IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-04
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00:21:10 <xiong> Well, in the end, I only hit the random industries button once. It takes years to build up pax service, get out of debt, and have enough cash to start the steel chain. I'll let industries open as they please; should be interesting.
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00:24:50 <DDR> I always leave 'getting out of debt' for later, when I can just ctrl-click the repay button and not notice the amount of money disappear.
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02:36:38 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: there are various forms of random distribution. Some make the points equidistant, some treat each point totally independently (which can result in clumps). I believe openttd uses the latter.
02:37:39 <xiong> Well, the word "random", especially in the context of a deterministic computer program, is not entirely specific; I know.
02:38:29 <Rhamphoryncus> It's within the normal application of the word
02:38:45 <xiong> I'm not a normal person.
02:39:51 <xiong> Especially when words relate to math, science, or engineering I'm inclined to give them a technical meaning.
02:40:07 <Rhamphoryncus> random has to do with being unpredictable. In cryptography that has very strong requirements. In a computer game it's much weaker
02:41:27 <xiong> Let me put it this way. I don't expect much from a button in a computer game labeled "Random X".
02:41:39 <Rhamphoryncus> heh, true enough
02:43:08 <xiong> You might consider, on some Baysian grounds, a button that might do something rigidly deterministic to be more random than one designed to be unpredictable; since the operator has no way of knowing beforehand. So predictability is unpredictable.
02:43:47 <Rhamphoryncus> eh, that's about wordplay, not game design
02:44:47 <xiong> No no. Example: When I start a new game normally, the random seed is changed; so if I start several games each one has a different map. This leads me to expect that the New Game button contains a certain amount of randomness.
02:46:10 <xiong> Now when I do a similar thing in the editor, choosing New Scenario, I come with a set of expectations... of more or less the same degree of randomness. But the random seed is not reset and I get exactly the same map as before. This confounds my expectations. So this is *more* random.
02:46:55 <Rhamphoryncus> That's not the same usage of random
02:46:59 <xiong> The more randomness does not last; I adjust my expectations. But for that one trial, greater randomness is displayed by doing something deterministic.
02:48:15 <xiong> The true example of that kind of randomness is Flood Control Dam #3. Each time the game is played, no matter who plays it, the same controls do exactly the same thing. But for each new player, the behavior is utterly unpredictable and unexpected.
02:49:11 <ToxicFrog> You seem to be using "random" here to actually mean "unpredictable without a priori knowledge of the system"
02:49:37 <Rhamphoryncus> If someone spontaneously decides to take a trip you may say they're behaving randomly. That's one usage of random. A random number generator is a different usage, despite obviously being related.
02:49:48 <xiong> That's an extreme case, so you're tempted to wave it away as a matter of perception. But if I have total knowledge of a pseudo-random number generator then it, too, is completely predictable.
02:50:03 <ToxicFrog> Yes. Hence the "pseudo".
02:50:42 <ToxicFrog> (also, a good PRNG satisfies statistical tests for randomness despite not being truly random; also also, the player is not expected to have this intimate knowledge of the PRNG state no matter how many times they play)
02:50:52 <ToxicFrog> "Random" and "unexpected" are not the same thing.
02:51:11 <xiong> So, with no exceptions of which I know, all computer game buttons labeled "Random do this" are either random (as in unpredictable in practice) or deterministic.
02:52:15 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: you're being overly literal of the definitions and losing the nuance of language
02:52:21 <xiong> This is why I say, I don't come to such buttons with many expectations.
02:52:45 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, I thought I was just being questioned for my use of nuance.
02:53:06 <ToxicFrog> You're being questioned because you're using the same word to mean two totally different things in the same conversation.
02:53:31 <xiong> Two? I thought I was using it in at least four different ways. Sorry.
02:53:43 <ToxicFrog> Aah, so you're trolling. kthen.
02:54:17 <xiong> Well, no. I was, at one time, asking if TerraGenesis deliberately clumped towns.
02:54:33 <xiong> That's an intensely practical question.
02:56:10 <xiong> The point of my discussion of the word "random" is that, in practice and unqualified, it has no meaning. So saying that town distribution is random is uninformative.
