IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-05
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06:30:12 <andythenorth> the toddler woke up early
06:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> good luck for him
06:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> he'll have an excellent carreer :)
06:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> + I couldn't have hooked up the makefile alone without the copy-paste from CETS <-- that was mostly planetmaker's work
06:32:50 * andythenorth has a string design problem
06:32:50 <andythenorth> did you solve concatenation in nml?
06:33:19 <andythenorth> well planetmaker is due thanks also :)
06:34:51 <andythenorth> I'm not even sure what my spec is yet
06:35:03 <andythenorth> I have a headache about translations
06:35:47 <andythenorth> say I do an english string "This vehicle carries " <value> t in <value> trailers"
06:36:07 <andythenorth> that's five substrings
06:36:14 <andythenorth> or I use the text stack
06:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "This vehicle carries {WEIGHT} in {NUM} trailers"
06:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> string(STR_DESC, weight, num)
06:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that should basically work
06:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as weight and num are known
06:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the names could be off though :)
06:38:05 <andythenorth> so string() is using templating?
06:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it can evaluate the same parameters that the game can use
06:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also just use string(STR_DESC) and push weight and num on the stack during CB23
06:39:17 <andythenorth> so does that compile to text stack manipulation?
06:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the first method will evaluate the full string, and make a static string out of it
06:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the stack manipulation was apparently too difficult to figure out, so you'll have to do that manually
06:40:47 <andythenorth> think I'd better experiment :)
06:40:47 <andythenorth> dunno why I'm scared of the text satck
06:40:47 <andythenorth> used it loads in FIRS
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06:41:47 <andythenorth> the main arse with the text stack is (a) remembering the order of the stack (b) packing / unpacking values into dwords
06:41:47 <andythenorth> nml might hide that
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06:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, nobody could figure that out yet
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06:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> what this probably needs is a deeper hiding of the switch-structure, so the compiler has more freedom in shuffling stuff around
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07:01:43 <andythenorth> I considered doing all the concatenation with python when I write the string to the lang file
07:01:43 <andythenorth> it's more robust
07:01:48 <andythenorth> but smells wrong for translations
07:02:17 <andythenorth> I can't see how I avoid code like "if spanish: do_stuff() elif: norwegian: do_other_stuff:
07:02:23 <andythenorth> which is a horrible pattern
07:02:44 <andythenorth> can someone tell me I'm overthinking it please?
07:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you're overthinking it
07:03:16 <andythenorth> do you assemble any strings with python in CETS?
07:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i handle two strings: the vehicle name, and the vehicle description
07:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle name is assembled at compile time, and the vehicle description at run time
07:07:06 * andythenorth experiments further
07:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle name may be a standard string, or look like "{STRING} - {STRING} (Abteilwagen, {STRING})"
07:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in which case i check whether i have the right amount of parameters, and the parameters will look like "string(STR_PASSENGER_WAGON),string(STR_EXPRESS_TRAIN)" or similar
07:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i expand "{SUP:1}" to "¹" in that step
07:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle description consists of multiple parts, e.g. the axle scheme and railtype info, and some stats that aren't mentioned in the normal purchase info
07:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> means i have a string:STR_ENG_DESCRIPTION :{BLACK}Axle Scheme: {GOLD}{STRING}{BLACK} Use: {GOLD}{STRING}{BLACK}{}Track Class: {GOLD}{STRING}{BLACK}
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07:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and do the stack-pushing:
07:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> file.write('switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, VEH_ID(text_switch_certs), [STORE_TEMP(string(STR_AUTO_%d) | string(%s) << 16, 0x100), STORE_TEMP(string(STR_TRACK_TYPES_CERTS) | string(STR_TRACK_CLASS_CERTS_%s) << 16, 0x101), STORE_TEMP(string(STR_TRACK_TYPE_%s%s), 0x102), 0]) {\n'%(tables.strings.index(axle_scheme), tables.usage_strings[usage], track_type[1], track_type[0], track_type[4]))
07:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the axle_scheme string is also processed by python, in that it reads them from the tracking table, weeds out duplicates, and gives them string-ids
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07:38:38 <andythenorth> my approach to strings is defective
07:38:54 <andythenorth> I'm going to end up creating my own lang file system
07:38:59 <andythenorth> which seems stupid
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07:45:01 * andythenorth waits for inspiration to strike :P
07:49:14 * SmatZ suggests the approach used in openttd :)
07:52:29 <andythenorth> either I have lots of ugly code in the language template
07:52:44 <andythenorth> or I delegate it all to the class, but then it's harder to find
07:52:58 <andythenorth> and hard-coding english strings into the class is a big no-no
07:53:15 <andythenorth> either route starts to imply having a strings file
07:53:33 <andythenorth> but that's just replicating privately what nml lang files are supposed to do already
07:53:54 <andythenorth> maybe I should parse the lang files :o
07:54:04 <andythenorth> and then rewrite them dynamically
07:54:09 <andythenorth> because that never goes wrong :P
07:55:10 <andythenorth> the code itself isn't ugly, but in this context it sucks
07:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i just take the lng.in file, and append my autogenerated strings
07:56:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would translators translate your strings?
07:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> they only translate the .lng.in file
07:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the autogenerated strings are always the same
07:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the next-to-last commit especially
07:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> or the one before that
08:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no, misread that
08:02:28 <andythenorth> STR_TRACK_TYPES_DEFAULT :{STRING}
08:02:33 <andythenorth> then pass something?
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08:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you pass "electrified", "unelectrified" or "3rd rail" to that
08:03:38 <andythenorth> do you parse the lang files at all? Or just read them in and write them out with appends?
08:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> just read and write out again
08:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> nml does the assembling
08:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> r277 may also be interesting
08:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it was the initial cb23 commit, afaict
08:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> before it got "complicated" with the railtype stuff
08:12:04 <andythenorth> for BANDIT the correct solution seems to be switching to different strings according to various conditions
08:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and r30, which handled the autogeneration of the vehicle names
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08:16:24 <andythenorth> generation I have covered ;)
08:16:49 <andythenorth> what I'm missing is how to make the nml {} substitution work
08:18:02 <andythenorth> r617 might help me
08:21:28 <andythenorth> additional_text: string(str_buy_menu_text_default, string(str_foo));
08:21:47 <andythenorth> ^ look valid for calling a string with {STRING} in it?
08:22:05 <andythenorth> that makes things easier :)
08:22:17 <andythenorth> now I work with nml, instead of inventing silly ways to circumvent it
08:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> may also work with numbers and weights, not tested that
08:22:39 <andythenorth> it's used in FIRS for cargo units etc
08:23:28 <andythenorth> ok this is pretty easy now
08:27:27 <andythenorth> buy_menu_text: {STRING} {STRING} {STRING} etc
08:27:49 <andythenorth> then call functions on the vehicle to decide what the identifier for each string is
08:28:07 <andythenorth> should be ok for translation too
08:33:22 <andythenorth> is there anything like string(EMPTY) or string(NULL)
08:33:26 <andythenorth> before I go inventing one?
08:33:30 <andythenorth> I can't find anything in docs
08:34:00 <andythenorth> for when a {STRING} replacement should be blank
08:34:18 <planetmaker> you need to define your own STR_EMPTY
08:34:51 * andythenorth keeps reinventing things nml already provides
08:34:56 <andythenorth> and is trying not to
08:35:17 <planetmaker> ehm, no, there really is no such string
08:35:32 <planetmaker> just... OpenTTD calls its empty string STR_EMPTY ;-)
08:38:10 <andythenorth> for a string like str_buy_menu_text_default :{STRING} {STRING} {STRING}
08:38:26 <andythenorth> the last token can be dropped when calling string
08:38:43 <andythenorth> e.g. this works additional_text: string(str_buy_menu_text_default, string(str_empty), string(str_empty));
08:38:47 <andythenorth> this doesn't additional_text: string(str_buy_menu_text_default, string(str_empty), , string(str_empty));
08:39:06 * andythenorth doesn't want to leave empty tokens, it was an accidental find....
08:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just a syntax error, has nothing to do with the string
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08:55:50 <andythenorth> this makes complete sense right? :P
08:55:50 <andythenorth> additional_text: string(str_buy_menu_text_${vehicle.id}, string(${vehicle.get_vehicle_type_string()}), string(${vehicle.get_trailer_info_string()}));
08:56:23 <andythenorth> I could hide some of that in the class, (one big string as return value) but that's a bit magical
09:01:47 <andythenorth> do we have any magic for plurals?
09:02:01 <andythenorth> (if we do, probably not accessible to my class) :P
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09:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> also for genders and stuff
09:06:54 <andythenorth> more magic than this?
09:06:55 <andythenorth> trailer${['','s'][vehicle.truck_num_trailers > 1]}
09:07:54 <andythenorth> ^ blunt instrument
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09:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "string(STR_TRAILER,num_trailers)" and "STR_TRAILER:{NUM} trailer{P "" s}"
09:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that some translations will want to make different plurals
09:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so in this case there's no way around using the "official" method
09:12:00 <andythenorth> this will need a little thought
09:12:31 <andythenorth> I have to pass quite a lot of params to multiple nested strings
09:13:18 <andythenorth> incidentally, is there a convention for string identifiers to be UPPER_CAPS ?
09:13:33 <planetmaker> yes. OpenTTD does so
09:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i don't stick to it...
09:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the autogenerated strings are different
09:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i append the vehicle-identifier
09:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> which is mixed case
09:14:07 <andythenorth> I can call .upper() on stuff I'm concatenating
09:15:08 <andythenorth> also makes the code overly facetted
09:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but you should simply be able to nest strings: "string(STR_DESCRIPTION,string(STR_CAPACITY,60),string(STR_TRAILERS,2))"
09:17:03 <andythenorth> that's kind of what I'm doing
09:17:15 <andythenorth> just I have a few more strings than that
09:17:36 <andythenorth> takes longer to write
09:18:13 <planetmaker> there's a limit though on how much you can nest
09:18:37 <andythenorth> also - sometimes just writing out strings manually is easier than dynamically building them...
09:18:38 <planetmaker> might be around 6, including arguments
09:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: only for the dynamic composition
09:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the nml static composition shouldn't have that limit
09:19:01 <planetmaker> yes. Didn't we talk about that?
09:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: nml resolves those strings directly
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09:20:38 <andythenorth> is str_buy_menu_truck_1: Truck type: heavy duty {} Hauls 20t in 1 trailer or 40t in 2 trailers
09:20:56 <andythenorth> is that just easier than code and lots of substrings
09:21:09 <andythenorth> it imposes maintenance burden
09:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes if you have 3 trucks, no if you have 300
09:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> how did people ever write programs for atari 2600? 128 byte of ram, no framebuffer, 1-dimensional sprites, and maximum 2 sprites per line
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09:43:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23899 /extra/website/bananas/views.py: [website] -Change: use grfid -m to determine the GRFID of a NewGRF
09:50:09 <andythenorth> one function for vehicle.get_buy_menu_string() then
09:50:32 * andythenorth ponders adding plenty of squirrely 'if' statements
09:50:48 <andythenorth> maybe /me should learn 'switch'
10:01:11 * andythenorth wonders if BANDIT is a truck set, or a framework for truck sets
10:02:06 <andythenorth> how about a truck framework called Convoy?
10:02:08 <Alberth> truck-chassis is a better name :p
10:02:28 <andythenorth> did I accidentally write a framework?
10:02:30 <andythenorth> I didn't intend to
10:03:12 <Alberth> you didn't? you mentioned the idea to allow further customization by others earlier already iirc
10:04:24 <andythenorth> it wouldn't take much work to make this reusable for other sets
10:04:31 <andythenorth> removable of some BANDIT specific references
10:05:29 <andythenorth> customisation of this set is one thing, reuse for others is another
10:05:42 <andythenorth> one involves somehow making the framework an upstream dependency for starters
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10:07:05 <Alberth> do starters make enough truck graphics to warrant a framework?
10:07:55 <andythenorth> you talked me out of it :)
10:08:13 <andythenorth> so many web projects start out making a site or an app
10:08:24 <andythenorth> then spend all their time making uber-framework that will solve world peace
10:11:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: not only web-apps, game-development IDEs do that too ;)
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10:17:54 <peter1138> gimp... led to the gnome desktop ;)
10:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> it wouldn't take much work to make this reusable for other sets <-- that's what i thought, but then nobody wanted it... "for having even the slightest clue what he's actually doing"
10:20:24 <Alberth> peter1138: and the pictures are very pretty, but it is very complicated to use ;)
10:21:02 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yep, you need tons of documentation to explain how you are supposed to use a framework
10:21:24 <Alberth> sadly, for 90% of the frameworks that is not available :(
10:22:50 * andythenorth will continue making a set in that case
10:24:04 <andythenorth> with the easter egg feature that you can edit it yourself IFF you have (hg && GCC && python > 2.6 && Chameleon )
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10:31:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that all is of no importance, if it is a set and the author (i.e. you) are content with it
10:31:43 <planetmaker> for a framework it needs a certain balance between benefit and complexity to use. Which includes amount of requirements and documentation
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10:33:20 <andythenorth> also, making a framework based on what I've learnt from one set would be dumb
10:33:28 <andythenorth> it would be geared to the assumptions of this set
10:34:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: incidentally I considered quite seriously re-using CETS code
10:34:12 <andythenorth> but generators still scare me
10:34:22 <andythenorth> you would have ended up with 50% credit for the set
10:34:25 <planetmaker> it would not be dumb. But it would not necessary lead to a set. And there's not yet a set, is there?
10:34:28 <andythenorth> due to support requests :P
10:34:38 <andythenorth> no there is no set
10:34:40 <planetmaker> First I'd make a really working and "full" set.
10:34:43 <andythenorth> "there is no spoon"
10:34:55 <planetmaker> Then you'll where the rough edges are which could be made better
10:35:11 <planetmaker> And then might be the time to think of modifying to make it a useful framework. IMHO
10:35:29 <andythenorth> currently I am making the actual set
10:35:35 <planetmaker> Doesn't mean you can't do it now in the way to make it easy to "rip out" a framework afterwards
10:35:45 <andythenorth> does risk over-engineering though
10:36:02 <andythenorth> if I put things like ${set_name} everywhere
10:36:07 <andythenorth> it's complexity I don't need
10:36:10 <planetmaker> more important than that risk though is that you have fun :-)
10:36:21 <andythenorth> learning python is fun ;)
10:36:31 <planetmaker> see. Than it's "aim reached" :-)
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10:38:05 * andythenorth advocates python adventures for all
10:38:18 <andythenorth> but one man's pleasure is another's poison :P
10:44:51 <andythenorth> nobody made a poisonous python joke? :P
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11:02:53 <andythenorth> where the number of trailers, and the capacity of each varies per truck
11:03:00 <andythenorth> I can think of horrible ways to do it
11:03:40 <Rubidium> {WEIGHT} in {NUM} trailer{P "" s}
11:04:07 <andythenorth> it's iterating over a variable number of trailers that is trouble
11:04:24 <andythenorth> (without writing if: blah lots of times)
11:05:01 <andythenorth> maybe an iterator can do it cleanly
11:05:15 <Alberth> and a dict mapping count to text
11:06:26 <Alberth> sum() might be helpful here
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11:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> STR_ONE_MORE_LINE:{STRING}{}{STRING} => string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(STR_TRAILER,20,1),string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(STR_TRAILER,40,2),string(STR_TRAILER,60,3)))
11:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> where STR_TRAILER is what Rubidium wrote
11:12:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that, only generated by python
11:12:43 <andythenorth> anyway, I'll poke at it
11:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> generate_string(items): reverse(items); s = "string(STR_TRAILER,%d,%d)"%items[0]; del items[0]; for item in items: s="string(ONE_MORE_LINE,%s,%s)"%("string(STR_TRAILER,%d,%d)"%item,s)
11:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> or something similar
11:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> important is that you work backwards
11:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so you start with (60,3)
11:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and go on with (40,2) and (20,1)
11:15:32 <andythenorth> it's intriguing that the strings nest
11:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> if you frequently expect more than 3 items, you can also make it a tree
11:16:11 <andythenorth> I don't expect >3
11:16:14 <andythenorth> but it might happen
11:16:19 <andythenorth> a tree might be fun
11:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> make_tree(items): if len(items) == 1: return "string(STR_TRAILER,%d,%d)"%items[0]; return "string(ONE_MORE_LINE,%s,%s)"%(make_tree(items[:len(items)/2]),make_tree(items[len(items)/2:]))
11:19:39 <andythenorth> so it recurses until there's only one node left?
11:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> typical divide and conquer
11:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it won't give any advantage for 3 items, though
11:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> >>> make_tree([(20,1),(40,2),(60,3)])
11:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> 'string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(STR_TRAILER,20,1),string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(STR_TRAILER,40,2),string(STR_TRAILER,60,3)))'
11:23:45 <andythenorth> I would never have thought of the ONE_MORE_LINE approach :)
11:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> >>> make_tree([(20,1),(40,2),(60,3),(80,4)])
11:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> 'string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(STR_TRAILER,20,1),string(STR_TRAILER,40,2)),string(ONE_MORE_LINE,string(STR_TRAILER,60,3),string(STR_TRAILER,80,4)))'
11:23:56 <andythenorth> it's completely logical, but also spooky
11:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what 1st year computer science lectures do to you :)
11:26:23 <andythenorth> I need to def make_tree?
11:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> as the lines above
11:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> spanish is the new english
11:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: @staticmethod, or give "self" parameter
11:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and you should probably guard against calling with 0 arguments
11:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean an empty list
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11:42:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm failing ^
11:42:21 <andythenorth> I'm also learning. But not winning.
11:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> must put that _before_ the def :)
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11:49:30 <andythenorth> do I need to import @staticmethod
11:49:47 <andythenorth> chameleon.utils.TypeError: 'staticmethod' object is not callable
11:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno what you did
11:54:27 <Alberth> just put the def outside the class :)
12:00:47 <andythenorth> NameError: global name 'make_tree' is not defined
12:00:51 <andythenorth> context is wrong when I call?
12:00:59 <andythenorth> my class has (self) ?
12:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you must call self.make_tree
12:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or Truck.make_tree
12:02:45 <Alberth> self reduces confusion :)
12:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> how did you ever write a python program? :p
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12:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> 'school prinicpal in Passau (Bavaria) forbids using "Hallo" and "Tschüs"'
12:09:52 <Rubidium> moin, quak, bonjour, au revoir ;)
12:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if even "Hallo" is 'too northern' for them, i don't think they'd approve "moin" :p
12:11:53 <planetmaker> I wondered about that, too, Eddi|zuHause :-)
12:12:07 <planetmaker> I guess I'd go for 'moin' just for the sake of "just because"
12:12:57 <Rubidium> alternatively moimoi, which is even northerner
12:12:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I tried self.make_tree first
12:13:04 <andythenorth> NameError: global name 'make_tree' is not defined
12:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're doing something horribly wrong...
12:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and it doesn't have anything to do with my code...
12:14:23 <andythenorth> I shouldn't call make_tree in the __init__ ?
12:14:29 <andythenorth> does it exist at that point?
12:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and "self.make_tree" can never throw a "global name" error
12:14:57 <andythenorth> moving elsewhere in the flow doesn't help
12:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it can only ever throw "has no member" error
12:16:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23900 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Update [FS#5041]: some error/inconsistencies in the UK base "translation"
12:20:09 <andythenorth> it's the calls to make_tree in this line that are failing
12:20:09 <andythenorth> return "string(ONE_MORE_LINE,%s,%s)"%(make_tree(items[:len(items)/2]), make_tree(items[len(items)/2:]))
12:20:31 <andythenorth> calling Truck.make_tree() works
12:20:37 <andythenorth> self.make_tree() fails
12:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then you should probably make it a @classmethod
12:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and put "cls" as first parameter
12:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and call cls.make_tree
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12:22:03 * andythenorth is mostly a lego brick coder
12:22:19 <andythenorth> if it can't be done with a dumb iterator, I probably can't do it ;)
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12:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: only thing more northern than the "moin"-region could be danish
12:24:13 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: moimoi is Finnish ;)
12:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> or "färöisch"... :p
12:24:57 <Rubidium> oh.. I meant "moi moi" ;)
12:27:56 <andythenorth> nml is not happy with {NUM}
12:28:02 <andythenorth> I think it's another tag
12:33:06 <andythenorth> Invalid number of arguments to plural command, expected 0 but got 2
12:33:22 <andythenorth> string is {WEIGHT} in {COMMA} trailer{P "" s}
12:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> need to define a ##plural?
12:33:42 <andythenorth> string(STR_TRAILER,20,1)
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12:39:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I think the plural is implicit
12:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but then nml handles it incorrectly
12:42:20 <andythenorth> this turns out to be more complex than expected :)
12:43:12 <Hirundo> You need to set #plural
12:48:59 * andythenorth skips plurals for now
12:49:23 <andythenorth> nmlc: "bandit.nml", line 755: First parameter of string() must be an identifier.
