IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-02
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01:58:26 <drac_boy> I'm assume that if action 0 prop 1E (and 0D?) was set its possible to have houses without any of the usual PASS/MAIL cargos at all for custom games?
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02:17:38 <drac_boy> hmm looks like might have to postpone that, silly wiki just went dead suddenly
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08:31:15 <Ammler> is it possible to get the reason why loading a language file does fail, how does openttd check and invalidate it?
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08:33:13 <Ammler> are you 100% sure, language files are noarch?
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08:38:55 <peter1138> what arch are you on?
08:39:20 <__ln__> peteris: stop annoying Peer
08:41:02 <peteris> __ln__, sorry, my router went berserk again, did a restet :(
08:45:39 <Ammler> peter1138: I never have this issue, just a user is complaining about it which I can't reproduce, so I wonder, how can I get him to provide more info
08:46:10 <peter1138> Ammler, if your user can't provide more info, most likely they're not going to be affected by arch issues
08:54:15 <peter1138> ah cos you split it off cos it's noarch
08:57:04 <Ammler> yeah, I wonder, if that could be an issue, but then I wonder why I am not able to reproduce it on my 64 and 32bit boxes
08:59:41 <peter1138> only if there's somehow a version mismatch
09:01:22 <Ammler> is it possible to read the version from the lang file or how does openttd know, it is mismatch?
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09:04:04 <Ammler> I splitted lang files to noarch packages since ever and never got issues with that
09:04:58 <Ammler> so I think it is something else, but the guy has an strange version anyway, maybe that resolves itself...
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10:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> err... today's xkcd is... buggy...
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11:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what i hate? that usb plugs are asymmetric
11:31:05 <drac_boy> eddi well the bottom two pins are not same as the upper two pins so you can't just simply want to flip the cable connector :p
11:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it _could_ be designed to allow that (i.e. make 8 pins, the upper 4 in reverse of the lower 4. that makes it agnostic to rotation)
11:35:52 <drac_boy> that would result in a wide thin connector which isn't what I think you want to use..it'll probably snap more easily with the repeative uses
11:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make them in two layers, doesn't have to be in one row.
11:37:15 <drac_boy> thats then going into reducency cost overrun and eventually someone would stop producing the 5th through 8th pin just because its still the same function
11:49:24 <drac_boy> just wondering but I assume that any town building id can be used in any climate meaning its possible to have 40+ different buildings in one climate if you had wanted to do that?
11:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that's basically exactly what happens every time :)
11:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you can have 256 ids in every climate
11:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you are _not_ restricted to the original IDs, nor to the original climate availability
11:57:42 <drac_boy> ah heh ok thats a lot of building variety
11:57:53 <drac_boy> thanks, wasn't sure since the wiki didn't quite say much
11:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> technically you can have 512 buildings, but you need two separate grfs then
11:59:59 <drac_boy> so how does the id work for more than 100 buildings?
12:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> IDs are hexadecimal
12:03:22 <drac_boy> so it'll go up to 9Fh then after that its AAh?
12:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> just use the escapes for decimal numbers, if you don't understand what hexadecimal is :)
12:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (or if you use NML, just write the decimal number)
12:06:40 <drac_boy> heh no nml for me, thanks still :P
12:07:59 <drac_boy> btw I hadn't known that the house ids went from numeric to alphabet for the first digit at first, now I do I guess :)
12:17:40 <peter1138> new word for hexadecimal: "numeric to alphabet"
12:28:38 <drac_boy> anyway need to do a few other things this morning but humm I'll see if I have any other little newgrf questions when I'm back or not :-)
12:31:26 <peter1138> hmm, so why is opengfx broken, or is it intentional?
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16:48:15 <andythenorth> so apparently we need marketing?
16:51:20 <SpComb> should market for more technical users who can contribute :)
16:52:00 <andythenorth> by increasing the total userbase, that would probably happen as some % of new users will be technical
16:52:23 * andythenorth wonders why 'popularity' is automatically assumed to be desirable
16:54:17 <Rubidium> too bad you'll first have to educate people, and I reckon there'll be a massive flood of the same question asked over and over again
16:55:57 <andythenorth> so you won't be buying google ads with your overflowing bank balance?
