IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-20
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00:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "movement pattern" means "ability to make turns other than on tile borders"
00:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "construction method" includes things like "how do you make a connection from single to double", "how do you make branches", "how do you make crossovers", "how do you make curves in a way that you don't end up with 4 rails on diagonal tracks"
00:03:17 <Nat_as> I remember in simutrans i participated in a few flamewars over the topic of double track
00:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and "map array" is about storing the track bits, the track reservations, signals, etc. with using as few bits as possible
00:03:36 <Nat_as> mostly because I was playing RT3 before that and it had double track
00:03:44 <Nat_as> but that was a much diffrent game
00:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can solve all these things, then you have a good chance of implementing this
00:03:54 <Nat_as> focusing more on economics than track layout.
00:04:22 <Nat_as> for instance trains would just stop and turn transparent as other trains would pass through them.
00:04:40 <Nat_as> it allowed you to share tracks with other companies though, which is cool.
00:04:46 <Nat_as> probably not at all practical in OTTD.
00:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the next pitfall of doubletracks then is (newgrf) stations
00:05:58 <Nat_as> the indusrial station newgrif has a "classification yard" tileset with a cosmetic 3rd track.
00:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is not how it's going to work. because that track is actually between two tiles
00:07:33 <Nat_as> I wish the industrial stations newgrif was updaited
00:07:38 <Nat_as> it does not have stations for all cargo types
00:07:46 <Nat_as> but it is still the best station newgrif
00:07:54 <Nat_as> I wish the pasinger station ones were as nice.
00:08:28 <Nat_as> needs to be more automatic stations in general.
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01:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (117-25*3)/3
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10:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> mondays are never good...
10:25:42 <Pikka> gentlemen, is 1.2 possibly coming out before april 1st? :o
10:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's carneval monday, that's like as bad as it can get...
10:27:09 <Ammler> Pikka: you have it already since christmas
10:28:54 <Pikka> the betas and release candidates, yes
10:29:24 <Pikka> I only want to know because I'm aiming to have stuff done by the release :)
10:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> by my experience, releases are almost never early... :p
10:31:17 <Pikka> but april 1st is only an unofficial date
10:31:19 <peter1138> past history suggests it might be 1st of april :p
10:31:27 * peter1138 doesn't know, however
10:31:35 <Pikka> an RC so early has me spooked though :)
10:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> why? if you think 3 RCs and an RC every 2 weeks...
10:35:22 <peter1138> any plans for 32bpp/ez? ;p
10:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i have plans for ez, but my artists doesn't seem to agree :p
10:40:40 <peter1138> ah cool, i haven't read geektoo's discovery yet :p
10:40:56 <planetmaker> Pikka: it's the usual time
10:42:37 <peter1138> nice for rubidium to come up with a script to do the magic work :)
10:43:04 <peter1138> yeah "it's all wasted" well no, the sprites are still there
10:46:02 <planetmaker> finally. Also RC1 announced
10:47:27 <peter1138> the performance penalty for trying to load pngs was quite severe. it would be even worse with lots of pngs available...
10:49:07 <planetmaker> I tried to mention it. Maybe you can elaborate on that more, petern
10:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: your post fails to link to the title game competition
11:00:16 <planetmaker> hm :-) I should change that. Thanks
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11:31:40 <Pikka> that said, there are a few var 98 checks I'd have to get rid of in ukrs2 if that variable could change in unpredictable ways...
11:36:03 <Pikka> was, has been, will be again!
11:37:19 <planetmaker> apropos: how's you new life? :-)
11:37:50 <andythenorth> are you still on the buses?
11:39:01 <Pikka> I'm on holiday all next month trying to get grfs finished for 1.2.0, then I'll be getting into writing and graphicing and generally trying to make a living off my wits. :)
11:41:19 <Pikka> working on UKRS at the moment, getting quite a bit done but unfortunately I'm thinking of more stuff to add at about the same rate as I'm adding stuff. :D
11:41:28 <Pikka> I like your procedurally generated truck trailers andy
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11:45:31 * andythenorth procedurally generates irc
11:46:15 <andythenorth> there's medication available I'm told
11:47:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: where in the world are you?
