IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-05
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01:29:52 * drac_boy pokes the stubborn box?
01:30:01 <drac_boy> heh just being a bit silly...probably just going to go to bed soon
01:43:28 <drac_boy> hi Nat_aS doing anything?
01:56:26 <drac_boy> same here, might go to bed soon likewise
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07:36:44 <__ln__> is there a latin or greek based, scientific-sounding term for taking the dog out for a walk?
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10:55:50 <V453000> I see the forum section of Problems with OpenTTD is particularly funny
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14:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that was the wrong textbox
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14:42:09 <peter1138> that's not a very secure password
14:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that wasn't even a password :)
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15:10:20 * andythenorth does some low-level ponder
15:10:38 <andythenorth> mostly about how much codeine can safely be eaten for backache
15:10:57 <CornishPasty> eat ALL THE CODEINE! *disclaimer: Not a doctor*
15:11:36 <blathijs> codeine, is that the stuff compilers run on? :-)
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15:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> codeine is basically a "depleted" version of heroine
15:18:24 <CornishPasty> Refined, Eddi|zuHause :P
15:18:42 <CornishPasty> It's still hallucinogenic and addictive
15:18:49 <andythenorth> codeine does not help me understand that industry code
15:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: well. "depleted" uranium is still radioactive...
15:19:19 <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: I know :P
15:23:07 * andythenorth wishes industry closure would just go away
15:26:17 <andythenorth> can I remove closure from FIRS?
15:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: didn't we have this discussion already a year ago?
15:27:21 <andythenorth> closure doesn't work
15:27:26 <andythenorth> it's costing me boring support time
15:27:32 <andythenorth> I don't use it in my games
15:27:36 <andythenorth> hence, removal I think
15:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> in how far is it supposed to "work"?
15:28:32 <andythenorth> seems to be based on transport and/or received cargo
15:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why need it be more than a simple switch "no closure"/"default closure"?
15:29:01 <andythenorth> because if I leave it at 'default closure', I get support requests, but I like your idea
15:29:13 <andythenorth> do you have a newsletter? I wish to subscribe...
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15:48:00 <andythenorth> anybody care to comment...is FIRS ok to mark as 1.0?
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15:52:28 * Zuu usually plays with the default industries. He could say both yes or no :-)
15:54:27 <andythenorth> every time I get a FIRS support request, my heart sinks :P
15:59:56 <Zuu> I never really got any bug reports from anyone unless asking for them for one of my larger projects. Thus there is not really any point of doing RCs or Betas :-p
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16:02:17 <Zuu> I have noticed though that while the Windows downloads are more, only 10% of the windows visitors get the program while about 50% of the linux visitors get it. Of course with reservation for errors in the statistics etc. But its an interesting relation.
16:21:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: does it feature several economies? :p
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17:10:51 <jackyf> hi people, I'm trying to understand the cargo delivery start date (and can't find anything about it in wiki): is it the date when the vehicle starts moving away? or the date when the cargo is loaded to the vehicle? or something else?
17:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> jackyf: when the cargo is loaded
17:21:35 <Belugas> Jim Marshall died today
17:22:05 <Belugas> Rest his soul in peace and long live Rock n Roll!
17:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea who that is
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17:37:27 <jackyf> Eddi|zuHause: ack, thanks.
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17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24094 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt latvian.txt polish.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 11 changes by Parastais
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 20 changes by Kilian
17:45:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by myquartz
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18:38:16 <Alberth> glad there is still life here :)
18:39:03 <isitdoneyet> far as I can see, it's just me, moaning
18:39:30 <Alberth> nothing exciting happened?
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18:41:02 <Tintinfan> hmm does anybody here have any knoweldge on .tcl files :/
18:41:24 <Alberth> yeah, that's quite on-topic :D
18:41:45 <Alberth> I have last seen them I think 12 years ago or so :)
18:41:55 <Tintinfan> Well I am trying toget autopilot ap+ to work on a VPS
18:42:15 <Tintinfan> however, the .tcl file refuses to load.
18:43:00 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause: Jim Marshall is the founder of the Marshall amps company. He's the one who created those superb amps that defined the sound of rock and metal for such a long period of tine :)
18:43:17 <Tintinfan> arrrghhh i think it might work now
18:43:26 <Tintinfan> the joys of linux command line
18:43:55 * Alberth enjoys that much indeed :)
18:44:06 <Tintinfan> well it doest seem to work anyway :/
18:44:25 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause: he created his first amps out of the Fender amps, at that time, so England could have their own british amps (Fender been american)
18:44:25 <Alberth> ok, problem solved thus, and I didn't even ask a counter question :p
18:44:41 <Tintinfan> gah the problems have only just started!