02:57:14 * xiong licks ToxicFrog to see what happens
02:57:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Actually "random distribution" is part of the jargon. It has a very specific meaning.
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05:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: you're being overly literal of the definitions and losing the nuance of language <-- that is his special power, indeed :)
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07:10:10 <xiong> Not to start another discussion of "randomness" but how are trees generated? I started this scenario and I don't recall planting any trees; yet now I see groves here and there as well as single trees. I'm blasting every tree I see in hopes I can keep them from spreading.
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08:59:28 <zxbiohazardzx> just a quicky question: is it possible to "restart" a game ?
08:59:40 <zxbiohazardzx> i have a map i want to reuse, but i dont have a savegame on the mapload
08:59:53 <zxbiohazardzx> i tried regenerating it based on the seed info, but that didnt work out
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09:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: shape of the map depends on all settings, not only the random seed
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09:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: when you load the game, you can type "restart" in the console
09:06:16 <zxbiohazardzx> restart will restart the map?
09:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: that keeps all settings, but when you have a different openttd version, it may still give different results
09:06:44 <zxbiohazardzx> have to kill newgrfs as well, its my old tayvan game but most grfs got outdated and so did some other stuff of it
09:06:58 <zxbiohazardzx> i can at least give it a shot, 1 moment :)
09:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: used GRFs also change the map
09:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: especially town and industry placement
09:07:38 <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz restart just returned a completely different map
09:07:40 <zxbiohazardzx> im not sure why
09:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: you can also export the heightmap, and then start with random towns
09:08:20 <zxbiohazardzx> i dled my old savegame from the forums :( i dont have my blank map anymore that i used to have
09:08:34 <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz true easy way to export the heightmap of a savegame?
09:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> load in scenario editor, choose save heightmap (in the ? menu i think)
09:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use 1.2.0
09:09:28 <zxbiohazardzx> so i cant load savegames in scn right?
09:09:53 <zxbiohazardzx> although this restart mode in the 1.1.1 at least gave me a more playable map then the restart in r22whatever chrill patchpack i got from romazoon :P
09:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you can, but it's not going to help you
09:10:09 <zxbiohazardzx> i know i build the map on that patchpack though, as i need signals in tunnels to make some of the stuff work
09:10:16 <zxbiohazardzx> but this restart at least returned me the original map :)
09:10:26 <zxbiohazardzx> so now i have to save map and hope i can get it running elsewhere
09:13:12 <zxbiohazardzx> but never mind ill just try to generate a new game that looks like that one
09:13:19 <zxbiohazardzx> in the end i just need a proper mountainious area
09:13:37 <zxbiohazardzx> stupid generator returned me way-to-flat-maps on the settings moutnainious/rough:P
09:14:03 <zxbiohazardzx> any ETA for 1.2.0 being stable
09:14:13 <zxbiohazardzx> as usually RC's break savegame compatibilities
09:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> where the hell did you hear that?!
09:14:49 <zxbiohazardzx> i had it once :P
09:14:55 <zxbiohazardzx> thats how i lost the original savegame :P
09:15:15 <zxbiohazardzx> it was done on one of the RC's for 0.7 or 0.8
09:15:23 <zxbiohazardzx> didnt work in the stable that followed
09:15:33 <zxbiohazardzx> but /care i just want a nice alpine map to fiddle with :P
09:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and where was your bug report about that?
09:16:09 <zxbiohazardzx> i checked on irc, and it seemed it was bad savegame (invalid chunk size?)
09:22:52 <zxbiohazardzx> also in 1.1.1 OpenGFX+Aiports 0.3.0 gives me an disabled
09:23:04 <zxbiohazardzx> no errors on other ones so im not sure why it wont work :P
09:28:00 <zxbiohazardzx> might be conflicting with the TTRS, but it wont give the same warning that the landscape etc do give
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11:01:28 <drac_boy> is it me or can you actually have more than just transmitters and lighthouses for landscape objects in both games now?
11:12:10 <drac_boy> interesting, guess that makes the landscape a lot less bland :p
11:13:05 * drac_boy adds another sheet to deal with objects
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11:38:09 <drac_boy> so objects are unlimited, just more or less limited by the long scrollbar given in the scenario editor dialog right?
11:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's more like 256 in total
11:41:29 <drac_boy> ah..still a lot for the map..ty
11:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause> although you can vary the look of the same object
11:44:14 <drac_boy> hmm so I assume its the same 00 through FF id?
11:44:56 <drac_boy> oh nevermind, said that too soon. found the action0 part.. A-Z and 0-9
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12:03:14 <drac_boy> hm objects does look interesting..will have to look into it later after I finish some of this tho
12:12:58 <drac_boy> heh hi zxbiohazardzx btw it took me a moment to figure that out, were you the third player on jamie's map before?
12:15:05 <zxbiohazardzx> you seen him around lately?:(
12:15:14 <zxbiohazardzx> im in need of the lastest savegame from cincinidi
12:15:30 <zxbiohazardzx> that or a pre-build chrill pack exe :P
12:15:57 <drac_boy> mm well I've not seen him for some time and I've been playing a bit of one small map on my own in the chrill-ottd build but its a bit bored wirth noone else -_-
12:16:56 <zxbiohazardzx> i wanted to start my old tayvan game back up
12:17:04 <zxbiohazardzx> but i dont have the matching patches/grfs anymore
12:17:08 <zxbiohazardzx> so ill start a new game
12:17:17 <zxbiohazardzx> but i really need the signals in tunnels & bridges
12:17:28 <zxbiohazardzx> and i preferably want CBH, but that last is like no-go anywhere soon
12:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there are binaries of chillpp available
12:18:31 <zxbiohazardzx> 1.1.1 based if im correct
12:18:40 <zxbiohazardzx> he didnt update it to a 1.2.0 ish level
12:18:43 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx at least on a good side the break from multiplayer is letting me make a lot of progress on the tracking table and a few sprites for this new grf :p
12:18:59 <zxbiohazardzx> im not an artist nor a good coder
12:19:03 <drac_boy> I'm serious.. 100+ cells filled in and counting :p
12:19:14 <drac_boy> and yeah I'll let someone else do the majority of coding anyhow
12:19:19 <zxbiohazardzx> im just trying to find a nice combo for my next gmae
12:19:35 <zxbiohazardzx> to bad signals in tunnels/bridges isnt in trunk yet :P
12:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: my newgrf's tracking table has more like 800 _lines_ :)
12:19:43 <zxbiohazardzx> they dont like the implementation of it
12:19:47 <zxbiohazardzx> its hacky apparently
12:20:08 <drac_boy> eddi what kind of grf is it?
12:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a train grf
12:20:27 <zxbiohazardzx> it almost works flawless, just pathfinding is tricky if tunnelexit is right next to a junction with PBS
12:20:33 <drac_boy> let me guess..its one of these few world train grfs thats on the forum?
12:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: you can't place signals at arbitrary positions. it doesn't work with path signals, ...
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12:22:58 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx you always could test my prerelease grfs if you were ever up to that :P
12:23:03 <zxbiohazardzx> 14:21] <%ZxBiohazardZx> i have how much newgrfs i have
12:23:03 <zxbiohazardzx> [14:22] <%ZxBiohazardZx> and some are actuallly duplicates, but arent recognised as upgrades
12:23:03 <zxbiohazardzx> [14:22] <%ZxBiohazardZx> 2cc set, US stations and some other grfs didnt version that well in bananas or over time :P
12:23:14 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah i know drac_boy
12:23:43 <drac_boy> I have a pretty small newgrf folder but :)
12:23:43 <zxbiohazardzx> well Eddi you actually have to place an arbritrary signal for the signals to properly accept the tunnel and the following/preceding junction :P
12:23:56 <zxbiohazardzx> i mainly try to use the banana's for everything
12:24:08 <zxbiohazardzx> but i lack a "remove/delete" function in the ingame interface
12:24:10 <zxbiohazardzx> i can download content
12:24:14 <zxbiohazardzx> but i cannot remove content :P
12:24:35 <zxbiohazardzx> and sometimes the .grf names arent helping me with what is this grf
12:24:41 <zxbiohazardzx> while ingame description helps
12:25:09 <drac_boy> well some of the smaller grfs obviously had arthors who didn't quite know what they were doing
12:25:48 <drac_boy> but most of the grfs (as far as I'm using them) are so...like eg jcindust.grf newstat.grf ships.grf dbsetxl.grf etc
12:25:51 <zxbiohazardzx> well 2cc set have knowledgable people
12:26:01 <zxbiohazardzx> but i had the banana's version at all time
12:26:09 <drac_boy> I'm not sure where "jc" came from but meh who cares...indust=industries
12:26:11 <zxbiohazardzx> but most recent will not replace an older one i used in tayvan :(
12:26:26 <zxbiohazardzx> i hated jamie for that
12:26:35 <zxbiohazardzx> he always came with the grf version that was not on banana's
12:28:19 <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah im atm looking what GRFs i want to use
12:28:28 <zxbiohazardzx> and then ill check what version of the game i will use :P
12:28:40 <zxbiohazardzx> to bad i trew away all my old tayvan stuff:(
12:28:55 <drac_boy> mind if I ask you a few other things? (nothing to do with chrill tho)
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12:32:29 <drac_boy> would 'brake car' had made sense to you or what would you had generically call the conductor's wagon on rear of train?
12:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i think "caboose" is the official term
12:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard "brake van" as well
12:36:07 <drac_boy> think I'll start with caboose then, ty
12:36:30 <drac_boy> at least I'll keep it optional for obvious reason .. not like the other real-railway grfs such as ukrs which requires it
12:36:57 <drac_boy> I've seen many new players just lump it as the first wagon behind the locomotive..not very...well...very relastic
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12:39:00 <drac_boy> next .. do you care if your road truck is a cabover or conventional? I know that question seem a bit silly but I still had to ask heh
12:39:26 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah break van or caboose
12:39:54 <zxbiohazardzx> road trucks are by default normal?
12:40:02 <zxbiohazardzx> as we dont have road-trains like in australia
12:40:19 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx a little tidbit: japan engineers use 'break' rather than 'brake' too. I'm not sure where that came from at first but it seem to be their way
12:40:42 <zxbiohazardzx> brake whatever typo
12:41:52 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx btw its not just roadtrains..north america and a little bit of other countries have them too
12:44:31 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx so hmm next one I dunno if you're up for it or not but anyhow...
12:45:24 <drac_boy> seperate road vehicle buy list by type (eg lorry, tractor with one trailer, etc) and refit for cargos or... seperate by cargo types and refit for different body chassis?
12:45:51 <drac_boy> just wanted see what other people would had thought, aside to me and my friend
12:47:12 <EirikhO> Assuming you're on about a newgrf RV set, refit by cargo
12:48:18 <zxbiohazardzx> ah your talking about pulling engine + trailer setups
12:48:41 <zxbiohazardzx> they dont have an additional brake-trailer, the trailer can optionally break:P different approach
12:48:55 <drac_boy> EirikhO hm thats three votes for that one then. thanks
12:50:50 <drac_boy> lol...easy? he's a funny one
12:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: important tidbit: articulated road vehicles cannot use standard roadstop, so at least the single-part trucks must be separate vehicles from the other truck types
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12:57:13 <drac_boy> yeah thats one thing I was complaining about before...no way for an articulated truck to back into a dock at the end of the road like RL ones can :p
12:57:41 <drac_boy> at least I do have a few straight body truck (or lorry, or whatever other terms there are) planned
12:57:42 <peter1138> fell free to supply a patch that supports it properly
12:58:03 <drac_boy> hmm well I'm not up to trying to figure out the source for the patch or anything like it so I'll have to pass
13:01:52 <drac_boy> there was one thing I did think about re depots and objects...
13:02:34 <drac_boy> is there too much problem with drawing an object that is actually 2x1 tiles big but only sits on 1x1 tiles as to overlap something else intentionally?
13:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: check out the dock-object thread in the newgrf forum
13:08:23 <drac_boy> oh is that the ISR v1.0 thread?
13:10:29 * drac_boy left that thread open to read later in the day funny enough
13:15:02 <drac_boy> hm looks like I'm using almost all road vehicle ids now..still a small empty section near middle for 171-187
13:16:24 <peter1138> all road vehicle ids?
