IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-19
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00:14:54 <Zuu> Note to self: test library code before uploading to banans :-)
00:16:39 <Zuu> Ironically, I have added more sub libraries to the NoGo edition of SuperLib which hasn't had very much testing in NoGo context. Though by doing so it will make it easier for me and others to test and see what works and what doesn't. :-)
00:16:45 <xiong> Well. I'm quite certain the center tile of a 3x3 block is reluctant to build. I've definitely observed backsliding, too; where after the center builds and I remove the access road, later the center becomes grass again. This happens even in the central 16 blocks of a town now at pop. > 80,000. This just doesn't seem right. I've seen a house build as far as 3 tiles from any road.
00:42:23 <Zuu> Looks like chapter_ships.nut has became 100 lines shorter now. :-)
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01:50:04 <scottbob9> Hi, i am running openttd dedicated server and cannot get shares to work. I have edited the openttd.cfg file and it still does not work. any ideas?
02:09:36 <Stimrol_> hello, do anyone know what happened to this setting in openttd.cfg, why is it not longer there 1.1.5 --> [station] nonuniform_stations
02:15:18 <Stimrol_> ahh found it, google my friend, added forum to the search then I found it
02:15:19 <Stimrol_> - Remove: The non-uniform stations setting; it has been broken for over a year, and thus not used [FS#4456] (r21953)
02:15:36 <Stimrol_> Sad that this do not work :(
02:16:01 * appe breaks the somewhat autism-induced discussions with a great gift of poop to everyone.
02:17:14 <appe> right there, on the floor
02:17:23 <appe> now build train tracks around it.
02:19:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Build pointless tracks around it? What do you think this is, minecraft?
02:20:19 <appe> my stool deserves nothing more then being turned into efficient energy
02:20:31 <appe> wich would require proper logistics
02:20:57 <Rhamphoryncus> That sounds like a different industry set
02:21:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Featuring: the product of appe's asshole.
02:22:34 <appe> since my gastronomical features is somewhat swedish, id guess we have to set the proper logistics to mineral wagons.
02:23:01 <appe> in goes beer and coal, and out goes liberalism and swag.
02:23:15 <appe> preferably exported to citys.
02:23:52 <appe> bah, nuff' with the lame jokes.
02:24:30 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, I was bailing on that conversation. Cya
02:42:02 <Stimrol_> This was strange, all production of I think all mines for all users went down 50% for one or two years
02:42:38 *** Stimrol_ is now known as Stimrol
02:47:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Stimrol: economic downturn
02:49:00 <Stimrol> is that part of the programming that this happens or is this some bug?
02:50:13 <xiong> Stimrol, economic recession. Feature.
02:50:33 <xiong> All production cut in half.
02:51:36 <Stimrol> okey, random thing I like that, but I cant find anything about in settings
02:52:10 <xiong> Not an Advanced Setting. A Difficulty setting.
02:52:30 <Stimrol> ahh nice, I like this
02:52:56 <Stimrol> Did not find it on google because I didn't know the word for it
02:52:57 <xiong> Join the club. I've occasionally thrashed around for half an hour looking for an Advanced Setting before I remembered to check Difficulty instead.
02:53:43 <xiong> I've demonstrated that the rate of backsliding is higher than the rate of fill-in. I say 3x3 is broken.
02:53:50 <Stimrol> thank you, happy I found this irc channel, good if you have some wondering
02:54:26 <xiong> Do I file a but against the game itself or against the town set? Does town set affect building at all? Should I run a test game with no NewGRFs?
02:55:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Stimrol: it does actually tell you when a recession starts, but I've missed it too
02:56:30 <Stimrol> xiong what is this, are you asking me because of my question?
02:59:53 <xiong> Stimrol, my question is totally unrelated to your question, sorry.
03:00:31 <xiong> For a couple of weeks now, I've been trying to understand why the center tile of a so-called 3x3 grid block rarely builds. I'm now convinced it's just not right.
03:01:22 <xiong> I've upgraded, tested, tried temporary access roads. Nothing works -- that is, no strategy overcomes the rate of backsliding, where a formerly built center tile returns to grass.
03:02:13 <Stimrol> a same here 3x4 two middle is missing, i have some newgrfs
03:04:59 <Stimrol> I think Nars change my houses, think that is the only grf that affected my houses
03:13:08 <xiong> 3x4 definitely is not worth anything; you pay every possible price.
03:16:11 <xiong> 3x4 block is really 4x5 grid; that's 8 road tiles for 12 buildable tiles, except two won't build; so you end up with 10 tiles built, for an efficiency of 50%. That's exactly what you get with 3x3, with the center unbuilt. Also you have the inconvenience of a different repetition X and Y.
03:18:23 <xiong> I've seen a few cities laid out with very long 2xN sections. This approaches 67% efficiency.
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03:19:43 <xiong> Of course, then you have the question of how your road vehicles get around. I like roads every 4 tiles; it's easy to lay out, it's sane, sensible, looks reasonable. If only it worked....
03:21:43 <Stimrol> but it doesn't and gives you blank middle :(
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05:38:55 <Rhamphoryncus> that's.. not.. good. Testing out my timetable patch with a pax game and a couple years in what do I do? Give all my trains a conditional order jump to control maintenance.
05:41:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Maybe a way to control what orders are timetabled.. or a way to have sub-routes.
05:41:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Something to sleep on.