18:45:53 <Alberth> wow, it's as recent as Nov 2011. I thought it was long dead
18:46:27 <Alberth> Tintinfan: if it makes you feel better :) It is about 100% certain I won't know what to do with it :)
18:47:20 <Alberth> don't know about autopilot stuff either, sorry
18:50:48 <Tintinfan> well this seems tobe a pain :P
18:51:46 <Alberth> automagic systems always are
18:54:14 <Alberth> but nobody seems to bother to make a better solution available
18:54:44 <Alberth> not that we really need it, given that we often have more servers than online players
18:59:40 <Alberth> nice, I even installed LaTeX :)
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19:18:54 <xiong> Hey, did RC4 move openttd.cfg? It started with a few settings wrong; I checked and the file is fine.
19:21:01 <drac_boy> xiong looks like that actually makes two of us now weirdly enough, I think theres something broken about ottd not checking its own place first
19:22:00 <xiong> In fact, what I just said makes no sense. Virtually all settings, grfs, and so forth were properly set. The game must have loaded the file.
19:22:12 <Rubidium> I'd be surprised if it did
19:22:28 <Rubidium> but... maybe you've been playing with some patched versions of OpenTTD
19:22:57 <xiong> Previous game played with RC2.
19:24:59 <xiong> The lost settings all seem to do with maintenance. I had the intervals set to percents; and fairly well tuned, too, I thought. I just discovered that the reason I'm having so many breakdowns is that my maints were all in days.
19:25:38 <drac_boy> so hmm zxbiohazardxz isn't here but anyone else interested in a quick but decent game using chrill's ottd build?
19:25:54 <FLHerne> Is the most recent infra-sharing patch actually for r22944?
19:26:04 <Rubidium> that's ancient so it breaks my configuration file ;)
19:26:27 <FLHerne> It doesn't apply cleanly to it
19:26:30 <Rubidium> FLHerne: doesn't sound wrong; maybe it's included in some patch pack
19:26:41 <Rubidium> FLHerne: it doesn't apply to r22944?
19:26:59 <Rubidium> then it's not for r22944
19:27:17 <FLHerne> Seems like r22943 might work though, the times in the files match better
19:27:33 <Rubidium> r22944 is only language changes
19:27:53 <xiong> I'm sorry, Rubidium; do you have some insight on this? Is the issue obvious but I can't see it?
19:28:15 * drac_boy was going to host it for the record
19:28:41 <FLHerne> Well, may as well try it anyway...definitely claims to be for 22944, I even checked out the source again just in case
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19:29:16 <xiong> I now have 72 RVs and 8 trains, all of which have maint intervals of 150%. Either I abandon the game or manually change each vehicle; I don't know of another solution. You might say I'd like to know how I got here.
19:29:48 <xiong> {Apart from the obvious point that I might have checked this before playing too many years.}
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19:34:26 <FLHerne> Hmm. Predictably, r22943 doesn't work either. Any ideas why that would be?
19:35:00 <drac_boy> btw just wondering about it but would it had been a 0-4-4 or something else for a steam railmotor that had one chassis atop two bogies but only the front one is driven?
19:36:15 <xiong> Oh that's right. The autorenew settings were blown away, too. Just those: autorenew and maint.
19:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i don't think that scheme neatly applies to anything other than pure steam engines
19:38:29 <drac_boy> thats what I was wondering about too. so just call it a 'steam coach' rather than providing the usual axle numbering then I'm going to assume
19:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you don't call a wagon a 4-0-4 either
19:38:58 <drac_boy> ha its not powered :P
19:38:59 <Rubidium> FLHerne: don't use that diff; it seems to be made by someone without much understanding of diff and/or conflict solving
19:39:03 <xiong> Okay, I seem to have found a cutting point on this issue. I start a new game from scratch and settings are all okay. I start from the scenario I created and it's all wrong. But I'm quite certain I did not touch those settings when I created the scenario. Is this a bug or a short between hat and seat?
19:39:05 <drac_boy> btw there is something else I did recall from a website before tho...
