and lights in both direction (driving on the right side basically), and two trains just went on a set of tracks each
20:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: "schleppen" means "drag", so a "Schlepptenderlok" drags a tender, while a "Tenderlok" has a builtin tender
20:21:39 <drac_boy> teggiiii you sure its normal light not Path lights? because the latter can be passed at wrong-direction
20:21:50 <teggiiii> drac_boy honestly not sure
20:22:04 <drac_boy> eddi why couldn't I think of that. thanks as usual -_-
20:22:43 <teggiiii> drac_boy seems they are path lights.. :) thanks
20:22:51 <FLHerne> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/francis/ottdsrc/openttd5/objs/release' make: *** [all] Error 1
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20:23:18 <frosch123> FLHerne: that line is pointless, you have to look at the error before that
20:23:36 <drac_boy> teggiiii well change it to normal lights and presto it can't be used wrong-direction
20:23:43 <drac_boy> hope that solves your simple problem heh
20:23:53 <FLHerne> Compiling the sqvm I believe: [SRC] Compiling 3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp
20:24:03 <drac_boy> teggiiii I'll never understand why its set as the default tho..not a very good idea
20:24:31 <teggiiii> i concur, i just used the regular hotkey and placed my signals as i did before :p
20:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> teggiiii: the rightmost signal is a path signal that block going backwards (it should have a red sign or something on the back)
20:24:57 <FLHerne> Odd, because none of the patches I've been poking modify that file in any way :/
20:25:13 <drac_boy> teggiiii mm well since I usually do many single lines I always use the basic signals by default, programmable ones once in a while. and well I do use PBS in a rare junction at times
20:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: if you do "make -j<n>" or something, the last line needn't be the one with the error
20:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: better you give us the full log, though, instead of pasting random lines :)
20:26:46 <drac_boy> eddi so I guess 'dampflokomotive' would be the generic word 'steam locomotive' while the two terms mentioned above would differ the two types but they're still steam unless noted regardingly. am I thinking correctly here? :)
20:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the word "dampf"/"steam" is redundant in those cases, yes
20:29:37 <FLHerne> Now it happens when I use the same patch that I compiled earlier... :|
20:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: try an unpatched build? that log really does not show anything relevant
20:31:43 <frosch123> try "make clean" or "./configure"
20:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: but if it was an actual code error, gcc usually returns "2", not "1", that is more a general "something fishy is going on" error
20:32:42 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Does checking out everything from the repo again count?
20:32:53 <FLHerne> Will try building plain trunk
20:34:36 <Wolf01> I tried *everything*, it disconnected me after 50MB
20:35:09 <FLHerne> Ok...'Everything' being complete source for current trunk in this case:P
20:35:21 <Wolf01> I wanted to checkout trunk only, but I missed the /trunk/ part on the url
20:36:55 <Alberth> Wolf01: I always do a 'svn ls .....' first to check that I am copying what I think I am ;)
20:37:08 <FLHerne> I did that earlier - noticed after a few minutes though :P
20:39:36 <drac_boy> optional question, would '2-axles' in english translate to '2 Achsen'?
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20:40:18 <FLHerne> Trunk doesn't break, my version still does. Presumably broke something in that patch since the last time I compiled, and then forgot :P
20:40:49 <andythenorth> this causes cargo to flip between 'none' and 'lots', missing out 'some'
20:40:54 <andythenorth> also the buy menu shows 'lots'
20:41:17 <frosch123> what's the threshold in action?
20:41:36 <andythenorth> prop 10 action 0
20:42:07 <xiong> Well, in any case, I did not discover the lost settings issue until well into a game. I've changed the settings but now I'm stuck. Autorenew is not a problem but what can I do about maintenance interval? I have 7 trains; I can chnage those by hand. I have 72 road vehicles; I cannot, reasonably.
20:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: alternatively could say "2-achsig"
20:42:34 <andythenorth> it appears to flip around 250 items waiting
20:44:18 <andythenorth> it's almost as though the action 1 is wrong
20:44:31 <andythenorth> it goes from first sprite to third in spritesheet ^
20:46:41 <frosch123> i think you have to swap the order of sprites
20:46:46 <frosch123> x and y should alternate
20:46:58 <andythenorth> afaict the other CHIPS stuff doesn't
20:47:43 <frosch123> i cannot remember :)
20:48:14 * andythenorth wonders if the other CHIPS tiles are bugged and nobody noticed :)
20:49:07 <drac_boy> eddi so I could go with either '2 Achsen Tender' or '2-achsig Tender' I'm assuming?
20:49:44 <drac_boy> andythenorth don't you think they look a bit too oinkly CLEAN?? heh :-)
20:50:00 <Rhamphoryncus> About where is the threshold for CHIPS? I've got one going right now
20:50:18 <andythenorth> I don't understand the code :)
20:50:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: that's false, some andythenorth noticed
20:51:54 * andythenorth remembers how to write CPP
20:52:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I'm only seeing one sprite. 0 is empty, 1 through 100 has the same large pile of coal
20:52:36 <Rhamphoryncus> Didn't go past that
20:55:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r24099 /trunk/src/ (debug.cpp debug.h openttd.cpp): -Add: Output list of -d option facilities with in the help text.
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21:10:34 <drac_boy> hmm was just thinking about something off to the side..can a locomotive have different sprites depending on which railtype it is running on at the moment?
21:14:47 <Rhamphoryncus> I heard it suggested earlier. Dunno if it's actually in the code
21:15:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Overhead vs third rail would be an example
21:15:29 <Rubidium> drac_boy: sadly enough, for performance, they can
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21:16:54 <drac_boy> pikka heh I was just thinking about the extra zoom-in level thats present in Chrill build then I was thinking that it could be interesting to draw the pantographs on dual-mode locomotives in either up or down position to look more relastic :)
21:17:37 <drac_boy> and thats just a simple example, I probably could think of more others
21:19:09 <Pikka> the 92 in UKRS2 lowers its pantograph on 3rd rail
21:19:18 <Pikka> the rest don't because I couldn't be bothered
21:19:25 <andythenorth> CHIPS 0.7.0 might be done
21:19:28 <andythenorth> should I release it?
21:19:32 <andythenorth> or can I go to bed instead?
21:19:54 <Pikka> if it only might be done, then sleep on it
21:20:09 <andythenorth> it only might be done
21:20:17 <andythenorth> need to make a tile date sensitive
21:20:26 <andythenorth> as massive silos in 1850 would look silly
21:20:42 <andythenorth> also the wifi here is crappy :P
21:22:04 <xiong> Console output: "'servint_ispercent' is an unknown setting."
21:22:46 <drac_boy> andythenorth you can set station tiles to be released on certain dates...its already simple I think
21:23:05 <drac_boy> japstat does it with the non-rail tower buildings
21:30:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: another thought: cache the size on each vehicle, ignore size changes that happen in response to just rendering (treat them as an error).
21:31:30 <Rhamphoryncus> That assumes you can isolate all the state of that callback so that it can be per-client
21:37:09 <andythenorth> not releasing now though
21:37:11 <andythenorth> CHIPS for breakfast
21:44:50 <drac_boy> anyway looks like I got all steam locomotives and wagons finished except for prices ... still trying to decide with the diesels/electrics :-/
21:52:20 <FLHerne> drac_boy: What set are you making?
21:54:05 <drac_boy> fhlerne its hmm like a small generic set. not related to any country (although certain details such as signals may resemble a specific one after all)
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21:58:15 <drac_boy> flherne maybe you could try out the vehicles-only beta grf that'll come out somewhere this month if you want to ;)
21:58:21 <FLHerne> Ok, sounds interesting
21:58:53 <FLHerne> I'll test it if I can get this ridiculous mish-mash of patchesto actually compile :P
22:02:56 <FLHerne> I got fed up with Chill's pack, so I started trying to make my own. I now know why his is so far behind trunk. '<
22:03:38 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh sorry i can't help with that :)
22:03:49 <drac_boy> so you want know why I started thinking about this grf I'm currently working on now? :)
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22:26:37 * Rhamphoryncus ponders a NOT signal, so you can have edge triggered logic
22:27:29 <drac_boy> heh I dunno what you're trying to do :)
22:28:02 <Rhamphoryncus> It'd grossly simplify using signals for logic
22:28:23 <Rhamphoryncus> You could release a train when another goes by, rather than only blocking trains
22:28:24 <drac_boy> logic? if its red....stop :P
22:33:52 <Rhamphoryncus> All I want is a simple flip-flop, but working around the race conditions of not having edge triggers adds a ton of work
23:04:18 * Rhamphoryncus gets his butt kicked in 1923 by property maintenance
23:05:12 <drac_boy> heh have a lot of slow roads or something?