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07:13:07 * andythenorth needs a list to return in a predictable order
07:13:24 * andythenorth needs a dict to return in a predictable order
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08:06:59 <andythenorth> my png names are getting insanely long
08:07:01 <andythenorth> 7_8_tipping_trailer_drawbar_cc1_IORE.png
08:09:41 <Pulec> damn i have to set longer timeout, this server falls frequently
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08:17:17 <Rubidium> Pulec: you setting longer timeouts won't help; you're disconnected from the IRC server's side
08:18:36 <Pulec> it didnt disconnected me before
08:18:58 <Pulec> I had set timeout for about 6 minutes
08:22:52 <Rubidium> well, you're very regularly "ping timeout"-ing
08:23:14 <Rubidium> and generally if a connection isn't back after a minute, it's lost
08:26:20 <andythenorth> I'm passing an object to a function defined on a child object of the object
08:26:39 <andythenorth> so effectively I'm passing the object back into itself in some insane recursive fashion :P
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10:12:13 <planetmaker> btw, 1st round of votes for the title game is up now :-)
10:12:29 <planetmaker> IMHO average quality of submissions is better than last year :-)
10:12:34 <planetmaker> hi Terkhen & alberth
10:12:53 * Terkhen will check it this later :)
10:13:14 <Alberth> so many things to do, so little time :p
10:40:00 <Alberth> Pulec: could you please fix your connection?
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10:46:27 <Pulec> I am sorry, will try it soon as possible, just finnish some long download
10:46:41 <Pulec> for the time being I will quit reconecting
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10:56:16 <Zuu> planetmaker: Oh, you made me think that you had presented the results of round1. :-)
10:56:31 <planetmaker> Zuu: sorry, not yet :-)
10:56:45 <planetmaker> and I'm afraid I think I shouldn't even comment on the current standings
10:56:48 <Zuu> I see that voting ends 29 feb.
10:57:07 <planetmaker> yeah. Same schedule as last year basically
10:57:19 <planetmaker> 14 days for this round for people to make up their mind
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12:05:54 <FLHerne> Auto-generated ships?
12:10:34 <FLHerne> erm...something even stranger then?
12:10:37 <andythenorth> could draw the stern / prow, then generate the middle part of the hull
12:12:32 <andythenorth> someone showed me minecraft (again) the other day btw
12:12:45 <andythenorth> probably best I don't look too closely at minecraft
12:12:49 <andythenorth> looks like it could....suck time
12:13:38 <LordAro> i would second that comment
12:13:50 <FLHerne> I spent quite some time building a fax machine out of m^3 blocks...
12:15:32 <LordAro> TrueBrain: de.binaries.openttd.org appears to be non-functional
12:16:05 <orudge> It looks like a network issue; I can access it from another German server of mine, but that's with the same ISP
12:16:11 <orudge> can't access it from outside that network
12:16:21 <LordAro> FLHerne: i'm more interested in the redstone aspect myself
12:17:35 <LordAro> orudge: did i steal your bug report? :P
12:17:48 <FLHerne> It had a LOT of redstone. Encoded patterns made out of wool and transmitted as binary.
12:17:56 <orudge> LordAro: well, I reported it directly about two minutes before you :p
12:18:02 <orudge> but itw as only because of the guy in #tycoon that I noticed it
12:18:09 <FLHerne> Should provbably get back on topic though.
12:18:41 <LordAro> orudge: i saw that too :) but i guess you mesaged personally
12:20:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: the pixel generator is now in better shape....but I think it could be much cleaner
12:20:43 <andythenorth> the gestalt composes a lot of stuff which could be composed into objects provided by the pixa package
12:20:48 <Alberth> cleaning is a never-ending process :)
12:21:41 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how to approach it yet. I'm going to work on the custom gestalt stuff a bit more
12:22:11 <andythenorth> but it looks like the following could be classes: pixel, pixelsequence, colourset
12:22:21 <andythenorth> pixel is already done in a small standalone module
12:22:27 <Alberth> yeah, that's where it is going to break so you want to make sure that one works at least
12:22:43 <Alberth> oh, that's what P means :D
12:22:51 <andythenorth> I'm trying to figure out how this could be packaged so I or others can reuse it in other sets
12:22:59 <andythenorth> I don't want to be enslaved by copy-paste :P
12:23:06 <andythenorth> I need it for FISH ;)
12:23:14 <andythenorth> and HEQS...and ...
12:24:07 <Alberth> (yet another great andythenorth newgrf) :)
12:24:29 <andythenorth> yay, I guessed correctly :)
12:24:44 <Alberth> bummer, it was too easy thus :)
12:27:27 <Alberth> In general, you only find flaws in the design by using it. Make it nice, and start deploying. When finding flaws, don't give in to hacky solutions but make a proper solution instead.
12:28:51 <andythenorth> my code is clunky right now
12:29:10 <andythenorth> but can be cleaned
12:29:42 <andythenorth> I've got a lot of function calls like foo(offset=offset, load=load)
12:29:56 <andythenorth> which could probably drop the keywords, but I like keywords :P
12:30:10 <andythenorth> otherwise it's a lot of hunting for what parameters mean
12:33:07 <Alberth> that's why you give variables a good name ;)
12:33:57 <Alberth> imho 'offset' and 'load' are too generic, but that's perhaps my lack of domain knowledge
12:34:13 <andythenorth> they were made up examples in this case, but close...
12:37:28 <Mazur> Are the recycling industries supposed to be functional in the current version?
12:38:41 <Mazur> OTTD 1.2.0-beta4 with FIRS 0.7.0M
12:39:16 <Alberth> how are they non-functional?
12:39:30 <andythenorth> Mazur: what date in game?
12:39:39 <Mazur> Someone is dropping engineering supplies in the recycling depot, and nothing happens.
12:40:07 <andythenorth> Mazur: they're not supposed to accept ENSP - it's a bug ;)
12:40:12 * andythenorth checks the tickets
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12:40:29 <Mazur> Stable Server if you want to look.
12:40:43 <andythenorth> resolved, but not released (nightly build has it)
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16:39:46 <andythenorth> industry sprites could be pre-composited
16:40:37 <andythenorth> making the tile action 2s simpler
16:41:08 <andythenorth> seems a little regressive though
16:47:30 <andythenorth> currently industry tiles are composed with multiple sprites in varaction 2 (simple, extended or advanced)
16:47:59 <andythenorth> advanced layouts where multiple buildings, trucks etc are drawn could be simplified
16:48:10 <andythenorth> by compositing them into one png automatically
16:48:20 <andythenorth> then inserting that png as 'building'
16:48:48 <andythenorth> this possibly isn't better...or wise
16:52:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: I've never subclassed anything in python, but it seems like each gestalt might benefit from subclassing a generic gestalt class....