12:49:26 <ZevaKa> hello! can anyone help me with that ? here's screenshot: http://xrl.us/page341 - fighting with that error for 3 hours already ... :(
12:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> just write "##plural 0" in the lang file, can't be that hard
12:49:54 <andythenorth> I'll come back to it
12:50:35 <andythenorth> they all look like identifiers to me
12:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the first string() is wrong
12:57:21 <andythenorth> that's going to work
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13:21:37 <andythenorth> just plurals to fix :)
13:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> has a few alignment quirks
13:22:32 <andythenorth> code first, formatting second ;)
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13:25:23 <Elukka> will you have any european vehicles in bandit? most of the time i play with european trucks, so most others would look out of place
13:25:58 <andythenorth> assuming ${someone} draws them
13:26:04 <andythenorth> or you can patch it yourself :P
13:26:05 <andythenorth> nmlc: A plural or gender choice list {P} or {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset
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13:26:10 <andythenorth> STR_TRAILER :{COMMA} in {COMMA} trailer{P "" s}
13:26:21 <Elukka> i'd try if i didn't have cets to work on :P
13:26:36 * andythenorth has no idea how plurals work, but is prepared to learn
13:27:08 <andythenorth> the docs I've found read as though you already know how plurals work
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13:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: tried {1:P ...} or something?
13:30:48 <andythenorth> Hirundo: are there examples of how nml plurals should be used?
13:32:01 <Hirundo> In this case, I'd guess {P 1 "" s}
13:33:06 <andythenorth> Hirundo guesses right :)
13:33:19 <Hirundo> For examples I'm not sure which NML projects really use strings this way
13:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> right, i just found that in the docs :)
13:34:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: link? :)
13:34:09 <Hirundo> andythenorth: You are of the minority that doesn't need a translation to play OpenTTD in his native language
13:34:40 <andythenorth> can NML wiki link that usefully?
13:34:43 <Hirundo> Many others have experience with OpenTTD's string format, which NML basically copies
13:35:06 <Hirundo> (Although I play ottd in en-GB)
13:36:12 <andythenorth> next issue, if I pass an int to {WEIGHT_SHORT} nml doesn't like it
13:36:18 <andythenorth> what's a valid argument?
13:37:15 <andythenorth> it's happy with comma, but that's not going to include the weight unit
13:40:07 <andythenorth> unexpected token 't'
13:40:13 <Yexo> andythenorth: nml can't replace {WEIGHT_SHORT} with a constant value at compile time
13:40:26 <Yexo> it only works of the parameter is supplied via temporary parameters
13:40:39 <andythenorth> can I just write 't' in my string then?
13:40:56 <Yexo> you can do {COMMA}t if you want to
13:41:10 <andythenorth> if that's translation + locale safe...I'm happy to
13:41:22 <Yexo> {WEIGHT_SHORT} is the best option
13:42:53 * andythenorth is stumped then :)
13:43:40 <Yexo> STR_SOMETHING: A weight: {WEIGHT_SHORT}
13:44:10 <Yexo> switch(..., STORE_TEMP(500 /* in tons I think */, 0x100)) { return string(STR_SOMETHING); }
13:45:17 <andythenorth> i.e. use the text stack properly then? :)
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13:45:32 <Yexo> that's the only way to be locale-safe
13:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this is kind of a corner case
13:45:43 <andythenorth> I was hoping to get away with compile time strings, but I can see the issue...
13:45:53 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: not really, same holds for speed
13:46:22 <Yexo> while {COMMA}km/h works, it doesn't look so nice if the user has selected mph as unit
13:46:44 <andythenorth> possibly I should just move to text stack
13:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is no other "weight unit"
13:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as capacities go
13:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with the "stack" is that it's not really a stack
13:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> in the sense of "push(value)" and be done with it
13:47:55 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: there is. if you select SI units you'll get 5000kg instead of 5t
13:48:10 * andythenorth is no lover of the stack :P
13:49:11 <andythenorth> if you want to put an extra value into your string somewhere, it can mean a lot of shuffling
13:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the grf-text-"stack"-magic-registers are really a misdesign
13:49:14 <andythenorth> or changing masks
13:49:30 <andythenorth> although don't ask me for a better one
13:49:39 <andythenorth> why I can't just call register nums I don't know
13:49:42 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: it isn't really a design
13:49:49 <andythenorth> register nums work for industry production cb
13:49:51 <Yexo> it's exactly how the text stack in TTD works
13:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> better would have been one magic register that makes a "push" operation
13:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. can be stored to multiple times
13:50:10 * andythenorth probably doesn't understand significant implementation issues :P
13:50:17 <Yexo> hmm, that'd be better indeed, however such a push operation would need to know the size
13:50:36 <Yexo> unless you go for a different stack like what openttd implements internally
13:51:01 <Yexo> which is 64bit always, but still uses addressing instead of push/pop
13:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> misc grf flag: use TTD stack/use OpenTTD stack
13:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't really matter how it works internally
13:53:13 <andythenorth> although Eddi|zuHause's tree solution is very neat for compile time strings, it would have been relatively easy to do this with a stack where I could pull values and add in substrings
13:53:22 <andythenorth> the current stack could do it, I just can't face that today :P
13:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the current stack has the nasty habit of being limited to like 6 entries
13:53:57 <andythenorth> maybe doing it with the stack would show what's wrong with the stack though :)
13:54:38 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: a lot of entries are only word-sized, so that would mean a limit of 12 entries
13:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> The string parameters itself are assigned in units of dwords (4 bytes), starting with temporary storage 256, up to 259 or 261. <-- that's not very clear
13:56:21 <Yexo> hmm, it's not clear indeed
13:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and it still has the problem of knowing exactly where you are in the stack, in order to push something
13:57:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: a stack works like %s replacement?
13:57:43 * andythenorth is trying to get concepts straight
13:58:03 <andythenorth> foo %s, ham %('bar','ham')
13:58:11 <andythenorth> ugh, wrong syntax
13:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, not at all
13:58:43 <andythenorth> I used it a lot in FIRS, it seems akin to that, only reversed
13:58:46 <Yexo> andythenorth: now try "foo %d %s %d" % (1, "! %d !", 2, 3)
13:59:05 <Yexo> will the output be "foo 1 ! 2 ! 3" or "foo 1 ! 3 ! 2"?
13:59:21 <Yexo> of course this example doesn't work in any language, but that's approximately how the newgrf textstack works
13:59:50 <andythenorth> I used it successfully in FIRS, it just took a lot of shuffling when I wanted to insert a new value or substring into my string
14:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it is possible to solve that, but needs more work
14:01:48 <Yexo> //Remember text stack is LIFO (like array.pop) - put values to render first in highest registers <- that comment is wrong
14:02:22 <andythenorth> many of my comments turn out to be false assumptions
14:03:05 <andythenorth> anyway, currently we have a text stack that I managed to use whilst having entirely wrong mental model of it :)
14:03:09 <andythenorth> what's the problem again?
14:03:26 <Yexo> there are many problems with the current textstack
14:03:30 <Yexo> however replacing it isn't easy
14:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: problem is autogenerating
14:05:13 <Rhamphoryncus> My biggest problem was I didn't realize those .txt files magically turned in to the constants, without any visible temp file to grep
14:06:10 <Yexo> Rhamphoryncus: are you sure you're talking about the same thing?
14:06:36 <Yexo> textstack in newgrfs as implemented in nml, not openttd language files
14:06:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, this is just the newgrf form?
14:06:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: surely you can mangle autogenerated strings and register numbers until it works? :P
14:06:59 <andythenorth> or you run out...
14:07:32 <Yexo> Rhamphoryncus: no, but we were discussing that
14:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: first step would be to make a function that takes a nested array like (STR_ONE_MORE_LINE, (STR_TRAILER,20,1), (STR_TRAILER,40,2)) and write a STORE line for the stack
14:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> then the rest should be easy
14:10:54 <andythenorth> is this an interesting problem to solve?
14:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "interesting" would be to replace the text stack
14:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a workaround, which is generally only "annoying"
14:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: where in nml is the string code?
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14:15:13 <andythenorth> FIRS industry texts were always intended to show current production levels etc. But I couldn't be arsed to go to war with the text stack for varying numbers of cargos etc
14:15:40 <andythenorth> the text stack is not a common problem for vehicles, not many sets would bother using it
14:15:45 <andythenorth> but for industry sets it's an arse
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14:19:07 <andythenorth> {NBSP} gets me a triangle (apex ^)
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14:29:36 <SamCat> okay, scratch that off my list of rumors... apparently you folks *do* sleep
14:30:08 <SamCat> apparently I was wrong about the industries getting stuck at minimum production
14:30:20 <SamCat> they don't actually get stuck, they just take REALLY REALLY LONG to recover
14:30:30 <SamCat> like, ridiculously long
14:30:34 <__ln__> we monitor the channel 24/7 and never sleep
14:31:08 <SamCat> my secret's amphetamines, what's yours?
14:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i don't find the code that evaluates the string() macro there
14:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if not os.path.exists(lang_dir + os.sep + default_lang_file): <-- should use "os.path.join"
14:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/nml_path_join.diff <-- like this
14:38:50 <Rhamphoryncus> SamCat: I'm naturally this way
14:39:27 <Rhamphoryncus> And immune to all know pharmaceuticals to the contrary. It's my superpower.
14:40:04 <SamCat> Me too! Wait... is "superpower" the same as "acquired tolerance"?
14:40:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Do not try to undermine my betterererness :P
14:45:57 * andythenorth wonders why {NBSP} returns bad char
14:46:52 <andythenorth> nfo has no equivalent control chode
14:48:08 <andythenorth> Yexo: {NBSP} returns the nfo control char for 'Scroll button up'
14:56:26 <andythenorth> I thought 20h would encode space
14:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a special code for NBSP
14:59:28 <frosch123> usage of {NBSP} must enforce utf8
14:59:43 <andythenorth> how does nml encode that to nfo?
15:00:00 <andythenorth> currently it is encoding A0
15:00:04 <andythenorth> which is...wrong
15:00:54 <andythenorth> it's 20h in utf8 as well afaict
15:02:41 <frosch123> nml first tries to encode stuff without using utf8
15:02:56 <frosch123> so it likely just lacks the utf8-trigger
15:03:03 <valhallasw> andythenorth: nbsp = non-breaking space
15:03:20 <valhallasw> which is not h20 ;-)
15:03:54 <andythenorth> when did nfo start discarding whitespace?
15:04:01 <andythenorth> I use plain spaces in HEQS fine
15:04:18 <andythenorth> or does grfcodec encode plain space characters to nbsp?
