IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-03
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00:03:59 <Rhamphoryncus> what order of operations does nml use? In particular will a+b/c do the divide first?
00:58:16 <DDR> Rhamphoryncus: probably the standard order, brackets-exponents-division-multiplication-addition-subtraction.
00:58:32 <Rhamphoryncus> *nod* I'm working on that assumption
00:58:58 <DDR> I've got no direct experience, myself, unfortunately.
01:01:13 <Rhamphoryncus> Not so much smart as desperate. Took 5 hours to get the cargo payment callback working. :/
01:03:10 <drac_boy> poor you Rhamphoryncus
01:18:15 <drac_boy> any better luck yet Rhamphoryncus? :)
01:19:14 <Rhamphoryncus> On which? Finding documentation on expressions? I gave up. Getting the cargo payment callback working? I did, after those 5 hours
01:20:41 <drac_boy> ic...doesn't sound like much new progress :-/
01:27:54 <Rhamphoryncus> ... I can't do it. The pricing API is broken.
01:28:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Only 49 useful values, which has to be scaled across a maximum distance of 4096
01:31:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Ugh, my brain must be fried :P
01:32:53 <drac_boy> I'm going to bed in about a hour here as well. did manage to work some more on my sheet for now tho
01:33:29 <drac_boy> got up to like 4Bh for town buildings tho..will have see what else I could think of tomorrow heh
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06:38:05 <Pikka> good morrow andythenorth
06:39:13 <Pikka> time for some automatic barrier crossings I think
06:41:02 <Pikka> half barriers have white stop lines, full barriers have yellow box pattern?
06:41:05 <andythenorth> it is 07.41 after all
06:41:11 <andythenorth> the sun is probably near the yard arm
06:42:56 * andythenorth will be off to toil
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07:40:23 <Ammler> peter1138: lol, opengfx fixes something and you say, it is broken :-D
07:41:19 <Ammler> basically you mean, opengfx should also "clone" the errors from ttd
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08:23:52 <peter1138> Ammler, what error?
08:24:06 <peter1138> Ammler, you think that the sprites being wrong in the purchase list is a fix?
09:02:02 <appe_> as i recall, some of you guys use excel on a daily basis?
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09:43:04 <Ammler> the wrong sprite is from the newgrf
09:46:07 <krinn> hi, what is the time limit for saving with an AI, i reach it fast ?
09:58:24 <Ammler> peter1138: anyway made a ticket :-)
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10:18:37 <peter1138> btw, i don't believe the ttd sprites are wrong. we're looking from up in the sky, not level with them.
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10:57:58 <zxbiohazardzx> im looking for the old custom airport designer thingy, but i cant find it on the forums :(
10:58:23 <zxbiohazardzx> problem is i dont know the exact name of it anymore, but it was wire-frame to test/create custom airport layouts
10:58:33 <zxbiohazardzx> not useable ingame, but worked good enough for mockups etc
11:00:59 <drac_boy> hmm souns interesting but seeing I'm more of a patch player I'm not much help sorry :-)
11:01:29 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah im just hunting forums for it atm, but its not easy to find if you dont know exactly where/what to look :P
11:01:32 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx I always wondered whatever happened to the seaport option, seaplanes landing on coastline water instead :)
11:01:42 <zxbiohazardzx> seaport is in newgrf forum
11:01:45 <zxbiohazardzx> ive seen it and it works
11:02:03 <zxbiohazardzx> its just a normal airport that can be used in combination with watertile objects around it
11:02:13 <zxbiohazardzx> page 3 of the grf-development topic has it i think
11:03:17 <drac_boy> so do you create anything or just more or less like to play around with things? just curious
11:03:38 <zxbiohazardzx> nah i want to use it for the dock suggestion
11:03:49 <zxbiohazardzx> i added the suggestion to handle docks more like airports
11:04:02 <zxbiohazardzx> and wanted to add an image of my suggestion using airport tiles i can color blue :P
11:04:26 <drac_boy> heh well I don't know..ships and planes don't really mix unless they're both smaller :)
11:04:47 <zxbiohazardzx> well i suggested to change teh dock handling
11:04:51 <Pikka> zxbiohazardzx: it's well and truly planned to use the statemachine handling for ship ports too
11:04:59 <zxbiohazardzx> atm you have 1 dock tile and that can hold about 100 ships
11:05:01 <Pikka> that's why some of us refer to the project as new(air)ports :)
11:05:15 <Pikka> but it has to be got working for airports first before we can expand it
11:05:22 <zxbiohazardzx> where i suggest to make it similar to airports with a bay 1 boat can dock onto, and then the rest can jst be on holding pattern similar to airports
11:05:30 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx in real life a single dock that size would be only 2 larger ships or up to 4-6 small ones :p
11:05:37 <zxbiohazardzx> Pikka statemachine handling will take a while
11:05:42 <drac_boy> such is the game reality
11:05:57 <zxbiohazardzx> im not sure how "hard" it is to modify the dock handling to a more airport like style
11:06:15 <zxbiohazardzx> aka have a "landing/starting" strip for boats to enter/leave the harbor
11:06:37 <zxbiohazardzx> and then handle it exactly like airport with dock/bays to load/unload and a serviceplace
11:06:51 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx one of the problem with modifying it is how to decide how to hold "excessive" ships out in the water considering you'll have to scan the tiles around the dock to determine where water rather than land is etc
11:07:03 <zxbiohazardzx> similar to the airplane holding pattern
11:07:09 <zxbiohazardzx> they just circle around?
11:07:28 <zxbiohazardzx> maybe just stop them still?