13:16:30 <peter1138> still catering for ttdpatch?
13:17:35 <drac_boy> either patch or universal..will have to see what the coder (whoever that'll finally be) thinks of the nfo requests at that point
13:19:32 <drac_boy> andythenorth unless several unofficial patches are finally added to the offical build theres still a lot of things I prefer patch for
13:19:43 <drac_boy> thats all I can really say about it
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13:24:49 <drac_boy> at least if its universal it might still have a few extras only for ottd alone
13:24:58 <drac_boy> especially 3 likely seaplanes
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13:43:57 <drac_boy> hm only figured out 3 more ideas..guess I'll leave the blank ids as they are then
13:48:38 <drac_boy> think I'll take a break soon, have someone else coming for ten heh
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13:55:34 <Belugas> hi drac_boy. good, thanks
13:56:57 <drac_boy> doing ok here, just been a little crazy for about 2 hours but thats about to stop soon :P
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14:17:02 <Belugas> drac_boy, that's my routine for the last... years... so i know how it feels!
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15:07:04 <drac_boy> guess its slow hour in here? heh
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15:19:42 <drac_boy> hi sahri, what now? heh :p
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15:24:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24090 /extra/catcodec/src/ (catcodec.cpp stdafx.h): [catcodec] -Fix: compilation with GCC 4.7
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15:55:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24091 /extra/catcodec/ (Makefile.bundle Makefile.msvc make.bat src/stdafx.h): [catcodec] -Fix: compilation on windows
15:56:17 <drac_boy> someone's busy coding now :)
15:59:38 <drac_boy> anyhow I'm going for a full break now, lunch then other things
16:07:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24092 /extra/catcodec/ (changelog.txt findversion.sh): [catcodec] -Release: 1.0.5
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17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24093 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt french.txt polish.txt):
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 16 changes by OliTTD
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 67 changes by Kilian
17:45:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 changes by Tucalipe
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18:33:19 <Pikka> depots are looking good but I can't release yet as I got convinced to do signals too. D:
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19:08:52 <Alberth> better today (not quite back to 100%, but getting there :) )
19:12:26 <drac_boy> doing anything or just pretty much resting?
19:28:22 * andythenorth hasn't been ill since having children
19:28:39 <andythenorth> not for lack of trying
19:32:21 <frosch123> are they already in kindergarden age?
19:33:38 <Pikka> are these signals confusing enough?
19:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you don't have green signals in britain?
19:34:49 <andythenorth> just the right amount of confusing
19:35:00 <Pikka> it's quite bluish, eddi.
19:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> they all look somewhat yellow
19:35:04 <Pikka> the pink is flashing yellow btw
19:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the blue background is messing with perception, though
19:35:30 <Pikka> the block, pre entrance and pre combo signals have green?
19:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: could be brighter
19:35:54 <drac_boy> pikka semaphores look fine to me
19:36:02 <drac_boy> dunno what to say about the lights, I rarely use these
19:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: could mirror the semaphores for right-side use?
19:36:42 <Pikka> I like the way I have the distant signal on the block signal and not on the path signal, which is the opposite from most sets. sure to screw a few people up. :)
19:37:59 <andythenorth> everything is now
19:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: how does one differentiate a red block signal from a red path signal? they look very alike to me (light version)
19:38:47 <drac_boy> btw a little offtopic but has anyone here compiled grfcodec lately?
19:38:52 <Pikka> the path signal head is 1px taller :D
19:39:12 <Pikka> it did have a feather like the one-way, but I got convinced to remove it
19:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: some idiot thought it a good idea to remove zoom out from my image viewer, so i can't tell how it would look in normal zoom
19:40:01 <Pikka> well, they might be quite confusing
19:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: what's the meaning of the feather in "reality"?
19:40:32 <Alberth> drac_boy: I have been working hard :)
19:41:45 <Alberth> and updating to the latest grfcodec source revision, and compiling worked
19:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: then it would kinda make sense to also have it on the two-way signal
19:42:03 <drac_boy> alberth hmm...what was supposed to come after objs/info.o or you not too sure how to tell?
19:42:29 <Pikka> I thought that eddi, but have been convinced otherwise :)
19:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: by what argument?