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15:06:27 <Rubidium> nbsp is a space where the line splitting "tools" may not split the words
15:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> nfo always took the literal string, doesn't do any such conversions
15:06:46 <valhallasw> Rubidium: in the specific case of html it also is used as 'don't remove this space'
15:07:06 * andythenorth is fine with all this :) Just wondering how to patch nml :P
15:07:24 <andythenorth> I tried putting in a literal ' '
15:07:33 <andythenorth> I tried encoding latin space 20h
15:07:44 <andythenorth> that is the limit of my guesses
15:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should give us actual code to test?
15:08:16 <Rubidium> where are you trying to put a space that doesn't end up in OpenTTD?
15:09:32 <frosch123> i saw some code which checks whether 'ascii' is present in the struct
15:09:44 <frosch123> so maybe just removing it works :)
15:11:01 <Rubidium> spaces should work there, they're just very short so you need lots of them
15:11:34 <andythenorth> maybe that's simply the issue
15:11:40 <andythenorth> looked like they were being stripped to me
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15:14:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: that appears to work
15:15:25 <andythenorth> using lots of plain spaces also works
15:15:39 <andythenorth> but I uncovered an nml bug along the way :)
15:16:00 <andythenorth> I don't really want to commit the fix in case it has unintended consequences
15:16:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: does that actually supply an nbsp? or just a space?
15:20:04 <frosch123> no idea, look at the produced grf? :p
15:20:25 <frosch123> but i would be surprised if it would result in a normal sapce
15:21:19 * andythenorth ponders testing that
15:22:14 <andythenorth> not sure how to prove it either way tbh
15:23:22 <andythenorth> is the result of STR_TRAILER
15:23:22 <andythenorth> :{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{N
15:23:22 <andythenorth> BSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP
15:23:22 <andythenorth> {NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{NBSP}{COMMA}t in {COMMA} trailer{P 1 "" s}
15:23:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. Manual depot orders break timetables. Not sure if it's fixable
15:24:15 <Rhamphoryncus> (Besides a gut and redesign, which I am very tempted to do.)
15:25:48 <Rhamphoryncus> My longterm goal is to replace the order, timetable, and group windows with a route-management window. Create the route without a vehicle, then build or transfer a vehicle into it
15:27:00 <Rubidium> andythenorth: if you use just plain spaces I reckon you get the same result
15:27:07 <andythenorth> that's my solution
15:27:24 <andythenorth> I just wonder if frosch123 diff fixes nml
15:28:12 <Rhamphoryncus> But I'm very unsure of how well a drastic change like that would be received.
15:28:24 <Rubidium> what would show that NBSP works is making the amount of spaces in front so "big" that the remaining string breaks over two lines. Then adding NBSP at the space where the line break is inserted should make the line be broken differently
15:30:08 <andythenorth> what's the case for an NBSP in newgrf?
15:30:13 <andythenorth> nfo lacks it afaict
15:31:00 <Rubidium> some words/constructs have a space in them, but the line may not be broken at that space
15:31:14 <Rubidium> and nfo has it at well (for at least openttd)
15:32:42 <Rubidium> e.g. OS X should always be kept together, so it's OS{NBSP}X in OpenTTD's translation files meaning that if there has to be a newline it won't break up OS and X even if that would be the location to do so
15:34:04 <andythenorth> not sure my test cases are valid though ^
15:34:37 <andythenorth> string is: [lots of spaces or nbsps] {COMMA}t in {COMMA} trailer{P 1 "" s}
15:35:19 <andythenorth> so with nbsp, rather than breaking, it moves words onto following lines I'm guessing (e.g. 'trailer')
15:35:21 <Rubidium> what you see is that there are places where it normally would put the newline that it now didn't do because there were NBSPs
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15:35:43 <andythenorth> so it's definitely treating nbsp and space differently
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15:36:25 <andythenorth> I'll attach it as a patch and Yexo or so can review it :)
15:36:53 <Rubidium> line breaking happens at spaces. NBSP isn't a space for the line breaking algorithm; it's just as if it is another character/letter
15:38:55 <__ln__> i could almost say that in most contexts many NBSPs in a row means someone is doing something wrong.
15:40:31 <Rubidium> woopsie.. wrong channel ;)
15:51:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23901 /trunk/src/ (fios_gui.cpp gamelog.cpp gamelog.h): -Fix: memory leak everytime one clicked a savegame in the load GUI
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16:13:33 <andythenorth> no switch in python
16:13:41 <andythenorth> use if...elif...else instead
16:13:53 <andythenorth> and I thought I was being lazy to do that :P
16:14:04 <Alberth> you can make a dispatch dict if you want
16:15:00 <Alberth> ie make a function for each case, make a dict d = {value : function}, d[num]() :)
16:15:17 <andythenorth> oh that has a name? :)
16:15:41 <Alberth> in pythoneese it does, not sure if it is a common name
16:15:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: what was it you said originally about me improving scheduling?
16:16:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: is there any name for (case1, case2)[expression] ?
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16:16:28 <andythenorth> which does same as test()
16:16:43 <andythenorth> as long as you get True / False as expression answers :P
16:17:10 <Alberth> oh, I see what you are doing now
16:18:15 <andythenorth> it's a convenient pattern in web templates, because it's usually short
16:18:42 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: no clue, check your logs
16:18:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: I mean my odds of getting it accepted
16:18:59 <Rhamphoryncus> Because I'm still getting a bad vibe
16:19:01 <Alberth> and imho more readable than expr ? case2 : case1 or case2 if expr else case1
16:19:41 <andythenorth> it's a very good way to do things like
16:20:14 <andythenorth> attribute="class python: ('', 'error')[form.has_error]"
16:20:25 <andythenorth> for when you want big red warning boxes :P
16:20:41 <andythenorth> or alternating colours in table rows
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16:22:03 <andythenorth> this buy menu text is *complicated*
16:22:20 <andythenorth> different conditions to handle :P
16:24:17 * andythenorth will soon have more code to generate one buy menu string than for the rest of the build script
16:26:52 <Rhamphoryncus> I think I should assume I'm forking and if something gets accepted that's just a bonus
16:27:21 * andythenorth hates 'if' statements with a lot of code for each case
16:27:31 <andythenorth> always causes trouble in the long run
16:28:09 <SmatZ> andythenorth: will that work with different-sized fonts? what about non-monospaced fonts?
16:28:33 <andythenorth> we could have a bet?
16:28:46 <andythenorth> do you bet for or against?
16:29:04 <SmatZ> I think inserting spaces/NBSPs to vertically align text will break with non-monospaced font
16:30:29 <andythenorth> does same apply to X offset control code?
16:30:33 * andythenorth guesses it might
16:31:03 <andythenorth> I can lose the space
16:31:34 <andythenorth> in this case - it's same number of leading spaces on every line
16:31:40 <andythenorth> so monospace ~= non-monospace?
16:32:03 <andythenorth> I only care about the initial indent
16:32:08 <SmatZ> monospaced fonts have fixed width of all characters
16:32:25 <SmatZ> non-monospaced may have different width for different characters
16:32:34 <andythenorth> I don't want exact number of pixels, just indent(some)
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16:45:25 <andythenorth> Alberth, Eddi|zuHause any rule of thumb on when I should move my Truck() class to it's own module?
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16:53:28 <Alberth> when the class becomes too large
16:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if i say "100 loc", then i'm sure there's plenty of examples where that's not valid
16:56:31 <andythenorth> but when it starts to obscure the flow of the module it's written in ...?
16:56:40 <Alberth> 100? most of my classes don't fit in that :)
16:57:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: find a folding editor :p
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17:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: probably depends on the language, i guess C++ or Java generally might have more LOC
17:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> both because of the language itself, and because of the fields of use
17:03:29 <andythenorth> how to make the plural magic work for 'trailer(s)' when I'm not passing the number of trailers :P
17:03:34 <andythenorth> true corner case?
17:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probalby that's the wrong approach
17:05:04 <Rubidium> use the nfo "remove last X bytes from out"?
17:05:44 <Rubidium> {WEIGHT} in {NUM}{<remove last byte>} trailer{P "" s}
17:05:52 <Rubidium> not sure AT ALL whether that works though
17:06:31 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: no, in Python. I use doc-strings extensively, which are normally larger than the code
17:06:59 <Rubidium> yes, more LOC per method is better ;)
17:06:59 <SpComb> but are docstrings LOC..
17:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: ok, comments don't really count as LOC
17:07:07 <Rubidium> SpComb: ofcourse they are
17:07:22 <Rubidium> they're lines of comment after all ;)
17:09:48 <Alberth> weird people not considering documentation a crucial part of the code :p
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17:13:10 <KGalama> does TTD automaticly updates?
17:14:36 <TWerkhoven> no, mainly because different versions are incompatible
17:18:02 * andythenorth unusually spent 1 day on code for 1 commit
17:18:08 <andythenorth> usually it's ~1 minute :P
17:19:46 <andythenorth> but completing more of the grf is probably a bigger optimisation
17:21:41 <Hirundo> how many sprites actually exist at this point?
17:22:51 <andythenorth> you mean those silly little pictures?
17:22:58 <andythenorth> with the blue crap around them? :P
17:24:44 <andythenorth> writing python is fun. drawing is not fun
17:25:01 * andythenorth is hoping DanMacK returns to do the sprites
17:25:12 <andythenorth> otherwise I'll have to do it :P
17:25:47 <Hirundo> I agree that fun(python) > fun(drawing)
17:26:05 <Hirundo> Which is why I never even bothered to create grfs
17:26:09 <andythenorth> fortunately trucks mostly look similar
17:26:17 <andythenorth> especially at the scale Dan has chosen
17:26:43 * andythenorth ponders writing procedural truck sprite generator
17:26:49 <andythenorth> real trucks are modular too
17:26:58 <andythenorth> bonnet: cab: sleeper: rear chassis: body
17:27:18 <Hirundo> The new zoom levels allow more detail
17:27:26 <andythenorth> I'm ignoring those
17:27:42 * andythenorth is pretending it's 1994 still
17:27:53 * andythenorth likes boxy zoomed in sprites :P
17:29:26 <Hirundo> a 2x2 pixel looks just fine on my laptop, but 4x4 pixels are too much for my brain to twist into an actual truck
17:29:31 <zombi> when i setup bus routes, or train routes.. theyre always profitable to begin with but seem to take a dive and i cant figure out why
17:30:04 <Hirundo> new vehicles get somewhat higher ratings, thus make more money
17:30:06 <zombi> is there something i have to do to keep coal wells production up?