11:07:28 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx circling would cause more load due to needing to pathfind water tiles...so its a similar or worser effect
11:07:32 <zxbiohazardzx> planes cant stop
11:07:39 <zxbiohazardzx> so just stop them in the water if full?
11:07:45 <zxbiohazardzx> instead of cicling, they anker
11:07:59 <zxbiohazardzx> set speed to 0 :P not full stop ofc
11:08:28 <drac_boy> would you allow non-stopped ships to go through stopped ships as if they didn't exist? because otherwise in a narrow canal it could cause a blockup just as much as a stopped truck causes a road jam
11:09:28 <zxbiohazardzx> yes as we currently also allow ships to go through eachother
11:10:12 <zxbiohazardzx> nothing changes there, just the dock gets altered from a 2-tile wtf solution into a more natural harbor behaviour like airports have
11:10:34 <drac_boy> as long as theres an advanced option to pick between the two behaviours :)
11:10:45 <zxbiohazardzx> similar to the seaplane port only then with ships instead of planes, and ships stopping instead of circling
11:11:00 <zxbiohazardzx> atm we dont block a canal if you stop a boat.....
11:11:10 <zxbiohazardzx> so why would we have to add that adll of a sudden?
11:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: you meant the airport minigame?
11:12:11 <drac_boy> well its because to make a boat not go to the dock..you'll have to 'reserve' its water tile for it to know to stop there...then second boat wait behind it.. and now to tell the same pathfinder that the third ship doesn't want to stop at that dock so it can go through the reserved tiles freely
11:12:16 <drac_boy> know what I'm thinking of now?
11:14:35 <zxbiohazardzx> Yes Eddi|zuHause i did
11:15:13 <zxbiohazardzx> hoping the JAR will run :P
11:15:40 <zxbiohazardzx> and ofc it does :) thx Eddi
11:22:49 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx maybe the option could be named 'ships don't overlap at dock: yes/no' or something generic enough to make sense?
11:23:06 <drac_boy> former would mean your new behaviour while latter is the same old
11:23:19 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy yeah but i think a more airport-like approach to docks would be nice/better?
11:23:52 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx not for everyone tho. especially if someone wanted to use multiply small boats on purpose rather than trying to save up for one huge single boat
11:26:42 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx and then the second reason to keep an option for normal behaviour is also because docks sometimes can be used for multiply cargos just like rail stations are
11:27:06 <drac_boy> so for a grain ship to be held up just because the goods ship doesn't have a full load yet .. and thats a bad catch-22
11:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that only means some advanced management functions are needed
11:28:26 <drac_boy> well easiest option still would be to offer both behaviours and let the user pick it for their singleplayer maps
11:32:04 <drac_boy> actually, I sometimes play with the option to have default stationcargo (forgot what its called anymore) behaviour where it doesn't not show anything till at least one train has stopped there
11:32:08 <zxbiohazardzx> for me drac_boy a dock should behave EXACTLY as airports do
11:32:18 <drac_boy> so it goes to show why an enable/disable behaviour is a necessarity even for simple things
11:32:19 <zxbiohazardzx> maybe with more bays, but handling should be the same
11:32:29 <zxbiohazardzx> 1 slot per boat entry/exitlane
11:33:28 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx and as usual - how do you propsal a city dock with no room to expand should be able to hand 10+ small ferry ships without forcing the user to have to try find cash for one useless big ferry boat?
11:34:33 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy a city dock is not designed to hold 100 ships?
11:34:48 <zxbiohazardzx> so they could be smaller, airports come in multiple sizes/variations as well
11:34:56 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx well thats the problem..what would be one tile big in the game could be actually 2km big in reallife
11:35:02 <zxbiohazardzx> and pax loadtimes are way faster then cargo ones?
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11:35:20 <drac_boy> so again..if you're going to introduce something that limits ships then at least introduce some way to split up tiles :)
11:35:25 <zxbiohazardzx> so a citydock can be done with eg 2 tiles, for loadtimes are faster
11:35:47 <zxbiohazardzx> splitting tiles isnt possible afaik due to limitations in the map-array
11:35:58 <drac_boy> see? thats why certain things aren't always going to work
11:36:19 <zxbiohazardzx> current 2-tile long dock simply isnt nice gameplaywise either
11:36:31 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx maybe not but its limited by the map array so
11:36:38 <zxbiohazardzx> boats overlapping in canals is already a pain for myself (i always split tehm with buoys)
11:36:51 <zxbiohazardzx> but harbor behaviour is just weird
11:36:55 <zxbiohazardzx> all stations can be expanded
11:37:05 <zxbiohazardzx> but you can only have 1 harbor / station
11:37:48 <peter1138> multistop docks hasn't been coded
11:37:54 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx can you have two airports per station? theres your answer
11:37:58 <peter1138> someone™ just needs to do it
11:38:39 <zxbiohazardzx> @peter1138 see suggestions forum, i (again?) suggested to handle docks more like airports
11:38:48 <zxbiohazardzx> i think its more realistic and a better gameplay as well
11:39:15 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy no but you can increase airport size to scale with capacity needed
11:39:18 <peter1138> it's not a new suggestion, reading it on the forum isn't going to help
11:39:25 <zxbiohazardzx> docks dont limit capacity at all
11:39:33 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx how do you "increase" a small airport silly :)
11:39:56 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy by upgrading it (huzzay patch)
11:40:02 <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah remove+readd bigger one
11:40:10 <zxbiohazardzx> my point is that for airports you have different sizes
11:40:10 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx that might help if there was anything bigger...which isn't so
11:40:14 <zxbiohazardzx> for docks you have 1 dock
11:40:29 <zxbiohazardzx> that has unlimited ammount of ships overlapping/docking into it
11:40:52 <zxbiohazardzx> hence i think the airport approach would be much better, as then you at least have the option to expand it as demand/supply increase
11:41:09 <zxbiohazardzx> and its capacity is then again defined by the ammount of bays
11:41:23 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx you forgot one other thing again.. big and small ship are not the same
11:41:27 <zxbiohazardzx> aka old dock could be maintained, but it can only hold 1 or 2 (not sure yet) ships max
11:41:39 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy neither are big and small aircrafts
11:41:52 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx planes doesn't matter because its still same terminal
11:41:59 <zxbiohazardzx> no wrong drac_boy
11:42:08 <drac_boy> but for a ship it does matter.. where one big ship would dock the same spot could hold three of the smaller ones
11:42:09 <zxbiohazardzx> try landing the 747 on a small airport with crashes enabled
11:42:17 <zxbiohazardzx> it will go boom before you even see it land
11:42:19 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx I'm not talking about the runaway
11:42:35 <zxbiohazardzx> terminal can only be reached via runway
11:42:47 <zxbiohazardzx> and if you want you can code the terminal not to accept shiptype "big" or small?
