IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-06
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00:02:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Anybody have a solution to that? It's rather problematic to me
00:09:08 <glx> Rhamphoryncus: 15 chars + hXXXXXXXX
00:09:30 <Rhamphoryncus> no, it blew up at me. It's just 15 chars
00:09:46 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm gonna hack the makefile to use RHA as the branch name for all my stuff
00:10:50 <Rhamphoryncus> make test is what failed btw. hg repository
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00:52:42 <supermop> what's with all of the hoops to jump through?
01:03:42 <michi_cc> Spam attack earlier today, maybe we can try without R again.
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01:04:50 <supermop> what is the monorail acceleration model?
01:05:27 <supermop> is it meant to mimic rubber tires on concrete or something?
01:06:40 <michi_cc> OpenTTD has no monorail acceleration model.
01:06:49 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o michi_cc
01:06:57 <supermop> can one specify one?
01:07:24 <supermop> or do monorails behave the same as regular trains?
01:11:28 <supermop> so realistic acceleration will not affect a monorail
01:15:27 <glx> michi_cc: no need to op yourself if you use the bot to change the mode
01:15:54 <michi_cc> Precaution. Who knows what's going to happen :)
01:28:01 <supermop> is the full zoom twice as big, or 4 times as big, as the old full zoom?
01:43:38 <supermop> is planet maker here?
01:43:57 <supermop> oops, planetmaker sorry
01:50:29 <__ln__> afaik planetmaker belongs to the minority that sleeps at night
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05:28:56 <DDR> So, I got a bit over a hundred years into my 400-year game, and then it hit me... building rails through this /mess/ of roads is going to be but a pain. :P
05:29:12 <DDR> And, vam, the fun went out of it. :P
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10:25:04 <andythenorth> I _could_ also now generate the cargo table, although that might be overkill
10:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why do so many of your random_switches return results for 1 twice? <-- any particular example?
10:27:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: file that under 'andythenorth failed to understand the spec'
10:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, you mean like "1: target"
10:28:27 <andythenorth> I missed a whole paragraph of docs somehow :o
10:28:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like "probability 1/n"
10:29:15 * andythenorth is not good at probabilities :P
10:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a switch like "random:(3:3rd_class,2:2nd_class,2:1st_class)" then you have slightly more 3rd class than others
10:34:12 <andythenorth> I don't know why probability is counter-intuitive
10:34:17 <andythenorth> the maths is simple
10:34:41 <andythenorth> in a binary situation, if you have 1 in 100 chance of case A, then you must have a 99/100 chance of case B
10:35:00 <andythenorth> yet probability bamboozles lots of people
10:35:31 <andythenorth> something in some brains just doesn't grok it
10:36:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: think differently, not in %
10:36:16 <planetmaker> think in fractions
10:36:24 <planetmaker> the total is the sum of the single numbers
10:36:41 <planetmaker> thus the single probability is n/N where n is the single number and N = sum n_i
10:36:54 <planetmaker> what's dificult there?
10:37:01 <planetmaker> you understand a house accepting 3/8, too?
10:37:13 <andythenorth> the maths *is* simple
10:37:14 <planetmaker> nothing different there then in a random switch
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10:37:30 <andythenorth> what puzzles me is why so many people have trouble with this simple maths
10:37:34 <andythenorth> I don't have trouble making change
10:37:49 <andythenorth> buy something for 75p, hand over £1, 25p change
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10:38:25 <andythenorth> I can see no sensible explanation for why it's not obvious :O
10:38:27 <planetmaker> I have a box of 3 black, 2 red and 2 green marbles. what's the chance for black?
10:38:41 <planetmaker> that's how random switches work
10:39:12 <planetmaker> and no, we don't have to consider with or without putting back the marble. It's only selecting one :-)
10:39:49 <andythenorth> if you gave me a list and pulled one value at random, I could tell you that the chance of any value is 1/len(list)
10:40:00 <andythenorth> and if a value is repeated on that, I could do the maths on that too
10:40:13 <andythenorth> anyway - work...
10:40:18 <planetmaker> and the latter is what we have :-)
10:40:46 <andythenorth> I think if I hadn't overlooked a paragraph of docs, I might have found it easier :P
10:40:54 <andythenorth> it's explained clearly enough
10:41:08 * andythenorth -> making interwebs
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11:01:51 <peter1138> CAN I SEE YOU LASERS?