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16:58:41 <appe> < andythenorth> so apparently we need marketing?
16:59:35 <Terkhen> yeah, paying adds, facebook pages and so on
16:59:55 <Terkhen> as if we got paid for download or something
17:00:05 <Rubidium> and then trying to claim that paying for ads pays itself by increased ad revenue
17:00:14 <Rubidium> like the ad revenue is that good
17:00:16 <appe> what does your licence limit you to?
17:00:25 <andythenorth> arbitrage doesn't work very reliably
17:00:31 <appe> when it comes to hiring commercial biz for the sake of marketing.
17:00:31 <andythenorth> you can make revenue from good content
17:00:49 <andythenorth> but the arbitrage model is very slim, and easily broken by market conditions
17:01:24 <andythenorth> also, what would you do with the income? Other than pay more bandwidth (actually I think that was his suggestion)
17:01:25 <SpComb> only thing that might apply would be any trademarks
17:01:48 <andythenorth> once you start making money, any legal dispute with Atari does get more interesting for them to pursue
17:01:54 <andythenorth> whereas currently...not
17:02:16 <andythenorth> but I think the goal of marketing was explained as 'more fanbase'
17:02:34 <andythenorth> as though that is intinsically good
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17:10:34 <oskari89> Time to draw some level crossing related stuff :)
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17:16:57 <andythenorth> I think 'refurb / upgrade' might be a valid feature
17:17:08 <andythenorth> and could probably be handled by newgrf
17:17:22 <andythenorth> it 'just' needs a more structured way than currently available
17:21:07 <andythenorth> like an incremental variable on the vehicle for 'model variation' or such
17:23:34 <andythenorth> and then use cb36 to set props
17:23:44 <andythenorth> and the game or the newgrf can increment the var
17:23:55 <andythenorth> or the game asks the newgrf if it can increment the var....
17:24:23 <andythenorth> it would be better than the NARS / HEQS current kludge with upgrading model stats
17:25:03 * andythenorth would instantly abuse it by packing bits somehow so that it could also handle liveries :P
17:26:24 * frosch123 is amused about the discussion why there are no google ads on the ottd page :p
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17:36:37 <Matulla> Hi ,Question howto get a train waiting for at least 2 days for lading ,espacaly if there is no load in the station
17:36:59 <Matulla> is there a tutorial or howto around for this
17:37:45 <FLHerne> Timetables should do that
17:37:48 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: we need a way to refit to newer models anyway
17:38:10 <Matulla> i do a waystation after the train and direct it back if there is no load persent
17:38:20 <andythenorth> there is a way to refit to newer models
17:38:45 <andythenorth> but it plays badly with newgrfs where model stats change :)
17:39:07 <FLHerne> Nuisance to set up, but allow you to set station dwell time
17:39:09 <Rhamphoryncus> That's what I mean
17:40:39 <andythenorth> if newgrfs had a method to indicate available model upgrades that would work better
17:40:50 <andythenorth> they could also specify a cost for upgrade / refurb
17:40:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Why again don't they just have 3 different engines?
17:41:31 <andythenorth> HEQS could have 5 different models of mog
17:41:35 <andythenorth> but it's tiresome
17:41:57 <andythenorth> they're not significantly different enough to warrant a separate model
17:42:13 <Rhamphoryncus> So.. fix the buy menu. And make sure the newgrf can override upgrade costs so it can do cheaper refits/refurbs
17:42:46 <andythenorth> so 'auto-replace' becomes 'refurb' ?
17:42:53 <andythenorth> auto-renew / replace /s
17:43:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Replace to a different engine, refit to a different model of the same engine, refurb to the same model
17:45:20 <andythenorth> refurb just resets reliability?
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24087 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt french.txt korean.txt latvian.txt):
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by Parody
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by OliTTD
17:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 30 changes by Parastais
17:45:30 <andythenorth> or changes other stats?
17:46:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Reliability. Is there another stat that should be reset?
17:46:19 <andythenorth> I'd have to read code about how reliability actually works :P
17:46:42 <andythenorth> something like NARS adjusts costs according to class age iirc
17:46:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, running cost too, if the newgrf is playing with that
17:47:09 <andythenorth> but to handle that, a method is then needed between newgrf and game....