23:08:20 <Rhamphoryncus> long sprawling roads and rails, plus I'm using FIRS and haven't done any farmsup/engsup so the volume is very low, plus I'm testing a tweak to coal/oil payment that's probably pushing them down further
23:08:26 <Rhamphoryncus> plus my stupid bridge trick XD
23:09:21 <drac_boy> heh well I don't know what to tell you as usual :-)
23:11:18 <Rhamphoryncus> I might pull out of it, but it'll involve several years of saving up to build 25 tiles of road and a few trucks to deliver goods to a town, causing it to grow and feed the pax trains sufficiently
23:12:01 <drac_boy> 25 tiles? just why are you using such a high value in basecost? :)
23:12:06 <Rhamphoryncus> If it was a real company I'd liquidate half the assets
23:12:27 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm literally on the brink. Had one bankruptcy warning already
23:12:42 <Rhamphoryncus> It's bouncing above and below $0
23:13:21 <Sahri> Why the high base costs for roads
23:13:28 <Rhamphoryncus> They're *not* high
23:13:35 <Sahri> or infrastructure in general
23:13:53 <Rhamphoryncus> We're talking $9000 for the roads
23:13:58 <Sahri> Oh. I thought you were using a GRF that altered that
23:14:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I simply have too little volume for my infrastructure
23:14:26 <Sahri> Ohh you just started out with low funds
23:14:31 <drac_boy> 9000? hmm well to me that might be rather high but I guess we maybe have different ideas of what the 'road surface' should be :)
23:14:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Started with half a million loan limit
23:14:59 <Rhamphoryncus> And until recently I had it payed off
23:15:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Spent it all.. and now going into debt :)
23:15:16 <Sahri> i usually start out with 200.000 and borrow 800.000 more
23:15:23 <xiong> Sorry; I have to ask one final time; I have a lot of time invested in this game. Is there any way to reset the maint intervals for all vehicles, short of popping open each GUI? If I can't figure this out, the game is going into the bit bucket.
23:16:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Most people turn off breakdowns
23:17:11 <drac_boy> I usually start with like 300,000 to 1050,000DEM depending on what kind of map I was thinking of doing
23:17:35 <drac_boy> 300,000DEM barely gets you one full trainset with some tracks and a bit left over to tidy out till the profits builds up
23:17:48 <xiong> Yes, it's tempting to play without breakdowns. More than once I've been tempted to play with more money, too, or allow player to destroy things arbitrarily, such as misplaced industries.
23:18:08 <Sahri> I usually hunt for subsidies to pay off my debt to the bank fast
23:18:34 <Sahri> Wouldn't you need a GRF to do that?
23:18:36 <Rhamphoryncus> 32 trains, 51 road vehicles, 6 ships, 4630 rail pieces, 1048 road tiles, 201 station tiles
23:18:41 <drac_boy> sahri I don't bother..they're always often crappy ones, not to mention that a lot of the times its only like 10-20 tiles apart...not very helpful for distance/profit ratio :)
23:18:49 <xiong> But if there are no breakdowns then it becomes possible to build a perfect network, given enough patience; nothing ever disturbs the perfect balance. Life is not perfect.
23:19:17 <Rhamphoryncus> If you know how you can build a perfect network with breakdowns too. It just takes twice as many tracks.
23:19:23 <xiong> Most of my designs revolve around breakdown tolerance.
23:20:11 <xiong> Sorry, Rhamphoryncus; that won't work. Even a four-track line can jam if there are simultaneous breakdowns; and it's almost impossible to design a true dual path at all points.