11:04:34 <Elukka> are they immersed in a a thick enough gas or fluid
11:04:47 <Elukka> and what is their wavelength
11:07:08 <planetmaker> peter1138: of course. once with each eye :-P
11:07:36 <planetmaker> (yes, I know where your quote comes from ;-) )
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11:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> oha... the "tour de dope" strikes again...
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12:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll be away for a week or two...
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14:07:01 <Elukka> no but the point of that photo is probably to look like he's a NORMAL WORKING MAN JUST LIKE YOU
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15:24:34 <supermop> hey andythenorth, are you around?
15:24:52 <supermop> what is a good way to draw pixels on a mac?
15:25:02 <supermop> i'm at work and it is slow
15:25:16 <supermop> hmm the big computer does has ps i think
15:25:34 <andythenorth> there are swatches available for dos and windows palette
15:25:44 <andythenorth> you can reliably export layered RGB to an indexed png
15:25:53 <andythenorth> I've used both CS and CS5 for this
15:26:15 <andythenorth> if not photoshop, dunno. Maybe gimp
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15:29:09 <Elukka> photoshop is kinda stupid in that it doesn't let you have layers in indexed images
15:29:19 <supermop> i use ps at home anyway so i will just work on a .psd that i can email back to myself
15:29:32 <Elukka> i use a palette so i only select colors that exist in the openttd palette and then convert to indexed when i'm done
15:29:37 <Elukka> but it'd be useful to have a layered, indexed image
15:30:46 <andythenorth> Elukka: you wouldn't gain that much
15:31:11 <andythenorth> it would mean turning off (or modifying) all layer effects like blending and such
15:34:43 <supermop> how big is the full extra zoom?
15:34:52 <supermop> twice as big as normal?
15:35:57 <supermop> so to re draw a train for full zoom I should scale by 400% and then trace it?
15:36:20 <supermop> I was doing that with ogfx stations last night, but only at 200%
15:39:26 <V453000> I guess ... I just draw in 100% and not bother about any zoom levels
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15:40:54 <Elukka> i think i'd draw the 4x sprite, then just scale it down to get the 2x one
15:41:02 <Elukka> i haven't tried though so i dunno if it works well enough
15:41:07 <supermop> that what i want to do
15:42:11 <Elukka> scaling it down further to 1x might provide a good basis for the sprite but at that scale one pixel being misplaced makes the whole thing look wrong so it'd take a lot of fixing
15:45:35 <supermop> well you could retrace
15:46:05 <supermop> currently i am scaling up regular sprites to trace, but eventually it would make sense to go the other way
15:51:04 <supermop> anyway it would be fun to draw a monorail set
15:51:31 <supermop> loosely based on alweg/hitachi monorails
15:51:54 <supermop> i sort of hate everything monorails stand for, which makes me more fascinated with them
15:53:01 <supermop> for example, i often see them as a mid century boondoggle, sold on a sense of pseudo-futurism, that diverted attention from more important transit planning
15:53:46 <supermop> but at the same time it is fun to buy into the wonder of what could have been, and look at what some cities have actually done with a fairly limited set of hardware
15:55:18 <supermop> that being said, and alweg set, starting in 1959-60 with Disney and seattle units, and continuing to modern times with units based on the Tama monorail could be neat
15:56:58 <supermop> so that one can play with monorails not as a step upgrade between steel rail and maglev in the near future, but as an alternative to heavy rail for passenger transit in urban areas, parallel to the rail network
15:57:15 <supermop> anyway thats what i'lll draw in my downtime at work today
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15:59:29 <supermop> sorry for the diatribe
16:01:09 <Elukka> monorails are very zeerust
16:03:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Best explanation of it I've heard
16:04:17 <V453000> interesting. Is there an opposite?
16:04:43 <V453000> My trains keep having that :D
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16:06:58 <supermop> but that is the funny thing about monorails
16:07:28 <supermop> here in the US they are if anything the hight of retro-futurist kitsch,
16:08:25 <supermop> which works to their advantage in their most prominent US installations: Disneyland, Disney World, and Seattle juxtaposed to the Space Needle
16:09:14 <supermop> they seem just enough removed from real life practicalities (and common perceptions of mass transit) to be perfect in a tourist wonderland
16:09:27 <Elukka> i guess this is technically still monorail
16:10:00 <supermop> but at the same time, there are on the other side of the world serious - and successful - commuter monorail systems
16:11:29 <supermop> In Tokyo, Osaka, Kuala Lumpur etc
16:12:52 <michi_cc> Elukka: It might even be enough to not draw any 2x sprite at all and simple let OpenTTD handle it. If you don't have too many details the simple throw-every-second-pixel-away scaling might be okay.