19:39:22 <Rubidium> FLHerne: e.g. in the first 'screen' of the diff I already see an unresolved conflict
19:40:06 <FLHerne> Ah, ok. I'll try the one before and see if that works
19:40:45 * FLHerne tries to stick lots of patches together, with limited success
19:41:05 <drac_boy> it explained the whyte system. eg an odd french locomotive might had been a 2-2-4 except that the problem is that it actually had three drive axles not one
19:41:38 <drac_boy> under the whyte system it was a hmm..I forgot now .. but you get the idea :-/
19:42:08 <drac_boy> the photo looked like a normal 0-6-0T except that an idler axle was added near middle due to rail weight restrictions
19:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know that website
19:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> don't remember what it's called though
19:44:10 <drac_boy> at least diesel and electrics are easier to make sense of
19:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the french system has the same problem of describing this engine properly, though. they just count the axles instead of the wheels. so what an english person would call a 0-6-0 a french person would call a 030
19:44:26 <drac_boy> letter for powered axle and number for unpowered axle..or afaik
19:44:27 <xiong> Okay, I have duplicated this. I have entered the editor, checked settings, created the required single town, saved and rechecked the settings. Then I exited the editor and "played" the scenario; and without doing anything else, I first checked settings.
19:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, that's the german system
19:44:48 <drac_boy> so we would have eg A1A-B .... C-C .... B ... etc
19:45:29 <xiong> Essentially, all the settings for autorenew and maintenance have been lost. Is this a bug or a feature?
19:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that would make your steam railcar a B'2'
19:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ' denotes a movable bogey
19:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (instead of a fixed axle)
19:46:29 <drac_boy> I wonder if that technically would make Lima Shay a B'B' and B'B'B' but I have never heard anyone using that tho
19:46:44 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what a shay is
19:47:04 <drac_boy> its a geared locomotive, originally built for cheaply laid logging rails but soon found other uses too
19:47:34 <drac_boy> I think it was specific to north america although a few examples ended up exported to other countries too (not to count out that mexico got a few too)
19:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if each axle is driven by a separate engine, it would be a Bo'Bo', if they are connected to the same engine, it's B'B'
19:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. most modern electric engines are Bo'Bo', some are Co'Co'
19:50:16 <drac_boy> you know that thats probably how they came up with the name for that green diesel in Thomas didn't you? ;)
19:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen Thomas
19:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the germans built a steam engine with axle scheme 1'Do1'
19:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. 4 separately driven axles, instead of being connected by rods
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19:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in whyte-notation that would be something obscure like "2-2-0+0-2-0+0-2-0+0-2-2"
19:53:41 <drac_boy> btw eddi I found the source of the locomotive I was thinking of and it was 4-2-2 not 2-2-4 but still same "problem" exists nevertheless...
19:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it had 8 pistons, each axle being driven by a pair of pistons
19:55:23 <drac_boy> btw eddi german actually had another steam locomotive that had 2 pistons per axle (in a V2 shape..almost like the engine in your car)
19:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the one i mean as well
19:56:35 <drac_boy> ah yeah should had looked first, thats the one
19:57:01 <drac_boy> interesting that they took the body shape of the BR.05
19:58:11 <drac_boy> so what did you think of that supposed 4-2-2? :)
19:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> why not? streamlining was "in fashion" back then. and this was supposed to be an express engine
19:58:54 <drac_boy> yeah, there is that other german streamline I liked but I sometimes keep forgetting the class number too often
19:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it had some problems starting up, but once it was running it was pretty smooth, because not a lot of vibrating mechanical components
19:59:22 <drac_boy> it was a streamlined tank locomotive (not something you usually would think of) for short express trips. and painted in purple+yellow which also matched the coaches it hauled
19:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that's the BR 61
20:00:25 <drac_boy> who else ever did streamlined tank locomotives after all? ;)
20:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the idea was to save time by not having to turn the engine around
20:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: however, bought with the additional cost of refilling on both ends of the line
20:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there's another streamlined tank engine. the BR 60 of the 1936 double-decker trains
20:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it didn't go as fast, though
20:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but it could operate in push-pull service
20:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so didn't need to move to the other end
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20:17:40 <Achilleshiel> anyone knows what the min. income is in the performence?
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20:18:24 <drac_boy> sorry had some problem with stupid bell :-s
20:19:54 <drac_boy> so anyhow the offer's still open for if anyone want try a quick game later on ^_^
20:20:34 <Alberth> Achilleshiel: I would guess the smallest income of a vehicle
20:22:36 * drac_boy never bother with that one particular graph at all
20:23:19 <Alberth> Achilleshiel: maybe you can do that?
20:25:01 <Achilleshiel> maybe, but the min. income and min. profit
20:28:12 <Alberth> tooltip does not explain?