17:47:23 <andythenorth> i.e. a refurb counter or such
17:48:03 <andythenorth> I guess it's a subset of general storage I'd like to see for 'variations' on vehicles
17:48:16 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, the class age costs should be a small increase. Larger increase should be time since last refurbishment
17:48:39 <andythenorth> that's fine, but the newgrf spec has no opinion
17:48:51 <andythenorth> therefore you have no way to influence that other than social pressure ;)
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17:51:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Just par for me ;)
17:51:22 <andythenorth> if a more general storage was available, we could stop abusing cargo subtypes
17:51:31 <andythenorth> which happens currently, and is a mess
17:51:46 <andythenorth> hmm, tidy minds are bad
17:58:15 <Rhamphoryncus> There we go, flipped my charts and got the proper labels on it. Now I've figured out what I want to do with cargo payments
17:59:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Each cargo type has a speed threshold that goes up with distance. For oil or coal it's pretty flat; they don't care about speed. For passengers it's steep, but with a couple plateaus to allow buses for short trips
18:00:05 <Rhamphoryncus> The speed threshold is the point of decreasing returns on payment, where farther gets you less and less benefit
18:00:07 <andythenorth> you doing it with newgrf?
18:00:28 <andythenorth> had a look at FIRS payment curves?
18:00:39 <Rhamphoryncus> ... I didn't know FIRS had payment curves ;)
18:00:57 <andythenorth> it does, the originals are unworkable except for a certain subset of play styles
18:01:10 <andythenorth> basically I don't want to ship coal by maglev
18:01:31 <Rhamphoryncus> So.. 90% of my recent gameplay hasn't worked the way I thought it did
18:01:36 <andythenorth> nor should ships be penalised over long distances
18:03:40 <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm. So the in-game cargo payment screen is broken with FIRS :)
18:04:14 <andythenorth> other than 'too many cargos', how?
18:04:27 <Rhamphoryncus> The information it's giving me is irrelevant
18:04:46 <Rhamphoryncus> As it's just the standard algorithm
18:05:24 <andythenorth> there are a number of curve adjustment parameters we use
18:05:32 <andythenorth> but only those exposed to newgrf, nothing other than that
18:05:51 <Rhamphoryncus> I'll definitely have to look
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19:05:31 <drac_boy> so which var or so would it had been to be able to change sprite&length for a vehicle in the depot refit window?
19:13:30 * drac_boy wonders who xiong could be
19:17:44 <drac_boy> I mean why the frequent coming&going :p
19:21:27 <xiong> When I returned my own people laughed at me, calling me He Who Speaks Loud Saying Nothing. Now, I am Nobody.
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20:33:59 <xiong> When I returned my own people laughed at me, calling me He Who Speaks Loud Saying Nothing. Now, I am Nobody.
20:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> poor he-who-speaks-loudly-not-listening-to-me :/
20:34:48 <xiong> drac_boy, I am an ATT customer on his last day. I am going to try Comcast, whose lineman is arriving... shortly.
20:35:17 <drac_boy> eddi yeah I can't seem to make much sense of him
20:35:23 <drac_boy> wonder why I ever asked in first place heh
20:35:35 <xiong> drac_boy, What is difficult?
20:36:16 <xiong> ATT connectivity stinks. It stunk before and has gotten much worse recently. Therefore you see me coming and going.
20:36:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Ugh, that was annoying. nmlc choked because I tried making a symlink to it.. but the error it gave mentioned the file I edited, and the specific line I edited
20:36:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Which was a complete coincidence
20:37:05 <xiong> What's difficult is figuring out a rational statement of who I am, beyond my name. Who can answer this?
20:37:13 * xiong 51 M San Francisco CA former hardware engineer, proud autistic; Perl, history, railroad models, recreational geometry; Be active: http://xuefang.com/waiban/
20:38:02 * xiong 52 M San Francisco CA former hardware engineer, proud autistic; Perl, history, railroad models, recreational geometry; Be active: http://xuefang.com/waiban/
20:38:06 <frosch123> what.... simutrans has a osx developer :o
20:40:12 <xiong> Ha ha. My new Netgear cable modem came with the complete printed text of GPL v2 *and* v3. Perhaps I'm allowed to choose.