16:52:42 <andythenorth> does that sound in any way wise?
16:54:42 <Alberth> your timing for needing me is pretty good btw; my highlighting is not working atm if I am at another desktop, but you seem to ask me a question just before I look again :)
17:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... ÖBB is lacking one or two diesel engine generations in the 1980s and 1990s... but i guess we already know that problem from DB...
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17:36:03 <andythenorth> what I need to do is pass pixel sequences as fully-fledged objects to the pixa renderer, instead of iterables
17:36:21 <andythenorth> then I can provide methods to handle things like randomisation
17:36:35 * andythenorth has reinvented Kai's power tools :P
17:38:54 <Pixa> This ingenious and inspired name sure is going to get annoying...
17:41:33 <andythenorth> I blame Rubidium
17:41:36 <andythenorth> it's Rubidium's fault
17:41:41 <andythenorth> it was all Rubidium
17:42:02 * andythenorth will highlight Rubidium often to make up for spurious pixa highlights
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17:43:19 <Pixa> We could always just have a lengthy discussion about examples of highly reactive group 1 metals...
17:43:27 <Pixa> of which Rubidium happens to be one
17:45:42 <andythenorth> or I could rename the module to pixa renderer
17:45:50 <andythenorth> which is problematic
17:47:20 <Pixa> I'm honoured that a package in OTTD was named after a lurker on the IRC channel with a particularly unreliable internet connection
17:47:24 * andythenorth will try another gestalt
17:47:29 <andythenorth> box trailer is...too easy :P
17:47:40 <andythenorth> maybe a flat trailer with load sprites
17:47:47 <andythenorth> that will demand compositing
17:50:42 * andythenorth thinks generating lots of spritesheets might be slow
17:53:20 <Alberth> you cannot draw that fast :)
17:54:38 <andythenorth> ~30 cargos, 6 body styles, 2 trailer types, 4 lengths
17:54:47 <andythenorth> @calc 30 * 6 * 2 * 4
17:55:27 * andythenorth wonders about a dep check
17:57:47 <andythenorth> some interesting effects could be achieved by accident
17:57:52 <andythenorth> 'cut away' anyone? :P
17:58:25 <andythenorth> ^ reveals how I'm cheating with the loads :)
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18:23:00 <LordAro> TrueBrain: sortable wikitables seem to be broken (wiki.openttd.org)
18:34:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23965 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix [FS#5070]: Refittability should never depend on the current capacity of a vehicle.
18:39:16 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: they can look better if they're bulging out the top slightly
18:39:27 <Rhamphoryncus> and do you have wood yet?
18:39:51 <Alberth> and steel and batteries :p
18:49:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23966 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs):
18:49:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:49:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 47 changes by Parastais
18:49:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 56 changes by Stabilitronas
18:49:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 9 changes by Terkhen
18:49:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 6 changes by Zuu
18:49:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: urdu - 95 changes by haider
19:05:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23967 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix-ish: don't fix road ownership of standard road stops each time you load a savegame, only when loading an old one
19:07:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23968 /branches/1.2/: [1.2] -Branch: there we go...
19:08:37 <Alberth> 2 of your patches rolling into the real world :)
19:08:46 <LordAro> Rubidium: is r23967 correct?
19:09:16 <frosch123> LordAro: oh, btw. basesets should also be able to show readme and licence and stuff ^^
19:11:52 <frosch123> you mean if the world ends in 2012, it would never make it into a stable? :p
19:12:44 <frosch123> maybe you should ask a priest of you religion, whether they play trunk in heaven :p
19:13:17 <LordAro> i'll just go and do that :)
19:14:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23969 /trunk/ (10 files in 8 dirs): -Codechange: trunk heads to 1.3 now
19:18:09 <LordAro> ha, i just loaded that webpage of the branch diff :)
19:18:43 <frosch123> yeah, rb always does those big commits without splitting
19:20:28 <Rubidium> what splitting? Nothing got changed. The diff is just empty
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19:26:05 <frosch123> i could now make a comparison to a certain german nobleman, but most here would probably not get it
19:26:13 <Zuu> frosch123: yea readmes for basesets and libraries :-)
19:26:32 <Zuu> More readmes to the people :-)
19:26:59 <frosch123> readmes are not exactly visible in any gui but the content download
19:27:23 <frosch123> but yes, maybe the content gui should also get those buttons
19:28:55 <Zuu> viewing offline readmes in the online content download gui?
19:29:09 <frosch123> yeah, only from downloaded stuff
19:29:26 <frosch123> [20:26] <frosch123> readmes are not exactly visible in any gui but the content download <- s/readmes/libraries/
19:30:46 <Zuu> That said, if you are going to use a library you will probably still have to untar it and look at the public functions unless you doument the entire library API in the readme.
19:31:12 <Zuu> A readme would instead be a way to describe the library in more than 500 characters.
19:31:22 <LordAro> imo, libraries are for developers only, therefore are not needed for the 'end-user'
19:32:00 <Alberth> Zuu: doesn't squirrel have some standard documentation system, like eg doxygen ?
19:32:29 <Zuu> Alberth: Not that I'm aware of. At least I don't use any standard documentation system in my code.
19:32:55 <Zuu> Other than some occianaly ideas to follow some standard :-)
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19:34:05 <Alberth> in my view, that would give you much more room to document things
19:36:43 <Rubidium> use something doxygeny and make a nice API website for each of the libraries
19:36:53 <Rubidium> preferably keeping api versions of the different releases
19:40:09 <Zuu> that would be nice. Though I don't think I will spend my time on doing that for eg. SuperLib. The current situation is not that bad. And I agree with LordAro that libraries doesn't need to have readmes visible in the game. Developers should know how to open a tar file. :-)
19:40:47 <Rubidium> any decent OS does that transparantly ;)
19:41:08 <Rubidium> reminds me of something
19:41:17 <Zuu> SuperLib have some sort of documentation of each class at the top of each file.