20:28:43 <drac_boy> hmm...to have battery locomotives or not
20:29:56 <Alberth> good for transporting batteries to the toy factory :)
20:30:06 <Alberth> Achilleshiel: it does for me
20:30:21 <Achilleshiel> Alberth: here either:P
20:30:31 <Achilleshiel> but you have to wait for centuries
20:30:46 <Achilleshiel> i will place it on my todo-list:P
20:30:50 <Alberth> switch it to the right mouse button :p
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20:31:30 * FLHerne finishes updating infra-sharing to current trunk (hopefully)
20:31:36 <Achilleshiel> yeah, i knew that:P
20:32:33 <FLHerne> or not, quite a few errors left it seems
20:32:48 <Alberth> FLHerne: until the next Translator commit :)
20:33:24 <FLHerne> this updating thing is a nuisance, especially without much experience with the language
20:33:51 <FLHerne> I'll probably try again tomorrow
20:34:15 <drac_boy> alberth you're funny..I was thinking of real battery locomotives :p
20:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: do smaller steps in the update process at a time. like max 100 revisions, check if there are no conflicts or whether they are easy to resolve. then save your intermediate work in a new diff file and go on. if you find really difficult conflicts, go back to the previous state, and make even smaller steps
20:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: if you know which exact revision conflicts, then that usually has also information in it how to resolve them
20:36:49 <FLHerne> That's what I've been doing, mostly
20:37:19 <FLHerne> It's just that I resolve the conflicts wrong sometimes, and then it doesn't work :-(
20:38:17 <FLHerne> Luckily, there don't seem to be many major changes, so enough trial & error should get me there eventually :P
20:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, infrastructure sharing really doesn't do much beyond removing some artificial "is this the same company" checks
20:45:42 <FLHerne> It probably should do more actually - there are some problems from a gameplay POV
20:46:01 <FLHerne> Convenient for me that it doesn't, though...
20:48:08 <drac_boy> just wondering, can you have a town building that does appear but not end up in too many numbers regardingly of population size?
21:01:53 <DDR> RC4's looking good. Nice work.
21:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: but those are some fairly fundamental conceptual problems. the actual implementation is probably rather trivial
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21:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i had an unfinished and probably buggy patch that removed transfer payment, it always payed actual money for each leg. but this is one giant abuse loophole
21:17:21 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Because you can send cargo in circles endlessly?
21:17:38 <drac_boy> eddi yeah better to just leave it as "paid" in the vehicle profits but not really yet paid till the final vehicle actually arrives to its real endpoint
21:17:42 <Chris_Booth> You show the lights that stop me turn to stone
21:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that's what it does currently. but with that you cannot distribute the income amongst companies
21:18:42 <drac_boy> eddi ah yeah I think jamie was complaining a bit about that when he saw very little profits even although he had a lot of passengers, most of them were transfering off to the other two companies :-s
21:18:45 <FLHerne> Perhaps log the distance travelled by each vehicle, then calculate and pay for each leg when the cargo is delivered?
21:18:56 <drac_boy> I guess thats a hard problem .. I dunno what to tell you :-/
21:19:04 <FLHerne> To the final destination I mean
21:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the company making the final delivery will get all the money
21:19:29 <Chris_Booth> You shine It when I'm alone
21:20:11 <drac_boy> flherne one thing I could think would be to put in an additional check that checked that the cargo did actually unload at the end of the line before paying all player(s) in question?
21:20:23 <drac_boy> so that'll avoid the loophole where A and B keep passing off to each others
21:21:40 <Chris_Booth> what about C drac_boy ?
21:21:43 <FLHerne> What I meant was to count how far each vehicle carried a packet, then on delivery to an industry the profit would be shared according to relative distance by each vehicle
21:22:12 <drac_boy> flherne it'll be interesting to see that
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21:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: a cargopacket can only be of a fixed size, so remembering something "for each vehicle" is a fundamental design change
21:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: ways to achieve that were discussed in the above topic
21:23:44 * FLHerne alternates between reading and typing
21:24:25 <drac_boy> heh I'm doing the same too flherne....typing a lot more into my table here
21:24:33 <drac_boy> not feeling like drawing yet .. maybe tonight or tomorrow :)
21:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: basically the idea was that for each loading into a vehicle, you create a new cargo packet with the same "amount" of cargo, linking the previous one. then you have the whole history available at the delivery. with the cost of larger and more fragmented memory footprint
21:29:59 <FLHerne> oh, that works does it?