11:48:44 <Pikka> where in the world? brisbane, as usual
11:50:52 <andythenorth> you seem to gad about occasionally ;)
11:52:51 <Pikka> hopefully more so in the future, if I can make a bit of money and am no longer tied down by working for the man
11:53:43 * andythenorth is in the position of being the man
11:53:47 <andythenorth> so can't stop working for him
11:54:42 * andythenorth wishes the man would give him more time to code pixels
11:56:37 <Pikka> they're just trucks, right? rigids too? going back how far?
11:56:48 * Pikka would like to resurrect HOVS some time
11:57:02 <Pikka> you do the trucks, I'll do the buses and trams :}
11:57:21 <Elukka> <Eddi|zuHause> i have plans for ez, but my artists doesn't seem to agree :p
11:57:27 <Elukka> i think your artists first want to get some playable amount of vehicles drawn, and one of them is so terminally lazy he'd get nothing done if it took him even more time to draw a thing :p
11:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so... i played transport giant for 5 minutes, and i'm already totally annoyed
12:01:04 <andythenorth> Pikka: trucks from 1905, maybe earlier if I add steam trucks
12:02:24 <andythenorth> it's being drawn to Dan's NARVS scale (small)
12:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: for starters a closed wagon in white (for refrigerated) would be nice :)
12:02:56 * Pikka will have to draw some buses
12:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> what was wrong with HOVS actually? the last "secret" version i played seemed nice (although i probably haven't seen the later years)
12:03:44 <Pikka> after I draw all these darn trains D:
12:04:05 <Pikka> nothing was wrong with it Eddi
12:04:37 <Pikka> it's just old and mostly based on the original graphics. It's very much in the spirit of UKRS1
12:05:07 <Pikka> oh, and the secret version didn't have any later years, that's what was wrong with it. :)
12:05:15 <Pikka> any trucks for later years, anyway
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12:07:12 <andythenorth> I recently played with HOVS to inspire BANDIT design
12:07:30 <andythenorth> Pikka: our man in canada is keen to do buses too
12:07:35 <andythenorth> he has an acronym :P
12:08:03 <Pikka> well, HOVS can be strictly UK-style
12:08:06 <andythenorth> BANDIT is multi-region btw
12:08:42 <andythenorth> BANDIT will have parameters for north america, europe, australia/NZ, maybe others
12:09:05 <andythenorth> I'm hoping Dan / somebody will draw some truck cabs
12:09:14 <andythenorth> trailers will generate ok
12:09:48 <andythenorth> the BANDIT code will be easy to extend to buses
12:10:23 <Pikka> the generation code or the nfo/nml code?
12:10:33 <andythenorth> the nml templating
12:10:53 <andythenorth> articulated buses? tick
12:11:10 <andythenorth> buses that refit to have a cargo trailer? tick (if wanted)
12:11:25 <Pikka> are you using my train graphics templates btw, or something else?
12:11:42 <andythenorth> someone made templates for the nml wiki
12:11:51 <Pikka> okay, I'll look into them for HOVS
12:11:59 <Pikka> we should coordinate on running/purchase costs?
12:12:02 * andythenorth has drunk the koolaid on nml now
12:12:17 * Pikka hasn't and isn't likely to, but if you're coding that's fine with me
12:12:35 <andythenorth> I calculate costs, with the ability to manually over-ride for specific vehicles
12:13:48 <andythenorth> it's python, but don't worry about that :)
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12:16:37 <Pikka> calculating purely from HP? :P
12:17:01 <andythenorth> I was uninspired
12:17:10 <andythenorth> that sets the base run cost value
12:17:23 <andythenorth> that's the code in the build script
12:17:30 <andythenorth> I could do variable running costs too - with nml varaction 2 stuff
12:17:49 <andythenorth> 'base' is an unfortunate choice of word above :P
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12:19:35 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i started on that, might as well get it finished
12:19:39 <Pikka> Brianetta we hardly knew you
12:19:57 <Elukka> if we went 32bpp, we'd have a vastly easier time adding some more contrast to make them pop out a bit
12:20:25 <andythenorth> Elukka: you could generate that one :P
12:20:39 <andythenorth> might be more work than drawing it though....