19:53:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23970 /branches/1.2/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Prepare: 1.2.0-RC1
20:08:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23971 /tags/1.2.0-RC1/: -Release: 1.2.0-RC1; tag you're it!
20:08:44 <Rubidium> there LordAro... another massive unsplit diff ;)
20:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... looks like it's going to be Gauck then...
20:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Gauck was already the opposition candidate in the last election
20:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which also got quite some votes from the government fractions
20:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and had the backing of the majority of the population
20:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but the president is not elected directly, so that doesn't mean much
20:21:50 *** SpComb^_ is now known as SpComb^
20:23:14 <planetmaker> his biggest "credit" is that he lead the "Stasi"-administration which deals with the investigation of the secret internal police of the GDR
20:23:33 <planetmaker> and that he was a civil rights advocate in the GDR afair
20:24:00 <Rubidium> but he'd be basically only cutting ribbons, wouldn't he?
20:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> he'd be "representing" and "being a role model"
20:24:39 <frosch123> yes, but he should not steal the golden scissor while doing so :p
20:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> he's made some controversial comments in the past two years, and he's rather old. that's basically the criticism i heard so far
20:26:43 <Rubidium> isn't that called "experience"?
20:28:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the Dutch and English equivalent-ish of your president are older, so he's not that old ;)
20:28:31 <supermop> oh yeah, your president resigned, right?
20:29:13 <Rubidium> and the one of Belgium's older as well
20:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> he already "got resigned" two months ago, he just took quite long to realize it :p
20:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but those are not elected people
20:30:12 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: as if your one is elected... it's rather "lobbied" I'd say
20:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> however undemocratic the election is...
20:30:30 <frosch123> supermop: he resigned just before the parliament had to decide about nullify his immunity
20:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have done something like with the mayor of duisburg
20:31:26 <supermop> only loosely been following it - i am way behind on my news
20:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the first mayor to be evicted from office through an out-of-schedule election
20:32:34 <supermop> we call those recall elections here
20:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it took them like two years to pull that off
20:35:48 *** SpBot_ is now known as SpBot
20:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the next open discussion is whether the not-anymore-president should get the 200.000€ per year "pension" for being just 1.5 years in office
20:38:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, it is unlikely that he ends up in jail for more than 1 year; so that discussion is needed :p
20:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the law says he should get it for finishing a full (5 year) term, or for resigning out of political or health reasons before that
20:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the argument is that he resigned for personal reasons
20:41:03 <SpComb> what's resigning for a political reason?
20:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> all previous presidents finished at least one full term, so the discussion never came up before
20:41:57 <Rubidium> just find a nutjob and you don't need to do the whole discussion
20:42:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did köhler finish a term?
20:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> he was like a year into his second term when he resigned
20:43:26 <frosch123> hmm, then i somehow did not notice his reellection
20:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i guess when he resigns because veto-ing a law doesn't make enough of an impact, or something like that
20:44:26 *** LordPixaII has joined #openttd
20:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it was one of those "nobody really cares" things
20:44:42 <SpComb> right, so he should have raised some arbitrary political issue, and then resigned :)
20:45:09 <Rubidium> did Wulff maybe screw you by signing acta before resigning?
20:45:27 <Rubidium> or can't he do that?
20:45:50 <Rubidium> it'd be a big "fuck you" statement to everyone trying to get rid of him
20:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the president can't really do anything if the government doesn't tell him to
20:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not an expert
20:49:24 <SpComb> Finland used to have a President that ran the government
20:49:38 <SpComb> it was scary times when we had the Soviet Union as a neighbour
20:56:41 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: a law won't become effective if not signed by the president. And he's got the right to check the laws for conformity with the constitution
20:57:41 <planetmaker> iirc Köhler kinda at least delayed some laws quite a lot by that. Or even kinda stopped it, like the insane anti-terrorist law Schäuble devised which would have allowed to shoot down passenger planes just because there's a terrorist in it who hijacked it successfully
20:58:14 <frosch123> planetmaker: he can forward laws to the consitutional court before signing them
20:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the plane-hijacking law is the only law that got vetoed in the last 20-ish years
20:59:27 <Eddi|zuHause> another one was pushed back: the internet-censorship law, but it was eventually signed (even though it was already clear that it was not to be enforced)
21:04:37 <LordAro> can i just confirm: the old way of loading 32bpp sprites has been removed entirely, yes?
21:05:49 <michi_cc> @openttd commit 23898
21:05:49 <DorpsGek> michi_cc: Commit by michi_cc :: r23898 /trunk (8 files in 4 dirs) (2012-02-04 22:19:02 UTC)
21:05:50 <DorpsGek> michi_cc: -Remove: PNG sprite loader.
21:06:17 <LordAro> Jupix was a little put out about it
21:06:23 <LordAro> understandable really
21:07:02 <Rubidium> he had to redo everything anyhow
21:08:07 <LordAro> i guess, but until that is done, there is no way of loading 32bpp sprites at all
21:09:17 <michi_cc> Consider it an incentive *evil grin*
21:11:13 <Rubidium> LordAro: you have to use the ancient patched version anyhow for his sprites
21:12:00 <michi_cc> I guess they'd at least need some retouch for the recolouring.
21:12:02 <LordAro> Rubidium: not for normal zoom
21:18:16 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
21:22:51 <LordAro> also, there is no news/forum post about the RC1
21:25:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: You can blame me if you'll review my patch ;) (which I haven't posted yet.)
21:25:15 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC1
21:25:15 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
21:25:41 <Rubidium> though one part is one of the mirrors being horrendously slow
21:25:51 <Rubidium> almost took longer to push the binaries than to build them
21:26:02 <Rubidium> so it actually just finished building
21:26:22 <Rubidium> besides that there are some other dependencies not quite reading for the news messages
21:28:09 <Rhamphoryncus> appe: never gets old
21:28:26 *** lmergen has joined #openttd
21:28:31 <appe> fun thing with george is that he is personally very active on the intarwebz
21:28:43 <appe> that is, no agents or shit in between, but george and his opinions
21:34:57 * LordAro dutifully adds RC1 to the wiki page
21:38:14 <Rhamphoryncus> How long is the release cycle usually?