19:43:39 <Alberth> but I had an almost up-to-date version
19:43:44 <Pikka> that two-ways are more often used on station exits where there is only one way to go, but the PBS is required to not conflict with incoming trains. and that less is generally more.
19:43:55 <drac_boy> hmm alberth is that the nightly I assume?
19:44:27 <drac_boy> let me paste what I'm stuck on .. maybe I'll try nightly before taking a good look.....
19:45:14 <michi_cc> Pikka: Your smaller-scale sprites are begging for 2x zoom, all the detail... :)
19:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i requested this before: ctrl+scroll for "extra zoom" (beyond configured "max zoom in level")
19:46:59 <Alberth> drac_boy: rebuilding from scratch, I noticed a longer pause after '[CPP] objs/info.o'. Probably a big file
19:48:06 <drac_boy> larger file? mine seem to be it thinks nothing exists where it should
19:48:48 <drac_boy> let me give the nightly folder a try and see if it still repeats that
19:51:06 <Alberth> drac_boy: I bet you didn't read the 0compile.txt file :D
19:51:22 <drac_boy> hmm that might be why, give me a moment to check (and btw why do they always have to split off these -devel from random apps? makes little sense to me)
19:52:09 <drac_boy> albeth the txt file only mentions boost.. not that a seperate boost-devel existed silly :)
19:53:36 <Alberth> *-devel is a Linux packaging concept that didn't exist at the time that text was written :p
19:54:58 <drac_boy> alberth but its a <1 month old folder...surely someone kept oversighting that for a long time? :p
19:56:14 <Alberth> a folder change does not imply they checked all text in all files
19:56:41 <andythenorth> Pikka: you should use more colours also
19:56:48 <Alberth> I am quite sure openttd has a lot of code nobody looked at for ages
19:56:49 <andythenorth> 32bpp gives you millions!
19:57:05 <drac_boy> alberth a text file is a simple matter... it isn't related to coding ;)
19:57:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: that's what they claim, I cannot see it :p
19:57:25 <drac_boy> I can't imagine the court would uphold a license.txt because it didn't mention this year 2012?
19:57:35 <andythenorth> 32bpp is much more realistic :D
19:58:10 <Alberth> drac_boy: if it's not related to coding all the more reason for not reading it by a programmer :p (just kidding)
19:58:48 <Alberth> realism is an illusion, according to physics :)
20:00:38 <drac_boy> alberth btw how do you start grfcodec?
20:00:46 <drac_boy> the app itself that is
20:01:09 <Alberth> ./grfcodec --help or so?
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20:01:33 <drac_boy> oh...hm never would had thought you had to dotslash an app
20:01:53 <drac_boy> first time I seen that...ty ^_^
20:01:57 <Alberth> you only need to do that when it's not in the standard path
20:02:34 <Rhamphoryncus> It used to be common to have the current dir in PATH, but that's highly discouraged now as it's a security issue.
20:03:11 <Alberth> I have a symlink in my $HOME/bin to ../grfcodec/hg_trunk/grfcodec
20:03:54 <Rhamphoryncus> I tried symlinking nmlc. Broke it :P
20:04:41 <Alberth> nmlc -> ../nml/hg_trunk/nmlc this works for me afaik
20:05:28 <Alberth> but I don't use it very often
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20:06:56 <drac_boy> hmm two grfs works but third errors....
20:08:29 <Nat_aS> question, is the splashscreen map in OTTD in any way playable?
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20:08:38 <Nat_aS> I know the spash screen in Simutrans is.
20:09:07 <drac_boy> hmm looks like I should find a second source to download to be sure...
20:09:19 <Alberth> copy the opntitle.dat (?) file to something.sav, and load
20:09:53 <Nat_aS> would that be in the documents or instalation directory?