17:30:34 <Hirundo> that's a 10-15% difference or so, it shouldn't 'nose dive' just because of that
17:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> coal well? where liquid coal comes out of the earth?
17:30:59 <zombi> well im just trying to get into the early stages of the game
17:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the general idea is: always have a vehicle loading
17:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as one train leaves with a full load
17:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> have another one arrive
17:32:30 <zombi> that applies to oil wells too?
17:33:18 <zombi> but if i look at my rail station theres not even enough oil to load into my train
17:33:43 <zombi> and it only has one tank
17:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> zombi: that's because when there's no train waiting, your station rating drops
17:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> zombi: with low rating, you get less oil
17:34:31 <zombi> so i assume i can do things like make a train wait for cargo?
17:34:57 <Elukka> ideally there's always a train waiting for cargo
17:35:12 <Elukka> so another train enters a station a little while before the last one leaves
17:35:16 <zombi> ok so i probably needed a double track with two trains i guess
17:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> in the train's schedule, choose "wait for full load"
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17:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> zombi: in the beginning, it will suffice to add another track to the loading station
17:35:46 <zombi> you can do that with buses too?
17:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and signals in front of the platform
17:36:07 <andythenorth> if I added buses to BANDIT, they could be another class
17:36:24 * andythenorth does not want to draw buses
17:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we have enough(tm) bus sets
17:37:02 <andythenorth> anyone got any nml auto-refit code lying around?
17:37:18 <andythenorth> probably I'll allow refit to same class for free
17:37:43 <andythenorth> wonder if that will work
17:38:26 <andythenorth> if I show graphics based on class...will refit be evaluated in same way?
17:39:13 <andythenorth> otherwise I get a refit from PIECE because a cargo is (PIECE, LIQUID), but then the vehicle shows tanker graphics because it finds LIQUID in the class
17:39:20 <andythenorth> which would be...wrong
17:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> use the animation frame to store which one it is?
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17:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never looked up how to set animation frame, actually
17:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or you can use the cargo subtype for that
17:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have Beer (piece) and Beer (liquid)
17:43:50 <andythenorth> subtype is already taken by (num trailers) :)
17:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have more bits :)
17:44:21 * andythenorth points and waves at current inadequate use of subtypes to change consist properties :P
17:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or make the trailers actually different vehicles in the purchase menu. saves lots of magic
17:45:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you mean trucks with fixed type of trailer?
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17:45:52 <andythenorth> e.g. 'tanker truck'
17:45:57 <andythenorth> 'flatbed truck' ?
17:46:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, fixed number of trailers
17:46:24 <andythenorth> [truck] with 1 trailer
17:46:29 <andythenorth> [truck] with 2 trailers
17:47:19 <andythenorth> considered it when designing the set schema
17:47:35 <andythenorth> could work, but potentially lots of buy menu spam
17:47:48 <andythenorth> although it could just be that a truck with 2 trailers just has 2 trailers always
17:47:55 <andythenorth> same amount of vehicles as now
17:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the biggest advantage is autoreplace
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17:48:52 <andythenorth> there is some sense in it, but the choice of trailers adds something to gameplay imo
17:49:30 <andythenorth> wrt to being able to balance capacity and power
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17:55:58 <Rhamphoryncus> Hide join/part works well
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17:56:38 <Prof_Frink> Rhamphoryncus: Good idea.
17:56:48 <Prof_Frink> peter1138: Better idea.
18:03:08 * andythenorth discovers a bug in FISH
18:03:56 <andythenorth> ships only show tanker graphics for cargos where the *only* class is LIQUID
18:04:16 <andythenorth> cargos that set LIQUID and other classes don't get tanker sprites
18:04:36 <andythenorth> the technical solution to this would be a better mask I guess
18:04:53 <andythenorth> but....it shows why relying on classes for graphics is prone to fail
18:08:00 <andythenorth> e.g. milk doesn't get shipped in tanker ships
18:13:57 * andythenorth prepares to eat own dog food
18:14:22 * andythenorth has said more than once 'newgrf authors should prefer labels over classes for graphic support'
18:14:28 <andythenorth> let's see how that tastes :P
18:37:25 <andythenorth> `yexo is there any nml expression similar to cargotable[MILK] or such? To get values for use in switches
18:37:44 <andythenorth> or cargotable.setdefault(MILK, default) might be safer :P
18:38:21 <Yexo> andythenorth: just use MILK
18:38:47 <Yexo> or cargotype("MILK"), although I'm not 100% sure on the name of that function
18:38:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:42:04 <andythenorth> ok just using the label works great
18:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23902 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by Catalan
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 4 changes by Rubidium
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 48 changes by OliTTD
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tamil - 6 changes by aswn
18:45:42 <andythenorth> that's embarassingly easy
18:46:02 <andythenorth> grf authors who use nml have no excuse for using classes if they want cargo-specific graphics :D
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19:17:30 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I don't recognize you.
19:30:15 * andythenorth ponders auto-generated cargo table
19:30:28 <andythenorth> generate it only from known cargos
19:30:47 <andythenorth> kind of the inverse of an idea we had for refitting based only on cargo table :P
19:32:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23903 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#4993]: some instances had issues due to a value being out of range
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19:44:30 * andythenorth ponders trucks with random trailer types for some cargos
19:44:52 <andythenorth> e.g. engineering supplies as lowbed, flatbed, box
19:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd push that feature way down the priority queue
19:47:44 <andythenorth> ss = random.choice('flat', 'lowbed','box')
19:47:56 <andythenorth> it's remarkably trivial to code :P
19:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, just a random_switch
19:48:24 <andythenorth> it's templated in by one line
19:48:34 <andythenorth> I have a dict with ENSP = 'flat'
19:48:39 <andythenorth> I just change the string for a tuple :P
19:49:10 <andythenorth> it would suffer from the downside of being compile time :P
19:49:50 * andythenorth puts that idea on the spike for a bit
19:50:12 * andythenorth is not very good at remembering compile time vs run time
19:50:31 <andythenorth> web apps don't have that distinction
19:50:54 <andythenorth> compile time = page load in a web app
19:50:58 <andythenorth> recompile = refresh :P
19:54:17 <nat_as> since when did you have to be registered to join here?
19:54:22 <nat_as> anyways I have a question
19:54:27 <nat_as> somebody explain this to me
19:54:35 <nat_as> I thought subways were impossible in OTTD
19:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS you'd just write "cargo:(ENSP:random:(1:flat,1:low.1:box))" or something similar
19:54:44 <Rubidium> nat_as: since there were a few hundred spammers trying to join
19:54:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: code generator ftw?
19:55:21 <TrueBrain> nat_as: the impossible only takes a little bit longer
19:55:23 <Rubidium> nat_as: that's someone's personal attempt to introducing that
19:55:38 <nat_as> I found it on a non english form
19:55:43 <nat_as> googling OpenTTD subways
19:55:44 <Rubidium> but there were some issues with it
19:56:09 * andythenorth tries to keep code generation out of templating where possible. Write a compiler...or write templates.
19:56:22 <nat_as> Why does Simutrans have to be so ugly while OpenTTD lacks all the cool features?
19:56:38 <andythenorth> because you have't coded the features or redrawn simutrans yet :D
19:56:51 <nat_as> Open TTD has better construction, and better art, but Simutrans has all the features I want in OpenTTD ARGH
19:56:54 <andythenorth> ach, it's only one switch to generate
19:57:17 <andythenorth> for i in (body types): add switch lines
19:57:45 * andythenorth ponders doing it
19:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could easily copy my Switch classes from tree.py
19:58:52 <nat_as> to make simutrans un-ugly would be as much work as implementing subways in OTTD I think
19:58:57 <Rubidium> nat_as: I guess simutrans misses some cool features that OpenTTD has as well
19:59:03 <nat_as> pretty much every spirte would have to be re-done.
19:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> skip the magic with the parser and the conversion functions
19:59:09 <Rubidium> although most of the time "features" are taken for granted
19:59:28 <nat_as> the cool features from OpenTTD that Simutrans misses are graphics that aren't traced areal photos :V
19:59:33 <Rubidium> people always say that there are barely any new (major) features in OpenTTD releases
19:59:43 <nat_as> it's the worst example of art by commitee
20:00:14 <Rubidium> however, when you let them try a significantly older version they start to notice how much the small features actually matter to gameplay
20:00:16 <nat_as> and it gets even worse in the high rez texture packs.
20:00:32 <nat_as> yeah I will say OpenTTD has gotten a lot better
20:00:45 <nat_as> the ability to load newgrifs IN GAME is awesome
20:01:07 <nat_as> cargo dist is also kind of cool, but it fustrates sometimes
20:01:21 <nat_as> although i think i'd have the same problems only worse in non cargo dist.
20:01:34 <Elukka> i want a cargo destinations patch that has the features of yacd but works as well as cargodist :P
20:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> those are both features that we DON'T have :p
20:01:48 <nat_as> if only there was a way to set a train to transfer some of the cargo and unload some of the cargo
20:02:04 <nat_as> would make delevering food and goods better
20:02:17 <nat_as> because dammit i want to send food and goods to ALL THE TOWNS.
20:02:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: unless he meant configuring NewGRFs from the main menu ;)
20:02:29 <Elukka> it would work that way with cargo destinations, nat
20:02:46 <Elukka> it'd work more sensibly with yacd
20:02:50 <nat_as> but I still have problems with cargo not working
20:02:55 <Rubidium> nat_as: do you use cargodist or yacd?
20:03:37 <nat_as> I did find out the most profitable thing ever is commuter rail.
20:03:45 <Elukka> YACD has cargo that knows where it wants to go regardless of where you have connections
20:03:47 <Rubidium> cargodist distributes cargo to all the (accepting) end points in your own network, yacd gives destinations to all cargo and if you don't go there, the cargo won't be transported
20:03:57 <Elukka> i think the yacd system is much better
20:04:11 <Elukka> but yacd has some serious issues and doesn't seem to be under active development so i guess they won't be fixed
20:04:15 <nat_as> maybe if you could set destinations MANUALY
20:04:39 <nat_as> like you click on the factory, and then click on the destination, and then build a train.
20:04:54 <nat_as> control destinations via the industries or stations?
20:04:57 <Rubidium> Elukka: just come up with the algorithm to make it go smoothly and I guess it'll be active again
20:04:57 <Elukka> i use cargodist since it works
20:05:05 <nat_as> instead of via the vehicles.
20:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what cargodist basically does, only implicitly through your orders
20:05:36 <nat_as> yeah, the problem there is it does things I don't intend it to.
20:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't provide a route, then the cargo won't be routed that way
20:05:50 <Elukka> i have neither the skill or inclination to develop that sort of thing, rubidium
20:05:52 <nat_as> like say I want to distribute food to three stations down a line
20:05:57 <nat_as> all three accept food though
20:06:02 <nat_as> so it all gets dumped at the first.
20:06:17 <nat_as> then it all does not get dumped.
20:06:31 <nat_as> If I could set it to transfer some and dump the rest.
20:07:17 <nat_as> Passengers/mail using a different algorithm completely might also be important.
20:07:33 <nat_as> esp if it could differentiate between commuters, and tourists.
20:08:27 <nat_as> also pay attention to the fact that people usualy want to come back once they get somewhere.
20:08:42 <nat_as> even with cargodist, if you ship people from a big city to a small one
20:08:51 <nat_as> they will all vanish once they get to the small city
20:09:00 <nat_as> and it will come back empty!
20:09:49 <nat_as> OH MY GOD I KNEW AMTRACK WAS SECRETLY HIDING FEMA DEATH CAMPS!
20:11:08 <nat_as> anyways IIRC passingers in simutrans have houses and travel from them to places, and then try to return home.
20:11:32 <nat_as> and factories also have employees who live in nearby towns.
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20:12:58 <Elukka> somehow it manages to do this without melting the cpu, i assume
20:13:01 <Elukka> which is a problem for yacd
20:13:40 <nat_as> Bah, everyone has multi core processors and a billion gigs of ram nowdays.
20:14:04 <Elukka> well, openttd doesn't support that
20:14:08 <Elukka> it doesn't even support graphics cards
20:14:11 <nat_as> If you can get the GPU to do things like pathfinding and shit it's even better.
20:14:28 <Elukka> it should but nobody wants to develop it
20:14:41 <nat_as> I guess the biggest advantage of Simutrans is that it is not tied down to a 20? year old game
20:14:58 <Elukka> so we get a game that doesn't have the resources to do many of the things people would want it to do
20:15:07 <Elukka> like fancy cargo destinations
20:15:38 <michi_cc> A GPU will suck ass big time on pathfinding. Multi-threading would help, but introducing that is close the simply starting over fresh.
20:15:53 <Rubidium> it's not the old game that holds back multithreading/multicore/GPU code, but network play does that
20:16:03 <Chris_Booth> I think you guys should thanks the people that run this project rather than moan about them not doing the things you want
20:16:13 <Rubidium> without network play we don't have to care that everything runs in the same order every time
20:16:14 <Chris_Booth> a small team of people do all of this for nothing
20:16:18 <Elukka> other games certainly support GPUs and multiple cores and multiplayer
20:16:35 <Elukka> i bet it's easier to do in a purely single player game though
20:16:44 <michi_cc> Other games have a ridiculously small game state compared to OpenTTD.
20:16:45 <Rubidium> Elukka: name me one simulation game like OpenTTD that does
20:16:50 <Chris_Booth> Elukka: other games are developed by paid people and made by massive teams
20:17:15 <Chris_Booth> closest thing I can think of is Age of Empiers 3 or AOE Online
20:17:28 <Elukka> what counts as a simulation game?
20:17:30 <Chris_Booth> but they are no where near as complex
20:18:05 <Rubidium> age of empires doesn't have much pathfinding IIRC
20:18:14 <Rubidium> flight sims are mostly drawing stuff
20:18:36 <michi_cc> Chris_Booth: Does that have tree growth on the map?
20:18:56 <nat_as> then again pathfinding algorithms in RTS tend to suck.
20:19:01 <Elukka> almost every game supports GPUs and multiplayer
20:19:11 <Elukka> many games do stuff with multiple cores too
20:19:11 <TrueBrain> every game also supports CPUs
20:19:11 <nat_as> Chris_Booth: don't you know how open source works?
20:19:17 <Rubidium> Elukka: we support GPU as well
20:19:29 <nat_as> it's a constant battle between lazy developers and entitled users.
20:19:35 <Rubidium> just the GPUs don't support us much anymore, but palette animation is/was offloaded to the GPU when they supported it
20:19:38 <Chris_Booth> nat_as: I do, and michi_cc I am sure I said that AOE is no where near as complex
20:19:55 <Elukka> i think generally the way 2D games do it is they have it run on a 3D graphics engine
20:20:16 <TrueBrain> Elukka: depends on which 2D game :) Not possible in a general statement ;)
20:20:22 <TrueBrain> but there are many that do :)
20:20:38 <Rubidium> that makes me remember...
20:20:41 <nat_as> well I like the idea of using GUPs to do other sorts of caluclations, like physics and pathfinding
20:20:50 <Elukka> it's very rare these days that a game doesn't use GPUs for graphics, multiplayer or not
20:20:50 <nat_as> even if they are specalized for other things, they have lots of firepower.
20:20:55 <michi_cc> Elukka: And almost no game uses for example GPU physics for game-play relevant things. The few games using it only do pure eye-candy with it.
20:20:55 <Elukka> they often get used for physics too
20:21:07 <Rubidium> openttd with 32bpp-optimized blitter (no animations) ran at ~800 FPS with less CPU than with opengl at ~60 FPS
20:21:14 <Elukka> i dunno about that, but nearly all of them use them for graphics
20:21:33 <nat_as> in general I think physics and pathfinding are a better use of computer power than eye candy
20:21:37 <michi_cc> Duh, what do you think OpenTTD uses to display graphics?
20:21:48 <Elukka> i thought it was all software rendering on the CPU
20:21:56 <nat_as> games like DF are the best, ASKII art and Fluid mechanics!
20:22:11 <nat_as> (yes this is after I complained about Simutrans' art)
20:22:16 <michi_cc> Bitmaps don't get rendered.
20:22:41 <Elukka> point being the CPU draws the graphics, not the GPU
20:23:21 <nat_as> hey, do oil rigs have heliports on them?
20:23:31 <nat_as> like the way they have docks?
20:23:37 <TrueBrain> what I do wonder; for years now I am reading stories about people saying how OpenTTD _should_ do things, yet none of those ever made a patch showing how it can be done :)
20:23:52 <nat_as> that gives me silly ideas though
20:23:53 <michi_cc> You can make the GPU do the sprite blitting, but it is slower than what the CPU can achive.
20:24:25 <Elukka> surely it's helpful to have this big graphics-dedicated brick in your computer do it than having your cpu do it, though
20:24:26 <nat_as> (would this even be profitable?)
20:24:36 <Elukka> especially since said brick currently does nothing
20:24:38 <TrueBrain> to me it always feels like how people say how politicians should run a coutnry, yet they never contribute in helpnig with that :)
20:25:03 <Rubidium> Elukka: you read my comment about the opengl blitter (= GPU) being slower than the 32bpp-optimized blitter (=CPU)?
20:25:06 <nat_as> free softwhere is a constant battle between lazy devs and entitled users.
20:25:13 <TrueBrain> nat_as: I take offense to that
20:25:15 <michi_cc> Is it really helpful to let the GPU do something of the game runs slower as a result?
20:25:18 <TrueBrain> the second time more than the first time
20:25:27 <nat_as> users want shit for free, and devs work for free.
20:25:37 <TrueBrain> it is silly to consider any of us lazy
20:25:40 <TrueBrain> in fact, it is rude
20:25:48 <TrueBrain> and it is unrelated to free software
20:25:52 <TrueBrain> people always moan about Microsoft too
20:25:57 <TrueBrain> yet you pay top dollars for it
20:26:30 <TrueBrain> so I do not appreciate it that you call all of us devs
20:26:34 <TrueBrain> it doesnt help, nor contribute
20:26:39 <Elukka> rubidium: but surely it's not taking any cpu cycles away from an already overloaded cpu?
20:26:40 <TrueBrain> (like moaning about how politicians run a country)
20:26:42 <Elukka> when it's ran on the gpu
20:26:58 <TrueBrain> +lazy, how did that word drop off :D
20:27:20 * andythenorth like, writes some code and stuff
20:27:31 <nat_as> in general though the people who want the most can't or wont do it themselves, and the people who can have less initiative to do so.
20:27:44 <TrueBrain> yet everyone knows how to tell us how to do it
20:27:58 <TrueBrain> it is just funny to me; and this is the story for years already
20:28:11 <Elukka> i sometimes draw things, but i don't tell people who don't draw who criticize it to do it better themselves
20:28:13 <TrueBrain> "you should have multicore support!!" - " how?" - "No, YOU SHOULD HAVE IT"
20:28:20 <TrueBrain> it is like this buzz word, if you dont use it, you suck
20:28:24 <andythenorth> is it actually desirable to randomise truck trailer graphics?
20:28:26 <Elukka> i consider the criticism and then might follow it if it sounds good
20:28:38 <andythenorth> would it be better if all trucks for cargo x had same trailer type
20:28:41 <nat_as> I did some art for simutrans but don't have the time to re-sprite a whole game (won't), and I don't understand programing enough to add features to OTTD (can't)
20:28:45 <nat_as> so I complain instead.
20:29:02 <TrueBrain> Elukka: there is a huge difference between criticizing, or giving positive feedback, and moaning over and over that something is not being used :)
20:29:21 <TrueBrain> nat_as: that, that is a fact; people love to complain :)
20:29:24 <TrueBrain> it is easier I guess
20:29:30 * andythenorth discovers the /ignore command
20:29:40 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you should ask Rubidium for a list :)
20:29:52 <Rubidium> Elukka: it actually does as for GL is needs to update the WHOLE visible state, whereas the software blitter only does a small piece
20:29:56 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I don't think it will work, I'm probably on it :P
20:30:05 <Rubidium> i.e. the piece that needs changing
20:30:32 <nat_as> Publicly announcing your use of the /ignore command is a bitch move but whatever.
20:30:42 <TrueBrain> I think we should start a topic about: common suggested failures :)
20:30:56 <Elukka> i don't know how specific implementations work, but sometimes it may be useful to look at how other games do things
20:31:07 <Rubidium> as a consequence it needs to determine the sprite order for the whole screen each and every drawing, which takes time. You can't offload that easily to the GPU because of the way perspective hacks are used
20:31:22 <nat_as> Anyways, TTD is an 18 year old game. It was not meant for features like Multi-Core support, advanced cargo handling, or layered maps.