21:39:40 <LordAro> (in other words, expect a stable release on 1 April)
21:39:51 <Terkhen> I did not say that :)
21:40:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Well gee, that's predictable ;)
21:41:13 <Rubidium> until we screw you over and really make a special April fools release ;)
21:50:15 <LordAro> still should've done that for 1.0
21:50:27 <LordAro> then just released it proper a couple months later :)
21:52:48 <andythenorth> compositing load sprites can wait until tomorrow
21:52:56 <andythenorth> I need to learn how PIL uses masks / alpha
21:53:05 * Rhamphoryncus votes against bed, just to be difficult
21:53:39 <Rhamphoryncus> You're not anti-democratic, are you?
21:53:59 <Rhamphoryncus> Republican and/or Democrat!
21:54:50 * andythenorth favours 'one man, one vote'
21:55:07 * Rhamphoryncus incites the senate against you
21:55:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: sounds ancient greekish
21:56:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am the one man, I have the one vote :)
21:57:38 * Rhamphoryncus disconnects neo's virtual boy so he can't pretend to fly anymore.
21:59:29 * andythenorth wonders if androids dream of electric pixel generators
22:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the spartans actually had two kings
22:01:59 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: would that make you an android?
22:02:26 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: would I know if I was?
22:03:51 * andythenorth -> bed. good night
22:03:51 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm too lazy to put together a clever reply
22:11:02 <Nat_as> what resolution are TTD sprites?
22:11:33 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
22:11:37 <planetmaker> depends on the zoom level then
22:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 64px from left corner to right corner
22:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 32px from top corner to bottom corner
22:12:03 <Nat_as> ahh that's what I thought
22:12:36 <Nat_as> yeah 32 from top to bottom because isometric
22:13:03 <planetmaker> it's actually dimetric. not isometric
22:13:04 <Nat_as> but things will probably be taller than that because most objects extend up out of there grid square.
22:13:29 <Nat_as> I do remember there being some diffrence between OTTD and Simutrans sprites
22:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but more like 26.5°
22:13:44 <Nat_as> so how does that effect the whole vanishing point thing?
22:14:03 <Nat_as> I thought Isometric just meant that parallel lines never meet?
22:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no vanishing point, it's a parallel projection
22:14:46 <Nat_as> when looking at the sprites, it seems straight lines have the same 1 up to across pixel angle.
22:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, hence arctan(1/2)
22:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but isometry defines the angle as arcsin(1/2)
22:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> which this is not
22:17:08 <Nat_as> grid squares are twice as wide as they are tall right?
22:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "parallel projection" means parallel lines in the original are also parallel in the projection
22:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "isometry" is a special parallel projection, with a defined angle
22:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> our angle differs from the one defined for "isometry", so ours is not "isometry"
22:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the difficulty?
22:18:48 <Nat_as> because I've always called thoes isometric
22:18:53 <Nat_as> am I using the wrong word?
22:18:59 <Nat_as> or is OTTD somehow diffrent?
22:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it's very common to use "isometry" loosely for all those games, but technically it's not correct
22:19:55 <Nat_as> I thought I was triping
22:20:43 <Nat_as> it's probably my favorite format
22:21:01 <Nat_as> I love building and Turn based strategy games that use it.
22:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> also technically, "dimetric" isn't correct either
22:21:54 <Nat_as> what should it be called then?
22:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the right generalisation is "axonometric"
22:24:13 <Rhamphoryncus> I wonder where in history that confusion was made
22:24:49 <Nat_as> wikipedia seems to say Axomomentic is a general term for 3d to 2d, and that isometric refers to this specific angle
22:26:42 <Rhamphoryncus> isometric = all dimensions the same, dimetric = two dimensions the same, trimetric = none of the dimensions the same
22:26:54 <Nat_as> so is OTTD 120 or 105 deg?
22:28:58 <michi_cc> OpenTTD is dimetric, but there's more than one possible dimetric projection.
22:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 180/pi*atan(1/2)+90
22:29:30 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 116.565051177
22:29:33 <michi_cc> Dimetric only means that two of the three angles are identical, not that they are exactly 105°.
22:30:20 <michi_cc> SimCity 4 for example is trimetric, but doesn't use the angles from the wikipedia image either.
22:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: at least the german wikipedia uses the term very different
22:30:40 <Rhamphoryncus> so 116.6°, 116.6°, 126.9°
22:30:57 <Nat_as> so will making all lines use 1 pixel up 2 pixels across look strange?
22:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: well, it does have to add up to 360° :p
22:31:39 <Nat_as> for lines parallel to the ground and aligned with the grid that is.
22:31:51 <Nat_as> the grid squares are twice as high as they are wide?
22:32:03 <Rhamphoryncus> pbbbt: 180 − (360 ⋅ atan(0.5)) ∕ π
22:32:17 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure you can find other dimensions for dimetric, but the one according to DIN 5 was probably the only not deleted for "no verifiable source".
22:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: that's the beauty of the arctan(1/2) angle, it fits exactly in the pixel raster
22:32:39 <Nat_as> I thought that was isometric.
22:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> isometry is older than humans thinking in pixels :p
22:33:00 <Nat_as> it's the most convenient for pixel artists though.
22:33:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: Until this conversation I thought it was isometric too. I've even used it in my own stuff
22:33:49 <michi_cc> "commonly, the form of dimetric projection mistakenly referred to as 'isometric'"'
22:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: "it's on wikipedia, it must be right" :p
22:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: who says that this phrase isn't actually the "common mistake"?
22:34:43 <Nat_as> I believe you guys now.
22:34:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Basically, if you have a cube/box and you use isometric then the forward and backward corners will line up *perfectly*
22:35:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Which they almost never do in games
22:35:27 <michi_cc> Thankfully, mathematics are around longer then wikipedia :p
22:36:55 <Nat_as> so in other words don't fret over the actual degrees and just use the 1:2 pixels as your ruler.