21:30:37 <Rubidium> that's going to explode even more than you think, as now packets are much less likely to be merged due to the difference in history
21:30:51 * FLHerne 's keyboard is invaded by dwarf hamsters
21:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think trying to merge packets is useless, actually
21:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: unless at the source station
21:31:56 <Rubidium> currently it's far from useless
21:31:57 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: I think France is useless but that is a different topic
21:32:53 <FLHerne> Luckily 25 grams is too little to press the keys down, which makes them an improvement on rats :P
21:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: anyway, you can't solve the problem sufficiently without recording the full transport history
21:33:00 <Rubidium> as you'd get 4-6 packets into each vehicle of a train and in 95% of the time they can be merged
21:33:29 <Rubidium> just due to gradual loading alone
21:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but that is already more like 75%, because there might be an "age" step between two loading steps
21:37:40 <Rubidium> in any case, currently trying to merge packets costs less time than the extra time needed for iterating over the unmerged packets (loading/unloading/aging)
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21:38:50 <Rubidium> so even if you keep a pointer with history in the cargo packets, you'll spend more time with just moving/aging cargo packets
21:39:06 * drac_boy needs to thank purno for that old but helpful drawing tutorial one day
21:39:43 <Rubidium> hmm... compile speed of roughly 1 file per 2 minutes. OpenTTD's going to take a while till completion
21:40:00 <drac_boy> rubidium what computer is this?
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21:40:34 <FLHerne> I'll bet it's faster than my Powerbook :P
21:41:12 <drac_boy> hmm well if its x86 as a host I'm not too surprised
21:41:35 <FLHerne> also, why are you compiling for SPARC anyway?
21:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "because he can" :p
21:42:29 <Rubidium> though I couldn't reprodue the issue on PPC
21:42:36 <FLHerne> Someone reported a bug on SPARC!?
21:43:02 <Rubidium> anyhow, I'm weird ;)
21:43:09 <FLHerne> True..."why not" answers anything
21:43:12 <Rubidium> I've also ran an OpenTTD server on s390
21:44:06 * __ln__ has run OTTD on Solaris/SPARC
21:45:10 * FLHerne tried on m68k, but without much success
21:45:17 <drac_boy> just wondering but any idea on a different term to use for the few locomotives here rather than 'light' 'heavy' etc? or is that the better way to go even although its not perfect?
21:46:17 <drac_boy> heh thats a funny one
21:46:32 <__ln__> i have also created patches for compiling OTTD on Solaris... so i fail to see what's so strange about someone reporting a bug on SPARC. :)
21:48:09 <drac_boy> rubidium the reason I was wondering about it was because "heavy" just does not seem to really mean what it does when its only heavy in one but not both senses
21:48:19 <drac_boy> but I could just stick with it if I have to
21:48:41 <FLHerne> Never having even seen a SPARC machine, I was surprised that anyone played OTTD on one :P
21:49:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you should come back tomorrow then :p
21:49:14 <drac_boy> flherne I have had thought a bit about one sparc computer but the problem is the high cost just in the cpu alone so its not worth the hassles
21:49:21 <FLHerne> As a persistent m68k and PPC user, I probably shouldn't have been
21:50:09 <drac_boy> I do keep wondering about being able to get one particular acorn computer tho
21:52:56 <drac_boy> you're too funny rubidium :p
21:54:00 <FLHerne> My own dream computer would be a G5 quad, but they're still expensive :-(
21:55:40 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh here they go for about $200-$1200cad depending on configuration and re whether have or not have a lcd to go with it
21:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i don't get this keyboard. it's missing some letters, and they're in a weird order
21:56:13 <drac_boy> $200 usually gets you just the single-1.6 or -1.8 with the base graphic card and maybe keyboard thrown in but no lcd
21:57:36 * Rubidium wonders why an ancient computer could be a dream computer. Isn't one that looks great, does anything you want (almost) instantly, uses very little energy and make no noise besides the sound that's played through the sound card
21:58:04 <Rubidium> also, why is it pay -> paid and play -> played?
21:58:05 <FLHerne> drac_boy I know - I keep looking out for them. I also finally saw your IRC PM thingy
21:58:38 <Rubidium> ohoh... ai_instance.cpp
21:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: because they're silly, these brits
21:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (i'm sure i researched the proper translation for this phrase before, but i keep forgetting)
22:07:02 <drac_boy> going out to eat so..bye for now :)
22:18:58 <michi_cc> Rubidium: I hope the sparc OS is at least sane. I once tried to compile OTTD on a PA_RISC system with HP-UX, which is truely the most shitty system I've ever seen. I gave up after I finding syntax errors in system supplied header files.
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continue to next day ⏵