11:43:07 <zxbiohazardzx> if type != acceptedtype then error pathfinder or whatever
11:43:21 <drac_boy> thats not the point.. the point is one terminal tile can hold any one plane .... thats ok .. but a dock is different ... if you theriocally made it 1km=1tile then that means one dock tile could hold one big ship or three small ships at either time
11:43:27 <zxbiohazardzx> not a correct docktype or similar when trying to set the order
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11:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: yes. same as heliport won't accept airplanes
11:44:09 <zxbiohazardzx> it makes so much more sense to handle boats as if they where aircraft for the loading/unloading
11:44:12 <zxbiohazardzx> both gameplay and realism
11:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> we already accepted the suggestion long ago.
11:44:35 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy isnt seeing my point :)
11:44:43 <zxbiohazardzx> didnt know that Eddi :P
11:44:49 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx you don't even understand ships thats why
11:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> just nobody coded it
11:45:00 <zxbiohazardzx> i can read code, not your accepted list/ideas
11:45:10 <zxbiohazardzx> @Drac_boy i think i do, im using them ALOT in my games
11:45:18 <zxbiohazardzx> FISH && newships etc
11:45:32 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx if a small ship is supposed to take up the same space at the dock as a big ship then why is the small ship not holding 500 tonnes of coal as well then?
11:45:43 <drac_boy> thats the point of needing to make more space for smaller ships than big ones at your dock
11:46:25 <zxbiohazardzx> @drac_boy smae question for the small aircraft
11:46:39 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx nope it doesn't
11:46:45 <zxbiohazardzx> it Also takes up same space at the airport as a big aircraft
11:46:57 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx thats only because airports are actually limited by that passenger connecting tubes
11:46:58 <zxbiohazardzx> your dock cranes cant do 2 small ships in the space of 1 large
11:47:01 <drac_boy> ships don't have such limit at all
11:47:11 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy your ships are limited by the dock facilies
11:47:21 <zxbiohazardzx> small ships still have advantages in running costs or other methods
11:47:22 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx wrong...theres a lot of real ships that can load/unload on their own
11:47:26 <zxbiohazardzx> example see FISH
11:47:48 <drac_boy> ever seen container ships with their own cranes docked at a flat dock that doesn't even have any kind of cranes or even forklifters at all? :)
11:47:49 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy im a civil engineer i can tell you that docks in real life have similar limitations as airports
11:47:52 <zxbiohazardzx> you have X docking locations
11:47:57 <zxbiohazardzx> if you have 2 huge ships
11:48:07 <zxbiohazardzx> then you might be able to do 3 smalls in that same space
11:48:10 <zxbiohazardzx> but 4 wont even fit
11:48:23 <zxbiohazardzx> so gameplaywise you can just use 1 space per ship, regardless of size
11:48:46 <zxbiohazardzx> if you insist on making small/big usefull then define special types (small docks) (big docks) similar to airports
11:48:56 <zxbiohazardzx> helicopters wont land on airport strips
11:49:25 <drac_boy> well as long as 'big dock' takes up two 'small dock' spots then that might be an amendable compromise
11:49:42 <zxbiohazardzx> well bigdock will still need 1 tile per bay
11:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: one idea could be to have the "normal" dock load on all 3 sides
11:50:00 <zxbiohazardzx> where big-docks can only load on 2 sides
11:50:11 <zxbiohazardzx> that should fix the scaling a bit
11:50:31 <zxbiohazardzx> normal dock (current) has 3 adjecent tiles, where big dock would only allow/have 2
11:50:49 <zxbiohazardzx> still needs bit of tweaking but in general i honestly think this would improve ship gameplay
11:51:48 <zxbiohazardzx> any work done at all on this btw Eddi, or just brainstorm and thats it?