20:31:23 <Alberth> andythenorth: I just don't bother reading the backlog :p
20:31:32 <TrueBrain> nat_as: unrelated :)
20:31:32 <Rubidium> and here I'm "gathering" knowledge of the 3+ attempts of an OpenGL blitter for OpenTTD
20:31:35 <TrueBrain> but that was already said :)
20:31:37 <nat_as> It does however have the advantage of an established art style and interface
20:31:43 <TrueBrain> the TT is 18 years old, doesnt make OpenTTD 18 years old :)
20:31:50 <Rubidium> nat_as: yet it has IPv6 support
20:31:53 <andythenorth> anybody care about truck trailers? not that I take requests, but I do listen to opinion
20:32:14 <TrueBrain> nat_as: OpenTTD uses many modern techniques, I guess you would be surprised
20:32:14 <michi_cc> Microsoft made $6.624 billion profit last quarter; give me 0.06% of that and you can have a full time OpenTTD developer :p (The resulting amount is what reliable xkcd lists as amount to comfortably live off :)
20:32:56 <Rubidium> simutrans apparantly doesn't even offer that out-of-the-box in their binaries
20:33:02 <nat_as> Simutrans on the other hand is a new game, it has the advantage of being a blank slate which is easy to add new things to. However it's art team is a million ideas about what the game should look like and it's interface was clearly made by programers not game designers.
20:33:13 <Rubidium> although I have to agree, my DOS binary does not support IPv6 either :(
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20:33:19 <nat_as> Simutrans does not have multiplayer at all.
20:33:19 <andythenorth> @calc 6.624 * 0.06
20:33:19 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.39744
20:33:37 <michi_cc> andythenorth: You've missed two 0's
20:33:50 <andythenorth> I missed 9 on the other end though
20:33:50 <Alberth> looks very comfortable :)
20:33:57 <nat_as> although I don't care about multiplay as much as having a nice trainset where cargo goes places perfectly.
20:34:06 <andythenorth> it's enough either way
20:34:12 <michi_cc> It's only about 4 million :)
20:34:39 <nat_as> andythenorth: I care about tuck trailers
20:34:57 <nat_as> andythenorth: are you talking about making trucks work like trains? because that would be cool
20:35:07 <andythenorth> enough for at least one mac
20:35:14 <andythenorth> you can work on the os x bugs
20:35:55 <TrueBrain> some OSX bugs ... you need hardware for that more than software :)
20:36:08 <TrueBrain> on that specific CPU with that specific OSX version, it doesnt work
20:36:48 <andythenorth> but several macs
20:36:55 <andythenorth> for 4 million you get at least 3
20:37:07 <TrueBrain> I wonder if it is solvable in the software tbh; some issues are odd at best :)
20:37:15 <TrueBrain> there is a reason OSX runs in 32bpp for years :P
20:37:23 <TrueBrain> the 8bpp issues were odd .... to say the least :D
20:37:42 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you mean the GPU acceleration not working? ;)
20:38:09 <TrueBrain> it worked in some instances ... and not in some others :P
20:38:34 <glx> <TrueBrain> it is like this buzz word, if you dont use it, you suck <-- we use it, so it's ok ;)
20:38:45 * andythenorth needs to learn about random_switch
20:38:56 * andythenorth ventures into CETS
20:39:08 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: take with you this torch and diamand pickaxe
20:39:16 <Rubidium> also... on windows we use irectx. That means that the graphics are offloaded to the GPU, right?
20:39:22 <andythenorth> there is a CETS here
20:39:34 <TrueBrain> thought we used GDI :)
20:39:52 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: why else would we need directx sdk headers? ;)
20:40:25 <Rubidium> yes, so it works on lots of versions of Windows
20:40:28 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: dsound? :)
20:40:56 <glx> midi is deprecated anyway
20:41:11 <TrueBrain> (OpenDUNE issues, arghhhh)
20:41:15 * andythenorth fails to understand random_switch
20:41:21 <nat_as> what are we talking about now?
20:41:24 <Rubidium> also... GDI is hardware accelerated in Windows 7
20:41:31 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that it is :)
20:41:34 <glx> TrueBrain: opendune issues are not because midi but because timers ;)
20:41:38 <TrueBrain> Areo or what is the name :P
20:42:05 <glx> no alsa on windows but still random freezes
20:42:09 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it blits a 2D frame on a 3D object, a bit what Elukka meant 2D games do :P
20:42:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why do so many of your random_switches return results for 1 twice?
20:42:18 <glx> but I agree it's worse with ALSA
20:42:36 <Rubidium> so he should just get a newer version of Windows and he magically gets hardware acceleration for drawing stuff
20:42:53 <TrueBrain> the abuse of terms and their meaning
20:43:03 <TrueBrain> reminds me of the Windows commercial for .. Windows ME I think?
20:43:10 <TrueBrain> or was it Intel with their Dual core?
20:43:23 <TrueBrain> well, the commercial was: "now with 2 cores, you can browse the internet AND check your email AT THE SAME TIME"
20:43:28 <TrueBrain> still no clue how you could do that
20:43:44 <TrueBrain> I tried typing with 2 hands on 2 keyboards, but I kinda fail processing that information
20:43:56 <glx> Windows ME or how to use the worst part of win9x and win2000 ;)
20:44:04 <TrueBrain> but besides that; their claim was that before multicores you didn't have threading
20:44:07 * andythenorth scratches head at random_switches
20:44:15 <andythenorth> I never understood random in nfo either
20:44:20 <andythenorth> where's the fricking range? :P
20:45:21 <TrueBrain> I guess commercials like that make people think multicore support is the mekka for performance related issues :)
20:45:23 <glx> andythenorth: it's probably just an random 32bit number
20:46:10 <glx> and you define the range yourself using shifts and mask
20:47:18 <andythenorth> can you paste it somewhere?
20:47:24 <nat_as> I like how everyone tells you to buy more ram, but the one time I did, my computer was still slow.
20:47:29 <nat_as> because it had a shitty CUP
20:47:46 <andythenorth> so the value is the probability. ok
20:47:57 <TrueBrain> didnt know cup-size mattered for computers; I know it does for females :D
20:48:06 <andythenorth> with 8 bits, how much range do I get?
20:48:30 <Rubidium> andythenorth: what do you think yourself?
20:48:48 <nat_as> CPU stupid fingers disobeying me.
20:48:51 <andythenorth> I remember they had to be powers of two or something unexpected
20:49:00 <glx> just try to see how big a 8bit value can be
20:49:16 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
20:49:30 <Rubidium> I got a quad core + 4GB at work and it's still dead slow
20:49:47 <Rubidium> it just got a ginormously slow disk
20:50:01 <nat_as> everyone ignores my joke
20:50:18 <Rubidium> be happy it's your joke
20:50:36 <Alberth> Rubidium: you need (much) more RAM :p
20:51:05 <andythenorth> nml docs imply that 8 bits = probability range 11
20:51:14 <nat_as> 4gb is enough for almost everything that's not like graphics work.
20:51:19 <Rubidium> Alberth: doesn't help much, it's still slow at boot and everything I start for the first time
20:51:20 <TrueBrain> pff, we need more RAM in the server .. ffs :P
20:51:34 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: ever tried SSD? It seriously is awesome :D
20:51:39 <TrueBrain> I even boot Windows in 8 seconds
20:51:43 <nat_as> yeah SSDs are what we need.
20:51:58 <Alberth> Rubidium: why would you even want to turn off your system???
20:52:01 <michi_cc> andythenorth: No, the doc page says that you define a probability range and nml will figure out how many of the random bits it has to use for it.
20:52:02 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: suggested it, but $boss doesn't "bite"
20:52:06 <nat_as> the biggest bottleneck right now is HD speed not memory
20:52:17 <nat_as> memory was the issue in the 2000s because of XP and vista
20:52:18 <TrueBrain> nat_as: lol; such a general statement is false by default
20:52:50 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: SSDs are relative cheap, now WDs factory is offline :P
20:52:54 <nat_as> it's true for most "why is my computer so slow" questions.
20:52:56 <Rubidium> Alberth: because I take it home so I can do some troubleshooting if that needs to be done at home instead of rushing to work ;)
20:52:57 <michi_cc> andythenorth: And it uses the "dependent" and "independent" statements to figure out if some bits may be used for more than one random_switch.
20:53:16 <nat_as> in the 2000s it was usually XP and vista hogging ram
20:53:30 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I am blind to the section on range :o
20:53:43 <Yexo> andythenorth: why do you expect a range?
20:53:48 <Yexo> there is no range in a random_switch
20:53:49 <nat_as> but IIRC 7 uses as much as XP did, but the average computer has more than 4x as much ram by default as it did in the 2000s
20:53:50 <Rubidium> Alberth: and the ram would "only" help if it's far into the three digits of GBs
20:54:01 <Yexo> just a list of "probability: result;" pairs
20:54:08 <michi_cc> 6 + 3 + 2 == 11, there's your range.
20:54:10 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: 1024GB :D:D
20:54:16 <andythenorth> so for 8 bit, range is 11?
20:54:31 <Alberth> Rubidium: can't use the power cable they so conveniently put overhead of where you travel? bummer
20:54:43 <michi_cc> No, the range is 11 because the author of the example used 6, 3 and 2.
20:54:54 <Yexo> andythenorth: again, what do you mean with range?
20:55:08 <Yexo> the maximum sum of probabilities is 2^(num_bits)
20:55:13 <Yexo> so 256 if you have 8 bits
20:55:14 <Rubidium> Alberth: if I leave it on my backpack gets too hot
20:55:31 <Yexo> if you use less nml will scale your given probabilities to the closest higher factor of 2
20:55:50 <michi_cc> 11 would be rounded up to the next power of two, which is 16 for which you need 4 bits.
20:55:53 <Yexo> so the 6/11 chance in the example will be scaled to x/16
20:55:55 <andythenorth> the so probabilities are like industry probability property
20:56:16 <andythenorth> they're relative
20:56:32 <andythenorth> so eddi's 1 and 1 are 50:50
20:56:37 <Yexo> if you use a random_switch in anything other than for graphics output (ie in a callback), the triggers will most likely not work
20:56:46 <andythenorth> that's ok - it's graphics
20:57:39 <Hirundo> you'll need a random_trigger cb for that, but the process is very convoluted and ill-documented (even more in nfo)
20:57:45 * andythenorth grew up doing "random_quiz_question = list[math.floor(list.len() * math.random()]) "
20:57:55 <andythenorth> so /me is used to thinking about ranges :)
20:58:18 <Rubidium> I hope math.random never returns 1 ;)
20:58:51 <andythenorth> I guess flash guards against that :P
20:58:57 <andythenorth> but I wouldn't put money on it
20:59:06 <Yexo> it's usually designed to never return 1
20:59:34 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but wouldn't random_quiz_question = random.choice(list) be better?