12:21:19 <andythenorth> depends if you need a lot of fridge vans at different lengths, colours etc
12:21:32 <Pikka> andy: generate me a Gresley D49!
12:21:50 <Elukka> i do need to make a wagon that's pretty much this but a bit shorter
12:22:20 <Elukka> i have no idea how to generate stuff though
12:22:28 <andythenorth> pikka if you only have <256 unique sequences of pixels in your image, they can be generated :P
12:22:32 <andythenorth> but it might be insane
12:23:55 <Elukka> for the most part i can deal with stuff like refrigerated variants just by replacing colors
12:24:30 <Elukka> the least painless method in photoshop that i've discovered is magic wand, contiguous unticked, click color to replace, brush over with new color
12:25:51 <Elukka> um. the most painless, least painless would be bad :P
12:25:57 <andythenorth> Elukka: how much recolouring do you have to do?
12:26:10 <andythenorth> recolouring is actually a more trivial thing to do than generating
12:26:15 <andythenorth> also...comping load sprites
12:26:35 <Elukka> most passenger wagons in particular have a bunch of variants
12:26:51 <andythenorth> with my method, you set up colour tables and tell the graphics generator to replace colours
12:27:27 <andythenorth> do you have stuff like yellow strip / no yellow stripe?
12:27:33 <andythenorth> (for first class)
12:28:38 <Elukka> currently more like that, see the upper two trains
12:30:48 <andythenorth> Elukka: that would be easy to do with the generator, *assuming* you don't use the brown anywhere else in the sprite
12:31:01 <andythenorth> although you can work around that by drawing in false colour, then generating all the liveries
12:31:16 <Elukka> i probably don't anyway
12:31:35 <andythenorth> you need to persuade Eddi|zuHause that he finds the pixel generator interesting :P
12:31:56 <Elukka> well he doesn't draw them :P
12:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the recolouring is probably the least of the problems...
12:32:57 <andythenorth> Elukka: those three wheel coaches could be procedurally generated
12:33:01 <andythenorth> they're a simple structure
12:33:29 <andythenorth> they're a good case
12:33:32 <andythenorth> the wagons and the lowest line of coaches would be bad cases
12:36:11 <Elukka> well it might be useful if you could just generate a starting point
12:36:14 <Elukka> and draw on top of that
12:36:24 <andythenorth> Elukka: you saw the carriage I generated?
12:36:47 <andythenorth> literally a few minutes effort
12:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in my mind it would work like this, you give an array for each length unit, i.e. a 5lu closed wagon would look like [(left_buffer,wall,flat_roof),(small_wheel,wall,flat_roof),(wall,flat_roof),(small_wheel,wall,flat_roof),(right_buffer,wall,braker_cab)]
12:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and then it creates the graphics from these components
12:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it won't be particularly pretty, but it might be enough to be playable
12:38:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's roughly how it works
12:38:42 <andythenorth> the code is in the BANDIT repo
12:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i tried to look at it, but it didn't make any sense to me
12:39:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's a little bit more atomic than your description
12:39:43 <andythenorth> although it could work your way
12:40:16 <andythenorth> abstracted, the principle is: for pixel x, y, colour: draw a sequence of pixels relative to x, y
12:40:29 <andythenorth> colour of new pixels is set per pixel
12:41:14 <Elukka> eddi, what's your stance on the 32bpp thing
12:41:38 <andythenorth> ^^ the last row shows how load sprites are just a shift + recolour of the pattern on the floor
12:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: my stance is "make the sprites, we figure it out later
12:42:31 <Elukka> every sprite would be a lot easier to do if i didn't have to worry about palettes
12:42:50 <andythenorth> what's the palette issue?