11:53:35 <drac_boy> at least this hopefully is just for ottd ^_^
11:55:19 <drac_boy> still its nice that theres programmable signals in ottd finally..even although its in chrill's build
11:57:15 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah chrill has some nice extra's
11:57:19 <zxbiohazardzx> signals in tunnels/bridges
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11:57:23 <zxbiohazardzx> too bad its hacked in
11:57:30 <zxbiohazardzx> i just lack custom bridgeheads for ottd
11:57:36 <zxbiohazardzx> so i can finally make my cities more compact :P
11:57:46 <zxbiohazardzx> my trains always cut my cities into 2 parts
11:58:07 <zxbiohazardzx> and bridging over the tracks isnt that neat if you ahve to bend to them
11:58:46 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx you want know what I think is the most fun part about chrill's build? :)
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12:01:21 <drac_boy> being able to run multiply railroads just like the real thing did....so eg SBB takes a load of lumber and passengers then all the lumber and some passengers end up on a SNCF train instead ... finally near last leg a shortline operator takes some of the lumber onward to a different 'customer' (or shall we say sawmill)
12:01:34 <drac_boy> got to love infrashare+cargodest lumped together :)
12:02:20 <Chris_Booth[ph]> No you have drac_boy
12:02:29 <zxbiohazardzx> i played with romazoon on the cincinidi map
12:02:37 <Chris_Booth[ph]> Cargo dear is retarded
12:02:37 <zxbiohazardzx> it only lacked the CBH for me
12:02:41 <zxbiohazardzx> then it would have been insane
12:04:08 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx I don't know where jamie seem to be anymore but one of the game we were playing like 2 weeks ago roughly had quite a wild mash of passengers-sharing :)
12:04:48 <drac_boy> different methods too..I was running a few bullets but a lot of local emus .. jamie had many express trains and some metros ... and the third player was almost all metro with one maglev line
12:05:11 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah dunno i still want the last savegame of cincinidi, as i only have an older version
12:05:12 <drac_boy> some of the junction stations had 100+ different destinations in them. crazy
12:05:29 <zxbiohazardzx> haha i remember that much indeed
12:05:35 <zxbiohazardzx> dunno where he is now though :P
12:06:52 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx so anyway here's a good question for you...
12:07:10 <drac_boy> if you want to shove docks up into ports .. then can we at least ask for the same thing from road vehicles too? ;)
12:09:49 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy lolwut, road vehicles already have that?
12:10:01 <zxbiohazardzx> a road-bay (no drive through) can only hold 2 cars
12:10:06 <zxbiohazardzx> a drive through same
12:10:09 <zxbiohazardzx> but different orientation
12:10:18 <zxbiohazardzx> to expand your road station: add multiple bays :)
12:10:47 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx where's a 1x2 road terminal that could let goods rigs back their load into on a deadend road? :P
12:12:09 <zxbiohazardzx> @drac_boy ask the newgrfdudes for that...
12:12:31 <zxbiohazardzx> the roadstop code allows you to have a terminus and through option in various ways i think
12:12:38 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx to be honest a majority of the freight trucks unload through the rear at the end of the road/driveway .. not onto the sidewalk in the middle of the street. thats why the thru stations just don't seem so good
12:13:00 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy i agree, so then you can use the terminus ones
12:13:27 <drac_boy> yeah the problem with the current 1x1 terminus is that articulated's can't go into there even although technically they should be able to after all
12:13:29 <zxbiohazardzx> the side-way ones can be used though but you have to add some eyecandy tiles where both sides of the roads have industrial type stuff
12:13:40 <zxbiohazardzx> i can do that with ISR, DWE and road tiles already so
12:16:24 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx I mentioned this once before but can't remember if it was in jamie's game or here but anyhow here's one thing that I have thought a lot about...
12:16:51 <drac_boy> why can't we have the option in ottd to pick three different type of tram tiles?
12:17:04 <zxbiohazardzx> because roadtypes arent implemented yet
12:17:07 <drac_boy> 1. rail+overheadwire as usual 2. rails only 3. overhead wires only
12:17:19 <zxbiohazardzx> they are busy with it afaik, but its not implemented in any form
12:17:36 <drac_boy> you want know why I had thought of the 3 options like that?
12:17:46 <zxbiohazardzx> it would require road-types, so you can define multiple types of roads (1-way normal) and multiple type of tramways (liek you said)
12:18:11 <zxbiohazardzx> normal, dieseltram, trollybus? :P
12:18:35 <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah road-types are WIP if im not mistaken
12:18:54 <zxbiohazardzx> anyway im afk/out, poke me later :)
12:19:03 <zxbiohazardzx> if you sie jamie, then poke him hard :)
12:19:22 <drac_boy> heh .. well ... electric trolley/tram ... fuel freight trams don't need overhead (steam trams especially) ... trolleybuses don't need rails ...
12:19:30 <drac_boy> thats the three majority differences :)
12:19:46 <drac_boy> bye anyway zxbiohazardzx
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12:49:37 <drac_boy> if you don't mind, I'm wondering if you're working on any grfs these days or not so much?
12:58:27 <drac_boy> mm you have some interesting works anyhow :)
12:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka is the new MB! :)
12:59:20 <drac_boy> eddi I'm not too sure about that but then whatever :P
12:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: working on a dozen grfs, never releasing anything :)
13:00:18 <Pikka> last I looked I've released two fairly major grf updates in the last week, including 1.0 of UKRS2. :)
13:02:46 <drac_boy> hm anyway I should go for a bit :-s
13:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no dirty talk before 22:00
13:08:19 <Pikka> ufo hiding in a depot :)
13:09:47 <Pikka> the AI trucks all have "service at this depot" as their only order, so they don't come out of the depot. The truck isn't /stopped/ in the depot, so the UFO will still track it, but it can't destroy it because it's not on the map. so the UFO flies down and circles in the depot.
13:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "Pirates up to 12%. Minister of interior Herrmann (CDU [conservatives]) calls them 'anarchistic'"
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14:06:31 <Pikka> why does nforenum think variable 06 doesn't exist?
14:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you didn't update, have custom data files, or you're reading the output wrong?
14:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or wrong feature
14:08:50 <Pikka> I don't think any of those are the case. it's for railtypes so I guess it's a data file problem. either mine or general. :)
14:10:27 <Pikka> can't be "didn't update" because var 06 has existed forever, can't be wrong feature because it's a general variable, don't know what "reading the output wrong" means. so it can only be data files.
14:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what does var 06 do? can't find it in the specs
14:14:58 <Pikka> It was more of a rhetorical question, anyway. the grf works, it's just renum doing something unexpected. which isn't entirely unexpected. :)
14:16:52 <Pikka> and to answer my other pondering, info version 32 swaps ysize and xsize :)
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14:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> why won't the forum allow me to open or download this attachment?!?
14:33:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it just "hangs" after chosing a download location
14:52:41 <Rubidium> Pikka: got some nfo that reproduces the issue you got with nforenum?
14:53:21 <Pikka> !!Warning (86): Offset 4: Testing nonexistant variable 06.
14:53:22 <Pikka> 184 * 14 02 10 c1 81 06 04 01 01 b2 00 01 01 b1 00 // road traffic side
14:54:02 <Pikka> it's not an "issue", it's just wrong :)
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14:58:04 <Rubidium> yup, interestingly more of the global variables are missing. Not sure whether that's by design or not
15:00:04 <Pikka> andy, do you have any train-depot-like-objects about your person? or any suitable large sheds, perhaps? :)
15:01:52 <andythenorth> my person is large and has many pockets
15:02:42 <andythenorth> metal workshop for example?
15:03:20 <Pikka> also machine shop and fertiliser plant have promising bits
15:04:00 <Pikka> perhaps recycling plant too... a cavalcade of depots
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15:05:26 <andythenorth> generally pngs are here
15:05:55 <andythenorth> 'raw' gets you the file
15:07:19 <Pikka> I shall make many depots
15:07:26 <andythenorth> this is for the track set?
15:07:36 <Pikka> it's all done apart from the depots
15:07:39 <Pikka> which shall be optional
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15:20:19 <FlyingFoX> hi, what are some good AIs to use?
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15:24:38 <Pikka> I find AdmiralAI works okay.
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15:28:03 <FlyingFoX> i am currently using admiral ai, pathzilla, and dictator ai, but they keep crashing
15:29:20 <Pikka> admiral ai hasn't crashed on me lately, that's why I mentioned it
15:29:37 <Pikka> make sure everything is up to date. at least then it's not your fault when it crashes. :)
15:31:45 <FlyingFoX> yeah i think its only dictator and pathzilla that crash
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15:38:00 <FlyingFoX> are there some kind of challenges? like make the world population greater than 100.000 in 50 years or something like that? i want something reasonably hard as it is no challenge to get incredibly wealthy even on hard settings and against 7 AIs
15:40:43 <Pikka> there are gamescripts. or you can just make up your own challenge.
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15:43:22 <FlyingFoX> my current challenge is to make the population grow as fast as possible on a random subarctic map with hard settings, but that would get a lot more interesting if there was something to compare mysellf to.
15:44:39 <FlyingFoX> those gamescripts only exist in the latest beta, right?
15:45:51 <Pikka> in the 1.2.0 RCs or nightlies, yes
15:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i have an alpine map, but all towns are below snow line
15:47:24 <Pikka> I noticed that your ships only dieselsmoke when starting off, like a train :[
15:48:31 <Prof_Frink> newparticles? higgsbosons!
15:51:52 <andythenorth> Pikka: this would be because you haven't patched newgrf smoke yet :P
15:52:17 <Pikka> think of the possibilities!
15:52:45 <Pikka> including the possibilities that will never be included in openttd, like shooty stuff!
15:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> railroad tycoon had military supplies or something
15:53:40 <andythenorth> fixing smoke would be a starting point
15:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember a war...
15:54:01 <andythenorth> I don't need newgrf smoke effect vehicles
15:54:21 <andythenorth> just give me the ability to specify x, y, z offsets, and a smoke animation cb
15:54:53 <andythenorth> passing the co-ords and ids of up t n smoke effect vehicles
15:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can't change the "animation" of smoke
15:55:09 <andythenorth> bad explanation by me
15:55:19 <andythenorth> I just need to specify 'draw an effect vehicle in this tick'
15:55:24 <Pikka> you mean particle emission by vehicle callback
15:55:35 <andythenorth> I mean just 'add new effect vehicle at x,y,z'
15:56:01 <Pikka> to emit a particle / create a particle vehicle
15:56:18 <Pikka> but if you're going to do that, why not go the whole hog and newparticles?
15:56:51 <andythenorth> because it never gets done?
15:56:59 <Pikka> well neither does this :)
15:57:02 <andythenorth> unlike my current suggestion :P
15:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like push the coords into the registers, and then return the number of vehicles to spawn?
15:57:32 <andythenorth> or the higher bits of cb10 result
15:59:10 <andythenorth> I tested using the z index, it kind of worked
15:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or call the callback multiple times, var10 being the number of times it has already run. return coords, or "no further vehicle"
15:59:30 <andythenorth> care to comment on the FS?
15:59:48 <andythenorth> as apparently this is only blocked by (a) lack of final spec and (b) lack of anyone who cares
15:59:56 <andythenorth> but (b) is default and not significant
16:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> my wallclock is tilted, it freaks me out...
16:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't be bothered to go to it and move it
16:10:30 <zydeco> it surely doesn't freak you out enough then
16:10:34 <andythenorth> throw something, try and get lucky
16:11:42 <zydeco> I always wanted to fill my hovercrafts with eels
16:11:48 <zydeco> so I finally made a newgrf for it
16:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> have nothing to throw that is less valuable than the clock
16:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i never got that joke...