22:37:06 <Nat_as> because otherwise you will be caught up in decimels.
22:38:15 <Nat_as> (which means reduced by a factor of 10)
22:38:17 <Rhamphoryncus> The pixels are likely the original source anyway
22:38:38 <Nat_as> (if there is any more or less left over then they have not been decimated)
22:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they were heximated?
22:40:18 * Rhamphoryncus decimates 89.9% of Nat_as
22:41:56 * Nat_as prefers to centimate his enemies.
22:43:03 <Nat_as> Why aren't decimetres a thing?
22:43:10 <Nat_as> it just skips to centi.
22:43:26 <Rhamphoryncus> umm, decimeters ARE a thing
22:43:35 <FLHerne> Chemistry seems to use dm^3 quite a lot
22:43:58 <Nat_as> they aren't as popular as there imperial analogue though.
22:44:04 <Nat_as> Imperial has inches feet and yards.
22:44:13 <Nat_as> but Metric most of the time jumps from M to CM
22:45:37 <FLHerne> It's a bit pointless, litres are easier to pronounce :D
22:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> my physics teacher once scolded me for using dN
22:45:47 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: I was taught dm is school but it's NEVER used
22:45:52 <Rhamphoryncus> cm is more practical
22:46:01 <Nat_as> I'm not saying they DON'T exist, that's one of the benefits of metric is the orders of magnitude are implied rather than arbitrarily decided, but why leave out a useful increment?
22:46:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: it's not useful
22:46:26 <FLHerne> dm would be useful for a lot of things actually
22:46:31 <Nat_as> that seems like saying feet aren't usefull because inches and yards exist
22:46:43 <valhallasw> FLHerne: the reason is because you can easily use fractions in the metric system
22:46:48 <Rhamphoryncus> In fact cm is only borderline. Using only m and mm reduces the number of conversions you need
22:46:49 <valhallasw> i.e. 1.2m makes sense
22:47:13 <valhallasw> the only reason feet are used is as N yards M feet X inches
22:47:28 <Rhamphoryncus> 1.2m = 12 dm = 120 cm = 1200 mm. It's pointless.
22:47:36 <FLHerne> True, but a mm is only 0.1 cm
22:47:43 <Nat_as> the only advantage of Imperial is that it's measurements are at scales useful to most human activities as opposed to mathematically defined.
22:48:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Eventually you do gain by having different units, but the strong trend there is multiples of 3
22:48:36 <FLHerne> So why bother with cm, we could stick to multiples of 3...
22:48:37 <planetmaker> how's a yard more usefule than a metre, an inch better than a cm?
22:48:56 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: exactly
22:49:06 <FLHerne> Inches are a good size to measure common objects actually
22:49:10 <Nat_as> but MM are useless to most people
22:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: your argument is very weak
22:49:27 <Nat_as> and miles are 'bigger' than Kilometres.
22:49:39 <Rhamphoryncus> of hecto/deca/deci/centi, the only one that gets any use is centimetre.
22:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> our miles are way bigger than yours
22:49:50 <FLHerne> 5.5 feet is easier than 165cm
22:49:58 <Rubidium> Nat_as: so are thous
22:50:02 <FLHerne> That's why dm would be good
22:50:03 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: 1.65 m
22:50:11 <valhallasw> FLHerne: no. that's just your upbringing.
22:50:20 <Nat_as> I always thought measuring height in CM was strange
22:50:34 <Nat_as> I'd rather get height in feet or meters than inches or CM
22:50:39 <FLHerne> Not so sure, I was brought up using mainly metric
22:50:44 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: that's quite a bold and imho quite wrong statement wrt unit-prefixes
22:51:06 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: *shrug* It's my experience
22:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: the use of prefixes heavily depends on context
22:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hecto is quite oftenly used with areas
22:51:26 <FLHerne> I just find km and cm a bit too small for some purposes, because you need larger numbers
22:51:27 <TWerkhoven[l]> hecta gets a lot of use in land-area for instance
22:51:35 <Rubidium> FLHerne: but now you're tring to determine the height difference between 5.5 feet and 4.9 feet ;)
22:51:43 <planetmaker> especially when 1 Giga-Angstrom equals exactly 1dm ;-)
22:52:05 * appe distrupts the magical spells of downs syndrome induced railway code discussions with recommending the film 50/50.
22:52:06 <Nat_as> if you need more than two digets to measure something with minimal variation, you are using the wrong measuring stick.
22:52:29 <Nat_as> Feet and meters are better than inches and cm for measuring height.
22:52:40 <FLHerne> It's about half a foot
22:52:52 <FLHerne> Which is accurate enough for most things
22:53:11 <Rhamphoryncus> appe: downs syndrome? I thought we all had aspergers?
22:53:23 <FLHerne> Thinking of units, why are model railway scales in mm/foot?
22:53:31 <Nat_as> 5 ft 6 inches or 1.6 metres instead of 66 inches or 167 cm
22:53:42 <appe> Rhamphoryncus: this is irc. sickness is always downs or cholera.
22:53:52 <Nat_as> Really? they mix systems like that?
22:53:58 <Nat_as> Probably because MM are really tiny
22:54:05 <Nat_as> one thing imperial does badly is minitures.
22:54:14 <Nat_as> anything smaller than an inch it breaks down.
22:54:22 <Rubidium> Nat_as: there are thous
22:54:33 <Rubidium> and 1000 thous are an inch
22:54:53 <Nat_as> never heard of thoes ever.
22:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: but 167cm avoids the use of fractions
22:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> with an accuracy that is "good enough" for the average human (without a ruler)
22:55:56 <Nat_as> well 1 meter 67 cm looks more elegant than 167 cm, even though it's more words.
22:56:10 <valhallasw> 1.67m looks even better
22:56:27 <Nat_as> google tells me that Thous are a real thing and you did not make that up
22:56:32 <Nat_as> not sure why they aren't used.
22:56:42 <Nat_as> i guess if people want accuracy they switch to metric
22:57:03 <Nat_as> even in America which supposedly hates metric, uses it all the time for professional things.