21:00:34 <andythenorth> it would if flash came with a python interpreter
21:00:57 <TrueBrain> Yexo: only usually? :D
21:01:10 <TrueBrain> aren't they considered broken if they do? :D
21:01:25 <andythenorth> someone actually made a python -> actionscript compiler a few years ago
21:01:25 <andythenorth> it's kind of helpful to do array.pop() as well when writing quizes :P
21:01:47 <Yexo> making statements like that too general is dangerous. someone is bound to have deisnged a random() function that returns values between 0 and <2 or something like that :p
21:02:17 <TrueBrain> Yexo: hehehe :D Fair point :)
21:02:20 <andythenorth> the nml docs are mostly awesome, but the random page bamboozled me
21:02:28 <TrueBrain> I once had one that did not return 0, but did return 1; gives very .. unusual results
21:02:33 <andythenorth> I could try and 'improve' the page
21:02:34 <TrueBrain> easy solution of course was doing 1 - random()
21:02:43 <Yexo> was about to say that ^^
21:02:45 <andythenorth> but probably not wise as I have yet to write a random_switch that works
21:02:47 <Yexo> but quite unexpected indeed
21:02:58 <TrueBrain> takes a few crashes
21:03:40 <Yexo> andythenorth: I'd say the page is fine as technical spec, but it could do with a tutorial with a more in-depth explenation
21:05:52 <andythenorth> it wouldn't take much
21:06:07 <andythenorth> just a clarification of how 'probability' is used in this context
21:06:30 <andythenorth> "probabilities are relative" might be enough of a cluestick
21:07:24 <andythenorth> with maybe an example of how to do a 50:50 and another example
21:08:30 <Yexo> why does that need clarification? What else than releative can the probabilities be?
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21:16:10 <andythenorth> grr - stupid wifi
21:16:36 <andythenorth> Yexo: in retrospect, yes it should have been obvious probabilities are relative.
21:16:45 <andythenorth> probability confuses a lot of people, me included though
21:21:33 <zombi> can you tell buses to wait until theyre full before they set off?
21:22:16 <Yexo> zombi: use full load orders
21:22:18 <zombi> just wondering how i can make decent money using buses
21:22:20 <andythenorth> if a tuple only has one item (string), a python iterator will iterate over the string instead
21:22:31 <andythenorth> that's unwanted in this case :O
21:22:39 <zombi> for a while.. and then the number of passengers plumets
21:22:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: ("abc") is not a tuple, ("abc",) is
21:23:12 <andythenorth> that was my solution, glad it's valid
21:23:26 <Alberth> the former is just an expression in parentheses :p
21:23:26 <andythenorth> so the , is significant
21:23:41 <andythenorth> does same apply to lists?
21:24:07 <andythenorth> this is only a tuple because I never intend to write to it. Does that gain anything?
21:24:11 <andythenorth> it could also be a set
21:24:15 <Alberth> andythenorth: [..] cannot be confused for parenthesized expressions :)
21:24:17 <andythenorth> items should be unique
21:24:58 <andythenorth> I don't use tuples much; have never used a set before
21:25:22 <Alberth> python 3 has nicer syntax iirc
21:26:05 <Hirundo> set is basically a dictonary without values, i.e. an unordered set of keys only
21:26:56 <andythenorth> I don't gain much from sets
21:27:16 <andythenorth> duplicate entries in this case are non-showstopping
21:27:43 <andythenorth> will nml care if a random_switch has the same return value more than once?
21:28:00 <andythenorth> potato / potato in this case I think ;)
21:28:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: I'd doubt it
21:28:11 <Hirundo> ^^ I recall more than 1 NML bug wrt lost order
21:28:22 <Yexo> andythenorth: no, nml will not care
21:28:25 <andythenorth> actually, an item in the list more than once is probably a convenient hack on probabilities
21:28:39 <andythenorth> as the code generator makes all of them 1
21:28:39 <Yexo> if you do "1: return a; 1: return a; 1: return b;" the value a will be returned twice as often as b
21:28:48 <andythenorth> that's possibly useful
21:29:03 <Yexo> it's the same as "2: return a; 1: return b;"
21:29:15 <andythenorth> someone else should code a set this way
21:29:18 <Yexo> there might be differences when the sum of probabilities is not a power of 2
21:29:26 <andythenorth> I believe BROS has lots of sprites and little progress :P
21:30:20 * andythenorth might convert some other sets to this method
21:30:26 <Alberth> I am somewhat tempted to make a long vehicle set (that is, normal vehicles with a long model life time)
21:31:07 <andythenorth> reusing base set graphics?
21:31:34 <Alberth> probably, as the best I can draw are cube-ish vehicles :p
21:31:42 <Yexo> Alberth: perhaps that could be an option for opengfx+trains / opengfx+rv?
21:32:29 <Alberth> would the authors fall for such a feature request? :p
21:32:45 <Alberth> Mostly, I consider it an experiment to see how that works out
21:32:53 <Yexo> perhaps, I'm not one of them :p
21:33:31 <andythenorth> my cunning plan has a flaw
21:33:38 <andythenorth> I have 1 zillion unreferenced switches
21:33:46 <andythenorth> can I suppress that warning ?
21:33:54 <andythenorth> locally to just part of code?
21:36:39 <andythenorth> so for some cargos, trucks now show body / trailer type at random from a list
21:36:47 <andythenorth> what should the re-random trigger be?
21:37:20 <andythenorth> currently it's never
21:37:38 * andythenorth is not sure this is wise anyway
21:37:46 <andythenorth> maybe a parameter should be offered
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21:38:42 <andythenorth> maybe it's best used for small variations not large ones
21:38:55 <andythenorth> like 'large machinery load' or 'small machinery load'
21:39:04 <andythenorth> rather than 'box truck' or 'flat bed'
21:39:26 <LordAro> ^ DorpsGek spaming :)
21:45:15 <Alberth> the number of lines by one 'LordAro' is larger :p
21:46:19 <LordAro> not sure i understand the previous comment though - a reference to the fact that i wrote most of the patch myself this time?
21:46:54 <andythenorth> a reference to DorpsGek being quiet relative to certain others :)
21:47:14 <andythenorth> is a solar flare expected tonight? It was a good day's work, I would be sad to lose it :)
21:47:51 <michi_cc> LordAro: You should move as much of TextfileWindow as possible into the .cpp.
21:47:58 <LordAro> my comment was more "^ using DorpsGek to spam" but yes, i understand noaw :)
21:48:18 <Hirundo> andythenorth: `Do you want me to hg clone the bandit repo as a backup?
21:48:23 <andythenorth> LordAro: did I mention: readme in game \o/
21:48:32 <andythenorth> Hirundo: is your backup EMP shielded?
21:48:39 <zombi> what affects the rating of a bus station?
21:49:08 <andythenorth> keeping a few hundred lines of python is obviously my main concern when faced with the breakdown of the electrical grid and most electronic devices :P
21:49:36 <Alberth> zombi: look for 'game mechanics' at the wiki
21:49:44 <Hirundo> then print it (you know, with paper and ink)
21:49:46 <andythenorth> Hirundo: that would be kind :)
21:49:49 <LordAro> andythenorth: naturally, i am just as concerned about my patch :)
21:49:54 <andythenorth> you can skip the printing step
21:50:31 <Rhamphoryncus> ink fades, paper breaks down. Use engraved aluminium plates.
21:50:32 <Hirundo> andythenorth: and obviously, my 1'' thick laptop is about as effective as a sheet of paper against a strong EMP
21:50:43 <andythenorth> put it in a foil hat, should be ok
21:51:03 <Hirundo> ever heard of 'usability'?
21:51:19 * andythenorth has occasional irrational paranoias
21:51:25 <andythenorth> last year it was a celestial EMP
21:51:29 <andythenorth> this year...who knows
21:51:31 <Hirundo> laptops with tin foil around them tend to be not that useful
21:52:00 <Hirundo> heads with tin foil around them neither, FWIW
21:52:08 <andythenorth> put the foil around the building
21:52:15 <andythenorth> you need to do something with earth too I think
21:52:31 <Alberth> Hirundo: as storage device against solar flames they may work quite well :p
21:52:49 <andythenorth> Hirundo: more interesting would be whether BANDIT builds for you :)
21:53:23 <Hirundo> andythenorth: that'd require starting my VM, which means ... work :-(
21:53:32 <andythenorth> other than the usual nml stuff
21:53:48 <andythenorth> but if you're busy - don't worry
21:55:26 <andythenorth> easy_install Chameleon
21:57:59 <andythenorth> Yexo: wrt random_switch, it's my eyes that need upgrading, not the page
21:57:59 <andythenorth> it does explain relative probability and sum
22:00:44 <Hirundo> andythenorth: Compilation seems to work, i won't test but it produces a .grf
22:01:09 <andythenorth> easy_install lives up to its name today :)
22:01:24 <andythenorth> Hirundo: do you know what python version you have?
22:01:33 <Hirundo> actually I installed via debian first before reading your comment, but that didn't work
22:01:41 <Hirundo> uninstalling and reinstalling via easy_install did
22:07:43 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:09:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:10:23 <LordAro> (actually, just don't ask)
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23:03:28 <welshdragon> it's so hard to kill established companies in OpenTTD
23:04:14 *** Phoenix_the_II has quit IRC
23:31:11 <welshdragon> i want to merge companies
23:35:33 <zombi> how do you deliver wood from a sawmill to houses?
23:35:50 <zombi> the supply chain thing says you do
23:35:55 <planetmaker> you deliver goods from saw mill to houses
23:36:56 <zombi> but how do i link up the sawmill to deliver the goods?
23:37:59 <planetmaker> some houses accept goods
23:38:07 <planetmaker> check the station whether it accepts goods
23:38:20 <planetmaker> small villages might not have sufficient houses for that
23:38:49 <zombi> if i use the question mark thing on the houses...
23:39:20 <planetmaker> yes. And a station needs a total of >= 8/8 over all houses in its influence area
23:39:41 <planetmaker> thus 3 of those houses or so
23:39:58 <planetmaker> with less acceptance, it doesn't accept goods
23:42:48 <zombi> so what building do you need to put down to deliver the goods to the homes?
23:51:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh. Nice. Openttd blew up because I used a long hg branch name.
23:51:49 <planetmaker> the versio nstring is limited to... 18(?) characters
23:52:43 <planetmaker> anyway, good night
23:53:09 <Rhamphoryncus> But is that something important, like part of the network protocol?
23:58:00 <Rhamphoryncus> It's 15 characters, including a \0. The first 10 are taken up by the hg revision number, then I had a dash, then I get 3 more
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