12:43:24 <Elukka> *i'll start working with 32bpp, then
12:43:38 <Elukka> turning them into 8bpp would probably require a manual reworking, though
12:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the more 32bpp sprites we have, the more pressure is for anyone actually implementing (new) 32bpp support in nml :p
12:44:44 <Elukka> i'm also gonna recolor the prussian coaches to something more accurate, plus give them some more lighting
12:46:37 <andythenorth> not using the 8bpp palette is cheating :P
12:47:00 <Elukka> any file format rules for 32bpp sprites? or is it just a normal png
12:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's just another png
13:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there doesn't seem to be an nml var to access var 0xFA (random bits)
13:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "7C W [TTDPatch] Index of the 'engine' (i.e. the first vehicle) of the consist" <-- this doesn't seem to be implemented in openttd. i understand that this should be the front of an articulated consist
13:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> could be useful for var 61
13:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe i'm interpreting this wrong
13:12:50 <Elukka> okay, 32bpp is worth it just for the ability to adjust colors however you like...
13:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i have no idea how to do recolouring then, though
13:14:08 <Elukka> do we need recoloring for stuff other than hypothetical future company colors and cargos?
13:14:18 <Elukka> cargo would be easy enough to keep to the 8bpp palette if needed
13:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the current plan is only cargo, but in principle we can recolour on any condition and any part of the vehicle
13:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> like make the door blue on wednesdays
13:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> one useful case for recolouring would be head/tail lights
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13:21:30 <RhamphMobile> I have no wired internet... yet somehow my phone on our wifi still works.
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13:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> why is var 49 called "build_year" and not "build_date"?
13:36:47 <Rhamphoryncus> because peanuts.
13:39:02 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins of course
13:41:21 <Ammler> would it already be possible to make 32bpp grfs with nml, if you use grfcodec to encode the "nml-nfo"?
13:46:27 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Recolouring works by a separate paletted mask sprite. For each pixel that is recoloured, the blitter calcluates the brightness from the RGB value and modulates the looked-up palette colour with it.
13:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: so you can only recolour bright pixels with other bright pixels and dark pixels with other dark pixels, or what?
13:48:14 <michi_cc> The formula is pixel = max(r,g,b,) / 64.0f * palette_to_rgb(index)
13:49:03 <michi_cc> So a max brightness of 128 would double the brightness of the palette colour and 32 would half it.
13:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i understand the impact of this...
13:50:21 <michi_cc> In reality it is a bit more complicated to avoid e.g. overflow of course.
13:53:58 <andythenorth> that all sounds like 'ow'
13:54:14 * andythenorth will stick to recolouring at compile time :)
14:03:36 <michi_cc> Hmm, probably a bit more read like the updated image.
14:11:12 <appe> good afternoon, guurmans.
14:16:08 <Belugas> good day to you, dihedral
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15:41:29 <Jogio> is somebody here who has time to explain how I can use diff?
15:42:43 <Rubidium> I guess that depends on the actual question
15:43:17 <Jogio> ähm I have no clue what I have to do to use it
15:44:31 <__ln__> but you are convinced you need to use it?
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15:44:54 <Jogio> I have about 10 files modified
15:45:26 <Jogio> but when I wrote here I realised I made a thinking error
15:45:27 <dihedral> if you use a version controll system (svn, git, hg, etc.) you can use svn diff, hg diff, git diff ...
15:45:55 <dihedral> diff itself compares 2 files
15:46:05 <dihedral> so you need the original files to compare against
15:46:15 <dihedral> what changes have you made?
15:46:45 <Jogio> my thinking error was i can use diff direct old modified openttd version with new unmodified version
15:47:15 <Rubidium> you can, but it's likely not going to give the wanted result
15:47:23 <Jogio> but I have to make a patch with modified and unmodified openttd version first, right?