22:57:13 <Nat_as> we just reserve imperial for casual use.
22:57:14 <valhallasw> yeah, except the rocket propulsion guys
22:57:21 <planetmaker> Nat_as: and what pressure do you have if you put one stone on a square foot?
22:57:30 <planetmaker> given that pressure usually is in pounds per square inch?
22:58:00 <Nat_as> yeah PSI is another scientific measure that uses imperial.
22:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> every time i read "square foot" i must immediately think "Quadratlatschen" :p
22:58:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't use square foot or square inch, but the proper units for areas: perches, roods and acres
22:58:11 <planetmaker> it's not "scientific" :-P
22:58:38 <planetmaker> at best it's an engineering unit.
22:58:46 <appe> what do you guys think of the latest CERN results?
22:58:50 <valhallasw> planetmaker: then again, how many Oersted in one Tesla?
22:58:54 <Nat_as> yeah but engineers use metric often.
22:59:09 <valhallasw> sorry, Oersted per A/m
22:59:09 <Nat_as> i guess it depends on the job
22:59:13 <planetmaker> valhallasw: I can tell you that there are 10**4 Gauss in a Tesla :-P
22:59:17 <FLHerne> For some reason, my normal unit scale seems to be mm, cm, feet, metres, miles...quite mixed really. I just use units which I think are a good size
22:59:36 <Nat_as> I like how a meter and a yard are almost equivlent
22:59:42 <Nat_as> as is a tone and a tonne
22:59:59 <planetmaker> by the same means a Euro is a USD
23:00:02 <Nat_as> imperial ton vs metric tonne
23:00:07 <appe> i was born in the eighties.
23:00:12 <Nat_as> sure I'd kill somebody as an engineer like that.
23:00:13 <appe> for me, gauss was never a unit
23:00:13 <planetmaker> same accuracy. But I'd not trade 1:1 with you, I'm afraid
23:00:19 <valhallasw> planetmaker: as you probably know, cgs electromagnetism doesn't fiddle around with epsilon-0 and mu-0 but rather with a bunch of pi's and c's
23:00:26 <Nat_as> but it's nice to play with.
23:00:30 <appe> for me, gauss was the beginning of a word, turning into the greatest weapon in history.
23:00:32 <valhallasw> planetmaker: so 1 Oe = 1000/(4 pi) A/m ;-)
23:00:50 <planetmaker> valhallasw: sure. But... I don't like cgs. I tend to avoid that by nearly all means
23:01:02 <planetmaker> though I see where it comes from and where it has uses
23:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the only times i use "non-metric" units is when i order "ein Pfund Hackepeter"... and even then it's a metrified pound
23:01:16 <Rubidium> luckily they redefined the length of a yard to be 0.9144 cm, instead of one with a gazilion decimals for accuracy
23:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (i don't commonly talk about horsepowers...)
23:01:44 <Nat_as> is a horsepower really one horse?
23:01:52 <__ln__> oh, the temperature outside is almost 493.5 degrees Rankine now.
23:01:54 <Nat_as> I mean even a shitty car has almost 100 of them
23:01:55 <planetmaker> no. It's a power unit :-P
23:02:04 <Rubidium> guess I ought to go to bed
23:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: a modern day racing horse typically has less than 1hp
23:02:19 <Nat_as> and I'm sure a hundred horses would be stronger than a civic.
23:02:46 <valhallasw> the hp was used to compare steam engines to horse-operated winches for mines, iirc
23:02:47 <planetmaker> Nat_as: there's a (big) difference in the continued power and the momentary power output of any living being
23:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: 1 hp was measured by taking an average 19th century working horse and have it go in circles for one hour
23:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: modern day racing horses are bread to have very short endurance
23:03:16 <Nat_as> so 50 horses could outpull a motorcycle with 100 hp
23:03:32 <planetmaker> they'd have more friction ;-)
23:03:42 <Nat_as> lol yes traction is the big thing
23:03:48 <Rubidium> but in the end the motorcycle will win as the horses get exhausted ;)
23:03:56 <Nat_as> Hmm, how are the horsedrawn carrages in the Heavy equipment set statted?
23:04:11 <Nat_as> do they have single diget HP values?
23:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> they were implemented before realistic acceleration
23:04:26 <Nat_as> actually cars don't HAVE hp values displayed
23:04:31 <Nat_as> just max speed and cargo.
23:04:47 <Nat_as> even though some of them are animated like trains, they are a single unit.
23:05:00 <Nat_as> it would be nice if you could buy trailers like trains though.
23:05:01 <planetmaker> Nat_as: then you don't play with realistic accel
23:06:59 <Nat_as> there needs to be a 1800s newgrif
23:07:28 <Nat_as> heck I'd just like to be able to start in 1900
23:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: anyway, the point is, you can't measure "horsepower" by having a rope pulling contest
23:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> because that doesn't measure the continuous power over an hour or more
23:08:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: I keep starting games in 1925 or 1930 and it's painful
23:08:57 <Nat_as> imagine a wild west newgrif with stagecoaches and steam trains
23:09:11 <Nat_as> can you newgrif disasters?
23:09:19 <Rhamphoryncus> The game speed needs to be scaled to make it playable
23:09:22 <Nat_as> like indians and bandits?
23:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the earliest "sane" rail newgrfs around are starting 1870-ish
23:09:57 <Nat_as> but we had trains before that right?
23:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that doesn't mean it creates sane gameplay
23:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. cargo and passenger production must be downscaled
23:11:56 <Nat_as> 1830 is when the first steam train happened.
23:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> actually both the first steam engine and the first railway were built in roman times, just nobody thought of combining both
23:12:46 <Rhamphoryncus> The station rating stuff can't handle such slow trains
23:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is actually that the station rating does a very poor job of balancing the production vs. the capacity
23:14:16 <Nat_as> station raiting is a bad mechanic anyways
23:16:15 <Nat_as> if it could be fixed, a 1850-1930 would be a nice niche to play in thought.