20:10:55 <Alberth> it's in baseset here, but that's un-installed
20:11:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: hrm, could have been one of the other problems I had that just looked like the symlink broke
20:12:09 <Alberth> better than breaking the disk ;)
20:12:21 <drac_boy> ok found a second source and it works, oh well. thanks. now I got the pcx files I was looking for for reference
20:12:49 <Nat_aS> found it, but I just realized I forgot how to make extensions changable in windows 7
20:13:35 <Alberth> drac_boy: you wanted just the sprites or also the nfo code in a readable form? in the latter case, I can recommend grf2html
20:14:13 <drac_boy> just the sprites ... I already saw enough examples on the wiki to give to the would-be helper to figure out what nfo is ;)
20:15:35 <Alberth> grf2html is quite nice actually for understanding the code, it generates a html page (duh) with links in it.
20:15:41 <Nat_aS> but I did get some newgrf errors
20:16:25 <drac_boy> alberth I think I spoke too fast..the one grf I need pcx from is still erroring at sprite 0
20:16:39 <Nat_aS> probably because it tried to load my default newgrfs on top of whatever they started with
20:16:44 <Nat_aS> also, ALL THE TRAINS ARE LOOPS
20:16:55 <Alberth> opntitle.dat should not have any newgrfs
20:17:05 <CornishPasty> Note to self, don't leave OTTD open while using Xcode and iOS simulator...
20:17:09 <CornishPasty> Laptop doesn't like it
20:17:34 <Alberth> Nat_aS: in general, it is indeed not much more than 1 pretty, moving picture :)
20:18:19 <drac_boy> anyone have any thought on where to find a decodeable trgt.grf? or the other one whatever
20:18:20 <Nat_aS> but for some reason there is a wood industry chain off screen
20:18:38 <drac_boy> nat_as probably to make one of the train show a full wood load? :)
20:18:48 <Alberth> CornishPasty: one has to do something while waiting for the simulator :p
20:19:41 <Alberth> Nat_aS: to the bottom and/or to the right ? then it is for display at larger screens
20:19:55 <CornishPasty> Alberth: simulator is nice and fast since iOS 5.1!
20:20:05 <Nat_aS> but my version might be a differnt map
20:20:09 <Alberth> otherwise, the author has been thinking about it to use it, but didn't in the end
20:21:00 <Alberth> CornishPasty: ok, no idea, I don't use Apple stuff, I hate their policies
20:23:09 <Nat_aS> what is the max monitor size a 64x64 splash screen map will look good at?
20:23:17 <Nat_aS> before the user can see the edge of the map?
20:24:02 <drac_boy> I probably could had told you if I wasn't busy figuring out where a pcx is :p
20:24:24 <goodger> Nat_aS: very roughly, 1920x1080
20:25:09 <Nat_aS> we should commission Purno to make the prettiest possible 64x64 maps with functional chains to use as splashscreens.
20:25:23 <goodger> I can juuuust about get a map of that size onto my monitor in windowed mode, but not fullscreen mode, without seeing any black
20:25:53 <Alberth> Nat_aS: we run a competition every year, he is free to enter :)
20:26:38 <Nat_aS> actualy I think even with black, a 64x64 map could look pretty as a splashscreen
20:26:42 <Alberth> but no NewGRFs, to add to the challenge :)
20:27:36 <Alberth> actually it has a technical reason, the game is loaded before newgrfs are
20:27:37 <drac_boy> not even opengfx.grf :P
20:28:08 <Nat_aS> why does the game not ship with opengfx?
20:28:26 <Nat_aS> couldn't you alter the game to make it accept that as the default?
20:28:57 <drac_boy> alberth can I ask you a stupid request?
20:28:57 <Nat_aS> it seems like a better choice than passively suggesting people pirate TTD.
20:29:06 <Alberth> because it is as big as 20+ game programs, and Internet bandwidth is not free
20:29:09 <Nat_aS> drac_boy: don't ask to ask just ask.
20:29:29 <TWerkhoven[l]> that and you dont need to re-download opengfx any time you update ottd
20:29:32 <Nat_aS> Alberth, then just distribute via bittorent.
20:29:32 * Alberth wonders whether drac_boy already asked a stupid request
20:30:21 <drac_boy> alberth well...considering you probably already have grfcodec I'm wondering if you can see if you still get a sprite 0 error when you decode either trgt.grf or trgtr.grf by default?
20:34:27 <drac_boy> hrm, any chance you could give me the pcx file you got?