16:14:07 <supermop> the strategy being to draw 1x and 4x sprites, and let ottd figure out the rest?
16:14:09 <Elukka> i'd consider doing extra zoom level sprites if cets didn't already have so many sprite angles to draw
16:16:03 <michi_cc> Draw 2x with not too many extra details and hope 1x still looks good?
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16:54:27 <frosch123> he, i did not expect eddi would reply to fs#5043 :p
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17:29:51 <supermop> can't find a good monorail project from the 70s
17:31:20 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, monorails should be a tram variant. I don't see that working right any time soon though
17:32:33 <Rhamphoryncus> And I don't see why an elevated monorails would be better than elevated trams
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17:40:03 <supermop> a monorail trail should not get stuck in traffic?
17:42:01 <Rhamphoryncus> Those tourist monorails are very light
17:42:28 <supermop> but not all monorails are tourist-based
17:43:04 <supermop> and currently rails allow many more different types and possibilities than road types
17:45:52 <Elukka> well it still needs the ship it's just the engine and stuff now
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18:32:03 <__ln__> how to find the Laplace transform of integral[0,t] sin(2u)cos(t-u)du ? it's a convolution, yes, but what to do with the 2u?
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18:33:39 <LordAro> so, um, patch review? wink, wink, nudge, nudge ;)
18:33:49 <planetmaker> if you don't like the 2u use the addition theorems to change it to other sin and cos terms
18:34:35 <__ln__> thanks, i'll look into that
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23904 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by NG
18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 2 changes by mantaray
18:45:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
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19:11:41 <supermop> how many pixels are the left and right corners of a tile?
19:12:15 <andythenorth> if I understand your question
19:12:58 <supermop> so redrawing a sprite for ez, i leave a sort of saw-tooth like tile edge?
19:13:24 <frosch123> if it shall be compatible with other landscape sets, yes
19:13:35 <supermop> or do i smooth it down to 1:2
19:13:51 <frosch123> (including industry sets, house sets, ... i.e. everything with its own ground tiles)
19:13:53 <planetmaker> both would work... but the "default is the big zig-zag.
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19:14:34 <planetmaker> steps for the tile borders
19:14:43 <supermop> that make sense for a tile edge, but a train could have smoother 1:2 edges?
19:15:02 <Rubidium> why do you want the edges that zig-zaggy?
19:15:09 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I don't.
19:15:16 <frosch123> Rubidium: so they connect to other tiles?
19:15:17 <planetmaker> But what looks a 1x sprite zoomed-out like?
19:15:27 <Rubidium> frosch123: so... draw all of them
19:15:44 <planetmaker> tbh, yes, it *should* be done
19:15:54 <frosch123> as i said. if you disallow all house and industry sets ever released, you can change the slope
19:16:11 <planetmaker> frosch123, not really the slope, but the granularity
19:16:14 <frosch123> otherwise everything with groundtiles from other grfs will glitch
19:16:32 <supermop> wouldnt you just have a blurry overlap?
19:16:44 <supermop> that doesnt sound bad to me
19:16:58 <frosch123> you can try to make the zig-zag overlap
19:16:59 <supermop> my main worry is at the left and right corners
19:17:10 <frosch123> no idea whether that would work :)
19:17:29 <supermop> where at regular zoom you have a 1:2 rectangle
19:17:39 <supermop> but at full zoom it is 4:8?
19:18:09 <supermop> this means the tile is now an even number of pixels tall instead of odd
19:18:14 <frosch123> supermop: even the default tiles overlap at the edges
19:18:18 <supermop> won't that cause problems?
19:19:18 <supermop> how many pixels is the loading gauge at regular zoom (ie how much gap between platforms)
19:21:06 * andythenorth wonders if someone will EZ FIRS
19:21:55 <supermop> looking for sprites of stations to scrape off of forums to measure...