23:16:36 <Nat_as> esp if new disasters could be implemented like indians and bandits.
23:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS 0.7.x has an option to set station rating to 100%
23:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "UTF-8 encryption"
23:29:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what amuses me? for over two years they have been talking pretty much every week about "the coalition will break about decision X"... and it never happens...
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23:36:36 <Rhamphoryncus> "Who the heck uses implicit orders.. oh hey, there's one of my save games with implicit orders!"
23:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about greece...
23:40:32 <__ln__> i won't once they return to drakhma.
23:40:36 <Rhamphoryncus> I do see one advantage of implicit orders: they're grey rather than black.
23:41:19 <Nat_as> it would be nice if trains could try to avoid visiting stations they are not specificity sent to if possible.
23:41:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: non-stop
23:41:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Which can even be made the default for newly created orders
23:42:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: they do that
23:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: if there's a (not too long) path around the station, they take it
23:42:46 <Nat_as> well I have had times where trains have gone the whole other way to get somewhere and I could never figure out why
23:42:55 <Nat_as> even thought I double checked everything for blockages
23:43:05 <Nat_as> it seemed to me taking the wrong route just because it could.
23:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that has absolutely nothing to do with this, though
23:44:05 <DabuYu> Nat_as: a single wrongly placed signal can do that
23:44:12 <Rhamphoryncus> A savegame of that can be useful
23:44:13 <Nat_as> implicit orders are almost always a sign of something wrong for me thought
23:44:21 <Rhamphoryncus> Or a gap in the track
23:44:35 <Nat_as> yeah I checked for that, and could not find anything
23:44:38 <DabuYu> Rhamphoryncus: a gap is easier to spot, a signal not that easy
23:44:41 <Nat_as> I don't think I have that game either.
23:44:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, ditto. This game is the first one since I started playing again
23:44:48 <Nat_as> yeah I might have missed it.
23:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: so you'd likely never notice if they weren't there
23:44:57 <Rhamphoryncus> DabuYu: half tile, hidden by trees at the start of a bridge..
23:45:14 <Nat_as> but if there is implicit orders on my lists that means there is something wrong
23:45:29 <Nat_as> it would be cool if there was a way to check for implicit orders.
23:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> a gap in the tracks is very difficult to spot
23:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> missing trackbit on maglev
23:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or missing catenary
23:45:50 <Nat_as> it's hard to spot in junctions
23:46:07 <Nat_as> actual lines it's usualy more oubvious.
23:46:43 <DabuYu> actually, if train can figure out routes, isn't it possible to write a check-tool for what route a new train will take from one station to the other?
23:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's much more subtle pathfinder oddities that could make a train take a wrong path
23:48:01 <Nat_as> yeah that's hard to prove though
23:48:19 <Nat_as> tell people on irc your train is going the wrong way and they will tell you to check your signals aggain
23:48:31 <Nat_as> which is fustrating because at that point you probably already have twice.
23:48:41 <Nat_as> nobody ever assumes you already googled or read the manual.
23:49:26 <Nat_as> the worst thing ever is when you google a bug, and all you can find is a form post of somebody asking about the same bug, only to be answered by some jerk telling him to google it.
23:49:38 * Nat_as goes on another tangent.
23:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the most obscure one i've seen is trains running in circles when all platforms are full, but happily waiting if one platform is free
23:49:43 <DabuYu> Nat_as: you'll be surprised how many come here immediately with those questions without any checking
23:49:58 <Nat_as> yeah I don't say it does not happen.
23:50:09 <Nat_as> but people need to be more understanding.
23:50:34 <DabuYu> true - i know your frustation, i had that too - but then i keep on telling 'already checked that' etc etc
23:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and another one where trains are not taking the straight track, but only if a train is on a specific platform in a station across half the map
23:50:41 <DabuYu> and the bug report too, that's quite annoying
23:50:56 <Nat_as> the bug report is a bigger problem imo
23:51:21 <Nat_as> if I ran a form, telling people to google it would be a bannable offense.
23:51:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: Advanced/Vehicles/"New orders are 'non-stop' by default"
23:51:43 <Nat_as> anyways, I notice trucks seem to prefer making turns when possible
23:51:48 <Nat_as> even if it's not the best idea
23:51:59 <Nat_as> some crazy city layouts can send them in infinite loops.
23:52:17 <Nat_as> because they seem to think that because the desitnation is to the right of them, the next right turn must be the best option.
23:52:23 <Nat_as> only to be confronted with another turn
23:52:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Never seen that
23:52:28 <Nat_as> and they end up in circles
23:52:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Savegame next time you see it
23:52:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: really, check your road connections :p
23:52:54 <Nat_as> not sure if that's the quirk that causes it, but I have seen cities send trucks into loops
23:53:12 <Nat_as> the truck ended up in that side of the city in the first place so there must be a way out
23:53:17 <Nat_as> and I can see a way out
23:53:24 <Nat_as> but the truck would rather go in circles
23:53:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Again, savegame. There's no way to diagnose such a thing without the ability to reproduce.
23:54:42 <DabuYu> Nat_as: i've seen that in the original tt (maybe ttd)
23:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, original did that. but we now have a full pathfinder
23:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so if there's a way, it's guaranteed to be found
23:55:47 <DabuYu> yes, i have not seen it in openttd yet
23:56:54 <Rhamphoryncus> The first thing I'd check if I got such a savegame is what the pathfinder settings are
23:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (problem is, that may be a near-endless loop if there's no path, so some thresholds are in place to cancel the search)
23:57:46 <Nat_as> another problem is truck turning around
23:57:53 <Nat_as> but that is easy enough to fix
23:58:07 <Nat_as> I like trams because it FORCES you to take care of that.
23:58:51 <Nat_as> Hmm, if trams exist, why can't double track trains exist?
23:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> because of the map array, the construction method, and the movement pattern
23:59:41 <Nat_as> tams are trucks and drive on the side of a tile, trains can only move in the centre of a tile?
23:59:48 <Rhamphoryncus> IOW, it's baked in to the history of the game
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