15:47:52 <Jogio> yeah, maybe I can help myself
15:48:03 <Jogio> I will write if I have a question
15:48:17 <dihedral> checkout the source using svn or hg
15:48:24 <dihedral> that will make it easier for you
15:48:56 <Jogio> I have already zip file with source code
15:49:36 <dihedral> if you use a version controll system, you can always see your changes, see what files you have changed, get the diff, update (by getting only the changes) and revert your changes
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16:05:39 <Jogio> good morning at this time sounds strange in europe
16:06:44 <dihedral> who says he/she is in europe? ;-)
16:12:00 <MNIM> Well, the majority of this channel's userbase is european, isn't it?
16:12:12 <MNIM> so to the question 'who' I would say 'statistics'
16:13:39 <supermop> maybe i am wishing you an ex post facto good morning
16:19:33 <Jogio> I wanted to make a joke here, but I don't know english word for "Beamter" :-)
16:30:31 <MNIM> I would say 'bureacrat' though that isn't exactly the literal translation.
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17:32:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: so are changes like mine going to be ignored until after release?
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17:33:53 <Rhamphoryncus> I mean in terms of review. I don't expect it to be applied right now.
17:34:28 <Rubidium> it's the thing that you just today put on flyspray, isn't it?
17:35:06 <Rhamphoryncus> last night, but yeah.
17:36:20 <Rubidium> then I'd not quite call it ignored yet
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17:37:05 <Rubidium> even then, 1.2 already branched off, so it won't make 1.2 in any case
17:37:26 <Rhamphoryncus> No, of course not. I'm more thinking about scale here. A week would be good normally. With a release imminent I'd expect a couple more weeks on that, or more.
17:37:54 <Rubidium> if only there was enough time
17:38:25 <Rhamphoryncus> As long as there's good communication I can wait a long time ;)
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17:45:59 <Rubidium> does this implicitly sync vehicles in an order list?
17:47:19 <Rubidium> or are you, if a vehicle is late enough move the departure back by <length of timetable>/<number of vehicles>?
17:47:41 <Rubidium> as in that case you'll eventually end up with al vehicles going at the same time
17:47:52 <Rubidium> or at least some sort of clumping together
17:54:32 <appe> im using C# in ASP.NET, and im trying to find and replace parts of a string.
17:55:04 <appe> the string might contain "number" (as in "300"), or "numberkr" (as in "300kr").
17:55:13 <appe> i wish to add "kr" to every string that doesnt already have it.
18:01:36 <valhallasw> appe: String.EndsWith, maybe .ParseInt?
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18:25:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: vehicle order doesn't matter. Each order independently tracks departures and hands them out in a first-come-first-serve basis
18:26:36 <Rhamphoryncus> The only interaction is they derive their timing from the orderlist
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18:39:21 <Jogio> the guy with the diff question is back and I have to say I succeded (after some hunk errors because of false paths I entered)
18:43:34 <dihedral> the guy who advised using a version control system is also here :-P
18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23972 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt latvian.txt ukrainian.txt unfinished/urdu.txt):
18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 54 changes by junho2813, telk5093
18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 45 changes by Parastais
18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 11 changes by edd_k
18:45:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: urdu - 194 changes by haider
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18:53:23 <LordAro> also, why are grfcodec binaries not published to bundles.openttdcoop.org?
18:53:46 <LordAro> ok, perhaps they have to go through openttd.org, but perhaps a message or something about where they are?
18:54:15 <appe> valhallasw: ill try endswith.
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19:08:13 <Rubidium> LordAro: mostly because grfcodec was compiled by the CF before it was on openttdcoop
19:09:02 <Rubidium> and it never made sense to move it
19:14:24 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: also your patch doesn't apply to head and you specific no version and I can't be bothered to try to figure out what revision to apply it to
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19:19:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: fair enough. I'll update it.