23:20:34 <Rhamphoryncus> uhh, do it properly :P
23:20:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Even brief interruptions don't matter. It's total throughput that counts
23:21:24 <drac_boy> I'll be honest but I play with breakdowns off because in RL my locomotives would had taken monthly rotations out of the repair shed. and spend a light overhaul each few years
23:21:28 <xiong> Brief interruptions fall under the heading of less-than-perfect. I manage, even with breakdowns, to maintain extremely consistent service.
23:21:32 <Sahri> The whole passenger issue is still annoying me though. Even in a town with a population of 2k I still can't attract that many passengers. And I have turned off that option where cargo only pops up if there's a demand
23:21:36 <drac_boy> so the game's breakdown would be too unrelastic for my mode
23:21:52 <Sahri> I don't mind having 1k passengers wait XD
23:22:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Sahri: throw a screenshot on imgur
23:22:23 <Sahri> Well, it was on my old savegame which I threw away
23:22:25 <Rhamphoryncus> I also find the breakdown noise grating
23:23:18 <Rhamphoryncus> I've got a town of 700 people that's doing 22/month (max 83)
23:23:26 <xiong> Sahri, I have found it most useful to run not only a feeder service but "keeper" service. Buses and trucks are ordered repeatedly to the same station; the order is "Transfer and take cargo".
23:24:52 <xiong> drac_boy, I agree that the breakdown rate, even "Reduced", is excessive. Before all just give up and play with no breakdowns at all, it might be good simply to rename "Reduced" to "High" and add a "Low" rate.
23:26:34 <Rhamphoryncus> There's an improved breakdowns patch out there that adds more variety
23:26:55 <drac_boy> xiong I'm planning to not factor in reliability with my grf anyhow, and if anyone complains I'll just tell them to use a different grf then - simple enough :)
23:27:33 <xiong> What will your grf do, drac_boy?
23:27:47 <Rhamphoryncus> The whole logic is broken though. There's actually two counters: one goes up (it's invisible), the other goes down (the one you see). When they meet you get a breakdown and the first one resets. The second one resets when you get maintenance
23:27:50 <Rhamphoryncus> (the actually formula may be slightly different, but afaik that's the result)
23:28:46 <drac_boy> xiong, what do you mean by that question?
23:28:49 <xiong> Ye gods, Rhamphoryncus; that's awful. I had no idea. That explains why my vehicles break down right out of depot. You can't actually avoid breakdowns, then; not even with near-continuous depoting.
23:29:17 <xiong> drac_boy, you said "my grf". I want to know what sort of grf it is... or will be.
23:30:19 <xiong> There *is* an improved breakdowns patch; it's included in chillpack. Why not trunk it?
23:30:36 <drac_boy> xiong ah its a small generic set.. doesn't correspond to anything real (although signals etc would resemble a particular real example on other hand)
23:30:47 <xiong> I've tried it and I think it, too, has too many breakdowns. But at least there's some variety to them.
23:30:54 <drac_boy> eg just a "2-6-0 tender locomotive" etc
23:31:10 <xiong> Well, you mean a vehicle set. Okay.
23:31:19 <drac_boy> not ust vehicle but a combined set
23:31:30 <xiong> So your vehicles will all come with 100% max reliability?
23:33:00 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: I suspect that patch doesn't change when breakdowns happen, just what happens when one triggers
23:33:09 <xiong> Well, I will take 100% max; it's a good step.
23:33:59 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, there is certainly a setting for breakdown frequency; it's a Difficulty Setting. Why not just increase its range... on the low end?
23:34:09 <xiong> Not a perfect solution but an improvement.
23:34:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Exactly. It's a patch, not a fix
23:34:56 <Rhamphoryncus> A fix is possible, it just needs to be designed and implemented
23:34:56 <xiong> I'd accept a nasty kludge with a bag on it, if that's all I could get.
23:35:32 <xiong> I think I understand why the silly counter business. Otherwise, you'd be hitting the PRNG all the time, for each vehicle; and that's way expensive.