16:12:36 <zydeco> it's from monty python
16:12:55 <Pikka> there's nothing to get, it's just a nonsequitur
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16:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and i thought it's because i'm german :p
16:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> how much german does the average english tv viewer know?
16:14:31 <supermop> english or american?
16:14:43 <supermop> I'd say little in either case
16:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant english. as in from england
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16:15:07 <zydeco> a person from england who views tv, or a person who views english tv?
16:15:08 <supermop> englishmen do seem more likely to have taken german in school though
16:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> because i saw a comedy show recently. and they made a sketch in french, with subtitles
16:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and then a sketch in german, without subtitles
16:15:34 <supermop> maybe the german itself was the joke?
16:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> zydeco: i answered that already
16:17:34 * NGC3982 invites #openttd to a fika.
16:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the joke, as far as i understood, was Boris Becker making sexual avances towards Steffi Graf
16:20:48 <supermop> hmm maybe a bit esoteric for english people? i don't know
16:21:26 <supermop> i guess if it was very vaudevillian one could get the idea without knowing the language
16:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which actually raises the second question: how well do english people know these two persons?
16:24:24 <zydeco> I don't know, I'm only 1/4 english
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16:46:26 <frosch123> tennis is a british sport, isn't it?
16:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> as british as football :)
16:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's quite a while ago since both were "active"
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17:08:06 <Pikka> www.pruplethingz.com/junk/Image20.png
17:16:03 <Pikka> 20th century steam depot, say 1900-1960? :)
17:16:43 <andythenorth> not sooty enough :P
17:16:48 <andythenorth> sounds fine though
17:17:05 <andythenorth> you're doing date-sensitive depot graphics?
17:17:05 <Pikka> well, nothing's very sooty in TTD, otherwise it would be. I just put a bit in at the top of the doorway. :)
17:17:29 <Pikka> by year built I'm thinking, and by railtype.
17:17:53 <andythenorth> is 'choose depot style' even a desirable new feature?
17:18:21 <Pikka> I know some people want to unify depots and stations, which sounds like a nightmare. :)
17:18:40 <andythenorth> can refit at both now :P
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17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24088 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt malay.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 39 changes by Parastais
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: malay - 47 changes by kazlan68
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17:50:08 <oskari89> Choose level crossing style should be also ;)
17:51:14 <oskari89> If that would be implemented some time, i would have even more variation on that :)
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17:59:53 <andythenorth> Pikka: so 2px narrower for BANDIT trucks?
18:00:16 <Pikka> ahh, possibly. although american-style trucks are rather bigger than uk-style, no?
18:01:28 <Pikka> I drew two 1920s buses so far, do you want the spritesheet to compare?
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18:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you want with a zip-code?
18:05:22 <Pikka> I haven't actually coded these yet so I don't know how they'll look in game
18:05:55 <Pikka> all-cc is probably not a go, they'll need white or other contrasting bits like the one sprite in there to emphasise the shapes.
18:06:03 <andythenorth> maybe not too smallz
18:06:45 <Pikka> bear in mind that they are 1920s buses, so they're small even by RV standards
18:09:55 <andythenorth> 'at last, the product you've been waiting for: giant mining trucks'
18:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that's a fair comparison :)
18:10:18 <Pikka> the dump truck looks too small compared to the buses, if anything
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18:11:21 <andythenorth> it's a small dump truck ;)
18:11:25 <andythenorth> big ones are 350t
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19:11:39 <drac_boy> hi alberth how're you?
19:12:12 <Alberth> having a bad cold :( (not sure it is the right word)
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19:13:25 <Alberth> last night I didn't sleep very well, so I have a dull headache all day
19:13:45 <Alberth> hopefully tonight will be better
19:19:00 <drac_boy> well I had a bit of long nap a while ago, but doing ok..just on irc for a bit now and still trying to figure out the road vehicle id mess yet :-s
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19:46:11 <zydeco> fun times, the newgrf is 2 kb and the license is 22 kb
19:52:30 <drac_boy> zydeco must be a generic almost-all-caps legalse license copied from somewhere else? :)
19:52:39 <frosch123> what's the size of your writ when enforcing that licence?
19:53:00 <drac_boy> funny thing is almost everything I download these days I always throw out any text file that does not say 'guide' or 'readme' in their name
19:55:27 <drac_boy> this probably has saved me likely at least three thousand less text files cluttering up the indexer.. lost count a long time ago so I'm not sure what the actual numbers would had been anymore
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20:04:48 <Sahri> I have a little problem with the tropical map theme. No matter what terrain height I choose, I see no saw mills anywhere on the map
20:05:01 <Rubidium> Pikka: variable 6 'support' has been added to grfcodec; might need to wait almost 24h before the new nightly is created though
20:05:01 <Pikka> there are no sawmills in tropical
20:05:16 <Pikka> there are lumber mills but you have to build them yourself, Sahri
20:05:18 <Rubidium> Sahri: you need to build the lumber mills manually
20:05:38 <Sahri> But thanks for clearing that up
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20:05:59 <drac_boy> I always liked the lumbermill behaviour better than the crappy forests in temperate :)
20:06:15 <drac_boy> have to keep trees around or if you get too lazy and don't notice that....no more wood for you
20:06:33 <drac_boy> just like with real forests after all
20:06:57 <drac_boy> I'm sure others might have their own opinions on that tho
20:08:55 <Sahri> But aren't lumber mills dependant on forests as well?