19:22:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: thanks for looking btw
19:28:43 <LordAro> gah, my previous question was supposed to be on #openttdcoop.devzone - stupid mouse scroll wheel :)
19:29:09 <LordAro> Rubidium: the problem is htp://bundles.openttd.org/grfcodec appears to be empty
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19:30:26 <Rubidium> LordAro: blame Ammler for that ;)
19:30:56 <LordAro> hence why it was supposed to be in devzone channel :)
19:32:43 <Ammler> LordAro: where do you get the url to bundles?
19:33:37 <LordAro> not from anywhere else, it's just what i use to find the bundles (or did i misunderstand the question?)
19:34:29 <Ammler> no, I wonder, why you get the idea, that grfcodec should be there
19:35:03 <andythenorth> it is there isn't it?
19:35:39 <Ammler> it never was afaik, only nightlies we use for building the newgrfs there
19:36:39 <Ammler> andythenorth: speaking about publishing binaries on bundles, not developing on DevZone
19:38:25 <Ammler> Rubidium: blame me for?
19:39:28 <Ammler> shall we not publish those nightlies?
19:40:03 <LordAro> i still think there should be amessage about where the binaries actually are - took me a while to figure it out :)
19:40:16 <Ammler> yes, where should be that message?
19:40:55 <Ammler> on the homepage of grfcodec, it is quite clear, isn't?
19:41:31 <Rubidium> Ammler: it might not have been the wisest decision to keep binaries and logs that are purely for your compiler in the public "here are all the packaged binaries" section of the "website" (i.e. bundles.openttdcoop.org)
19:42:56 <Ammler> well, I can redirect that path to openttd.org as it isn't needed for http
19:43:57 <Ammler> hmm, right now, I am not able to ssh, I will create a ticket... :-)
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20:34:26 <wica> I'm running 1.2.0-beta4, and my online content stays empty
20:34:42 <wica> where do I start to search the problem?
20:35:04 <wica> and btw, my internet connection is working :)
20:35:19 <Rubidium> can you reach www.openttd.org?
20:35:27 <Rubidium> did the online content ever work?
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20:35:58 <wica> It did, but I checked it a long time ago
20:36:15 <Rubidium> does your OS by any chance resolve IPv6 addresses, but without an actual IPv6 connection?
20:36:16 <wica> Last time, was I think 1 year ago
20:36:31 <wica> Thnx, that is to probloem
20:36:33 <Rubidium> as the server is currently working just fine for me
20:36:45 <wica> ipv6 resolving is the problem
20:36:57 <wica> stupid off my to forget :)
20:38:05 <wica> btw, great to hear that openttd has IPv6 support
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20:40:51 <Rubidium> OpenTTD already has IPv6 support for over 1.5 million minutes ;)
20:41:30 <Rubidium> (or nearly 150 weeks)
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20:58:18 <appe> ipv6 support measured in ..time?
21:08:56 <krinn> hi guys, i have an AIList and when i put elements in it (in random order), but when i foreach the list i see they are sort by value already, openttd always ressort an AIList when new item is add ?
21:11:17 <Yexo> krinn: yes, that's by design
21:11:47 <krinn> ah, doesn't help me in my case so
21:12:14 <Zuu> You can use an item valuator or just AIList.AddItem(item, item);
21:12:20 <Yexo> use a simple list if you want to keep your original order
21:12:24 <krinn> and it's a bit time consuming to ressort list just because a item is add no ? i mean we have a function to ask a sort already
21:12:49 <Yexo> yes, the current implementation is not very efficient
21:12:57 <andythenorth> ^^ for x, x = -1 :P
21:12:59 <krinn> i must use AIList, because i wish the value sort but after then i just wish keep the order
21:13:17 <Yexo> however it's hard to improve the code while keeping the current behavior is hard
21:13:27 <Zuu> You can sort squirrel lists too.