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23:38:07 <drac_boy> xiong the reason I decided to start with vehicles but slowly make it somewhat a completed set was because of certain differences especially building scale. bit hard to explain it, you'll just have to wait a few months to see some mockups of that
23:39:45 <argent0> Hi, I'm playing with AI development I wonder where are the enums like CargoClass declared? Which library should import or require?
23:44:34 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: no, there's other ways of doing it that'd be better
23:44:51 <Rhamphoryncus> But I bet the original TT author didn't know about htem
23:45:01 <drac_boy> xiong as for 100% reliabilty well thats not possible. the vehicles always age over time meaning lower %
23:46:48 <xiong> Of course they age. So starting at 100% max reliability would at least lessen breakdown frequency.
23:47:47 <argent0> Ok, I found it! FYI its AICargo.CC_PASSENGERS
23:47:49 <xiong> So in all this time, nobody thought to fix breakdowns... or just remove them? This is an argument against allowing them to be disabled.
23:48:35 <drac_boy> xiong one of the other thing I had been thinking about was the unoffical dayextend hack on the exe itself. just a way to slow down the rapid years in-game :) (I dunno if theres anything similar for ottd too tho)
23:48:55 <drac_boy> would make it easier to play a longer 1920-1970 period basically
23:49:21 <xiong> Well, I don't know if I even want to get into a discussion of scale. I absolutely agree it needs fixed.
23:49:46 <xiong> It's not quite as bad as RRT2, where a train could literally take years to complete a route.
23:50:55 <Rhamphoryncus> s/fixed/improved/
23:51:03 <xiong> Often I built trains and started them off to a BS intermediate station, then built the track in sections to the final destination, changing orders all the time. By the time the train arrived, it was obsolete, so I sold it. By then, of course, I'd already have bought new ones and started them off.
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23:52:09 <xiong> Time and space scales are all way off.
23:52:49 <Rhamphoryncus> There's two aspects to improve on: day length (game time) and vehicle speed (real time). The latter is more important for gameplay, but harder
23:52:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Of course they are, it's a game :P
23:53:03 <xiong> Hot tip: It does not take even a 1-horse horse carriage a month to circle the block.
23:53:26 <drac_boy> well Rhamphoryncus thats why I decided to go with a different scale for everything so 'one tile' would resemble a more relastic 'one tile' than it does at the current scale
23:53:41 <xiong> "Game" implies winning and losing, which is more or less impossible here.
23:53:49 <drac_boy> hard to explain now tho, you'll have to wait for the early trains-only grf to see
23:54:13 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: nuh uh :P
23:54:49 <drac_boy> ever heard of the saying "its just a game!" meaning to stop taking it too seriously :p
23:54:54 <Rhamphoryncus> (Besides, I'm clearly proving that it's possible to lose *g*)
23:55:23 <xiong> I can't imagine what combination of custom factors would introduce an element of real risk.
23:55:53 <xiong> I imagine one could stack them so heavily that play would become impossible; but I wouldn't know how.
23:56:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Next thing you know you'll be arguing that we don't accurately model expansion of steam in the boiler, as influenced by different grades of coal, and what effect it has on wear and passenger comfort :P
23:56:13 <xiong> No, I'm not a silly person.
23:56:31 <xiong> I'm a serious person, which silly people tend to think is... silly.
23:56:40 <drac_boy> heh Rhamphoryncus try fire a steam locomotive on high grade dry coal verus one that has a lot of half-dirt wet coals cinkering up easily :)
23:57:13 <xiong> Clue: I don't play Toyland.
23:57:53 <drac_boy> you mean toyland as-is or toyland with a nice grf for it? :P
23:58:24 <xiong> I've played quite a few games until I hit several million dollars in hand; I don't see what possible chance there is to lose.
23:58:59 <xiong> I suppose if you're inexperienced enough, you can blow it all at start. I've seen enough AIs do just that.
23:59:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Startup can be challenging, depending on your settings and newgrfs
23:59:23 <Rhamphoryncus> The game was originally challenging to me, many years back
23:59:35 <Rhamphoryncus> and several million? A few games back I hit 3 billion
continue to next day ⏵