20:09:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24089 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_func.h): -Fix [FS#5136]: Conflicting strategies for resizing the main toolbar and statusbar after resizing the main window.
20:09:45 <Rhamphoryncus> lumber mills use actual trees. A forest is just another industry (like a mine) that happens to look like a tree
20:10:36 <drac_boy> just wondering since theres a few of us here now...is there any point in using GRM for your grf or its always been a moot point even from day one?
20:10:51 <Sahri> So you have to plant trees around the lumber mills or else...
20:11:20 <drac_boy> sahri it'll eventually drop down to zero production, thats what
20:11:27 <Pikka> if you're using OpenTTD it's irrelevant for vehicles, drac_boy. If you're using TTDPatch it's essential.
20:11:41 <drac_boy> pikka ah so its half...hm, thanks
20:12:41 <Sahri> Ah so you can't prevent that from happening?
20:13:06 <drac_boy> sahri if you don't want zero production, do what the real world does...plant new trees once in a while :P
20:13:20 <drac_boy> its not like coal where it doesn't need to be replenished
20:13:47 <drac_boy> although its possible to make a newinustry grf where mines have a limited stockpile to work with before it goes to zero and they close up for good
20:14:06 <Sahri> I saw that one in the downlosd list
20:14:20 <drac_boy> inustry? I mean industry
20:14:56 <Alberth> drac_boy: it should be possible, I think
20:16:00 <Sahri> That would make the game even harder for me but more realistic
20:16:43 <Alberth> realism is not a design criterium for the game :p
20:16:56 <drac_boy> I did wonder about one other thing but I don't think I've seen anything in the wiki for it (unless I overlooked it somehow) ... can an industry vary its production depending on the date of the year?
20:19:14 <drac_boy> hm I'll have to recheck the wiki then
20:22:17 <drac_boy> know that some players might not like it but I've always sometimes though about farms and so having a seasonal output. after all you can't hack anything out of the frozen ground during the winter months heh
20:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: might want to check out var 02, var 23 or var 24
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20:24:10 <drac_boy> oh didn't see 23 before. that explains it. thanks
20:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "long format" means "days since year 0"
20:28:50 <Alberth> drac_boy: farms do not produce if they are above the snow line
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20:29:14 <drac_boy> alberth even in newindustry?
20:29:39 <Alberth> if programmed that way :p
20:30:01 <drac_boy> oh ok thats a relief...I wanted to let the farms go anywhere where they wanted to
20:30:15 <drac_boy> going to add variable snowlines anyhow ;)
20:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's rather difficult to get farms above thesnow line (e.g. with alpine grf) because on game creation it's always january, so the snowline is at the lowest point
20:32:12 <drac_boy> well I was also thinking about new farm building themself (or the player funded one) during the game but yeah you do have a point
20:32:49 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you're at the wrong hemisphere :p
20:33:09 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't bother with seasonal production, it's silly
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20:33:18 <andythenorth> unhelpful for gameplay
20:34:46 <drac_boy> well if you didn't like seasonal supplies then stick to something more 'dead' such as coal instead ;)
20:34:53 <drac_boy> just a random suggestion heh
20:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the "problem" is that the game doesn't offer management options for seasonal timetables
20:37:57 <drac_boy> I never cared too much for it then again my network style is quite different from most others so
20:40:16 <drac_boy> btw another thing re newgrf again if thats ok...
20:40:57 <drac_boy> do you have to stick with one sprite or is it possible to like have two different sprites for one single bridge? like say it was sprite A when one tile long but sprite B when three tiles long? same id otherwise
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20:44:49 <Sahri> I can't remember oil refineries were being built so close to the map's edge
20:45:39 <Rubidium> they were even closer in TTD
20:45:46 <TWerkhoven[l]> smaller maps maybe, so they didnt look so close?
20:45:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Is there any way to expose an nml value for debugging? I'm in FEAT_CARGOS so there's no persistent registers, not that I could access them anyway. Only idea I have is to modify the openttd source, or maybe a gdb hook
20:46:43 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: I've seen bridges with multiple sprites
20:47:14 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus hmm I'll think about trying it then thanks
20:48:12 <drac_boy> wasn't sure if that was for the sprites too or not...but thanks
20:49:08 <Sahri> Hmm, I think I should leave the oil derricks be till I have some faster engines at my disposal. The distance is just too big to make a profit
20:49:19 <drac_boy> sahri what grf you using now?
20:49:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Huh, so the repeated part is always 2 tiles long. Interesting
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20:51:00 <Sahri> Suburban stations, dutch station set, swedish town name generator, city stations and spanish town names
20:51:22 <Sahri> I admit, most of em are useless in this map but I'm too lazy to keep changing around GRFs
20:51:46 <drac_boy> so unless I'm looking at it wrong I could had done my bridges like this? _A_ , _AA_ , _BBB_ where A is first sprite and B is second one
20:51:53 <drac_boy> sahri so just original trains then?