21:13:44 <Yexo> if the "keep list sorted when elements are added"-requirement can be dropped things become a lot easier already
21:13:58 <krinn> you know a bit like wishing add 90 30 40 i then set their value to 0 2 1 -> sorting them and now reusing their value with their real task while the list is sort as 90 40 30
21:14:01 <Zuu> I have a list implementation myself as in ScoreList in SuperLib from the very old times when NoAI was just released.
21:14:15 <Yexo> I might just do that for openttd 1.3
21:14:57 <krinn> not only that but adding 1000 elements to an AIList imply 1000 sorting no ?
21:15:15 <Yexo> adding an element to a sorted list is not as slow as a complete resort
21:15:52 <krinn> yep, but you are doing it 1 time for the sort, and 1000 time for the "add to already sort list"
21:16:35 <Yexo> but "add to sorted list" can be O(sqrt N) (it probably is O(N) though), which is much better than the O(N * sqrt N) you'd need for resorting every time
21:17:39 * andythenorth was wondering if the tank trailer was too hard for procedural drawing
21:17:51 <andythenorth> but I can change the colours by adding one entry to a dict
21:18:10 <krinn> i don't know, but the math seems weakned by logic there
21:20:57 <Zuu> After learning CluelssPlus how to build industry airports, I need to teach it some ROI calculations as it ended up with some expansive low profit coal routes.
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21:22:52 <supermop> never seen a black tank on a truck though, only train cars
21:23:12 <supermop> would suggest white or silver with a cc stripe
21:23:36 <MNIM> ....Hmmmh. I've got one of the most expansive rail networks Ive ever made, spanning over the full 1024 tiles wide map, yet Im still using almost fourty year old trains.
21:25:46 <MNIM> Hmmmh. One of the main issues with black tanks is that they absorb heat like mad - not very desirable in most situations with liquid transport.
21:26:41 <MNIM> since most liquids that are transported in a tanker are either volatile or prone to evaporate and create high pressures when being heated up by a sun-lit black tank
21:26:54 <MNIM> or they go bad, like milk
21:30:17 <dihedral> Rhamphoryncus, #if 0 <- in your patch?
21:31:06 <Zuu> krinn: Do you have any new AI developments going on?
21:33:23 <andythenorth> I nearly gave up on coding the tankers - glad I didn't :D
21:33:37 <andythenorth> it would have been no easier to draw them
21:33:54 <andythenorth> as coding them basically involves copying the pixel values for a section into code
21:34:40 <krinn> Zuu, yes dev was stall because of the big bug that let openttd crash, it was then hard to get, and i kinda lost faith
21:35:07 <krinn> Zuu, but it's now fix, so the moral is back
21:35:37 <Zuu> Which bug was it? The sort function?
21:35:43 <andythenorth> also the same input for flatbeds etc ;)
21:36:14 <krinn> no, that's not a bug, kinda unexpected feature for me, i will try to find the # in the bug report wait a sec
21:36:17 <Zuu> Great you're back on track :-)
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21:37:06 <krinn> a stupid recursive call, the vm was going OOM and openttd crash
21:37:15 <Zuu> The squirrel sort had a problem that you could hang OpenTTD with a badly written comparator function.
21:37:49 <dihedral> krinn, it's fixed ...
21:38:19 <krinn> and i was stuck as i couldn't get any ouput from the ai (i know don't ask me why i didn't think before to run it in a console to get the output)
21:38:58 <krinn> dihedral, yep it should, but the issue with my AI trigger the bug and it was then hard to catch what was doing it
21:39:52 <Zuu> Whenever I succed to crash OpenTTD with an AI or GameScript I compile OpenTTD myself and run it from a debugger (Visual Studio) so that I can see the callstack of OpenTTD when it crashes to perhaps get an idea what the problem is. Of course I submit a bug report also, if I manage to crash OpenTTD.