20:40:40 <drac_boy> how're you frosch123?
20:40:59 <frosch123> pondering going to bed :p
20:41:24 <drac_boy> I'm just drawing a bit and still trying to figure out patch vars .. well .. aside to being on irc a bit :p
20:41:34 <drac_boy> at some point I guess I'll start supper
20:42:14 * xiong wonders, who is drac_boy?
20:43:50 <xiong> ... and, Have you any tobacco?
20:48:44 <drac_boy> frosch123 don't know if you wanted to answer this before bed or not but - can you set different sprite lengths for vehicle refits?
20:50:08 <frosch123> you can change the length of vehicles with refitting
20:50:23 <frosch123> heqs does that to simulate more or less vehicles
20:50:51 <drac_boy> well I guess the problem is I can't quite figure out which vars thats supposed to be? :)
20:52:08 <drac_boy> ah sorry should had mentioned that, nfo :)
20:52:46 <frosch123> then it's callback 11 for grf version <= 7, resp. callback 36 for grf version >= 8
20:53:49 <drac_boy> oh, thanks frosch123. have a good sleep hopefully :)
20:54:03 <frosch123> now i scared you off, right? :p
20:56:21 <drac_boy> one of the few reasons I asked about that was to save some vehicle ids in the list if I can just lump cabover and conventional tractors together considering both share the same engine and number of axle
20:56:35 <drac_boy> seem like a waste of slots in the list otherwise
20:58:05 <frosch123> sounds like a livery refit
20:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <drac_boy> eddi yeah I can't seem to make much sense of him <-- i meant he has me on his ignore list
21:00:21 <drac_boy> frosch123 mm well the sprites are a bit different length as well
21:00:33 <drac_boy> anyway back to some more drawing for me ;)
21:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the question you should be askong when deciding whether to use livery refit or separate vehicles is: "what's the gameplay difference between both, and would a player ever want to autoreplace one to the other?"
21:01:49 <frosch123> simutrans always feels weird to me... all graphic "paks" they have are always complete basesets
21:01:57 <frosch123> there seems to be no way to combine stuff
21:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: make a combined pak :p
21:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> my simutrans version is from 2002-ish
21:03:13 <frosch123> at some point i had a hellish slow simutrans which tried to simulate pedestrians
21:03:29 <frosch123> i did not manage to turn that crap off
21:03:44 <frosch123> so i do not know whether it would have run faster
21:03:58 <drac_boy> eddi heh well I don't think there would be any reason to offer autoreplace on them btw. but it'll be seperate id for the smaller 2-axle verus larger 3-axle ones on other hand
21:04:21 <frosch123> but they seem to have diagonal roads
21:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if there's absolutely no difference (power, speed, etc.) then you might consider leaving one out
21:05:11 <frosch123> oh, good that we never added highway graphics to ottd
21:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there's the dutch road furniture grf
21:05:42 * Belugas closes the books and heads to home, where some manual work awaits him. again. night all
21:05:49 <drac_boy> eddi well its an aethistic matter so I'll rather put both in. someone might want the cabover look while another player wants conventional nose instead
21:05:49 <frosch123> vehicles stopping on the highway just because the vehicle in front is driving slightly slower looks funny
21:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> highways are in dire need of smoother curves
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21:13:03 <drac_boy> hm pastebin.ca seem to be down -_-
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21:15:40 <drac_boy> eddi would you mind pm for a moment?
21:16:24 <drac_boy> well paste is down...and I dunno about spamming a little bit in here. but if you're not interested re trucks thats ok anyway
21:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> use paste.openttdcoop.org?
21:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there are like a dozen paste sites
21:28:35 <drac_boy> sorry, had a phone call. heres one example of what I was thinking about. its still open to debate yet of course. the multiplier is just roughly by about how much more cargo it can take http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1279/
21:29:31 <drac_boy> thats what the refit list would had looked like
22:13:30 <drac_boy> sure is quite a lot of smoke from the pot -_-
22:13:35 <drac_boy> at least supper's almost done
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