20:34:50 <Alberth> drac_boy: looking for an overview of base set sprites?
20:34:57 * drac_boy wonders why two different trgtr.grf files seem to be broken...can't be grfcodec's fault as the other grfs worked
20:34:58 <Alberth> opengfx has a nice one afaik
20:35:26 <drac_boy> alberth yeah..plus the sprite numbers too...want to use it as a reference for certain replacements
20:35:55 <Alberth> de53650517fe661ceaa3138c6edb0eb8 md5 checksum
20:36:27 <Alberth> as for the sprite sheet, sorry, won't give copyrighted material
20:36:55 <drac_boy> alberth...whats wrong with providing a file when grfcodec was supposed to be able to give it but its stuck on sprite 0?
20:42:31 <Alberth> I know that many people don't believe copyright means anything, but to me it does
20:43:30 <drac_boy> alberth so I should rather get someone on the forum to do the whole actionA nfo for me instead then instead of being able to do that one myself
20:43:59 <Rubidium> trgt.grf isn't a NewGRF
20:44:12 <Rubidium> so any 'code' from it can't be used for NewGRFs
20:44:30 <drac_boy> I didn't want the nfo..just the pcx btw Rubidium
20:44:58 <Rubidium> then why are you talking about having someone else do the nfo?
20:45:10 <drac_boy> rubidium... read again "actionA nfo"
20:45:41 <Rubidium> why do you need the sprites then?
20:46:15 <drac_boy> rubidium because to start with the nfo would need to know the sprite-number from the pcx
20:47:26 <drac_boy> who? the ones writing the actions? :)
20:48:01 <drac_boy> hm that sounds silly... "writing the actions" lol
20:48:34 <Rubidium> as for TRG1 that holds, for TRGI that holds if you add 4793. For all others that does not hold
20:49:41 <Rubidium> specifically TRGC, TRGH and TRGT replace sprites of TRG1
20:50:40 <Rubidium> all "documented" in landscape_sprite.h
20:57:07 <drac_boy> guess I'll go with the forum request then. trg1r seem to be more broken than trgtr.grf
20:57:14 <drac_boy> oh well still got other things to do anyhow
20:57:33 <Rubidium> just use the in-game sprite picker if you need to know the actual sprite number
20:58:37 <Rubidium> but keep in mind that anything after 4895 can't be replaced by action A
20:59:28 <drac_boy> well the picker would work...if it didn't require a monitor switch so never mind that. I'll just do other things for now like I said ^_^
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21:36:23 <drac_boy> hi planets creator :)
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21:42:34 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus there is one lighter topic tho. I was just looking out of curiousity but what does \94 and \80 like..well...corespond to in the textids?
21:44:09 <planetmaker> drac_boy: work with png instead of pcx...
21:44:17 <planetmaker> makes things easier to handle
21:46:53 <drac_boy> hm I'll think about that thanks
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21:47:55 * Rhamphoryncus boggles that people still use pcx
21:47:56 * drac_boy at least knows to not dump any of the project files to jpeg
21:49:02 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus well pcx still sometimes has its place in certain editor on other platforms but yeah I wouldn't complain about whether to or not to use it as thats not my own opinion ;)
21:49:25 <Rhamphoryncus> if an editor doesn't support png I'd say stop using dos ;)
21:51:57 <drac_boy> btw for dos you always could pick something like grafx2 which works nicely for just about any basic graphics (which includes pixelarts which is what this game is based on as well!)
21:52:13 <drac_boy> it'll happily load pcx and save png afaik
21:54:34 * Rhamphoryncus tries to remember the old dos paint program he used to use.. then decides he has better things to do ;)
21:55:46 <drac_boy> 17.6KB file spread across ten sheets. fun :-s
21:57:38 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm trying to decide what the target speed should be for pax at different distances. ie buses at around 50 tiles, trains up to several hundred, then transition to aircraft
21:58:16 <drac_boy> hmm have fun with that, not sure I can help much sorry :)
21:59:24 <drac_boy> and which of I'm going for a while, eating out for supper etc
21:59:38 <Rhamphoryncus> The tricky part is my formula maxes out at twice the target, so if I made the long-distance target be 500 km/h then a concorde would never earn more
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