21:39:56 <krinn> crash.log should record last message from AI
21:40:54 <krinn> lol zuu, it was easier for me (that's why i'm a bit ashame) i just have to run it in the console, so once crash i was back to the console and i could scroll up the buffer to see my last ai messages
21:41:32 <Yexo> as long as you report the crash on bugs.openttd.org it's fine :)
21:41:51 <Yexo> extra investigation like Zuu does is of course greatly appreciated, but I'd vastly prefer feedback without it then no feedback at all
21:42:30 <krinn> well, once i find the bad recursion in my AI the problem for openttd was easier to find no ?
21:43:19 <Yexo> (or rather: most likely. I didn't actually see that bug until just now)
21:44:04 <Zuu> But probably it did. Because a problem with stack overflows is that they usually make the callstack useless if you look at it when the debugger auto-kicks in as it is too late.
21:44:37 <Zuu> It helps to have an idea when you want to start looking at the callstack.
21:44:47 <Rubidium> having a reliable crash/reproduction is most important; only once I figured out under which circumstances it crashed I could see the call stack and such
21:44:54 <krinn> well, it was a stupid bug, but it's always good as someone might have use it to DOS some openttd server or anything
21:45:33 <krinn> specially with the new NoGo framework that should also be affect
21:45:34 <dihedral> by needing the admin to install an ai
21:45:36 <Rubidium> krinn: luckily it has to be initiated by the server owner (or someone with rcon password)
21:46:01 <krinn> with NoGo, you can do it nasty and have the admin do the task for you
21:46:47 <krinn> generally except (belgium trojan), people avoid to name their trojan as "trojan-thing" "crash-your-game"... :)
21:47:01 <Zuu> The server owner still have to select the NoGo, unless triggered via a scenario/savegame
21:47:16 <dihedral> which the server owner will only do once :P
21:48:11 <krinn> well, for me it was running yearly, but it would be harder if trigger by date or every 10 years to catch it
21:48:53 <krinn> anyway you can imagine how bad my mood was that my AI let openttd crash :/
21:49:32 <Zuu> See it the other way, you found a bug that is now ironed out.
21:49:34 * Rubidium remembers a desync that'd only trigger after ~20 game years
21:50:04 <Rubidium> which means you needed to be connected for >5 hours to be "egligable" to desync
21:50:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: need tank wagons?
21:50:34 <krinn> well, one could have made it in a nogo script trigger by even by a player to crash the server
21:50:34 <dihedral> which can be easily done for some players, Rubidium :-D
21:51:11 <krinn> i mean put 3 trees at pos X --> trigger the bug... dos by a player, and the server owner could run it 10000 years without trigger it himself
21:51:15 <dihedral> krinn, of course, but still, the NoGo script has to be installed by the admin, and then he will never do it again ;-)
21:51:38 <andythenorth> hmm....gestalts could be shared around
21:51:45 <krinn> dihedral, he must catch it first :P
21:52:00 <andythenorth> that means anyone could create an input png and generate vehicles of type x :P
21:52:08 <krinn> and without reviewing the nogo code himself, he certainly won't
21:52:09 <Zuu> and it still only affects the server, not the clients (other than them loosing their game)
21:52:11 <Yexo> krinn: his server crashes: crashlog point to NoGo code: don't use the last-most script anymore
21:52:29 <dihedral> and then then players stop playing there too
21:53:10 <Yexo> a few reports in the forum about one particular NoGo script: somebody will investigate and might find the cause
21:53:13 <dihedral> + a dozen of open threads in the forums and bug reports until the message spreads
21:53:51 <krinn> well really few bug report as it need a trigger the maker only knows
21:54:04 * dihedral is of to bed, good night gents
21:54:12 <dihedral> ... Yexo this is getting scary
21:54:16 <krinn> you might see "i have thebug v 1" too in my server and it is runing it for 3 month without crashing...
22:03:34 * andythenorth is quitting whilst winning
22:03:49 <andythenorth> otherwise I get no sleep :P
22:06:19 <krinn> going too, good night all
22:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: need tank wagons? <-- plenty :)
22:08:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: might be able to help with that...
22:10:49 <andythenorth> but first....sleeping :)
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continue to next day ⏵