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19:25:41 <supermop> looks like isr high platforms ar 7 pixels wide
19:26:14 <supermop> and most seem to be 3 tall
19:30:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: print the graphics on a ballon and blow
19:31:23 <frosch123> (also illustrates if you take extra zoom too far)
19:32:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: photoshop has an option for that
19:32:14 * andythenorth is slightly serious
19:33:10 <frosch123> sounds like firs for toyland
19:33:18 <frosch123> industry construction and destruction
19:33:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it would make sense to a certain extend
19:36:59 <supermop> an '8/8' vehicle is half a tile right?
19:37:16 <supermop> and they are typically '3/8' wide?
19:37:40 <andythenorth> nearest neighbour interpolation
19:37:46 <andythenorth> same as what the game is doing :P
19:37:50 <supermop> would 4/8 wide x 6/8 long look too chubby?
19:38:12 <supermop> looks fine to me andy
19:38:37 <SmatZ> would that fit nicely into tunnels?
19:38:42 <planetmaker> yes. But why would you provide that in FIRS then, andythenorth ?
19:39:17 <planetmaker> You could start to draw 4x sprites, though ;-)
19:39:54 <andythenorth> but I think life is short
19:39:57 <frosch123> you only have to click 16x as often
19:40:44 <planetmaker> hm... xerox microscopy?
19:40:56 <frosch123> anyway. isn't zoom in so you can see all the details? so why add smaller details? :p
19:41:14 <planetmaker> put on copy machine, set to max. zoom and copy. Repeat until you can see atoms :-P
19:41:28 <planetmaker> haha, frosch123 :-)
19:42:03 <planetmaker> you can then examine the screws of the cars and trains
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20:11:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23905 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix [FS#5045]: OpenMSX got downloaded to and extracted in the wrong (non-existent) folder
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20:12:19 <supermop> it seems that even a very wide train (4/8) still would have large gaps between it and the platform edge
20:12:41 <supermop> should I make the train wider, or the platforms wider?
20:13:04 <supermop> at regular zoom you don't notice it, but it looks silly at ez
20:14:21 <Rubidium> I'd say the platform
20:14:32 <Rubidium> as the train will look chubby pretty quickly
20:14:34 <frosch123> yeah, ez guys already make the vehicles to high
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20:14:54 <supermop> i like chubby trains personally
20:15:06 <planetmaker> they're good for toyland :-)
20:15:09 <supermop> rather than realistic proportions
20:15:21 <supermop> they look cute and characatured
20:15:25 <planetmaker> well. TTD is not realistic either. But trains are not exactly chubby
20:16:05 <supermop> but I can only change one at a time, either make a train set or a station set
20:16:17 <supermop> and stations aren't supported yet in nml
20:16:38 <planetmaker> Don't let that be a reason to set wrong standards
20:16:46 <planetmaker> starting wrong makes for a sad future
20:17:40 <supermop> well changing either platforms or gauge, either one would no longer be standard
20:18:34 <supermop> bigger platforms and you can no longer use other platform sets, although the other train sets are narrow enough that they would be fine
20:19:02 <supermop> bigger trains might fit well in existing station sets but look silly next to other trains
20:19:37 <supermop> basically, a tile is 16 units to a side,
20:20:09 <supermop> currently 3 of those are train, and a total of 7-8 are platform
20:20:33 <supermop> so you are left with 5-6 units of gap
20:22:24 <supermop> 4 unit wide platforms work well for building station tiles modularly
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20:23:54 <supermop> well ill work to standards for now
20:24:16 <supermop> if i really hate it ill have to make all new everything anyway
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20:33:11 <Rhamphoryncus> I thought it was funny when I saw a 6 horse carriage with 0 hp. No, it really does have no power x_x
20:36:07 * andythenorth does write the internets
20:36:12 <MNIM> yeah, that needs fixing :d
20:43:51 <MNIM> the second option is a guaranteed problem, the third option...
20:44:04 <MNIM> well, if eddi says it's a can of worms, it probably is.
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20:47:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23906 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: replace magic numbers with named constants (adf88)
20:51:02 <andythenorth> I should probably UPPER_CASE most string ids, with some ugly UPPER_lower mix :P
21:28:57 <andythenorth> does ottd concatenate any mixed case string identifiers?
21:34:59 <supermop> man i have no idea what that means
21:35:13 <supermop> my little monorail is coming along though
21:35:26 <supermop> real work keeps popping up though...
21:36:33 <Rubidium> andythenorth: we're not concatenating at all
21:37:17 <andythenorth> I don't have a nice way to avoid it
21:38:26 <andythenorth> guess I should just live with mixed case
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