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20:54:44 <Sahri> I have seen the GRF fr the tropical map but since I already started a game I don't want to start over... again
20:54:46 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i thought either _A_ _BB_ _BBB_ or _A_ _AA_ _ABA_
20:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf bridges are one of those seriously neglected parts
20:59:25 <drac_boy> sahri heh well there is one thing I don't exactly like too much.. the MJS diesel in opengfx is not the same thing as the original MJS diesel :-/
20:59:31 <drac_boy> its no longer a small cheap locomotive
21:00:03 <drac_boy> eddi mm I'll have to think some more about this. and yeah you're right its a bit neglected
21:00:31 <Sahri> The cargo acceptance for oil just baffled me
21:01:06 <drac_boy> sahri you mean the refinery? it only accepts oil on like 1-2 tiles which I always did find a little strange sometimes
21:01:09 <Sahri> I have to build a train/lorry station at the long side of the oil refinery or it won't accept anything, even if it is in the catchment area
21:02:20 <Sahri> Yeah it's illogical and it sounds like a bug that needs to be ironed out
21:02:42 <drac_boy> well its original behaviour .. if you didn't like it make a refineryfix.grf :)
21:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the power station also has that behaviour
21:06:42 <Sahri> It's not like the game becomes unplayable because of this so I'll just let it be
21:10:20 * drac_boy wonders if anyone has any explaination for why the MJS250 was changed big-time in opengfx
21:11:15 <Pikka> because having an un-shortened short vehicle looks ugly?
21:11:30 <Pikka> they only changed the appearance, opengfx is a base set and contains no stats changes
21:14:31 <drac_boy> hm well it looks weird hauling one or few wagons when a small locomotives look at home doing that. oh well
21:14:41 <drac_boy> at least I don't have to use opengfx in my own maps so I'm not complaining
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21:18:04 <drac_boy> eddi what made the steel mill accept passengers on one of its tile tho?
21:18:13 <drac_boy> I never could really figure out the reasoning behind that original plan
21:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what went through chris sawyer's head
21:20:39 <drac_boy> would you rate wool as a sensitive or insensitive cargo yourself?
21:21:52 <Rhamphoryncus> The steel mill... accepts passengers? Surely a bug
21:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it not only does accept passengers, it also makes steel out of them :p
21:23:02 <supermop> people have to work there
21:23:43 <drac_boy> supermop so do the people at the mines/etc but these don't accept passengers
21:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the legendary soylent green steel
21:24:52 <Pikka> I think you'll find it doesn't make steel out of them, eddi. it's just one of the tiles that accepts passengers.
21:25:13 <Pikka> tile acceptance and industry acceptance are completely separate.
21:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever actually tried it
21:29:48 <drac_boy> hmm wonder how many different ground tile types there are now
21:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> grass, tundra, snow, rainforest, desert, halfdesert, halfsnow, quartersnow, threequartersnow, coast, with grid, without grid, opengfx, original. ...
21:32:07 <drac_boy> I assume there's actually a list hopefully?
21:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
21:32:45 <drac_boy> ic hm guess I'll have to check a few randomized maps later to determine then
21:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need to know of the ground tile, you can tell openttd to draw the default groundtile, and you draw your house/industry/object on a transparent background
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21:34:29 <drac_boy> its not for that, its re replacing a few things especially the boulders-juttering tiles. thanks still
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21:38:06 <drac_boy> not sure if it'll be through actionA or to actually redraw everything to match. but its too early to decide on that just yet
21:50:13 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm lost. Tried tracking through both from gdb and from nml; no luck. Where are newgrf temporaries stored?
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21:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a newgrf temporary?
21:57:33 <drac_boy> hm going stop for now, need to go out for supper soon :)
21:58:20 <Rhamphoryncus> temporary register?
21:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you want to do with those?
21:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> your best bet is grepping through newgrf*.cpp for them
22:00:01 <Rhamphoryncus> Nothing in there is obvious
22:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> src/newgrf_spritegroup.h:static inline uint32 GetRegister(uint i) <-- ?
22:02:15 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. Missed the -i on that particular grep
22:03:43 <Sahri> How can I have only a handful of paggengers in a city with a population of 1k+?
22:04:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Ah, only in the .h. I had the .cpp open and searched it more thoroughly, which didn't find it
22:04:29 <Sahri> passengers** I think I need to go to sleep =_=
22:04:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Sahri: how much do your station tiles cover?
22:04:52 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus better whats the station rating? ;)
22:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: inline functions must always be in the .h, otherwise it can't be inlined
22:05:01 <Sahri> And you mean how many houses?
22:05:04 <Rhamphoryncus> I've been told that the big bounding box only applies to deliveries. Picking up is based on individual tiles' catchment
22:05:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi: yeah, I understand that
22:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Sahri: odd. usually people complain why there are 3000 passengers waiting at their bus station in a 1000 people town :p
22:09:00 <Sahri> And when I moved it the ratings went down to 50%
22:09:29 <drac_boy> well I'm going to eat :p
22:09:49 <Sahri> I'll have to keep a raincheck on that
22:10:20 <Sahri> I discarded the changes I made too because the result wasn't exactly satisfying
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22:59:24 <xiong> What kind of version is (1.2.0?)?
23:01:27 <xiong> Um, no, I don't think so.
23:02:31 <xiong> I see it's really RC4, as expected. The blogish post is just too cute, at least for me.
23:17:09 <xiong> Is there something about TerraGenesis that causes towns to clump? Or do I have anything like a fair chance of an even distribution across the map?
23:17:32 <xiong> I've gotten several maps with a clump of towns in one corner, none elsewhere.
23:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (why do i even bother reading the question?)
23:27:02 <xiong> From my (perhaps narrow) viewpoint, it's not entirely fair for me to play a map I've created deliberately. Part of the game is to contend with random factors. But I've started several maps over the last few years and they all seem a bit off. It's not just a few irregularities when all the towns are jammed into one corner.
23:29:17 <xiong> I'm just saying I wouldn't be content playing a level flat map with towns and industries placed each by hand. It would be too mechanical. But I need some control over map generation. I'm going to the Scenario Editor, creating random landforms, and placing towns and industries at random. I'll just scatter excess towns and remove excess.
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continue to next day ⏵
